Books: hard to write, or easy?

[13_CBS]

There was a discussion on another thread here about whether or not writing fictional, novel-style books is easy. One side mentioned that it was an accomplishment worthy of praise, while the other said that, since so many people do it, and since book writing is fairly easy, it's not something worth throwing a grand party over.


For me, writing a novel-style fictional book is very difficult. In terms of writing style I could do...decently (or at least, reading it shouldn't be an exercise in overcoming the urge to vomit) but it's the world building and the plot that screw me up. I've yet to ever finish completing a fictional setting anywhere past the prototype stage, where things start falling apart. I can't stand creating a world where things don't make sense or don't have an explanation, and to make those things make sense or to explain them I feel as though I need doctorates in multiple fields of economy, sociology, history, etc.

For example, one time I tried building a fantasy world set ca. 1066 AD Western Europe, except without the presence of a large, organized religion (such as the Roman Catholic Church) since 400 AD. It went along decently until several people made me realize that the impact of not having something like the Church was huge. I tried handwaving it at first, but I came to realize that handwaving such a big issue wouldn't work, and then I realized that, to get around the problem, I'd need years of study in medieval history, economics, etc. So I eventually gave up. :smallfrown: (And I really wanted to write it, too...)


Thus, for me, writing a book is not easy. But what about for you? Is creating a 100,000+ words long fictional work easy for you? Would it be hard for you? Has it been easy or hard?

[Eldan]

Honestly? I've sat down trying to write a fantasy novel several times. While I can come up with worlds and settings that seem halfway interesting, as soon as it comes to characters and actual stories set in these worlds, my brain kinda stops working. I usually write half a page, then decide "this is all cliché crap and has been done to death" and give up.

[Agamid]

as a writer i would say that it's both depending on whether you have the inspiration. some days i can write 10-thousand words in a sitting, other days i can't write anything.

I think like any art form for some people it's just natural, but for other people it's a chore and very hard and you can suffer from creative block.

[Dallas-Dakota]

The writing of a original good quality(This includes research) book is hard, very hard. Worthy of ovation, if it's good.

[Telonius]

Writing a book is easy. All it requires is imagination, literacy, time, pen and paper and/or a computer. Writing a good book is a lot harder.

[Toastkart]

I've done it before, but I still have problems with plot and plot pacing. I think it's mostly a matter of what kind of writer you are. I, for instance, move into and out of zen state of consciousness (or peak experience if you prefer) while writing. Given my current (and its been this way for the past five or six years as well) situation of having 30+ hours of work and 20+ hours of undergrad and graduate school per week its easier for me to enter that zen state in short spurts, so I've been working mostly with short stories lately.

I think it boils down to how you write, what you want to write, and what kind of writer you are.

[Cristo Meyers]

My response to those people that try to dismiss writing a novel is no big deal is "OK, you do it." Large amount of the time those people don't even have the wherewithal to know where to start.

Even a bad novel is going to take a lot of work, a good one is going to take even more.

[Kalbron]

Writing a book is easy. All it requires is imagination, literacy, time, pen and paper and/or a computer. Writing a good book is a lot harder.

This. Very much this.

Anyone with enough time and motivation can slap together a lengthy enough story worthy of being termed a "book". Making that same story good however is a whole other issue which largely depends upon if you've got a decent editor and if you've any natural talent in regards to imaginative writing. The editor part however is nearly mandatory.

[banjo1985]

I've been reduced to a quivering jibbering wreck trying to write a novel, twice. It's very hard to write anything worthwile in my experience, and even harder to stick with it if you allow yourself to go back and read what you've written before you've finished.

Writing is easy. Just pick up and pen, or a keyboard. Writing something you think is good and that people will enjoy reading...right at the other end of the difficulty scale.

[truemane]

As others have said, anyone with a pen and some paper can just write words until they have over 100,000 of them. Just like anyone with a small round object can play soccer. But the people who do it better than everyone else are among the highest-paid and most admired people in the world.

And saying that lots of people do it so it's no big deal is astoundingly wrong-headed. How many people do it compared to how many people want to do it or try to do it? Lots of people get to be in the Olympics. Seriously. All kinds of them. There are just WAY WAY fewer than actually want to go or try to go or work really hard to get to go.

But I'm with Mr. Meyers. Someone says it's not big deal. Just say 'You do it.' Once there's a common basis for comparison, THEN you can have a conversation. Until then, there's just sour grapes.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

First I would like to point out that what was the start of the whole discussion was, in my opinion, a misinterpretation of someone's post. Below is the initial comment that sparked it all:



<snip>
Also just wanted to congratulate you on finishing a book. Definitely no small task.

Then people start disagreeing, because it is actually easy, as they say.

I think Myatar_Panwar meant (and if so, I agree) that there is a lot of effort, focus, determination and time needed to write a book. Writing this post is a small task, writing 100 (for example) pages that have some form of cohesion is different.

Just pointing this out because it annoyed me a bit.

Now, more on topic:
I could say that it is easy because all you need is imagination, a pen and some time, but I won't. For me, as well as for some other posters here, it may feel that way. This type of forum attracts the type of people that write a piece now and then.
However, looking at it in general and trying to imagine a lot of people I know writing a book, I'd have to say it is not easy: I am fairly sure (this is a guesstimate, of course) at least 80% of the people that live do not have the qualities to actually complete the effort. I think something only a small part of men can actually do can be called hard (or not easy).

[Jimorian]

This. Very much this.

Anyone with enough time and motivation can slap together a lengthy enough story worthy of being termed a "book". Making that same story good however is a whole other issue which largely depends upon if you've got a decent editor and if you've any natural talent in regards to imaginative writing. The editor part however is nearly mandatory.

Have to REALLY disagree with the editor part. While getting feedback is a very helpful part of the revision process, it's not strictly necessary, and very rarely is a professional editor involved until AFTER a novel has been accepted by a publisher.

This is mostly because any writer who is on the path to becoming a published writer will either "naturally" have the skills needed to put together a coherent and compelling story, or they've worked very hard to acquire those skills. Really, if you can't get a novel 99% of the way towards where it needs to be on your own, an editor isn't going to be able to fix enough to matter anyway.

Now feedback from personal readers or critique groups are certainly useful ways of learning the skills I mention above, but it's still a matter of understanding and applying those lessons on one's own that counts more than anything else.

Having heard the history of the first sales of dozens of authors from their own mouths, I can't recall any of them using an editor before that sale, and usually it has been at least the 4th or 5th novel that they've written before they were good enough to crack the market.

[PhoeKun]

My response to those people that try to dismiss writing a novel is no big deal is "OK, you do it." Large amount of the time those people don't even have the wherewithal to know where to start.

Even a bad novel is going to take a lot of work, a good one is going to take even more.

This is a terrible attitude to confront people with. Writing is not difficult, and you're doing people a tremendous disservice if you start jabbing them with a finger and say, "Hey man, what I do is hard. You can't do what I do!"

There are a depressing number of people who think that writing is so hard it's not worth taking the time to even learn the basics of it. Communication (among other things) suffers as a result. There's no need for us as writers to perpetuate this by being arrogant about the level of difficulty involved in writing a book.

Divorce yourself from the incredible amount of effort it takes to write a book well. That is a different kettle of fish. Writing a book requires four simple things: time, something to write with, motivation, and an idea. Stream of consciousness writing suggests that the idea is actually optional. So it's really just time, material, and desire. If you have those three things, you can write a novel. You can write a novel in a month, even. That is the entire point of NaNo, after all - to show how easy it is to write a book.

If there's one thing I'll agree with you with, it's that writing well is difficult. It takes huge amounts of effort, researching, pouring over word choice, writing, editing, rewriting, re-editing, peer review, and a sacrifice to some dark god somewhere along the line. And it's absolutely true that if you sit down to write a book, you should be trying to write the best book you're capable of. So I do understand the temptation to say that writing is difficult, but all you're doing when you trumpet that cause is turning people off of writing.

Everyone in the world has at least one novel inside them. If you love writing, why in the world aren't you trying to coax it out of them?

[Cristo Meyers]

Everyone in the world has at least one novel inside them. If you love writing, why in the world aren't you trying to coax it out of them?

Because if they can't coax it out by themselves then they're probably beyond any help anyway.

[Telonius]

and a sacrifice to some dark god somewhere along the line.

Sometimes more than one. Seriously, I'm starting to run out of virgins here. :smallmad:

[Dallas-Dakota]

Pretty much everybody can write a book with enough time, material and desire.

See exhibit A: Twilight

No if you want to write a good novel...

[PhoeKun]

Because if they can't coax it out by themselves then they're probably beyond any help anyway.

Have you stopped to think that the reason some can't is because they've been browbeaten into believing they don't have what it takes?

[Felixaar]

It would depend on the person involved, I imagine. It's not ultimately difficult for me, though I have to admit the biggest challenge now is finding the time and peace. It does take a lot of commitment and self motivation.

[Cristo Meyers]

Gah, post-us interrupt-us...


This is a terrible attitude to confront people with. Writing is not difficult, and you're doing people a tremendous disservice if you start jabbing them with a finger and say, "Hey man, what I do is hard. You can't do what I do!"

As opposed to the attitude of belittling someone's work by claiming that anyone can do it? Work is work, some of us just take an extra step.


There are a depressing number of people who think that writing is so hard it's not worth taking the time to even learn the basics of it. Communication (among other things) suffers as a result. There's no need for us as writers to perpetuate this by being arrogant about the level of difficulty involved in writing a book.

Similarly there's no need to downplay to the point of "anyone with a pen can do this." We're allowed to take some amount of pride in the fact that we were able to see a project on par with finishing a novel all the way to the end.


Divorce yourself from the incredible amount of effort it takes to write a book well. That is a different kettle of fish. Writing a book requires four simple things: time, something to write with, motivation, and an idea. Stream of consciousness writing suggests that the idea is actually optional. So it's really just time, material, and desire. If you have those three things, you can write a novel. You can write a novel in a month, even. That is the entire point of NaNo, after all - to show how easy it is to write a book.

Personally I find the idea that NaNo is easy laughable. I'm sorry, but the amount of effort and sheer determination it takes to put out 50K words in a month places it pretty squarely in the "difficult" category.



If there's one thing I'll agree with you with, it's that writing well is difficult. It takes huge amounts of effort, researching, pouring over word choice, writing, editing, rewriting, re-editing, peer review, and a sacrifice to some dark god somewhere along the line. And it's absolutely true that if you sit down to write a book, you should be trying to write the best book you're capable of. So I do understand the temptation to say that writing is difficult, but all you're doing when you trumpet that cause is turning people off of writing.


And all that you're doing by trumpeting the cause of "writing is easy, writing well is hard" is the exact same thing. You're doing no more to coax that story out of them by pointing out how hard it is to do it right than I am by pointing out that sometimes getting it written in the first place is also difficult.


Have you stopped to think that the reason some can't is because they've been browbeaten into believing they don't have what it takes?

And how is "writing is easy, writing well is hard" really saying any different? You're still saying that they may not have what it takes to do it well and you're taking away any sense of accomplishment for getting it written at all.

[Jimorian]

There's a HUGE difference between saying "finishing a book is hard" and "finishing a book is an accomplishment".

[Callista]

Every few months, I write enough to fill a book, but there is a big difference between that and actually writing a book.

As about half a dozen people have already said here, it's easy to slap a lot of words down and call it a book; it's not so easy to write something that is actually understandable and enjoyable/informative to read.

I have a tendency to write a lot more than is necessary on a topic. Sometimes, when one of my professors gives us a "minimum word limit" but doesn't mention a maximum word limit, I get a little... overenthusiastic.

For example, last quarter's research paper--I picked the topic of alternative and augmentative communication for autistic people, focusing on VOCAs--was supposed to be five pages long. I ended up with eleven pages, plus a table and a couple dozen references. If I'd had more time, I'd have written less. I'm pretty sure at least some of it was redundant.

Writing itself comes easily to me, but I'm one of those people who will write about three times as much as is necessary to actually get the idea across. You see it in my posts. They tend to be long, too. So no, I'll probably never write a book. I often study by writing down a summary of what I've read in my textbooks; I keep a similarly wordy blog, and have kept journals since age eight; I prefer to communicate by e-mail. That makes me a writer, but it doesn't make me an author. I've never been published.

[Mauve Shirt]

As many have said, much harder to write a good book than to write a book.
I have ideas for stories sometimes, but I don't have enough practice with creative writing to make it sound at all professional.

[Callista]

Oh, I could never write fiction professionally. It would have to be an informative book. I struggle to write so much as a short story.

[PhoeKun]

As opposed to the attitude of belittling someone's work by claiming that anyone can do it? Work is work, some of us just take an extra step.

I'm not belittling anyone or anything. All I'm doing is refusing to look across the room at a book on a table and praise the author for having written before I've actually read the thing. A book all by itself is not that special.

I'll actually go one step farther than I did before (because you're right that the line I drew in the sand is just as unhelpful). Anyone can write well. Anyone. Absolutely everyone can write a book of real merit. They should be encouraged to try.

Not everyone will. No matter how doable it is, no matter how much I tout that anyone can do it, please do not take that to mean that I'm attacking you for wanting to be proud of your work. If I gave that impression before, I am sorry.

This is a pretty delicate topic, and I don't speak any language that's particularly well equipped to dance around it. Talent isn't a necessity to write books. Talent isn't a necessity to write good books. Talent is a necessity to write specific books. The more talent you have, and the more you work to refine it, the more the book you write becomes something that someone else could not write. The very best of writers produce things that nobody else could. Eragon could be written by pretty much anyone with a sufficient case of verbal diarrhea. I Have no Mouth and I Must Scream is Harlan Ellison's and only Harlan Ellison's.

That's the distinction that sets books and authors apart, and that's the thing I want to praise. The real accomplishment is not just writing, but writing something someone else could not have. This is why an author has a right to be proud of his work no matter what, and why it is not a contradiction for him or her to be proud of the accomplishment even in saying that anyone could write. The ease of the act is not the same thing as easily producing a specific creation. That's a separation I choose to make. I happen to think that the writing world would be better off if everyone chose to make it, as well.


Oh, I could never write fiction professionally

Yes you could.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Pretty much everybody can write a book with enough time, material and desire.

See exhibit A: Twilight

No if you want to write a good novel...

If I could get as much money and as many rabid fangirls as Meyers did with Twilight, I would crank books like it out at a terrifying pace.

Just going to be honest.

[13_CBS]

If there's one thing I'll agree with you with, it's that writing well is difficult. It takes huge amounts of effort, researching, pouring over word choice, writing, editing, rewriting, re-editing, peer review, and a sacrifice to some dark god somewhere along the line. And it's absolutely true that if you sit down to write a book, you should be trying to write the best book you're capable of.

But for me, here's the thing: after 15 or so years of musical training, if there's one thing that I've learned it is this:

Don't waste your time playing crap. If you have the time to play something, do it well or don't do it at all.

And as you say, a well-written novel requires much: effort, research, writing skill, editing, dark rituals, etc. Imagine trying to tackle all of that as a novice writer, particularly the research part :smalleek:

[Cristo Meyers]

I'm not belittling anyone or anything. All I'm doing is refusing to look across the room at a book on a table and praise the author for having written before I've actually read the thing. A book all by itself is not that special.

I'll actually go one step farther than I did before (because you're right that the line I drew in the sand is just as unhelpful). Anyone can write well. Anyone. Absolutely everyone can write a book of real merit. They should be encouraged to try.

Exactly, but they should also be aware that it isn't easy. I don't think the writing world would benefit from the idea that "hey, this is easy, all you have to do is write it down." It's a challenge, an accomplishment, and it can be downright hard, but if you're going to do it you may as well go the whole nine yards and try your damnedest to do it well. You're already taking on the challenge of writing the thing in the first place, why not go even further and make it the best you can possibly make it?


Not everyone will. No matter how doable it is, no matter how much I tout that anyone can do it, please do not take that to mean that I'm attacking you for wanting to be proud of your work. If I gave that impression before, I am sorry.

This is a pretty delicate topic, and I don't speak any language that's particularly well equipped to dance around it. Talent isn't a necessity to write books. Talent isn't a necessity to write good books. Talent is a necessity to write specific books. The more talent you have, and the more you work to refine it, the more the book you write becomes something that someone else could not write. The very best of writers produce things that nobody else could. Eragon could be written by pretty much anyone with a sufficient case of verbal diarrhea. I Have no Mouth and I Must Scream is Harlan Ellison's and only Harlan Ellison's.

That's the distinction that sets books and authors apart, and that's the thing I want to praise. The real accomplishment is not just writing, but writing something someone else could not have. This is why an author has a right to be proud of his work no matter what, and why it is not a contradiction for him or her to be proud of the accomplishment even in saying that anyone could write. The ease of the act is not the same thing as easily producing a specific creation. That's a separation I choose to make. I happen to think that the writing world would be better off if everyone chose to make it, as well.


And I think that's where my idea's rub. If you're saying that something is easy, you're not encouraging them to be the best they can at it. After all, it's easy, just pick up that pen or sit down at that keyboard. If you admit that it's hard, that the potential author is going to have to work just to get the story done, then it becomes an accomplishment. You've worked hard just to come this far, now it's time to make it the best you can and make it a real achievement.

'Course, the flip side of this is writers that get an ego just because they've finished a book and then refuse to improve, but I think that they would be comparable to the Paolini's and Meyer's of the idea of writing is easy. They're the people that just didn't want to take the next step.

[Milskidasith]

I'd have to say it's hard. I've had plenty of ideas that could have been decent short books (novelettes? Is that the word?), or at least decent short stories, but I can never get pen to paper. Well, in my case, it would be that I could never get mouse to Microsoft Word and fingers to keyboard.

[Telonius]

An awful lot of drivel does get published. A lot of average stuff gets published. Very few excellent books are published (see Sturgeon's Law). Many of the mediocre and awful books also had a lot of work put into them. Almost all of the excellent books had a lot of work put into them.

You're not going to be the reincarnation of William Shakespeare the first time you write anything. It's okay for your first attempt to be bad - most first attempts are. The important part is that you improve from there. Also, remember that even Shakespeare had his stinkers.

[13_CBS]

You're not going to be the reincarnation of William Shakespeare the first time you write anything. It's okay for your first attempt to be bad - most first attempts are. The important part is that you improve from there. Also, remember that even Shakespeare had his stinkers.

Of course. I don't expect to be the next Gil Shaham whenever I pick up my violin and start playing something. But regardless, it's something very deeply ingrained into me: don't play crap, because if you have the time to play crap you have the time to play well. It leaks into my attempts at novels--my worlds have to make sense or I get frustrated and give up on them. My characters have to make sense and be interesting, my writing has to be good, my plot has to be interesting, yet sensible. Much of the problem, I find, comes from all the research one must do, which makes me feel that I need PH.Ds in multiple fields to be able to understand them.

[Cristo Meyers]

Of course. I don't expect to be the next Gil Shaham whenever I pick up my violin and start playing something. But regardless, it's something very deeply ingrained into me: don't play crap, because if you have the time to play crap you have the time to play well. It leaks into my attempts at novels--my worlds have to make sense or I get frustrated and give up on them. My characters have to make sense and be interesting, my writing has to be good, my plot has to be interesting, yet sensible. Much of the problem, I find, comes from all the research one must do, which makes me feel that I need PH.Ds in multiple fields to be able to understand them.

Imagine how every writer that has a character dying of some kind of terminal illness feels thanks to the popularity of shows like ER and House...

...not that I'm talking from actual experience or anything...

To me the absolute drivel that gets published isn't bad because what they did was easy, it's bad because they only did half the job. If they had the drive to actually write a book, then where was that drive to actually make the work good?

[snoopy13a]

Writing is easier for some people than others just like many other things are. People who say writing is easy often are people who have a natural gift for it. Many of those who say it is difficult are those who simply do not have the talent for it.

[13_CBS]

Imagine how every writer that has a character dying of some kind of terminal illness feels thanks to the popularity of shows like ER and House...

...not that I'm talking from actual experience or anything...

To me the absolute drivel that gets published isn't bad because what they did was easy, it's bad because they only did half the job. If they had the drive to actually write a book, then where was that drive to actually make the work good?

I...don't quite get your point here. I wasn't trying to say that writing doesn't take a lot of work--quite the contrary. I was saying that, to me, it requires so much work that it seems unfeasible.

[Lissou]

My opinion on that can be summed up easily:
Writing a book, in itself, is easy. It takes more time than talent.
Writing a good book is harder. And it requires a lot of practice.

I'd say it's similar to the question "is drawing hard or easy". Well that depends if you mean draw /well/.

As with many things, though, you have to work hard at it. People will say so and so is "talented" ("Oh, I wish I had your talent") but talent just means hard, regular work. Everybody can learn to draw or write, if not amazingly, at least fairly well, if they have the dedication and time necessary.

[Cristo Meyers]

I...don't quite get your point here. I wasn't trying to say that writing doesn't take a lot of work--quite the contrary. I was saying that, to me, it requires so much work that it seems unfeasible.

That was more concerning Telonius' point about the amount of crap getting published...I don't always remember that this board doesn't multi-quote...

I think that once writing well starts seeming like it's not feasible then you've hit the point where you're being to hard on yourself. Perfection just isn't possible. What it sounds like to me is that you're trying to get the work done on the first runthrough. There's a point where you just have to detatch a bit and let what's there ride for a bit. That way you're not trying to rebuild something entirely from scratch but working with existing pieces that are still good and just reworking the bit that's the problem.

[PhoeKun]

@Cristo: What you're saying is very true, but in my experience focusing too much on the difficulties tends to leave a lot of people declaring writing to be "impossible" for them. I much prefer to err on the side of overplaying the ease of the task, and working with them after the fact to build up an appreciation for maximum effort (anymore I think I spend more time developing other people's writing than I do my own. Being the unproven commodity I am, I really ought to go about balancing that out. <.<)


An awful lot of drivel does get published. A lot of average stuff gets published. Very few excellent books are published (see Sturgeon's Law). Many of the mediocre and awful books also had a lot of work put into them. Almost all of the excellent books had a lot of work put into them.

You're not going to be the reincarnation of William Shakespeare the first time you write anything. It's okay for your first attempt to be bad - most first attempts are. The important part is that you improve from there. Also, remember that even Shakespeare had his stinkers.

There's also this. Even though it's important to pour your all into your writing, it's just as important to accept that most of it (especially the early parts) is going to be bad. I think a lot of people get too used to looking at the finished product, and forget how much refinement actually went into it, and how different the thing they're reading really is from what it probably started out as. Then when Try #1 doesn't come out just like that, they quit in frustration.

It's yet another challenge to opening and expanding the field of writing. There sure are a lot of them...

[Starla]

In school I was praised for my creative writing skills. My teachers would point out different examples of sentences and phrases that I used to show my natural talent. I partially believed them. Since I loved to read, I am sure that some of my natural talent was mimicking books that I had read. I was encouraged by multiple people to pursue writing as an adult, which I haven't really done yet.

What is holding me back? Redundance. I see too much redundance in a lot of books. I don't want to look like another cookie-cutter author who doesn't add anything new or innovative. I want to produce something original. The only really original project I have, is not a novel, but a short story. I haven't figured out how to make it grow or if I even should try.

Any suggestions?

Actually, I just wanted to add that, I don't think creating a story out of thin air is impossible. We actually have a card game called Once Upon A Time. The cards have places, events, objects and people on them and you have to make them a part of the story. The fun is that everyone also has an ending card that they have to get to and interrupt cards to help them take over the story and twist it to the end they have in mind. I have played it with several different people and some have a flair for creating and others found it difficult to think beyond the cards in their hand. Either way the game has provided great entertainment when you get the right people together to play it. What it has taught me is that the first thing you need to tell a good story is know what your end goal is. Without it you could just have them wander around like Thumbelina (a story by Hans Christian Anderson that I never really liked for that exact reason) until suddenly they find the happily ever after that they never knew they wanted in the first place.

[Cristo Meyers]

@Cristo: What you're saying is very true, but in my experience focusing too much on the difficulties tends to leave a lot of people declaring writing to be "impossible" for them. I much prefer to err on the side of overplaying the ease of the task, and working with them after the fact to build up an appreciation for maximum effort
I don't disagree, but to me downplaying the difficulty in writing the story at all downplays it's significance. Which then will downplay the desire to improve. It's just a story. Big deal. When it's an accomplishment just to write it things go from "just a story" to "my story" and there's an investment in making it good.


(anymore I think I spend more time developing other people's writing than I do my own. Being the unproven commodity I am, I really ought to go about balancing that out. <.<)

We're just two students playing at being sensei...:smallwink:



There's also this. Even though it's important to pour your all into your writing, it's just as important to accept that most of it (especially the early parts) is going to be bad. I think a lot of people get too used to looking at the finished product, and forget how much refinement actually went into it, and how different the thing they're reading really is from what it probably started out as. Then when Try #1 doesn't come out just like that, they quit in frustration.

Yes, this. This on the nose. Don't look forward, look at right where you are now. There's no finished product without a first draft.

Edit:


In school I was praised for my creative writing skills. My teachers would point out different examples of sentences and phrases that I used to show my natural talent. I partially believed them. Since I loved to read, I am sure that some of my natural talent was mimicking books that I had read. I was encouraged by multiple people to pursue writing as an adult, which I haven't really done yet.

What is holding me back? Redundance. I see too much redundance in a lot of books. I don't want to look like another cookie-cutter author who doesn't add anything new or innovative. I want to produce something original. The only really original project I have, is not a novel, but a short story. I haven't figured out how to make it grow or if I even should try.

Any suggestions?

I've always found that expanding a short story into a full-length novel is probably more difficult than just writing a novel. Unless the short is written in a particular way it's really hard to stretch the material without basically starting from scratch anyway.

Personally, I think that originality is somewhat overrated. You're going to be imitating someone, no matter what you're writing. What will make your work unique are the things like your characters, your voice, things that really only you can do in the first place. You should worry less about who you might be imitating and more about making your work your own and making it the best you can make it.

[PhoeKun]

What is holding me back? Redundance. I see too much redundance in a lot of books. I don't want to look like another cookie-cutter author who doesn't add anything new or innovative. I want to produce something original. The only really original project I have, is not a novel, but a short story. I haven't figured out how to make it grow or if I even should try.

Any suggestions?

I do have a suggestion - make the leap and come to the conclusion that a short story is a different sort of animal than a novel. It doesn't need to be expanded to be good. Actually, a lot of short stories need to be contracted to improve.

So, in a nutshell, if your worthiest idea is a short story, write a short story. In fact, write a bunch of short stories, compile them, and publish the whole lot. Or find other people with remarkable short stories, and put out a joint venture. You don't even really need to do that. Find a good website (or make one) and put your singular short story up for public viewing there. There are many, many ways to leave your mark on the world of writing. Novels are just the most popular.

[snoopy13a]

As with many things, though, you have to work hard at it. People will say so and so is "talented" ("Oh, I wish I had your talent") but talent just means hard, regular work. Everybody can learn to draw or write, if not amazingly, at least fairly well, if they have the dedication and time necessary.

Natural talent goes a long way. If you aren't talented in a field, you'll never be good at it, no matter how hard you work. A tone deaf person will never be a good musician. A slow person will never be an above average runner.

Still, unless someone is supremely talented, they will also need hard work. Hard work separates those of similar talent but it cannot bridge a significant talent gap. I'm sure everyone saw examples in school of naturally gifted students who didn't have to do much work who "earned" better grades than those of average abilities who worked extremely hard.

Additionally, luck plays a role in success. Often, it is something as random as when or where you were born. For example, according to Malcom Gladwell's book Outliers, Canadian hockey players born early in the year are more successful than those born later in the year. This is because the age cutoff for youth teams is January 1st. So, kids born in January or February are 9-11 months older than their teammates born at the end of the year. The few months advantage in development makes them physically superior and more apt to play more and join all-star teams where they get more coaching (and the ability to work harder).

So, success comes down to three things:

1) Natural talent
2) Hard work
3) Luck

[Starla]

Cristoe and Phoekun:

Thanks, you have validated some of the thoughts that I had already. It is nice to get an outside, unbiased opinion. I think I will put my fingers to work for me. If I get somewhere with it I will let you know. :smallsmile:

[truemane]

Well, it's important to note that even writing a bad novel takes time and effort. Maybe less time re-writing, but still it's time and effort.

[Icewalker]

Truemane is making some measure the point I've been intending to from about halfway through reading this thread.

The big thing which you've ('you' being about halfway between anyone and PhoeKun :smallwink: ) been avoiding is dedication. Sure, anyone can write a book if they sit down with an idea, a desire, and time. But it's a lot of time. And over that long time, with likely little to show for it at first, desire is quick to wane. You're right, anybody has the knowledge, the ideas, and the opportunities to write a book, but writing a book is difficult because it takes an awful lot of determination and commitment, which is something many people don't have.

I myself have had an idea for a book for about two years, and haven't really acted on it except occasionally furthering the ideas. Mostly that's because I hadn't really seen my friend who I came up with the idea with for that time, and we have yet to really meet up and re-discuss the book and actually writing it...

[Lissou]

Good points about talent

Very true.
I assume most people can learn to ride a bike. Yet my husband got inner ear damage and has such a terrible balance that he can't.

I shouldn't have generalised, I think I was just showing my annoyance at some people who say "I wish I could write/draw/play this instrument but I just don't have the talent" when to me, they're usually just lazy.

Now, we're good at different things, that's true. And we have different capacities for learning. But you aren't born able to write poems or to draw with photograph-like realism. It takes a lot of work. There are very few people who have enough inborn gift that only little work gets there where they want.
Usually, a comic book artist is good at drawing because they did it everyday for years. Same goes with writers. And if you stop doing one or the other, you'll lose some of your abilities, although it gets back faster than you got it in the first place.

Everyone also has a style, be it in drawings or writing. That style might be hard to figure out, or very easy. Trying to find it can take the most work sometimes. Learning to be happy with it can take a while too.
Just because you can draw won't mean you can't draw like X. Just because you can write won't mean you can write like X, either.

I think a lot of it comes from the taste for it, though. If you really like something, you'll do it a lot, for no reason. You'll draw/write because you like doing it, not for money. And with the right info around you, you'll get better.
(I don't think you automatically get better just through hard work. You need the right books, people to give you advice or examples to follow. Just on your own, with no help whatsoever you'll reach a certain amount of comfort and then you'll stay there).

To people who want to get better at writing, I'd suggest:
1) read. And not just stuff you love, try and read something different once in a while. It can be important getting out of your comfort zone.
2) try and find people who can read you, and listen to their advice. They might spot inconsistencies or weird phrasing. Don't get upset with them, you need the criticism.
3) practice writing what you're bad at. Might sound obvious, but most people tend to write what they're already good at. That's not how you improve. If you're bad at describing, try describing the room around you. Then try describing some picture. Then describe something else, and read other writers' descriptions for hints.
Don't worry if you hate what you're writing. Keep going. We all started unable to even hold a pen.

Also, try not to have expectations about exactly what you want to do.
It's important to get better at what you do wrong, but if you're bad at fantasy, you might always be bad at fantasy. But maybe you'd write great thrillers. Try a bit of everything and stay as objective as you want. You might not become the next Tolkien but you might become excellent at some new genre. Experiment a bit :)

[Lord Loss]

I can write 20-30 pages without my brain fizzling. But I'm writing the next OMG THAT IS LIKE SO GOOD BOOK EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT LIVE UNDER A ROCK TOATALLY ADORES IT! book sometime soon. Honest.

[Trizap]

hard, I may have 50-something pages written down, but I'm not actually sure whether its good, and I need to make sure everything that happens makes sense and is within the characters natural tendency to act, I'm trying and I got a solid plot going but I just not sure whether I'm really that good, so I just try to write naturally, not think about it and just my creativity building and weave it forward.

[Jimorian]

Various thoughts coming from the great discussion so far.

I mentioned that it's VERY typical for a first published novel to be that author's 4th or 5th try for a couple of reasons. One is so that someone sitting down to write a novel doesn't put undue pressure on themself to make it "perfect". Just have fun doing it because that is the best way of making sure that the story comes from you and contains what will make you unique as an author.

Two is because it often takes that long for all the lessons learned by trying different things out to finally gel. Almost to a person, published authors are horrified at the thought of their first couple of novels being published as they were originally written, because they've progressed so much in their skills since then. That doesn't mean they can't go back and rework that old story into something that's publishable now, however.

As far as I'm concerned, there are 2 modes of writing, and both are completely valid and I respect either equally.

Writing for fun or just to try it out to see if it's something that fits into your life is completely awesome and I encourage everybody to give it a shot. There's no pressure, and whether you just want something to read for yourself (this is probably the biggest motivator for people to start, "nobody else is writing what I want to read, so I'll just write it myself!"), or you want to share with friends or post here on the playground, whether it's fanfiction or completely original, it's all good. :smallsmile:

IF you decide that getting published is your goal, then there's a major gear upshift and a lot of new factors come into the equation. My personal opinion is that you still have to write for yourself and have fun doing it, because the odds are so stacked against you, you might as well enjoy butting your head against the system. :smallwink:

It is a lot of work to develop advanced skills in writing and a lot of dedication to keep working at it when there's no external milestones signifying progress. What's cool is that there is a lot of sharing of tips and information in the writing community, so it's easy to find out what you need to know whether it's fixing up a short story for fun or figuring out the final pieces of a novel puzzle before sending it to a publisher.

Finally, I'm going to pass along something a professional editor posted a while back on another forum I frequent. I'm only a semi-pro editor, but the spirit is the same.

You have my permission to write crappy first drafts.

Every writer works differently, but very very few get it absolutely right on the first pass. Most often, it's helps to turn off the internal editor while putting down the initial raw material. Because that's what a first draft is -- raw material to be shaped into a final story. It's really hard to hold a whole story in one's mind and know what has to be adjusted to make it work. But once the pieces are on the page, they can be moved around, eliminated, holes filled, etc. Use the freedom of the first draft to have fun.

If you have to write something you know you're going to eliminate later in order to get to the next scene, do it. I've actually written the same scene 2 different ways in 2 different places and left it in that way until I was done and could look at the whole story to see where it really needed to go. It's IMPOSSIBLE to make a mistake in a first draft. :smallbiggrin:

[Lissou]

Neil Gaiman, who I really respect, said that you should write and finish your first draft, and not worry about whether it's bad or whatever.
Then you can put it aside, and later, go back and fix it.
The first big step is actually finishing something. A common mistake is to only write so much and rework it again and again and again because you want it to be perfect, and then never finishing anything.

First, focus on getting something completed. Then, worry about the editing and rewriting process. You might even decide to just forget about that first story and start another one, and decide it was just practice. But whatever you do, try and get something finished before you try and make something perfect.

[Lappy9000]

I'm not writing a book per say, but I am working on a rather large project. Personally, saying to myself on the first day that it WILL get done, assuming I don't die or become unable to complete within extreme limitations is very motivating :smallsmile:

Of course, I'm a hobbyist; I realize the chances of making money off the project is nil, but I'm not doing it for the money, nor for any expectations of money. Heck, I've even spent money on it!

Although, I'd suggest posting stuff periodically on a forum is a good way to get it done. No real pressure, but if people like your stuff, they'll bug you for more :smallbiggrin:

[Bor the Barbarian Monk]

Interesting debate you kids have going here. The thing *I* would like to point out is that there is no wrong answer. And if you change the premise, you'd see that.

"Skydiving: hard or easy?"

Well, those of a certain mindset would think it was easy, and if they haven't done it already, they'd look forward to trying it. Then there are folks who would look at skydiving and ask, "Why on Earth would you jump out a perfectly good airplane?" Finally, there are people like me, for whom skydiving might well be dangerous. And those are just the basic three groups. There's a mix in between that, say, have jumped, had a bad experience during the fall, and will never do it again, while another sub group that had similar problems can't wait to give it another shot.

But why go to such an extreme? Let's change the premise again.

"Getting out of bed in the morning: hard or easy?"

Well, you have those who leap out of bed early in the morning, go for a jog, shower, have breakfast, and then they're off to work, where they greet everyone with a smile. Alternatively, you have a group, (rather large, from the looks of things), who grumble when their alarms go off, hit "snooze" as often as they can until they have no choice but to get up, and are still ready to crawl back into bed, even after they've dressed and are on the way to work. Then you have folks like me for whom the task of getting out of bed is almost a fight for life, and if there wasn't a serious motivator, (like caring for a certain beloved cat), they would stay in bed and never face the day.

So...Is writing a book easy? Yes, no, and maybe. Is writing a book hard? Yes, no, and maybe. It's all about the individual and what they believe. When I write, I try to crank out 1000 words a day, and I'm not always successful when my goal is a structured story. (I don't count blog and forum posts.) But there are those who are of a mind that if you're not writing 5000 words a day, you're not writing enough. I've written fiction and non-fiction, and while it may seem easier to write the former, the latter can come more naturally because it is either something that fascinates you or dircetly impacts your life.

And there you have it...a perfectly vague view that probably hasn't furthered the discussion at all. It's okay, my children...you are most welcome. :smalltongue:

[Alarra]

Because if they can't coax it out by themselves then they're probably beyond any help anyway.

I don't like this thought. There is a reason that writing groups and support make someone far more likely to complete a novel, and to make it good. It's unfair to say that because someone isn't necessarily as self-motivated as others they don't have the talent and capability of writing a book.


Personally I find the idea that NaNo is easy laughable. I'm sorry, but the amount of effort and sheer determination it takes to put out 50K words in a month places it pretty squarely in the "difficult" category.

I found NaNo incredibly difficult, as did most writers that I know. It takes an insane amount of time and effort, especially if you want you 50k words to all actually be relevant to the same story. I personally had to switch novels in the middle because I didn't know what happened next and there's no pausing for writer's block built into the NaNo time frame.

And no, I don't think that 'anyone' can write a book, because people do lack the time, dedication, motivation, and ideas needed to even start the project. There's a reason that so many people start novels and only make it through a chapter or two....it is difficult. So yes, I think that finishing a novel is an accomplishment. Do I think that just because you finished a novel it's worthy of being read or published? Absolutely not. But I think that you have accomplished something great because you finished it. And that this practice and first drafts and short stories will make you more likely to become a great novelist someday.

I do, however, agree with Phoe, that it would be doing the world of could-be writers a disservice by discouraging them to write because of the difficulty. It's important to remember that any writing will improve your skill. Stories, blogs, poems, posts, all will eventually help you on the road to being a better writer and people should be encouraged to pursue that goal.

[snoopy13a]

So...Is writing a book easy? Yes, no, and maybe. Is writing a book hard? Yes, no, and maybe. It's all about the individual and what they believe. When I write, I try to crank out 1000 words a day, and I'm not always successful when my goal is a structured story. (I don't count blog and forum posts.) But there are those who are of a mind that if you're not writing 5000 words a day, you're not writing enough. I've written fiction and non-fiction, and while it may seem easier to write the former, the latter can come more naturally because it is either something that fascinates you or dircetly impacts your life.



Just as a reference, Hemingway wrote between 500-1000 words per day:

http://www.timelesshemingway.com/faq/faq5.shtml#words

[Jimorian]

A manuscript page (double spaced courier, 1 inch margins all around) is approximately 250 words. 1 page a day for a year is a novel. A novel a year is a perfectly normal writing career for many published authors.

[Quincunx]

Just as a reference, Hemingway wrote between 500-1000 words per day:

http://www.timelesshemingway.com/faq/faq5.shtml#words

Hemingway? I'm surprised. He's a primary example of someone who knew to express himself in 100 words where other people required 5000.

[Mystic Muse]

extremely easy to write. extremely hard to write well.

[Callista]

I get very annoyed at authors who don't do the research. If I can research modern physics for a lackluster fan fiction story, they can definitely research subtleties like "a modern psychiatrist would not diagnose someone as a psychopath because that hasn't been the official name for it in a long time" or "a person having a seizure may bite his tongue, but it's impossible to actually swallow it" or "you cannot hypnotize somebody and then order them to kill themselves" (mundane hypnosis, nothing supernatural about it). Don't get me started about unrealistically easy-to-recover-from head injuries and the use of "schizophrenic" to mean "multiple personalities"! All of those I saw in published books, from authors who should know better.

[Cristo Meyers]

I do, however, agree with Phoe, that it would be doing the world of could-be writers a disservice by discouraging them to write because of the difficulty. It's important to remember that any writing will improve your skill. Stories, blogs, poems, posts, all will eventually help you on the road to being a better writer and people should be encouraged to pursue that goal.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone, and you haven't said anything I disagree with. Of course any kind of writing helps, but the challenge in writing a blog post or a short story is a different beast from writing a collection of poems or a novel. I'm only saying that aspiring writers would be done just as much of a disservice by being under the illusion that the task they're undertaking when they sit down to write something like a complete book is easy. I also think that it's rather demeaning to the people who took the time and effort to actually do so and succeeded to then turn around and say "anyone can do that, it's easy." In fact, the discussion with Phoe was the first time I've ever had someone say that writing a book is easy and that anyone could do it and not mean it as a way to demean the writing profession.

"Writing a book is easy, writing well is hard" reeks of goalpost moving to me. They aren't really saying anything different from the crowd that believes writing in general is difficult, they've just moved the difficult part ahead a few paces.

[KIDS]

Writing a book can range from easy to hard, depending on your effort, but writing a quality book is always hard. The same reason why ideas are aplenty but people who can turn them into good fiction are rare. I don't think that's elitism. As said before in the thread, no one is expected to become a great writer on first attempt.

While fantasy fiction gives you some leeway to bypass the technical details such as what percent of the population is Catholic without the presence of the Catholic church, it does not let you run away from them. For example, fantasy characters will still talk about a calendar and you will still need to make it make sense, whether it is our or invented calendar.

Also, for good examples of this see Anne Rice's vampire books. They take place in the real world, a bit magically altered, but still altered. But her style is so beautiful that I loved it when her vampires met the Reneissance painters, but I never wondered about whether her economic and historical details were all correct. Her style was too strong to let any attention wander onto such petty issues - issues that, for me, do nothing important for the story that is supposed to be about the characters.


For example, one time I tried building a fantasy world set ca. 1066 AD Western Europe, except without the presence of a large, organized religion (such as the Roman Catholic Church) since 400 AD. It went along decently until several people made me realize that the impact of not having something like the Church was huge. I tried handwaving it at first, but I came to realize that handwaving such a big issue wouldn't work, and then I realized that, to get around the problem, I'd need years of study in medieval history, economics, etc. So I eventually gave up. (And I really wanted to write it, too...)

I think that if you handwaving it entirely would have been the example of "easy to write", and that's in a good sense. Then you tried to research it and realized how immense the issues before you were and how you could probably never satisfy all of the readers looking for holes, and it turned to extremely hard, because you decided not to settle for handwaving. You wanted to make it the best it could be. However, as you researched more of those problems, I'm sure that they will move more towards the easy side and this won't seem to impossible anymore. But that is, imo, a part of any writer's career.

[Thanatos 51-50]

For me, getting enough plot bunnies multiplying in my head, sitting down in front of the computer (Or typewriter, but I haven't had a typewriter in a long time), letting my fingers on the home row and banging out a typo-ridden first paragraph or so is easy. It's even fun.

Everything after that is hard. Three-dimensional characters are hard. A compelling plot that moves at a comfortable clip is hard. Finding a balance between action scenes and plot scenes is hard. Grammar is hard.
Worst of all, standing up to my own expectations is hard.
And I've read and honestyl enjoyed books which get universally regarded by my peers as utter crap.

Writing is hard, and it's something I really want to conquer.

Incidentally, I feel that if I had a typewriter, I'd probably write alot more, because type-writers are fun.

[Vaynor]

It all depends on the book. It is very easy to write a terrible novel, but it still remains an arduous process.

Writing a good book all depends on talent. A great author can write a great novel just as easily as a terrible author can write a terrible novel, but even the terrible author is able to produce a great novel with enough effort and time. But a great author who puts time and effort into his novels can produce an amazing novel, and so on.

So to answer the question, depends on ability.

[Cristo Meyers]

Incidentally, I feel that if I had a typewriter, I'd probably write alot more, because type-writers are fun.


I can only agree with this sentiment. I love typing on a typewriter.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I can only agree with this sentiment. I love typing on a typewriter.

This proves but that you are sane.
If you also enjoy stowing salt and vinegar potatoe chips in the freezer prior to consumption, because you honestly think that it's the best taste ever, you may join The Cult.

[Cristo Meyers]

This proves but that you are sane.
If you also enjoy stowing salt and vinegar potatoe chips in the freezer prior to consumption, because you honestly think that it's the best taste ever, you may join The Cult.

Rats! That get's me every time. It's also the reason I didn't get into the Chainsaw Jugglers Union...:smallfrown:

(BBQ flavored...the classics, man, the classics. But that's neither here nor there :smallwink:)

[Thanatos 51-50]

Rats! That get's me every time. It's also the reason I didn't get into the Chainsaw Jugglers Union...:smallfrown:

(BBQ flavored...the classics, man, the classics. But that's neither here nor there :smallwink:)

It's okay, man, I've only ever found one more potential Cultist, and I'm dating her.
(Incidentally, finding we had the same potatoe chip preferance was done on accident when I excalimed "OOO! Salt & Vinegar!" in the Foriegn Foods aisle. [Remeber - Japan])

Enough derail - back to writing writers talking about writing!

[Vella_Malachite]

Yes, writers should be encouraged, but neither should people be allowed to get their hopes up too far, so that they realise the reality and give up.

I have always been someone to whom writing has come relatively easily (probably due to the sheer mass of book that I read through every year since I was three, and shows no signs of abating). Nevertheless, I do not call writing a book easy.

I have, in fact, finished a novel-length work, and am currently getting it proofed by various friends in preparation for publishing, and talking to people in the publishing industry. This doesn't mean I expect it to be published.

This book took me five years (mainly because I gave up for a couple of years, but kept trucking on after that). I lost chapters and had to rewrite, and the entire beginning needed reworking. My characters were two-dimensional and unrealistic, and so had to be fixed. My plotline had gaping holes that needed fixing.
I hope it's all come right now. Rewriting takes a lot of work.
But one of the prime motivations for continuing was the sheer joy of writing. This is what makes writing easy or hard. If you are not enjoying writing, and if you don't feel that what you're producing is ultimately worthwhile, then there is no hope for you. You simply won't write "well" without punishing yourself, and, in my experience, that tends to detract from the end product. Truly excellent writing, in my opinion, comes from the author simply having a ball.

Although I have a certain amount of natural talent, I won't pretend that sticking to something isn't hard. That's where I have my problems. Not getting distracted by other, shiny plotlines is darned hard.
Then again, I have a friend who finds it very hard to write. She likes reading, and is capable of producing very good work, but she has difficulty finding the right words.

This is my strength in writing - the innate ability to find the correct words for a given situation, and a vocabulary that I have worked on for years. So there is talent, but there are also skills that are needed to write, and some of them can be hard to obtain. Mostly, they require reading a lot and practicing writing, as well as talking to people about what is believable. But talent is never to be sneezed at.

Also, anyone claiming that you need a university course and truckloads of research to write a novel is overdoing it. If you want to write about a subject, by all means, research, but keep in mind that, even if you write hi-tech sci-fi, not all your audience will have (for example) Physics PhD's or even have done Physics past high school. Usually, clarification on the basic rules that you're not sure on, and extra research if you plan on going deeper is all that is strictly necessary. Researching for ages tends to drain me, I find, and as long as it is not blatantly or obviously incorrect, I find people tend to forgive you. That's not to say you don't need to know what you're talking about, but university-level knowledge is not strictly necessary. Who says you can't write a novel in high school? :smallwink: