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View Full Version : 3.5ed Wizard vs. Fighter!! A challenge to PairO'DiceLost and any other takers!!!



Chokuto
2009-07-05, 10:08 PM
Okay, a contining argument/friendly discussion between me and a few other homebrew board regulars. Are wizards inherently better than fighters? I don't think so, but there are some compelling arguments to the contrary.

A little recap:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos
Short Introduction
Most people can see that dungeons and dragons isnít at all like rock-paper-scissors. There arenít established categories that beat each other beyond the simple distinction that full casters beat everyone else.

emphasis added.

Why does EVERYONE on these boards say this! It's not true! Lets say a 20 lvl wizard has a HP score of 150, which is being generous since I gave him 16 con and Improved Toughness as a feat, which I've never seen a wizard grab, and an AC of 25, A 20 lvl GNOME fighter TWF, will gain 7 attacks in a full attack, and lets say he's wielding +3 longswords instead of bastard swords or Dwarven waraxes, his total accuracy to hit is +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 and dealing a AVERAGE (assuming he rolled a 3 on his d6's) of 20 damage a hit. The first 2 attacks are going to hit unless he rolls a nat 1, so there a given, the next two have a 70% chance to hit, and the next two (although iffy) have a 45% and last one we'll assume is going to whiff. Thats a high probabilty for at LEAST 80 damage a turn, and possibly 120. Whereas this same Gnome fighter is likely to have a HP score of around 320 without HP boosting feats. Sure, the wizard can dish out 120 MAX a turn (Not use non-core spells and feats, etc.) but unless he casts defensively the fighter gets an AoO not to mention if the Fighter is ready actions to disrupt spell casting, in which case the wizard runs a risk of losing his spell and wasting his turn. I'm not arguing that Wizards are weaker than fighters but the reverse isn't true either, I find the core classes fairly well balanced (assuming you take roleplaying into account) and I'm tired of these "accepted assumptions" that certain classes are inherently fail. I understand if a core class doesn't do what you want it to do so you tweak it, but not all monks should get full BAB nor should Fighters get abilities every level as well as feats... ugh..

Sorry about my rant, it kinda got off topic. I actually like what you've done here, kinda like a different take on the Occult Slayer.

That's my silver piece.


The adequate response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chokuto
emphasis added.

Why does EVERYONE on these boards say this! It's not true!

It is indeed. Here's why:


Quote:
Lets say a 20 lvl wizard has a HP score of 150, which is being generous since I gave him 16 con and Improved Toughness as a feat, which I've never seen a wizard grab,

Assuming he has not polymorphed into a form with improved Con or has not cast one of the many spells granting increased HP.


Quote:
and an AC of 25,

Assuming he has not polymorphed into a form with natural armor or has not cast one of the many spells granting increased AC.


Quote:
A 20 lvl GNOME fighter TWF, will gain 7 attacks in a full attack, and lets say he's wielding +3 longswords instead of bastard swords or Dwarven waraxes, his total accuracy to hit is +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 and dealing a AVERAGE (assuming he rolled a 3 on his d6's) of 20 damage a hit.

Assuming he has not polymorphed into a form with DR or cast one of the many spells granting DR.


Quote:
The first 2 attacks are going to hit unless he rolls a nat 1, so there a given,

Assuming he does not have any form of concealment (blur), any form of miss chance (blink), or any contingency to avoid the attacks (contingent teleport).


Quote:
Sure, the wizard can dish out 120 MAX a turn (Not use non-core spells and feats, etc.)

Assuming he bothers with actual damage, instead of a save-or-suck spell. (And by the way, maximized disintegrate is a fairly straightforward 240 damage.)


Quote:
but unless he casts defensively

...which he will, because he will have 23 ranks in Concentration and thus automatically make the DC 24 check...


Quote:
the fighter gets an AoO not to mention if the Fighter is ready actions to disrupt spell casting, in which case the wizard runs a risk of losing his spell and wasting his turn.

Assuming the fighter can actually (A) get to the wizard and (B) hit the wizard.


Quote:
I'm not arguing that Wizards are weaker than fighters but the reverse isn't true either, I find the core classes fairly well balanced (assuming you take roleplaying into account)

Roleplaying is not a source of mechanical balance. You cannot judge whether the wizard or fighter is better mechanically based on roleplaying considerations. Were that the case, you could simply roleplay a pacifist wizard who never wants to hurt someone and the wizard loses by default.


Quote:
and I'm tired of these "accepted assumptions" that certain classes are inherently fail.

They are accepted because they have been mathematically verified with statistical analysis and CharOp tests.

If you go into it assuming that a fighter is standing next to an unbuffed, unprepared wizard and gets to act first, then of course the fighter's going to appear better, but I guarantee you that that will never happen. You need to consider all of the abilities of both classes. And before you say "But the wizard won't have all those spells prepared..." he can easily cover all of those bases with 2-4 spell slots, each of which can be filled with a multitude of spells that achieve the desired result, so there is no One True Spell Selection needed.


More compelling arguments against my standpoint:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chokuto
emphasis added.
<Snip>

Because a Wizard can simply cast the following two spells and render himself completely invulnerable to the fighter's entire schtick.

Fly
Solid Fog

The wizard is now 50ft straight up and arrows can't hit him through the fog. Ever.
Then there's the benefit of concealment, even if you could hit the Wizard, you can't see him. The fact that almost every single one of his spells can hit you outside of the first four range increments of almost every ranged weapon.
Or he can simply charm you when your sleepy, take the first watch, and then CDG you with a scythe. 2d4 averages out to roughly 5 damage, which four times over gives us a fort save versus death equal to 30, at level one, with a 10 strength. At higher levels when the wizard has a magic weapon, Enlarge Person and Bulls strength on hand (say level 5) he can easily force a save of DC 58.

If you play D&D as it was originally played, a fighter could reasonably kill a wizard, even a powerful one. You play the wizard as his intelligence dictates, then the fighter is just there to look menacing and clean up after you. Like a well armored butler.


Compelling points of view, and some points are hard to ignore, here is my friendly rebuttal:

In response to the Wizard using polymorph to increase stats and AC, I hadn't taken that into consideration. Not that I nesscerarily forgot about polymorph, but it just doesn't get used often at my gaming table. Quick question.. Can a Wizard cast spells while polymorphed? I know a Druid can't unless he takes Natural spell, and I always assumed divine spells were simpler to cast than Arcane, (since there is no Divine spell failure for armor), so wouldn't a Wizard that polymorphed into to something very alien to his natural form be unable to cast spells? The SRD didn't say one way or the other, so maybe that's up to the DM.

Roleplaying IS a source of mechanical balance, but I feel I didn't explain myself properly. Take Bard. Many think of it as a Sub-optimal class, but since roleplaying is a big part of D&D and bards are more fit for calming down NPC, can sway enemies to being empathic to thier cause, can more easily gain information relevent to the adventure via mundane means more easily than most classes that is a form of balance to the bard class. He can't out-fight a barbarian, he can't out-cast a Sorcerrer, he can't out-stealth a rogue, but he can out-talk just about anyone, with alot of enchantment and illusion spells to back it up. My biggest point, if there are mechanics for roleplaying, then roleplaying must be part of the mechanics.

Also, a maximized Disentegrate spell still allows a save reducing it to 30 damage... Not as good vs. a Fighter as Polar Ray. Save and Suck spells allow a save, with dc's being fairly low. 10+spell level+Int (we'll even given Spell Focus) + 2 is roughly 26 for a 9th level spell. And how many 20th level fighters do you see without Cloaks of Reistance? Assuming (big assumption here for the fighter) he didn't use wisdom for his dump stat, his modifier before his roll will be around +12-+13 which is a 30%-35% success rate which.... kinda sucks.... ouch, save or Suck spells are definetly the fighters biggest weakness, but that's still within gambling odds for me. Besides, If a fighter goes first he can charge and initate a grapple (if he doesn't have improved Grapple, chances are still low for the Wizard to hit his AoO) and the the caster can't cast a spell with any somatic components, and all others require a check or they lose the spell. If he manages a pin on the next round, he can chose to prevent his opponent from speaking, cutting of the possiblity for the Wizard to cast any spells.

As for the concealment spells for the miss chance against the wizard, that works decently assuming the fighter doesn't have Blind-Fight

As for Zeful's point....

Solid Fog is... An EVIL spell!!! I'd never read that one before... ouch... but it also prevents line-of-sight to the Wizard's target, reducing them to AoE spells, which the fighter can simply huddle under a tower shield or tank out until the wizard runs out of spells, sipping of potions.

As for flying, what fighter doesn't, right after buying magic weapon and armor, invest in some for of magical flight for those pesky flying monsters?

And yes, I assume the wizard is unbuffed just as the fighter hasn't chugged bull's strength, Barkskin, Fly potions as well as applied various salve of spell reistance etc... I also assume the Wizard has A greater metamagic rod or two as well as a Staff and some potions and wands of his own.

Korivan
2009-07-05, 10:15 PM
Its not about the CON or the BAB. Its about the wizard using spells that make sure the fighter doesnt even hit the wizard. The wall spells, prismatic sphere...etc. Also, all those fighter hit points hes sporting...WORTHLESS. Tome of Vile Darkness equals Avasculate...target loses HALF current hitpoints and gets a fort save to avoid being stunned. Given all the different ways mages can pump out spells in a round, the fighter has little chance in avoiding a Dysjunction+ 1 or 2 Avasculates+ Power Word Kill=Win.


Ok, let me give a pro-rebuttle to be fair to fighters...after all I love fighters too. In the beginning few levels, a fighters tends to be much more durable then casters. A first level human mage after all gets what...2 1st level spells and a couple cantrips...combat wise, not going to take long to run out of spells and then if he/she doesnt have a ranged weapon or items to fall back on, then the caster can be dead weight.

Also, to be fair, these two classes have entirlly different roles in combat and thus comparing them against each other is alittle askew? And something I forgot to put in the first post, casters as I've seen have more options when prestige classing, thus more options, combat/non-combat wise.

Again, pro-rebuttle, a fighter/weapon master with scyth properly speced can dish out well over 2d4+1+5+5+STR+4+MASS Weapon enhancements, 11-20x6 crit total.

imperialspectre
2009-07-05, 10:26 PM
Dude...

Look, if you want to make it a direct-damage kludge, watch this (spoilered for space):

Rod of Greater Maximize + Time Stop. Wizard now has 5 pseudo-rounds to play with.

Time Stop Round 1: Rod of Greater Maximize + Delayed Blast Fireball. 120 damage.

Time Stop Round 2: Rod of Greater Maximize + Delayed Blast Fireball. 120 damage.

Time Stop Round 3: Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball. Average is 105.

Time Stop Round 4: Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball. Average is 105.

Time Stop Round 5: Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball. Average is 105.

Absent fire immunity, you just ate 555 points of damage. Good game, thanks for playing.

Now, if the spoilered text isn't convincing, we can take this to the play-by-post forum. I'll roll a core-only wizard, max 1 prestige class. You can roll a beatstick, any full-BAB class or PrC, any supplement you want. We can negotiate regarding the arena of choice. Fair enough?

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-05, 10:26 PM
Mostly, it's the point that, on any circumstance, a Wizard is always prepared against whatever a Fighter puts upon it. They don't need to have high hit points or high AC to beat a Fighter; they have tons of defensive spells, and it's just a matter of choosing which. Each one is flavored for the circumstance.

Really, the only weakness I'd find for a Wizard, and even then hardly a weakness, is vulnerability to Int damage. A lich doesn't have to worry about that ever, but a hit to Int that takes the Wizard to a mere 10 Int essentially shifts the battle so badly, it's not even funny.

The problem is: how to do so before the Wizard even moves!? CharOp at the WOTC forums pretty much analyzed every single move that the Wizard can do to cripple every single opponent, and essentially played the chessmaster on everybody. So as long as you have the right spells prepared for the day, the Wizard is undefeatable. The rest of the choices are to prevent the Wizard from making the wrong choice; hence, why Scrying and Contingency are killer spells. Then came Time Stop and ruined everything. A Fighter can't simply compare to Time Stop, let alone to simple spells such as Fly and Mirror Image by its own.

Another weakness is taking its spellbook(s) out. That's basically like taking the Green Power Battery out: you've crippled them, but that doesn't mean they lose their powers unless you take the Ring. And besides, they're always prepared to repair it back. A Wizard is never without its spellbook; and if it doesn't, at least it's never without a backup. Or several. Or multitudes.

Then again, most fantasy books place one of the greatest weaknesses of a Wizard to be CDGing it while it rests. Insomnia is also a good technique; a Wizard that can't rest isn't as powerful as before.

But, to make it short: Wizard is basically Deep(er) Blue. To beat him, you need to be better than Kasparov, and not always you'll win.

Signmaker
2009-07-05, 10:26 PM
I assume we're talking about high levels here.

It has been pointed out, time and time again, that the wizard has a VAST pool of spells in which to hamper, hurt, or kill the fighter. Therefore, the fighter must be able to somehow connect once with the wizard, and kill said wizard in one hit before said wizard gets a chance to act accordingly, contingencies aside.

There's a problem with that. A few, actually.

Foresight + Celerity is one, for splatbook users.
Moment of Prescience is another.

At high levels, it's just not adequately possible for the fighter to compete in terms of turn count, which means he can't get off that one swing, which means the wizard wins. Fly, Solid Fog, Forcecage, Evard's Tentacles, take your pick of squicky death.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-05, 10:40 PM
It's quite probable for a level 20 wizard to use 1st level (Core) spells to completely shut down a level 20 fighter for a few rounds, even without time stop (assuming the fighter in question hasn't specifically prepared for them).

Grease is a good one, since most fighters don't have ranks in Balance (as it isn't a class skill, many fighters dump Dex, and they generally don't have that many skill points anyway, since, beyond Int 13, Int is a dump stat). Fighters with items of flight (almost a necessity) will bypass this, but then again, maybe not (see carpet of flying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#carpetofFlying), which is something you'd have to be standing on, and woe to any fighter who falls off at 20,000 feet). That single spell can keep a fighter on his back for its entire duration, meaning he's easy meat for El Wizard.

It only goes up from there. Given that most wizards can use divination to figure out exactly what spells he needs for every encounter for the day, the fighter is FUBAR'd, since it's absolutely impossible for him to preempt what the wizard will do from day to day (and he can change the lineup EVERY day, if he so desires). A fighter has no class abilities that will help against what the wizard can do, and there's only so much WBL to go around (which the wizard has, too, which is merely icing on an already apocalyptic cake). You don't even need to leave Core.

I could go into all of the really mean spells and spell-combos that the wizard can pull out on any single day, if you want, though leafing through the PHB should be more than enough, really.

waterpenguin43
2009-07-05, 10:42 PM
I personally think that all classes are as equal as they will ever be at level 5.

tyckspoon
2009-07-05, 10:42 PM
If you grant the Wizard only hour/level duration spells (ie, those he can have up even if he for some reason is otherwise completely unprepared to be in a fight), and particularly if you're going to have him hold level 9 spells:

Statue
Mage Armor
Moment of Prescience.

Ok, somebody puts the Wizard and Fighter near each other and shouts 'FIGHT!'. Wizard uses Moment of Prescience to add his caster level to his initiative check. Wizard proceeds to win initiative. He backs up to 60 feet away and casts Waves of Exhaustion. Fighter is now 60 feet away and no save, just sucked: He has a -6 penalty to his Dex and his Strength, his move rate is halved, and he can't charge. Oh, and then there's the Quickened Ray of Enfeeblement, which stacks in another penalty for at least -6 Strength. -12 Strength, -6 Dex, Exhausted. What's the Fighter do now?

Alternately: The first round is a Quickened Ray of Exhaustion and a Solid Fog. The round after that is a Black Tentacles into the area of the fog. Then the wizard starts laying down Summon Monster (whatever) spells, so there's a nice sized unit of monsters waiting for you whenever you manage to stagger your way out of the Fog + Tentacles.

Or, defensively: first round is a Mirror Image and Greater Invisibility. Wizard moves away and activates his Statue spell.

Or life eating: Enervation, quickened Enervation. Repeat as necessary. Negative levels are a massively effective means of making somebody suck very rapidly.

All of those are tactics the Wizard can have ready at the same time, and any one of them screws your Fighter completely if he can't deal with it. And they've barely touched on the Wizard's actual primary resources, which are his highest level spells- what are you going to do if the Wizard pulls out Timestop and Shapechange, resulting in you facing off with a Mirror Image'd Dragon (not even the most powerful Shapechange selection) from inside a Black Tentacles while being ganged up on by summoned monsters? All inside one round?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-05, 10:47 PM
To specifically address your rebuttal:


In response to the Wizard using polymorph to increase stats and AC, I hadn't taken that into consideration. Not that I nesscerarily forgot about polymorph, but it just doesn't get used often at my gaming table. Quick question.. Can a Wizard cast spells while polymorphed? I know a Druid can't unless he takes Natural spell, and I always assumed divine spells were simpler to cast than Arcane, (since there is no Divine spell failure for armor), so wouldn't a Wizard that polymorphed into to something very alien to his natural form be unable to cast spells? The SRD didn't say one way or the other, so maybe that's up to the DM.

1) Divine spells aren't simpler, they just aren't hampered by armor; you can't extrapolate that to casting in a different form entirely.

2) Yes, you can cast while polymorphed. You don't lose your own abilities unless it states such in the description, which it doesn't.


Roleplaying IS a source of mechanical balance, but I feel I didn't explain myself properly. Take Bard. Many think of it as a Sub-optimal class, but since roleplaying is a big part of D&D and bards are more fit for calming down NPC, can sway enemies to being empathic to thier cause, can more easily gain information relevent to the adventure via mundane means more easily than most classes that is a form of balance to the bard class.

That isn't balance, though, that's attempting to compensate for a lack of balance, and it doesn't quite succeed. Fireball does 1d6 per caster level damage no matter what game you're playing, but the amount that roleplaying comes into it depends very much on the DM's style--sometimes you'll play a hack-and-slash game with little RP, sometimes you'll face Int -- opponents who can't be made friendly, and so on.


He can't out-fight a barbarian, he can't out-cast a Sorcerrer, he can't out-stealth a rogue, but he can out-talk just about anyone, with alot of enchantment and illusion spells to back it up. My biggest point, if there are mechanics for roleplaying, then roleplaying must be part of the mechanics.

Ah, but being part of mechanics and being a balancing factor are not synonomous. Diplomacy is a roleplaying mechanic. Diplomacy doesn't balance anyone against anyone else (and, in fact, unbalances it because of the ease by which you can convert people to your cause).


Also, a maximized Disentegrate spell still allows a save reducing it to 30 damage...

Assuming they make the save. You were talking about maximum possible damage, which is a failed-save disintegrate. If you want to go for average damage then you'd obviously pick something else.


Not as good vs. a Fighter as Polar Ray. Save and Suck spells allow a save, with dc's being fairly low. 10+spell level+Int (we'll even given Spell Focus) + 2 is roughly 26 for a 9th level spell. And how many 20th level fighters do you see without Cloaks of Reistance? Assuming (big assumption here for the fighter) he didn't use wisdom for his dump stat, his modifier before his roll will be around +12-+13 which is a 30%-35% success rate which.... kinda sucks....

You're forgetting a few things there. First, dealing Con damage/penalties to reduce his modifier is quite simple; there are many spells that do that or straight-out penalize saves.

Second, the wizard most likely has Int 34 (starting 18 [18 base or 16 plus +2 racial], +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 headband of intellect) and thus the DC is 10 + 9 level + 12 Int + 2 SF = 33. Fort +13 vs. DC 33 means he needs a natural 20 to succeed--not so shabby, huh? And that's before any other save boosters or the ability to make the fighter reroll (like Fatespinner).


Besides, If a fighter goes first he can charge and initate a grapple (if he doesn't have improved Grapple, chances are still low for the Wizard to hit his AoO) and the the caster can't cast a spell with any somatic components, and all others require a check or they lose the spell.

Abrupt Jaunt, contingent teleport, freedom of movement, fly, solid fog. You keep assuming the fighter can actually reach the wizard, which is not at all guaranteed.


As for the concealment spells for the miss chance against the wizard, that works decently assuming the fighter doesn't have Blind-Fight

Which, again, assumes the fighter gets close enough to try against concealment, and he can still roll badly twice instead of once.


Solid Fog is... An EVIL spell!!! I'd never read that one before... ouch... but it also prevents line-of-sight to the Wizard's target, reducing them to AoE spells, which the fighter can simply huddle under a tower shield or tank out until the wizard runs out of spells, sipping of potions.

Or he can summon a bunch of creatures to beat on the fighter.


As for flying, what fighter doesn't, right after buying magic weapon and armor, invest in some for of magical flight for those pesky flying monsters?

What wizard doesn't prepare dispel magic? That'll knock out the boots and deal some falling damage. The fighter only has 3 uses per day, and he doesn't have anything to dispel the wizard's fly.


And yes, I assume the wizard is unbuffed just as the fighter hasn't chugged bull's strength, Barkskin, Fly potions as well as applied various salve of spell reistance etc...

The fighter needs to waste actions to do that. The wizard's spells last all day thanks to hour per level durations or Persistent Spell or several other methods. You will not see an unbuffed wizard in a fight, even if it's only mage armor and a contingency.

Doc Roc
2009-07-05, 10:50 PM
You are cordially challenged to the Test Of Spite!

Join us in glorious battle, and take your point to the field of battle where respect may be won! There are a number of mage-o-philes willing to toss together a character to face you. If none of them will accept.... you can always opt to :: malevolent grin :: face me instead. I won't be properly available until thursday evening, but that should give you the time you need to spec out your fighter.


I'll let you pick the allowed books.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-05, 10:55 PM
Moment of Prescient: Never flatfooted
Celerity: Swift action, nets you one standard action
Contingency: lets you set a condition upon which to activate a contingency spell.

Put these three together and what do we get? The answer may surprise you.

Things to do after you make sure you go first:

Dominate the fighter
Irresistible dance the fighter
Force Cage him
Resilient Sphere
Empowered Enervation: 1d4*1.5 negative levels go bye bye.
Time Stop + Maw of Chaos*4 (1d6/caster level force damage, 1 round per caster level, 20 ft radius)
Avasculate him
Solid Fog
Wall of Force

Ironguard yourself: Immunity to metal weapons
Greater Blink yourself: 50% miss chance
Displacement: 50% miss chance
Greater Mirror Image: Send in the clones.

etc, etc.

Korivan
2009-07-05, 10:56 PM
You know a fun one to toy with people? Enervation+crushing despair+greater bestow curse+anything else that lowers saving throws, then flesh to stone-rock to mud-mude to rock-stone to flesh.....stinky pile of goo.

Or, behind protection spells if need be, use evards black tenticles + cloudkill + any summoned creature(s) immune to poison and incomporial + magic missile/acid missile them to death...needed, no, insulting...yes.

Back to topic, a fighter is going to need something that grants at least 40+SR to counter a 20th caster level effectively. Assuming that the caster doesnt have PRC or items or spells that gain plusses to caster checks.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-05, 10:56 PM
You are cordially challenged to the Test Of Spite!

Join us in glorious battle, and take your point to the field of battle where respect may be won! There are a number of mage-o-philes willing to toss together a character to face you. If none of them will accept.... you can always opt to :: malevolent grin :: face me instead. I won't be properly available until thursday evening, but that should give you the time you need to spec out your fighter.


I'll let you pick the allowed books.

My sorcerer is going nowhere. can i join?

Signmaker
2009-07-05, 10:59 PM
Irresistible dance the fighter


That's just meaaaaaan.

Flickerdart
2009-07-05, 11:01 PM
Back to topic, a fighter is going to need something that grants at least 40+SR to counter a 20th caster level effectively. Assuming that the caster doesnt have PRC or items or spells that gain plusses to caster checks.
Conjuration spells. Force Cage. Beguiler. Assay Resistance. SR doesn't really matter, it just limits a few of the caster's toys.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-05, 11:02 PM
That's just meaaaaaan.
It's simply fabulous.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-05, 11:03 PM
Heh. Even if the fighter could possibly win initiative (ie, not likely (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm)), he still has to manage to reach the wizard (ie, not (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm) likely (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneshape.htm)). If so, he has to be able to reliably hit him (ie, not (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) likely (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensiondoor.htm)), and has to one-shot-kill him (also not (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm) likely (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm)).

If, after doing all that, he has to realize that he didn't kill the wizard; it was an illusion or a simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) the whole time. Then, assuming the wizard didn't just teleport away, and he does manage to 'kill' the actual wizard, he then has to deal with the fact that he just killed the wizard's astral projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). Assuming he can kill the body of the wizard, he has to deal with the fact that the wizard set up three dozen clones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) and hid them around.

And yes, all of those can be set up with a single wizard, all at the same time. The first paragraph is via a Maximized (via rod) time stop, and the rest of it was set up beforehand.

Tip of the iceburg, lad. Tip of the iceburg.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-05, 11:04 PM
Hey, Choku, here's my sorcerer (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26191). It was originally designed for a 2v2 pvp, so this isn't specifically prepared to take out a fighter. Make a martial character and we'll see how well you can do against it.

Korivan
2009-07-05, 11:05 PM
Conjuration spells. Force Cage. Beguiler. Assay Resistance. SR doesn't really matter, it just limits a few of the caster's toys.

Ya, I know, but I figure if he's trying to make an anti-caster build, its kinda required thematically...it wont help but hey, im not sure what will.

Doc Roc
2009-07-05, 11:18 PM
SR helps some, if you can push it up to around 40. It at least insures that most things from wands won't get you, but if the enemy is at all competent..

"You're already dead..."
Since you'd need to leave core to get SR that high.

Chokuto
2009-07-05, 11:20 PM
Hey, Choku, here's my sorcerer (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26191). It was originally designed for a 2v2 pvp, so this isn't specifically prepared to take out a fighter. Make a martial character and we'll see how well you can do against it.


Sure, just bump you're Caster up to 20 and we'll go . I also accept that Test of Spite!

I assume we get to buy magic items with WDL chart in the DMG?
As for supplement books, I'm tempted to just say core, because I'm not familiar with the all spells in the 3rd parties...

NExt Thursday is fine, it's my first day off, oh, and any Wizard/Sorcerrer that beats me, I will put a note in my sig saying that ""Timmy's" Wizard destroyed my fighter in TEST OF SPITE!" How's that for a prize?

Flickerdart
2009-07-05, 11:22 PM
Sure, just bump you're Caster up to 20 and we'll go . I also accept that Test of Spite!

I assume we get to buy magic items with WDL chart in the DMG?
As for supplement books, I'm tempted to just say core, because I'm not familiar with the all spells in the 3rd parties...

NExt Thursday is fine, it's my first day off, oh, and any Wizard/Sorcerrer that beats me, I will put a note in my sig saying that ""Timmy's" Wizard destroyed my fighter in TEST OF SPITE!" How's that for a prize?
Who's Timmy? If you mean Tippy, then he's already won. You just don't know it yet, because he has Mindraped you to think otherwise.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-05, 11:23 PM
Sure, just bump you're Caster up to 20 and we'll go . I also accept that Test of Spite!

I assume we get to buy magic items with WDL chart in the DMG?
As for supplement books, I'm tempted to just say core, because I'm not familiar with the all spells in the 3rd parties...

NExt Thursday is fine, it's my first day off, oh, and any Wizard/Sorcerrer that beats me, I will put a note in my sig saying that ""Timmy's" Wizard destroyed my fighter in TEST OF SPITE!" How's that for a prize?

Considering that most everyone believes it's a foregone conclusion, that really isn't really a prize...

How 'bout a cookie?

Chokuto
2009-07-05, 11:24 PM
By the way, I read Moment of Prescience, but I didn't see where you get it to add to your Init. Am I reading it wrong? Also, on second thought, just to help you casters out, We'll expand it to the Complete series as well. ( Complete Divine, Arcane, Adventurer, Warrior, Champion, Scoundrel, Mage) I know those fairly well...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-05, 11:26 PM
Sure, just bump you're Caster up to 20 and we'll go . I also accept that Test of Spite
1. The ToS is level 13 by default.
2. You *really* don't want a level 20 challenge.

Signmaker
2009-07-05, 11:26 PM
By the way, I read Moment of Prescience, but I didn't see where you get it to add to your Init. Am I reading it wrong? Also, on second thought, just to help you casters out, We'll expand it to the Complete series as well. ( Complete Divine, Arcane, Adventurer, Warrior, Champion, Scoundrel, Mage) I know those fairly well...


This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself. Once during the spellís duration, you may choose to use its effect. This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw. Alternatively, you can apply the insight bonus to your AC against a single attack (even if flat-footed). Activating the effect doesnít take an action; you can even activate it on another characterís turn if needed. You must choose to use the moment of prescience before you make the roll it is to modify. Once used, the spell ends.

You canít have more than one moment of prescience active on you at the same time.

Ze Emphasis.

Doc Roc
2009-07-05, 11:26 PM
No third party material is allowed in ToS. Don't worry. Take a look over at the house rules and such. They mostly help fighters. Obviously, I'll unban fighter for this challenge. You might consider using Tome of Battle to give yourself a better go of it, but I sense that's not in the spirit of what you want.


Are you SURE you wanna do this at level 20?
I will, of course, arrange for it to be possible to the best of my abilities. But I recommend the base level, which is 13. I'm a pretty well-known optimizer, and 11-13 is about as high as I'd go for this sort of a one-off. Alternatively, you could do a series of challenges at varying levels.

Again, my considerable resources will be at your disposal to the best of my time-limited abilities.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-05, 11:27 PM
Ze Emphasis.

That, and initiative is explicitly called out as a Dexterity check.

Chokuto
2009-07-05, 11:28 PM
Considering that most everyone believes it's a foregone conclusion, that really isn't really a prize...

How 'bout a cookie?

If I had cookies, from the looks of your guys expectations, I'd need a bakery, lol

I assume you'll be there, Lycanthromancer? Surely you wouldn't say it's a foregone conclusion unless you could back it up?

tyckspoon
2009-07-05, 11:33 PM
By the way, I read Moment of Prescience, but I didn't see where you get it to add to your Init. Am I reading it wrong? Also, on second thought, just to help you casters out, We'll expand it to the Complete series as well. ( Complete Divine, Arcane, Adventurer, Warrior, Champion, Scoundrel, Mage) I know those fairly well...

Initiative is a Dex check. Which is rolled between two or more competing characters, and the highest roller wins. It fits the terms of an 'opposed ability check', which means you can pop Moment of Prescience to get a massive boost.

Complete Mage/Arcane as well? Well, good luck. You'll have to deal with Initiate of the Seven Veils and Fatespinner as well in that set.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-05, 11:35 PM
Don't do level 20. Look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111843). It's for a party of martial characters, and they were asking what would be needed for it to even be possible. The answer ended up being 'so much homebrew even AA won't have time to write all of it'.

Doc Roc
2009-07-05, 11:38 PM
Back up will be supplied. I vote for:

Best out of Seven.
Arena chosen by Cho.
Core + Completes.
Io7V banned. Because seriously, that's just cruel.
A variety of levels, none above 16. You don't want to deal with 9th level spells.


I will endeavor to supply impartial mediation to the best of my ability...
BUT I cordially request that I not be the GM as I am both busy and biased.

Lert, A.
2009-07-05, 11:50 PM
I am also busy. And biased.

Really, jsut going the brute force route I wouldn't give the fighter much of a chance. A single Summon Monster (insert roman numeral) could probably win the fight if you came right down to it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-05, 11:51 PM
Draw your last pathetic card (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=27364)

Or we can, you know, do this at level 13 as per the other Tests of Spite (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26885)

Olo Demonsbane
2009-07-05, 11:58 PM
All of your characters are sorcerers, not wizards.

And I would be happy to face you also if you need more proof, I can whip up a character in less than a day.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-06, 12:02 AM
All of your characters are sorcerers, not wizards.
I happen to *have* these two to work with due to the Test of Spite. I only have one wizard, and she's busy dehydrating in a desert due to Tidesinger's twisted sense of humor.

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 12:04 AM
I happen to *have* these two to work with due to the Test of Spite. I only have one wizard, and she's busy dehydrating in a desert due to Tidesinger's twisted sense of humor.

You knew precisely what you were getting into.

(No, he totally didn't.)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-06, 12:11 AM
I heard that!

ericgrau
2009-07-06, 01:38 AM
It's quite probable for a level 20 wizard to use 1st level (Core) spells to completely shut down a level 20 fighter...

Grease is a good one, since most fighters don't have ranks in Balance...

First at level 20 he can often just save against a first level spell. Second even if he fails the save he isn't shut down. He gets up and walks out of the grease or if he can't do that he crawls out of the 10 foot width using a single or double move. Or if in melee he just stays down and fights from the ground even with the penalty. "Inconvenienced for 1 round (at most)" would be a better term than "shut down". The act of casting grease also inconveniences the wizard for 1 round (no save).

My main point is that silly comments like these obscure these discussions into a rush hour gridlock of traffic and thus it's unlikely that this matter will be resolved any time soon this way. A duel might be better, but is highly subject to human error, DM interpretation and book limits. It also doesn't fully represent usefulness in a party. Beyond that, I dunno.

TSED
2009-07-06, 02:47 AM
First at level 20 he can often just save against a first level spell. Second even if he fails the save he isn't shut down. He gets up and walks out of the grease or if he can't do that he crawls out of the 10 foot width using a single or double move. Or if in melee he just stays down and fights from the ground even with the penalty. "Inconvenienced for 1 round (at most)" would be a better term than "shut down". The act of casting grease also inconveniences the wizard for 1 round (no save).


A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it canít move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).

1) Reflex save. Few fighters have dex above 12. Fewer fighters are capable of making, you know, DC25 or whatever reflex saves. That is NOT a hard DC to pump out AT ALL and I lowballed it, frankly.

2) Unlikely to have any ranks in balance. I think, but could be wrong, that you need to be trained to use balance. Regardless, he's flatfooted anyways.

3) It's more than one round to get out of it, sorry.

4) Quickened. Unleash your other toys!




My main point is that silly comments like these obscure these discussions into a rush hour gridlock of traffic and thus it's unlikely that this matter will be resolved any time soon this way. A duel might be better, but is highly subject to human error, DM interpretation and book limits. It also doesn't fully represent usefulness in a party. Beyond that, I dunno.

This is very true.

A duel will prove nothing, except that a wizard can beat a fighter in a duel. Oh wow, what a shock.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-06, 03:42 AM
I respectfully disagree about the fact that a fighter has more or less 12 in dex.

Dex is useful for Combat Reflexes. You could even build a fighter about CR (even if not only about it).

And, not to say that a wiz does not trick you if he wants, but after a while saves scale quite well.

At level 20, I think that a +6 to saves from items and another + 5-6 from buffed up dex is affordable (maybe I'm wrong).

So, more or less +12/+18 on reflexes is not impossible. Maybe the problem is enough money for a decent weapon.

Anyway, IMHO these threads are needless. The game is not for PVP, at max party vs party (in that case, maybe more balanced).

If you are problems with wizard (me, not), screw the spells you consider more powerful, but the duel thing is not useful IMHO.

Oslecamo
2009-07-06, 03:58 AM
Don't do level 20. Look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111843). It's for a party of martial characters, and they were asking what would be needed for it to even be possible. The answer ended up being 'so much homebrew even AA won't have time to write all of it'.

Wrong answer is wrong. The lv 20 wizard vs party of three melees was done in this very forums before that, and the melees won despite an ethereal super invisible wizard protected by AMF cheese.

olentu
2009-07-06, 04:01 AM
Wrong answer is wrong. The lv 20 wizard vs party of three melees was done in this very forums before that, and the melees won despite an ethereal super invisible wizard protected by AMF cheese.

Although this was a sorcerer that decided to use the 3rd or 4th (or something like that) best tactic that was thought up.

Oslecamo
2009-07-06, 04:04 AM
Although this was a sorcerer that decided to use the 3rd or 4th (or something like that) best tactic that was thought up.

Considering that the 1st best tactics is Pun-Pun(wich anyone can do at 20th level), and the second best tactic is gate abuse(wich again everybody can do at 20th level), and that it was actually a wizard if I remember correctly, and that the melee guys survived all, hey, not a bad start. Just one tactic to defeat.

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 04:18 AM
That statement is so willfully wrong headed. I'm not sure why you are doing this, but there's a whole long list of solid tactics that meleers can't follow with any reasonable rejoinder, like summon spam of alternative varieties, contingency abuse, any form of meaningful crowd control, astral projection abuse, scry-and-die silliness....

Besides, 3v1 causes action efficiency problems that can make reasonable situations unwinnable.

I'm going to re-iterate my offer regarding the test of spite, which is PvP and PvE designed explicitly to provide a reasonable testing ground for concepts like this, and I'm also going to re-iterate my frustration with these threads because this is no reasoned debate. It's going to be a shouting match and I'll never win one of those.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-06, 04:22 AM
Again, this is without sense. The various setting have different rules and exceptions, as is any setting a certain DM makes up.

As an example, with an ad-hoc incantation and an amulet of planes, even a fighter could chain-gate.

The whole duel thing has no sense - the only fact is that some class or class feature need a boost, and some cheesy things must be banned or kept at bay, basing on DM and players feel, campaing etc.

Because if you make classes able to duel, I guess you go in the 4th edition direction.

And I don't want to.

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 04:24 AM
Or you lay out a reasonable ban-list. Kai, we're not talking about some magical special case. Without serious GM intervention, many or most of the later adventures are explicitly impossible if you don't have hard hitting caster support. Because they were designed in a way that was sensitive to the actual balance of the game and they suffered because of it. Even as a gamist, and a man who loves 3.5, I believe there are, as you say, fundamental imbalances. They are not limited to PvP.

olentu
2009-07-06, 04:32 AM
Considering that the 1st best tactics is Pun-Pun(wich anyone can do at 20th level), and the second best tactic is gate abuse(wich again everybody can do at 20th level), and that it was actually a wizard if I remember correctly, and that the melee guys survived all, hey, not a bad start. Just one tactic to defeat.

Having gone back to check the thread I can quote a post that lists it as a sorcerer.


Silverbrow Human Sorceror 8/Frost Mage 10/Elemental Savant 1/Archmage 1
Point Buy: (32)
Humanoid (Cold Subtype)

Str: 8
Dex: 16 (22)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 24 (30)

Feats:
Scribe Scroll
Piercing Cold
1) Frozen Magic
Flaw) Maximize Spell
Flaw) Spell Focus (Evocation)
Human) Energy Substitution (Cold)
3) Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
6) Spell Focus (Conjuration)
9) Accelerate Metamagic (Piercing Cold)
12) Practical Metamagic (Piercing Cold)
15) Practical Metamagic (Maximize Spell)
18) Accelerate Metamagic (Maximize Spell)
Feats from PrC: Piercing Cold

Abilities: Feather Fall 5x/day
Nat Armor +4
Flaw: Noncombatant, Murky-eyed

Saves: 6/11/16
BAB: +9/+4
Grapple: +8
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
MAB: +8
RAB: +15
Initiative: +6
AC: 20 (10 + 6 dex +4 Nat)

Spells Known: 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3
Spells/Day: 6/9/9/8/8/8/7/7/7/7

Spells Known:
0: Resistance, Light, Ghost sound, Message, Mage Hand, Open/close, Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Read Magic
1: True Strike, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Lesser Orb of Cold, Conjure Ice Beast 1
2: Web, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Gust of Wind, Resistance to Energy, Conjure Ice Beast 2
3: Haste, Fly, Blacklight, Slow, Conjure Ice Beast 3
4: Wall of Ice, Black Tentacles, Orb of Cold, Orb of Sound, Conjure Ice Beast 4
5: Wall of Force, Cloudkill, Telekinesis, Dominate Person
6: True Seeing, Antimagic Field, Disintigrate
7: Arcane Spellsurge, Forcecage, Ironguard
8: Polar Ray, Invisibility (Superior), Ghostform
9: Maw of Chaos, Crushing Hand, Time Stop, Frostfell

High Arcana: Mastery of shaping (lose: 1 level 6 spell slot)

Skills: Know (Arcana) 23 ranks - +23
Spellcraft 23 ranks - +23
Know (Planes) 23 ranks - +23

Items: Book Cha +1 (27.5 k)
Cloak Cha +6 (36 k)
Gloves Dex +6 (36 k)
Blindfold of True Darkness (9 k)
Belt of Battle (12 k)
Circlet of Rapid Casting (15 k)
Metamagic Rod (Quicken)
Lesser x 3 (105 k)
Medium x 2 (151 k)
Greater (170 k)
Metamagic Rod (Silent)
Greater x3 (73.5 k)
Metamagic Rod (Empower)
Medium x2 (65 k)

5 Scrolls, each containing:
Prismatic Sphere (19.125 k)
Reverse Gravity 1 (11.375 k)
Wall of stone x2 (11.250 k)
Ethereal Jaunt (11.375 k)

Handy Haversack (2 k)
Spell Materials and Focii totalling: 23.875k

Starting buffs:1) Wall of stone, 5 inches thick, occupying each of the 8 squares surrounding J2, to an elevation of 10 feet, and J2, elevation 10 feet only - From one of scrolls
Antimagic Field-Mastery of Shaping to exclude the 5 foot square at point of origin - cast from spell list

Tell me, apprentice slayers, do you have any idea how hard it is to challenge an experienced mage? All of my mage friends are casting their epic magic, and I can't find anything challenging enough to actually hurt me... Quite Frankly, it's embarassing being the only guy in the clubhouse that hasn't dropped a Hellball on an unsuspecting village. These fights aren't TEACHING me anything. As you are the only group that's assaulted my fortress who aren't total buffoons, I've let you in, as a test of my abilities. This room, specially designed to be unescapable and impervious to magicks designed to penetrate it, was placed to give you the confidence you need to face one of my caliber.

Young mage slayers, I've nowhere to run. Nowhere to hide. And, to answer your questions, yes, I really did do everything that you've been sent to kill me for. Probably a few things that they haven't found out yet. Disintigrate does leave so few remains.

With that, a sphere of solid rock winks into existence in the squares surrounding the mage.

OOC: Not all abilities are listed currently on my sheet. As of the morning, when I get off work and add in the classial abilites for my only undefined PRC (Frost Mage), I'll be good to go. Darn not having access to frostburn at work.

For the 3rd slayer, don't look in my character spoiler until after your character is designed. Afterwards, my character spoiler is fair game, though my buff spoiler is not.

I'll see if I can pull in a guest ref. Any volunteers?

That being said 3 optimized multiclass mageslayers (I do not care to look if they had any levels of fighter) fighting a deliberately unoptimized sorcerer is not really the same.

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 04:40 AM
Where's PhaedrusXY when you need his help?

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-06, 04:45 AM
Do not feed the trolls.

Chokuto
2009-07-06, 04:49 AM
This all sounds great but I'm sleepy now. I will have my character sheet up ASAP. And in response to the statement that this PvP thing solves nothing, I disagree.... It solves boredom for a very long time and is quite funny for the spectators....

One thing, are we assuming both character (i.e. Me and Full-caster) are buffed before hand? or not?

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 05:01 AM
As the challenger, this is up to you, but classically I permit all-day buffs to be up and running for the challenge. UMD'd wands and such are naturally permitted. I want to emphasize that the ToS is a very high-powered run, but I look forward to doing what I can to lend credibility to a definitive examination of this debate in the context of PvP.

Kurald Galain
2009-07-06, 05:15 AM
Wrong answer is wrong. The lv 20 wizard vs party of three melees was done in this very forums before that, and the melees won despite an ethereal super invisible wizard protected by AMF cheese.
That is correct, although I should point out that this involved Tome of Battle classes, rather than a straight Fighter. It is widely known that TOB melee classes are more powerful than PHB melee classes, indeed narrowing the gap between melee and caster is the whole point of the TOB.



Because if you make classes able to duel, I guess you go in the 4th edition direction.
I'm afraid you don't. 4E doesn't do PVP well, because it wasn't designed for PVP. Essentially, it boils down to "whoever wins initiative, wins the battle" (because he'll do minor action buff + daily power + action point + daily power, and because as compared to monsters, PCs do huge amounts of damage and have few hit points).

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 05:20 AM
That is correct, although I should point out that this involved Tome of Battle classes, rather than a straight Fighter. It is widely known that TOB melee classes are more powerful than PHB melee classes, indeed narrowing the gap between melee and caster is the whole point of the TOB.


Wait, they were ToB?
No one mentioned they were heavily optimized ToB builds. ToB is made of win and glory, and while it's not as on quite the level of full-casting (normally), 3v1 with ToB is almost auto-loss for the 1 side without hard-core cheese.

ToB builds are not fighters. ToB builds are alternate-style casters with flair, pizzazz and more fun than a barrel full of monkeys!

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-06, 05:32 AM
I don't understand why anyone would even think that an arena-style battle would reveal anything. This is a role-playing game. Any competition between classes should consist of two battles: In one battle, Class A is going about their day-to-day tasks, Class B is on the same plane within one mile of them and must find and kill them; In the other battle, Class B is going about their day-to-day tasks, Class A is on the same plane within one mile of them and must find and kill them. Neither class can use traps or other creatures not granted by a class feature, such as an animal companion or familiar or summoned/called creatures. In each battle, the aggressor can choose to buff ahead of time, their intended victim will have any buffs they use on a daily basis and may buff once they're aware of the aggression. That would actually be a true test of a class' playability, as even a Commoner can succeed at stand-here-swing-sword.

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 05:33 AM
Could I induce you to run such a thing, Biff?

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-06, 05:39 AM
.
more fun than a barrel full of monkeys!

I had a barrel full of monkey, once.

They died soon and it was not fun. Just remembering it breaks my hearth. I hate you, Tidesinger

*hides in a corner, crying*

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 05:52 AM
They died soon and it was not fun. Just remembering it breaks my hearth. I hate you, Tidesinger

Sigged. I am the Hearth-Breaker, and it is by my hand that foundations are sundered and monkeys are barreled.
Look upon my misdeeds and tremble with righteous fury. ;)

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-06, 05:58 AM
Sigged. I am the Hearth-Breaker, and it is by my hand that foundations are sundered and monkeys are barreled.
Look upon my misdeeds and tremble with righteous fury. ;)

*runs away in fear looking for his Wu*

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 06:04 AM
Does the fighter have Buddha-nature?

Mu.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-06, 07:56 AM
Does the fighter have Buddha-nature?

Mu.

*snaps fingers* That's another tactic! Baleful polymorph into a cow....

Oh, you said mu. My bad.

:smallwink:

More seriously, I'll try to get in on this Test of Spite thing, but I don't know how soon I'll be able to build a character. And I agree that a duel really doesn't prove anything, but if Biffoniacus_Furiou would be willing to carry out his suggestion that would be a very interesting data point.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-06, 08:34 AM
Anyway, IMHO these threads are needless. The game is not for PVP, at max party vs party (in that case, maybe more balanced).




More seriously, I'll try to get in on this Test of Spite thing, but I don't know how soon I'll be able to build a character. And I agree that a duel really doesn't prove anything, but if Biffoniacus_Furiou would be willing to carry out his suggestion that would be a very interesting data point.


the BBEG of a campaign can often be a wizard, sorcerer, druid, or cleric, so fighting one as a party/individual is not out of the question.



One thing, are we assuming both character (i.e. Me and Full-caster) are buffed before hand? or not?
Buffs that last for over 6 hours are considered "all day" buffs. Sound reasonable?

Signmaker
2009-07-06, 08:39 AM
Buffs that last for over 6 hours are considered "all day" buffs. Sound reasonable?

Why not give him 10 min/level wands or something too? Might as well.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-06, 08:41 AM
If he buys wands of a high enough CL, sure.

Or we can both start naked.

Berserk Monk
2009-07-06, 08:43 AM
For me, it depends on what level they are and if either has a prestige class.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-06, 08:49 AM
Does the fighter have Buddha-nature?

Mu.

I meant my personal Wu. Ever read 3x3 eyes? :smallwink:

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 08:51 AM
I meant my personal Wu. Ever read 3x3 eyes? :smallwink:

It is not in the nature of things to know what we meant. I did, however, grasp your meaning. :)

Roland St. Jude
2009-07-06, 08:52 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Okay, please take the test of spite to the test of spite thread (which really should go in PbP, so don't be surprised if it moves there eventually). Also, don't call others names, whether that's "troll" or "willfully wrongheaded."