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Zangor
2005-12-03, 09:49 PM
For a few days now, I've been mulling over the idea of trying to play the Redwall Series in D20, but I need help! I'll post what I have thought up so far:

Classes:
No Casters, of course, and little magic outside of dreams and spirits and such, and possibly some badger-forged weapons. The very limited magic that is in Redwall would have to be role played instead of class features. Here's the list of base classes that'd probably be needed:

Fighter could probably be used as-is.
Some sort of Geurilla Class
Some sort ofRanger Class
Healer (Mundane healing, of course)
Commoner
Expert
Some sort of Mundane Paladin type class
Rougeish class
Swashbuckling type fighter

Any others? I think there should be more, but it's quite possible that char development would depend much more on skills/roleplaying.

And for Prcs:
Badger Lord
Guisom Shrew
Skipper of the Otters
Log-A-Log
Foremole
Tracker
Long Patrol Hare

Of course, the leadership based PrC's could easily just be a roleplay aspect

Races: (all are ECL+0 unless otherwise noted)

Mouse:
Medium Beast
Base Speed of 30
+4 Skill points at level one and +1 skill point at each level after
One Extra feat at level one
Favored Class: Any

I thought that the Mice would be the general "average" PC, since that's basically them in the books.

Otter:
Medium Beast
Base Speed 30 and Swim Speed of 40
+2 Dex -2 Cha: Otters are skilled but are often gruff
+1 Racial bonus to fort saves: Otters are usually hardy
+4 Bonus to swim checks
Weapon Familiarity: All otters are proficient with slings (or, if all classes are already going to be proficient with simple weapons, then otters get weapon focus, but I feel this may be overpowered)
Favored Class:?

I think they might be able to use a bit more, but this is the general feel I am going for. Maybe they should also have some sort of familiarity with Javelins?

Hare:
Medium Beast
+2 Dex -2 Wis: Hares are skilled but often lack common sense
Base Speed 40
+2 Racial Bonus to Hide and Move Silently: Hares are skilled at avoiding detection
+2 Racial Bonus to Listen: Those ears aren't for show, wot wot!
Quick-Footed: Hares get the benefit of the Run Feat for free
Enormous appetite: Hares require twice the amount of food as other beasts their size
Favored Class: The ranger type class seems about right.

I don't know, it seems that they, like the otter, are missing something.

Hedgehog
Medium Beast
+2 Con -2 Dex: Hedgehogs can take a beating, but they tend to be a bit uncoordinated
Base Speed of 30
Spikes: Any beast attempting to grapple a hedgehog (except another Hedgehog) takes 1d6 piercing damage.
Curl: A hedgehog may, as a move equivalent action, curl into a tight ball, granting a +3 natural armor bonus but leaving the beat flat footed. If the hedgehog is rolled into an enemy somehow, he deals 1d6 damage.
Favored Class: ?

Badger
Large Beast
+4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha: Badgers are strong and tough but tend to be gruff.
Base Speed 40
+2 To will Saves
Bloodwrath(ex): Badgers can enter a rage once a day. The rage grants +4 Str and 2 temporary hit points/ char level but takes a -2 modifier to AC.The hit points aren't lost first but are taken away after the bloodwrath ends. A badger in bloodwrath must make a DC 15 will save to avoid attacking friends who get in the way of getting to the enemy.
A badger greatly wounded (to 1/4 hitpoints, maybe?) must make a DC 15 will save to avoid entering the bloodwrath involintarily.
A badger may end his bloodwrath prematurely with a DC 15 Will save. After the bloodwrath, a badger is winded for the remainder of the encounter.
Skilled Smith: Badgers recieve Craft(Armour) and Craft (Weaponsmith) as class skills if they aren't already.
Favored Class: A fighter like class, obviously.
ECL: +2

This seems to preserve the feel of badgers without making them too out of reach to have in a party if it doesn't start at level one.

Mole
Medium Beast
+2 Wis, -2 Int
Base speed 20'/Dig speed 20
Darkvision 60'
+2 Cultural bonus to Knowledge (Engineering and Architecture) checks.
Moles Recieve Stonecunning as a racial feature
Digging claws deal 1d4/x2 slashing damage.
Favored Class:?

Can't really say much more except that Molespeak might be an intresting in game effect-- maybe some sort of check to understand what a mole is saying?


Squirrel
Medium Beast
+2 Dex, -2 Con: Squirrels are agile but frail
Base Speed 30/Climb Speed 30
+1 Bonus to Reflex Saves
+4 Bonus to Climb checks.
+2 Bonus to Jump checks
+2 Bonus to Balance checks
Favored Class: ?

Shrew:
Medium beast
+2 Dex, -2 Cha: Shrews are skilled and agile, but are very argumentative.
Base Speed 30
+2 Bonus to Proffesion (Sailor). This applies to sea vessles as well as the log boats used by shrews.
Weapon Familiarity: Rapier. All shrews are trained in its use.
Favored Class: The Geurilla type class seems ideal, obviously.

I'll get to the vermin races later, probably tomorrow. I think I'll include ferrets, stoats, and weasels all in one set of stats, though.


Oh, and the stats for the Sword of Martin would probably be something along the lines of a +2 Bastard Sword with an Aura of Courage.

Challenges would mostly be against vermin instead of having lots of monsters, but there could be adders and birds of prey.

Thoughts are appreciated-- I haven't really played much DnD at all, so I'm just trying to do my best based off of reading and theory-- is anything overpowered? Underpowered? I want to try to keep most the races except for badgers and maybe some vermin away from LAs, so keep that in mind. If I have to, I can go with +1's, though. I am especially looking for help with classes(since the lack of magic makes the standard classes fairly unuseable), but any help at all would be most appreciated.

Umael
2005-12-03, 10:16 PM
Oh dear lordie...

Umm... good luck?

Seriously, I can't think of anything constructive to say, just kinda impressed (although I shouldn't be surprised) that someone would get around to making a d20 for Redwall...

Omniplex
2005-12-03, 11:09 PM
Cool. I definitly like. Would the monks of the abbey be healers? I think Commoners and Experts aren't really worh mentioning as base classes. Might also make Abbot, and Redwall Champion PrC's too.

Some_Guy
2005-12-03, 11:18 PM
Well, I don't know much about Redwall, but I do know that a Squirrel character really shouldn't be able to climb faster than he can run...

"I start dashing along the wall to catch up with him!" and what-not.

The otter's swim speed seems similarly strange, but not as easy to abuse.

Also, Rabbits make for incredible archery-base rangers, with or without that being their favored class. The increased appetite is a big drawback for surviving in the wild, (can they eat grass? ;D) but their good dex and great speed, plus stealth and listen bonuses, mean they can avoid ambushes, ambush in turn, and dominate skirmishes.

Omniplex
2005-12-03, 11:56 PM
Hmm. Maybe one of the classes should be sort of like the scout from CAd. Anyhow, I think badgers seem a little underpowered for a +2 LA. Compare them to a Golaith, which is +1 LA. Maybe make them stronger, or give them some natural armor.

Zangor
2005-12-04, 12:28 AM
Oh dear lordie...

Umm... good luck?

Seriously, I can't think of anything constructive to say, just kinda impressed (although I shouldn't be surprised) that someone would get around to making a d20 for Redwall...
Thanks... I'm hoping that I can get this to work, as I know several people who love the series and I'd really enjoy running a game for it. With my limited DnD experience, it would be a good game to run with the lack of magic and stuff to worry about; plus, I know the Redwall world far better than I know DnD.



Cool. I definitly like. Would the monks of the abbey be healers? I think Commoners and Experts aren't really worh mentioning as base classes. Might also make Abbot, and Redwall Champion PrC's too.
Some of the Redwall monks would be healers, but I still think commoner could be used-- many of them aren't particularly skilled at anything; they do what needs doing around the abbey. It's their togetherness that is the main reason they do stuff so well.

Well, I don't know much about Redwall, but I do know that a Squirrel character really shouldn't be able to climb faster than he can run...

"I start dashing along the wall to catch up with him!" and what-not.

Well, in the books squirrels always disappear into the trees when fleeing, but it may make sense to decrease it. I mean, they are, after all, basically running with a lot of skill.


The otter's swim speed seems similarly strange, but not as easy to abuse.
In this case, I have to disagree. An otter's body is designed for fast movement in water; it's extremely streamlined and they have powerful tails to propel them in the water.


Also, Rabbits make for incredible archery-base rangers, with or without that being their favored class. The increased appetite is a big drawback for surviving in the wild, (can they eat grass? ) but their good dex and great speed, plus stealth and listen bonuses, mean they can avoid ambushes, ambush in turn, and dominate skirmishes.
Heh, hares do often act as skirmishers in the books, actually.(And to make a long explanation short, hares/rabbits does matter.) No, one would not eat grass (though one desperate hare does try in Salamandastron when he barters away his rations.)



Hmm. Maybe one of the classes should be sort of like the scout from CAd. Anyhow, I think badgers seem a little underpowered for a +2 LA. Compare them to a Golaith, which is +1 LA. Maybe make them stronger, or give them some natural armor.
I like the idea of scout, but I don't have CAd, and it's not OGL.
I think you're probably right about Badgers... what if I gave them +2 wisdom and the benefit of the toughness feat for free? Too much? Too little? Of course, I could always just reduce them to LA +1, which would open them up a bit more for PCs. (Of course, the DM would still want to be careful about allowing PCs to be badgers anyway.... they'd have to trust the player not to steal the spotlight too much.)

Jothki
2005-12-04, 01:18 AM
The dig speed for moles seems unreasonable.They are good tunnellers, but probably not THAT good.

As for badgers, give them powerful boosts and a high LA; they deserve it. Badgers are incredibly powerful.

You might want to bear in mind that almost everything that will be encountered, except for a few exceptions such as birds, will be humaniod. You might actually want to fully define every species as a possible pc, since evil campaigns would lend themselves well to this setting. Just be very, very careful about letting parties mix together vermin and non-vermin.

Zangor
2005-12-04, 01:24 AM
For badgers being extremely powerful, I was thinking that a lot of that would be covered in the Badger Lord PrC-- in game terms, just about all the badgers in the books were high level badger lords. However, I might combine this with just making the race extremely powerful. And I think you're right, I'll adjust the mole's tunnel speed.

I also agree about mixing vermin and non vermin. I can only think of one case in the books where a vermin ended up not being evil, his name was Blaggut, as I recall. (I forget which one he was in, but he ended killing his captain)

Belkarseviltwin
2005-12-04, 07:03 AM
I think Badgers need to be absurdly powerful.They shouldn't be PCs, though, ever. And, of course, they should be on a level with Wildcats. Martin (a 20th-level character if there ever was one) only just managed to kill a wildcat, and nearly died in the attempt. Badgers have only ever died by assassination, a fight with a wildcat, or being swarmed by hundreds of vermin.

And you neeed a Marlfox PrC. Rogues with axes...

Blade-Bearer_Ian
2005-12-04, 08:34 AM
There will probably be a lot of rangers, as a good number of the characters outside the Abbey come from the woods.

Moles I can see as experts
Badgers as barbarians or fighters (they remind me of Goliaths...), they also make good experts for arms and armour making.
Hares either fighters or rangers, or monks
Squirrels are easily rangers with the archery combat style
Otters always gave me the impression of a fighter/rogue/ranger mix, mebbe monk as well
Shrews are easily rogues, log-a-log probably has a few levels of fighter as well. (they all use rapiers for crying out loud!)
Mice are definetly the humans of the group.
Hedgehogs are aslo good barbarians

The vermine, on the other hand, could be anything...except the fox, which is obviously rogue/fighter...

and some of the books did feature druid-like vermine (every warlord needs a seer), so mebbe you could limit divine magic to scrying magic?

Marak_Knight
2005-12-04, 09:27 AM
Just a few suggestions.

I would probably not give straight weapon proficiencies to any of the woodland races as in the novels ive read most woodlanders had very specific weapons they liked to use. Maybe something like weapon focus with their racial weapons but extra penalties for using non proficient weapons.

Anyway heres some suggestions for racial weapons

Mice - Quarterstaff, Sling, Short Bow

Squirrels - Longbow, Javelin

Otters - Javelin, Sling, Shortspear

Hares - Composite Longbow(based off the Longbows used by Colonel Clary and Friends in Mariel Of Redwall), Longspear, Shortspear, Quarterstaff, Short Sword, Long Sword, Sling, Dagger(They do recieve a lot of military training and constantly practice so i thought it was fair to give them a bit more)l

Moles - Claw, Club, Warhammer, Flail (Based on the Mallet and Flail wielders in the novel with Urgan Nagru the Fox Wolf), Sling

Shrew - Rapier, Sling, Dagger

Hedgehog - Club, Sling, Great club (Havent really seen them use any other weapons)

Badgers - All Simple and Martial weapons (they are supposed to be great warriors after all)

Vermin characters should probably get more general proficiencies as in the novels they're generally armed with a wide variety of weapon types. The other way you could do it would be to say they were proficient with whatever weapons they start out with.

Stat wise the badger does seem underpowered compared to how they appear in the novels. I agree with Jathki on this point , badgers should be incredibly powerful compared to anyone else as several times throughout the series its pretty much them on their own or with a small group of allies versus a vermin horde and they either win or inflict massive casualties before dying.

The only other thing i can think of at the moment is that maybe hedgehogs should have a natural armour bonus anyway, maybe +1 or +2, and curling up increases it rather than granting it.

Other than that it looks great, good luck with getting it off the ground.

Zangor
2005-12-04, 11:50 AM
I don't think I want to limit the weapons that much, I mean, mice don't get swords, meaning Martin was being rather foolish weilding his legendary weapon! And I suppose I'll change the badger a bit, I just liked the idea that a good Roleplayer (one that the DM KNOWS would never munchkin or steal the spotlight) could play a badger in a slightly higher campaign. Though, I suppose if they're made more powerful, they still could be used in high level campaigns.

EDIT:

And you neeed a Marlfox PrC. Rogues with axes...
Hmmm, what about a modificiation on the Shadowdancer?

EDIT2:

What if badgers had the following racial features:

Badger Weapon
Badgers have one weapon they use beyond all others, usually a weapon that others cannot even lift. A badger uses a weapon sized for huge beasts. Badgers generally choose weapons such as greatswords or greataxes. In addition, a badger the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization Feats fo free with his chosen weapon.

Call of the Mountain
In a time of Need, a Badger might recieve a call from Salamandastron. He can instinctively head the way he needs to go to get to Salamandastron, even if he doesn't know where it is. Additionally, the call might pull him further from it first if there is a need to gather an army.

Jothki
2005-12-04, 01:31 PM
I just had a thought. Is Gullwhacker improvised? Is it still improvised after being used for however long it was used?

Marak_Knight
2005-12-04, 01:36 PM
Sorry i should have been more clear. *I was thinking more along the lines of what they would know how to use when they started out. *I'm not saying those are the only weapons they should be able to use, just that those seem the best proficiencies for them to start with based on what I've read. *Nothing to stop them taking more proficiencies later, after all even Martin had to take a few lessons before he got really good with his sword. *

EDIT

With the point you raised about Badger Weapons maybe instead of a special skill simply have it as a new class of item, sort of like a further improvement over master crafted. *If its going to be a very low magic system then item quality obviously becomes a much more decisive factor. *


Ive also been giving some thought to what Blade Bearer Ian said about the seer type characters that pop up occasionally (Mangiz being a case in point). *Perhaps the Adept NPC class with a modified spell list might be a way to show that within the game without unbalancing it.

hope this helps.

Omniplex
2005-12-04, 01:36 PM
A badger doesn't have to be the lord of Salamandastron. What about Orlando the Axe? You could have a badger PC, that's got a high LA, I'm thinking ~3, and have the lord of Salamandastron be someone different.

Zangor
2005-12-04, 01:44 PM
A badger doesn't have to be the lord of Salamandastron. *What about Orlando the Axe? *You could have a badger PC, that's got a high LA, I'm thinking ~3, and have the lord of Salamandastron be someone different.

Yes, but any Badger may, at some point, feel the call of the mountain if it's in need of a badger lord and they are the most worthy living badger to be lord, which is why I included it. Though I should probably just take it out and assume that the DM knows how to work a plot hook.

Jothki
2005-12-04, 02:10 PM
Yes, but any Badger may, at some point, feel the call of the mountain if it's in need of a badger lord and they are the most worthy living badger to be lord, which is why I included it. Though I should probably just take it out and assume that the DM knows how to work a plot hook.

It would probably be a non-issue anyway if the party isn't anywhere near Salamandastron.

That reminds me, the regions not immediatly surrounding Mossflower are not very well defined. The books involving other regions have them mapped, but has a map showing everything ever been published?

Zangor
2005-12-04, 04:19 PM
Well, a lot of it depends on the time period, but as far as I know, there haven't been any. That being said, I think somebody could put maps together well enough to make a basic campaign map.

EDIT: Here's my first try at vermin stats:

Rat
Medium Vermin
+2 Con -2 Int
Base Speed 30
+2 Cultural Bonus to intimidate
Recieves the Benefit of toughness at first level.
Favored Class:?

Weasel/Ferret/Stoat (They're similar enough that I think they can use the same stats)
Medium Vermin
+2 Dex +2 Con -2 Wis -2 Cha
Base Speed 30
+4 Bonus to Escape Artist
+2 Bonus to Hide
Favored Class:?

Fox:
Medium Vermin
+2 Wis -2 Cha
Base Speed 30
Low Light Vision
+4 Cultural Bonus to Bluff
+2 Additional Bonus to Bluff checks for Secret Messages
Favored Class: ?

Wildcat:
Large Vermin
+4 Str +2 Con +2 Int
Base Speed: 40
+2 Racial Bonus to Spot and Listen
+2 Bonus to Intimidate Checks
Two claws: 1d6 each
Bite: 2d4
Favored Class:?
ECL: I'll try to put this near where the badger ends up.

Now, what should I add to the wildcat to strenghten it? (And to the badger, for that matter)

Belkarseviltwin
2005-12-04, 05:12 PM
I just had a thought. Is Gullwhacker improvised? Is it still improvised after being used for however long it was used?
Maybe call it a flail or morningstar

The Glyphstone
2005-12-04, 05:22 PM
Probably a flail-ish weapon, dealing bludgeoning damage, maybe give it "optional reach" like a spiked chain...

NEO|Phyte
2005-12-04, 05:35 PM
It would probably be a non-issue anyway if the party isn't anywhere near Salamandastron.

That reminds me, the regions not immediatly surrounding Mossflower are not very well defined. The books involving other regions have them mapped, but has a map showing everything ever been published?

I think ive actually got a map somewhere, unless it got lost in the annals of time

Ferahgo
2005-12-04, 05:42 PM
Hmmm. A lack of magical healing is going to be kinda tough on PCs though, isn't it? They're going to have a hard time in combat-heavy campaigns. A healer-type class wouldn't be able to immediatly heal people without magical means, so it would be largly limited, it seems, to healers excelerating HP gained from bedrest. Well, that's all I can think of them being able to do.
Maybe it should be harder to hit characters at all?

Don Beegles
2005-12-04, 05:50 PM
I'd say for classes you could use:
Barbarian
Fighter
Rogue (This could be both guerilla/roguish character, if not use scout from CAd)
Swashbuckler(from CW)
Ranger (Make ability to substitute for Animal Companion)
Paladin (This would be tough to do without any magic and with the ride skill being negligible. Maybe just have anyone who wants a paladin be a LG fighter, instead, that works.)
What to do for a healer, I have no idea.

Commoner and Expert would be NPC classes, just like in DMG.

Jothki
2005-12-04, 06:07 PM
I'd say for classes you could use:
Barbarian
Fighter
Rogue (This could be both guerilla/roguish character, if not use scout from CAd)
Swashbuckler(from CW)
Ranger (Make ability to substitute for Animal * Companion)
Paladin (This would be tough to do without any magic and with the ride skill being negligible. Maybe just have anyone who wants a paladin be a LG fighter, instead, that works.)
What to do for a healer, I have no idea.

Commoner and Expert would be NPC classes, just like in DMG.

There is the issue of the 'heroes' not really being that more powerful than the commoners. Probably 2/3rds of the characters in the books, if not more, would actually start as Commoners.

That reminds me, a Champion of Redwall PrC really couldn't have any level-based prereqs, considering the variety of backgrounds of the holders of the title.

Omniplex
2005-12-04, 06:32 PM
I would say the requirement would be: must either possess, or undertake a quest to find, the sword of martin.

Zangor
2005-12-04, 09:28 PM
I would say the requirement would be: must either possess, or undertake a quest to find, the sword of martin.
Certainly. With a good DM, this wouldn't be handed out too early or anything, but a warning wouldn't be a bad idea when I write it up.

Jothki
2005-12-04, 11:20 PM
Certainly. With a good DM, this wouldn't be handed out too early or anything, but a warning wouldn't be a bad idea when I write it up.

Why not hand it out early? Isn't that half the point?

What would be the abilities? My thought would be standard fighter-ish but with the ability to either reroll a die or shift the result a bit.

Omniplex
2005-12-04, 11:30 PM
Maybe it could be like one of those Weapon Associated Prestive classes in Unearthed Arcana: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/legendaryWeapons.htm#battleScion
Not sure what the abilities would be, but some of them might me fairly supernatural.

Kantolin
2005-12-04, 11:52 PM
I'm also in the crowd of making Badgers strong, but not quite demigods... leaving the demigodness for the Badger Lord PrC. ^_^

Orlando the Axe was (If we were analyzing the book from a purely mechanical level) rather useless for the majority of it until it came down to killing things, in which he finally was able to actively do something. Badger Lords tend to be rather useful the entire time.

...minus bloodwrath. So probably keep them with a 2-3 LA for Badgers, and make the PrC the scary bit.

May I also mention, this rocks as an idea. ^_^ Redwall is awesome.

ImperiousLeader
2005-12-05, 09:49 AM
Man, I haven't read the Redwall books in ages. Favourite is still Martin the Warrior. Anyway, I did notice this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=522221&page=1) while lurking at WOTC. Might be helpful.

LurkerInPlayground
2005-12-05, 04:37 PM
Had it occured to anybody that most animals have a keener sense of smell than humans? Stealth is more than what you see and hear for an animal.

I also imagine scent plays an important role in tracking as well.

Marak_Knight
2005-12-05, 04:43 PM
It doesnt really come up in the books as far as i can see but its something you could incorporate if you wanted to emphasize the fact that the PCs are technically animals that walk upright as opposed to the more human portrayel they get in the novels.

Old_el_Paso
2005-12-06, 05:44 PM
You could make Courier and Archer Prestige Classes

kuja.girl
2005-12-06, 06:33 PM
You know, I wondered if anyone had made this yet the other day. The most recent book I read was Taggerrun or something, which was good, but I think I'm starting to out grow them.

Hmmm. A lack of magical healing is going to be kinda tough on PCs though, isn't it? They're going to have a hard time in combat-heavy campaigns. A healer-type class wouldn't be able to immediatly heal people without magical means, so it would be largly limited, it seems, to healers excelerating HP gained from bedrest. Well, that's all I can think of them being able to do.
Maybe it should be harder to hit characters at all?

Am I the only one that seems to remember that the Redwallers have ointments and meds for almost everything? A healer could easily carry around a medicine chest (here (http://horchow.com/products/mf/HCC1123_mf.jpg) is an example of one used in asia) filled with these ointments which could act like potions of "cure" or "healing" that are tweaked to maybe take longer to take effect etc...[hr] As far as sense of smell goes, I have to arguee agaist Marak_knight, I remember characters in the novels, the vermin in particular, often tracking by smell. This could be a seperate skill (not every one pays equal attention to how things smell) and give a synergy bonus to the survial skill when used for tracking purposes.[hr]
The nature of the Redwall books does not seem to be "epic" in true WotC terms. It gains an epic feeling from its stories of the small/weak overcoming incredible odds and often, numbers of the "vermin." So I would try to keep the levels low at least until you've played through a few games.
Good luck.

Zangor
2005-12-06, 09:42 PM
Why not hand it out early? Isn't that half the point?

What would be the abilities? My thought would be standard fighter-ish but with the ability to either reroll a die or shift the result a bit.

Not to early or whichever character possesses it will be too overpowered and then the other players won't be able to enjoy it as much.

Jothki
2005-12-06, 11:03 PM
Not to early or whichever character possesses it will be too overpowered and then the other players won't be able to enjoy it as much.

The sword itself doesn't really have any magical power, though as non-magical swords go, it is a very nice one. It would be the same as any badger-forged weapon, with maybe a bonus thrown in for being crafted of meteoric steel.

The real bonus is the spirit that comes with it, though what effect it would have in a D&D format would be debatable.

LurkerInPlayground
2005-12-06, 11:49 PM
You could play up the effect of various medical conditions so that they're more of a threat. That way, medicines become indispensibly valuable.

Poisons and diseases (Tetanus!, Tetanus!) of different sorts, come to mind. You could possibly make fire and burns more of a threat to characters, such that you need to treat them appropriately. And since magical fire no longer exists, it may be better for mundane fire to become more powerful anyway. You get the idea.

Zangor
2005-12-07, 05:49 PM
Here's another crack at Badgers...

Badger
Large Beast
+4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
+2 To all Saves
Bloodwrath(ex): Badgers can enter a rage once a day. The rage grants +4 Str and 2 temporary hit points/ char level but takes a -2 modifier to AC.The hit points aren't lost first but are taken away after the bloodwrath ends. A badger in bloodwrath must make a DC 15 will save to avoid attacking friends who get in the way of getting to the enemy.
A badger greatly wounded (to 1/4 hitpoints, maybe?) must make a DC 15 will save to avoid entering the bloodwrath involintarily.
A badger may end his bloodwrath prematurely with a DC 15 Will save. After the bloodwrath, a badger is winded for the remainder of the encounter.
Skilled Smith: Badgers recieve Craft(Armour) and Craft (Weaponsmith) as class skills if they aren't already.
Badger Weapon
Badgers have one weapon they use beyond all others, usually a weapon that others cannot even lift. A badger uses a weapon sized for huge beasts. Badgers generally choose weapons such as greatswords or greataxes. In addition, a badger the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization Feats fo free with his chosen weapon.
Badgers recieve the benefit of the toughness feat for free.
Badgers recieve the benefit of the Endurance feat for free
LA: +3

(Additions in bold)
Now, is this about the right power for a badger? And is the LA about right?

Dizlag
2005-12-08, 12:18 PM
I haven't read the Redwall series, but this thread is VERY interesting. Kudos to you, Zangor!

Would the ogre race be more in line with Badgers? Here are the stats from www.d20srd.org:

Ogres As Characters

Ogre characters possess the following racial traits.

* +10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.
* Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
* Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
* An ogre’s base land speed is 40 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Racial Hit Dice: An ogre begins with four levels of giant, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
* Racial Skills: An ogre’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 7 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Climb, Listen, and Spot.
* Racial Feats: An ogre’s giant levels give it two feats.
* Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ogre is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
* +5 natural armor bonus.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terran.
* Favored Class: Barbarian.
* Level adjustment +2.

It's a very powerful race when combined with character classes ... and that sounds like the Badgers you're talking about. The hits to INT doesn't sound like the Badgers you describe, so I'm not sure about that. You can use the level up table in Savage Species to make this a playable race and tweek it for your Redwall d20 campaign world. They'll be playing it as a "monster race" for six levels before even classing. I believe it starts off as medium in size with +4 STR and then gaines +2 STR at 3rd, 5th, and 6th level. And then finally becomes large at 5th level. Sorry, I don't have the level up table in front of me.

Also, a little more watered down version is the half-ogre from Savage Species as well ... LA +2, I believe. With a +6 STR, Large, and reach. So at fourth level, as player can finally class the race.

Just a thought! Good luck with it!

Dizlag

NEO|Phyte
2005-12-08, 12:46 PM
Another thing to remember about the badgers is that when they are in bloodwrath, they dont go down. Perhaps something similar to the deathless frenzy ability of the frenzied berserker?

also, the only stat I could see badgers having lowered is CHA, and even that wouldnt be by much

Belkarseviltwin
2005-12-08, 12:52 PM
I haven't read the Redwall series, but this thread is VERY interesting. *Kudos to you, Zangor!

Would the ogre race be more in line with Badgers? *
(Snip)

The Savage Species levelling Ogre is good, assuming that a level 1 Badger PC is actually a child. They gain Ogre levels as they grow to adulthood, and then a couple of levels of Fighter will give them all the prereqs for the Badger Lord PrC. We need to make some adjustments, though, like:
Take off the Int penalty. Badgers are master crafters.
Maybe only a -2 Cha penalty. Badgers are aloof but not as socially inept as a -4 cha would suggest.
Change the Favoured Class to fighter.

Zangor
2005-12-11, 05:44 PM
I dunno, I wasn't sure if Badgers should have racial hit die, though that's mainly because I have an even harder time balancing that. Though I suppose an Ogre without the int. penatly and a smaller cha penalty might work. How would eliminating those affect the balance, though? Also, I'd want to add some abillities ogres don't have that badgers should, though I suppose a kick in LA would help with that.

Dizlag
2005-12-11, 06:17 PM
Well, if I'm not mistaken the physical abilities (Str, Dex, Con) are worth double the others (Int, Wis, Cha). So, if you take away the -4 Int penalty, it would be worth +2 Str making it a +8 Str instead of +10 Str. If you make the -4 Cha, only a -2 Cha then you'll have to take something else away for balance. Hmmm ... would making the +5 natural AC a +4 natural AC be a good balance for that? Maybe. Now, because of the hit dice, the ogre starts with two feats. You could choose Toughness and Endurance, like you had in your post above.

What do you think? Are we getting closer? :)

Dizlag

Zangor
2005-12-11, 06:19 PM
How much would you say the Badger Weapon feature and Bloodwrath are worth?

Dizlag
2005-12-11, 10:16 PM
I would say the bloodwrath ability would be equivilant to darkvision 60' ... it's not a true barbarian rage in that the badger wouldn't be able to distinguish between friend or foe without a will save.

Now, about the badger weapon ability ... hmmm. It looks like it's a combination of the monkey grip feat and all badgers satisfy the 4th level fighter requirement for weapon specialization for simply being badgers. I like it a lot ... maybe just replace Endurance for Monkey Grip feat, but call it something different you know.

Let me sleep on it ... it's about 8:30pm here and my wife wants to start the Two Towers now. ;D

I'll post in the morning!

Dizlag

Dizlag
2005-12-12, 10:55 AM
Well, I've slept on it and have come to the same conclusion I had last night. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization shouldn't be given for free. Here's my reasoning ... the ordinary badger warrior would be able to use a weapon made for a creature one size larger, but wouldn't be able to use that weapon with precision without a bit of training. Ala levels of fighter, or I should say 4 levels and getting WS: Greataxe or WS:Greatsword at 4th level fighter.

So, to your original question about Badger Weapon and Bloodwrath worth. Badger Weapon is worth 3 feats and Bloodwrath is worth a special ability (like darkvision) or a feat or maybe even a hit die.

I wouldn't think Craft(Armor) and Craft(Weapons) as class skills would be unbalancing at all. It's a nice touch to the "flavor" of this race.

Dizlag

Zangor
2005-12-12, 10:43 PM
So what we have so far:

Badger
Large Beast
Racial Hit Dice: A badger begins with four levels of badger, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
+8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Bloodwrath(ex): Badgers can enter a rage once a day. The rage grants +4 Str and 2 temporary hit points/ char level but takes a -2 modifier to AC.The hit points aren't lost first but are taken away after the bloodwrath ends. A badger in bloodwrath must make a DC 15 will save to avoid attacking friends who get in the way of getting to the enemy.
A badger greatly wounded (to 1/4 hitpoints, maybe?) must make a DC 15 will save to avoid entering the bloodwrath involintarily.
A badger may end his bloodwrath prematurely with a DC 15 Will save. After the bloodwrath, a badger is winded for the remainder of the encounter.
Skilled Smith: Badgers recieve Craft(Armour) and Craft (Weaponsmith) as class skills if they aren't already.
Badger Weapon
Badgers have one weapon they use beyond all others, usually a weapon that others cannot even lift. A badger uses a weapon sized for huge beasts without a size penalty.
Racial Skills: 7X(2+Int. Mod, Min 1) Class Skills: Climb, Listen, Spot, Craft (Weaponsmith), and Craft (Armor)
Badgers recieve the benefit of the toughness feat for free.
Badgers recieve the benefit of the Endurance feat for free
(Instead, should it just be noted that these are often taken as the feats the HD give it?)
+4 Natural Armour Bonus
LA:+2? +3?

Dizlag
2005-12-13, 01:11 AM
Zangor,

It's looking really good. About your question regarding the feats ...



Badgers recieve the benefit of the toughness feat for free.
Badgers recieve the benefit of the Endurance feat for free
(Instead, should it just be noted that these are often taken as the feats the HD give it?)


It would depend on if you'll have this be a character race or just an NPC race. If it's an NPC race, then all the NPC Badgers would have Toughness and Endurance feats. Now, if it's a playable race, then that would be up to you because at 1st and 3rd level they would gain a feat. *goes to find Savage Species, looking at the ogre* And these two feats you can just put Toughness and Endurance in their places.

Ok, here's the ogre progression chart ... and after that I'll put my idea of the badger progression.

[hr]
OGRE
Clvl HD Saves (F/R/W) Skill Points CR Special
1 1d8 +2 / +0 / +0 (2+Int mod)x4 1 Feat, +3 natural armor
2 2d8 +3 / +0 / +0 2+Int mod 1 +2 Str, +2 Con
3 3d8 +3 / +1 / +1 2+Int mod 1 Feat, +4 natural armor
4 3d8 +3 / +1 / +1 none 1 +2 Str, +2 Con
5 4d8 +4 / +1 / +1 2+Int mod 2 Large size, reach 10 ft., +2 Str, -2 Dex
6 4d8 +4 / +1 / +1 none 2 +2 Str, +5 natural armor

Starting Ability Scores: +2 Str, -4 Int, -4 Cha
Speed: Ogre's land speed is 40'
Darkvision 60'

[hr]
BADGER
Clvl HD Saves (F/R/W) Skill Points CR Special
1 1d8 +2 / +0 / +0 (4+Int mod)x4 1 Toughness, +2 natural armor
2 2d8 +3 / +0 / +0 4+Int mod 1 +2 Str, +2 Con
3 3d8 +3 / +1 / +1 4+Int mod 1 Endurance, +3 natural armor
4 3d8 +3 / +1 / +1 4+Int mod 1 +2 Str, +2 Con
5 4d8 +4 / +1 / +1 4+Int mod 2 Large size, reach 10 ft., +2 Str, -2 Dex
6 4d8 +4 / +1 / +1 4+Int mod 2 +2 Str, +4 natural armor

Starting Ability Scores: +2 Str, -2 Cha
Speed: A Badger's land speed is 40'
Bloodwrath
Badger Weapon
Badger Crafting Weapons and Armor
[hr]

Now, just re-reading the ogre feats ... it says they get one at 1st and 3rd level, then after 6th they would gain more based on class level ( ie. 9, 12, 15, 18 ). I would say, the badgers would get a feat at 6th level and maybe take out the Toughness and Endurance feats above and just let the players choose the feats as normal at 1st, 3rd, and 6th level.

Whew! What do you think?

Dizlag

Jothki
2005-12-13, 01:44 AM
Natural armor? That makes little sense to me.

It probably wouldn't be needed, anyway. Badgers can just wear heavy plate if they want high armor.

I think that the 'weapon only they can lift' thing comes from them pretty much being the biggest creatures around. I see no reason to give them any bonuses there, since they are the only species that wields large weapons by default.

Zangor
2005-12-13, 10:22 PM
A lot of the natural armor was that they often seem to be slashed up without really taking much hurt from it, though I suppose that's probably just high HP.