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View Full Version : so I'm thinking of making a PrC.



Seraph
2005-12-16, 06:12 PM
I've been thinking on converting the "Dark Knight" class from Final Fantasy into a PrC. problem is, I don't know where to start.


basically, the Dark Knight is a melee warrior who can cast arcane spells exclusively of the necromantic and evocational bend, as well as using special abilities that usually consist of sacrificing one's own HP for large amounts of damage to enemies. they normally use heavy-damage two-handed weapons like greatswords and scythes, as well as heavy armor, so somatic components and ASF are a bit of an issue.

so:

I need prerequisites for entering (two I have are non good alignment as well as needing to have been betrayed by or to have betrayed a close friend or family member) and other game mechanic-related things.

Yuki Akuma
2005-12-16, 06:20 PM
Prerequisites:
Alignment: Any nongood
Feats: Weapon Focus in any two-handed weapon, Power Attack
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks
Special: Must have betrayed or been betrayed by a close friend or family member.


What do you think of those pre-reqs?

anime713
2005-12-16, 06:22 PM
You might try looking at the Blackguard as a kind of starting point. It might have some things you'd be interested in, such as the prerequisites.

Larrin
2005-12-16, 06:26 PM
well, first off, look at the black guard, see what you want to keep and what you want to change (probably a good place to get spell progression, numbers of spells, whatever)

then decide, is this a warrior that has turn evil, and now is gaining magic, or is he someone with a magic background (decide how much) this will decide what sort of magic requirements you give.
I would say no previous caster ability required. that way you just have to deal with you own spell list that you make.


first things that come to mind are probably

BAB+6
power attack, cleave (since they like big weapons, this kinda relfects that)
one more feat that represents the flavor of your character OR Two skills (toatal require ranks around 10) that relfect your character and could be attained by a level 6 fighter type.

as fore somatic/armour problems. make the spell list, call it divine. doesn't many necro spells are already, and evocations show up on doamin lists all the time, so they CAN be divine. solves all your ASF problems (cheapest trick in the book, but its not worth monkeying around with it, if you want a heavy armoured person, and you want spells, go divine)

as for your sacrificing hp to deal extra damage:

Dark Smite: (useable at a rate similar to black guards smite good)
deal you self 1d6 damage to deal and extra 2d6 (+1d6 every ? levels OR +CHA what ever) negative energy to your next attack


something like that

Rykaj
2005-12-16, 09:02 PM
I've never played FF except for part 1 so I don't know what dark knights are exactly, but this is from what I gathered.

To me it sounds like some sort warrior betrayed and then fueled by anger. I don't think he needs spells at all, just give him some flashy special abilities. Here are some suggestions of the top of my head.

Deadly immolation: A fire spreads forth from you that spreads out to 15 foot around you. Everyone caught in the area suffers 6d6 fire damage. A reflex save of 10+half class level+cha modifier for half damage.

Bloodrage: If you take 2 consequent full-round actions to draw blood from yourself and let it run down your weapon your power attacks will deal 3 times the number you subtract from your attack bonus in damage for 5+cha modifier rounds. This action will leave a bleeding wound that deals 2 damage every round for the duration of the bloodrage. This ability only works for two-handed weapons.

I'm sure there plenty more to think of. For prerequisites I think Larrin is on target. Keep us informed!

Seraph
2005-12-16, 10:24 PM
I've never played FF except for part 1 so I don't know what dark knights are exactly, but this is from what I gathered.

To me it sounds like some sort warrior betrayed and then fueled by anger. I don't think he needs spells at all, just give him some flashy special abilities. Here are some suggestions of the top of my head.



well, he can cast spells because he's meant to be a port of the Dark Knight class from Final Fantasy, and the class in XI casts low-level black magic (offensive spells) in addition to his other abilities.


good suggestions, but I don't think that the Darkside attack (the name of the attack to sacrifice HP for extra damage) should have a per-day ability like the smite [alignment] attacks of blackguards and paladins, as they're taking damage in return for the extra damage.

so far, what I have is good fort and will saves but poor reflex, the same spells/day progression as the blackguard, spells based on Intelligence, and it's a 10 level PrC, with the prereqs that Yuki posted. Dark Knights take spells from the wizard spell list, but can only learn spells of the Evocation and Necromancy schools.

Venatius
2005-12-17, 01:10 AM
Concept clash is always my biggest beef with homemade prestige classes. What is this class that, say, a Blackguard isn't? If the only available answers revolve around class features, it's just a rehash. Sometimes those are good. Heck, sometimes they're NECCESSARY, if the class it's similar to sucks abilitywise. But after seeing umpteen-hundred different "ninja" and "samurai" classes in the OFFICIAL books alone, classes that, for purposes of role and theme, already exist and are still getting made, have become a pet peeve. If this can't really strongly differentiate itself somehow, it probably needs some flavor fleshed out. Really, unless you deviate from the FF basis, that's gonna be hard, because I really don't see good ol' Cecil as being represented by anything better than a Blackguard (or possibly the Paladin of Tyranny variant from Unearthed Arcana).

Seraph
2005-12-17, 02:25 AM
Concept clash is always my biggest beef with homemade prestige classes. What is this class that, say, a Blackguard isn't? If the only available answers revolve around class features, it's just a rehash. Sometimes those are good. Heck, sometimes they're NECCESSARY, if the class it's similar to sucks abilitywise. But after seeing umpteen-hundred different "ninja" and "samurai" classes in the OFFICIAL books alone, classes that, for purposes of role and theme, already exist and are still getting made, have become a pet peeve. If this can't really strongly differentiate itself somehow, it probably needs some flavor fleshed out. Really, unless you deviate from the FF basis, that's gonna be hard, because I really don't see good ol' Cecil as being represented by anything better than a Blackguard (or possibly the Paladin of Tyranny variant from Unearthed Arcana).


as far as I can remember, cecil in the US version didn't have any of the Dark Knight abilities. this PrC is more in relation to Gafgarion and the later Dark Knights in the series, especially the FFXI class, neither of which is really comparable to anti-paladins at all.

Seraph
2005-12-17, 11:43 PM
okay, so I've come a bit farther on it. to elaborate on my last post, what I meant was that anti-paladins still follow a code of honor, whereas Dark Knights are more of people who have embraced the darker part of their personality.

Gaff Gafgarion (Final Fantasy Tactics) is a good example of this - he's not exactly evil, but all he cares about is money and power and will do any job to get those assets, be it rescue a princess from brigands or aid an archfiend in taking over the world, and will do either with equal gusto so long as he gets paid.

so, on to the abilities so far:

Dark Strike: a Dark knight may deal their own weapon's non-critical damage to themselves, not adding strength bonus, to add their total class levels to damage. this counts as a full attack, but only deals one attack roll to the enemy.

Reckless assault: a Dark Knight may sacrifice AC to add to their attack rolls. the total points of AC sacrificed equals the bonus to attack, but may not exceed the Dark Knight's class levels. the Dark Knight must wait 1d4 rounds to regain the sacrificed AC.

Draining Strike: once per day, a Dark Knight may make an attack and heal themselves the amount of damage dealt.

good fort and will saves, poor ref saves, BAB as Blackguard, casts evocation and necromancy spells and spellcasting depends on INT.

Deleran
2005-12-18, 12:04 AM
An arcane spellcaster? Isn't that a little counterproductive? I mean, I'm all for tension between class abilities in the right situation, but I'm not sure this is it.

Nerd-o-rama
2005-12-18, 02:31 AM
Hmm...

Monkey Grip.
Divine Rank.
Clone and Dominate Protagonist spells.

That's all you need for what most people think of when they hear Dark Knight, hell, when they hear Final Fantasy at all.

In all seriousnness, your class sounds interesting. Actually, I'm only vaguely knowledgeable about FFT and FFXI (personally, I'm an SNES man.) However, a few notes on the balance of your abilities so far:

Dark Strike: Your wording is a bit confusing. How about...
"As a full-round action, the Dark Knight may make a single melee attack against an enemy. This attack deals damage to the enemy as normal, plus bonus damage equal to the Dark Knight's class level. In return, the Dark Knight takes damage equal to what was dealt to the enemy, less any bonus damage from a high STR modifier and the bonus from Dark Knight class levels. The damage to the Dark Knight from this attack is not multiplied on a critical hit, though damage to his target still is."

I'd consider making this a regular attack, rather than a FRA. After all, you could get more damage from multiple attacks, but without having to hurt yourself. Also note that this ability alone will guarantee that every Dark Knight will use a two-handed weapon, since bonus damage from Str is applied to their enemy (one and a half times, in the case of a 2H weapon,) but not them. That's alright though, since it fits the flavor of the class.

Reckless Assault: This is exactly like Combat Expertise, but in reverse. Thus, I don't think the 1d4 rounds of delay is really necessary. Also note that this ability's flavor could be emulated somewhat with a barbarian's rage; take an AC penalty and eventual fatigue for damage and bonus hit points.

Draining strike: Are you aware of just how much damage one can do with a single melee attack? I'd say put a cap on the damage healed, though perhaps it's balanced as is, since it's a 1/day ability, and presumably high level.

Spellcasting: give them an Assassin's casting ability (spells known and spells per day, four levels, INT-based) but use a different spell list...perhaps the first four levels of Warmage, which is pretty mcuh all evocations?

Seerow
2005-12-18, 02:38 AM
Okay, FFT's Dark Knight has TWO, count them TWO abilities. One that drains HP from the enemy, and one that drains MP from the enemy. Both at a range with damage equal to weapon attack.

FFT's Dark Knight can't even equip Knight Swords (Which everyone seems to equate here with large two handed swords)

FFT's Dark Knight has medium PA.

Also, nowhere was it ever implied that Gafgarion was betrayed or betrayed anyone (He's a mercenary, who is he betraying and still getting paid? Mercenaries tend to be honorable and complete their jobs to keep a reputation).

Now, going by these things from the game you want to base it on... I see nothing at all in this topic in the least relating to it. Not even in the original post.

I suggest either make it go by a different name, or at least make it -something- similar to what it originally was. Thanks.

Seraph
2005-12-18, 02:55 AM
Okay, FFT's Dark Knight has TWO, count them TWO abilities. One that drains HP from the enemy, and one that drains MP from the enemy. Both at a range with damage equal to weapon attack.

FFT's Dark Knight can't even equip Knight Swords (Which everyone seems to equate here with large two handed swords)

FFT's Dark Knight has medium PA.

Also, nowhere was it ever implied that Gafgarion was betrayed or betrayed anyone (He's a mercenary, who is he betraying and still getting paid? Mercenaries tend to be honorable and complete their jobs to keep a reputation).

Now, going by these things from the game you want to base it on... I see nothing at all in this topic in the least relating to it. Not even in the original post.

I suggest either make it go by a different name, or at least make it -something- similar to what it originally was. Thanks.



I wasn't basing the class entirely on FFT, but basing a lot of it on FFXI. the class has so few abilities in tactics because it's a class that's only useable for about ten minutes in game, and only useable in the sense that gafgarion, an AI controlled 'bot, joins up for three missions until he stabs you in the back and joins the opposition, therefore nullifying any reason to give it an extended list of skills.

the FFXI class, when earned, grants proficiencies in scythes, heavy armor, greatswords, and allows the casting of low level black magic.


also, considering gafgarion, he did both things I mentioned (protected ovelia from people trying to kidnap her and then tried to keep ramza from stopping Queklain). according to the little stub on him written in the background story, he was booted out of an order of knights for being too bloodthirsty, and there was the whole Zirekile falls incident.

Jothki
2005-12-18, 05:32 AM
FFX-2 also has a somewhat fleshed-out version of a Dark Knight, you might want to check that one out too.

Seraph
2005-12-18, 05:49 PM
FFX-2 also has a somewhat fleshed-out version of a Dark Knight, you might want to check that one out too.


I refuse to acknowledge FFX-2 as part of the Final Fantasy series for reasons of taste.

Seerow
2005-12-18, 11:07 PM
I wasn't basing the class entirely on FFT, but basing a lot of it on FFXI. the class has so few abilities in tactics because it's a class that's only useable for about ten minutes in game, and only useable in the sense that gafgarion, an AI controlled 'bot, joins up for three missions until he stabs you in the back and joins the opposition, therefore nullifying any reason to give it an extended list of skills.

the FFXI class, when earned, grants proficiencies in scythes, heavy armor, greatswords, and allows the casting of low level black magic.


also, considering gafgarion, he did both things I mentioned (protected ovelia from people trying to kidnap her and then tried to keep ramza from stopping Queklain). according to the little stub on him written in the background story, he was booted out of an order of knights for being too bloodthirsty, and there was the whole Zirekile falls incident.


FFXI, bleh.

But the class only showing up a few times isn't an excuse for the lack of skills. Look at all the Zodiac Monster skillsets that show up for one fight and have extensive lists of abilities. It also doesn't change that the class is incapable of equiping Knight Swords in game, even when sharked into a point later in the game.

As for helping Queklain, there is nothing to suggest he had any idea that Cardinal Draclau was a demon at all. Draclau was the one paying him from the start, his target was the princess, and you could presume had Delita not shown up and kidnapped Ovelia for the Nanten, Gafy would have taken her at some later point away from Agrias. The only deception I see here is Ramza, and presumably Rad, not being told the mission they're sent on.

Both of the above are Gafy selling his services to the highest bidder.

Seraph
2005-12-19, 10:35 PM
I made the first post and are making the PrC, so, really, I win by default anyway. I suggest you stop since you won't win.

Thomas
2005-12-19, 10:57 PM
I made the first post and are making the PrC, so, really, I win by default anyway. I suggest you stop since you won't win.


???

Things just got psychedelic. What do you win? Why should people stop? I tried re-reading the above posts, but I can't even figure out who and what statement you are replying to.

Venatius
2005-12-20, 01:03 AM
I made the first post and are making the PrC, so, really, I win by default anyway. I suggest you stop since you won't win.


You know, there are some cases where other people only manage to hit a nerve because one sticks said nerve right in their path. Let's not do that. No one's competing. And if this is in response to the previous post, then ignoring a point doesn't make it go away. If I declare that I'm making a class based on the Fremen from Dune and someone points out the ability to grow flowers out their armpits isn't exactly accurate, I'm wrong, even if I'm making the PrC.

Seraph
2005-12-20, 07:06 AM
You know, there are some cases where other people only manage to hit a nerve because one sticks said nerve right in their path. Let's not do that. No one's competing. And if this is in response to the previous post, then ignoring a point doesn't make it go away. If I declare that I'm making a class based on the Fremen from Dune and someone points out the ability to grow flowers out their armpits isn't exactly accurate, I'm wrong, even if I'm making the PrC.


except that I am right because I said I'm basing this on FFXI, where DRKs can equip heavy weapons and scythes and have the abilities I mentioned, and someone came along and said "no they don't" and used a different source then me as evidence.

Venatius
2005-12-20, 12:27 PM
except that I am right because I said I'm basing this on FFXI, where DRKs can equip heavy weapons and scythes and have the abilities I mentioned, and someone came along and said "no they don't" and used a different source then me as evidence.

XI, eh? I quite literally misread that. Very well then, that. But do you think you could clarify how exactly these differ, themeatically, from a Blackguard? I mean, that covers the generic "evil supernatural warrior" VERY heavily. They aren't even really antipaladins, although paladinic converts do gain special abilities (inappropriately, IMHO, considering the two aren't opposites). And as a sidenote, "I'm right" is never a phrase that promises a mature debate, so let's please try to keep the gloves on, people.

TimeWizard
2005-12-20, 01:56 PM
Back to the point.

Since ff4 was rereleased i also wanted to make my favorite FF hero a dnd character.

Instead of getting needlessly complicated, and trying to stay loyal to CECIL, not gafgarion or FFXI, i see no reason to give the Dark Knight arcane casting abilities- DnD needs another melee/caster crossover like it needs a new elf subrace. I mean, if you wanted to do that why not just roleplay out a Hexblade ?

My Dark Knight is a no magic melee fighter with some supernatural (albeit spell like) abilities. (i was thinking base class for mine, since my group is heavy into making our own stuff- so the abilities reflect that)

Dark Strike The DK must declare he is using this ability before attacking an enemy. If the DK hmakes a succesful melee attack against an enemy, he may inflict up to half his class level d6 of damage to himself. This self damage cannot be prevented or redirected in any way. His opponent is dealt twice the amount of this damage. It is evil for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. it is not doubled on a critical hit. 3+cha mod per day.

Drain on a successful melee touch attack - roll damage normally. You gain life equal to damage dealt this way. Damage reduction does not apply to this damage. fort save half, dc 10+class lvl+ cha. TImes per day:?

Death in Check A DK that is dropped below 0 health (but not dead) becomes stable next round.

Aura of Fear enemies with less hd then your Class level must make a will save to attack you. DC 10+ class lvl+ chamod. enmies may attack your allies normally. While AoF is active you gain +5 morale bonus to intimidate checks to frighten your enemies. Standard action, consumes 1 hp per round while active, dispelling it is a free action that may be used on your turn only.

Soul Stealer The DK absorbs the souls of enemies slain by him. He is healed 2 hp per HD of slain enemy. In addition, souls taken this way can not be resurected, unless freed by DK, or by a WISH spell. All collected souls are freed if DK dies. each melee attack by the DK deals an extra 1 damage for each sould taken in the past 24 hours, to a max of his Class level.

What do you think? im open to suggestions. I didnt include BAB and saves- just use a warriors. standard non good alignment and such. RIght now im just brainstorming abilities

Seraph
2005-12-20, 04:32 PM
XI, eh? I quite literally misread that. Very well then, that. But do you think you could clarify how exactly these differ, themeatically, from a Blackguard? I mean, that covers the generic "evil supernatural warrior" VERY heavily. They aren't even really antipaladins, although paladinic converts do gain special abilities (inappropriately, IMHO, considering the two aren't opposites). And as a sidenote, "I'm right" is never a phrase that promises a mature debate, so let's please try to keep the gloves on, people.


mechanically, Blackguards are AntiPaladins - they get all the bonuses paladins do, only differently named. moreover, the flavor of a blackguard - hell, the SRD - outright says they're villains. they also have a thing about purposely contacting and dealing with demons and devils.

a Dark Knight isn't neccesarily a villain, they just lack strong morals and have unscrupulous abilities. they also don't deal with fiends, they learn their powers.

for example:

Blackguards must be evil. I put alignment requirements as "any nongood" because Dark Knights aren't outright evil, they just lack most of the qualities that define good.

Sir_Banjo
2005-12-20, 10:13 PM
Look at the Blackguard from the DMG and Suel Arcanimarch from Complete Arcane. The Suel Arcanimarch has its own spell list, which may provide you with the inspiration you need. By changing the black guards spell list to one like this classes and perhaps taking away the sneak attack to compensate for the sexier evocation spells included in the new spell list.