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AtomicKitKat
2005-12-21, 04:29 AM
So I've been tossing this around my head for a few days now, and re-re-reading the feat descriptions over and over again. Unfortunately, the example of a dragon doesn't help when talking about monsters with 3 or more of the same limb attacks.

RAW, you could wind up with as many as 4 bonus attacks per hand(or tentacle, or what have you), depending on how you interprete "pair".

2 hands=AB(1 pair)
3 hands=AB, AC, BC(3 pairs)

and so on, adding the previous number to the number of possible pairings(that is, 6 pairs for 4 hands, 10 for 5 hands, etc.)

Granted, we all know that this feat is semi-broken as it is(mostly because it breaks the whole "natural weapons get no iterations" rule), but as shown above, it gets patently ridiculous(even if we go by "each individual attack can get no more than 4 bonus iterations).

Just curious to see what others thought about it. ;D

squishycube
2005-12-21, 06:11 AM
You got me a bit off guard, could you tell me where to find these feats?

AtomicKitKat
2005-12-21, 07:08 AM
Draconomicon. A quick Google search for Improved Rapidstrike will also turn up the reqs, and the effects of both feats.

Thomas
2005-12-21, 04:37 PM
It does actually say "three or more limbs", too. It's just an extra attack (or several extra attacks) for the whole set.

So you might go from...

3 slams +16 melee (BAB +11)

... to...

slam +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1

Edit:

To back this up some; they're not talking about actual pairs of limbs, they're talking about your attacks. A draegloth has two pairs of hands, but only one pair of attacks (2 claws). There's two different kinds of logic here - real (pairs of hands) and game (paired attacks). Game logic applies.

AtomicKitKat
2005-12-21, 05:22 PM
Thomas: I'm well aware of that. I understand thir definition of "hands" works in the same way as for Multi-attack. What I'm interested in is their definition of "pairs". ;D

Thomas
2005-12-21, 06:14 PM
Like I said, the pairs/groups in the attacks-part of the statistics block.

AtomicKitKat
2005-12-21, 07:04 PM
I think you're not getting my point.

You have 4 attacking limbs, A, B, C & D.

1st pair: AB
2nd pair: AC
3rd: AD
4th: BC
5th: BD
6th: CD

The feat description says it can be taken once for every "pair" of attacks you have. :P However, they provided a creature(dragon) with only two pairs of different weapons. What I'm interested in is how it applies to a creature with MORE than 2 of a single type of weapon. ;D

Azrael
2005-12-21, 07:29 PM
Its plenty clear (you said it yourself to start off with) that it is not meant to allow the AB, AC, BC type pairings. *Sure, you can find loopholes in the actual words, but not in the intent.

EDIT: To clarify, a creature with 3 claws and +15BAB could gain a third attack (+15/+15/+15/+10) from Rapid and another two from Improved (+15/+15/+15/+11/+6/+1) <== Note the -4 in there.

(There should be clarification that Improved does not stack with Rapid or that you don't get more attacks than normal BAB progression would allow)

AtomicKitKat
2005-12-21, 09:43 PM
Ok, so essentially, it allows up to 4 bonus attacks for every 2 base(effectively tripling), correct? Ie, 4 limbs(let's say as an example it's a mutant dragon with 21 HD and 4 claws in front, remembering that dragons gain BAB as fighters, and that BAB from racial HD don't have epic limitations, or something like that.):

A: 21/16/11/6/1
B: 21
C: 21/16/11/6/1
D: 21

Like I said, they only gave 2 pairs of different weapons, rather than 4 of one type, in their example, which allows for the weirdness I mentioned.

Thomas
2005-12-22, 04:13 AM
No, like I posted, you get additional attacks for each attack listed on your attack block. The physical limbs of the creature have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Examples; Improved Rapidstrike (claws), BAB +16:

2 claws +16 melee -> claw +16/+16/+11/+6/+1
3 claws +16 melee -> claw +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1
4 claws +16 melee -> claw +16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1
5 claws +16 melee -> claw +16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1

etc.

You get the same number of ADDITIONAL attacks, no matter what the amount of limbs. It may not have an explicit example in Draconomicon to cover it, but it's the obvious, balanced (possibly), and reasonable interpretation of the feat.

Again, the number of limbs on the creature makes absolutely no difference. You look at the line in the stat block for attacks, and work from there. There's no need to think about "limb pairings." No creature has several attacks of the same type (i.e., no creature has "2 claws +16 melee, 2 claws +11 melee").


Edit:

The only way it would work like in your example would be to take it twice. For example, a dragon has two paired attacks (2 claws and 2 wings). With Rapidstrike (claws) and Rapidstrike (wings), it gets additional attacks with both, calculated individually, as in my above example for 2 claws.

AtomicKitKat
2005-12-22, 09:32 PM
The only way it would work like in your example would be to take it twice. For example, a dragon has two paired attacks (2 claws and 2 wings). With Rapidstrike (claws) and Rapidstrike (wings), it gets additional attacks with both, calculated individually, as in my above example for 2 claws.

Nod, that's what I meant. It should be possible to take it twice if you have 4 claws/tentacle slams/whatever Natural Attack, but if one plays fast and loose with their interpretation of pairs, you'd wind up with the example in my first post. :)

Azrael
2005-12-23, 04:45 PM
If the monster description said "4 Claws +15" then that is the end of it, no funny pairings allowed. *Rules lawyer all you want about the wording of the feat, but it still says "4 Claws" not "2 pairs of claws"

Come to think of it, if something did have a "2 pairs of claws" you STILL couldn't have funny combo pairs, but you could take the feat progression for both pairs -- no different that if it were 2 claws and 2 wings.

EDIT: cold fingers != good typing