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View Full Version : DMs, what would you do?



Eon
2009-07-06, 06:14 PM
I was in my friends game today and we were in the 4.0 DMG premade adventure. We got to the 4th? room when all we saw was a boulder and a wall in the center. Me, thinking there was enemies up there and being a awesome archer ranger, fired an arrow up there and rolled a natural 20. Because my friend said a critical is when you aim and hit something he counted it as a normal die roll but also gave me a -10 to the roll making it a miss. I saw this as unfair. What would you have done?

FoE
2009-07-06, 06:16 PM
What was the ranger aiming for? The boulder.

"Congratulations. You struck the boulder. The arrow bounces off and shatters. Remember to deduct that arrow from your Character Sheet."

Eon
2009-07-06, 06:17 PM
anything up there or beyond in the room below (which we found out about when the rogue went up)

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-06, 06:18 PM
...

What was the archer shooting? You need to actually specify a target in 4e.


anything up there or beyond in the room below (which we found out about when the rogue went up)

Yeah, that... that doesn't work. Really. I wouldn't have even let you roll the die - there is no way you would have hit anything because you weren't attacking anything.

Kurald Galain
2009-07-06, 06:19 PM
archer ranger, fired an arrow up there and rolled a D20. Because my friend said a critical is when you aim and hit something he counted it as a normal die roll but also gave me a -10 to the roll making it a miss.

I'm missing something here.

He fired an arrow at what? What did he roll? Why is it relevant what a "critical" is? Why the -10, and what did he miss?

Eon
2009-07-06, 06:19 PM
well since we were technically in combat and I figured that might be a good idea it was worth a shot.

Eon
2009-07-06, 06:21 PM
oops forgot to add that I rolled a natural 20 :smallredface:

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-06, 06:22 PM
If you did it in combat it's even worse.

I could maybe excuse shooting an arrow "out of combat" and seeing if it hits anything, but in combat? You have to at least target a square, rather than "that area over there".

FoE
2009-07-06, 06:23 PM
So you walked into a room and thought "Hey, there might be a monster nearby!" And then the ranger fired an arrow at nothing in particular, somehow assuming that it would just, you know, hit something?

...

Yeah, you guys need to stop drinking while you play D&D.

evisiron
2009-07-06, 06:24 PM
If you are not choosing a specific target you can see, you generally can't get a critical.

And if I understand the post right, you were firing indirectly, so a penalty seems like a sound idea. From what I have read, I would have done the same thing as DM.

erikun
2009-07-06, 06:26 PM
Well, the first problem is that you're asking how I'd rule on a houserule only your DM uses - I'm not quite sure how I'd answer that, as I wouldn't use the rule to begin with.

Secondly, if you decided to shoot "anything up there" and there wasn't anything there, your shot would just go over the boulder and hit the far wall; simple enough. If you were hoping for a lucky shot to hit a kobold on the other side, I'd say your DM was being generous: a -10 to hit something you weren't aiming at and didn't know was there is a pretty good deal. (As I said, I would rule your arrow just hit the far wall, which would alert whatever is over there, if the fighting hadn't already.)

Kurald Galain
2009-07-06, 06:30 PM
oops forgot to add that I rolled a natural 20 :smallredface:

In that case I would have let you hit whatever creature was up there, yes (assuming there was one to begin with). But by a strict reading of the rules, you wouldn't. DM's call, honestly.

Eon
2009-07-06, 06:31 PM
okay thanks for the clarification guys...


and no we were not drinking, it just seemed like a good idea at the time:smallredface:

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-06, 06:31 PM
In that case I would have let you hit whatever creature was up there, yes (assuming there was one to begin with). But by a strict reading of the rules, you wouldn't. DM's call, honestly.

Why? He wasn't really rolling for anything. He was "shooting an arrow into a random area" - which is an automatic success and doesn't require a roll. It also doesn't achieve anything in particular except maybe a broken arrow.

-Cor-
2009-07-06, 06:35 PM
I don't think I would've given you anything for that poke and hope other than you wasted an arrow... even rolling a 20.

If you aimed at a specific square and there was something in that square, a -10 seems reasonable because, and correct me if I'm wrong which I may be as I don't have a screen in front of me, Superior Cover provides a -5... and Total Concealment is a -5... while something typically only benefits from one, I'd say they'd stack in this case.

Kurald Galain
2009-07-06, 06:35 PM
Why? He wasn't really rolling for anything. He was "shooting an arrow into a random area" - which is an automatic success and doesn't require a roll.

Why? Because I like having funky stuff happen on a crit or fumble. When a player does something unusual and crits, I try to at least fluff it like he did something awesome (or, in case of fumble, something awkward). E.g. if this were outdoors, he could have hit a bird overhead, thus ensuring dinner for the night.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-06, 06:39 PM
So if you were, say, in a totally different scene outdoors, and one of your players randomly rolled a die for no reason and said "I make a Perception check! Hah, natural 20!", what would you do?

It really comes down to the same thing. A player is rolling the dice for no adequately explored reason.

-Cor-
2009-07-06, 06:44 PM
So if you were, say, in a totally different scene outdoors, and one of your players randomly rolled a die for no reason and said "I make a Perception check! Hah, natural 20!", what would you do?


You finally recognize the exact shape of that microscopic piece of dust that's been suspended in your eye fluid that every time you try to focus on it, it floats away.

Congratulations...

Alternatively... Hey! That tree stump looks like Pelor!

Kurald Galain
2009-07-06, 06:46 PM
So if you were, say, in a totally different scene outdoors, and one of your players randomly rolled a die for no reason and said "I make a Perception check! Hah, natural 20!", what would you do?
If the player rolls a die for no reason, nothing happens.

If the character tries something unusual and the player rolls a crit, something nice happens.

A subtle distinction. The key is, of course, that if players do this all the friggin' time (which in my experience they never do) then it wouldn't work.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-06, 06:47 PM
That's actually not dust. How would dust get in there? It's just a coagulation of your eye fluid.

There's a proper name for it but it escapes me right now.

Most people have them at some point or another. Most of the time they just dissolve back into the fluid, although I've had one that's been with me for over ten years now...

(Wow that was off-topic.)

Froogleyboy
2009-07-06, 06:48 PM
Is this the same game that you wanted to quit?

-Cor-
2009-07-06, 06:50 PM
That's actually not dust. How would dust get in there? It's just a coagulation of your eye fluid.

There's a proper name for it but it escapes me right now.

Oh dear Ioun, you knew what I was talking about... :smalltongue:

erikun
2009-07-06, 06:54 PM
oops forgot to add that I rolled a natural 20 :smallredface:
Ah, missed this part.

In that case, I'd let you hit whatever was standing up there. Nat-20 is supposed to be a lucky shot, after all.

I still wouldn't let you hit anything behind the rock, though. :smalltongue:

Bibliomancer
2009-07-06, 07:01 PM
Rolling a natural 20 on Perception is different, because even out of game it would be an excuse for the DM to tell them something interesting about thier surroundings. As for a natural 20 attack roll at nothing, I would probably say "Congratulations. You hit a mosquito."

Flickerdart
2009-07-06, 07:06 PM
Natural 20 for Perception would have the DM launch into a long tirade about the flora, fauna, the quality of road cobbles and the backstory of the scenic signpost, bust still forget to mention the enemy army you walked into.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-06, 07:07 PM
Natural 20 for Perception would have the DM launch into a long tirade about the flora, fauna, the quality of road cobbles and the backstory of the scenic signpost, bust still forget to mention the enemy army you walked into.

Your DM was Tolkien?

amanamana
2009-07-06, 07:07 PM
...

Yeah, you guys need to stop drinking while you play D&D.

Hehehehehe... I remember a GURPS Supers game, maybe 10 years ago, high-powered. A group of 5 players and a GM, all wasted... we burned LA down!
That was fun! The part I remember, at least...:smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2009-07-06, 07:14 PM
Natural 20 for Perception would have the DM launch into a long tirade about the flora, fauna, the quality of road cobbles and the backstory of the scenic signpost, bust still forget to mention the enemy army you walked into.

Hm, that sounds familiar. I have had at least two DMs who would give a lengthy over-a-minute description of a room and detailed depictions of all the tapestries and candelabras therein, and then end with "oh yeah, there's also a dragon in the middle" as an afterthought.

Flickerdart
2009-07-06, 07:44 PM
Hm, that sounds familiar. I have had at least two DMs who would give a lengthy over-a-minute description of a room and detailed depictions of all the tapestries and candelabras therein, and then end with "oh yeah, there's also a dragon in the middle" as an afterthought.
Well, sure, everyone knows what a dragon looks like, but candelabras? That stuff you gotta hear about.

Swordguy
2009-07-06, 07:46 PM
Hm, that sounds familiar. I have had at least two DMs who would give a lengthy over-a-minute description of a room and detailed depictions of all the tapestries and candelabras therein, and then end with "oh yeah, there's also a dragon in the middle" as an afterthought.


Well, that's understandable. The GM has 2 choices. Describe the room first and the dragon last, so the players actually get a picture of the room in which they'll be fighting (to avoid these sorts of questions coming up in the combat). Or describe the dragon first and the room last, with the understanding that the players aren't going to listen to a word you say after "dragon".

Really, it's a no-win scenario for the GM.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-06, 07:50 PM
Well, that's understandable. The GM has 2 choices. Describe the room first and the dragon last, so the players actually get a picture of the room in which they'll be fighting (to avoid these sorts of questions coming up in the combat). Or describe the dragon first and the room last, with the understanding that the players aren't going to listen to a word you say after "dragon".

Really, it's a no-win scenario for the GM.

Describe them both at the same time. The tapestries aren't on the walls, they're "Framing the Massive Scaly Wings of the Dragon" the candelabras aren't sitting on a table, they're "Illuminating the creature's fearsome, scaly face". That nice rug isn't on the ground it's "Barely visible under it's massive mass, Green Body".

Makes things relevant to the obvious central point of the room (Mr/Ms. Breath Weapon)

Swordguy
2009-07-06, 07:55 PM
Describe them both at the same time. The tapestries aren't on the walls, they're "Framing the Massive Scaly Wings of the Dragon" the candelabras aren't sitting on a table, they're "Illuminating the creature's fearsome, scaly face". That nice rug isn't on the ground it's "Barely visible under it's massive mass, Green Body".

Makes things relevant to the obvious central point of the room (Mr/Ms. Breath Weapon)

Nice thought, but in my experience, as soon as I mention a monster in the room, the players instantly stop listening to whatever I'm saying and start conversing about ways to kill the thing. So I might get a half-sentence of description in there what the PCs will listen to, and then they're off playing Sun-tzu.

The_JJ
2009-07-06, 07:58 PM
and no we were not drinking, it just seemed like a good idea at the time:smallredface:

Ahh... that is the most wonderful phrase in all of human history.

Vaynor
2009-07-06, 08:06 PM
Congratulations, as you were aiming to hit the large area of ground, you succeeded! You scored a critical strike on it as well, the ground lost a hefty amount of hit points! Way to go!

:smallannoyed:

Eon
2009-07-06, 08:10 PM
Describe them both at the same time. The tapestries aren't on the walls, they're "Framing the Massive Scaly Wings of the Dragon" the candelabras aren't sitting on a table, they're "Illuminating the creature's fearsome, scaly face". That nice rug isn't on the ground it's "Barely visible under it's massive mass, Green Body".

Makes things relevant to the obvious central point of the room (Mr/Ms. Breath Weapon)

speaking of breath weapons, being a close burst... do they go in all directions or just one. The dragon breaths in a triangle shaped pattern or does it spin around fastly and hit everything?

Mr.Moron
2009-07-06, 08:14 PM
Nice thought, but in my experience, as soon as I mention a monster in the room, the players instantly stop listening to whatever I'm saying and start conversing about ways to kill the thing. So I might get a half-sentence of description in there what the PCs will listen to, and then they're off playing Sun-tzu.

Eh. Then shove your monsters in bland, featureless rooms. If it's not going to paid attention to or used no matter what you do, it's wasted effort. They be happy to get to initiative that much sooner and you can on spend more time or just not spend the time at all. Hey, who doesn't appreciate a chance to be lazy?

Berserk Monk
2009-07-06, 08:14 PM
Natural 20 always hits, although it doesn't always crit.

I do remember reading something in the Epic Level Handbook that says instead of an auto hit, you reroll the die and add 20, but that's usually just used for level 20 and beyond.

erikun
2009-07-06, 08:40 PM
Congratulations, as you were aiming to hit the large area of ground, you succeeded! You scored a critical strike on it as well, the ground lost a hefty amount of hit points! Way to go!
The planet had died. You gain 1,000,000 exp! All the oxygen has left the atmosphere! You must hold your breath or die from suffocation!

Fishy
2009-07-06, 08:42 PM
Eh. Then shove your monsters in bland, featureless rooms. If it's not going to paid attention to or used no matter what you do, it's wasted effort. They be happy to get to initiative that much sooner and you can on spend more time or just not spend the time at all. Hey, who doesn't appreciate a chance to be lazy?

I think I have your game. (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_orcandpie)



Natural 20 always hits, although it doesn't always crit.

I do remember reading something in the Epic Level Handbook that says instead of an auto hit, you reroll the die and add 20, but that's usually just used for level 20 and beyond.

That would be 3.5. The OP mentioned this was 4.0.

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 08:57 PM
I think I have your game. (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_orcandpie)

I'd play it, and then they'd find out that the keebler elves were actually gatekeeper orc druids. :smallbiggrin: It's a conspiracy people!


Nice thought, but in my experience, as soon as I mention a monster in the room, the players instantly stop listening to whatever I'm saying and start conversing about ways to kill the thing. So I might get a half-sentence of description in there what the PCs will listen to, and then they're off playing Sun-tzu.

Start having them stumble upon teenaged dragons that have "gone off to the corner to paw around amateurishly" :smalltongue: It'll be like when Redcloak and MitD were watching Durkon on Teevo. :smallamused: Only worse. Because they're captive due to their desire to want to kill them.

Hal
2009-07-06, 09:24 PM
Here's what I would do:

Let's say the boulder obscures a 3x3 square. Let's say there's 4 monsters in the 9 squares. I would roll a d10. If it came up on a number which represented a square the monster was in, it'd be a hit. I'd let a 0 (or 10) be a re-roll.

I don't like to have dungeons where the players walk in and shoot randomly at blank spots of the map. That being said, if I did something as obvious as "blank room with big rock in the middle," I can't punish the players for thinking to pepper the other side of said rock with arrows before whatever is hiding there decides to rush out.

Devils_Advocate
2009-07-06, 09:47 PM
Um, it strikes me as fairly realistic that a PC wouldn't much notice the tapestries on the walls when there's a dragon in the middle of the room.

The DM should be reporting to the players what the characters notice. Giving details that they wouldn't plausibly notice can sort of break immersion. Yeah, the details are there in the physical room, but not in the PCs' minds. A description of the room should wait until after the dragon is dealt with.

Basically, you don't walk into a room with a dragon in it and start examining the lighting. You walk into a room with a dragon in it and say "Woah! Dragon!" If the DM's narrative conflicts with that, it's sort of silly.

warrl
2009-07-07, 04:22 AM
So if you were, say, in a totally different scene outdoors, and one of your players randomly rolled a die for no reason and said "I make a Perception check! Hah, natural 20!", what would you do?

If you're applying the natural-20 rule to skill checks (I wouldn't), then on a natural 20 the player perceives something.

Perhaps there is nothing useful for the player to perceive.

In a forest, though, there'll be an insect on a fern or a small animal rustling leaves overhead. In a natural cave, there may be an exposed fossil or an oddly colored lichen or water dripping in the distance.

For the original situation, I as DM would:

(1) Roll D4. If it isn't a 1, the arrow shattered on a wall or the ceiling and we can stop. But I don't tell the player this.
(2) Roll D4 (assuming a 10-by-10 area up there) to randomly pick which square the arrow lands in. If there's nothing in the chosen square, we can stop, but still I don't tell the player.
(3) Adjust per standard rules for TOTAL concealment plus half cover. Yes, I'd stack them.
(4) Not consider the critical hit.

IF the player hit anything and it made a noise in response, or IF the shot simply startled something into making a noise (strictly DM call on that one), then I tell the player about the noise. Otherwise, "Okay. Next!"

Kurald Galain
2009-07-07, 04:36 AM
Nice thought, but in my experience, as soon as I mention a monster in the room, the players instantly stop listening to whatever I'm saying and start conversing about ways to kill the thing.

That matches my experience as well.

However, this strikes me as realistic: suppose that you were an adventurer that opened a door and suddenly came face to face with a dragon (or other monster). Would you then (a) carefully examine what else is in the room, or (b) deal with the friggin' monster right now? :smallbiggrin:

Once the beastie is dead, players tend to say "okay, we look around the room now".

kemmotar
2009-07-07, 04:59 AM
Actually, if there was anything actually there I would roll a percentage.. above 90% and you hit something if you bypass partial concealment from you not knowing where to hit. Then because of a nat 20 I would allow the hit...

You suspect there's something there, you shoot at it just because you're suspicious. You get extremely lucky and bypass probability to actually hit the right square and concealment...it's just that...an extremely lucky shot...