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Seerow
2005-10-31, 09:48 PM
I brought this up on a tangeant in another topic, but I figured I'd get a response here. What I want is the ability to have the flavor of a soulknife, without actually having to use that class. But then, after reading the topic about the proposed Mage class, and somebody brought up Improved Sunder, I thought "Well, that wouldn't be such a problem with a spirit staff...."

So here's what I propose, 5 new feats and a new item set.

Soul Weapon
Prerequisite: Wild Talent

Benefit:
A character who takes this feat may, as a move action, create a semi-solid weapon composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind. This weapon is a simple melee weapon, of a type chosen by the caster (the weapon type is chosen upon taking this feat), and is identicle in all ways to a normal version of the same weapon as appropriate to his size. For example, a medium human who choses a Dagger would conjur a medium size dagger and deal 1d4 points of damage () The weilder of the mindblade gets appropriate bonuses to hit and damage from strength.

The mindblade may be broken (it has 10 hardness and 10 hit points), but may simply be reconjured on the user's next move action.

This sword may be used in conjunction with feats such as Power Attack, Weapon Focus and Combat Expertise. Powers or Spells that upgrade weapons may be used to upgrade a Soul Weapon.

Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a character can attempt to sustain his soul weapon by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, the Character maintains his mind blade for a number of rounds equal to his character level before he needs to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a move action on his turn, the soulknife can attempt a new Will save to rematerialize his mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect.

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. It's effects do not stack. Every time this feat is taken, the character gains another simple melee weapon he can create.


Martial Soul Weapon
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Soul Weapon

Benefit:
A character who takes this feat gains a new Martial Melee weapon he can materialize. It is similar in all respects to the weapon gained from the Soul Weapon feat, save that this one is a martial weapon.

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. It's effects do not stack. Every time this feat is taken, the character gains another martial melee weapon he can create.

Exotic Soul Weapon
Prerequisites: BAB+13, Martial Soul Weapon

Benefit:
A character who takes this feat gains a new Exotic Melee weapon he can materialize. It is similar in all respects to the weapon gained from the Soul Weapon feat, save that this one is a Exotic weapon.

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. It's effects do not stack. Every time this feat is taken, the character gains another Exotic melee weapon he can create.


Free Draw
Prerequisites: BAB+5, Soul Weapon

Benefit: A character with this feat may conjur a Soul Weapon as a free action.

Normal: Conjuring a Soul Weapon normally takes a move-action

Throw Soul Weapon
Prerequisites: BAB +3, Soul Weapon

A character with this feat can throw his soul weapon as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet.

Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mind blade then dissipates. A character with this feat may use special abilities with his thrown mindblade.

This ability may be used only once per round. Feats such as Manyshot, Rapid Shot, or any similar effect do not affect this ability.


New Item:

Soul Focus

Description: This handheld piece of wood or metal ranges from 4 inches to a foot long, made for various types of soul weapons. The item itself costs 330 Gold. If used the focus item will make the Soul Weapon more defined, giving it the masterwork quality and associated bonuses.

Any enchantment placed on this item is carried onto the mindblade (except when the mindblade is thrown). These enchantments stack with the Soulknife's class enchantments, even exceeding a +10 total bonus(but not exceeding a +5 Enchantment bonus).





Now for my evaluation. Basically, as I said, I just wanted to be able to use a psychic-ish weapon without being a Soul Knife. I see that as an ability people should be able to do if they have Psionic Ability, and the Soulknife is simply a specialization in this.

I made the BAB bonus for Martial based on Soulknife getting a martial weapon at level 5, so even a fighter would have to wait on extra level to gain the ability. I was uncertain on giving Exotic at all, , but figured by level 13, a character could have done much more, and it gives an 18th level Soulknife something of a new toy to play with.

All the same, I felt it necessary to give the Soulknife some boost, so I allowed for focus items to stack. Im not sure how that'll work out (I can just see a +1 Cracktoy of Doom on a soulknife who has a +5 weapon by level 20 anyway), but they needed something. I considered just giving them a BAB boost to make up for not being unique anymore, but Im not sure about that. And they still get their fair share of goodies, including free enchantments and Psychic Strike.

Balanced? Unbalanced? Stupid? Waste of everyone's time? You tell me.

idksocrates
2005-10-31, 10:13 PM
Okay, first of all, it shouldn't work in a null psionic field. Period. There is no saving throw in a null psionic field (assuming it works like an anti-magic field - tell me if I'm wrong). If your stupid enough to find yourself in a null-psionic feild without any type of secondary, mundane weapon, you deserve to die.

Second, Soul Focus should not stack with Soul Knife class. Their both enhancement bonuses. Enhancement bonuses don't stack. If its not an enhancement bonus, then it's too overpowered and needs to be changed to an enhancement bonus.


Third - a limit needs to be placed on the blade itself. The ability to summon up a spear whenever you want to, an infinite amount of them for that matter - is far too powerful for just one feat.
Summoning the blade would count as your use of the wild talent feat, and it would only last for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your character level.

Fourth: The feat tree you use - simple/martial/exotic, isn't right. The feats should limit damage, not the rareness of the weapon.

I would suggest

Lesser Soul Weapon: d6 damage, standard crit
Soul Weapon: d10 damage, 19-20 or x3
Greater Soul Weapon: 2d6 damage. 18-20 or x4

the weapon can look however you like, but it has those stats. (criticals are chosen at time of casting).

Seffbasilisk
2005-10-31, 10:19 PM
yeah. Otherwise you'll get one with a good BAB who just pump out thrown soul scythes with each attack.

Seerow
2005-10-31, 10:23 PM
1) The Soulknife class allows it to be summoned in a Null Psionic Field. Thus I made it the same for the feat. I wanted the same basic thing, but without the extra bonuses Soulknifes get. I don't see conjuring it within a null psionic field as a Soulknife only thing.

2) Fine, do you have a better idea for giving Soulknife a boost to make up for not being so unique anymore?

3) I don't see why you would need to do that. How is summoning a spear and throwing it every round broken? When thrown, I got rid of enchantment bonuses from the focus, so you're throwing essentially a completely normal weapon. A fighter of 6th level(what is needed for Martial Soul Weapon) *could easily have a large stock of javelins, and possibly a bag of holding, or a magical quiver, or some other similar magical item to keep pulling them out of at one per round. He could even take the quickdraw feat to do the same thing as Free Draw if you want to look at that as broken.

As for what can be summoned with each feat. If you look at Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons, they follow that general trend. I believe I read somewhere that weapons are built on a point buy system, and landing within certain ranges gets you your weapon type.

Edit: I thought I specified one/round with the throw. Multiple throw is a 17th level Soulknife ability, and I didn't wish to create a feat to replicate it(except perhaps as an epic level feat). So if you're worried about that, I'll edit that part of the description.

bingo_bob
2005-10-31, 10:45 PM
I know you're aware of this, but I feel that this REALLY cheapens the soulknife. I mean, ALL of it's uniqueness is just sucked right out of it...as well as it's power.

You'd have to revamp that class, really.

Seerow
2005-10-31, 10:55 PM
Which is why Im asking for suggestions.

The only thing Ive really thought of is giving them the Good BAB, and maybe making Psychic Strike increase every other level.

Really, Soulknife really has a bunch of little goodies, they're just generally overlooked.

Also, as I see it, to get a Soul Shortsword, it takes one of your feats. To be able to do half of what a Soulknife can, it takes 4. For anybody but a fighter, that's 2/3 of your feats, a pretty hefty price. The Soulknife still gets this free, plus their 6 feats, plus free enchantment(as opposed to paying for it in the form of focus items, allowing you to afford better armor), and some bonus feats.


I've considered a few other things, such as allowing a Soulknife an ability that allows them to empower their sword further and make it a full size category bigger for X ammount of rounds X times per day. (Think Kuwabara from YuYu Hakusho when he gets mad and makes his sword a lot bigger. The ability would probably be "Soul Rage" or something similar.

And you have no idea how much it pains me to use an anime as a reference to get an idea across. ><)

Harnryd
2005-11-01, 01:11 AM
Apart from what has been said, I've a couple of minor suggestions:

1: I take it that you can only have one created weapon in existence at any one time. It might be a good idea to make this crystal clear in the description.

2: You mention that the weapon is semi-solid. Then you say that it's identical in all ways to a normal weapon (including hardness and hp). I suggest you drop the "semi-solid" descriptor.

3: It is a bit overpowered. Limiting its use to 1/day and having it disappear after 1 hour seems better to me.

jdrich
2005-11-01, 01:35 AM
A suggestion?

The Soulknife should not be a base class. The Wilder should not be a base class. We would be better if both were subsumed with feats, powers, and/or a PrC. I say the soulknife would be best as a PrC.

Seerow
2005-11-01, 10:14 AM
Harnyrd: But see, that defeats the entire point.The idea is I just want to be able to spend feats to get the Soulknife flavor without having to be in the soulknife class. Now, if you can only use your weapon once per day, how does that work? Sure, you can conjur a blade out of nothing, but you get it for probably one fight(if you have more than 2 fights in an hour, you have issues) and that's it. And if you dissipate it by letting go, or throw it, well that's it for the day.

As for the Semisolid description, I merely put it in exactly as it was described in the Soulknife class.

Jonathon: Soulknife as a class is already widely considered underpowered. Why would you go and make it a PRC on top of that?

And I still like the idea of the class, but I see it more as a specialist. One who focuses completely and totally on their mindblade, thus it gains powers similar to those gained from a focus item, without the focus, and get the goodies like Psychic Strike, Speed of Thought, and a few bonus feats.

I've tossed out ideas for improving them further to make up for losing originality, but I haven't gotten -any- suggestions from any of you, except limiting the feats unreasonably.

Serpitus
2005-11-01, 11:11 AM
Far be it for me to critique any ones work. I am no munchkin or powergamer but Here's what I would do.

Wild talent
Soul weapon
BAB+5
Free draw
also
Soul focus item +5 exploding, flaming, slaying, etc..
(really everything I could get into a weapon)
Soul focus item + 5 silver, iron, etcc
(then as many more as I could afford covering all possible combos)

The weapon I choose is Arrow

And then I have an unlimited number of extremely powerfull arrows at my disposal.

Don't like arrow how about dagger (thrown) Nice to use on those sneak attacks but I need the throw soul weapon feat also.

Rigeld
2005-11-01, 11:18 AM
Far be it for me to critique any ones work. I am no munchkin or powergamer but Here's what I would do.

Wild talent
Soul weapon
BAB+5
Free draw
also
Soul focus item +5 exploding, flaming, slaying, etc..
(really everything I could get into a weapon)
Soul focus item + 5 silver, iron, etcc
(then as many more as I could afford covering all possible combos)

The weapon I choose is Arrow

And then I have an unlimited number of extremely powerfull arrows at my disposal.

Don't like arrow how about dagger (thrown) Nice to use on those sneak attacks but I need the throw soul weapon feat also.

He stated that the enhancements dont carry over when the weapon is thrown. Since Arrows arent Simple, Martial, or Exotic, you cant mindblade them.

Gamebird
2005-11-01, 12:00 PM
I've tossed out ideas for improving them further to make up for losing originality, but I haven't gotten -any- suggestions from any of you, except limiting the feats unreasonably.

It looks to me like there have been several suggestions. That you have not found them "reasonable" doesn't mean they weren't made. If several people are making identical suggestions about limiting the power of these feats, you might take a moment to reconsider the reasonableness of their request.

Personally, I can't quite put a finger on it, but being able to conjure a weapon anywhere, anytime, under any circumstances seems very powerful to me. I haven't read the Soulknife class, so I can't compare it to that, but let's think about the sorceror. A sorceror often needs material components (or has to take a feat to eschew them) and almost always needs at least verbal or somatic. The casting can be disrupted in a number of ways, from gagging, tying or simple AoO.

Admittedly a sorceror's spells are a lot more flexible than the ability to conjure a relatively normal weapon. But that's all a sorceror does. A fighter (or anyone else, I mention fighter just because they have lots of feats and the ability to never be disarmed might be more useful for them than most) could take these feats in addition to their usual class abilities. At six feats, it's an entire feat tree, especially if you don't make any of them Fighter feats, so your usual character would have to spend all their feats on it to have them all.

Compared to other things you can spend your feats on... well, in most circumstances it would suck. In a few very select circumstances, it would rock and rule. I'm very wary of overly selective and specialized feats. A feat that lets you kill Orcus no saving throw seems "balanced" in that the odds of facing Orcus is very low for any given campaign. Of course, if you had a feat that let you kill a greater demon automatically, no save, no resistance, then of course the entire party would work hard to get you into a position where you could use it. Poof! No more Orcus. Probably not a good feat because it changes the entire game. And this soul weapon stuff smells like it has a whiff of the same thing to it.

coredump
2005-11-01, 12:17 PM
Harnyrd: But see, that defeats the entire point.The idea is I just want to be able to spend feats to get the Soulknife flavor without having to be in the soulknife class.
Basically, as I said, I just wanted to be able to use a psychic-ish weapon without being a Soul Knife. (this is from OP)
..... but I haven't gotten -any- suggestions from any of you, except limiting the feats unreasonably.

Well, I think that is because you have a different view of what is 'unreasonable'. As you stated, you want the advantges, without having to actually be a soulknife. It is like all the rogue players that immediately create/find feats to let them crit/SA undead/etc.

The mindblade it *the* essence of being a Souleknife, it would be like making a feat that will allow you to cast spells, or to wildshape, or get SA damage.

Thing is, you already know that it is too powerful, since you now say you have to improve the Soulknife to 'compensate'. A feat chain should *not* force you to improve a class in response. Again, like making a feat that allows 1d6 SA per 2 levels, and to 'copmpensate' giving the rogue 1d6 per level.

I realize you want the 'coolness' of having a mindblade; but I don't think you can do what you want, and maintain balance. If my rogue wants the 'coolness' of better BAB, or Rage, or spellcasting, or etc.... he needs to multiclass. I say keep it the same for your guy that wants a mindblade.

I could see, possibly, feats that allow a mindblade, but nowhere near the power that you are allowing. You are allowing a fighter to be a better Soulknife than a Soulknife is.



thus it gains powers similar to those gained from a focus item, without the focus,But at a lower level. Only a +2 at levels 8-11, those with the focus will have betters ones by then.
and get the goodies like Psychic Strike,At the cost of a move action, which means no full attack. That is almost always a bad trade.
Speed of Thought, and a few bonus featsSince the most likely user of these feats is a fighter.... it isn't that big of a deal.

Now, it also depends. I am assuming that you an take these as fighter feats. If you do not allow this, it will not be as bad.


Fighter 6.
Wild Talent
Soul Weapon (long spear)
Martial Soul Weapon (greatsword)
Free Draw
Weapon Focus (soul weapon)
(Pick 2)
Weap spec (soul weapon)
Speed of thought
Throw soul weapon
any other feat

Other advantages:
Better BAB
reach weapon
better martial weapon
choice of weapons
choice of feats
two attacks per round
Proficient in all martial weapons, and all armor
weap spec

disadvantages
Pay for weapon enhancements
have to carry throwing weapons
no psychic strike

Sure looks like the fighter has the distinct advantage.

And *that* is why people keep wanting to make 'unreasonable' changes to your feats.

Harnryd
2005-11-01, 01:25 PM
Harnyrd: But see, that defeats the entire point.The idea is I just want to be able to spend feats to get the Soulknife flavor without having to be in the soulknife class. Now, if you can only use your weapon once per day, how does that work? Sure, you can conjur a blade out of nothing, but you get it for probably one fight(if you have more than 2 fights in an hour, you have issues) and that's it. And if you dissipate it by letting go, or throw it, well that's it for the day.

As for the Semisolid description, I merely put it in exactly as it was described in the Soulknife class.


I confess that I don't know anything about the soulknife class. I still find the term "semisolid" misleading if it has no game effects whatsoever.

I suggested 1 hour because that's plenty of time to run around in a castle or wherever, fight lots of small fights and be prepared to fight several more.

But I understand your view that taking an aspect of a non-prestige class and converting it to a feat-tree should be OK.

I don't use psionics in my campaigns - I find all my magical needs filled by arcane and divine spellcasters - so maybe that's why I find your original version unbalanced.

Seerow
2005-11-01, 02:19 PM
Far be it for me to critique any ones work. I am no munchkin or powergamer but Here's what I would do.

Wild talent
Soul weapon
BAB+5
Free draw
also
Soul focus item +5 exploding, flaming, slaying, etc..
(really everything I could get into a weapon)
Soul focus item + 5 silver, iron, etcc
(then as many more as I could afford covering all possible combos)

The weapon I choose is Arrow

And then I have an unlimited number of extremely powerfull arrows at my disposal.

Don't like arrow how about dagger (thrown) Nice to use on those sneak attacks but I need the throw soul weapon feat also.

Did you completely miss everything I've said? I specified melee weapon, so no arrows.

You must take the throw soul weapon feat to throw your dagger, so not until level 3 at least.

And you don't get an "extremely powerful arrow" as I specified the weapon focus doesn't apply to a thrown Soul Weapon. If you throw it it loses all those bonuses, so it's exactly the same as a normal, metal dagger, except that it bypasses Damage Reduction of -/Magic.

Sure it's an unlimited number, but you can only throw one a round. Meanwhile you could take Quickdraw as a feat, have enchanted daggers, or a bow with enchantments or enchanted arrows(or both) and Rapid Shot, and get that much more in.

*notices that Rigeld pointed this out for him already* thank you.


It looks to me like there have been several suggestions. That you have not found them "reasonable" doesn't mean they weren't made. If several people are making identical suggestions about limiting the power of these feats, you might take a moment to reconsider the reasonableness of their request.

No, I asked specifically for suggestions on how to improve the soulknife class, not to weaken the feats. Yet I have gotten no suggestions reguarding improving that class in the least. If there's some in there that I missed, please point them out to me.


Personally, I can't quite put a finger on it, but being able to conjure a weapon anywhere, anytime, under any circumstances seems very powerful to me. I haven't read the Soulknife class, so I can't compare it to that, but let's think about the sorceror. A sorceror often needs material components (or has to take a feat to eschew them) and almost always needs at least verbal or somatic. The casting can be disrupted in a number of ways, from gagging, tying or simple AoO.

Please, go read the Soulknife class before arguing then. It's in the SRD, not hard at all to find.

And as I said, the Soulknife is often considered underpowered despite having this ability.


Admittedly a sorceror's spells are a lot more flexible than the ability to conjure a relatively normal weapon. But that's all a sorceror does. A fighter (or anyone else, I mention fighter just because they have lots of feats and the ability to never be disarmed might be more useful for them than most) could take these feats in addition to their usual class abilities. At six feats, it's an entire feat tree, especially if you don't make any of them Fighter feats, so your usual character would have to spend all their feats on it to have them all.

Compared to other things you can spend your feats on... well, in most circumstances it would suck. In a few very select circumstances, it would rock and rule. I'm very wary of overly selective and specialized feats. A feat that lets you kill Orcus no saving throw seems "balanced" in that the odds of facing Orcus is very low for any given campaign. Of course, if you had a feat that let you kill a greater demon automatically, no save, no resistance, then of course the entire party would work hard to get you into a position where you could use it. Poof! No more Orcus. Probably not a good feat because it changes the entire game. And this soul weapon stuff smells like it has a whiff of the same thing to it.

Actually, it's 5 feats.

Also, unless you wanted to truely specialize in it, you don't need all 5. As I said, I wanted it for flavor, not power. I want the flavor of a character having a blade formed of the energy from their own mind, without having to be in the Soulknife class. What if I want a Paladin who has a Longsword completely unique to himself? He could do this by 5th level.

A Mage could have a staff of his own creation at first level, and could use enchantments later on to make it further unique to him.

The idea isn't gamebreaking, it's flavor. Thus, Im not worried about it sucking compared to other feats. I just want it to be an option. And unless you have an enemy you know is an expert at Sundering, and will do it constantly, you don't have much of an advantage. Your analogy example is really pretty far off, as this isn't a "Haha I kill something instantly". The most I can see it doing is allow for entering places where concealed weapons would normally be unallowed.


Well, I think that is because you have a different view of what is 'unreasonable'. As you stated, you want the advantges, without having to actually be a soulknife. It is like all the rogue players that immediately create/find feats to let them crit/SA undead/etc.

Tell me, what situations would come up where a Soul Weapon would be that much extra of a benefit compared to a normal weapon and I'd understand your argument. Unless as a first level character you're fighting creatures with DR -/Magic, as I keep repeating, it's good for little but flavor.


The mindblade it *the* essence of being a Souleknife, it would be like making a feat that will allow you to cast spells, or to wildshape, or get SA damage.

And the Soulknife consistently improves his Mindblade as he gains levels. A Fighter with a Soul Weapon isn't going to have a stronger weapon than a Soulknife if you're going by Wealth-By-Level guidelines.


Thing is, you already know that it is too powerful, since you now say you have to improve the Soulknife to 'compensate'. A feat chain should *not* force you to improve a class in response. Again, like making a feat that allows 1d6 SA per 2 levels, and to 'copmpensate' giving the rogue 1d6 per level.

But Im compensating for them losing originallity than anything I percieve as it actually being broken. Because that's all the Soulknife really was, an original idea. Well, what if I want to have a Soul Weapon, but don't want it to be a sword? What if I want to have a Soul Weapon but don't want to stay in one class permanently to keep my weapon up to par with other characters.

I see Soulknife as a class highly limiting to what could allow for fun concepts.


I realize you want the 'coolness' of having a mindblade; but I don't think you can do what you want, and maintain balance. If my rogue wants the 'coolness' of better BAB, or Rage, or spellcasting, or etc.... he needs to multiclass. I say keep it the same for your guy that wants a mindblade.

I could see, possibly, feats that allow a mindblade, but nowhere near the power that you are allowing. You are allowing a fighter to be a better Soulknife than a Soulknife is.

See, you say to multiclass. But I pointed out above that you have nowhere to go if you don't want a sword. Beyond that, if we aren't accepting the feats, we aren't accepting the focus either, which means that your Mindblade is going to be much weaker than anything you could buy relatively easily.


But at a lower level. Only a +2 at levels 8-11, those with the focus will have betters ones by then.

Which is why I had wanted to allow for the focus to stack with the Soulknife's Mindblade, but that was shot down as being too broken.

Also, don't forget that the Soulknife also gets enhancements, so technically his Soulknife would be considered a +4 (+2 Mindblade +2 Enhancement).

At 11th level the Fighter has 21,000 gold to play with. A +4 weapon costs 32,000 GP. So no, the Fighter can't really compete with the power, he just gets a better choice in where he allocates it.

And actually, if you go by the normal restriction of "no more than half your money on one item" said Fighter can't get beyond a +2 bonus. So he might have a +1 Flaming focus, but that's it. The Soulknife can have a +2 Keen Psychokinetic Mindblade.


At the cost of a move action, which means no full attack. That is almost always a bad trade.

It gives them a nice edge early on (Until about level 8), also you can always have the Psychic Strike charged, and at least have that extra damage for your first hit.


Now, it also depends. I am assuming that you an take these as fighter feats. If you do not allow this, it will not be as bad.

I know you consider me an idiot, but I did think about allowing them as Fighter feats, then thought to myself "Why?" Really, a Fighter has no better ability to learn how to conjur a Mindblade than anybody else, so no, he could not take them as his bonus feats.

If I wanted them as Fighter Bonus Feats, Id have specified that in my descriptions.

Even if I DID allow it as Fighter Feats, let's look at your example.

You say this is a fighter at 6th level? Let's assume he's human then...

1st(Human)-Wild Talent
1st(Fighter)-Weapon Focus (soul weapon)
1st(General)-Soul Weapon (long spear)
2nd(Fighter)-(Something)
3rd(General)-Throw soul weapon
4th(Fighter)- Weap spec (soul weapon)
6th(General)- Free Draw
6th(Fighter)-Martial Soul Weapon(Greatsword)

There is one spare feat, but nowhere for Speed of Thought to be picked up.

Also at 6th level he's spent all of his feats on nothing but his sword and free draw pretty much.

A generic fighter build could have bought a Great Sword, then got Quick Draw, Improved Throw(or something to let him throw if he absolutely must throw his great sword around), Weapon Focus, and Weapon Spec, and have something like 4 feats leftover.

Though, not allowing for Fighters to take it as a bonus feat, by level 6 really denies them only Freedraw by about 3 levels using the above.

But, while the Fighter is doing all this, the Soulknife has 4 feats of his own he can play with

[qupte]Other advantages:
Better BAB
reach weapon
better martial weapon
choice of weapons
choice of feats
two attacks per round
Proficient in all martial weapons, and all armor
weap spec [/quote]

BAB-This is true, no getting around that
Reach Weapon-Does Melee include reach? If so, I should specify the intention was not to Or at least not something like a spiked chain o.0. If not, what?
Better Martial Weapon-Im not sure on this one. Sure being able to get a Greatsword is nice, but Bastard Sword isn't half bad. Certainly not a dissadvantage.
Choice of Weapons-This was one thing I wanted, again for flavor. For the most part, a warrior who just wants to chop things up is taking a sword anyway.
Two Attacks Per Round-Can't the Soulknife get this? =\
Proficient in...-What other weapon do you really want? The Soulknife can use their weapon as a ranged weapon for free at third level. Personally, I never use heavy armor regardless, so I can't speak for heavy armor. But the Soulknife's extra money being able to funnel into a better make of armor should make up for that.
Weapon Spec-I'd probably allow for a Soulknife to use Soulknife levels in place of Fighter levels for Specialization in mindblade. It makes no sense not to except to preserve Fighter "uniqueness". I mean they already get Greater Weapon Focus, which is supposed to be Fighter only I believe.

So yes, there's still advantages, but not as great as you point out. I think it balances with the disadvantages.

Gamebird
2005-11-01, 03:45 PM
No, I asked specifically for suggestions on how to improve the soulknife class, not to weaken the feats. Yet I have gotten no suggestions reguarding improving that class in the least. If there's some in there that I missed, please point them out to me.

I must have really misunderstood your posts then. So you don't want any comments about the feats - you only want comments about the soulknife class? Why did you post the feats then? ???

You said
So here's what I propose, 5 new feats and a new item set.

So ... what you are proposing is ... er... it looks like you're proposing these feats, but you don't want us to talk about the feats... you want us to talk about the soulknife class. Do you maybe mean that you want to replace the soulknife class with these feats? In which case, wouldn't talking about the feats, as feats, be relevant?

I'll wait for clarification.


Tell me, what situations would come up where a Soul Weapon would be that much extra of a benefit compared to a normal weapon ...

The classic D&D situation is where the party wakes up stripped naked, in a field. DM says, "Okay, what do you do now?" Or the only-slightly-less-classic situation where the DM has the bad guys capture the heroes and strip them of weapons and take them before the BBEG. Or perhaps the combat goes worse for the PCs than the DM imagined and he decides to salvage it by having the PCs taken prisoner instead of killed.

And as I have pointed out, having the conjuration of a soul weapon be a move equivalent, non-AoO action makes it more useful than any similar magical effect that might conjure a weapon. You've made it almost exactly the same as drawing a weapon (along with a feat to emulate Quickdraw), except that a soul weapon has advantages over a normal weapon (not least of which is being able to penetrate DR/magic, which I wasn't clear on - as a power available at 1st level, that seems a little hefty to me).

Seerow
2005-11-01, 04:17 PM
I posted the feats for things such as you pointed out, with you thinking it's too powerful early on. Things like prerequisites being changed to make the levels it's obtained more reasonable.

What I don't want to do is restrict it so you can only use it X times a day.

The comment you quoted and responded to, where I was asking for suggestions, was me asking for suggestions on how to helpthe Soulknife. The topic as a whole is for general discussion, but that particular quote was asking for one specific thing.

And lets say your character does get stripped naked in the field. That means he has lost his focus item, if any.

At first level, yes, this character will have a distinct advantage.

By the time the party has magical weapons? Probably not.

But even at first level. Compare it to Improved Unarmed Strike. Any simple weapon can do, at max, 1d6 damage. A character with Improved Unarmed Strike matches that, but a null psionic/magic field almost always nullifies the weapon at this level(You have what, a +2 Will at best? As a Fighter +0?) While the Improved Unarmed Strike character gets his attacks in regardless. Same situationalness.



And no, I wasn't proposing these feats to erradicate the Soulknife, I want the flavor of them without being forced to specialize in it, but I also want to keep the Soulknife in as someone who Specializes soley in his Mindblade, and gain appropriate benefits. I guess the reason I've gotten no suggestions on how to do this is because I wasn't clear enough?

Gamebird
2005-11-01, 04:34 PM
Yeah, that would be it for me. I didn't understand what you really wanted.

What exactly do you consider the "flavor" of the Soulknife to consist of? I mean that seriously (sounds cheesy, or maybe I've just been reading too many online comics lately...). Is it the "having a weapon come out of my mind" thing? How is it different from saying it works exactly like the monk's unarmed strike, except that it creates a material, solid (or semisolid) manifestation of a weapon?

Seerow
2005-11-01, 04:39 PM
Which is pretty much what I wanted. What I imagine being a Mindblade is a glowy energy-blade type deal(Yes I know how entirely kidlike that sounded, but that's what the class screamed to me when I first saw it). And while you COULD get a similar effect, the idea of being able to concentrate your own mental power onto a single spot to create something that exists is a prospect that interests me.

Having something like THAT is really what I'm thinking of.

Maybe to further restrict it, have a Prerequisite of 13/17/19 Wisdom(Maybe intelligence? But this seems more of a Willpowr/Wisdom thing) for each feat respectively? That way, on a point buy if they want that exotic weapon they're giving up more, and on a regular session, you're either rolling phenomenally or giving your best stat up to Wisdom.

This could make it appeal more to a Paladin or Cleric than a Fighter, and even a Wizard could deal with 13 Wisdom for a mental staff or something similar.

coredump
2005-11-02, 12:27 AM
Did you completely miss everything I've said? I specified melee weapon, so no arrows. Just so you know, you are coming across in a less than favorable light. Since you came here asking for something, you could probably be a bit less terse.

*notices that Rigeld pointed this out for him already* thank you. Now notice how much nicer Rigeld was about it.


No, I asked specifically for suggestions on how to improve the soulknife class, not to weaken the feats. No, that may be what you intended to do. But that is *not* what you posted originally. I understand that it is not easy having people blast your ideas, but if that many people see a problem with it, maybe there really is a problem.


Tell me, what situations would come up where a Soul Weapon would be that much extra of a benefit compared to a normal weapon and I'd understand your argument.
Can't be sundered
Much harder to steal
Not worth stealing
works in anti-magic field
easily concealed, regardless of size
Can focus be dispelled?
Can't be disarmed
Can't be removed




And the Soulknife consistently improves his Mindblade as he gains levels. A Fighter with a Soul Weapon isn't going to have a stronger weapon than a Soulknife if you're going by Wealth-By-Level guidelines.Check those guidelines again.


Well, what if I want to have a Soul Weapon, but don't want it to be a sword? So allow the Soulknife to have different weapons, big deal. That does not constitute a reason to let these feats be open to anyone.
What if I want to have a Soul Weapon but don't want to stay in one class permanently to keep my weapon up to par with other characters.What if I want to be a monk, or druid, or etc. and want to keep up my class abilities....



Which is why I had wanted to allow for the focus to stack with the Soulknife's Mindblade, but that was shot down as being too broken. way too broken.


Also, don't forget that the Soulknife also gets enhancements, so technically his Soulknife would be considered a +4 (+2 Mindblade +2 Enhancement).

At 11th level the Fighter has 21,000 gold to play with. A +4 weapon costs 32,000 GP. So no, the Fighter can't really compete with the power, he just gets a better choice in where he allocates it.Wealth guidelines for 11th level is between 66K and 88K. easily enough to stay ahead of the soulkniife. (but, without the flexibility)


And actually, if you go by the normal restriction of "no more than half your money on one item" said Fighter can't get beyond a +2 bonus.That is 'the normal restriction', it is an optional rule for starting characters at higher levels.


It gives them a nice edge early on (Until about level 8), also you can always have the Psychic Strike charged, and at least have that extra damage for your first hit. yep, but the fighter is usine weap spec to get 2pts per hit, and getting multiple attacks earlier, and hitting more often.



I know you consider me an idiot,No, I do not. I do think you are rude, but that is different.


If I wanted them as Fighter Bonus Feats, Id have specified that in my descriptions.Case in point.



You say this is a fighter at 6th level? Let's assume he's human then...You are missing the point on this. I was comparing the fighter with the SoulKnife, showing that with your feats, the fighter makes as good a soul knife, as the soulknife, and in many ways will be better. The comparison to another fighter is a different concept.


1st(Human)-Wild Talent
1st(Fighter)-Weapon Focus (soul weapon)
1st(General)-Soul Weapon (long spear)
2nd(Fighter)-open slot
3rd(General)-open slot
4th(Fighter)- Weap spec (soul weapon)
6th(General)- Free Draw
6th(Fighter)-Martial Soul Weapon(Greatsword)There are two open slots, which *could* be used for throwing and Speed, but the fighter has the *added* bonus of not having to. Plus, he is already ahead by having Weap Spec.

As I said, he is better at being the Soulknife, than the soulknife is.


Though, not allowing for Fighters to take it as a bonus feat, by level 6 really denies them only Freedraw by about 3 levels using the above. Yeah, but at that point, ignore the martial focus until 9th, and go with a morningstar. Still be more effective than a soulknife.


weap spec BAB-This is true, no getting around that And that is a pretty big deal.

Reach Weapon-Does Melee include reach? If so, I should specify the intention was not to Or at least not something like a spiked chain o.0. If not, what?Your question doesn't quite make sense. But the Longspear has reach.

Better Martial Weapon-Im not sure on this one. Sure being able to get a Greatsword is nice, but Bastard Sword isn't half bad. Certainly not a dissadvantage.It may not be a big disadvantage, but it *is* a disadvantage. The fighter gets a better mindblade than the soulknife.

Two Attacks Per Round-Can't the Soulknife get this? =\ Sure, it just takes him 33% longer.

Proficient in...-What other weapon do you really want?Depends. But the soulblade weilding fighter can also use a longbow, or pick up a polearm, or whatever.

Personally, I never use heavy armor regardless, so I can't speak for heavy armor. But the Soulknife's extra money being able to funnel into a better make of armor should make up for that.Well, while the soulknife is using his *extra* money to get magical armor, the fighter is just putting on half-plate and still gets a better armor cllass.


So yes, there's still advantages, but not as great as you point out. I think it balances with the disadvantages.The soulblade fighter gets more attacks, better to hits, more feats, same AC, does more damage, has more options.
The Soulknife is better at throwing his weapon, but only *once* per round



Look, if you really *only* want the flavor, than don't base it on the mindblade, base it on a real sword.

Soul blade
req Wild Talent +3 BAB
benefit: May use a 'soul focus' to summon forth a 'soul blade' the soul focus must be held in the hand while the soul blade is weilded.
The soul blade can be sundered, If sundered, it is a full round action to get it reformed. The souil focus can be sundered, but is at a -4 due to its size.
The soul focus costs 330 gp, and bestows a +1 attack on the soul blade. The focus can be enchanted in the same fashion as a weapon.
A soul focus can only draw forth a single type of weapon, and it is weilded as a normal weapon of that type. (proficiiencies, feats, etc.)



There, that gives you a feat, which will give you the 'flavor' you want, with some benefits for the weilder, without stealing the thunder of the soulknife. You could also make a "Throw" feat.

coredump
2005-11-02, 12:42 AM
The comment you quoted and responded to, where I was asking for suggestions, was me asking for suggestions on how to helpthe Soulknife.Which may be, and I accept that it was your intention, but to later say that you "specifically' asked only for advice on the Soulknife would not be factual. But lets move on...


And lets say your character does get stripped naked in the field. That means he has lost his focus item, if any.But what about times when he is stripped of weapons, but not stripped naked?


At first level, yes, this character will have a distinct advantage.
By the time the party has magical weapons? Probably not.Really? No weapon, or having a non-magical greatsword that will allow you weap spec/weap focus/power attack/etc to work? even at 10 level that is a big advantage.


Compare it to Improved Unarmed Strike. Any simple weapon can do, at max, 1d6 damage.1d8 damage on a number of them.
A character with Improved Unarmed Strike matches that,How does 1d3 match 1d8?? Having IUS does not make you a monk.

but a null psionic/magic field almost always nullifies the weapon at this level(You have what, a +2 Will at best? As a Fighter +0?) How many anti magic fields do you come across at 2nd level? It is at 10th level when it becomes impressive.
While the Improved Unarmed Strike character gets his attacks in regardless.Or you pull out a dagger and do *more* damage than the IUS


And no, I wasn't proposing these feats to erradicate the Soulknife,I believe you, that was not your intent, but it would be the result. You take 80% of the goodness, and give it to the fighter for a few feats.

I have posted my suggestion about how to provide the flavor, without overpowering, or overshadowing. Hopefully it meets your needs.


I guess the reason I've gotten no suggestions on how to do this is because I wasn't clear enough?Partly that, and partly because folks thought the feats were too powerful.

Douglas
2005-11-02, 02:40 AM
Why require Wild Talent specifically? A power point reserve from any source whatsoever should be sufficient, Wild Talent is just the only way to get it without racial power points or a level in a psionic class.

idksocrates
2005-11-03, 12:49 AM
I vote for Coredump's feat!

One idea to increase the SoulKnife's power is to give a new ability:
Quickened Psychic strike: 1/day, the soulknife can charge his blade with psychic strike as a free action. What level it would be activated, and what level the number of times per day it increases is subject to debate.

Also note that the SoulKnife is limited by damage. A person could fluff the class to say that the weapon he is using (although mechanically similar to a shortsword) actually looks like a spear or a mace, Which is what I was suggesting earlier.