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TheCountAlucard
2009-07-11, 06:14 AM
So, a few days ago, I put on my nostalgia pants and pleasantly remembered my brief foray into the word of Shadowrun. Lots of pleasant memories altogether, including using pizza delivery to sell out a technomancer, messing up someone's attempt to run for governor, spending five hours on a plan to steal a prototype jet, and buying a round of drinks for an entire army base.

Feeling a tad whimsy, I dug up my Shadowrun book (in truth, I had borrowed it from someone, only to have him move away before I could return it :smallredface:) and asked my D&D group if it was something they might be interested in. Having a fair amount of respect for the cyberpunk genre, they all agreed that Shadowrun looked pretty cool, and that it might be fun to try.

So, my gaming group is considering Shadowrun, but we've yet to work out who's going to GM it.

Does anyone have any advice for this fledgling group of 'Runners?

Munsi
2009-07-11, 06:19 AM
asolutely none, but now i'm thinking back to shadowrun, i'd not played that game in years...

ResplendentFire
2009-07-11, 06:29 AM
So, my gaming group is considering Shadowrun, but we've yet to work out who's going to GM it.

Does anyone have any advice for this fledgling group of 'Runners?

Which edition do you have?

Swordguy
2009-07-11, 06:32 AM
Be very clear with your players about the desired power level in the game (I'm assuming, judging by your post, you're playing 2e or 3e). SR can do any power level from "gutter punks with pistols" up through "Ghost in the Shell: Kusanagi kills everybody", but not in the same party.

I also highly recommend outsourcing any decking you want the party to do to a "trusted" NPC. The pacing of your game will thank you.

At least 2 Street Samurai, a Mage (the 'sterilize all the blood you leave behind' spell is mandatory), and a Face are all you really need. Depending on the style of game you want to run, others may be make things a LOT easier (Riggers aren't necessary, but they're really handy to have, for example). Again, be clear about the style of game you're planning on running. Nothing makes for a worse SR experience than the GM wanting to run a "freelance hostile negotiations team for a megacorp" when the players want to play "a jetsetting wetworks team for hire".

Finally, read the CLUE Files (http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gaming/shadowrun/clue-files.html). These are hilarious tales of Games Gone Wrong. My groups' gotten a couple in there, and they ALL have lessons in them. Completely worth the afternoon they'll take to read.

I've got more, but I'm sure Winterwind or Mike_G will be along soon - there's actually a good SR community here, hidden below the d20-strewn surface. I've got a gig to get to. Good luck!

TheCountAlucard
2009-07-11, 06:32 AM
Which edition do you have?

Fourth. Sorry about not including that in the first post.

ResplendentFire
2009-07-11, 06:38 AM
Fourth. Sorry about not including that in the first post.

As I understand it (and from having read the rules), decking is a lot more workable within a team than it used to be. The new rules make it easier to mesh decking with physical action, which makes deckers and technomancers far more viable than past editions. The addition of augmented reality helps as well. I can't say in play, but I'm sure people will have actual experiences to relate, but it seemed relatively positive at the Dumpshock forum.

Magical characters tend to start off more narrowly focused/weaker than other characters (adepts are weaker, mages are narrowly focused, mystical adepts have to deal with both but have some versatility), but with karma they can get to be fairly powerful. I think there's also some builds (like gun fu adepts) that do fairly well compared to cybered up counterparts.

If your players are accustomed to older editions, the starting points (400) tends to make weaker characters than before (lower attributes, lower skills), but this is kind of offset by dice pools being attribute + skill. It might take a little work to adapt.

The sample archetypes are suboptimal and probably have errors. :(

That's all I can think of offhand from what I've been reading recently.

Deliverance
2009-07-11, 07:05 AM
Whatever you do, realize that most players playing a Physical Adept is likely to attempt truly outrageous stunts from time to time - it is practically in the job description. Even worse, he might be capable of pulling them off unless you go off the scale in choosing a target number to match his intended action. Learn to fear the words "I use my grapple gun to..." and "I wonder what the target number would be for..."

Actually, that was 3rd Ed. where a PhysAd was very likely to have attributes as the highest priority and go for a bare-hands fighting melee/Jackie Chan/deranged circus artist build - I haven't played 4th Ed., but I assume it is still somewhat relevant.

ResplendentFire
2009-07-11, 07:14 AM
Shadowrun 4 doesn't have target numbers (or rather, target number is always 5) - difficulty is modified by adding or subtracting dice, or requiring a minimum number of successes, depending on whether you're getting personal bonuses or penalties, or dealing with the inherent difficulty of a particular action.

Timeras
2009-07-11, 07:18 AM
Be very clear with your players about the desired power level in the game (I'm assuming, judging by your post, you're playing 2e or 3e). SR can do any power level from "gutter punks with pistols" up through "Ghost in the Shell: Kusanagi kills everybody", but not in the same party.
This was extremely important in earlier editions. In 4th starting characters are not as powerfull as was possible in 2nd or 3rd, but the group should still agree wether they want punks or professionals.

The group should also be informed about the intended type of runs. Some characters with too much obvious cyberware would be useless in certain situations.

Deliverance
2009-07-11, 07:18 AM
Right, that makes my anecdote practically worthless except for the joys of remembrance it brought me. Carry on. :)

NPCMook
2009-07-11, 07:24 AM
I'd like to recommend checking out the updated rules for SR4A. A few new optional rules, and changes to Karma gain, and spending. Changed the price on some of the spells for starting out too.

OverdrivePrime
2009-07-11, 07:35 AM
Hmm... I didn't realize the rules had gotten an update. Thanks for the heads up!

My group of runners and I are having an excellent time getting into SR4. We all used to play 2nd and 3rd edition years and years ago, and SR4 is a very welcome upgrade.

As the others said, make sure your team is all on the same level, and plan out your encounters and storyline to mesh with that.

ResplendentFire
2009-07-11, 07:36 AM
Right, that makes my anecdote practically worthless except for the joys of remembrance it brought me. Carry on. :)

Ain't nothing wrong with anecdotes. I had an adept in SR3 myself, and I annoyed the heck out of the GM with my attempts at wire fu and gun fu. :)

The rules in 4 seem friendlier to such shenanigans, at least.

mistformsquirrl
2009-07-11, 08:01 AM
Since it's 4th edition, I can't give you any advice based on actual rules...

However I can give a few bits of both GM advice and player advice >.< Note: This is all based on 3rd edition experience, but it's general advice that I have a hard time believing isn't still applicable.


For prospective Shadowrun GMs -

1) The Shadowrun universe is gritty and nasty, and yes, sometimes the runners get screwed over by Mr. Johnson - however, be that as it may, your players will revolt if every contract they take ends up being a screw-over.

In other words: Don't be stingy. I mean, don't Monty Haul it either by any stretch - but if your runners are scrounging corpses for ammunition out of necessity (rather than pure frugality) on a regular basis... you might be doing something wrong.

2) Shadowrun is generally much more lethal than D&D. Characters die and don't come back. Be that as it may, your job as GM is not "Killer of PCs" - your players will revolt if you do this. (Really that's true of any RPG; but particularly true of the more lethal ones)

Obviously you want to be able to expect some smart action out of your players; and if they do stupid... well there's a reason Runners have a low life expectancy. Just don't take it upon yourself to go out of your way to kill them.

3) Corps aren't omniscient, nor are the police. Otherwise Runners wouldn't exist due to futility. Ie: If you want to confront your runners at their safehouse for some reason, make sure it's both dramatic and logical; because they'll almost certainly have to pack up in short order afterward - causing all kinds of potential havoc.

Letting the Corps find them after every. Single. Damn. Run. will cause your players to revolt.


--- Yes, all of the above are based on actual campaigns <-.->;; --- (To be fair, none of us, GMs nor players, were very experienced; but I took away alot of general "What not to do" lessons from it - and the above are particularly pertinent to Shadowrun itself.

For players:

1) Shadowrun is more lethal than D&D. That means you can't afford to be the Hero. Heroes get dead. That doesn't mean you can't do 'the right thing' as your character sees it... but when it comes to fighting: Be a bastard.

Stack the deck in every possible way. (Obviously, don't break the rules, don't be a munchkin) But... don't just charge the guards headlong without a *really* good reason.

Stab them in the back. Vent poison through the air system. Create a distraction with a hefty explosive charge. (Preferably somewhere relatively important to the guards... but irrelevant to your run.)

Sniper rifles are good - if someone on the team is a marksman it's wise to invest in one or more as there are many situations where sniper fire can help a team get in, out, or even complete the mission in a single bullet.

The ultimate rule is: Don't fight fair. <. .> Fighting fair will get you dead. Very dead.

2) Knowledge is the single most powerful weapon you can have. Good intelligence - no matter how you acquire it - is worth more than all the firepower you could get your grubby mitts on; because it allows you to plan.

Facility layout, guard routes, guard barracks, security devices, etc... know where everything is to the best of your ability. If you can check multiple sources for the information - do it. More sources = more likelyhood your intel is actually correct.

3) Mr. Johnson is not your friend. Even the most honest client is still trying to come out ahead in the end - and Johnson's come in a lot of flavors, but "honest" isn't one of them.

Take nothing at face value.

Have a helpful NPC along courtesy of Mr. J? Put them on point and watch them like a hawk.

Paranoia is healthy >.>

4) If, after being pinned down by gunfire, you ever get the urge to shout 'C'mon, you want to live forever?!' and charge from cover, guns blazing... don't. Smack yourself.

Do it again.

One more time - WITH FEELING!

There, feeling sane again? Good.

The only time this is ever a good idea is when staying put is even worse - like "Oh hi Mr. Grenade... AUGH! *dive*"

This is why carrying a variety of guns with a variety of ranges is a good idea; and why I strongly suggest at least one person with a long rifle. Getting pinned down out of decent range for your SMGs and shotguns can make for very bad situations.

Oh, and don't neglect melee weapons either. Not everyone has to carry a lot of cutlery; but even a basic knife helps. Sometimes it's just a matter of having something highly concealable, other times you need it as a tool - and once in awhile the guns run out of ammo or get lost. Having a backup with effectively 'infinite ammo' is a good idea.

(In 3rd you could actually build a character to go toe-to-toe with foes with guns; and probably still can in 4th; but that's one of those things that can get dicey and you'll still want at least a couple pistols for the approach)

5) Your team is your family. You don't have to like em, you'll probably argue with them a lot - but the only people you should be giving any trust are your fellow Runners. Not Runners from other teams of course - just your own. A squabbling Shadowrunner team will die. >.< Badly.

6) Finally, and most of all: Keep in mind the danger the game tends to evoke. Unlike D&D, where it's entirely rational for a DM to keep their players alive through some crazy means against all odds because it's heroic fantasy and well... you're the heroes... SR tends to be different.

Even a relatively gentle GM is all too likely to leave a few dead characters along the way. Accept that before you build a character; because it can wreck the whole evening if your character catches a bullet and you spend the rest of the session griping >.< True of any RPG; but at least in D&D you can come back barring particularly awful circumstances.

(Note that this isn't to say it's impossible to have a whole runner team come through the campaign perfectly intact - but it's good to be prepared for a well loved character to die; the game lends itself to that. A particularly merciful GM might twist the rules left, right and otherwise for you - but don't expect that kind of treatment unless the GM spells it out up front.)

Bonus) - While not technically from Shadowrun; a (probably mangled) Schlock Mercenary quote is appropriate here:

"Always get paid twice."

Basically - if you can steal extras for yourself during a run without compromising the mission - do it. There's all kinds of crazy stuff out there you can loot if you put your mind to it in a game. (You may also give your GM a real "Wait you're taking WHAT?!" moment too)

Obviously, don't sacrifice the mission for the sake of looting; but keep your eye out for valuables that you can snag. Especially things people will assume destroyed if you have to blow the facility as part of the mission.

---

All of the above is just stuff I've learned from years of dying horribly in the shadows <.< Not applicable to all campaigns or GMs; and exceptions to every rule exist - but as general guidelines they've never failed me.

... Well after the first few hundred horrible demises <'x'>

ResplendentFire
2009-07-11, 08:10 AM
3) Corps aren't omniscient, nor are the police. Otherwise Runners wouldn't exist due to futility. Ie: If you want to confront your runners at their safehouse for some reason, make sure it's both dramatic and logical; because they'll almost certainly have to pack up in short order afterward - causing all kinds of potential havoc.

Letting the Corps find them after every. Single. Damn. Run. will cause your players to revolt.

To add to this point, the setting has a lot of factors that keep police and corporate power in check with dealing with Shadowrunners.

Shadowrunners allow for plausible deniability - corporations make use of them because it enables them to say they're not responsible. This also means that corporations know that Shadowrunners are working for someone else's agenda.

Extraterritoriality means that shadowrunners raiding a megacorporation are not on Lone Star's turf or breaking Seattle or UCAS law.

Also, at least in Seattle, aside from extraterritoriality, Lone Star doesn't have complete jurisdiction everywhere - if you know where they don't have jurisdiction, crossing those lines can help greatly.

TheCountAlucard
2009-07-11, 08:10 AM
We're still kinda unsure as to who's going to run the game...

Most of my experience in running games is from D&D 3.5, and I'd rather not have to GM for Shadowrun unless I have to.

One of my players is kinda interested in GMing, but has very little experience in the matter.

The other two players have neither experience nor interest in running a game.

We also briefly tossed around the idea of having someone else GM for us. I'm going to talk to some people about it later, but I doubt anyone will bite. ("Hey, want to run a game of Shadowrun for me and my friends?" Yeah, they'll jump right on that, won't they? :smalltongue:)

NPCMook
2009-07-11, 08:26 AM
We're still kinda unsure as to who's going to run the game...

Most of my experience in running games is from D&D 3.5, and I'd rather not have to GM for Shadowrun unless I have to.

One of my players is kinda interested in GMing, but has very little experience in the matter.

The other two players have neither experience nor interest in running a game.

We also briefly tossed around the idea of having someone else GM for us. I'm going to talk to some people about it later, but I doubt anyone will bite. ("Hey, want to run a game of Shadowrun for me and my friends?" Yeah, they'll jump right on that, won't they? :smalltongue:)

Won't know unless you try!

wadledo
2009-07-11, 11:37 AM
On the of chance somebody who knows about Shadowrun can answer this for me, why do the Nartaki in Runners's Companion cost 25 BP when the variants used only total to 10?:smallconfused:

Even if you include fluffy stuff (like being part of a group a little less than 5000 total and Brahmin, all of them) it should equal somewhere in the range of 20ish, maybe less.

mcv
2009-07-11, 01:09 PM
adepts are weaker,

Are they? I don't have much experience with 4th edition yet, but I made a gunslinger adept who can shoot four people before anyone can react. Street Magic has even more cool abilities for adepts.

I haven't fully read them yet, but I think I like the new hacking rules (I don't think they use the word decking anymore, and hackers now include riggers I think). Specialists like mages and hackers seem less locked up in their own private universe.

I've got a little anecdote in support of the advice to make sure everybody fits the same sort of campaign/power level/level of violence. It goes back to Shadowrun 2nd edition. The very first time I'd played Shadowrun, in fact.

I'd heard about street samurai and combat mages, but I wanted kind of a regular guy. Well, not entirely regular -- he was a dwarf with a mohawk and a chopper -- but he didn't have magic, boosted reflexes or anything like that. And that meant he was completely useless. For the next adventure, I decided to make a more effective character. Borrowed the rulebook, and finally settled on a Shaman adept. Only spellcasting, no spirits or anything vague like that. Because her highest priority was resources, which meant she had enough money for a big power focus and lots of spell locks. Despite being a magician, I also gave her the smartlink cyberware. Dropping target numbers from 4 to 2 was just too good to pass up, and the big power focus more than compensated for the loss of Essence. And of course she had an AK-98 and stabilising harness.

End result: without making any roll, she could boost her Reaction and Reflexes, turn invisible, fly, and shoot full auto without penalty. All at the same time.

I'd clearly found the loophole in Shadowrun 2nd edition. In 3rd edition, spell locks had gone.

GreyMantle
2009-07-11, 01:17 PM
If you're going to do anything more than just a couple basic games, I would highly recommend using the alternate rules presented in The Ends of the Matrix (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48836). Essentially, it takes the entire 4E Matrix ruleset and makes it slightly more believable, interesting, and easier to use. It also removes the crazy tricks that were possible to do with the old rules, but that probably won't be necessary if you're just starting out.

It also revises some of the more basic rules (mostly with BP costs and Adept Powers) to make the game run better.

Also, the rewrite of Technomancer fluff is absolutely wicked.

TheCountAlucard
2009-07-14, 02:11 AM
I was considering playing an insomniac, socially-withdrawn hacker, but one of the other players said he was interested in playing a rigger - I figured I'd see what else I could come up with before making something that'd overlap with his.

My second thought was something a little more humorous, a face, a trid actor who stars in cheap "B" movies about 'running (which get it all wrong)... but given the tendency for shadowruns to feature very illegal activities, I'd have to work pretty hard to make sure his "good name" doesn't get sullied. (Perhaps he's also a master of disguise...?) I'm not really sure yet, build-wise.

Our third player hasn't given much thought to character creation yet.

Lost Demiurge
2009-07-14, 09:05 AM
Shadowrun's fun as hell! I've found 4E to be pretty easy to GM, and relatively intuitive. Some notes from my experiences...

1. If you're GMing and you've got a hacker/techno in the group, don't be afraid to trim the rules down. The hacking rules are much improved from previous editions, but they're still a pain in the ass in some ways. Abstract the hacker's actions to a few rolls that make sense, don't make him roll for every damn thing.

2. Read up on magic, make sure you understand how it works. Your basic magician can look into the astral, travel in astral form to do scouting, and ward stuff against astral entities. If your group doesn't have a mage or shaman you don't have to read up on this right away, but sooner or later it'll help to know how all of this works.

3. Adepts are action movie heroes. They're usually built to be able to do awesome physical stunts. LET THEM DO THIS.

4. Initiative passes are the key to scaling. If the combat monkeys in your group have three, then everyone else but the strict non-combat types should aim to have two, or have a good reason as to why they don't. If EVERYONE in your group has three, then smile and pump up the opposition.

5. If you're GMing, old Shadowrun published adventures can easily be retrofitted. Just ignore the crunchy rules, and use the fluff and structure. With a few exceptions, the old adventures are usually awesome, or at the least entertaining. Recommend the following to start; Bottle Demon, Dreamchipper, Eyewitness, and Queen Euphoria.

Avoid Harlequin and Harlequin's back. Trust me on this.

6. Guns are frickin' deadly. Playing a troll in previous editions was like playing a tank. Here, it means you might take three shots to drop, rather than two. Armor's been nerfed, and even a light pistol is a threat... The rent-a-cop firing it might get lucky.

7. Don't neglect sources of stun damage. One good taser, gas grenade, or stun baton can drop a target nonlethally... Which sometimes helps quite a lot when dealing with local police, or folks who would otherwise be collateral damage.

8. Don't ignore availability. Unless it's a high-stakes campaign, most characters shouldn't start with equipment higher rated than 12 availability. Any more than that, and you start getting into mil-grade stuff. That kind of stuff's available if you know the right folks and have the nuyen... But it shouldn't be available at the start of the game.

9. Remember, BE SUBTLE! If you're carrying a panzer assault cannon down the street night or day and you're NOT in a warzone, then it WILL get noticed. Bystanders will run for cover, and if there's any chance at all the police will show, then they will be called. Same goes with various other weapons... When in doubt, check with your GM to see what he envisions the local gun control laws to be, and how strict his setting gets on such things.

Doesn't mean you can't play with the big guns. Just means that you should conceal them when not in use, and prepare to get out of dodge fast, if you use them in any place where there's fast police response. Speaking of which...

10. Always have a plan to get out of any place you're in. At the end of the day, you're paid to do a job... But the job can go sour at any point. If you get into something too big, or things are getting too suspicious, then plan an escape route. Figure a way to cut and run that leaves your options open... Remember, in most cases, there is no one true way to complete a mission. You can always try another approach to complete the run, and if you don't want to finish the run, then you can usually find a way to profit out of the situation...

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-14, 09:14 AM
Not sure how much of this is actually useful and how much falls squarely under "Well, DUH", but still some lessons I learned from my spectacular GM failures in Shadowrun:

-It's been said before, but it bears repeating, make sure the GM and the players are all on the same page about what kind of game you want to play. Nothing kills a Shadowrun game faster than major disparities in player power.

-This one is more for new GM's: the runners won't be fighting fair, neither should you. Runner with an assault cannon? Sniper. That runner's a walking target, don't be afraid to treat him like one. Mage throwing full Force Manabolts around nuking everyone in sight? He'll find himself on the receiving end of a hit team with a more powerful mage protecting them...or he'll just get a sniper bullet to the head too. The GM is particularly responsible for checking the players in this game. The game world is literally out to get them sometimes, especially after a run, they are criminals after all, don't neglect that.

-Runners in general are going to be head-and-shoulders above most security mooks. This is normal. Most security is just there to slow the runners down while the High Threat Response team mobilizes. If the HTE arrives while the runners are still there, then the runners had better be fearing for their lives.

-Enforce the availability rules. There's already a gap between the power of most mooks and the runners, access to high end gear will only make it worse. Getting your hands on something like an assault cannon shouldn't be a lucky find, it should be a run all on it's own. Fixer's get killed over some of this stuff, the players shouldn't have it much easier unless they have the nuyen to burn.

Farlion
2009-07-14, 09:30 AM
I can only support your idea. Shadowrun is my favorite RPG. I only play 3e, so I won't give any rule considerations.

Here some things from my experience:

- Shadowrun is really deadly. Make it clear to your players. Either before playing, or during. Don't hesitate to shoot someone if he doesn't leap for cover when someone pulls a gun.

- Don't use one shot snipers. It just pisses people off. Atleast give them a chance to respond. And seriously, if a Mafiaboss wants someone killed, they won't use a sniper, it's just not personal enough. :smallamused:

- Decide on a "harshness" level with your players. My players once interrupted my explanations, because my descriptions were too brutal for them. I tend to draw my Shadowrun world with black and grey, almost no white and colors. The streets are mean, sometimes too mean for the players.

- Be really careful when putting together a team. I've had multiple players be rejected by others, just because they didn't fit in the team or just simply didn't provide any advantage.

- Last but not least, very important, can't emphasize enough: Don't hesitate to kill players. The world is deadly, runners are cheap. There's a bunch of them around and their life expectancy is short. Making new characters might take a while, but compared to other roleplaying systems, making a new SR character does not leave you behind alot.

Damn, now I also want to play SR again... but I can't find enough people who see SR the same way I do.

Cheers,
Farlion

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-14, 09:47 AM
- Don't use one shot snipers. It just pisses people off. Atleast give them a chance to respond. And seriously, if a Mafiaboss wants someone killed, they won't use a sniper, it's just not personal enough. :smallamused:


Felt I should probably say something, being the one that suggested snipers.

He's right, a one-shot assassin is reserved for particularly egregious players or runners that just don't know how to keep a low profile. But this should be an adventure in and off itself: if an assassin is that good that he was hired particularly for the purpose of taking out high-profile runner A, then there should be some real reasoning behind it (otherwise known as a Plot Hook).

What I meant by snipers is this: think about hostage situations and the like, there are usually sharpshooters. Why would this world be much different? Especially if whomever is coming after the runners knows how dangerous some of them are. They're not going to take any chances, especially in a world where there are people that can pop your head like a pimple just by looking at you. Easiest way to threaten a mage is to get him before he sees you.

Krrth
2009-07-14, 09:56 AM
Here's a question for the bunch of you. My gaming group has just started a 4e Shadowrun campaign. The group consists of:
1) a human Phys Adept
2)a human Face
3)a human infiltrator
4) a troll street sam
5)a elven shaman (me).

Now, we just had our first session Sunday. What should we be on the lookout for as a group? What holes do we need to fill?

I don't know what most of the other players has, except the troll who is cybered to a fail the well.

My shaman has: heal, improved invisibility, powerbolt, combat reflexes, cure disease, and clout.

Lost Demiurge
2009-07-14, 10:14 AM
Krrth, that's honestly a great mix. You don't have a hacker, but if one of you has a good NPC contact of a hacker or fixer (Who can arrange a hack or two if needed), then you won't miss him.

You could maybe use a rigger, or hacker but all in all your group's looking really balanced for most situations you'll run into.

As far as spells go, not bad, not bad. I wonder about the utility of Clout, if I were you I'd swap it out for stunbolt, or stunball. I'm assuming combat reflexes is the spell that gives the target extra initiative passes?

Also, what's your summoning skill at, and what is your magic attribute set to? Summoning of about 3 is a GOOD choice for any mage, and if your magic's not 5, then you'll want to karma it up to 5 first chance you get.

Krrth
2009-07-14, 10:18 AM
Magic trait is at a 5, spellcasting is at a 4, summoning is a 3.

Clout is there for the stun damage, which looks like it may come in handy since our run is a kidnapping mission. Didn't know that to begin with, but....

Advice on playing a magic user? This is my first time trying, so I really don't know how to use them to the best advantage.

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-14, 10:32 AM
Magic trait is at a 5, spellcasting is at a 4, summoning is a 3.

Clout is there for the stun damage, which looks like it may come in handy since our run is a kidnapping mission. Didn't know that to begin with, but....

Advice on playing a magic user? This is my first time trying, so I really don't know how to use them to the best advantage.

You're a glass cannon. Manabolts may seem like a good way to clear a room right up until you mess up that drain roll and end up sitting on some heavy Stun damage.

You're going to be shot at, probably a lot, once anyone you're fighting realizes you're a mage. Remember to duck. If you have some way of staying out of sight while slinging spells, even better. Remember, the line of sight requirement for magic is only messed up by non-optical viewing means. So if you have a set of binoculars that are purely optical lenses, rather than electronic enhancement, then you're now the groups best sniper.

Sustaining foci/Spell Locks are your friend. Wired reflexes for mages. Everyone in the group probably has some kind of initiative boosting ware and many security mooks will have a dose or two of an initiative boosting combat drug.

Heal is a last-resort/life-saving spell, not Cure Light Wounds. Try not to use it unless you have to.

Use your Astral senses, you can see what no one else in your party can.

Krrth
2009-07-14, 10:48 AM
OK, Spell locks. The GM mentioned them, and also mentioned they would be hard to get, as well as expensive. He did recommend that when I manage to get one, I tie the spell that increases initiative to it.

I did pick up a couple of doses of scram, it think it was? Anywho, it's one of the drugs that up initiative.

Fortunately for me, our face also has a decent medical rating. That means the group isn't depending on me to keep everyone alive, and the Troll's player is really happy since my heal is at significant penalties when healing him.

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-14, 11:03 AM
OK, Spell locks. The GM mentioned them, and also mentioned they would be hard to get, as well as expensive. He did recommend that when I manage to get one, I tie the spell that increases initiative to it.

Didn't let you get any a character creation? I'm pretty sure a low-level one is within the availability rules of equipment at chargen...


I did pick up a couple of doses of scram, it think it was? Anywho, it's one of the drugs that up initiative.

Drugs are good in a pinch for players, but not something you want to rely on.



Fortunately for me, our face also has a decent medical rating. That means the group isn't depending on me to keep everyone alive, and the Troll's player is really happy since my heal is at significant penalties when healing him.

And your drain is dependent on the level of the wound you're trying to heal, if I remember correctly.

Mages that try to act like DnD clerics pretty quickly find themselves in need of having to be carried out on the back of the troll teammate.

Krrth
2009-07-14, 11:07 AM
Nope. I was told I'd have to spend Nuyen and Karma to get one. Couldn't start with one.

I figured the drugs are good enough until I can get a spell lock. I hope. I'm really hoping that during any fights they'll go after they large troll and ignore my little invisible self.

Heal has a drain of Wound Value healed -2, so it's fine for light stuff. Of course, you can only use it once per injury, so......

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-14, 11:12 AM
Nope. I was told I'd have to spend Nuyen and Karma to get one. Couldn't start with one.

In game. You can bond foci at chargen using spell points (or something else in 4th ed).

I mean, the GM has the final say and all and nothing I'm saying has any merit if the GM said "not at chargen," but still.


I figured the drugs are good enough until I can get a spell lock. I hope. I'm really hoping that during any fights they'll go after they large troll and ignore my little invisible self.

You're already thinking like a mage.

"let the troll go first, I'll just wait here..."

I was fond of using the troll as a pommel horse to reach high places, myself. Was the only one who took Acrobatics to get over some of those fences...:smallbiggrin:

Krrth
2009-07-14, 11:29 AM
We did have some restrictions during character creation that weren't in the book, so that might have been it. I did ask about getting one, but I'm guessing that was one of the GM's "No" file. Along with a lot of restricted items, fake documents greater than level 2 and the like.

Lost Demiurge
2009-07-14, 12:40 PM
Ah, I see. Yes, your GM is scaling the game a bit, so you don't start with super-useful gear. That's entirely fine, and it's a good sign. Means he's got a power level in mind. Easier to start low and build up, really.

As far as multiple initiative passes... They're nice, but if you're starting low, you shouldn't need them unless things go all to hell, or your combat wombats manage to pull BIG aggro. Let them do their 2-3 things a round, then hang back and throw a selective spell, or remote control a spirit.

You bought assenssing, right? This is a VERY useful skill for astral work. It's also easy to miss, so if you didn't buy it, talk to your GM and trade something in for a few ranks of it.

Things that a mage can do:

A mage can look into the astral: Use this to scope out scenes for wards, mana irregularities, illusions, spirits, and other mages in the astral. Just be aware that when you look into the astral, it becomes MUCH easier for astral things to see you. Still, it's good for checking for astral security. Assenssing is necessary for seeing things in the astral.

A mage can travel in the astral: Plop your body somewhere safe, and do astral scouting. Assenssing is good here, too. If the target site you're scouting has no wards, spirit guardians, or mages/critters with astral sight, you essentially get a free look. You'll be able to poke your head through walls and doors, see living things, and mess around. Best of all, you can escape easily... Astral travel's FAST (As in it takes less than a couple of hours to circle the Earth FAST), so if something goes wrong, two seconds later and you're back to your body.

A mage can guard his team with counterspelling: As a free action, you can put up counterspelling for anyone that you can see. This provides them with bonus dice to resist magic, equal to your skill in counterspelling. There's also active counterspelling, you might want to read up on that. This is BIG protection, and might save your combat monkey's life someday.

A mage can call up spirits: Spirits are your main stopgap in heavy combat until you have a reliable way to gain multiple initiative passes. Call up the spirit, and send it in to mess stuff up. Draws attention off of the somewhat less expendable team members, and spirits are hard to hurt unless the other side's got magic (or a fair amount of explosives). Spirits get two initiative passes a round, and a force 4 or 5 spirit can handle most everything save a street sam or adept.

Spirits are also good for guarding you in the astral, and providing spell support. The air spirit can conceal an entire group, providing a huge debuff to anyone trying to spot you sneaking around... This is no small thing. The spirit of man can be given one spell of your choice, any spell that you know. THIS is a good way to give someone combat reflexes, without slapping yourself with a -2 dice penalty to all rolls while sustaining the spell.

Finally, a mage can cast spells: You've got a good selection, and you know how to use'em. Short-term, look for gaps in your team's capabilities that spells could augment, and make note of which new spells to learn to help fill those gaps. Long term, check into obtaining sustaining foci. Both of these options will take karma and probably nuyen, so save some of both toward this goal.

Last piece of advice. Once you've raised your magic to 6, it's not the end. There's something called Initiation, that lets you raise up beyond that, and teaches you the fun metamagic tricks. I wouldn't consider it until after you've hit 50 total karma, but if the game runs that long, read up on it by then.

That's about all I can think of right now...

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-14, 01:09 PM
Ah, I see. Yes, your GM is scaling the game a bit, so you don't start with super-useful gear. That's entirely fine, and it's a good sign. Means he's got a power level in mind. Easier to start low and build up, really.


I was thinking the same thing, really. In the time I spent playing I found that more and more GM's were modifying the chargen rules with added restrictions on certain things. But then, given how apparently easy it is to create a superman right out of the box, I'm not surprised.

But then again, I sucked at GM'ing, so that might have been a contributing factor.

I can't believe I forgot about spirits. Infinitely useful things right there. Summon up one or two before a run, they really can save your team's lives with the right use of their powers.

'Course, having a spirit or elemental whip up a windstorm in a crowded hallway can be fun all on it's own.

Lost Demiurge
2009-07-14, 01:29 PM
Yep, spirits are good. However, the trick there is that unless you're popping out watcher spirits, you can only call up one spirit at a time.

If you want more spirits, you need to bind them, and that gets expensive. Binding is something best done after you've got a few missions and some paychecks under your belt... The materials cost, and choosing the spirit you want to bind is a little tough. Best to wait until after you've had a few sessions to try out different spirits, and see which ones you want to keep around long-term.

Krrth
2009-07-14, 02:15 PM
Right, so I need to brush up (ie, sit down and read) the rules on summoning spirits. I don't know if it matters, but my totem is Sea, and fire spirits don't like my character all hat much.

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-14, 02:28 PM
If I remember correctly, summoning a spirit is Conjuring + Magic and the number of successes equals the number of favors that spirit owes you. You can only ask it to do certain things and unless you bind it the spirit vanishes after a day. It's not something you can do on the fly (except maybe Watchers), but the things they can do make them invariably helpful.

Watchers are special spirits that can really only do a few things, they might not even actually be spirits. They can follow someone, keep watch, annoy the hell out of someone, and that's about it.

comicshorse
2009-07-14, 06:29 PM
A mage can look into the astral: Use this to scope out scenes for wards, mana irregularities, illusions, spirits, and other mages in the astral. Just be aware that when you look into the astral, it becomes MUCH easier for astral things to see you. Still, it's good for checking for astral security. Assenssing is necessary for seeing things in the astral.

Of course the other thing to remeber is Assessing means you create a link between yourself and the Astral. Assense and if there's a Mage in the Astral he can now fry your ass with spell :smalleek:

Raum
2009-07-14, 07:41 PM
Does anyone have any advice for this fledgling group of 'Runners?I don't know fourth edition (GMed second) so I'll avoid anything rule specific and concentrate on more general advice.

- Come to a consensus on what type of game the group will play. From my experience there are two general types - stealthy sneak and steal groups and noisy smash and grab groups. Expect lots of planning and research with the first type and lots of explosions and combat with the second.
- As GM, don't screw the characters over too much. Yes it's a genre convention. It's also boring and expected by the umpteenth betrayal. I'd recommend no more than once per campaign. Note, that's campaign not adventure!
- Whether GM or player, always be aware of the characters' current environment and the inhabitants' social conventions. Carrying a weapon in the barrio is expected. It's not expected at the Firemen's Charity Ball. Remember how observers will react as well as what security devices may be in the area.
- As GM, it's often better to require non-combat hacking to be accomplished by an NPC. This avoids downtime for the majority of the group while running one player through their own adventure. It also avoids the need for creating the network (essentially a second adventure in second ed) which that character would be running through. In compensation I generally gave everyone a free decker contact of average skills. They could meet a better one either through play or by buying a decker contact.
- As a player, set up a safe house and second identity. It's a good place to head when things get too hot for your primary identity.
- Remember, utilize, and cultivate contacts. They can be everything from the source of jobs (not just the fixer either), to extra muscle, information sources, item sources, or even simply a place to crash when you can't make rent.

Plastic Warriors (http://shadowrun.plasticwarriors.org/) has some free SR resources which may be helpful.

Krrth
2009-07-14, 07:43 PM
I do have assesing. Rank 1, but my character does have it. Any spells my shaman should be on the lookout for?

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-14, 08:34 PM
I do have assesing. Rank 1, but my character does have it. Any spells my shaman should be on the lookout for?

You've got Powerbolt, you should consider it's brother: Manabolt. Powerbolt is resisted with the target's body, Manabolt is resisted with Willpower. Depending on what kind of person you're facing that can make a big difference (go ahead, try Manabolting a mage...)

After that, it's really up to preference. What do you want to be able to do with your magic? Fly? Make stuff spontaneously combust (always fun at parties)? Find the spells you like and go with them.

Krrth
2009-07-14, 08:40 PM
Right. Basically, it will come down to getting a hold of a copy of the rules and reading them.

I will say the character is trying to stay away from fire spells for fluff reasons (in other words, spirit bane (fire)).

Swordguy
2009-07-14, 08:53 PM
I do have assesing. Rank 1, but my character does have it. Any spells my shaman should be on the lookout for?

At least:
-1 physical damage spell
-1 stun damage spell
-1 area-effect combat spell (I recommend the stun spell be an AoE; StunBall)
-1 healing spell
-1 Initiative booster
-STERILIZE (this spell is mandatory. It erases any biological trace of your party. You do NOT want your DNA on file, to say nothing of people using said DNA or hair or whatever as a material link for ritual magic).
-Utility spells as you see fit (Invisibility, stuff that disrupts sensors if you have no combat decker, Disguise spells are all good choices).



Since we're talking how to start Shadowrun as a GM, let me share an anecdote. I started a group on SR3 several years ago when SR3 was fairly new; the whole group was completely new to the game. Party composition was entirely human - except for one elf (the party face, who usually went disguised as a human to avoid the elf posers). This became important later.

So, the UCAS is getting tired of the subversive antics of the Ork Underground and all these pesky "metahuman rights" groups, and a Humanis-friendly Senator introduced a mandatory Metahuman Registration Act - including mandatory RFID chips implanted in all metahumans born in the UCAS for ease of tracking. Not having a chip is bad (like, prison camp bad, at best). The bill is incredibly close to passing - preliminary polls have it failing by a mere 3 votes. This is a headline in the faux newsfax I gave to the players at the beginning of the game. Being all human, the players essentially ignored it.

The runners get approached for a job - a Mr. Johnson who has a strong magical aura - the mage determines he's got a glamour up that's disguising him as a metahuman. The run is that someone wants them to break into the local Humanis offices and get a bunch of valuable documents. They can guarantee that the office will be empty at a certain time, and they only thing they ask of the runners is that they stay at a particular isolated motel between acceptance of the contract and the actual run, obstensibly for "operational security reasons". The job paid pretty well (including half up-front) and they got full "salvage" rights - anything they grabbed on the mission besides the actual documents were theirs. The runners took the Johnson at his word and agreed. They then proceeded not to do the slightest bit of research into the Johnson, or what's under his glamour.

So the runners get to the motel, and load out - they'll be staying there for 24 hours. They investigate the area, figure out sightlines and find the local Stuffer Shack, that sort of thing. One of the sharper-eyed players notices an out-of-business gas station across the street (been abandoned for at least 10 years), with a whole bunch of state-of-the-art camera equipment on top of the building...all pointed at the parking lot of the motel. The player says nothing to the rest of the group and dismisses it. The party beds down.

The morning of the run, the group is awoken to the sound of automatic gunfire. They grab guns and pile outside just in time to see a group of metahumans (a knowledge roll revealed that they were the Misfires, an all-metahuman low-grade runner team that was more guns than smarts) rolling into the parking lot with guns smoking. A firefight ensues, and the Misfires end up in the morgue. The party contacts the Johnson, who tells them that the mission is compromised and calls off the run - and that the runners can keep the down payment, along with the salvage from the Misfires. He uses the other teams name - Misfires - without anyone in the party having mentioned it, and the party notices...and then dismisses it as a coincidence or lucky guess.

So the group is relaxing in front of the tri-vid about a week later when the breaking news report comes on. There's been a horrible attack on a group of innocent normal humans by a raving group of metahumans. The humans bravely fought off the metas, but public shock and outrage over the attack (at an isolated motel on the Seattle outskirts) have given the Metahuman Registration Act enough support to pass. The party starts looking confused, when the video of the attack is aired...yup. It's them. On national television.

There's a stunned silence around the table. "We...we were used?! You can do that? You bastard! I love this game!"


(For those not following the plot, the Humanis group set up a run targeting themselves as a way to get a group of all-human runners into a known position [the motel] where they could send another group of metahuman runners, whom they also hired, to attack the humans. They film the resulting carnage, and use the video - properly narrated and spun as the inevitable result of allowing metahumans things like "rights" - to push the Registration Act they sponsored through the UCAS Congress).

The player very QUICKLY learned the importance of doing their research behind the job, not to take stuff at face value, and generally to be paranoid. Ever since, I've essentially run this same scenario to start Shadorun games ever since. It works quite well as a game primer.

It also proved a good source of follow-up campaign play as the runners tried frantically to undo the harm they'd done at the top of the campaign. The metahuman mob with pitchforks, torches, and Ares Predators that trashed their home once they got "outed" was a fun mission too. :smallamused:

comicshorse
2009-07-14, 08:54 PM
Mind Probe and Detect Lies are always good for the interrogations.
My shaman learned a minor illusion spell just so he could make lightning dance around his hands. ( Well you try telling gangers you're really a powerful Shaman and see how far it gets you without a little visual proof)
Ice Sheet is always funny and a life saver against non-rigged vehicles

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-14, 09:04 PM
The player very QUICKLY learned the importance of doing their research behind the job, not to take stuff at face value, and generally to be paranoid. Ever since, I've essentially run this same scenario to start Shadorun games ever since. It works quite well as a game primer.

The saying of Shadowrun GM's everywhere: If your players don't always feel like they've got targets on their backs, then you're not doing it right.

Krrth
2009-07-14, 09:17 PM
Right, Sterilize will be the very next spell I pick up. In fact, I'll see if I can't switch out Cure Disease for it.

TheCountAlucard
2009-07-15, 05:09 AM
I decided to go ahead with the "trid actor" idea. Here are my thoughts so far:

The ability to disguise oneself is outright necessary for this character, and with that in mind, a few other stealth-based items (such as the chameleon suit) probably wouldn't hurt. I'll also need a few fake SINs and licenses, of at least passable quality. If I'm going to be a face, a good number of contacts and knowledges would probably come in handy.

So, am I crazy, or is this concept actually workable?

Swordguy
2009-07-15, 06:02 AM
I decided to go ahead with the "trid actor" idea. Here are my thoughts so far:

The ability to disguise oneself is outright necessary for this character, and with that in mind, a few other stealth-based items (such as the chameleon suit) probably wouldn't hurt. I'll also need a few fake SINs and licenses, of at least passable quality. If I'm going to be a face, a good number of contacts and knowledges would probably come in handy.

So, am I crazy, or is this concept actually workable?

It's workable to a point. It's tempting to make the guy completely worthless at 'actual' combat, since he's an actor, not a real runner...but that's not going to be fun for you or your group. He'll want at least a Pistols-4 skill, and be very paranoid about how you run him once the guns come out.

For the rest of the character - the real meat of him - it's certainly workable. You'll want a high Charisma, obviously, and pump the Con, Etiquette, and Negotiation skills (leave the Intimidation for the Troll with the Assault Cannon). Whether to take Leadership is up to you - there's good argument for it and against it. I tend to lean in favor of giving it to a combat-oriented character for sake of more interesting party dynamics, but since Charisma IS a high skill for you...

Other skills you need include 1 ranged weapon skill, 1 melee skill, and Infiltration and Dodge (these are MANDATORY). It's tempting to load up on skills like Driving, Armorer, Gymnastics, etc., under the guise of "doing your own stunts". Resist the urge for right now. You need to save your BP for contacts. Take the Athletics Skill group instead, at a moderate rating (3-ish).

That's right - you need contacts. As the party face, it's your job to do two things. Know people, and talk to people. The talking to people we've done, so now you need to know people. Lots of them. You need to know what's going on, by whom, and why it's happening in any given part of town.

First, talk to your GM. Making contacts requires a lot of player/GM discussion over who the contact is and what they know (the Connection/Loyalty system in SR4 is a big help here). Secondly, in all previous editions, everyone started with a pair of low-grade contacts for free. Try to push this on your GM (a pair of 1/1 or 2/1 contacts will help out everybody, especially pushed-for-BP PhysAds and Mages). More importantly, make sure you have LOTS of contacts. Here's a good starting list (assuming you're playing in Seattle):

Connection/Loyalty (contact type)

1/2 Squatter in the Barrens (find out about stuff going on at street level outside Seattle proper)
1/2 Squatter in downtown Seattle
2/3 Gang members in at least two gangs. (useful extra muscle to act as emergency backup when you're in over your head)
2/2 Bartender (at least one, preferably three or more in various areas of town - having a bartender contact inside the Renraku Archology, for example, is highly useful).
3/4 or 3/5 Hacker (if you have no hacker in your group, this is a godsend)
4/4 Fixer (possibly your most important contact. High loyalty here is incredibly useful - a 4 loyalty rating is a minimum - and having a fixer with regional ties means you'll be able to get hot data or equipment out of the city. That's huge. Not only that, but one of a Fixer's purposes is to line you up new work, with the understanding you sell your loot to him at a discount rate.)
5/5 Police Captain (the advantages to this are obvious)

This is about 50 BP worth of contacts (assuming you took multiple contacts where advised, and to be fair you can get away without the Police Captain...he's just so useful when you DO get in trouble). This really is a minimum, and there's lots of other contacts that are great to have (think about the utility of a "breaking news reporter" as a contact, or a street doc you can get you cosmetic modification cyber when you need it, or a Hollywood Weapons-handler as an armorer/fixer; their job is to get a weapon, render it safe for use on set, and supervise its use. Imagine what happens if they "lose" a weapon for a SOTA action movie...in your direction).

Luckily for you, you're a face, not a combat monkey, so you don't need a lot of guns or cyber. Some sort of Reflex Enhancer is mandatory, of course (Wired Reflexes 1 is a good idea). Cosmetic modifications cost 0 Essence, so you can freely go under the knife whenever you need to for your next role as the new security guard at the facility you've just been hired to rob (whoops - you left the door unlocked! How clumsy of the new guy!). A smartlink isn't a bad idea (many will say it's mandatory), and for flavor's sake, you really ought to have an implanted simrig. If you're an action star who makes a specialty of playing Wolverine or Lady Deathstrike, Handblades or Retractable Spurs are in order.:smalltongue:

Next, Bioware can be confusing, but is completely worth is. Tailored Pheromones are a must for you, obviously, but just as important is Enhanced Articulation (+1 Dice on ANY Physical skill linked to a Physical Attribute!), and Synthcardium is also pretty nice.

Now with all this stuff, you're gonna be short money at the end for gear. Don't worry - you're all about who you know, not what toys you have. You're going to want a Fake SIN with at least Fake Licenses for the Cyber you take and Pistols (all at Rating 6, don't take chances here). A gun or two (I recommend the Ares Predator, it's a classic), a microtranceiver for communications, an armor vest, and a couple of low-end safehouses paid for for a month or so and you should be good. We're talking maybe 10k in nuyen here, which is only a few BP.

Good disadvantages will include Gremlins (since you don't use a lot of Tech and cyber/bio isn't affected by it), SINner (your real identity), and Simsense Vertigo/Sensitive Neural Structure. If you can get away without using Cyber at all (heavy use of Bioware can do it), then Sensitive System is a great point source. As for Advantages, for the love of god, take First Impression. That's really all you need (Exceptional Attribute is overrated), but Photographic Memory could be useful. Or you could just take good notes. :smallwink:

Oh, lastly, you need to talk to your GM about the disconnect between your "day job" and your running. By all rights, if you're a movie star, you'd have a LOT of money, nice lifestyle, etc. Point out that you'd like to keep all that in the background, without access to it during gameplay, because if you ever got linked at a runner to your "day job", your day job'd be over in an eyeblink. That way, you aren't bound to pay for it with your already-limited starting BP.

That help?

TheCountAlucard
2009-07-15, 06:40 AM
5/5 Police Captain (the advantages to this are obvious)Indeed; back when I first played Shadowrun, I had a police captain as one of my contacts. Too bad the game died so soon... :smallfrown:


That help?Very much so, thanks. :smallcool:

Swordguy
2009-07-15, 06:56 AM
Very much so, thanks. :smallcool:

Actually, since work got called off this morning, I've sat down with a character generator to make sure what I told was was actually possible with the 400 starting BP. It is (I recommend this spreadsheet Bottom of the page (http://pavao.org/shadowrun/generators/)):

Human Face

Attributes
Body 3
Agility 4
Reaction 4
Strength 3
Charisma 5
Intuition 3
Logic 3
Willpower 3
Edge 4

BP to money: 23 ($115,000)

Active Skills:
Athletics (group): 3
Con 4
Dodge 2
Etiquette 5
Infiltration 4
Knife 2
Negotiation 5
Pistols 4

Knowledge Skills
x4 skills @ 4 each

Language Skills
English (Native)
Spethriel 2

Qualities
First Impression
Gremlins 2
Scorched
Sensitive Neural Structure
SINner (standard)
Allergy (Uncommon/moderate)

Contacts (Loy/Con)
Redmond Squatter 2/1
Seattle Squatter 2/1
Gang member 3/2
Gang Member 3/2
Bartender 2/2
Bartender 2/2
Hacker 3/4
Fixer 4/4
Police Captain 5/5

Cyber/Bioware
Wired Reflexes 1
Simrig
Tailored Pheromones 2
Enhanced Articulation
Synthcardium 1
=$96,000

Gear
Dodge Scoot
Fake Sin 6
Cyber License 6
Pistol License 6
Armor Vest
Microtranceiver 4
Renraku Sensei Commlink
Renraku Ichi OS
Skinlink
Subvocal Mike
Ares Predator
Concealable Holster
100 rounds regular Heavy Pistol Ammo
10 rounds EX-explosive ammo
2 Smoke Grenades
2 months Low Lifestyle (safe house)
=$18,085

Character has $915 remaining of $115,000



The character even has 4 BP left over to buy an extra contact, pick up up to $20,000 more "stuff", buy some more language or knowledge skills, or whatever. It's not really minmaxed, but you're in a group that's fairly new, so that shouldn't be too much of an issue. :smallwink:

Lost Demiurge
2009-07-15, 09:38 AM
With those 4 bp left over, I'd recommend buying the skill of Perception at level 1. Granted, you'll only be rolling 4 dice to notice things, but it's better than 2 dice. (Intuition -1 for unskilled rolls.)

TheCountAlucard
2009-07-15, 10:51 AM
All right, all finished building Briggs Jackson, aka "Silverscreen." :smallcool:

I want a Sleep Regulator for real life now. :smalltongue:

NPCMook
2009-07-15, 11:43 AM
I've wanted to try building a character that is kind of based off of JGR/JGRF, rolls in and uses Nanites(Augmentation) in Spray cans to put guards to sleep while he bursts by on his motorised Roller Blades. The only problem is I can't find anything on Motorised Roller Blades... Except for the Cyber Skates, but I'd like to kind of keep this character out of the Cyber Limb Department if I could.

kjones
2009-07-15, 12:07 PM
I've wanted to try building a character that is kind of based off of JGR/JGRF, rolls in and uses Nanites(Augmentation) in Spray cans to put guards to sleep while he bursts by on his motorised Roller Blades. The only problem is I can't find anything on Motorised Roller Blades... Except for the Cyber Skates, but I'd like to kind of keep this character out of the Cyber Limb Department if I could.

You didn't really want any Essence, did you? :smalltongue:

Swordguy
2009-07-15, 12:09 PM
You didn't really want any Essence, did you? :smalltongue:

Meh, SR4 is post-cyberpunk, so Essence loss isn't that big a deal anymore anyways. I don't think they even have the table showing the penalties you take on social skills for having low Essence anymore.

NPCMook
2009-07-15, 12:12 PM
You didn't really want any Essence, did you? :smalltongue:

?? How would staying out of the Cyberlimb department leave me low on Essense? I'd probably go with the Move-By-Wire system over Wired Reflexes, same Essense cost, and overall better

Lost Demiurge
2009-07-15, 12:14 PM
Motorized roller skates? Hell, just talk with your GM. They sound simple enough, he'll probably charge you a few hundred nuyen and let you have'em straight up.

Really, the true joy of Shadowrun is that you don't need to have EVERYTHING on the equipment list.

Hell, the face in the last game I ran wanted to buy "The Little Black Dress." She didn't elaborate, so I got to stat it up.

She got the LAST word in sexy style, and upper class mingling assistance. It had a color coordinating chameleon nanite sequence, so that it would match JUST the right shade of black as the surroundings, self-adjusting stitches, to stretch or shrink as style demanded, self-repairing (and cleaning) nanofabric, charged static emitting microdiodes to keep dirt and dust off, and nearly-invisible skillwires with electrodes that ran up to the base of her skull that gave her access to a free etiquette specialty subroutine specialized in mingling with the obscenely rich. Internal temperature regulating weave with biomonitor, so that she'd barely sweat or shiver in a 40-100 degree climate unless she wanted to.

Game terms? Gave +2 dice to etiquette rolls when wearing the dress in high-class formal occasions. That's all. Availability 20, cost 25,000 nuyen.

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-15, 12:16 PM
Meh, SR4 is post-cyberpunk, so Essence loss isn't that big a deal anymore anyways. I don't think they even have the table showing the penalties you take on social skills for having low Essence anymore.

I don't even remember a table like that in 2nd edition. Admittedly it's been a while though...

kjones
2009-07-15, 01:39 PM
?? How would staying out of the Cyberlimb department leave me low on Essense? I'd probably go with the Move-By-Wire system over Wired Reflexes, same Essense cost, and overall better

I meant the opposite - go ahead and take the cyberlimbs, you don't really need Essence.

Swordguy: You're just an old grognard. 4e is the future, man. :smallbiggrin:

On an unrelated note, has anyone here run the "On the Run" module? I'm considering it for a new group (and I'm just getting into Shadowrun myself).

NPCMook
2009-07-15, 01:42 PM
I meant the opposite - go ahead and take the cyberlimbs, you don't really need Essence.

Swordguy: You're just an old grognard. 4e is the future, man. :smallbiggrin:

On an unrelated note, has anyone here run the "On the Run" module? I'm considering it for a new group (and I'm just getting into Shadowrun myself).

I have not, sadly everyone around here had 1 bad experience with Shadowrun and so no one really plays it. They are all currently going gaga over Dark Heresy, and soon Rogue Trader.

Swordguy
2009-07-15, 02:06 PM
I don't even remember a table like that in 2nd edition. Admittedly it's been a while though...

SR 3rd edition, page 93, Cyberware and Social Interaction. Short version: apply a +1 to all non-Intimidation social target modifiers for each 2 points of visible cyberware. So bioware doesn't count, and neither does non-visible cyber (skillsofts, for example). We're talking cyberlimbs here, or obvious cybereyes, or dermal plating.



Swordguy: You're just an old grognard. 4e is the future, man. :smallbiggrin:


Hey! Screw you! I'm 29 - I reject the label of old. :smallwink:


Alternate punchline: "They said that about D&D4e, and look how well that's turned out." :smallamused:


[off topic]
Grognard is another matter - I liked my games when it took serious intellect to play them (I likes my Advanced Squad Leader, for example). Now that many games have been dropped in complexity to make them more accessible to the mainstream, I'm forced to confront how many idiots there are in the mainstream. Which then answers the question why I seem to come across so many more idiots playing RPGs than I used to... *grumble, grumble* "where's my musket..."
[/off topic]

Lost Demiurge
2009-07-15, 02:27 PM
On an unrelated note, has anyone here run the "On the Run" module? I'm considering it for a new group (and I'm just getting into Shadowrun myself).

I have... And honestly, I found it a little lacking.

Go do a google for "Shadowrun Missions". You should turn up a mess of free downloads, about a campaign's worth. Most of those are good intros to the system for a group of newbies.

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-15, 02:51 PM
SR 3rd edition, page 93, Cyberware and Social Interaction. Short version: apply a +1 to all non-Intimidation social target modifiers for each 2 points of visible cyberware. So bioware doesn't count, and neither does non-visible cyber (skillsofts, for example). We're talking cyberlimbs here, or obvious cybereyes, or dermal plating.

Oh right, now it's coming back to me.




[off topic]
Grognard is another matter - I liked my games when it took serious intellect to play them (I likes my Advanced Squad Leader, for example). Now that many games have been dropped in complexity to make them more accessible to the mainstream, I'm forced to confront how many idiots there are in the mainstream. Which then answers the question why I seem to come across so many more idiots playing RPGs than I used to... *grumble, grumble* "where's my musket..."
[/off topic]

Hey, I've got a spare rocker over here, wanna have a seat and start yelling at the passerby to get off the lawn? :smallwink:

Krrth
2009-07-15, 07:55 PM
Oh right, now it's coming back to me.




Hey, I've got a spare rocker over here, wanna have a seat and start yelling at the passerby to get off the lawn? :smallwink:

Naaa....that's what the pellet guns are for.

kjones
2009-07-16, 09:29 AM
I have... And honestly, I found it a little lacking.

Go do a google for "Shadowrun Missions". You should turn up a mess of free downloads, about a campaign's worth. Most of those are good intros to the system for a group of newbies.

Do you have any specific suggestions? I must admit, I wasn't crazy about "On the Run". I like that it introduces the idea that Mr. Johnson should not be taken at his word, but I think any mission with several steps of "find that guy" (first, find the orc who was emailed about the disk, then find the hacker, then...) just leads to confusion and wanderin' about.

Lost Demiurge
2009-07-16, 09:48 AM
Do you have any specific suggestions? I must admit, I wasn't crazy about "On the Run". I like that it introduces the idea that Mr. Johnson should not be taken at his word, but I think any mission with several steps of "find that guy" (first, find the orc who was emailed about the disk, then find the hacker, then...) just leads to confusion and wanderin' about.

Let's see... Any of the first 10 are good starting points, with a few exceptions. I'd avoid "Chasing the Dragon", as it's a follow-up to a previous mission. There's also one called "Wetwork, pure and Simple" which can be frustrating if run as written. Not sure if it's in the first 10, though...

Anyway, they were free as of a year or two ago, and should still be out there if you look hard enough. They were all set in Denver, but that's easy to change. The underlying theme of the campaign was "Too many mobsters", and showed a lot of subtle and not-so-subtle conflicts between a lot of competing crime syndicates. Some good characters there, that are easily swiped for home campaigns.

Most of 'em were good. More importantly, they were all made to be run in a 2-4 hour timeslot. Just find them, read through them, and pick one you like.

EDIT: Oh, and you're right about On the Run. I have two gripes with this module. One is that it's hard to find the initial clues. REALLY hard. STUPID hard. If you MUST run this adventure, throw in some clues that aren't annoyingly subtle. Otherwise the pc's will flounder, and get lost and frustrated.

My other gripe, is that the bulk of the adventure only happens if the PC's decide to investigate further. If they just hand the disk over to their Johnson, they're done. There aren't many good clues that it would be, oh, profitable to investigate further.

Check out the older adventures, or Missions. Much better, in my opinion, for a starter run or six.

kjones
2009-07-16, 01:00 PM
Thanks for the suggestions! I'm looking at "The Grab" right now, it seems interesting. "Thrash the Body Electric" looks cool too, but a little light on details for a group with no SR experience.

Rasilak
2009-07-16, 01:32 PM
I don't know who suggested it first, but starting the group with some kind of tailchaser really is a good way to show that new runners are generally regarded as worthless scum and paranoia is greatly beneficial to survival.
An alternative is starting them with some kind of "recruitment test". Either the classic one:
"Eliminate this team of Shadowrunners, here's some background info on them. They'll be after you, too. The surviving team gets some cash and a nice job. Oh, and the game is on once you're out of this room..."
Or something more creative. One of my favorites:
The teams have to capture an abandoned oilrig (or some other nice, defensible place slightly too large for the team and in the middle of nowhere) and hold it until the end of the contest. Each team starts with a 24-hour offset, winner is the team who is still on the oilrig when time's up. (Bonus: You don't need to tell the team it's a test...)
Works out for the Johnson, since there will probably be at least some talented newbs among them (who are cheap, but quite good), and nobody cares about the posers who bite it in the process (plus, he only has to pay one team in the end, no matter how many teams apply). Works out for the team (if they win), since they'll probably get some jobs from the Johnson (a J who knows that you're good is a nice thing), and can pillage some stuff from the others.

Blacky the Blackball
2009-07-17, 02:23 AM
Thanks guys!

This thread not only tempted me out of lurk mode, but also got me reminiscing about Shadowrun so much that I decided to replace my missing copy.

I looked over the newer editions, but didn't really like the grittier feel and more complex rules. I'd rather have light hearted sub-superheroic Matrix-style Shadowrun than darker-and-edgier Chinatown-style Shadowrun.

In the end, I decided to go with the version I was familiar with rather than a newer version (I originally had 1st edition, bought the week it came out in 1989 and "lost" in 1991 when I left university and lost contact with the person I'd lent it to).

I managed to find a second-hand copy for £2.00, so now I just need to wait for it to be delivered...

Did any of you guys used to play 1st edition?

kjones
2009-07-17, 06:06 AM
Wait, are you saying that 4th edition has the "grittier feel and more complex rules"? I thought Swordguy was complaining of just the opposite!

NPCMook
2009-07-17, 06:12 AM
Wait, are you saying that 4th edition has the "grittier feel and more complex rules"? I thought Swordguy was complaining of just the opposite!

There honestly is no difference in Grittiness between any edition, its up to the GM to portray grit. If there is not enough for you, then ask the GM for more.

4th edition made playing a Decker viable with the group, instead of its own session with the GM

Blacky the Blackball
2009-07-17, 07:15 AM
Wait, are you saying that 4th edition has the "grittier feel and more complex rules"? I thought Swordguy was complaining of just the opposite!

I'm comparing it to 1st Edition, remember, not 3rd (which is what those saying it's been simplified are comparing it to). And not even 1st-Edition-plus-all-the-supplements but core-rulebook-only-1st-Edition. For example, there isn't even such a thing as a physical adept yet because they weren't introduced until later.

Look back at the advice given at the beginning of this thread. It's all about being paranoid and crazy-prepared, and having to fight dirty to survive. The point of the advice being that you can't charge in with guns blazing because you'll be mown down.

My memories of 1st Edition are the opposite. 1st Edition characters - and the cartoony art reinforces this - are almost on the power level of minor superheroes. You can mow down corporate goons Feng Shui style, completely outclassing them. Think in terms of the lobby scene in The Matrix.

To use a video game analogy, if they were FPS games then 1st Edition would be Duke Nukem 3D and 4th edition would be Thief. In one you charge in with a big gun and a wisecrack, mow down the enemy, and blow up the building. In the other you skulk around the shadows picking off enemies one by one and try to get in and out without being spotted and killed.

Of course, I may be looking through the rose tinted spectacles of nostalgia here...

Lost Demiurge
2009-07-17, 08:10 AM
Of course, I may be looking through the rose tinted spectacles of nostalgia here...

You are, but that's fine. If 1st ed works for you and you've found a copy, go for it!

I'll be over here with my Ghost-in-the-shell inspired 4th ed. :D

Swordguy
2009-07-17, 08:21 AM
No offense, dude, but I think you are.

1st edition Shadowrun was intended to be run as a highly-gritty, Blade Runner-esque world (plus magic) where you're essentially disposable street trash. Technology is something to be wary of and feared, and you have to deal with the dichotomy that you have to cyber up to be competitive and do your job, but each piece of cyberware you install means an irrevocable loss of humanity (in 1e and 2e, for example, by RAW, once you'd lost Essence, you could never get it back, even if the cyberware was later removed, IIRC as an optional rule you could get it back if the cyber was removed in 3e). You COULD load up on cyber or high-end magic and be badass, but you're the first person I've heard who played 1e that way. Hearing that feels like hearing about the Vampire: TM players who played the game as a beat-em-up pulp action game where they're better than all the "normies". You can do it, but that's clearly not how the game was intended to be played.

The editions got progressively less-gritty until 4th edition.

4th edition Shadowrun doesn't take its main influence from Blade Runner, Neuromancer, or the dull, dark, and depressing arms of true cyberpunk. It takes inspiration from the post-cyberpunk glow of series such as Ghost in the Shell: Stand-alone Complex. Where technology isn't inherently harmful to the human condition, and is instead a good thing that could be argued to be the next logical stage in human evolution. Cyberware beyond a datajack is considered almost a natural thing to get - like having a cell phone issued by your employer today. The game plays at a higher inherent power level, with heavily-cybered characters being the norm for figuring challenging bad guys (rather than early editions, where cyber would be a bonus above and beyond what you'd normally be expecting, in 4e, the game assumes that everyone fighting will have some sort of enhanced reflexes, for example - where the vast majority of published NPCs in 1, 2, & 3e had no such abilities). Now, certainly, you CAN play 4th edition as a gritty game. But that's not inherently where the setting, mechanics, and inspiration lie.

Blacky the Blackball
2009-07-17, 09:11 AM
You are, but that's fine. If 1st ed works for you and you've found a copy, go for it!

And the reverse is fine too, of course. I'm certainly not trying to imply that the newer editions are in any way inferior to 1st edition - just that I prefer 1st edition's style (or at least style as I perceive it to be; other peoples' mileage apparently varies).


I'll be over here with my Ghost-in-the-shell inspired 4th ed. :D

You young'uns with your anime! Get off my lawn!



No offense, dude, but I think you are.

That wouldn't surprise me. After all, I haven't played the game for nearly 20 years.


1st edition Shadowrun was intended to be run as a highly-gritty, Blade Runner-esque world (plus magic) where you're essentially disposable street trash. Technology is something to be wary of and feared, and you have to deal with the dichotomy that you have to cyber up to be competitive and do your job, but each piece of cyberware you install means an irrevocable loss of humanity (in 1e and 2e, for example, by RAW, once you'd lost Essence, you could never get it back, even if the cyberware was later removed, IIRC as an optional rule you could get it back if the cyber was removed in 3e). You COULD load up on cyber or high-end magic and be badass, but you're the first person I've heard who played 1e that way. Hearing that feels like hearing about the Vampire: TM players who played the game as a beat-em-up pulp action game where they're better than all the "normies". You can do it, but that's clearly not how the game was intended to be played.

I think it was much more clear-cut in the case of Vampire. The art and style of the book were very dark, and the text - even the sub title ("A game of personal horror" or somesuch) - made it clear that it was supposed to be a dark game even if many people didn't play it that way.

Shadowrun might have made it more explicit in later supplements, but armed with just the core rulebook and the first couple of them - and with little to no Internet to compare experiences with other groups - things like the cartoony artwork, the introductory story where the characters easily blow up the security people following them and ride off into the sunset with very little implied danger, and the general "Elves with katanas!" "Trolls with skin that can stop bullets!" "Big Guns!" "Mages blowing up cars with fireballs!" wow factor; it never seemed at all dark to my group.

The later supplements may have emphasised the darker side of things, though. Especially after Earthdawn was released and they started tying the games together and implying that Earthdawn's Horrors were poised to take over Shadowrun's future...


The editions got progressively less-gritty until 4th edition.

I'll have to take your word for that. I'm comparing my 18-year-old memories with the descriptions I'm seeing here (and a read-through of a borrowed 4th Edition rulebook).


4th edition Shadowrun doesn't take its main influence from Blade Runner, Neuromancer, or the dull, dark, and depressing arms of true cyberpunk. It takes inspiration from the post-cyberpunk glow of series such as Ghost in the Shell: Stand-alone Complex. Where technology isn't inherently harmful to the human condition, and is instead a good thing that could be argued to be the next logical stage in human evolution.

You see, I'd have applied that to 1st Edition too. I find it hard to square the dark and depressing "true" cyberpunk themes with the cool-as-ice elves-on-motorbikes imagery of 1st edition.


Cyberware beyond a datajack is considered almost a natural thing to get - like having a cell phone issued by your employer today. The game plays at a higher inherent power level, with heavily-cybered characters being the norm for figuring challenging bad guys (rather than early editions, where cyber would be a bonus above and beyond what you'd normally be expecting, in 4e, the game assumes that everyone fighting will have some sort of enhanced reflexes, for example - where the vast majority of published NPCs in 1, 2, & 3e had no such abilities).

Well that could be taken either way. PCs have (and again I'm comparing early 1st edition with 4th edition and skipping everything in-between) always had access to lots of cyberware and magic. If the NPCs didn't usually have those sort of abilities in earlier versions it would reinforce the "PCs are special" aspect where the PCs are able to take on a small army and get away with it; whereas when the NPCs are more comparable to the PCs in ability, the PCs are not as "special" and the world is much more dangerous (and, dare I say, gritty) for them.

And as for the ubiquity of cyberware, we always saw that as "PCs are on the cutting edge, with superior stuff to most others" rather than "PCs are desperate, so more willing to put up with dehumanising risks than others".


Now, certainly, you CAN play 4th edition as a gritty game. But that's not inherently where the setting, mechanics, and inspiration lie.

From the posts earlier in this thread, it looks as though people are playing it as a fairly gritty game.

In truth, I expect that any edition can be played in a more or less gritty fashion, depending on the preferences of the players.

Britter
2009-07-17, 10:03 AM
When I played 2e, I found that my games started off pretty gritty and dangerous, up until the point where the PCs had enough Karma Pool to begin doing all the crazy Matrix-style stuff that made them appear as unto tiny gods, and the nuyen to buy the really nice toys. Of course, since they worked really hard to get that Karma and money, the arc of their improvement didn't really bother me much, but it did feel like it was very hard to challenge them at the time. (They have since told me that they did in fact feel VERY challenged, which is good I guess, but for the life of me I felt like I was simply unable to put them into any sort of challenging situation back then) So for me, end game 2e felt like what Monkey Pants is describing, and I sorta missed the dangerous and gritty feel.

In my current 3e/2e hybrid, I am being extremely careful with the dispensation of Karma and gear in an effort to keep a more controlable power curve, and to try to hold onto a gritty feeling, even as they improve. So far, it has been sucsessful.

So, point is that as in any system, as the player characters gain power the tone of the game may change, and so long as we are all having fun it is all good. that being said, I prefer Gibson to Ghost-in-the-Shell for my cyberpunk. YMMV.

sombrastewart
2009-07-17, 10:19 AM
A tenant my 4th edition group lives by:
-Always spend more time planning than you think is necessary. Always.

Our crew has (at 300 original build):
-Dwarf shaman specializing in spirits, but using utility spells like STERELIZE, Stunball, Heal, etc.
-Human hacker, cybered up pretty seriously
-Ork adept who is just insane in combat. He calls frag grenades 'flashbangs' because, to him, they're the same.
-My character is a face with some cyber (eyes, ears) with Wired Reflexes and a high Pistol skill for when things get hairy.

I'd say we do alright, but our success is about fifty-fifty right now and we're on a run that would take us up against a Triple A corp...