Need help on improving Divine Oracle Build

[Darwin]

So last session the Beguiler/Shadowcraft Mage character I've been running for 2½ years died a horrible death (fountain of green slime disguised as water, damn you Zagig!). Taking a little time I decided to create a Divine Oracle, it seemed to suit my taste perfectly. However having the build completed I felt a lot of things could be done better, but I don't know how, so here's me asking for your assistance :smallwink:

The build goes as follows:

The character starts at level 12.

32 Point Buy

Diviner 6/Divine Oracle 10/Fatespinner 4

Spontaneous Divination ACF (Allows him to convert any prepared spell to a divination spell of equal levels)

FEATS
[Human] Improved Initiative
[1] Insightful Divination
[3] Extend Spell
[5 Bonus] Swapped for Spontaneous Divination ACF
[6] Skill Focus (religion)
[9] Quicken Spell
[12] Craft Wondrous Item
[15] Spell Penetration
[18] Greater Spell Penetration

The following spells are banned in our campaign:
Mage's Disjunction
Alter Self, Polymorph, Shapechange
Shivering Touch
Lesser Celerity, Celerity and Greater Celerity

I'd like a few tips on what spells to extend and quicken as well, haven't had any experience with prepared casters before.

Another thing worth mentioning is that we've got a houserule for save-or-die and save-or-suck spells that allows you more than one save depending on your current hp.

Any advice and help is welcome :smallbiggrin:

[Fishy]

Since Divine Oracles already have Skill Focus: Knowledge: Religion, they basically auto-qualify for Loremaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm). It's a fun and flavorful class, and it has UMD as a class skill, and if your INT is high enough, you can get that wasted feat back. I don't know whether it's better or worse than Fatespinner or Master Specialist, though.

[olentu]

I think the spontaneous divination alternative class feature from complete champion can only replace the 5th, 10th, 15th, or 20th level bonus feat in wizard.

[Darwin]

I think the spontaneous divination alternative class feature from complete champion can only replace the 5th, 10th, 15th, or 20th level bonus feat in wizard.

You're absolutely right, I can't believe I missed that little bit out. Guess that settles the issue with Master Specialist :smallwink:

[Gaiyamato]

You're absolutely right, I can't believe I missed that little bit out. Guess that settles the issue with Master Specialist :smallwink:

You could go:

Diviner 5 (SD ACF)/Master Specialist 1/Divine Oracle 10/Fate Spinner 4

Remember that you get Skill Focus (spellcraft) for free with the first level of Master Specialist. It is actually a very useful feat I have found. :)

Not sure about the last 4 levels of Divine Oracle. I've never found them massively useful. :P
You get an extra +1 to your trap sense and at level 10 you cannot be suprised.

I might go more like this:

Diviner 5 (SD ACF)/Master Specialist 1/Divine Oracle 1/Combat Seer 3/Divine Oracle +5/Fate Spinner 4/Lore Master 1

[Eldariel]

If you're Neutral, might want to take 1 level of Mindbender to the empty 6th level.

[Darwin]

The +1 to my Trap Sense isn't worth much I agree, however being immune to surprise combined with a huge initative bonus lets me take the first action in any round of combat, which in my humble opinion seems worth the three dead levels considering that I don't have access to Celerity and it's brothers :smallbiggrin:


If you're Neutral, might want to take 1 level of Mindbender to the empty 6th level.

Exactly what I did on my beguiler, paired with the Mindsight feat from LoM the heavy skill requirements might be worth it.

[Gaiyamato]

Yeah that's fair enough. :)

Here is what Combat Seer gets though (aside from full caster progression and no feats required to enter):

Level 1:
Sense Potential (Su): The combat seer can tell the
potential of a single individual. With a Sense Motive
check (DC 10 + target’s Hit Dice or level) he is able to
discern one of the following pieces of information; race,
class, character level, one special ability or quality. This
sense potential ability can pierce disguises and illusions,
as he senses the true potential of his target. Each Sense
Motive check is a full-round action.

Level 2:
Prescient Defence (Ex): Once an encounter starts,
the combat seer has a general idea of what will happen
in the next few moments, with the action centred on
himself. Once per day, he can gain magical insight and
automatically avoid one attack that would have succeeded
against him. This includes normal melee and ranged
attacks to spells or effects that could have been halved
or negated by a Reflex save. The character is considered
to have succeeded his save, or the attack is considered an
automatic failure. The character must activate this ability
after an attack is adjudicated as successful, but before
damage is dealt.

Level 3:
Moment of Prescience (Su): The combat seer knows
how a particular course of action turns out given certain
circumstances. By devoting a full-round action to
focussing the possible futures and possibilities before
him, he can grant himself or an ally within 5 feet the
ability to take 20 on any skill, ability or level check. This
check will take half the required time to complete. At
3rd level he can use this prescience once per day, but it
increases to twice per day at 6th level and three times per
day at 9th level.

[Darwin]

Those 3 levels of Combat Seer sounds mighty tempting, however I shall have to butter up my DM a little, he's very picky on non-wotc material.

Realizing that the Divine Oracle's capstone ability can easily be replicated by Foresight I think the build should go something along the lines of:

Diviner 5/Mindbender 1/Combat Seer 3/Divine Oracle 6/Fatespinner 4/Loremaster 1

With Mindbender in the build I'd simply have to include Mindsight as well, it's too good to pass up on.

[Eldariel]

Immune to Surprise is better than Foresight. While Foresight keeps you from ever being flat-footed, Immune to Surprise actually grants you an action on every surprise round you are a part of! That's just nuts. But yeah, that's all it has going on for it.

Also, Loremaster 1 is awesome; allows you to max out Use Magic Device, and take Applicable Knowledge (with enough Int) to get back the feat you used to enter Divine Oracle.


Also, the hell is Combat Seer from? Is it some homebrew class or some such?

[Darwin]

Immune to Surprise is better than Foresight. While Foresight keeps you from ever being flat-footed, Immune to Surprise actually grants you an action on every surprise round you are a part of! That's just nuts. But yeah, that's all it has going on for it.

Also, Loremaster 1 is awesome; allows you to max out Use Magic Device, and take Applicable Knowledge (with enough Int) to get back the feat you used to enter Divine Oracle.


Also, the hell is Combat Seer from? Is it some homebrew class or some such?

Foresight says, and I quote "You are never surprised or flat-footed."

Combat Seer is from The Quintessential Wizard II from Mongoose Publishing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Don't spend/waste a feat on Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion, just pay 2,000 gp and say you visited the Frog God's Fane in Complete Scoundrel to get it for free.

[Darwin]

Don't spend/waste a feat on Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion, just pay 2,000 gp and say you visited the Frog God's Fane in Complete Scoundrel to get it for free.

A great suggestion had it not been for me and the DM both agreeding that handing out "free" feats like that is utterly stupid, he'd never let it pass, and I'd never want to take it. For others out there who might be feeling inspired from this thread go ahead and do this, this is just a personal opinion that merely applies to my own game :smallbiggrin:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A great suggestion had it not been for me and the DM both agreeding that handing out "free" feats like that is utterly stupid, he'd never let it pass, and I'd never want to take it. For others out there who might be feeling inspired from this thread go ahead and do this, this is just a personal opinion that merely applies to my own game :smallbiggrin:

That, or the designers realized that certain feats weren't worth taking, so they included those locations for characters to gain such feats for a different cost. It's not a free feat, you earn it through role playing or if starting at a higher level subtract a cost from your starting wealth. That cost or the difficulty of earning it is based on how powerful the feat is, which in this case is not much because it is an extremely weak feat. When the game designers feel that a feat is so weak that it should be easy to obtain through alternate means, you can be sure that it probably isn't worth spending one of your character's feat choices on.

[Darwin]

That, or the designers realized that certain feats weren't worth taking, so they included those locations for characters to gain such feats for a different cost. It's not a free feat, you earn it through role playing or if starting at a higher level subtract a cost from your starting wealth. That cost or the difficulty of earning it is based on how powerful the feat is, which in this case is not much because it is an extremely weak feat. When the game designers feel that a feat is so weak that it should be easy to obtain through alternate means, you can be sure that it probably isn't worth spending one of your character's feat choices on.

Well put, but talking about designers I'm pretty sure at least some of the game designers had put a lot of thought in it before they decided to put in "weak" feats as requirements for a lot of prestige classes (looking at you, skill focus and combat casting!). If the designers didn't want you to spend feat slots in the first place, why are those requirements even there? I still think that complete scoundrel's introduction of legendary sites is a bit of uneccessary power creep :smallsmile:

[Gaiyamato]

Skill focus - Knowledge (Religion) can be an insanely stupid feat.

I made a gnome once who built an army of Golems for free using just that skill and nothing else.
Didn't even have magic.

But yeah in this build, and in most builds, it is a really really bad waste of a feat slot. If you can fit the fluff in I'd say go for the paid feat.