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Umael
2005-11-22, 02:03 AM
Edit: Updated with a few changes. This changes are noted in bold.
Humanoid, subtype human.

Same as ordinary human except:

No bonus feat at 1st level.
No additonal 4 skill points.
No additional bonus skill point each time the human goes up a level.

Instead, the being (has no name) has:

• Teleport (Su): Once per day, as a full-round action, the being can teleport up to 30'. *Each foot up or down counts double towards this limit. *Teleportation does not provoke an attack of opportunity no matter where the being goes or from where it was.
If the location is not within sight, use the Teleport table, treating a result of "Similar Area" as a failed Teleport (the being goes nowhere and the use is expended for the day).


• Teleport upgrade: On 4th level and every three levels thereof, the being can improve her teleport capability using one of the following:
- Multiple times: Grants a number of additonal teleports per day equal to the number of times multiple times has been taken. *For example, if taken three times, the being can teleport a total of seven times per day (1 + 1 + 2 + 3).
- Improved distance: Doubles the distance each time improved distance is taken. Only may be taken three times.
(Originally was: Grants distance equal to 5' feet per time improved distance has been taken. *For example, if taken twice, the being has a teleport movement of 45' (30' + 5' + 10').)
- Faster travel: each time this ability is taken, the duration for which the teleportation takes reduces as given below
*First time - Teleport as a standard action
*Second time - Teleport as a move action
*Third time - Teleport as a free action
*Fourth time - Teleport as an swift action (was: immediate)
- Passenger: Grants the ability to take a number of additional passengers equal to the number of times passenger has been taken. *Each size category bigger than Medium counts double and each size category smaller than Medium counts half. *For example, if taken twice, the being could teleport with three Medium, one Large and one Medium, six Small, four Small and one Medium, and so on.
- Accuracy: Grants the ability to roll again whenever an unfavorable teleport result occurs. *The best roll of the set stands.
- Vertical freedom: No longer count up or down movement as double (i.e., one foot up counts as one foot towards the total).

Thoughts?

Gorbash Kazdar
2005-11-22, 02:09 AM
Interesting. From a flavor standpoint, I can only say ???, but balance wise it actually doesn't look too bad. It's basically a dimension door once a day at first level, with the additional restriction of teleport error. This can be powerful if used correctly, but if the DM accounts for it, it's hardly game breaking. It may be worth a +1 LA, though, since it can render certain standard obstacles and situations toothless.

Esclados
2005-11-22, 02:19 AM
I have to say teleporting as an immediate action would be a nice way to automatically avoid full attacks, spells, whatever. 'Course, this can't be done 'til level 13, and then only 4 times at level 19... but it's still amazing for a racial ability, which usually start to become less useful, rather than more, at high levels. Might want to cap it at a swift action at 3 'ranks'.

DeathQuaker
2005-11-22, 01:46 PM
Neat idea. Wouldn't use it, perhaps, for a standard high fantasy game but could work well in non trad settings. I agree about possibly adding a +1 LA. Have you playtested it?

thespyder
2005-11-22, 09:09 PM
that deserves a rather high lvl adjustment. the basic translation is as follows. if they have access to a zero lvl spell x/ times per day then it's a +0 character, if it has access to a 1st lvl spell x/times per day then its a +1 character. and so forth. so this would make them a +3? +4? this can always be adjusted back down to +0. for example give them a -4 str, -4 con and it'd be ecl +0. technically you could create a species that could cast "wish" once per day as a racial ability, but it'd be ECL+9 so yes, they could cast wish, but that would be their only trick. plus they wouldn't have enough XP to power the spell most of the time or they wouldn't lvl up with the rest of the party because of all of the wish uses.

Gorbash Kazdar
2005-11-22, 09:45 PM
I don't think it's really that powerful - it's a very nerfed version of teleport. In fact, it looks more like a nerfed version of dimension door. The issues of teleportation error greatly reduces certain advantages - like 'porting into closed off rooms. It's very dangerous with this ability. In fact, d-door is better in that case. About the best is 'porting over visible obstacles and getting to visible but difficult to reach places, and occasionally retreating to secure locations. It'd be a neat ability for a scout.

On the first read through I was pretty stunned by the idea and totally against it, but the more I thought on it the less it bothered me. Certainly not as useful in general as being able to fly, I'd say.

I do agree with Esclados that pulling it off as an immediate action is really nasty, even at higher levels. Swift is powerful enough, I'd say.

thespyder
2005-11-22, 10:16 PM
even dimension door would still make it ECL +4. the very specific limits on it would bring it down to a +3 no less with the lvl progression. unless you started using stat subtractions or weaknesses to balance it out.

mostly i don't understand the reasoning behind the species. why would humans develope a once-a day ability to teleport themselves 30 feet?

Umael
2005-11-22, 10:20 PM
To be honest, I hadn't researched my actions, so yes, consider that swift instead.

On other issues, no, I don't have any flavor yet, because I am wanting to see if the mechanics will work.

As the value of it being +1 LA, I wonder. It does increase as the being goes up levels, which makes it more potent, but at 1st level, it isn't that impressive. It does not give any kind of an edge in combat, the being will not be moving faster... basically, it's good for getting out of things like jails, or into places, like locked rooms.

...which can prove pretty confounding.

thespyder - where are you getting that it would be that powerful? If it was dimension door, that would make it LA +4, according to you. But it is much shorter in range, and you take much less with you. By the time it is powerful enough to be as fast as Dimension Door (standard action), and carry as much (two or three times), everyone is running around at 10th level or so, and it still can't go as far as Dimension Door.

Gorbash Kazdar
2005-11-22, 10:25 PM
I dislike a blanket assignment of a LA due to access to a spell - really, the actual game effect and utility of the spell should be examined and an LA determined based on how power the ability is. And certainly how often the spell can actually be used should be factored in - a creature than can cast magic missile 12/day is certainly should recieve more than an LA +1. On the flip side, being able to use ventriliquism 2/day would certainly not automatically qualify for an LA +1 in my book - the spell is simply not good enough.

For actual game affect, I wouldn't go over LA +2 for this race - the ability simply has too little real game effect, from my POV, to be worth much more.

Colt
2005-11-22, 10:45 PM
i think it's a sweet idea...

Umael
2005-11-22, 11:45 PM
I've modified it a bit, see the original post.

I have yet to play-test it, but at this point, I think it shouldn't be more than LA +1. My reasoning for that is as follows:

If I was given a choice between playing a 1st-level one of these and a 1st-level human, I would probably waiver, but pick one of these (although I would note that the bonus feat and skill points would be very nice).

If you upped the choice to a 1st-level one of these or a 2nd-level human, same classes, I would probably waiver and need a coin.

A 1st-level one of these versus 3rd-level human? Human. No doubt.

thespyder
2005-11-23, 12:19 AM
yea, i already agreed that +4 would be a bit much for the ability. mainly it's an ability that lets you bypass alot of the DM standard puzzles and traps. why worry about stepping on the pressure plates when you can just teleport past them? same thing for jails, etc. and yes, it's a power that becomes pointless after 7th lvl, even with the lvl progression. overall as a racial feature i'd give it the thumbs down mainly because the player would really regret choosing that race around 10th lvl. it's fairly overpowered for a low level group, and rather meaningless for a mid-high level group. as a rule i'd try to avoid giving a race a spell-like abilty thats too high of a spell lvl, they tend to make for poor characters. plus it's like playing a werewolf. the player becomes too reliant on their werewolf abilities and not reliant enough on their class abilities.

Sophistemon
2005-11-23, 12:24 AM
Interesting concept, but why would these creatures have such an ability rather than, say, a +2 to an attribute, which could be more easily explained?

Umael
2005-11-23, 02:34 AM
yea, i already agreed that +4 would be a bit much for the ability.

When I originally thought of the idea, I believed it would actually be LA +0. After hearing a few things that people have to say about it, I have to agree that it isn't that weak. But the question becomes, how high?



mainly it's an ability that lets you bypass alot of the DM standard puzzles and traps. why worry about stepping on the pressure plates when you can just teleport past them?

There is a few problems with that idea.

At low levels, the character can only use it once per day, and it takes a full-round to do so. This means you cannot use it to save yourself if a trap goes off, at least, not to avoid the immediate effects. Since many pressure plates are hidden, teleporting over them is not as effective a means for getting around them as some people might think.

At higher levels, the power becomes more flexible, able to be used further, faster, and carry more, but the traps go up in power as well. And since it no longer can be done as an intermediate action, a failed Reflex Save means its ouch-time no matter whether you can still use it that day or not.



same thing for jails, etc.

Until you get to higher levels, it doesn't do that much. A rogue with a hidden set of thieves's tools and a good Pick Lock skill can do just about as well. Furthermore, it doesn't allow for taking out guards, nor does it allow for taking your companions with you until you get higher in your levels.



and yes, it's a power that becomes pointless after 7th lvl, even with the lvl progression.

Really?

At 7th level (8th for the rest of the party), one of these creatures can get it as a move action. This means that a fighter can teleport behind enemy lines and do a surprise tactical assault on the enemy spellcasters. At 10th level (11th for the rest of the party), a fighter with Whirlwind Attack can use the free action teleport to drop in the middle of a swarm of enemies and do a 360-degree swath of destruction.

Mind you, that 's just with a fighter. I am sure clever players can come up with all kinds of uses for this ability at higher levels, especially as the usage increases.

Also, in Unearthed Arcana, they have variant rules for letting races with LA buy off those LA with experience points. Using that, the LA +1 would drop about the time it turns bad.



overall as a racial feature i'd give it the thumbs down mainly because the player would really regret choosing that race around 10th lvl. it's fairly overpowered for a low level group, and rather meaningless for a mid-high level group.

Overpowered?

From 1st-3rd level, it's a one-shot wonder, and not very wonderful at that. You and only you, once per day, full round. Keep in mind, this is 2nd-4th for everyone else.

4th-6th level, it is a little more flexible.

By the time you have hit the higher levels, you have a series of possibilities to this power. But let's say you are correct, and that it is too much of a sacrifice.

Like I mentioned before, there are variant rules for removing LA.

Also, if the progression hurts too much, maybe the progression can be increased. At 10th level, the bonuses occur ever two levels. At 20th level, every level. Maybe there should be some epic adaptations for this power. Making it an intermediate action. Allowing it to be used on objects. Allowing the objects to be teleported into other people (counts as an attack, can use sneak attack with it). Grant a displacement ability that is 5% cumulative, maximum 20%, lasts for one day, each increment of 5% costs one use.

Who knows?



as a rule i'd try to avoid giving a race a spell-like abilty thats too high of a spell lvl, they tend to make for poor characters.

If I was going to make this a spell, it would be maybe 2nd-level. Dimension Door is 4th.



plus it's like playing a werewolf. the player becomes too reliant on their werewolf abilities and not reliant enough on their class abilities.

Being reliant on something that can be used once per day? Maybe twice?

How is that reliant? It is a power, not a classification of nifty abilities, as you might find under "Werewolf."

If I had a character with that power, I would use it like an ace in the hole, not something that defined my character.



It honestly sounds to me like you are so adamant against it that you are unwilling to see any merit to it. By this I mean you have ruled against it and have simply decided to criticize it instead of saying "This part is wrong, you would have to fix this and this to make it better."

Umael
2005-11-23, 02:37 AM
Interesting concept, but why would these creatures have such an ability rather than, say, a +2 to an attribute, which could be more easily explained?

As I said before, I want to see how the mechanics worked. I could be that this ability is so powerful that it would make them LA +2, or maybe that it is just more than LA +1 but less than LA +2, so it becomes LA +2 after a few nifty powers, attribute boosts, or skill bonuses are added.

The first thing to do is make sure the power is balanced.

thespyder
2005-11-23, 04:12 AM
well i do admit that i am skeptical of new races until they've been explained fully and balanced. i still think the character would be atleast ecl +2.
my two major questions i guess would be
1. how do you plan on explaining how humans would develope such a specialized spell-like ability?
and..
2. what made you select this lesser dimension door spell as opposed to any other spell?

Vik
2005-11-23, 08:44 AM
I'd consider it to be worth a 3rd level spell, but then take a look at an Asimar :
* +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma.
* Medium size.
* An aasimar’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
* Racial Skills: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks.
* Racial Feats: An aasimar gains feats according to its class levels.
* Special Attacks (see above): Daylight.
* Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to acid 5, cold 5, and electricity 5.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Celestial. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Sylvan.
* Favored Class: Paladin.
* Level adjustment +1.

Saylight is a 3rd level spell. Ok, it isn't useful as a limited Dimension Door, but in compensation the Asimaar get two +2 stats bonuses, Resistance to 3 elements, skill bonuses, darkvision and a language.
So a +1 seems appropriate, and I'd even consider giving them some minor pluses : darkvision, a language, a skill bonus.

Seffbasilisk
2005-11-23, 12:43 PM
I think it'd be level adjustment +0. Blink dogs have level adjustment +2 (as cohorts) and they can use blink and dimension door as free actions then take a full round action. They can do it whenever they want and stop whenever they want unlimited times a day. He said they can do it ONCE a day WITH teleport limits. I'd say its fine.

thespyder
2005-11-23, 05:10 PM
yea, i keep forgetting that aasimars stink less in 3.5.
i think aasimars get their+1 status becaause the developers actually want to use them more in games. and remember their CR is the same as their class lvl so the improvements can't be worth that much. i think the ability to teleport yourself out of combat (as a swift action at higher lvls) is much more devastating than the ability to cast daylight. (daylight is a 3rd lvl spell not 4rth btw) but this is the same reason that water genasi were only given a +1 ecl even though they could breathe water. swimming and everything water related in 3.0 was soo broken that they had no problem creating a race that could bypass it for the benefit of their party.
i still don't understand the "why" of this racial ability. i think it'd be more interesting to see a half-elf with a +2 charisma, +2 wisdom, -2 constitution. it would make a race that is inherently better at being sorc's.

oh and the reason that blink dog's lvl adjustment is soo low is that they also have racial hit die and aren't really a playable race.

Umael
2005-11-23, 09:13 PM
i think the ability to teleport yourself out of combat (as a swift action at higher lvls) is much more devastating than the ability to cast daylight.

Teleporting 30' is not exactly getting yourself out of combat. It is useful in certain situations, like when trying to get away from a gelatinous cube that has you trapped at the end of a dead end corridor. But as a full-round action?

At 4th level, it becomes 60' as a full round action or 30' as a standard action. At 7th level, it becomes 120' as a full round action, 60' as a standard action, or 30' as a move action. At 10th level, it becomes 240' as a full round action, 120' as a standard action, 60' as a move action, or 30' as a swift action.

How does that compare to say, the monk? 40' movement and slow fall (20') by 4th level, 50' movement, slow fall (30'), and leap of the clouds by 7th level, 60' movement, slow fall (50'), and leap of the clouds by 10th level - and I don't hear you complaining about the monks being broken.



i still don't understand the "why" of this racial ability. i think it'd be more interesting to see a half-elf with a +2 charisma, +2 wisdom, -2 constitution. it would make a race that is inherently better at being sorc's.

1) I haven't gotten a "why" yet because I am still hearing all the "hows". How will this work? How will this affect game balance? How much should the LA adjustment be?
2) Great! Make your half-elf with +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom, -2 Constitution, favorite class: sorceror! Put it in a separate thread and we'll discuss it! Just... how does that relevant to this discussion?



oh and the reason that blink dog's lvl adjustment is soo low is that they also have racial hit die and aren't really a playable race.

The missing adjective is easily. They aren't really an easily playable race. For some games, they can work just fine, but the players and the DM have to know what they are doing.

Other than that, I agree. I also agree that comparing this variant human's power to daylight is erroneous because it gets more powerful as the variant human increases in level - the aasimar's daylight does not.