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Jotoco
2005-08-09, 10:23 PM
I originally posted this in nifty's, but I wanted it here too.
I made new build for bards and fighters, and I think they are well balanced but missing something... You know? Well, it's going be a whole big post, so fit your seat belt.

Fighter
Insert here the PHB text of prereqs, skills, die and class features, but add the written bellow.

The whole thing of giving more feats was pushing towards a prestige class getting machine, and I took it off completelly, and will add the following:
At 4 level and every 4 levels thereafter a fighter may choose to gain one of the abilities listed below:

Sneakness:
Gain +1d6 sneak attack dye, just like a rogue do.

Precise quickness:
A fighter's second and later attacks have only a -4 penalty over the first, instead of -5, and he does not gain attacks earlier. That is, a fighter of 13 level would have BAB of 13/9/5, but a 5 level fighter would only have one attack at 5. [For a multi-class exemplo see replies below]

Full concentration:
A fighter gains an additional +1 to hit and damage for every 6 levels of fighter class. If he chooses to fight defensively this bonus goes to AC instead.

Extensive trainning:
A fighter may spend a bonus feat (either odd or even numbered) and choose 2 skills to turn into class-skills. Additionally he gains +1 unnamed bonus to these checks.

Off-hand strengh:
Pre-reqs: 6 level 17 str
A fighter with that feat add his full str bonus to off hand melee attacks.

Shield as weapon:
Pre-reqs: Improved shield bash
A fighter with that feat may use his shield as a light off-hand weapon, gainning an extra attack. Feats like two-weapon fighting and others work with this feat.

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Bard

The whole idea of dividing the bard in less spealized sub-classes was taken from Kkat(In Nifty's forum). And one could say that it really comes from the 2nd ed. when the skald used to kick-ass in Baldurs Gate 2.[on a side note I defeated the game with a skald only, and no one else in the party.]
Second I really wanted to make a main-class bard too, one that is not speciallist in any of the 3 sub-classes I created. And with that I will start.

These different bards must be choosen when the player attains 1 level in bard. All abilities remain the same, unless noted.


MAIN Bard

That is the traditional jack of all trades you already know, tweaked a bit to be more playable. I will list only things that got changed, not the ones that haven't.

Ambidextruous mind:
A Bard of 2 level may concentrate in two tasks at once by using this hability. She may do full-attacks while starting singing, play a music and use a spell or use two songs at once.(not any other combination of actions, just those listed).

Jack of all trades:
At 3 level a bard may use a skill that normally wouldn't allow untrained checks untrained. All but knoledge checks are available here.

Mimic:
A Bard of 6 level or higher can mimic other classes supernatural or extraordinary abilities. This may only be used to mimic the core classes abilities, and only if the class gets this hability at least at one level earlier than the bard. Bards CAN NOT have any druid, paladin or monk special habilities (though they can acess then if other class can). They CAN NOT have animal companion, gain any immunity (to poison or whatever), CAN NOT gain spell resistance, damage reduction, bonus AC or extra attacks. With this a bard can either Rage or have a favored enemy, or even gain bonus feats or sneak attack die. A Bard may choose one hability to learn this way in the 6 level and every 6 levels after(12, 1Cool. But he gains ONE level of the ability, like +1d6 sneak attack, not the whole sneak attack tree.



Music:

The BAB of a bard of music is just 1/2 for level. Additionally, it only earns 4 + mod int skills per level. The musician bard suffers the penalties from armor (also of arcane failure) for using armors that are not of skin or leather [can't use scale armors without penalties ].


Ambidextruous mind:
A Bard of 2 level may concentrate in two tasks at once by using this hability. She may do full-attacks while starting singing, play a music and use a spell or use two songs at once.(not any other combination of actions, just those listed).

Ventriloquism:
A bard of the way of music can use 1 use of bardic music "to camouflage" its voice, making it to seem that it comes of another place at most distant 3m(10ft) per bard level. During the use of this ability the bard does not need to move its mouth. The user can perceive that the sound is false making a Listen check against a performance roll of the bard.

Music of the tragedy:
At 5 level a bard of music can use boost musics to diminish the capacity of fighting of the opponents just like it increases the ability of his allies. Every enemy affected may Will save for half. A music changed in that way will not help allies, just hamper enemies.

Superior musical talent:
The bard of music has access to musics earlier. It has access to musics 2 levels and 2 points of performance before the other bards.

Extra music:
In the third level the bard gains its mod of charisma, if positive, to its amount of bardic musics per day. From the 4th level on, a bard of music earns, beyond the normal uses of music, 50% its level in music uses.

Reverberation:
From the fifth level, a bard of music can give the boosts of two musics at the same time, or will be able to improve the effect of only one music in 50% if he wants to use the same music twice, this bonus aply to numbered bonuses and add half of the level of bard to the DC, consuming 2 uses of the ability for the extra song (3 uses in total). During the use of this ability the bard cannot attack, simply can move itself while he keeps its concentration.

Fading:
A music played by a bard of the music of 6 level or more lasts in the mind of who hears it, he consumes 2 uses of his bardic music if playing with fading. In this way, all musics that a bard plays lasts "level of bard/3" more turns than normal [2 in 6, 3 in 9... ]. Note that if the bard start to playing another music during this period musics won't stack, and the new annuls the one that still is in fading.

Absolute silence:
A bard of tenth level effectively silence all the sounds in a ray of 3m(10ft) * level of the bard using 3 uses of bardic music. Verbal communication becomes impossible, as well as sonic spells or spells with verbal components. This effect lasts for a numer of turns equal to bard level. This ability consumes 4 uses of bardic music and can only be used once every hour.

Music is magic:
A bard of 11 level can transform into music almost any magic that it already knows and can use. It spends a number of bardic music uses of equal the level of the spell and loses one slot of that level and can duplicate its effect, except that it lasts while the bard concentrate, as any another musicand affect all who hears. A bard only can imitate spells that do not cause nor cure damages, nor creates visual effects. The spell cast in this way affects all the creatures who hear it as the description[only enemys, allies or both], and can be made 1 time per day on 12 level, 2 on 14, 3 on 18 and 4 of 20. Fading does not function with this ability, nor does reverberation.

Celerity Song:
In 15 level a bard of music gains this ability. This Music gives to the bard and allies who will be able to hear an extra standard action. This action can be used normally, just as if hasted. This effect is not stackable with other spells or similar effects, and needs the spendure of 5 uses of bardic music.




Magic:

The Bonus base of attack of a bard of music is just 1/2 for level as a mage. Additionally, it only earns 4 + mod int skills per level and can't wear armor other than leather or fur without arcane failure chances. (The feat battle caster from Comp. Arcane ups this to light armor.)


Lyric Arcana:
A bard of the magic can launch spells while he plays a musical instrument. He can make normal use of bardic music during the use of the spells if he does not need the voice for such. During music the gestual components of the spell are effectively ignored, except where the spell have complex gestual components, that are listed in the description of the spell. He may even start a song in the same round he casts.

Magician of legends:
The bard is specialist in hearing everything and learning everything, therefore a bard specialized in magics learns spells of sorcerers from only hearing them. A bard of the magic can learn new spells of the sorcerer table and conjure them in the same spell level of a sorcerer, except spells that do not depend on verbal components wich he can't use. For each three levels beginning at third it gains level of bard/2 in spell levels that it can choose to learn(round down). For example, a bard when reaching 9 level could choose to learn 4 levels of spell. That He could use to buy 2 spells of seccond level, or 1 third and another first, even 4 first level spell as he wishes. This choice must immediately be made after attaining a level. This ability does not allow the bard to buy stronger spells than the ones it can already use(But a bard can buy spells of seventh level in 18 level, to use with the below ability).

Extra Magics:
Beyond the spells that a bard can learn you add the following: everytime that a bard is able to use 2 spells per day of its higher level spells, he is able to use 0 spells of next level [and also learns spells of this level], what also means that it will be able to use them if he have charisma enough to have a bonus spell in this level, and when listed 0 in the table of the bard he, in fact, have 1. This ability gives to the bard the chance to conjure spells of seventh level in 18 level if it will have charisma enough to obtain a bonus spell in this level, and gives 2 seventh level spell per day in the level 20).

Level 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1 2 0 - - - - - -
2 3 1 - - - - - -
3 3 1 - - - - - -
4 3 2 0 - - - - -
5 3 3 1 - - - - -
6 3 3 2 0 - - - -
7 3 3 2 1 - - - -
8 3 3 3 1 - - - -
9 3 3 3 2 0 - - -
10 3 3 3 2 1 - - -
11 3 3 3 3 1 - - -
12 3 3 3 3 2 0 - -
13 3 3 3 3 2 1 - -
14 4 3 3 3 3 1 - -
15 4 4 3 3 3 2 0 -
16 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 -
17 4 4 4 4 3 3 1 -
18 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 0
19 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 1
20 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 2


Music is magic:
From the sixth level and on a bard of the magic can conjure more spells than normally, for this spending the equivalent to the level of the spell that it wants to conjure in number of uses of bardic music until the limit of uses of bardic music. 0 level spells can't be converted this way.

Extra music:
In the eighth level the bard gains its mod of charisma, if positive, to its amount of bardic musics per day.






Combat:

The combat bard have a good fortitude save and poor will, instead.They need 2 points more in performance than the normal bard to have access to musics, and only earns 4 + int mod points of skill per level.

Warlike Singer:
A bard of the way of the combat will be able to use the ability of bardic music while in total attack without penalties. Even starting another song while full attacking. But for that he needs success in a DC 5 + minimum perform skill for the song, concentration check, or fail. A botch does not make it any worst.

Resistance:
A combat bard gains +1 HP per HD.

Gracious Defense:
From the 4th level and on a bard is so gracious in combat that it becomes more difficult to hit him, as much for beauty as for the precision of its movements. [ the bard adds its charisma modifier to its AC, if positive ].

Will of legends:
From the fifth level and on a bard adds its cha modifier to the will saves if this is greater than his wisdom, instead of wisdom.

Evasion:
In the sixth level a combat bard acquire the ability evasion, as a rogue.

Gracious attack:
In the 8 level, a combat bard can spend 1 use of bardic music to add its mod of cha (without item boosts) + bard level/4 to its attack and damage for 1 attack for each 4 levels in bard. This ability can be activated as a free action, and can be used 1 + cha mod times per day.

Improved Evasion:
In 10 level a combat bard gains the ability of improved evasion, as a rogue.

Resonance:
In the 12 level, a bard can use 3 uses of bardic music once per day to make a touch attack on an object or armor of metal, rock or similar dense material. The armor then will have to make a fortitude save of DC 10 + bard level/2 + mod of cha to halve the 1d4 + cha mod per Bard level of sonic damage. The use of this ability increases to 2 times in 16 and 3 times in 20 level.

Well, post your opinions here and please, let me find some leaks in the build and everything. I don't want them to be cheese, just to be good and playable.
And also, I think the fighter is still not worth it the way it is now, just add some ideas, please.

Thanks everybody

Norhg
2005-08-09, 10:48 PM
My players like the fighter variant but think the feat restriction odd.

The Bard is just over the top for them... majorly overpowered.
Also, why is this needed?

Warlike Singer:
A bard of the way of the combat will be able to use the ability of bardic music while in total attack without penalties. It does not need to spend a movement action, but still need to make a concentration check to use music each turn in combat of DC 10 + minimum skill point needed to have this music each round in total attack. If he fails he lose the song but nothing worse happens, even in a critical failure.
Bards can already use most of their musics in combat at will... Except from Fascinate, Suggestion and Song of Freedom and other "non-combat" songs.

Sincerly, the Bard needs no boost. Not aside from what the splatbooks have given it anyway...

Jotoco
2005-08-09, 11:18 PM
I feared the bard would be overpowered. But I had such a hard time thinking over new ideas for abilities and such that I couldn't take anything out.
I would like you to point to me why you think it's overpowered and possibly offer an idea of how I could make it less overpowered.

I know at least the musician bard is WAY overpowered. It's the ultimate support machine, but I find those abilities so cool.

The warrior bard would still suffer for the low BAB and few weapon proficiencys. Though with magic they can compensate for that fact a little (very little since most bardic musics are useless, save for some odd uses people invent).

The magician should be VERY fun to play. Not having powerful spells, but selecting from a wide range of spells and being able to cast lots of low level spells should be nice.

The normal bard is very good in my opinion, well balanced for most things. And still a jack of all trade, master of none. And a "can do everything" little character.

Oh, and about the feat restriction, I find it would be nive to having something different from another feat, and to add some flavor to the fighter, it's just to... fighter.

Thanks for the review

Maxis_IronForge
2005-08-09, 11:19 PM
I don't really see the point of re-writing existing classes. either you wish to play D&D, or you don't. Personally I play other games so I'm a "don't".

In Any case, wouldn't it be simpler to either have a "stealth warrior" prestige class (which probably already exists) or to take a few levels of rogue than to give fighters an optional sneak attack bonus?

jdrich
2005-08-09, 11:36 PM
The only variant a bard needs is a 2nd ed style caster. I think the who cha-related casting thing is stupider than stupid anyway, so I made a bard variant that learns spells just as a wizard (And an AD&D bard) would.

Bards, for thier purpose, are very powerful.

I just give my fighters a feat at every level, instead of 3/4 levels. I think this makes them a bit stronger, considering homebrew feats.

Jotoco
2005-08-09, 11:44 PM
The point in making all these modifications is to at least one of 2 things.
1 - Make all classes appear as the same in power wheighting everything.
2 - Give the player more options on what to be, and ho to be.

Considering those two things I wanted to build some new things that aren't all the way distant from the original builds and classes to be called another thing, but that are more balanced and open more options for choices and fun.

Caelestion
2005-08-10, 05:08 AM
Well, if you iron out all the fighter's bonus and character feats (not counting 1st or human), the only time a regular fighter doesn't get a feat is 7th, 13th and 19th. Now you're proposing to give them ten more??
I never liked bards, so I'm not going to comment on that section.

Cael.

Tehnar
2005-08-10, 08:46 AM
The problem with fighters is that while they are a great class to multiclass to or from, great at lower levels they start losing their edge later on. And all the feats in the world dont help that. Besides fighters need really good atributes to use most of the cool feats (dex 13+, int 13+, and of course str and con).

Since I dont use variant classes in my campaigns (scout, warlock etc) I gave fighters the following benefits:

- tumble and balance are class skills
- a character can use his BAB gained from the fighter class to add to his sense motive checks to determine HD of a creature

not much, but it gives fighters more freedom and versatility later on.

I really like Jotoco's idea about having additional attacks at -4, however implementing that idea when multiclassing gets a little tricky, ie how many attacks and at what BAB would a fighter 8/ cleric 8 have using that rule?

Jotoco
2005-08-10, 12:32 PM
Just use the higher attack to determine number of attacks.
Like, in the fighter/cleric:
Let's split it up.
Fighter BAB = 8/4
The fighters BAB only get him one new attack and that is at -4. Ok, now we add the higher cleric BAB the "6" to both of then it turns 14/10. But the a new attack is granted in 12 level. So, it gets a new attack, but since it doesn't come from the fighter class it is at -5, so it would be:
Multiclassed Fighter 8/Cleric8 => BAB =14/10/5
Kind of complicated, and it's still a nice bonus in the last attack.

Tehnar
2005-08-10, 06:44 PM
Why not make it a bit simpler:

at lvl 13 fighter give him an feat (or an ability to take a feat) that gives attacks at -4 (maximum of 4 attacks per rnd)

and at lvl 17 same but at -3 (still the maximum of 4 attacks per rnd)

I think its a nice change and keeps someone playing a straight fighter instead of multiclassing to something else.

Jotoco
2005-10-28, 01:27 PM
Since I changed a whole lot of things I decided to up this post.

And because I put a link to it in the crazy bard concepts...

EDIT:

ccelizic, thanks for the advices, made more changes.

Fading is just an "add on" and two performs or perform + magic frees up one neat instrument, so it's just as good, IMO.

ccelizic
2005-10-28, 06:29 PM
There are PRC's that can fill the various bard niches though. If I want a fighter type bard I'd take a warchanter from complete warrior. If I want a bard that focuses on magic even gaining 9 levels of spells and mixing bardic magic with sorc/wiz then I'd go for the Subline Chord PRC. If I want a bard who's intense with the music then seeker of the song is my man. If I want a bard who subtly bends people to his will and is intense with social skills, I'd go with virtouso.

Even with all those PRC's avaliable, I like the good old straight bard, those PRC's cut into fun high end bard stuff like "Inspire courage +4" and "inspire heroics". inspire heroics ROCKS.

Jotoco
2005-10-29, 01:01 AM
Thanks for sharing your superior bard knowledge.

Please, share with me wich book have each bard you mentioned.

I know virtuoso from song and silence, what about the others?

Umael
2005-10-29, 05:04 PM
What makes a character class useful at high and low levels is the ability to shine in certain situations. In the case of the fighter, the class uses feats to cover a wide range of situations. Given that the fighter only is missing a feat on 5th, 7th, 11th*, 13th, & 19th, they have plenty of feats to cover a wide range of situations.

11th is still a nice level though, because the fighter gains an additional attack per round.

The trouble with fighter as a core class is that there really is not enough feats in the feat tree option.

Core tree feats include:
Snatch Arrows, requires Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Precise Shot, requires Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Manyshort, requires Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Great Cleave, requires Power Attack, Cleave
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, requires Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Spring Attack, requires Dodge, Mobility
Spirited Charge, requires Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack

one of the best feats they added in 3.5,

Greater Weapon Specialization, requires Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus

and my favorite,

Whirlwind Attack, requires Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

Now most of these feats require a minimum in at least one stat, possibly a minimum base attack bonus, but let's ignore that for now. After all, what sets a fighter apart from a paladin, barbarian, or ranger are all those feats. Admittedly, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization are fighter only feats, but the rest of the feats do not have anything about them that ear-marks them for the fighter class only. A human masquerading as a half-elf paladin could seem like a lawful good tank fighter easily enough, especially at lower levels, and at 1st level, would be slightly better as a warrior than the half-elf fighter (thanks to smite evil 1/day).

By fourth level, the fighter has five feats, six if the fighter is human. This would be enough to purchase Whirlwind Attack, except the fighter needs to purchase Spring Attack at the same time:

1st level - get Dodge
1st fighter - get Mobility
2nd fighter - get Combat Expertise
3rd level - get another feat, but because Spring Attack requires +4 BAB and a 3rd level fighter has only +3, the fighter cannot pick Spring Attack until next level. This delays the purchase of Whirlwind by two levels.

By sixth level, the fighter can have Whirlwind Attack, plus one extra feat (two if human). Unfortunately, by sixth level, a human warrior can have Spring Attack. That means by ninth level, a human warrior can be using Whirlwind Attack.

This gives the fighter three levels to shine with a feat no one else can have yet.

Unless someone else takes one level in fighter.

Going back to the above example, a human warrior (barbarian, paladin, ranger, etc.) can purchase Whirlwind Attack at the same time as the fighter by dabbling in the fighter class. While this does limit their progress in whichever warrior class they have, they do keep mostly abreast of the pure fighter.

But this gets even worse. While most core classes would not want Whirlwind Attack, save the warrior classes, there is always the possibility for a warrior-hybrid. With automatic Armor Proficiency (Heavy), the cleric makes a good warrior-hybrid character (although it does come with the sacrifice of spellcasting might). With a high Dexterity likely granting initiative and sneak-attack devastating, the warrior-rogue can be horrideous. A human cleric 5/fighter 1 or human rogue 5/fighter 1 would have a total of BAB +4 and gain two extra feats on gaining sixth level, meaning that he or she can have Whirlwind Attack at the same time the pure fighter first gained it.

Now the pure fighter does have more hit points on the average and will have a better BAB than one of the hybrids, but given that the fighter shines in combat because of his or her feats, having a hybrid character with the same special feat cheapens the possibility.

The fighter can continue to pick up feats, allowing for more options. Great Cleave + Whirlwind Attack is a nice combo, and adding Improved Critical makes it even better. But some feats, like Weapon Finesse, do not work so well with these combos because they move in a different direction. After all, the Cleave tree depends on a good Strength score, the higher the better, but if you have your Dex 13 & Int 13, that is all you need to get your Whirlwind Attack, which functions just as well with Cleave as it does with Weapon Finesse. Given that Weapon Finesse only substitutes your Dex-modifier on your attack rolls, having a high Strength makes this option not as attractive. Worse, while there are feats that make Weapon Finesse more useful, a higher strength than dexterity renders this option useless.

I.e., some feats just are not as useful.

Given that the fighter is a class designed around fighting, it should become even more fearsome at the higher levels. The best way to do this is to deal as much damage to as many opponents in as short a time as possible, while staying alive and capable of repeating the experience multiple times.

Let's break that down, looking at what makes the fighter special only (i.e., using feats, not magical items).

As much damage as possible - Power Attack, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Spirited Charge. Greater Weapon Specialization and Spirited Charge each require three and two additional feats respectively. 9 feats total, but Greater Weapon Specialization requires a minimum of 12 levels in fighter. After 12th level, the core pure fighter cannot get anything to do more damage with feats alone, and worse, the fighter only gets Improved Critical and Greater Weapon Specialization for his or her chosen weapon. If the weapon is particularly nasty, Exotic Weapon Proficiency helps.

To as many opponents as possible - Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, Manyshot, Rapid Reload. Rapid Reload only allows reloading a crossbow quicker and does not work with Manyshot, and neither of them work with Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack. 9 feats later, the fighter can damage as many opponents as possible, although again, Exotic Weapon Proficiency can help. 9 feats is a ninth level human fighter - what are you going to do for the next 11 levels?

(This does not take into account things like the monsters being so big that they take up so much space that the fighter can only take on a few at a time. Luckily, if the fighter is taking on big monsters, this means there is usually few of them around.)

While staying alive - Diehard, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Self-Sufficient, Toughness. With the exception of Armor Proficiency (Heavy), which is a feat the fighter gets just for being that class, none of these are fighter feats. In other words, the fighter gets them just as quickly as everyone else. What the fighter does have to help him or her stay alive is d10 hit points and a high Fortitude Save - handy, but by no means is the fighter wonderfully adapt at staying alive. More to the point, the fighter does not have means to stay alive except through the old adage, "the best defense is a good offense."

Repeating the experience multiple times - this is where the fighter really excels. With the exception of ammunition (bolts, arrows, javelins, etc.), fighters do not have special abilities that are limited in how many times the fighter can use them. Things like Mounted Combat may only be used once per round, but they can be used round after round after round. Spellcasters run out of spells, paladins use up their turn undead and smite evil, barbarians expend their last rage, but fighters keep going. Multiple encounters mean that the fighter has multiple chances to succumb to damage, magical influences, or just bad luck, but as long as the fighter hasn't been knocked to negative hit points, turned to stone, charmed, ability drained, or otherwise thwarted, he or she is just as good to go as before, whereas most of the other classes have a limited usage. Twenty rounds later in the fight from h*ll, the cleric has dropped his last healing spell, the barbarian is too exhausted to fight effectively, the wizard is down to cantrips and her crossbow, the rogue has already used her Defensive Roll, and the monk is expended his Wholeness of Body, but the fighter is just as robust as before.

Unfortunately, if the campaign does not have many combats or if they are notoriously short, the fighter's durability of utility does not get to be noticed.

Solution

As I said, the problem is the lack of feat trees. While a fighter serves a useful role, that role diminishes as the characters level. It is not just enough to add feats, but to add feats which the other characters can also get, just not as quickly as the fighter can. Whirlwind Attack and Greater Weapon Specialization are the best examples of the fighter getting access to feats early enough, and in the case of Whirlwind Attack, the system has problems.

It would be good to expand on these feats in already existing feat trees, either from having approved canon sources, or well-researched splat books, or carefully-considered house rules.

For example, Whirlwind Attack sacrifices the fighter's ability to attack a single opponent with all of his or her attacks to make an attack on everyone in range once. Since Whirlwind Attack cannot be used until sixth level, this means a minimum sacrifice of one attack on one particular target (i.e., the fighter can choose to attack the same target at +6/+1, or can choose to attack everyone within range at +6).

So what about an Improved Whirlwind Attack? Like the Whirlwind Attack, it should require a few extra feats, but if a fighter could only get it by 11th level, but it allowed two attacks (+11/+6) on everyone in range, wouldn't that be worthwhile? Or a Greater Whirlwind Attack that required BAB +16, but allowed three attacks on everyone in range (+16/11/6)? Maybe these feats would work, maybe not, but it adds an element of usefulness back to the fighters at higher level. At 12th level, a fighter has 12 feats (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, F1, F2, F4, F6, F8, F10, F12), so maybe the feat can wait until then (possibly, like Spring Attack, it requires another feat that requires BAB +12 at the same time). Using that progression, maybe Greater Whirlwind Attack couldn't become available until BAB +18?

Would Improved Whirlwind be that horrible of a thing for a fighter to have? Maybe not. At 12th level, there are some pretty hideous things out there that a wizard can do, and by 12th level, the fighter is definitely starting to taper off.

Let's look at the other feat tree, Weapon Focus.
Weapon Focus, BAB +1
Weapon Specialization, requires Weapon Focus, Fighter 4th level
Greater Weapon Focus, requires Weapon Focus, Fighter 8th level
Greater Weapon Specialization, requires Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Fighter 12th level.

What about renaming the current Greater into Improved, then making the following feat tree?
Weapon Focus, BAB +1
Weapon Specialization, requires Weapon Focus, Fighter 4th level
Improved Weapon Focus, requires Weapon Focus, Fighter 8th level
Improved Weapon Specialization, requires Improved Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Fighter 12th level.
Greater Weapon Focus, requires Weapon Focus, Improved Weapon focus, Fighter 16th level
Greater Weapon Specialization, requires Weapon Focus, Improved Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Specialization, Fighter 20th level.

Like Weapon Focus and the old Greater Weapon Focus, the new Greater Weapon Focus would add a stacking +1 attack with the weapon, giving a total +3 to hit with a certain weapon. Similarly, the new Greater Weapon Specialization would add a stacking +2 damage with the weapon, giving a total +6 to damage with a certain weapon.

Unbalanced? Possibly, but I believe not. Has the fighter class been changed? No, just the feats available.

Thoughts?

ccelizic
2005-10-29, 06:45 PM
Virtuoso is in an updated more useful form is in complete adventurer.

Sublime Chord is in complete arcane.

Seeker of the Song is in Complete arcane as well.

Complete warrior has warsinger.

I just found a religious PRC that stacks it's levels with bard levels for determining how many times a day it can use special abilities, "The Evangelist" They require Perform (oratory) alone, so not really for those musical bards so much as those speech giving bards.

So that's at least 1 bar PRC in every single "Complete" book.

Jotoco
2005-10-31, 03:47 PM
Umael, I think the problem with the fighter is that rely SOLELY on feats... To rely entirely in just one thing must not be good.

The fighter needs his feats a lot, and there aren't enough of then. But at the same time, he just doesn't have any other means to help himself or the party...

I made those new abilities up there. They could be easily converted to feats, but they would not be as special and would take up vital feats. Those are feats that a lot of fighters would like to have, but at the same time, if they got those feats they would fall back in other kinds of feats.

I like your idea, and have used then myself. And if I'm not mystaken, those feats already exist, just don't know where they are.

Your ideas are fine, but if you test it, even with added feats, the fighter will stay lag behind other classes, specially PrC.

That's where new abilities come. They aren't enough to make the fighter over-powered, but are strong enough to make some difference.

MrNexx
2005-10-31, 04:17 PM
Umael, I think the problem with the fighter is that rely SOLELY on feats... To rely entirely in just one thing must not be good.


Sorcerers rely entirely on spells, and they seem to do ok... but I know what you mean. And, in fact, that's a good comparison.

A fighter has far fewer feat slots than a sorcerer has spell slots... heck, he even has fewer than a bard. Furthermore, unlike either of those, once he picks one, he's completely stuck with it. No going back. And, to make it even worse, he's got fewer choices, with more restrictions on his choices.

This isn't to say that fighters suck; they're an essential part of any team. But they've got some serious need for choice, or they become "What I took to qualify for my prestige class", instead of a viable class, themselves.

Jotoco
2005-10-31, 05:39 PM
You have translated my mind, You know?

I always though (and most people too) that fighter is just a nice class to push you faster towards your PrC...

The amount of feats are just for munchkinism.

What I'm trying to do is to make the fighter a CLASS, not a LADDER that you need to climb in order to get your PrC that much faster.

And I don't know how my remake works it... I haven't played for a couple months and it has never been tested.

MrNexx
2005-10-31, 07:40 PM
The problem is, IMO, is that moreso than any other class, the fighter lacks distinguishing characteristics. Even since the beginning of D&D, every class has fought; fighters just did it better.

There aren't too many ways around it, really. Every class fights; without placing unexplanable restrictions on what feats different classes can take (aside from "It's a class feature of fighters", can anyone give me a good reason why a paladin, ranger, or barbarian is incapable of taking Weapon Specialization), fighters become "the feat-fighter-guys". That leaves really only a couple options for making fighters unique.

1) Develop fighters as having special class abilities. Dark Sun (2nd edition) did this. Fighters developed the ability to command units in combat and teach people weapon proficiencies. At high levels, they gained followers who were counted not in men, but in units. Perhaps a fighter has a higher leadership score when his followers have 1 level or more in fighter or warrior. Or they can teach people weapons they have Weapon Focus in at the cost of X amount of experience. This narrows the fighter a little, but it makes him useful for certain character types.

2) Gynormous feat trees that are insanely useful at the end, but that only fighters can really reach the end of. Sure, the Weapon Specialization tree is great, but what about a tree which allowed you to apply the bonus from iterative Weapon Focus feats to your BAB for increasing your number of extra attacks? Or one that let you switch the damage type your weapon inflicted without taking a penalty? Feats that are cursedly useful to someone who's good with weapons (especially good with one weapon), but people with other options are going to leave alone. An option to change feats (especially ones that focus on a single weapon... ever become a bastard sword specialist, only to find a killer greatsword?), like sorcerers can change spells, would come in handy, too.

Jotoco
2005-10-31, 08:21 PM
New ability fighter specific:

Adaptation
If a fighter gain more than half of one of his levels experience fighting with a weapon other than his favourite weapon (the one he has all the feats attached to), he can change all of his feats to the new weapon, without any penaltys. But he loses the old bonuses.

Umael
2005-10-31, 10:24 PM
As I see it, there are four possibilities for the fighters.

1) Keep everything the same. The Wizards made the fighter that way for a reason, and so everyone knows about the fighter that way. Meddling causes more harm than good. Most likely, this will limit the fighter to a support class for character concept, rather than a main character class (i.e., it is usually a good idea to pick up a level or two in fighter, but not all 20).

2) Develop feats. Since the fighter's main ability is the number of combat-related feats he or she gets, make sure the feats are good ones. Lots of options, lots of development as the bonuses from various feats stack up into a mighty war machine. As long as everyone can access the same list of feats and agree to them, the fighter can remain a viable character.

3) Tweak with the character class. The only thing special about the fighter is the number of feats obtained, and with the exception of Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization, every single feat that the fighter can obtain can be purchased by a non-fighter character. While the tweaks do not neccessarily have to involve things that will become unique to the fighter, giving the fighter unique features would probably be the easiest solution. Otherwise, the fighter overlaps the other characters and is more stealing their thunder than making itself special.

4) Combine options 2) & 3).

Jotoco
2005-11-01, 12:05 AM
I go for the fourth option.

Most will go for 3.

And not to forget that Rich already made some fighter feats in his function page.

I'm in favor of giving then the abilities I already have given then, and include new high-level feats.

Dark
2005-11-01, 02:51 PM
I haven't run into the boring-fighter problem yet, but if I do then I think I'd favor giving them a slight boost to the BAB progression. That way, the other fighterlike classes are really trading in some raw fighting ability for their special abilities, and the fighter gets to shine in that area.

A boosted BAB progression also helps most in the higher levels, and that's where people say that fighters are underpowered.

Maybe an extra +1 every 5th level.

Seerow
2005-11-01, 02:58 PM
And give them -5- attacks per round? (24/19/14/9/4 at level 20)

Dark
2005-11-01, 03:55 PM
Yeah! That'll give all those barbighters and fightarians something to think about.

Cymraegmorgan
2005-11-01, 06:46 PM
In my CS, Altvogge, I removed the barabarian as a class. *The Fighter (http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/altvogge/ccfighter.html) got the d12 HD and the DR.

The Ranger got the Fast Movement.

And the Rage stuff became a chain o' feats.


As for the Bard (http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/altvogge/ccbard.html), I use Resource Points (http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/altvogge/pcaltvogge.html), so their casting is amped up. * I also extended their ability to cast spells to a selection of seventh level spells.
I added calm emotions as a spell-like ability, Runemastery(a rune mechanic I am play-testing), and eliminated the alignment restriction.


I also gave the Fighter the Leadership feat free at sixth level.

MrNexx
2005-11-02, 02:38 AM
The Wizards made the fighter that way for a reason,


My problem with this argument, wherever it occurs, is that the reasons were not simply "To make a balanced game with all of the character classes being equally interesting." That was one of the goals, but another was to preserve a lot of the feeling of the earlier editions, which did result in mechanical changes. As a result, IMO, certain classes did become less flavorful than they could be... the fighter is very bland, statistically, as is the 3.5 half orc, and as was the 3e half-elf and the 3e ranger.

Umael
2005-11-02, 03:01 AM
While I agree with you that the Wizards did fail to balance the fighter class, mostly because they dropped the ball on the feats, the fact remains that fighters in one person's campaign will be very, very similar to fighters in another campaign. By that I mean d10 hit points per level, 2+ skill points per level, Good Fortitude Save, Good BAB, Bonus Feat at 1st, 2nd, and even two levels thereafter, and that's about it.

I think that option #2, adding more feats, is the easiest way to balance (or at least, help balance) the fighter wherever you go.

Not that I am opposed to someone tweaking the fighter class a little...

Cymraegmorgan
2005-11-02, 05:37 AM
...mostly because they dropped the ball on the feats, ...

Do you mean the fighter should get more feats?
Or more specialized feats?

Umael
2005-11-02, 10:54 AM
Do you mean the fighter should get more feats? *
Or more specialized feats?


A 20th-level fighter gets 11 bonus feats just for the class, plus 7 as the character advances, and one more if the fighter is human. No, the number of feats the fighter gets is fine.

The trouble is that the feats a fighter gets are widely available to everyone. There are not enough fighter-only feats (such as Weapon Specialization), and there are not enough feats in a feat tree (see Whirlwind - requires four extra feats). See my long post earlier in this thread for a breakdown of what I mean.

rising_dragon
2005-11-02, 05:02 PM
I aggree with you Umael there just isn't that many high level feat opions avaible to fighters. Also feats tend to lack power that spells or high level special ablilites grant.

Overall with all feats and prestige classes now avaible to bards, they're doing just fine.

Jotoco
2005-11-02, 10:16 PM
And I realized after some researching that almost every new ability I gave to bards have already been given to then in some splat-book...

I'm just compiling all the feats, abilities and spells for my use. :D

Spuddly
2005-11-02, 10:26 PM
Fighter's are far more item dependent than casters.

Just thought I'd point that out.

:)