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Dr._Weird
2005-08-25, 04:23 PM
I've been thinking of converting SC to an RPG for a while now, and I think that if the WW:TA system could be changed to have different abilities and to accomadate more technology and alien stats, it might work. What do you think? I might need help with this fairly large project, so 2 other people are welcome to take a race and start converting it to an RPG form. I'll take Protoss. The units should be in this format: (This is without upgrades)
Name
Build Time
Harvest Minerals Time (Only if unit is a probe, drone, or scv)
Harvest Gas Time (Same rule applies)
Armor
Shield Protection (If Protoss)
Attack (Weapon)
Shields
Health

Ex.
Probe
Approx. 7 seconds build time.
Approx. 5 seconds harvest minerals time.
Approx. 2 seconds harvest gas time.
0 Armor
0 Shield
5 Attack (Particle Beam)
20 Shields
20 Health.

jdrich
2005-08-25, 04:50 PM
Already been licensed and done.

http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6651.html

As far as being done well, you'd have to consider that yourself.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-25, 04:59 PM
Thanks, I'll check it out.

Maxis_IronForge
2005-08-25, 09:46 PM
I bought the boxed set when it was on special for a few bucks. It's Alternity...

Alternity is what you get when TSR decides they want to make a sci-fi version of AD&D 2nd ed, but decides to intentionally make the system as different as possible so people will feel like they're getting more. Thus it is way behind generation wise (D20, for example, as third edition would be third generation. Since Alternity attempted to ignore the developments that lead to 2nd edition D&D it made itself a first generation game. Exalted on the other hand, despite being in it's first editon (I think) has learnt from other games and is thus still third generation)

Probably be better off writing your own D20 adaptation, or using GURPS or WOD or something.

jdrich
2005-08-25, 09:54 PM
It wasn't that bad.

Yes it was. :'(

Dr._Weird
2005-08-25, 10:13 PM
So... anyone up for making a not sucky adaption?

Maxis_IronForge
2005-08-25, 10:18 PM
I'm up for heckling it in order to ensure quality control ;D

other than that I don't have the time :(

what is WW:TA?

Dr._Weird
2005-08-25, 10:44 PM
Werewolf: The Apocalypse.
As said before, I'll take Protoss. Volunteers still needed. And I expect quality heckling! :P

Ragbinder
2005-08-26, 01:36 AM
You can rip the terrans from d20 future, if you wish.

ghostrunner
2005-08-26, 02:00 AM
Is there any sort of source book besides the manuals? Something that lays out the history and description of the setting?

My two cents on the whole Starcraft RPG: drop the focus on the RTS mechanics; they don't fit in an RPG.

I don't think that the classes should break down into marine, firebat, etc. I'd use the d20 Modern base classes to start, and they are the basic infantry units. The difference between a marine and firebat is only the weaponry and armor. And theoretically, anyone can hop into any type of armor and shoot any kind of gun. I don't think it's necessary to cross over the RTS units directly as classes; in fact, I think it would add arbitrary restrictions.
The exception is a Ghost; that should probably be an advanced class that is something of a mix between an infiltrator and a telepath. I forget what the d20 Modern/Future classes are called, but a modified pilot class or classes could work for anyone wishing to hop in a Vulture, Goliath, or Wraith.

StGlebidiah
2005-08-26, 05:14 AM
However, while many Terran units may not be different class progressions per se, most Protoss units definitely would be. Templars as opposed to Zealots, for example. Unless you want to make it so that Protoss PCs of a high enough level gain psychic abilities... but I don't want to imagine the problems with balancing that race if it's handled that way.

Perhaps adapting some of the classes from the Star Wars source books to create the class progressions for Protoss characters?

And I'm just assuming you're not going to allow Zerg PCs.

Ryshan Ynrith
2005-08-26, 11:11 AM
i second the idea of the d20 modern base classes; for most Terrans, the equipment they are issued is the primary difference in ability, at least in each broad type (infantry, mechanized, and air force).

The Protoss would indeed need unique class progressions, and it is interesting to note that they resemble D&D classes very closely; the melee-warrior-type Zealots, the magelike Templar, and the stealthy, efficient Dark Templar. Speaking of which, how would you handle Dark Templar? Normal protoss who have trained in different skills, or a completely seperate race?

In any event, I would love to contribute to this project. SC has always been a favorite of mine.

Sacrath
2005-08-26, 12:18 PM
I agree with classes being the only restriction and not limiting armor/equipment types, take Jim Raynor for example, he has marine, vuluture, and Star Cruiser units. and in one of the terran missions for Brood War marines were able to take over goliaths.

Premier
2005-08-26, 12:29 PM
And that's exactly why I think you should go for a skill-based system for a Starcraft conversion, rather than a class-based one like D&D.

ghostrunner
2005-08-26, 04:05 PM
...in one of the terran missions for Brood War marines were able to take over goliaths.
A few years ago, I was working on a whole campaign based on that concept. I eschewed the whole resource-gathering concept and was just going to give the player control of one person. It was going to be cool, but I couldn't figure out how to do a few things that I wanted and lost interest. Oh well.

That being said, I think a class-based system would work fine. D&D of course doesn't work, but d20 Modern/Future is perfect for it. Your average grunts start out as strong or tough heroes, specialists probably as fast or smart heroes, medics and support units probably as dedicated heroes, and military leaders and diplomats as charismatic heroes. The advanced class system would work fine. Grunts advance into the soldier class, possibly with weapon specializations (to reflect the firebat concept), specialists become Ghosts and pilots and what not, leaders become Generals and Negotiators and stuff like that. I think the d20 system would work great for it.

That's for the terrans, though. As Ryshan_Ynrith mentioned, the Protoss would probably have a class system much more like D&D. I think it would be scaled down power-wise from D&D, but I think that would help presever the flavor of the setting. The whole revolutionary concept behind StarCraft was that you have 3 races to choose from; each is wildly different, but they are nonetheless balanced perfectly. While the standard D&D classes obviously wouldn't work, I think that a Starcraft d20 conversion would optimally weld d20 Modern and D&D together.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-26, 04:18 PM
Actually, I was thinking something like this: Terrans can operate a vehicle if they have enough training in it. Zerg PCs could work in that the PCs could operate an army something like http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=play;action=display;num=1123885985;s tart=0#0
this. The Zerg PCs could be cerebrates or infested Terrans like Kerrigan and Duran.
And the Protoss could roll for how strong they are... um... mentally.

jdrich
2005-08-26, 05:28 PM
Terrans: Terrans would be an easy bit. Your average human. You could have subraces for regional differences. Mar Sara terrans would have bonuses to technology and engineering skills, while those on Korhal might have a bonus to resist radioactive poisoning.

Protoss: The protoss caste system isn't just class-based, but also a set of subraces. Different castes have different colorations, abilities, and understandings. A Dark Templar type template could easily be crafted, based off of a protoss who severs thier psychic link to the kala(h?) via thier head-things.

Zerg: While you probably would be unwise to allow zergling PCs, perhaps instead of having zerg have 'classes' (and in fact, the entire idea of 'classes' seems pretty silly to me, given the lack of advancement in the game), let them mutate better abilities. Have a zerg PC start out as a weak little worm, and let them develop in many different areas. This would require a lot of forethought to prevent munckinism, but I'm sure there would be an ability to have 'sentient' zerg PCs, and non-sentient PCs who simply follow the will of the overmind

Sorry for the lack of depth, but I haven't looked at my starcraft manual in a long, long while.

Also of note:

You might want to try and model an RPG engine off of the Starcraft engine, and create a protoss-like race and a zerg-like race. This will probably keep you from getting harassed by Blizzard about copyright infringement. While they're generally a benvolent company when it comes to game modding, I remember in the past that they have quelled similar third-party mods.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-26, 05:47 PM
How's this: I'll send them an email, give them a link to the topic, and tell them we're not making money off of it. I'm sure they'll be fine.

EDIT: Email has now been sent.

The Glyphstone
2005-08-26, 06:02 PM
You could have a Zerg PC...of course, it'd only be 1 PC (Overmind) - two if you count Kerrigan.

Ooh..oh...idea! A campaign would work out well if all the PC's were Zerg Cerebrates or something, directing their minions and following the questsorders of the DM Overmind.

Premier
2005-08-26, 06:06 PM
How's this: I'll send them an email, give them a link to the topic, and tell them we're not making money off of it. I'm sure they'll be fine.

EDIT: Email has now been sent.

You just ensured a cease-and-desist letter from Blizzard's legal department, you realize that?

jdrich
2005-08-26, 06:30 PM
"Well, if you wouldn't have asked if you could, we would have let you, but now that you've notified us we have to tell you to shut it down."

I can't remember the amount of times I heard that in high school. After a while I learned not to ask. It has helped exceptionally in my work experiences.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-26, 10:22 PM
Crap. I don't think I was thinking too clearly then. Sorry.

Cyclone231
2005-08-26, 11:40 PM
Dark Templars would best be handled as a class that cannot be taken in conjunction with High Templar. By their very nature, Dark Templar cannot be High Templar, and visa versa.

I'm actually working on my own Starcraft RPG, about ten pages long thus far, with the conceptual workings of the Templates worked out. First off, Dragoons are sort of undead Protoss automatons. They're the Protoss equivalent of the reincarnation spell. Difficult, time-taking, and alters them to the basic physical level, but they come back alive. I'm not sure whether a Dragoon retains his psionic powers (like, if he was a Templar). Anyone know?

Then, Archons trade off their High Powers to add ridiculous amounts of damage to their attacks. +1d4 per High Power they had before merging. Total. That means that if two High Templars with three High Powers each merge, they get +6d4 to their attack. It gets ridiculously high after a while.

Dark Archons lose their Dark Powers, but gain new High (I mean, come on, Psi Storm is so Dark Archon) and Dark Archon powers to replace them.

For Infested, it's like that, but optional. They can choose to replace their normal Ghost Psi Powers with Zerg Abilities (like Ensnare, Consume, Plague, Burrow, etc), or they can not.

I think the humans would do better as just a "Okay, you're a human. LA +0. You don't get anything special." Due to the nature of Starcraft, like so many sci-fi worlds, there are just too many "races" to pick from (assuming we create the planet-based subraces) to actually make them all. And there's no other LA +0 race to compare them with. I mean, Protoss are probably Large size, ala Minotaur. They're at least two feet taller than normal humans, which, coupled with their bulky build, puts them in the Large size. Then you take into account their advantages (the Telepathic Link, the Psionic abilities they all share), and they're pretty much playable only in a completely different campaign. A Zealot and a Marine don't join together very easily.

Ryshan Ynrith
2005-08-27, 12:26 AM
Yeah, I think special subraces for different worlds would be a bad idea...too many worlds to do all of them.

Actually, Cyclone, I think a marine and a zealot would join together as easily as a normal D&D party, after they work out their particular differences in ethos. True, they have different abilities (in many cases, vastly), but many of the psychic abilities of the Protoss can be replicated with technology. Radios, exoskeletal power armor, and other such devices give human soldiers many of the same advantages as protoss psionics, and a party of adventerers usually /expects/ a wide range of abilities in its members.

However, it is true that the protoss would most likely have a level adjustment; they are meant to be individually superior to humans. Theoretically, a protoss couldstart with certain abilities that differ from a human but are on approximately the same scale, and have their psionic abilities be gained by class levels; this would reflect the differences in abilities between, for example, a zealot with swift legs and psionic blades and a High Templar capable of summoning lightning and merging with their kindred (which would be a bit of a mess to work out, rules-wise).

Of course, a level adjustment may still be needed to account for the protoss' superior strength, mental abilities, and size, but the specific abilities of each unit/caste would be easy to put into classes, instead of attempting to have many universal psychic abilities.

Cyclone231
2005-08-27, 02:52 PM
Actually, Cyclone, I think a marine and a zealot would join together as easily as a normal D&D party, after they work out their particular differences in ethos. True, they have different abilities (in many cases, vastly), but many of the psychic abilities of the Protoss can be replicated with technology. Radios, exoskeletal power armor, and other such devices give human soldiers many of the same advantages as protoss psionics, and a party of adventerers usually /expects/ a wide range of abilities in its members.It's like playing one of "Difficult" races described in the Dungeon Master's guide. I mean, if a natural Lycanthrope is difficult to play with an ordinary D&D party, then so is a Protoss.

Here are a few of the basic problems with Protoss teaming up with Terran:
• Protoss are well-equipped. Due to the nature of the setting, upgrading one's weaponry (like in D&D with +1 Swords and such) is rare. However, a Dark Templar's Warp Blades deal a ridiculous amount of damage (enough to kill a marine in one blow).
• Protoss are Psionic. They are naturally allowed Psionic feats, and even common footsoldiers have access to such powers.
• Protoss are designed to outgun Terran in head-to-head. Due to the nature of Starcraft, Protoss cost more, take more time, but are significantly more powerful.
• Protoss have regenerating shields. While this works fine in normal Starcraft, it's really unbalancing in an RPG. Every last Protoss unit has this ability.
• Protoss can get revived into the form of a Dragoon. For Terrans, there is no such option.

Theoretically, a protoss couldstart with certain abilities that differ from a human but are on approximately the same scale, and have their psionic abilities be gained by class levels; this would reflect the differences in abilities between, for example, a zealot with swift legs and psionic blades and a High Templar capable of summoning lightning and merging with their kindred (which would be a bit of a mess to work out, rules-wise). By "Psionic Abilities" I mean that, unlike Terrans, all Protoss are Psionically gifted. Terrans, it's a select few, generally trained to become Ghosts. Protoss, every last one of them is Psionic.

Also, High Templar are apparently multiclass Zealots, considering that the Battle.net Starcraft Compendium says:

The High Templar are seasoned, veteran warriors of the Protoss armies that have walked far down the path of Khala. Those who choose to accept the mantle of the High Templar set aside the frenzied rage of the Zealot, and instead use their highly potent Psionic abilities to bolster the warriors of Aiur. The sight of enemy forces being torn apart by a Psionic Storm or wasting their firepower on projected Hallucinations is proof enough of the battlefield superiority that the High Templar can give to the Protoss.

And I don't really see creating an Archon or Dark Archon as being a mess to work out. It'd probably have an ECL equal to the combined total ECLs for the Templar involved in the creation. It probably wouldn't be available to PCs as a middle-of-the-road option, though. Now, the possibility of saving experience points, or spending them to put them in a "pool" might exist. Perhaps they can reduce their future gains, and once sufficient experience to be equal to their "real" experience is saved, they can become Archons/Dark Archons. This means that they're "equal" to their allies.

Gralamin
2005-08-27, 03:56 PM
Dark Templars would best be handled as a class that cannot be taken in conjunction with High Templar. By their very nature, Dark Templar cannot be High Templar, and visa versa.


Only one problem I see with this. I remeber that Tassadar COULD ALSO wield the dark templars energies. This I belived is correct because otherwise he couldn't kill the Overmind, due to the zergs nature of regeneration can only be stopped by Dark templar Energies.

I would make it so that if a high templar reached a certain stage of trust with a dark templar, he could start to learn to channel the dark energies as well.

Another problem with this however, is this suggests that a dark templar and high templar might be able to fuse. In that case it will be very complicated to create. however If i was to allow that, i would rename Archons to High Archons and make this type of archon be called just archon, or true archon, or something.

A true Archon I would say matains his normal attack, and gets a number of points from some equation like:
(# of High Powers) + (level of high Templar/2) + (level of Dark Templar)
From there, these points can be spent to increase attack power, or to learn dark/high powers.

I've also always saw tassadar's attack as a psychic blast if that will help you make high templars.

I'll post again if I have any better Ideas

Ryshan Ynrith
2005-08-27, 04:46 PM
I see your point, Cyclone. Still, it wouldn't be /too/ hard to integrate a protoss into a group of terrans; it'd just require a bit of work and a significant level adjustment. I've seen plenty of the "difficult" races put into parties of humans; they require a little more work, but don't normally cause real problems.

Did *not* know that about the High Templar...that kind of messes things up a bit, although I suppose there could be a "Protoss" base class that diverges into specialists. I don't know about the dragoon psionics, though.

The shield issue I do not see as that much of a problem; the shields regenerated at a fairly slow rate, although it would be a bit of work to calculate the strength of any given unit's shield. It would also contribute to level adjustments, as with most of the other abilities of the protoss.

As to the ludicrous damage of the dark templar, that could be seen as either being from increased training (which in Starcraft would be represented by the increased cost of the unit, and in d20 would be additional levels, which would make sense if Dark Templar is an advanced/prestige class) or a form of the Sneak Attack ability, or as a combination of these factors. A primary problem in making an RPG from a RTS game is the disconnect from generic types of units, all of which share the same stats, and individuals whose training/equipment (and thus survivability) varies. The Dark Templar you are able to train in Starcraft may well be (purely as an example) Protoss 3/Dark Templar 3 or some such, whereas a marine might be a Strong 2, with proportionally weaker defenses.

An issue that needs to be worked out is the AC system; will armor add DR (which would be true to the original game) or AC (which is easily calculated and run, and requires less work to set up)? I personally would go with the DR, but the simplicity of the AC system is very useful. I'm not sure which would be the best to implement.

jdrich
2005-08-27, 05:27 PM
• Protoss are well-equipped. Due to the nature of the setting, upgrading one's weaponry (like in D&D with +1 Swords and such) is rare. However, a Dark Templar's Warp Blades deal a ridiculous amount of damage (enough to kill a marine in one blow).

The Dark Templar were not very well equipped. You have to remember that Starcraft is a simulation, and not meant to contend with real life. A '1st level' zealot might start out with basic psi blades (think mindblades), and a few points of shield. The enhancements come from the use of Khaydarin Crystals in protoss technology. Remove these, and the protoss are simply large, powerful, and agile psionic beings who live 100's of years. You have to be careful to seperate protoss technology from the species.

• Protoss are Psionic. They are naturally allowed Psionic feats, and even common footsoldiers have access to such powers.

Common footsoldiers only have the ability to eminate warp blades. This is a first-level feat, and only one feat.

• Protoss are designed to outgun Terran in head-to-head. Due to the nature of Starcraft, Protoss cost more, take more time, but are significantly more powerful.

Cost more: Technology:
Take more time: Technology
Significantly more power: A blend of Technology and Race

• Protoss have regenerating shields. While this works fine in normal Starcraft, it's really unbalancing in an RPG. Every last Protoss unit has this ability.

Technology

• Protoss can get revived into the form of a Dragoon. For Terrans, there is no such option.

Technology. I'm sure the protoss technology could be adapted to that of a terran, or even a zerg (it was done in the bonus mission, was it not?).

While having different racial abilities for each planet is not smart, there are 12 colors represented in the starcraft universe, subsisting of six different relative 'factions' or 'subraces:'

Terran Confederacy - Under Duke et al
Kel-Morian Combine - Autonomous
Umojan Protectorate - Autonomous
Sons of Korhal - Jim Raynor
Terran Dominion - Arcturusk Mengskk
United Earth Directorate - Admiral DuGalle


Rounding up "undesirables" —cyborgs, genetically "impure" individuals, hackers, policital dissidents— "Project Purification" was instituted: a campaign of mass genocide in which millions died.

To maintain balance, we can see cyborg enhancements, genetic enhancements, as well as the psionic abilities contributed by the Ghost strain.

Armor adding DR would be more true to the game. You have to compromise.

Also, looking soley at HP:

A marine has 40. This is probably about standard for a 4th-5th level fighter. A zealot has 100. This is probably about standard for a 8th-9th level fighter. So you'd figure that your average protoss would be a bit stronger than your average marine.

On the other hand, we see that a SCV has 60 HP. This would probably symbolize a member of the working class terran. We never see a working class protoss, so there's more work to be done there.

I'd say protoss would have a LA dependant on caste:

Castes:

Judicator Caste - LA +4
Templar Caste - LA +2
Khalai Caste - LA +1

Judicator Caste: Lots of psionic abilities, good psionic scores, mediocre other scores, the pinnacle of the protoss race.

Templar Caste: A few minor psionic abilities, good physical scores, slightly better psionic abilities, the warriors of the protoss race.

Khalai Caste - Psionically-aligned, better than average physical scores, the workers of the protoss race.

Like a Lycanthrope, there are two different types of Dark Templar: Natural (Never a part of the Khala), and 'afflicted' (Severed) who left the Khala after learning of the Dark Templar ways.

Dark Templar would probably be considered just as powerful as Judicators, so the class probably has a LA of 3.

Also of note, with the destruction of the conclave and most of the rest of the protoss forces, is that many of the protoss no longer stay to thier caste. A surviving Khalai might take up the power of psi blades, while a surviving Judicator might be a meanial laborer.

Forte
2005-08-27, 06:06 PM
This is what I would use for the Protoss:

Protoss Racial Traits
+2 Str, -2 Wis, -2 Cha: Protoss are physically stronger than humans but have an extremely dogmatic culture that tends to make them less perceptive to the world around them and the social structures of other races.
Medium: As medium sized creatures, protoss have no special bonuses due to their size.
Protoss base land speed is 40 feet.
Low-Light Vision: A protoss can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Darkvision out to 10 feet.
Powerful Build: The physical stature of protoss lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a protoss is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the protoss is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A protoss is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A protoss can use weapons designed for a creature one size category larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain the same of those of a creature his actual size. The benefit of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
Luminous Eyes: Protoss eyes glow with psionic power. This gives them a +2 racial bonus to saving throws to resist light based blinding effects like from that of flash grenades. However, since the protoss cannot voluntarily supress the effect, they suffer a -2 penatly to Hide checks.
Naturaly Psionic: Protoss gain 1 bonus power point at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
Psi-Like Abilities: 1/day - Inertial Armor, My Light, Precognition, Defensive or Precognition Offensive (chosen at 1st level). Manifester level is equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Level Adjustment: +1

Subrace: Dark Templar Racial Traits
As Protoss above with the following exceptions.
+2 Dex, -2 Cha: While physically weaker than their protoss bretheren, dark templar are more graceful and lithe. They do not have the narrow minded attitudes of other protoss, but centuries of persecution have made them untrusting and aloof.
Psi-Like Abilities: 1/day - Chameleon, Conceal Thoughts, Escape Detection. Manifester level is equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DCs are Charisma-based.


Caste
The protoss culture is caste based which lends itself easily to character classes.

Templar, Zealot - Soulknife.
Templar, High Templar - Psion.
Kalai - Artificer using psionic item creation bonus feats rather than magical item creation feats.
Judicator - A psionic variant cleric or priest.
Dark Templar - A psionic assassin prestige class.


Dragoons are easily represented using the Mecha rules from d20 modern.
Dragoon (PL 8)
Size: Large, Quadrapedal (-1 size)
Superstructure: Megatanium
Armor: Megatanium
Armor Penalty: -10
Strength Bonus: +8
Speed: 30 feet
Bonus Hit Points: 100
Hardness: 30
Bonus to Defense: +16 (+12 armor, +5 deflection field, -1size)
Reach: 10 feet
Dexterity Penalty: -
Equipment Package: Crackerjack Neural Link (head slot, replaces cokpit), Tsunami 480 Plasma Cannon (torso, back, and shoulder slots), Deflection Field (loss of one arm slot), Life Support System (loss of other arm slot), Comm System (no slots).

Cyclone231
2005-08-27, 07:28 PM
You have to be careful to seperate protoss technology from the species.True, in a way, but they key factor is the adjective in your sentence. Protoss technology. Terrans don't drive Reavers and they don't wield Psi Blades, just as Protoss don't fire Gauss Rifles or drive Seige Tanks. So, you need to take it into account.

Common footsoldiers only have the ability to eminate warp blades. This is a first-level feat, and only one feat.True, true, but it piles on with the rest.

Cost more: Technology:
Take more time: Technology
Significantly more power: A blend of Technology and RaceWhat I'm saying is that it doesn't really "cost more" to be a Protoss, except for the LA.

TechnologyYes, but it's technology accesable only by Protoss.

Technology. I'm sure the protoss technology could be adapted to that of a terran, or even a zerg (it was done in the bonus mission, was it not?).Could be. But isn't.

I'd say protoss would have a LA dependant on caste:I wouldn't. I would say that genetically, all the Protoss come from the same build. I mean, yes, all the Zealots and all the Dark Templar look the same, but all the Marines and all the Firebats look the same too. And yes, they look different from eachother, but compare a Marine, a Firebat and a Goliath. Not much similarity in their faces either.

Annarrkkii
2005-08-27, 08:05 PM
I personally don't think you can take the exact features of the game and make them identical in an RPG, Cyclone. You're gonna' have to distort to a certain degree to make it more fun.

In my opinion, the Protoss castes may be represented as such:

Khala Protoss

Medium-sized Outsider
Speed of 30 ft.
+2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
Naturally Psionic: Gain additional Power Point per level
Favored Class: Soulknife

Naturally Psionic means they can take such feats as Inertial Armor and Speed of Thought. Soulknife deals with the psiblade problem. The fact that the 'psiblade' can be thrown can be accepted or ruled as we please.

Templar Protoss

Medium-sized Outsider
Speed of 30 ft.
+2 Charisma, -2 Strength
Naturally Psionic: Templars gain a free power point per level
Favored Class: Psion

These guys don't actually need any inherent abilities, they just get them from their Powers as they gain levels. The fact that all the Templar in the game can use them just means that they are high-level Psions. And for their special attack, say that they use Greater Concussion with that one feat that lets you make a level check to manifest up to a 3rd level Power for free.

Judiciar Templar

Medium-sized Outsider
Speed 40 ft.
+4 Charisma, +2 Widom, +2 Intelligence
Potently Psionic: Judiciars gain an two additional Power Point per level.
Natural Armor: +3
Judiciars can manifest Greater Concussion at will
Add +1 to the save DC of all Powers manifested by a Judiciar
Racial Hit Dice: 4d8
+4 BAB
+4 Fort, +4 Ref., +4 Will
2 Feats
1 Ability Score boost
Skill points
Favored class: Psion
LA: +5

There you go.


Then, you just add Dark Templar and High Templar as Prestige classes. I don't know about Archons or Dragoons though.

[color=red]EDIT: Added in the LA for the Judiciars.

The Glyphstone
2005-08-27, 08:27 PM
You should add the (Native) subtype. Protoss shouldn't be in danger of forced teleportation(Banishment) back to Aiur just because they're on a different planet.

jdrich
2005-08-27, 09:02 PM
I don't think the outsider subtype works, since there are no other 'planes' of existence in the Koprulu Sector.

Venatius
2005-08-27, 09:22 PM
Yeah, in a one-plane cosmology, "Outsider" type and the (Extraplanar) subtype kinda lose definition. There's not much room to fit them, except maybe using Outsider with (Native) to simulate the pure-energy Archons, what with the whole "soul = body = soul" thing Outsiders have going. Or possibly even the Xel'Naga, depending on whether or not you wanna get into them and/or how or if their nature has actually been hammered down any.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-27, 09:39 PM
Still don't have any emails from a pissed off Blizzard.

My thought on Protoss psionics was the Protoss PCs roll for how potent they are. Xel'Naga... I don't know enough about them. Or the hybrids, so those probably won't show up.

Also, I just had a strange idea. Robot PCs. Imagine being a reaver, or even a drone if you don't mind not fighting.

jdrich
2005-08-27, 09:56 PM
Xel Naga and Hybrids are something that can be added later, I suppose.

Ryshan Ynrith
2005-08-27, 10:27 PM
Very nice writeups, Forte. A lot of the psionic feats resemble upgrades from SC, no less...Speed of Thought for the speed upgrade, Talented (IIRC) for extra power points (such as from the various Amulet upgrades), and various psionic powers often replicate shown or implied abilities.

Only note is that the Soulknife has only average BaB, and the Zealots always seemed to be extremely focused warriors to me. Of course, most of the d20 modern classes are average BaB, too, so...not really a problem. Again, nice writeups.

Cyclone231
2005-08-27, 11:40 PM
I wouldn't add Xel'Naga or Hybrids. First off, at their current level of existance in canon, we don't know their abilities are. Secondly, they aren't needed; the "struggle" of Starcraft and Brood War is that of the Terrans, Protoss and Zerg. Now, when Starcraft II comes round, maybe.

I personally don't think you can take the exact features of the game and make them identical in an RPG, Cyclone. You're gonna' have to distort to a certain degree to make it more fun. Yes, of course. But it should remain true to the game to a good extent. I mean as a few examples of alterations I've made thus far:
• Feedback allows a Will Save
• Mind Control is not permanent
• Cloaked characters can be attacked, but they get a +12 bonus to AC.

But you don't need to rid yourself of Dragoons as Protoss-only, for example. It's actually a very interesting game mechanic, and makes a very large gap between the two races. I like it. It's flavorful, it puts a very major difference between the two races (which there should be!).



Also, I don't think that just taking the Psionic's Handbook (which is what I presume you're doing, I don't own it) works. Starcraft has a very specific system of Psionics, which are defined for a Science Fiction world, whereas the Psionic's Handbook is designed for a Fantasy world. And a high fantasy one at that; I would imagine Starcraft d20 campaigns being gritty; fighting off difficult warriors that can hurt the entire squad, rather than weak ones that can merely wear them down.

Plus, the Psionic's Handbook psionics often just don't fit. I mean, could you pictures a Templar, Archon or Ghost using Deja Vu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dejaVu.htm) or Feat Leech (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/featLeech.htm)?

Gorbash Kazdar
2005-08-27, 11:48 PM
Why not simply have cloaking work like invisibility, with a 50% miss chance, unless some other ability counteracts the cloaking?

Annarrkkii
2005-08-28, 12:00 AM
Plus, the Psionic's Handbook psionics often just don't fit. I mean, could you pictures a Templar, Archon or Ghost using Deja Vu or Feat Leech?



Then don't include those powers :D.

I see nothing wrong with using the RAW from D+D, just twitched for Starcraft. Just nix the powers you don't like (which is easy, just copy the psion power lists from the SRD into a Word document and delete the ones you don't like) and come up with a few of your own. D+D has almost everything in Sracraft covered, technology aside, or could have it covered with a tweak or two, and anything it can't, d20 Future can, including the technology. Spaceships are probably the hardest thing to deal with, so turn to the RAW of Star WarsTM for all your whicle needs! With some tweaks there, you got all the vehicles down. Equip a land speeder (Star WarsTM d20) with a Fragmentation grenade launcher (as seen in the DMG) and an automatic weapon (d20 Modern/D+D DMG), and, viola! A vulture! Give it some spider mines and your done. Spider mines will be a bit tricky, though.

Star WarsTM d20 could be a great tool here, I always did like their Vitality and Wound point system.

I am not saying we should just turn Starcraft d20 into a patchwork of other RPGs, I am just saying that we, in no way, have to make up our own rules for everything. You seem to insist on even changing the rules for invisibilty, when perfectly good ones exist in D+D. And mind control? How about dominate monster? We can use the RAW for these, just tweak them.

The zerg may be a bit tricky, though.

And I agree about the Outsider thing, it was just the closest thing I had at the time, but it does make sense in a way. If you make them Native, then they have the whole thing about "can't be resurrected". If we ban all types of magic except for psionics, so no arcane and no divine, than this means that Dragoons are the only way anyone can come back. And even if there were another way, it wouldn't work on the Protoss, as they're Outsiders. Monsterous humanoid might work.




Only note is that the Soulknife has only average BaB, and the Zealots always seemed to be extremely focused warriors to me. Of course, most of the d20 modern classes are average BaB, too, so...not really a problem. Again, nice writeups.



So multiclass to Fighter! Yay for the RAW! All we have to do is tweak, tweak, tweak the lovely RAW!

Forte
2005-08-28, 03:09 AM
Spider Mine: CR 1; Tiny Construct; HD 1/4d10; hp 2; Mas -; Init +0; Spd 30 ft., burrow 5 ft.; Defense 15 (+3 dex, +2 size), touch 15, flat-footed 12; BAB +0; Grp -4; Atk Explosive Mine (5d6 slashing); FS 2 1/2 ft. by 2 1/2 ft.; reach 0 ft.; SQ construct traits; AL owner; SV Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +0; AP 0; Rep +0; Str 7, Dex 16, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1.

Skills: Hide +7 (+11 underground)
Feats: -
Purchace DC: 22
Restriction: Military (+3)

Frame: Armature
Locomotion: Multiple Legs (4)
Manipulators: None
Armor: None
Sensors: Class II Sensor System
Skill Software: Hide Progit (4 ranks)
Ability Upgrade: Dexterity Upgrade (+2)
Accessory: Explosive Mine, Burrower

Robot Accessories
The following new accessories were use in the Spider Mine above.

Explosive Mine (PL 5)
This unit is designed to destroy not only the robot, but deal damage to everything in the near vicinity. Detonating the mine is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The detonation deals damage to the square the robot is in based on the size of the robot. Half the damage dealt to the target square(s) is dealt as splash damage to adjacent squares. The number of adjacent squares effected is based on the robot's size.
The blast from an Explosive mine deals slashing damage to the target square(s). A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 robot's HD, minimum 10) reduces the damage by half.
Purchace DC: 15 + 1 per size category.
Restriction: Military (+3)

Robot Explosive Mine
Robot Size - Damage - Splash Radius
Colossal - 17d6 - 20 ft.
Gargantuan - 15d6 - 15 ft.
Huge - 13d6 - 10 ft.
Large - 11d6 - 10ft.
Medium-size - 9d6 - 5 ft.
Small - 7d6 - 5 ft.
Tiny - 5d6 - 5 ft.
Diminutive - 3d6 - none
Fine - 1d6 -none

Burrower (PL 6)
The burrower allows a robot to conceal itself in the ground. It gives the robot a burrow speed of 5 feet. that it can use when on soft ground (loose dirt, gravel, loamy soil, etc.). The robot can conceal itself while burrowed, giving it a +4 bonus to Hide checks.
Purchace DC: 2 + 2 per size category difference to Medium.
Restriction: None

Edit: Fixed total purchase DC, made table easier to read.

Forte
2005-08-28, 03:43 AM
Possible Idea for Zerg PC's

Because the zerg as a race are similar in design to the borg in that genetic designs are added to the race's genetic library and those schematics are called upon to shape the inidividul to serve a specific purpose, I suggest this for running zerg creatures and PC's.

Base Creature: All zerg start off with a base creature that the zerg have stored within their genetic libraries. This base creature must be chosen at 1st level in the case of PC zerg characters. A zerg's type is abberation.

Improvement: Given enough experience to achieve a new level, the base creature has a template applied to it instead using the gene therapy templates from d20 future (I'll give two examples below). With each level would also come +1HD. The racial HD of zerg would be d8 since they're abberations.

Perfection of Mind: Zerg aren't truely limited to their corporeal forms as long as the overmind or their overwatching cerebrate has a link with them. If their body is destroyed, it's a simple matter of reforming it with the abundant biomass available within the hives. However, this requires a reinvestment of evolution (in game terms, losing a level, and thus an aquired template, as normal)

Example Templates:

Aquan (Template)
Aquan is an aquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid (edit: Change this to abberation) (refered to hearafter as the base creature). It uses all the character's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Special Qualities: An aquan retains all the special qualities of the character and gains the additional special qualities listed below.
Amphibious (Ex): Aquans can breath equally well in air and in water.
Blindsight (Ex): Aquans have blindsight with a range of 60 feet when under water only.
Low-Light Vision (Ex): Aquans have low-light vision with a range of 60 feet on land and in water.
Skills: Same as character, with a +2 species bonus on Listen checks while underwater, a +2 species bonus on Move Silently checks while underwater, a +2 species bonus on Navigate checks while underwater, and a +4 species bonus on all Swim checks.
Feats: An aquan gains athletic as a bonus feat.

Healer (Template)
Healer is an aquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid (edit: Change this to abberation) (refered to hearafter as the base creature). It uses all the character's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Special Qualities: A healer retains all the special qualities of the character and gains the additional special qualities listed below.
Fast Healing 3 (Ex): A healer heals 3 points of damage each round. Fast healing stops working when the healer reaches -10 hp or fewer.
Lowered Damage Threshold (Ex): A healer's massive damage threshold is equal to Con-3.
Skills: Same as the character, with a +2 species bonus on Treat Injury checks made to treat himself.

A few balances made, such as a minimum requirement for each template and you'd be good to go. They seem quite powerful, but take into consideration that these characters will not have class levels; only HD and templates.

Annarrkkii
2005-08-28, 10:27 AM
Indeed, now I see why he thanked you, and not I. The spider mines are excellent. And I see you are making these from d20 Modern rules.

As far as zerg go, I am not sure, as that sounds a little hard to manage. We could run it as the PC being a zerg parasite, and, as it progresses in levels, it is promoted through better hosts. However, this creates to much dependence on the hive. WQe could just make the INfested template, then the Z'zagashi dune runners and such, and the player chooses the one with closest LA to the party, meaning probably a Zerglin, Hydralisk, or Infested Terran for a 1st level party.

Say! What if we adapted the Hydralisk from tweaking and shrinking the Ankheg a size category?

The Glyphstone
2005-08-28, 10:35 AM
For the Spider mines, shouldn't it blow up automatically if destroyed?

Forte
2005-08-28, 12:10 PM
For the Spider mines, shouldn't it blow up automatically if destroyed?

I think that would be a bit powerful as it would make a drone that can just wait until you're on top of it, then pop up and deal damage regardless of what you do. Besides, you could destroy them with no damage in starcraft.


As far as zerg go, I am not sure, as that sounds a little hard to manage.


I don't think so. It would be no harder than keeping track of class abilities or spells or feats. You just pick and choose a set of bonuses for each level. This would work for monster advancement too.

The Glyphstone
2005-08-28, 12:11 PM
Didn't they deal damage if killed in melee?

Forte
2005-08-28, 12:14 PM
No. A dark templar could destroy one before having damage dealt.

The Glyphstone
2005-08-28, 12:36 PM
Yeah, you're right. Geez, it's been so long since I played that game....good times.... :D

Dr._Weird
2005-08-28, 01:58 PM
Good times is right... Starcraft is one of my favorite games. Along with FF7.

Norhg
2005-08-28, 03:56 PM
Good times is right... Starcraft is one of my favorite games. Along with FF7.

A guess?
You are born between 1986-89

jdrich
2005-08-28, 04:55 PM
You have your years wrong, methinks.

More like 1982-1986.

DarkLight140
2005-08-28, 06:16 PM
Heh, Norhg wins. Those are two of my favorites, and I fit his year range quite well.

For the Zerg system- if you're starting with a base strain, why not have there be several Zerg races, each with their own LA, and as they level they gain templates as Forte described? We could justify this by saying that each Zerg PC is a 'test form', which is being altered in unique ways in hopes of creating a new and more successful Zerg strain (if you recall, the new Brood War units were supposedly invented from the base creatures after encountering the Terrans). This pretty much rules out any 1st-level Zerg characters due to LA, but people probably shouldn't be playing Zerg in the most basic games anyway.

Are Protoss shields purely due to technology? I'd always thought that they were something Protoss just learned how to do with their psychic power, or at least they depended on interfacing with their powers to be used.

Also, isn't the Soulknife class a bit... weak... to represent the warriors the Protoss get? At the very least, it would need some ability-tweaking.

Cyclone231
2005-08-28, 07:05 PM
Why not simply have cloaking work like invisibility, with a 50% miss chance, unless some other ability counteracts the cloaking?Well, there are a few reasons for me doing that:
1. You can see the cloaked character, just not very well.
2. It means that there isn't another roll in the equation.

The best way to make Zerg PCs would probably be "Infested" (probably simulated by a template) characters like Kerrigan and Duran, as well as that little known unit, the Infested Terran (http://www.battle.net/scc/zerg/units/iterran.shtml). Though why you would want to play a Zerg is beyond me. I mean, they're the bad guys of StarCraft!

I wrote a template a while back, when I was doing this before. It's kinda old and poor, but it's something to start with.
Hit Dice: As before.
Speed: Same as character
AC: The infested has a +2 to his AC due to natural armor. An infested cannot wear armor.
Damage: An unarmed attack used by an infested has an extra +1 per size after Tiny. (+2 for Medium characters)
Face/Reach: Same as character.
Special Attacks and Qualities: An infested retains all the characters special attacks and qualities. An infested character may also regenerate one point of lethal damage each minute.
Saves: Same as character
Abilities: An infested gains 3 Strength and loses 3 Wisdom and Charisma.
Skills: Same as character
Feats: Same as character, but the character may choose to replace these feats for Zerg Special Abilities (such as Ensnare)
Advancement: By character class.

Thornwood413
2005-08-28, 08:14 PM
Playing an infested Terran probably wouldn't work, I mean aren't they suicide troops? I know there's special cases like Kerrigan and Duran but in those cases (well in Kerrigan's case at least, I forget how Duran actually went Zerg) the Overmind needed them for special roles... so any infested character would have to be pretty damn powerful unless you have a lot of character sheets. Although the special infested Terran aren't mindless which makes them more plausible for playing then other Zerg I guess...

jdrich
2005-08-28, 08:46 PM
Are Protoss shields purely due to technology? I'd always thought that they were something Protoss just learned how to do with their psychic power, or at least they depended on interfacing with their powers to be used.

Sort of like a spell completion or power completion item. The crystals used the power of the protoss warriors to focus thier psionic energies into a shield.

There are also crystals that hold a psionic energy of thier own, which powered the shields in most cases I'm sure (reavers, carriers, etc).

Eric_The_Mad
2005-08-28, 09:57 PM
One thing to keep in mind about Terran Marines... According to the background info on them, many of them were psychotic or otherwise aggressive, and they had various cybernetic implants to keep them under control and obeying orders. A example of this can be found if you do the "click click click" thing on one to hear the various comments they make. Eventually the marine will say "If it weren't for these implants, I'd frag you!"

Just something to keep in mind.

Another thing, socially, is that, again according to the background info in the original game, the terrans who first arrived in the area were malcontents, rebels, criminals, cyberpunks, etc. Just a interesting factoid to keep in mind.

And... What about a PrC for Marshalls. Raynor was my favorite character.

Cyclone231
2005-08-28, 10:43 PM
Playing an infested Terran probably wouldn't work, I mean aren't they suicide troops?I think what happened with them is that they got the Scourge's suicide ability. Since you don't have to choose it, PCs wouldn't.

Gorbash Kazdar
2005-08-28, 10:50 PM
Well, there are a few reasons for me doing that:
1. You can see the cloaked character, just not very well.
2. It means that there isn't another roll in the equation.[

See, I always felt that you could only see the cloaked units because truly invisible units would have been too powerful. Besides, you can spot invisible creatures in d20, it's just very difficult. I don't see why you'd want to make a new mechanic where an old one would suffice. Moreover, using an AC bonus instead of a miss-chance seems like it would be more confusing to adjudicate when the creature can be seen.

Basically, I just think it's easier to use the existing rule that best models the situation than to try and invent a new one with unknown implications.

DarkLight140
2005-08-28, 11:12 PM
I'd agree with Gorbash Kazdar on this one- a miss chance and sticking with the default is better. If necessary, just say that being invisible gives a much smaller bonus to Hide checks. I've always figured invisibility to work as an automatically active, unrestricted by movement hide in plain sight ability, which grants a +40 bonus to Hide checks as written (well, +20 if you're moving, but I tend to ignore that part). You make the Hide bonus only, say, +15, and suddenly it's perfectly possible to identify and target cloaked units.

ghostrunner
2005-08-29, 12:54 AM
...I forget how Duran actually went Zerg...

It's been a few years since I've played StarCraft, but I remember thinking that Duran wasn't Zerg. In Brood Wars, there was a hidden bonus mission midway through the Zerg campaign where you played as Protoss forces and came across this abandoned planet. On the planet, the protoss find holding tanks with zerg/protoss hybrids or something weird like that (I don't remember what). Basically, you get a hint that something big and scary is going on; you discover that there is some other force at work here besides the 3 main races. Now, as I said, it's been a few years, but I seem to remember Duran having a brief cameo on that mission, and I got the impression that he was part of this other race. Maybe I'm mixing my thoughts with another mission. Anyway, I distinctly remember thinking that Duran must not be human or zerg. He was something else entirely.

I think... ;)

Thornwood413
2005-08-29, 01:26 AM
Yeah I remember that he was really part of another race (probably the Xel' Naga) but I was wondering if there was actually a point where he "let" the zerg infest him or had it happened before Brood War occurs.

Cyclone231
2005-08-29, 10:14 AM
Oh, Duran was so infested. He may have been working for the Xel'Naga, or gotten it into his head that he was working for the Xel'Naga, but he was a zerg. How else do you explain the following traits?
• He regenerates hit points like a Zerg.
• He has Carapace (the Zerg armor)
• He has the Consume ability (which allows you to eat an ally)

Nyrath
2005-08-29, 10:22 AM
The Xel'naga where (are?) THE masters of genetic enginering. They created many races but the two last attempts known where protoss and the zerg. If they could create the zergs ability for adaptation they could certainly enchance themselves and their servants.

Cyclone231
2005-08-29, 05:36 PM
The Protoss had purity of form. The Zerg were purity of essense. If a Xel'Naga wanted to create a powerful servant, they'd use the Protoss.

Premier
2005-08-29, 06:10 PM
Actually, IIRC the Xel-Naga's ultimate goal was to combine the Protoss and Zerg races, which is also what the Overmind attempted in its own manner, and what Duran has set out to accomplish, as you learn in the secret mission of Broodwar.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-29, 08:57 PM
Tassadar's sacrifice in the end of the original brings up an interesting question: Just how much use does psi have? I mean, Tassadar could channel the Dark Templar psi and the High Templar psi into a carrier, then wouldn't there be endless things you could make stronger with it? I think I remember reading that the zealots blades have something to do with psi, but I'm not sure. Should it be an open-ended question that the players ask the DM, such as "Can I channel psi into my trained Bengalaas to make it stronger?"

And BTW, Duran was infested. I think the Xel'Naga put him up to the job.

One thing to keep in mind about Terran Marines... According to the background info on them, many of them were psychotic or otherwise aggressive, and they had various cybernetic implants to keep them under control and obeying orders. A example of this can be found if you do the "click click click" thing on one to hear the various comments they make. Eventually the marine will say "If it weren't for these implants, I'd frag you!" I love pissing off the units. ;D

Cyclone231
2005-08-29, 09:17 PM
Actually, IIRC the Xel-Naga's ultimate goal was to combine the Protoss and Zerg races, which is also what the Overmind attempted in its own manner, and what Duran has set out to accomplish, as you learn in the secret mission of Broodwar.Yes, I know that. What I was saying, is if Duran was created directly by the Xel'Naga, he wouldn't have Zerg traits, he would have Protoss traits, because the purity of form belongs to the Protoss.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-29, 10:01 PM
I know, I was agreeing with you.

ghostrunner
2005-08-30, 01:01 AM
I think I remember reading that the zealots blades have something to do with psi, but I'm not sure.

I think they were controlled with psi, similar to a soulknife, but also had a technilogical element to them. There's the cinematic where one of the Protoss characters gets killed It doesn't show him die, but his psi blades give out on him when he gets ambushed by zerg.
It's been years, though, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-30, 08:35 AM
It was Fenix. Yeah, that happened.

Nyrath
2005-08-30, 03:24 PM
Most protoss use crystals to channel their shields and blades allthough they can do it on their own. It's just easier and more effective. That piece of cinema shows just the beginning of the encounter, in the background there's creep dripping from the roof and down on the floor. It's a major counter attack.

And concerning Tassadar. He was epic in his power and had as or more complete knowledge of it's use as anyone alive.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-30, 04:50 PM
Yes, I'm not saying they should be able to channel psi into carriers. Just little things, like warp blades.

Starbuck_II
2005-08-30, 05:39 PM


In my opinion, the Protoss castes may be represented as such:

Khala Protoss

Medium-sized Outsider
Speed of 30 ft.
+2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
Naturally Psionic: Gain additional Power Point per level
Favored Class: Soulknife

Naturally Psionic means they can take such feats as Inertial Armor and Speed of Thought. Soulknife deals with the psiblade problem. The fact that the 'psiblade' can be thrown can be accepted or ruled as we please.

Inertail armor is no longer a feat version 3.5. If you still play 3.0 (I wouldn't) than okay.
Version 3.5 is in the SRD at the Website:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35

So -2 Cha means they are less confident and bad talkers to their own race?
Naturally psionics gives 2 PP, it is overpowered to give more than that i think.

Wouldn't Psi-warrior be a better class?
Maybe 1 level Soulknife and rest Psi-warrior besuse than you can actually manifest powers. I mean currently you give them so much PP for no reason.


Templar Protoss

Medium-sized Outsider
Speed of 30 ft.
+2 Charisma, -2 Strength
Naturally Psionic: Templars gain a free power point per level
Favored Class: Psion

These guys don't actually need any inherent abilities, they just get them from their Powers as they gain levels. The fact that all the Templar in the game can use them just means that they are high-level Psions. And for their special attack, say that they use Greater Concussion with that one feat that lets you make a level check to manifest up to a 3rd level Power for free.

Shouldn't favired class be Wilder since Cha is manifesting stat?
Still think they shoud just get 2 PP naturally. The rest is gained by leveling in a class.

Greater Concussion no longer exists. Concussion is a second level power than can be augmented.
(acts similar to Magic missile but affects objects)


Judiciar Templar

Medium-sized Outsider
Speed 40 ft.
+4 Charisma, +2 Widom, +2 Intelligence
Potently Psionic: Judiciars gain an two additional Power Point per level.
Natural Armor: +3
Judiciars can manifest Greater Concussion at will
Add +1 to the save DC of all Powers manifested by a Judiciar
Racial Hit Dice: 4d8
+4 BAB
+4 Fort, +4 Ref., +4 Will
2 Feats
1 Ability Score boost
Skill points
Favored class: Psion
LA: +5

There you go.

Again why not move to 3.5, why still playing 3.0?


Dark Templar= Base Ninja class found in Complete Warrior.

Sudden Strike + weapon damage kills a Marine. Ninja can go invisible so it works.

Annarrkkii
2005-08-30, 09:16 PM
Okay. Sorry Guys, I am still chillin' in 3.0 psionics land. Oh well, I guess Starbuck's made the right corrections.

Jotoco
2005-08-30, 09:49 PM
Here is my atempt in the zerg thingy, after I may add some of the other things. And I don't like AT ALL giving free power points to protoss. I think it would be better to just give protoss alibities, like:

Warp Blades (psi): Every zealot has the skill necessary to wield wap blades for 5 minutes per day. It does not need to be used all at once.
and go on...

But, for the ZERG thing:

Every Zerg begin as a zergling and gain the ability to MUTATE in other creature after that. [Re-thinking that every may be a little harsh... maybe add a seccond option to start out as a drone and grow a diplomatic way, maybe, going thru overlord and cerebrate, maybe? thoughs for later, let this start]

First state:
ZERGLING - small aberration
Prereqs: none
HD: d6
Class skills: Climb, swin, spot, listen, hide, intimidate, jump and survival.
Skills per level: 4 + int mod.
BAB: 3/4- level
Saves: Ref - Good, Fort and will poor
Landspeed: 40feet

Level Progression:
1st:
Atribute adjustment: Str+2 Dex+2 Wis-2 Int-4 Cha-4
Claws: Two claws dealing 1d4 damage each.

2nd:
Small regeneration: Regen 1 HP for every 10 minutes if not taking any actions.

3rd:
Pointy teeth: Bite 1d4 damage.
Multi-attack: as the feat

4th:
Burrow: Can Burrow itself. It takes 1d3 turns to do so, and it gains a +15 to Hide checks.
Tremorsense: Can sense sutile movements of the earth, such as a person walking to its direction. It works even better when burrowed.
Augmented muscles: increses landspeed by 10ft.

5th:
Mutate 1: Can mutate into a Hydralisk. This must be choosen upon gain of the experience necessary to be 4th level.
Better regeneration: Regen 1 HP for every 10 minutes.
Augmented muscles: landspeed increased by another 10ft
Increased jumping: gains +8 to jump checks
Claws growth: claws deal 1d6 damage.

6th:
improved bite: bite deals 1d6 damage.
Augmented muscles: landspeed increased by another 10ft

7th:
Augmented muscles: landspeed increased by another 10ft
Stronger body: Gains +2 to fort saves
Growth: Becomes medium sized. Claws deal d8 damage.

8th
Mutate 2: Can Mutate into a Mutalisk. This must be choosen upon gain of the experience necessary to be 7th level.
Growth: Becomes Large sized. Claws deal d10 damage.

9th:
Mutate 3: Can mutate to an ultralisk. This must be choosen upon attaing enough exp... blah blah blah
Could add some other progression, bur by now it had the optino to turn into a ranged combatant, a flying creature or a tank. If nothing fits, than quit being a zerg.


Yes, this is something that don't open up the scope, I know. But THAT is how to be a zerg... It sucks.

Though the whole Drone thingy to be like a "diplomat" or a non-fighter must be a good way around it. But for the time being, I will not make this.

Jotoco
2005-08-30, 10:04 PM
Stared working in the Hydralisk thingy:

Hydralisk:
HD: d8
BAB: 3/4
Saves: Fort and Will Good, ref poor.
Skills: (need work here)
Skills per level: 4 + int Mod.


1st:
Bodily growth: Grow to Large Size, and chages shape to match that of a Hydralisk. (see starcraft anywhere in the world).
Cranial growth: As an effect og the cranial growth, Hydralisks gain +4 to Intelligence.
Acid Spines: Acid Spines are ranged weapons that do not allow AoO for being used in melee that do 2d6 damage, have range increment of 60ft and grant automatic Rapid-shot feat.
Better regen: Regen 1 HP every 10 min.

2nd:
.......
need work still... I will add this in the next days, maybe sum it up for the whole zerg thing and post it for once in this weekend.

Please give your ideas here, they will be very welcome.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-30, 10:37 PM
I like the Zerg idea, but I think there should be an option to mutate to Hydralisk. Just to balance it out. And why is the pointy teeth on level three?

Protoss Zealot- Medium Humanoid
Prereqs: None
HD: d8
Shields: + 50 to HP, AC 16. Must be gotten past to hit zealot. Regenerates 1 Shield HP every 5 minutes.
Psi-Blades: Two blades, d20+8 damage.

Heres a start to the zealot, I'll get more on it later.
I still need a way to make the Protoss less accessible then say... the Zerg. Any suggestions on that?

DarkLight140
2005-08-30, 10:57 PM
Um, guys, remember that the Zerg do not change between different base forms. No zergling turns into a Hydralisk- it just can't be done. We're going to have to keep them separate.

Jotoco
2005-08-30, 11:17 PM
That topic is just a mess...
We need to be done with something.

Will AC be like damage reduction?
Will we use the games actual hit points? (50, 100, 400...)
For God sake, will we use the actual D&D damage? (d20+8 at level one?!?!?!)

Oh, And I should add some Natural AC bonus to zerglings... since they don't use armor...


Um, guys, remember that the Zerg do not change between different base forms. No zergling turns into a Hydralisk- it just can't be done. We're going to have to keep them separate.
How would you handle level for zerg? It's the best way I though so far, I it's nice enough. If you want to be exactly like the game, just play the game

Eric_The_Mad
2005-08-31, 12:01 AM
Why bother making up Zerg at all? They seem to be ideal as villians and enemies.

Please, before you attempt to justify it, please keep in mind that the zerg, ALL of the zerg, are servants of the Overmind. Even Kerrigan was subject to It's Will. Even with the changes post-Brood War, a individual zerg has NO free will. Even the mighty cerebrates could but serve the Overmind, although they had a certain amount of free will in how they carried out (and read this next part carefully) *the* Overmind's will.

Make them up as monsters, but only in the sense to be NPC's. But to make them available as a PC race would be, IMHO, directly breaking the "canon" of the Starcraft setting. It also wouldn't be much fun. If you hate having the DM push your character in certain directions, then you WOULD hate being a zerg. FOr, you see, the OverDM...err Overmind would simply take over and you'd be a robot. Actually, no "would be", you are.

Admittedly, one could make a argument about Kerrigan and Duran, but my argument is that they are special cases. NPC's, and not PC's.

So I fail to see why the discussion of making classes for them. They are monsters, nothing more. Biological tools and weapons to serve the hive/Overmind, that's all. There is NOTHING heroic about them.

Eric_The_Mad
2005-08-31, 12:08 AM
How would you handle level for zerg? It's the best way I though so far, I it's nice enough. If you want to be exactly like the game, just play the game

Well, I wouldn't handle them. But you can read my argument for treating the zerg as simple monsters, and use HD advancement for tougher ones.

But... Each zerg type would be a seperate class. At least that's how I see it, with a setting rule that they can NOT multi-class.

But, again, I don't think the zerg would have "classes".

Jotoco
2005-08-31, 12:33 AM
Well, like someone said over in this thread already.

The terrans have brain implants that FORCE then to do the commander's will

SO no one is going to play Terrans too. Since they will not control their characters.

And even the protoss. They are so honor and "For Ayur!!!!" that they would hardly ever get over any order.

SO that brings us to one thing:

Either you change Starcraft a LOT or you can't play at ALL with ANY race

DarkLight140
2005-08-31, 12:57 AM
Not so. While the Terran Marines tend to have certain behavior-affecting implants, the Ghosts inevitably have controlling and dampening ones, and the Protoss do have the whole racial-mental-link thing going, they're fundamentally independent. The Zerg are like, well, huh. Certain Zerg obviously have limited independence; Cerebrates, Kerrigan, Duran, etc. However, in the missions where you see uncontrolled Zerg without the capability to mentally control others, they're either crazed and killing everything that moves (or doesn't) or have fallen pretty much inert.

For individual Zerg statistics, I would design a monster class for each strain, with the option of multiclassing into the more evolved strains (hydralisk->lurker, mutalisk->guardian) with paladin-to-blackguard-type level exchange at certain levels and above. This would result in Zerg PCs being, say, flightless mutalisks at certain levels, but it's still more true to form than turning zerglings into defilers.

Jotoco
2005-08-31, 01:09 AM
Not so. While the Terran Marines tend to have certain behavior-affecting implants, the Ghosts inevitably have controlling and dampening ones, and the Protoss do have the whole racial-mental-link thing going, they're fundamentally independent. The Zerg are like, well, huh. Certain Zerg obviously have limited independence; Cerebrates, Kerrigan, Duran, etc. However, in the missions where you see uncontrolled Zerg without the capability to mentally control others, they're either crazed and killing everything that moves (or doesn't) or have fallen pretty much inert.

So, you would say. For not to be controled EVERY player would need to start as a High rank something.
Like a ghost wich would be a +4 thingy or so.
Or Dark Templar (who relatively free) at a, huh +9?
OR an infested someone really important that you have the power to control other zerg, like Kerrigan a +20 Kind of thing?

I must say again:
It's not possible to convert SC to RPG unless you change it to the point of not being quite SC again.

Wich, by the way, Is not entirely bad, since you will not need to worry about Copiright and things




For individual Zerg statistics, I would design a monster class for each strain, with the option of multiclassing into the more evolved strains (hydralisk->lurker, mutalisk->guardian) with paladin-to-blackguard-type level exchange at certain levels and above. This would result in Zerg PCs being, say, flightless mutalisks at certain levels, but it's still more true to form than turning zerglings into defilers.


OR, you could make than be flavorless, powerless, useless freaking larvas for several levels until they can mutate into anything useful. AND BE that thing for the rest of their lives. Zerg just don't gain any level. You stay like you are once you get mutated into anything other than a larva.

Cyclone231
2005-08-31, 10:17 AM
Terrans and Protoss are fundamentally independent creatures. A Protoss can function without his mental-link, and he does function without his mental link (in the case of Dark Templars). A Terran can function without implants (which, by the way, not all of them have), and he does function without his implants. Furthermore, both the Protss and the Terran are not completely controlled, merely dampened.

The Zerg (excluding infested characters), are fundementally dependent creatures. They have no intelligent mind of their own, and instead rely on the overmind. They are bred to do this. Playing a (normal) Zerg is like playing something with a lower Int score than an animal. They are incapable of rational thought.

Jotoco
2005-08-31, 01:49 PM
Terrans without implants are not likely to be given or sold guns and armor...

And the same with the protoss. It's not likely someone who will not obey orders to be put to fight and be given the technology wich let then have psionic blades and such.

I say, SC RPG is not going to happen.

Cyclone231
2005-08-31, 03:14 PM
Now you're just being difficult on purpose. No one ever said that the connection that Protoss have controls them. It just lets them talk to one another more easily. The implants don't control the Terran. They just can't go on a killing spree. Oh noes, the PCs can't go on a psychotic killing spree! Ack! Eek! Oh noes!

DarkLight140
2005-08-31, 03:32 PM
Besides, not all Marines are implant-bearing criminals. And plenty of people in the military- probably all the pilots of vehicles and spacecraft, not to mention medics and SCV's, who are clearly combat engineers of some sort- are perfectly normal.

And the Protoss, as I understand it, have racial telepathy, a vauge racial awareness of emotion and status, and general inborn brotherhood and understanding of one another. That's hardly inhibiting for a determined individual- in fact, it makes them all the more likely as a race to be willing to go along with someone who, in spite of his knowledge of everyone else's desires and needs, feel compelled to go off on his own. They'll understand just how important those things are to him through the link.

Anyway, we don't need the Zerg to be playable. If we can get any of the three races right, then we have a playable RPG, no matter what you say, Jotoco. It requires less creativity to have a single-race party anyway.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-31, 04:20 PM
I don't think the Terrans are that brainwashed either. Otherwise there never would have been the rebellions against the Confeds. And Protoss have as much free will as they want, they just do what has to be done because they know what has to be done.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-31, 04:24 PM
Why don't we just make the Protoss and Terran playable, and if Jotoco doesn't like it, he doesn't have to keep posting his comments.

Cyclone231
2005-08-31, 07:04 PM
Thus far, I have Zergling and Ultralisk completed. This is what I have for them.
Medium Zerg
Zergling
Hit Dice: 2d10+4 (15 HP)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grap: +24/+20
Attack: Claw +3 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Claw +3 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Scent
Special Qualities: Regeneration, hive mind, burrow
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +2
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 0, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skills: Listen +5, Search +2, Spot +5, Survival +5
Feats: Improved Initiative
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, Pack (3-8), Horde (9-60)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Advancement: DR 1/Energy, Adrenaline Glands
Zerglings are a little larger than a full-grown wolf.
COMBAT
The Zergling’s tactics are determined by it’s commander. Typically, Zerglings are used en masse against small enemy encampments, or versus infantry.
Regeneration: If a Zergling is harmed, it regenerates one hit point every other turn. This starts with nonlethal damage and moves on to lethal.
Hive Mind: A Zergling gets a +10 to it’s Will Saves. Furthermore, despite the fact that has no Intelligence, it moves and acts under the control of an intelligent being. If this contact is severed, the Zergling will randomly attack anyone and anything, including it’s allies.
Burrow: A Zergling may dig a hole in which to hide from enemy fire. While within the hole, the Zergling gets a +20 to Hide checks, and a +12 to AC.
Adrenaline Glands: Some Zerglings are genetically enhanced to attack even faster. Such zerglings get a +5 to their Base Attack Bonus, enabling them to attack twice per turn.

Gargantuan Zerg
Ultralisk
Hit Dice: 16d12
Initiative: +3
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 10 (-8 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 7
Base Attack/Grap: +24/+20
Attack: Gore +5 melee (2d8+4/20/x2), Trample
Full Attack: Gore +5 melee (2d8+6/1820/x3)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Scent
Special Qualities: Carapace, regeneration, persist, hive mind
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +0
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 16, Con 22, Int 0, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skills: Listen +12, Search +9, Spot +12, Survival +12
Feats: D
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, Pair, Pack (3-8)
Challenge Rating: 14
Treasure: None
Advancement: +16d12, Regenerate 1/Turn
The Ultralisk is 20 feet long and 10 feet tall, and it weighs about 10 tons. It takes up a four by two rectangle.
COMBAT
The Ultralisk’s tactics are determined by it’s commander. Typically, Ultralisks are used to attack in mass versus enemy encampments, or in small combat with powerful land enemies (such as Reavers and Seige Tanks).
Carapace: Ultralisks naturally has DR 3/Energy. Some cerebrates alter their Ultralisks in such a way as to make them more powerful in melee combat. Though altering their material in this way is expensive, it can be increased by one.
Regeneration: If an Ultralisk is harmed, it regenerates one hit points every other turn.
Persist: An Ultralisk’s massive damage threshhold is twice what is normally expected.
Hive Mind: An Ultralisk gets a +10 to it’s Will Saves. Furthermore, despite the fact that has no Intelligence, it moves and acts under the control of an intelligent being. If this contact is severed, the Ultralisk will randomly attack anyone and anything, including it’s allies.

Dr._Weird
2005-08-31, 07:45 PM
Wow, you work much faster than I do. I think the zergling is about half the size of a wolf though.

DarkLight140
2005-08-31, 07:55 PM
Hmmm... how about this? I made a few changes, some a bit major. The Base Attck/Grapple line was off, although I don't have much confidence in my corrections. I thought that our best bet was to come up with a block of 'Zerg traits', similar to how certain outsiders are grouped in their descriptions, which describes abilities common to (almost) all Zerg. Finally, I tried to name all bonuses, even if they were highly irregular types...



Zerg Type
A Zerg is an alien creature, generally a much-mutated and highly modified version of a lifeform encountered long ago by the Zerg race and then absorbed to become a member. All Zerg are under the control of mentally powerful Zerg entities from afar. Despite the lack of intelligence most Zerg have, they move and act under the direct control of an intelligent being located elsewhere, allowing them to utilize otherwise impossible coordination and tactics. If this contact is severed, a Zerg will revert to its animal level of intellect, typically becoming docile unless startled or hungry, in which cases it will attack anything which moves with unmatched desperation.
Features
A Zerg has the following features.
- d10 Hit Dice
- Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice.
- Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
- Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
A Zerg posesses the following traits (unless noted otherwise in the description of a particular kind).
- Low-light vision and darkvision out to 120 feet.
- Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
- +10 circumstance bonus to Will saves due to their hiveminded nature.
- Zerg are resistant to tempertures between -100 degrees C and 100 degrees C, and suffer no ill effects due to environment from any values within those extremes.
- Zerg may be modified by their controllers in various ways to grant them additional capabilities and increase their effectiveness.
- Proficient with no armor.
- Zerg eat, sleep, and breathe.
- Hive Mind (Ex)
All Zerg under the control of the same creature are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flatfooted, none of them are. No Zerg in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are.



Zergling
Medium Zerg
Hit Dice: 2d10+4 (15 HP)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grap: +2/+3
Attack: Claw +3 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +3 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Scent
Special Qualities: Fast Healing 1, Zerg traits
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +12
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats: Improved Initiative
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, Pack (2-12), Horde (13-60)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Advancement: Melee Attacks, Carapace, Adrenaline Glands, Burrow, Metabolic Boost

Zerglings are a little larger than a full-grown wolf.

COMBAT
The Zergling’s tactics are determined by its commander. Typically, Zerglings are used en masse against small enemy encampments, or versus infantry. The animal level of intellect Zerglings posess does not truly inhibit the level of tactics that they can use due to their Zerg traits.

MODIFICATIONS
Melee Attacks: The Zergling can be modified to tear their enemies apart more easily, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus to damage.

Carapace: The Zergling can be modified to resist damage more effectively, gaining DR 1/Energy.

Adrenaline Glands: Some Zerglings are genetically enhanced to attack even faster. Such zerglings may make an additional 2 claw attacks at no penalty whenever they make a full attack.

Burrow: A Zergling may dig a hole in which to hide from enemy fire as a full-round action. While within the hole, the Zergling gets a +20 circumstance bonus to Hide checks, and a +12 cover bonus to AC. While burrowed, a Zergling cannot see anything, but gains Tremorsense out to 50 feet.

Metabolic Boost: The Zergling gains a 10-foot enhancement bonus to its speed.

I'll rework the Ultralisk in a moment to fit a similar system. Also, they're both Zerg type and should therefore use the same Hit Dice.

Cyclone231
2005-08-31, 08:12 PM
I put Burrow in as an automatic ability rather than advancement because:
a) It's one of the first upgrades Zerg players grab.
b) It's one of the staple Zerg abilities, like add-ons for the Terran and "warping in" for the Protoss.

And whoopsiedaisy about the absurd BAB/Grap. I forgot to alter it from the Ultralisk.

DarkLight140
2005-08-31, 08:22 PM
I made a few slight changes above, including defining the Zerg type. That may demand additional editing, which will be carried out in a moment.

Burrow is a staple ability, yes, but in the same way that Cloaking is for Terrans. It's frequently used but fundamentally optional. I rarely if ever get Burrow when I play.

My take on the Ultralisk coming soon.

The Glyphstone
2005-08-31, 09:01 PM
Personally, I love burrow. It's great for concealing your strength in the earlygame, and for spying on resource outposts. Till they start using Comm Stations/Observers, that is.

DarkLight140
2005-08-31, 09:23 PM
Ultralisk
Gargantuan Zerg
Hit Dice: 16d10+112 (200 HP)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 23 (-4 size, +1 Dex, +16 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+28
Attack: Monomolecular Mandibles +25 melee (6d6+19 15-20/x3)
Full Attack: Monomolecular Mandibles +25 melee (6d6+19 15-20/x3)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Trample 4d6+19, Scent
Special Qualities: DR 3/-, Fast Healing 1, Persist, Augmented Critical, Zerg traits
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +11, Will +17
Abilities: Str 37, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 14
Skills: Listen +10, Spot +10
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Ability Focus [Trample], Improved Critical [Monomolecular Mandibles], Improved Natural Attack [Monomolecular Mandibles]
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, Pair, Pack (3-6)
Challenge Rating: 14
Treasure: None
Advancement: Melee Attacks, Carapace, Anabolic Synthesis, Chitinous Plating

The Ultralisk is 20 feet long and 10 feet tall, and it weighs about 10 tons. It is capable of absorbing incredible amounts of punishment, and it has the capability to quickly tear apart nearly anything with its massive, deadly blades.

COMBAT
The Ultralisk’s tactics are determined by its commander. Typically, Ultralisks are used to attack in mass versus enemy encampments while supported by a swarm of lesser Zerg, to overwhelm any targets giving smaller Zerg trouble, or in small combat with powerful land enemies. They are also often used to draw enemy fire away from other units.

Trample: Reflex half DC 33. The save DC is Strength-based.

Persist: An Ultralisk’s massive damage threshhold is twice what is normally expected.

Augmented Critical: An Ultralisk's mandibles have an edge that goes far beyond razor sharp. This grants them an impressive critical range and multiplier of 18-20/x3.

MODIFICATIONS

Melee Attacks: An Ultralisk with this modification gains an additional +3 enhancement bonus to its damage.

Carapace: Ultralisks naturally has DR 3/-. This can increase their armoring to DR 4/-.

Anabolic Synthesis: This allows an Ultralisk to drastically improve its movement speed, granting it a 10 foot enhancement bonus to movement speed.

Chitinous Plating: Some cerebrates alter their Ultralisks in such a way as to make them even more resistant to damage. This upgrade will increase an Ultralisk's DR by two points, usually to DR 5/-.

Thoughts? I think I calculated everything correctly, and this thing could rip apart almost anything in a coupl rounds. Average 40 damage per hit, or 33 damage to anything it can trample that fails its save- and that's an easy save to fail.

The Glyphstone
2005-08-31, 09:26 PM
Looks good. Maybe rename Monomolecular Mandibles (that's a mouthful! :D) to Augmented Critical, like that of other creatures with that ability.

DarkLight140
2005-08-31, 09:58 PM
Nah. I was referencing this (http://www.battle.net/scc/zerg/units/ultralisk.shtml), after all. ;)

Starbuck_II
2005-08-31, 10:06 PM
So are the Protoss sheilds going to be technology or natural?
I mean I think 1d12 + con modifier each level if natural. But unsure...not important:



Maybe Protoss:

Protoss Racial Traits
- Abilities:+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex: Protoss are physically stronger and tougher than humans, but there large bodies slow their reflexes and not too nimble.
- Medium: As medium sized creatures, protoss have no special bonuses due to their size.
- Speed: Protoss base land speed is 30 feet.
- Low-Light Vision: A protoss can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
- Powerful Build: The physical stature of protoss lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a protoss is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the protoss is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A protoss is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A protoss can use weapons designed for a creature one size category larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain the same of those of a creature his actual size. The benefit of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
- Luminous Eyes: Protoss eyes glow with psionic power. This gives them a +2 racial bonus to saving throws to resist light based blinding effects like from that of flash grenades. However, since the protoss cannot voluntarily supress the effect, they suffer a -2 penalty to Hide checks.
- Naturally Psionic: Protoss gain 1 bonus power point at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
- Psi-Like Abilities: 1/day - Force Screen, Precognition (Defensive), and Precognitionion (Offensive).
Manifester level is equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Level Adjustment: +1


Subrace: Dark Templar Racial Traits - Abilities:+2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Wis :
Dark Templar are agile but weaker than others their size, impatient, and overconfident.
- Medium: As medium sized creatures, dark Templar have no special bonuses due to their size.
- Speed: Protoss base land speed is 30 feet.
• +1 racial bonus on saving throws against powers, spells, and spell-like effects. Dark Templar have an innate resistance to psionics and magic.
- Darkvision Vision: A Dark templar can see out to 60 feet in black/white darkvision.
- Naturally Psionic: Dark Templar gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
Psi-Like Abilities: 3/day - Chameleon, Distract, Conceal Thoughts, and Concealing Amorpha.
Manifester level is equal to Hit Dice. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
- Level Adjustment: +1

DarkLight140
2005-08-31, 10:17 PM
I'd stay away from use-per-day abilities. The Protoss powers are more reliable- and differently oriented- than that. Drop the use/day abilities, and give them their racial awareness. And the Dex penalty is iffy.

On the Dark Templar: No Wis penalty. They're not impatient and overconfident; if anything, they're more collected and reflective than others of their race. The Strength penalty is enough. Give them the same natural psionic power point bonus as other Protoss- they have different powers, but not necessarily stronger ones. And as I'm against powers-per-day, give them Chameleon at will, maybe Conceal Thoughts continuously, and drop the others, then we're good.

Cyclone231
2005-08-31, 10:21 PM
I'd put in shields as Int or Cha score + (class bonus) * armor multiplier (normal armor goes at one, but great multipliers go up to two). Not something that increases to huge numbers at high levels, but still something.

The Glyphstone
2005-09-01, 05:57 AM
Nah. I was referencing this (http://www.battle.net/scc/zerg/units/ultralisk.shtml), after all. ;)

In that case, call its weapon "Monomolecular Mandibles" with the Augmented Critical rule. It's almost quoting the existing Augmented Critical rule word-for-word from the Ultralisk's D&D Counterpart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm).

DarkLight140
2005-09-01, 01:06 PM
Tch, changed the name.

For the Protoss shields: They should go up at high levels to quite a bit. Remember that certain units have just as many shield points as they do hit points, and everything has at least half as many or more. In fact, the lowest ratios of hp:shield are the Dark Templar at 80:40, the Carrier at 300:150, and the Observer at 40:20; the highest are Archon at 10:350, Dark Archon at 25:200, High Templar at 40:40, and Probe at 20:20.

Therefore, I would give them (Int bonus, minimum 1) * (class bonus, minimum 1) + amplifier bonus, where an amplifier is a device they use, typically built into armor. Class bonuses will probably be around +1 per 1-3 levels.

This means at level six or so of a high-psionics class, they'll probably have around 30 shield points if unarmored (which they probably will be), and at level six or so of a low-psionics class, they'll probably have no more than a handful.... BUT they'll be able to wear armor which amplifies their powers to give them an extra 20, 30, 50, or whatever shield points. Price the amplifiers appropriately, and make using them correctly or to their full potential a class ability of fighting/typically-low-Int classes. Thoughts?

Gorbash Kazdar
2005-09-01, 01:23 PM
Aren't the force fields tech for the Protoss, rather than an inherent ability? I'd simply have stronger shields be a gear award rather than something that automatically goes up with level.

As for Zerg, I'd say go with having most of the Zerg types (zerglings, hydralisks, etc) as monsters, with an Infested template as the option to play a Zerg PC (accounts for Kerrigan, Duran, while also leaving the more animalistic Zerg out of the equation for PCs).

DarkLight140
2005-09-01, 01:41 PM
Well... it's both innate and gear-based, according to this (http://www.battle.net/scc/protoss/bstrat.shtml).


Defensive energy shields protect all Protoss military units, and this provides perhaps their greatest advantage in battle. During the Aeon of Strife, Protoss warriors used focused Psionic energy to surround themselves in impregnable energy shields. Over time, Conclave scholars and Templar sages learned to reproduce the energy shield using induced psi-field generators, which allowed even the smallest robotic machine to surround itself with a protective field.

An Infested template is a good idea... someone should get around to that...

Gorbash Kazdar
2005-09-01, 02:13 PM
Didn't realize that about the inherent force fields... perhaps they should get Inertial Armor or Force Screen as an inherent power? Force Screen is probably better, since it can stack with armor. Or, they could have a more mild version - ie, as long as they remain psionically focused, they gain a +2 deflection bonus to AC, which can increase as they gain HD/levels. I dislike the idea of using shields as HP, since it makes Protoss much harder to kill than other PC races. OTOH, they probably are going to end up as a LA +1 race, which are notorious for being relatively easy to kill, so it's kind of a tossup.

DarkLight140
2005-09-01, 02:22 PM
See, I do like the idea of having shields as bonus HP. Heck, we could just give each of their classes two Hit Dice- a normal one and a shield one- and treat them as having two hit point totals, one modified by Con, one modified by Int.

I think at this point I've abandoned all will to make a Protoss of a given level roughly equivalent to a Terran of the same level. Why not just make the Protoss all-around stronger and give 'em an LA of +2 or +3? Protoss live for hundreds of years, so we can assume that just about all the ones seen in Starcraft are ECL 8 or so without assuming too much.

Cyclone231
2005-09-01, 02:27 PM
I made an Infested template and posted it a while back. With a few modifications, here it is again.
Hit Dice: As before.
Speed: Same as character
AC: The infested has a +5 to his AC due to natural armor. An infested cannot wear armor, unless it is custom made (unlikely) due to the altered physical shape.
Damage: An unarmed attack used by an infested has an extra +1 per size after Tiny. (+2 for Terran, +3 for Protoss)
Face/Reach: Same as character.
Special Attacks and Qualities: An infested retains all the characters special attacks and qualities. An infested character also gains Fast Healing 1
Saves: Same as character (unless modified by the Constitution bonus)
Abilities: An infested gains 2 Strength and 2 Constitution
Skills: Same as character
Feats: Same as character, but the character may choose to replace these feats for Zerg Special Abilities (such as Ensnare)
Advancement: By character class.

The Glyphstone
2005-09-01, 02:59 PM
Up the Str and Con bonuses to +2 each. 3e boosts stat modifiers in increments of +2 to avoid minimaxing.

Dr._Weird
2005-09-01, 06:59 PM
Alright, I finally got the email from Blizzard, and they said it's fine. So we can continue with this.

SpiderBrigade
2005-09-01, 11:59 PM
First of all let me say SC RPG is a great idea.

Template or even PrC (requiring psychic ability) sounds like the way to go for infested. It's also the only method that makes sense to me for zerg PCs. The various combat strains are mindless, and the intelligent cerebrates...well, they'd have an interesting ECL to say the least. The geomanceer from complete divine might be something to look at (drift=>zerg mutations).

Psionics: the way to go for spells/zerg abilities? I'd say yes because of the mana/power point similarities. However, I would suggest coming up with a much shorter set of powers, with appopriate class lists. Although...doesn't Kerrigan get psi storm at one point?

DarkLight140
2005-09-02, 12:54 AM
Yes, she does- the Infested Kerrigan unit has the Cloaking, Psi Storm, Ensnare, and unless I'm mistaken Consume abilities.

So, things we need to work on...

-A working and agreed-upon Protoss system for shields, racial stats, classes, and in general everything
-Statistics for more Zerg units
-Statistics for specific Terran weaponry, armor, and vehicles; cost might be good as well.
-A fairly comprehensive listing of available Powers, and possibly a somewhat reworked Psionics system.
-Anything else we can think of.

Don't do everything at once, guys. ::)

OOT-crazy
2005-09-02, 04:57 AM
why not as one of the mods very nicely if you can have a forum like the community world building forum - because this is just like that but possibly BIGGER!

Dallerdin
2005-09-02, 08:18 AM
Tried to do it largely in the spirit of the Zergling and Ultralisk entries.

Hydralisk
Large Zerg
Hit Dice: 5d10+25 (53 HP)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 15 ft (3 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (+2 dex, +8 natural, -1 size), touch 12, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+13
Attack: Arm Blades +8 melee (2d8+4)
Full Attack: 2 Arm Blades +8 melee (1d10+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Scent, Needle Spines
Special Qualities: Fast Healing 1, Zerg Traits
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +13
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 5
Skills: Hide 3, Spot 3
Feats: Improved Initiative, Improved Nat. Armor
Environments: Any
Organisation: Solitary, pack (2-5), patrol (6-10 plus 12-20 zerglings) or horde (11-25 plus 22-50 zerglings).
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Advancement: Muscular Augments, Grooved Spines, Carapace, Missile Attack, Burrow

Combat
The Hydralisk’s tactics are determined by its commander. Typically, Hydralisks are used in large numbers as ranged support for other Zerg or as independant and versatile fighters used for patrol duty, base defense, and assault. Hydralisks have also been observed setting up ambushes by burrowing into the ground and then emerging as the enemy is passing by.

Needle Spines: As a full-round action, a Hydralisk may open it's shoulder plates and fire one of it's hundreds of projectile spines of bone at an enemy. This is essentially a ranged attack that uses the Hydralisk's full ranged attack bonus and has a range increment of 20 ft. The spines deal 2d8 + dexterity modifier piercing damage and count as a natural weapon.

Modifications:
Muscular Augments: This modification allows a Hydralisk to move significantly faster, giving it a base land speed of 20 ft and a dexterity increase of +1.

Grooved Spines: Spines fired by a Hydralisk with this modification have a range increment of 40 ft rather than 20 ft.

Carapace: Some Hydralisks have particularly thick and hardened skin, giving them DR 2/energy.

Missile Attack: The Hydralisk's spines deal +3 damage a hit.

Burrow: A Hydralisk may dig a hole in which to hide from enemy fire as a full round action. While within the hole, the Hydralisk gains a +16 circumstance bonus to Hide checks and a +12 cover bonus to AC.

DarkLight140
2005-09-02, 02:05 PM
Hmmm... for the most part, I like it a lot. However, a few small things need correction or at least consideration.

Firstly, according to this (http://www.battle.net/scc/zerg/units/hydralisk.shtml), the Hydralisk gains only 1 damage from its Missile Attack upgrade, and 1 armor from its Carapace upgrade.

Its range is increased only 25% with the Grooved Spines upgrade; I'd give the Spines a 30 ft range increment, like most pistols unless I'm mistaken, and up it to 40 feet with the upgrade.

The attacking types in Starcraft are Concussive (S/M/L take 100%/50%/25%), Explosive (S/M/L take 50%/75%/100%) and Normal (everyone takes 100%). Or at least I think they are. What DR is effective against should be somehow based off this, but either way, Hydralisks should probably not be /energy- they're Medium. I don't know.

A 15 foot speed is incredibly slow. I'd give them 20 ft., going to 30 with upgrade, and the upgrade should give +2 Dex for standardization, not +1.

Speaking of Dex, up it and lose some Strength. Give the hydralisk a standard natural attack with its Spines, and make it the primary one. Taking a full-round action to fire seems somehow not in line with being primarily ranged.

You should probably leave the Hide bonus from Burrow the same as the Zergling's, unless you think we should lower that. As a Large creature, the hydralisk will take a size penalty to Hide anyway; we don't need to penalize it further.

ghostrunner
2005-09-02, 04:39 PM
Alright, I finally got the email from Blizzard, and they said it's fine. So we can continue with this.

Cool cool. I am almost done with a preliminary version of the terrans using d20 modern rules, including type of characters the base classes would work best as, advanced classes tailored to the SC universe, and vehicle stats. I'll post a PDF as soon as I get it done.

DarkLight140
2005-09-02, 04:44 PM
:o Argh... why a .pdf? Those are much larger than the text they contain and take forever to download... please just post whatever you've got to say here!

Jotoco
2005-09-02, 09:06 PM
Well, if I can't win my argument over the zerg being playable as PCs, ok... I can take it.

And I'm not going to just go out, you know. I'm going to join in this and help. Not like before when I was trying to force zergs into the game.

Something that I might add for all zergs with the burrow ability is tremorsense. Or else, how could they ambush anything?

I would give zerg darkvision too. I don't think they are going to nothing at night. If they didn't have darkvision they would habe been extinct a long time ago. (Or none of these worlds have nights...)

As for terrans... I'm starting to think they should have a negative level adjustment, as it's clear that both the protoss AND the infested zergs are at least +2 or more.

For protoss, I already said that I didn't like the power points thingy, but I think that giving abilties per day is not good either. So, power points is better. Perhaps all protoss should have a psionic power advancement, like they gain some natural powers as they grow in experience. Maybe adding psionic advancement for infested characters too.

For wealth guidelines, I think protoss and Terrans should get entirely separate economy. Like different cash and things. Maybe someone could trade in raw minerals and gas, but not a common money.

Forgot about the shield thing. I think this should be based off in class. Every class should have 2 hit dice. One for normal health and other for shield thingy. To compensate this fact both zerg and terran armors should get some nice damage reduction.

As said above, I think that every zerg should get some damage reduction (se above), and all terran armors shouls grant some DR too.

For now, I think it's all, latter I will come again.

Dr._Weird
2005-09-02, 10:41 PM
Great ideas, everybody, but I'm just wondering, how do we handle buildings? Should the Terran players be able to just hop in an SCV and make a bunker? I don't think the Protoss can open warp-gate things to warp the buildings in though.

Also, wasn't there actually a Hero Ultralisk in Brood War called the Tarrasque? Or something like it? Wouldn't it be funny if that was a D&D reference.

Jotoco
2005-09-02, 11:13 PM
Should the Terran players be able to just hop in an SCV and make a bunker? I don't think the Protoss can open warp-gate things to warp the buildings in though.

I think Terrans should be able to do this. They are so behind in the level adjustment thing that any advantage that we can grant then is welcome.
AND the amount of minerals to build (and time) is nothing too good. I'd think that "100 minerals" is something along "a ton of shinny heavy rock".
The protoss can not open warp gates out of nothing.
AND they take time as well. They take an amount of time equal to build Terran counterparts.

For the whole Terran thing, they should (and will) be able to just get in a tank and start shooting (given they have the skills.)

DarkLight140
2005-09-02, 11:45 PM
That's the thing- the Terrans can do anything that they're trained in, just like you'd expect. Sure, any random guy could hop in an SCV and try to build a bunker- it probably gives bonuses for being a great tool for it and might have in-suit access to schematics for buildings- but without a few skill ranks in knowing how to build things, you won't be able to.

Protoss can't open warp gates normally; they have specialized robotic constructs called Probes equipped with three things: A small shield generator, a particle-based cutting tool, and a set of warp beacons with activators. If they want to build buildings, have a Probe and have arranged in advance to have had their building constructed on the homeworld (or other base).

Neither should really be a problem; this is an RPG, really.

Right, Zergs need tremorsense and darkvision. Editing my zerg traits now to include darkvision and my Burrow description to include tremorsense when burrowed.

Giving the Terrans a level adjustment of -2 is actually a pretty good thought, though it does give them a significant HP advantage over the other races. We're probably better off just leaving them with a high level adjustment.

I'm glad you agree with my Shield-as-HD plan. We're pretty much giving everything DR already, including units from all three races, to simulate the way Armor works in Starcraft, where it's essentially DR. Perhaps we could do a /ballistic (normal), /energy (concusisve), /explosive (explosive) system, rather than making the DR /-?

Dallerdin
2005-09-03, 12:17 AM
The whole "building" thing is very RTS-oriented. In real life, not every bunker or command center would be shaped exactly the same and they take much more than a few minutes to build. A person could probably "hop into" an SCV, but that would not let them build things hardly at all quicker than normal.

I'd say good damage types would be "ballistic" (normal), "focused" (concussive), "explosive" (explosive), "psionic" (things like Psionic Storm and protoss abilities), and "energy" (for other stuff like getting electrocuted or maybe a few attacks like reaver scarabs can be reassigned to "energy") as basic suggestions.

Jotoco
2005-09-03, 12:44 AM
Giving the Terrans a level adjustment of -2 is actually a pretty good thought, though it does give them a significant HP advantage over the other races. We're probably better off just leaving them with a high level adjustment.

Came up with an idea. Zergs could just have a LOT of con, or better damage reduction OR (wich I like better) better regeneration to keep up with the shield bonus for protoss.
and Terrans' armors could have Hit Die, too. Just a though...

Nyrath
2005-09-03, 02:22 PM
I think shield HD should have a lower limit to them such as never less than half the maximum. It wouldn't seem right if you gained wildly fluctuating increases in shield raiting.

And I agree that terran armour should give at least some DR but I think they should mainly increase armour class (or defense as it's called in D20 modern).

DarkLight140
2005-09-03, 02:47 PM
I agree- just as Zerg we've written up have DR, but they mostly have natural armor as protection. The Ultralisk has half as many hit points as in Starcraft... it needs something to make up for it.

If we're trying to have somewhat stable shields, rather than giving each class a true HD, why not just say they gain half as many shield points as they do hit points (not including Con), plus their Int bonus, each time they level? That would leave the high-Int protoss with a lot of shields, low-Int protoss with some, and keep their shield in line with their hit points..

Dr._Weird
2005-09-03, 03:48 PM
Great shield idea, Darklight. I think we should go with that. Except I think the shields should be half the HP, plus twice the INT mod. But maybe this is just me being a regular Protoss player and trying to give them more bonuses.

Jotoco
2005-09-03, 04:14 PM
Okay, let's um it up for shields and armor and DR.

Terrans
Doesn't gain any additional Hit die or HP. BUT their armor grant then DR as well as AC. And I would like to introduce that the High Tech armor os the terrans are fully funcional against Touch Attacks.

Zerg
Doesn't gain any additional Hit die or HP. BUT gain ridiculous regen (we should up then a bit, double then at least) and some DR as well as natural AC. (the two others shouldn't be as high as terrans armor for balance things.)

Protoss
They have 2 HD. The sum of the dice can not go beyonf 14. (d6 + d8). BUT can be any HD. The physical HD aplies CON mod normally and the shield HD aply INT mod. I. E. A Protoss class could have d12 as physical hit die. But could only have d2 shield. Or d4 phys amd d10 shield, and so on. Protoss can't get access to DR and have AC compared to the zergs.

Well, as I put here I think it's balanced.
Terrans: A LOAD of DR and AC.
Zerg: Regen some DR and some AC.
Protoss: A LOAD of HP and some AC.

DO you guys like it?

DarkLight140
2005-09-03, 04:43 PM
Erm... I'd have summed it up as follows. Everyone is pretty much the same, really, but Zerg get fast healing and Protoss get shields, just like in Starcraft.

Terrans get normal armor, which can give them both armor AC bonuses, DR from armor, and they can have things (stimpacks or ComSat uplinks, for example) built into their armor. Pretty standard.

Zerg have no armor, but they do have substantial natural armor, natural DR, and natural Fast Healing- typically so that it takes them only a few minutes to get back to full health. Zerg usually have remarkable Con.

Protoss have fairly normal armor as well- it functions essentially the same way as Terran armor, but is usually lighter (cultural reasons) and is harder to put enhancements in for that reason. They also have shield points, which regenerate at about the same rate as Zerg fast healing and function as temporary hit points, equal to half their base (not including Con) hit points, plus their Int modifier times their HD. Archons and other psionic beings have special shield rules.

Jotoco
2005-09-03, 06:33 PM
Protoss have fairly normal armor as well- it functions essentially the same way as Terran armor, but is usually lighter (cultural reasons) and is harder to put enhancements in for that reason. They also have shield points, which regenerate at about the same rate as Zerg fast healing and function as temporary hit points, equal to half their base (not including Con) hit points, plus their Int modifier times their HD. Archons and other psionic beings have special shield rules.

Really, isn't it easier to just have my rule? The same rule will apply to everyone. So we don't need to open up special cases.

The other things are almost as I wrote then.
The amounts of DR and AC and such are just to balance things out. At the same CR terrans should get more DR and AC to compensate for the fact that they dont have regen or shield. AND the DR and AC problably will be for a vulture, goliath or whatever in high levels...

Starbuck_II
2005-09-03, 09:07 PM
Protoss have fairly normal armor as well- it functions essentially the same way as Terran armor, but is usually lighter (cultural reasons) and is harder to put enhancements in for that reason. They also have shield points, which regenerate at about the same rate as Zerg fast healing and function as temporary hit points, equal to half their base (not including Con) hit points, plus their Int modifier times their HD. Archons and other psionic beings have special shield rules.
Nope, shouldn't be harder to enchant. Just that they have no higher than light and meduim armor. I didn't find Protoss harder to raise Armor in game. (best Protoss armor is breastplate

Terrans can have heavy armor possible. (best armor is full plate)

Jotoco
2005-09-03, 09:33 PM
Terrans can have heavy armor possible. (best armor is full plate)
That's what I'm saying! Terran armor is better!

And about the whole shield thing? Half health half shield, or two different HD?

DarkLight140
2005-09-03, 09:58 PM
Erm... there is no enchanting things in Starcraft. Just that, when your armor is less bulky, it has less space to put stuff in. Therefore, standard Protoss armor, which is lighter than standard Terran armor, can't have as much stuff.

I think avoiding the concept of two separate HD is a good thing. Anyway, I realized we don't need to open up special cases in the single-HD system; Archons can by default be 10 HD creatures with Con 2, d6 Hit Dice, and Int around 40 to represent their incredible psionic power, for a net of 10 or 11 hit points to around 150-160 shield points. I don't recall anyone ever claiming that Archons weren't incredibly brilliant.

I know that what I wrote was almost the same as what you wrote; I outlined the entire thing to make it clear that the differences were minor but that one section of it was substantially different.

In my opinion, at the same CR a Terran should have about the same AC as a Zerg. His armor will provide him with just as much DR and AC, and the fact that he's capable of using an array of different weapons and vehicles while the Zerg is far more specialized more than compensates for a bit of fast healing.

Jotoco
2005-09-03, 10:33 PM
Erm... there is no enchanting things in Starcraft. Just that, when your armor is less bulky, it has less space to put stuff in. Therefore, standard Protoss armor, which is lighter than standard Terran armor, can't have as much stuff.

I think avoiding the concept of two separate HD is a good thing. Anyway, I realized we don't need to open up special cases in the single-HD system; Archons can by default be 10 HD creatures with Con 2, d6 Hit Dice, and Int around 40 to represent their incredible psionic power, for a net of 10 or 11 hit points to around 150-160 shield points. I don't recall anyone ever claiming that Archons weren't incredibly brilliant.

I know that what I wrote was almost the same as what you wrote; I outlined the entire thing to make it clear that the differences were minor but that one section of it was substantially different.

In my opinion, at the same CR a Terran should have about the same AC as a Zerg. His armor will provide him with just as much DR and AC, and the fact that he's capable of using an array of different weapons and vehicles while the Zerg is far more specialized more than compensates for a bit of fast healing.


I like the no enchant thing and agree with that.

I don't think putting HUGE amounts of int is good... maybe using the class modifier to shield points? Archon could be a 5times int class... OR use different HD things...
The same archon with 20 int and 10 Con and phys HD of d2 and shield HD of d10 = 10 - 20 phys HP and 60 - 150 shield HP. Isn't it easier? For me it is. But I think we should get another opinion. Do you realize we are the only ones debatting over this?

ISn't the whole vehicle and vast array of equipment of the Terran giving that said little bonus to AC, or perhaps, the vehicles HP and hardness, and such... Almost the same thing as I wrote.
And yes our ideas are almost the same, we just need to get to work instead of debating.

DarkLight140
2005-09-03, 11:00 PM
Esentially, aside from the HD thing, I see this difference. You said,

At the same CR terrans should get more DR and AC to compensate for the fact that they dont have regen or shield.

I disagree; I think their flexibility compensates for it already and they should have comparable but not superior AC and DR. My point was that a CR 5 Terran, when compared to a CR 5 Zerg (probably only the Hydralisk will be at CR 5), could use a Goliath, a Tank, a Marine Combat Suit, a Firebat Combat Suit, operate a ComSat Station, utilize a Bunker, or any of a dozen other things. If he knows an attack is coming, he can do any of those... none of which will boost his AC to exceed or potentially to even match the Hydralisk's, but his flexibility gives him a huge tactical advantage.

If a Zerg knows some Terrans will attack, he can wait, burrow and wait, try to flank, or run away. A Terran can do any of those (except burrow) while armed in a dozen different ways. They don't need AC and DR boosts above the Zerg's to top it off- a fully equipped Terran should be roughly equal in terms of defensive ability, with the Zerg having the advantage in head-on combat.


Yeah, I know we're the only ones talking and we mostly agree. I just like talking and hate actual work, so I'm willfully squandering time like this. 8)

Nyrath
2005-09-04, 07:06 AM
Maybe it should be not only int but also wis or cha for shields?

Dr._Weird
2005-09-04, 08:59 PM
I don't think cha has anything to do with shields, but wis could possibly work...

Ayana
2005-09-05, 03:16 AM
Wouldn't there be a disparity in wealth of Terrans and Protoss adventurers in the same team if the Terrans have to rely on armor and other gear to be balanced with the Protoss's innate powers?

Spuddly
2005-09-05, 04:20 AM
Just read the entire thread, and I have these thoughts:

Only three races:
Terran, Protoss, and Infested Terran.

Terran traits:
Access to many classes, such as medic, infantryman, pilot, driver, machinist, ghost etc.

LOTS of skill points– using vehicles, weapons and the like should be relatively easy for the terran. Terrans lack the psychic ability to use Protoss weapons, armor and vehicles

Easy to get equipment, most natural deficiencies (such as being soft and squishy) made up for with technology. Biosuits (like the ones marines wear) should be easy for terrans to get ahold of and use, and most terran classes should have proficiencies in it.

Protoss traits:
Natural shields (which may be augmented with toss tech) absorb some damage (DR) and add a little to AC. Shields work on a point system, melee oriented toss classes get more shielding

Protoss are frail and physically weak. If they do not augment their abilities with their psychic powers, they're weaker than a terran. (Watch the starcraft videos and see how frail the things are)

Limited access to weapons and armor– dependence on class for how battle hearty they are

Classes– Dark Templar (like a rogue without skill points), High Templar (wizard), Zealot (fighter/barbarian/soulknife). Remember, High Templar were incredibly frail in the game. They had only 40 shields, no armor, no attack and a smidgeon of HP

Protoss can not use terran weapons and have trouble using terran vehicles

Infested Terrans:
Naturally more durable than terrans, can use some terran weapons and armor, as well as some proficiencies with vehicles

-4 to charisma, +2 str, +2 dex

dark vision, burrowing and tremorsense are natural abilities

Classes include marine like infrantry, melee fighter. The class dictates how an Infested progresses. Melee infested have less skill points and cannot operate weapons because too much chitinous bulk prevents them from doing so. Infrantry type gain more skill points and weapon prof., but dont get natural AC or HP bonuses

------------------

Preventing munchkinry won't be too hard, as race can greatly restrict which classes you have access to. This prevents shameless min/maxing.

I'd give zerg immunity from weather, no need to breathe, and immunity to pressure changes, and most of them a climb/burrow speed. Progression for zerg NPCs would be based off how the hive evolved rather than training. For instance, an old hive would have fast, brutal hydras, while a brand new one may only have slow hydras without much range.

Dr._Weird
2005-09-05, 11:43 AM
Protoss are frail and physically weak
Actually, a lot of the Protoss had more HP then the Terrans even when their shields were down.
And also, should Protoss get a "second life"? (Dragoons)

Premier
2005-09-05, 11:53 AM
Actually, a lot of the Protoss had more HP then the Terrans even when their shields were down.

Just as a note, Protoss also had a significant amount of cybernetic grafting on their bodies, which looked very much like it would also serve as armour.

Nyrath
2005-09-05, 12:04 PM
Just which of the movies show them as weaker than Terrans? They're a warrior race since time immemorial.

Spuddly
2005-09-05, 12:43 PM
Just which of the movies show them as weaker than Terrans? They're a warrior race since time immemorial.

The last movie in the Protoss campaigns of Brood War. They're tall and skinny. They look more like marathon runners than fighters.

You know, zealots took up twice as much room in a dropship than a marine.

DarkLight140
2005-09-05, 03:03 PM
They're tall and thin, yes, but their units not trained for combat have as many hit points as the standard Terran trooper on the front lines, and shields to top it off. Without psychic powers- say, just after he was hit by an EMP- a Zealot can still take out a pair of Marines. The standard Terran ideas of how body structure relates to strength clearly do not apply.

I like our previous design ideas, Spuddly, and am inclined to discount your post.

ghostrunner
2005-09-05, 03:53 PM
Wouldn't there be a disparity in wealth of Terrans and Protoss adventurers in the same team if the Terrans have to rely on armor and other gear to be balanced with the Protoss's innate powers?
It's similar to the situation of wizards vs. fighters in standard D&D. CRs and module difficulty ratings are figured based on the wealth-by-level ratios and thus assume that a fighter is going to have all sorts of cool gear. A lvl20 fighter with ordinary equipment will get demolished by a lower level fighter with better equipment. I think that's the whole concept of the humans, both evolutionarily and in game terms: we're not a physically imposing species, but our intellect, adapatability, and devastating firepower make up for our lack of dangerous teeth, claws, poison, flight, psionics, and whatever else.


And also, should Protoss get a "second life"? (Dragoons)
I think it should certainly be possible, but I assume the body of the dead protoss in question would have to be preserved by his comrades somehow in order to stick him into the dragoon casing.

Dr._Weird
2005-09-05, 04:08 PM
Why don't we say the body is good to become a dragoon for 2 hours after death, after then the soul isn't really in there anymore.

Nyrath
2005-09-05, 04:10 PM
Say two days since Fenix managed to beome one even after his base fell to a zerg attack. Maybe it should require a fortitude save after 2 hours (or whatever) have passed and each hour afterwards.

Spuddly
2005-09-05, 04:51 PM
They're tall and thin, yes, but their units not trained for combat have as many hit points as the standard Terran trooper on the front lines, and shields to top it off. Without psychic powers- say, just after he was hit by an EMP- a Zealot can still take out a pair of Marines. The standard Terran ideas of how body structure relates to strength clearly do not apply.

I like our previous design ideas, Spuddly, and am inclined to discount your post.
So you disagree with all my post or just part of it?

ghostrunner
2005-09-08, 01:11 AM
I've got a big chunk of work done on the terrans. Tell me what you think.
SCd20-01.rtf (http://www.thefilehut.com/userfiles/ghostrunner/StarCraft/SCd20-01.rtf)
SCd20-01.pdf (http://www.thefilehut.com/userfiles/ghostrunner/StarCraft/SCd20-01.pdf)

I would have just posted it all as a regular post, but I have several tabels and whatnot in the document. Plus, the PDF has the nifty StarCraft-font title.

Forte
2005-09-08, 01:41 AM
Because of this thread, I've once again broken out my old files and started working on them again.

This is what I'm using for the Terrans and Protoss. Feel free to use any of it, but give credit. Do not simply copy it, make minor changes, and then pass it off as your own (Starbuck II).

Terran characters possess the following racial traits.
— Same as those found in the Player's Handbook except as noted below.
— +2 any ability score, +2 any other ability score. Terrans have no consistant racial modifiers, but every terran has some innate talent.
— The Human Spirit: Terrans recieve a +2 racial bonus to Will saves.

Before you say anything about changing the Terrans, I did it to bring them more in line with the protoss in terms of power. With the racial abilities and the castes given the protoss, they would have a level adjustment of +1 at least. I felt that these changes brought the Terrans on par with the protoss so as to allow level 1 terran PC's to play alonside level 1 protoss PC's.

Protoss characters possess the following racial traits.
— +2 Str, -2 Wis, -2 Cha: Protoss are physically stronger than humans but have an extremely dogmatic culture that tends to make them less perceptive to the world around them and the social structures of other races.
— Medium: As medium sized creatures, protoss have no special bonuses due to their size.
— Protoss base land speed is 40 feet.
— Low-Light Vision: A protoss can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
— Powerful Build: The physical stature of protoss lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a protoss is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the protoss is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A protoss is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A protoss can use weapons designed for a creature one size category larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain the same of those of a creature his actual size. The benefit of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
— Luminous Eyes: Protoss eyes glow with psionic power. This gives them a +2 racial bonus to saving throws to resist light based blinding effects like from that of flash grenades. However, since the protoss cannot voluntarily supress the effect, they suffer a -2 penatly to Hide checks.
— Naturaly Psionic: Protoss gain 1 bonus power point at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.

Terrans follow the basic and advanced class rules set forth in D20 Modern while the protoss follow standard 20 level class progressions and use the multiclass experience penalty rules found in the 3.5 SRD.

The reasons behind this are two-fold: 1) it gives the terrans and protoss a different "feel". 2) It shows the supreme adaptability of the terrans and the stubborn and unyielding philosophies of the protoss.

As per the D20 Modern rules, terrans will choose a starting occupation at creation. The protoss have a similar list of Castes in place of starting occupations.

Templar:
Skills: Choose two of the following skills as permanent class skills. If that skill is already a class skill, you gain a +1 competance bonus on that skill. Intimidate, Knowledge (Tactics), Listen, Navigate, Pilot, Psicraft, Spot, Survival, Treat Injury.
Psi-like abilities: Choose two of the following powers as a psi-like ability usable 3 times per day. Caster level is equal to character level and save DCs are Charisma based. Burst, Catfall, Demoralize, Force Screen, Mind Thrust, Precognition (Defensive), Precognition (Offensive), Vigor.

Judicator:
Skills: Choose one of the following skills as permanent class skills. If that skill is already a class skill, you gain a +1 competance bonus on that skill. Bluff, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Investigate, Gather Information, Knowledge (all knowledge skills), Sense Motive.
Psi-like abilities: Choose three of the following powers as a psi-like ability usable 3 times per day. Caster level is equal to character level and save DCs are Charisma based. Attraction, Call to Mind, Conceal Thoughts, Detect Teleportation, Empathy, Mindlink, Missive, Sense Link, Synthesete, Telempathic Projection.

Kalai:
Skills: Choose five of the following skills as permanent class skills, two of which must be a Craft or Perform skill. If that skill is already a class skill, you gain a +1 competance bonus on that skill. Computer Use, Concentration, Craft (any), Decipher Script, Disable Device, Handle Animal, Perform (any), Repair, Research, Survival, Treat Injury.
Psi-like abilities: Choose one of the following powers as a psi-like ability usable 3 times per day. Caster level is equal to character level and save DCs are Charisma based. Astral Construct, Control Object, Detect Psionics, Far Hand, Float, Matter Agitation, Minor Creation (Psionic).

Dark Templar:
Skills: Choose one of the following skills as permanent class skills. If that skill is already a class skill, you gain a +1 competance bonus on that skill. Balance, Bluff, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (History, Theology and Philosophy), Listen, Move Silently, Navigate, Pilot, Psicraft, Spot, Survival, Treat Injury.
Psi-like abilities: Choose two of the following powers as a psi-like ability usable 3 times per day. Caster level is equal to character level and save DCs are Charisma based. Aversion, Burst, Catfall, Conceal Thoughts, Concealing Amorpha, Chameleon, Create Sound, Daze (Psionic), Empty Mind, Force Screen, Thought Shield, Vigor.

The wealth system from D20 Modern remains intact. The terrans use good 'ol cliche credits while the protoss use Energy Units (EU). EU are a measurment of psionic energy, usually stored in crystals, and serves as not only currency, but as power to certain protoss gadgets. The wealth bonuses for both classes follow all the standard rules, though when trading between races (or rather currencies) the character's wealth bonus is treated as half its actual value rounded down. It's of course possible for a protoss to build a credit wealth as is it possible for a terran to build an EU wealth. However, most NPC's are not going to be doing this.

As I finish (or rather update) more of my old work, I'll post it for you. Use it as you will, just don't try to pass off someone else's ideas as your own.

ghostrunner
2005-09-12, 05:58 PM
Is anyone still working on this? I'm almost finished with a terran update that I need balancing, but I this thread hasn't gotten a lot of play in the last week.

DarkLight140
2005-09-13, 12:27 AM
True. In a desperate attempt at recovery of momentum, I give you:


Lurker
Large Zerg
Hit Dice: 6d10+30 (63 HP)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft (3 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+9 natural, -1 size), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+15
Attack: None
Full Attack: None
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Scent, Subterranean Spines
Special Qualities: Fast Healing 1, DR 1/-, Zerg Traits, Burrow
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +13
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 5
Skills: Hide +13
Feats: Stealthy, Ability Focus(Subterranean Spines), Skill Focus (Hide)
Environments: Any
Organisation: Solitary, pair, nest (3-12), or ambush (5-8 plus 6-12 hydralisks and 18-36 zerglings).
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Advancement: Carapace, Missile Attack

Lurkers are sprawling, crablike creatures that creep along the ground on long, clawed legs. They are infamous for their near-undetectability and deadly spines, which emerge from the ground to impale those above them, then retract back into the ground. Common rumors say that the spines are part of the creature itself, but only someone who hass done a dissection of one would really know.

COMBAT
The Lurker’s tactics are determined by its commander. They virtually always burrow underground before deployment, as they have a legendary ability to hide themselves in spite of their size. Typically, Lurkers are used as solitary or paired deathtraps for patrols or small forces, but they are sometimes also deployed in large groups to decimate an advance with massive bolts from their spines, often to soften up the enemy before they are hit by an ambushing wave of hydralisks and zerglings. Lurkers are also frequently found burrowed within Zerg encampments. The animal level of intellect Lurkers posess does not truly inhibit the level of tactics that they can use due to their Zerg traits.

Subterranean Spines: As a full-round action, the Lurker can blast forth a 50-foot line of spines 10 feet wide from a point at which it is burrowed. At its option, these spines may appear to originate from up to 20 feet down the line and do not have to utilize the full range. Any creature or object in the area of these spines take 6d6 damage (Reflex DC 20 half). The save DC is based on Strength.

Burrow: A Lurker may dig a hole in which to hide from enemy fire as a full-round action. While within the hole, the Lurker gets a +20 circumstance bonus to Hide checks, and a +12 cover bonus to AC. While burrowed, a Lurker cannot see anything, but gains Tremorsense out to 100 feet.

MODIFICATIONS
Melee Attacks: The Lurker's spines can be modified to smoothly blast through armor and flesh, gaining a +2 enhancement bonus to damage.

Carapace: The Lurker can be modified to resist damage more effectively, increasing their DR to 2/-.

Now, the Lurker has been built around the concept that it's not tough to kill, but it is tough to live long enough to find- or even to find at all. With a +33 bonus to Hide checks, no one will be seeing the Lurker- they'll be spraying the area they pray it's burrowed in with bullets and explosives while keeping apart from each other, hoping that they can kill it before it manages to get them. I gave them a bit more flexibility in attacking to help with the hiding part.

Spuddly
2005-09-13, 12:32 AM
I'd give it a move speed of 40– lurkers were speedy buggers. Faster than marines, I believe.

DarkLight140
2005-09-13, 12:54 AM
Done. For reference, I'll repost hydralisks with a couple minor alterations:


Hydralisk
Large Zerg
Hit Dice: 5d10+25 (53 HP)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 20 ft (3 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (+2 dex, +8 natural, -1 size), touch 12, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+13
Attack: Needle Spines +9 ranged (2d8+2); Arm Blades +2 melee (2d6+2)
Full Attack: Needle Spines +9 ranged (2d8+2) or 2 Arm Blades +2 melee (2d6+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Scent, Needle Spines
Special Qualities: Fast Healing 1, Zerg Traits
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +13
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 5
Skills: Spot +10
Feats: Improved Initiative, Improved Nat. Armor
Environments: Any
Organisation: Solitary, pack (2-5), patrol (6-10 plus 12-20 zerglings) or horde (11-25 plus 22-50 zerglings).
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Advancement: Muscular Augments, Grooved Spines, Carapace, Missile Attack, Burrow

Combat
The Hydralisk’s tactics are determined by its commander. Typically, Hydralisks are used in large numbers as ranged support for other Zerg or as independant and versatile fighters used for patrol duty, base defense, and assault. Hydralisks have also been observed setting up ambushes by burrowing into the ground and then emerging as the enemy is passing by.

Needle Spines: A Hydralisk can open it's shoulder plates and fire one of its hundreds of bone spines at an enemy. This attack has a range increment of 30 ft.

Modifications:
Muscular Augments: This modification allows a Hydralisk to move significantly faster, giving it a base land speed of 30 ft and a dexterity increase of +2.

Grooved Spines: Spines fired by a Hydralisk with this modification have a range increment of 40 ft rather than 30 ft.

Carapace: Some Hydralisks have particularly thick and hardened skin, giving them DR 1/-.

Missile Attack: The Hydralisk's spines deal +1 damage a hit.

Burrow: A Hydralisk may dig a hole in which to hide from enemy fire as a full round action. While within the hole, the Hydralisk gains a +20 circumstance bonus to Hide checks and a +12 cover bonus to AC. While burrowed, a Hydralisk cannot see anything, but gains Tremorsense out to 100 feet.

The Glyphstone
2005-09-13, 05:46 AM
For the Lurker, maybe rewrite the Spines attack to dealing 6d6 damage, Reflex save for half, like a lot of similar spells/abilities. And maybe note that it doesn't affect airborne creatures (just to clear up a potential loophole by an unscrupulous player/drunken DM).

Spuddly
2005-09-13, 10:34 AM
So far looks good.

ninja_penguin
2005-09-13, 01:13 PM
Hey, I read through this and I'd be willing to help out on Zerg and Protoss units (my experience with d20 modern and therefore the Terran works is sadly limited).

A couple of questions for ideas that I could work on that I wanted to clear up:

1. Exactly how are protoss shields determined? I know that they're psionic shields, and I thought I saw something about it being based off of their mental stats (int, wis, cha).

2. How are we going to do Protoss classes? I figured that you can have the following as base classes:
Infantry:
-Zealot
-Dark Templar
-High Templar
-probe?? (I'm just trying to think of everything. I assume that we're moving a tad from the RTS version, so maybe probes should just be statted as a creature with HD, not a class)

- A side note here: Should the damage done by the blades of a Zealot and Dark templar be static, increase with level, or have a couple of levels where they increase it's damage? (And are Zealots counted as dual wielding?)

Prestige classes (infantry):
-Dragoon
-Dark Archon
-Archon

[Speaking of which, how are we going to handle special abilities. Power points, such as psions?]

Vehicles I'm not sure how you'd do, given that protoss vehicles are robotic in design. (stat them out, like the zerg?)

I was thinking that maybe you could make Scouts and Corsairs as base classes, with Arbiters and Carriers as 'flying' prestige classes.

Zerg related stufs:

1. We should probably make a Cerebrate, shouldn't we? I mean, that way there is a semi-present entity that controls a brood of zerg. It should probably have something like tremorsense, regeneration with a vulnerability to Dark Templar attacks, and should automatically imprint the Hivemind attribute on all Zerg within it's sphere of influence. Also, infested Terrans that are not under the sway of Overmind should be forced to roll will saves to avoid being reabsorbed into the hive. (If you remember, Kerrigan manipulated the Protoss into taking out the new fledgling overmind before it could dominate her.)

2. As a side note to the infested types, I'm wondering if they should be able to imprint their own will on the zerg? If you remember, in the same mission where you (as Protoss) attack the new overmind, Kerrigan dominates a small swarm of zerg for you to use. [Although in the Brood Wars Zerg campaign, it appears that Kerrigan still requires a cerebrate to maintain control over a larger amount of zerg, because she appears to have seperated one from the collective to do her bidding]. Maybe some sort of ability to dominate zerg similar to some undeads dominating spawn.

3. Are we going to touch the zerg that mutate with a 10-foot pole, or just stat them out and be happy? (i.e. dealing with hydralisks turning into Lurkers, Mutalisks turning into Guardians and devourers, etc.)

Let me know what has merit, and I'll start working on stuff.

Nyrath
2005-09-13, 02:00 PM
Zealots dual wield in the game so it should certainly be possibly here.

DarkLight140
2005-09-13, 02:03 PM
Right... I meant to do half damage. My bad. And I'll note the no-air thing.


To answer questions:
At the moment, we're still debating the proper shield system. The ideas being thrown around... Giving all Protoss classes two Hit Dice, one with normal HP modified by Con and one with shield HP modified by Int. Giving all Protoss half their hit points, plus Int bonus per HD of shields. Making shields entirely based on items. No consensus yet.

One of the ideas was to use D&D base classes- soulknife, psion, rogue- but I'd really rather have specially designed classes such as you named. That's a lot of extra work, though. And I'd generalize them into Warrior, Psionicist, Pilot, and Dark Templar. Protoss mechanical units such as Probes and Reavers are constucts and will be treated as such, with static statistics of their own. A modified power point system should work for psi powers; Archons and Dark Archons can be dealt with later.

The d20 Future rules will be used for Protoss vehicles, including Dragoons and all spaceships.


The Zerg Cerebrate doesn't really need design until after the units are done. I mean, you don't find 'em on every base, after all. And all Zerg already have Hive Mind.

If you care to write up a complete proposed Infested template, then feel free.

The zerg that mutate are probably going to have their mutation abilities ignored but implied. That is, if you give them a day or two they might mutate but it's not relevant over the course of a single operation and therefore nees no write-up.

Annarrkkii
2005-09-13, 07:36 PM
On the topic of shields, suppose we gave the Protoss the ability to convert Power Points into temporary hitpoints? Say that they could trade them on a 1:1 basis. Then there could be an item called a Shield Crystal which gives the Protoss bonus Power Points that could be used only to convert into shields. And a Shield Amplifier, which increased the Power Point:Temporary Hitpoint ration to 2:3 or something?

Just a sudden thought.

ninja_penguin
2005-09-14, 03:41 PM
Just another quick question, for the sake of the skills that I'm going to be adding for each class. Are we going to use that caste spiel that was posted on the previous pages of threads?

Spuddly
2005-09-14, 04:47 PM
Zerg should be resistant or immune to radiation, heat and cold. They can survive the extremes of space, Char, that one planet that was all icy and that other planet that was nuked.

Zerg should also be strongly resistant to pressure and gravitational changes (the gravitationless vacuum of space compared to inhabiting all kinds of planets).

And they probably dont need to breathe much, either.

DarkLight140
2005-09-14, 06:32 PM
I think we're treating the Protoss as one race. Caste could be flavor or slight differences, or background like in d20 Modern, but it doesn't change innate racial characteristics.

Shield-boosting items are definitely on the table, but we should probably come up with a definite, working shield system before making addons to it.

I don't think all Zerg can survive in space- only the flight-capable ones. Hydralisks and whatnot have to be carried around in Overlords through space, unless I'm mistaken, which is a possibility. However, resistant to extremes of temperture is something they all seems to share, so I'll add it to traits. I don't see any real evidence that being resistant to radiation isn't space-Zerg only, either, so that doesn't go in unless you can name some.

Spuddly
2005-09-14, 07:27 PM
Space platforms. Hydralisks, zerglings, ultralisks– all survived on space platforms.

Radiation comes in many flavors, but basically radiation damages tissue by high speed particles colliding with our particles.

In the case of nuclear radiation, there are lots of spare neutrons flying around colliding with our molecules and disrupting them.

Recall that you could use nuclear devices in Starcraft without any risk from radiation. One could make the argument that their nukes didn't cause radiation. However, in one Brood War Terran campaign, you were warned that since a planet had already been ruined with nukes (it was a desert tileset), Emperor Minsk would have no problems using nukes himself.

Then there is cosmic radiation. In space, one is bombarded with elctormagnetic radition with frequencies from ultraviolet up to gamma.
There are even special, super accelerated particles flying about that can cause serious radiation problems among astronauts. Luckily, these highspeed particles are deflected by earth's magnetic field.

One problem facing human exploration of Mars is Mars' lack of a magnetic field, due to its dead core.

DarkLight140
2005-09-14, 09:38 PM
Space platforms- so did Terrans and Protoss of all sorts, though; I somehow don't think Ghosts in those slim outfits had radiation suits on. And I know the Zealots didn't.

And once again, Mengsk made his headquarters on that planet, did he not? Would he really make his HQ someplace where all his minions would have to suit up all the time to survive? I'd argue no; that planet was radiation-low at most.

Forte
2005-09-15, 01:41 AM
Ok, I've writen seven classes for the protoss so far. I'd rather put them up as files rather than reprint them here. I just need someone to host them.

Just to let you know, I didn't copy units like most of you seem to be stuck on. These are the classes that I'm using for myself.

Name of class (associated caste) - summary

Knight (Templar) - The classic defender of Auir and the Khala. Based heavily on the Zealot and the Soulknife.

Erudite (Templar) - Copied almost exactly from the Psion class and based loosly on the High Templar.

Scout (Templar) - A ranger-esque class based around exploration and ranged combat.

Shaper (Khalai) - A crafter of psionic artifacts. Based on the Atificer class.

Overseer (Judicator) - A class based on inspiring and directing others.

Delver (Judicator) - A class built around exploring the minds of enemies and manipulating the psionic energies of others.

Stalker (Dark Templar) - A class based on stealth and assassination.

I'm working on three classes that fill three different roles for each caste type. However, I don't plan on limiting the player's choices based on caste.

ninja_penguin
2005-09-15, 09:14 AM
Hrm, my current workings for classes were:

Warrior[Zealot] - Intended caste of Templar and/or Judicator

Pilot[guy who flies stuff, i.e. the scout, carrier, corsair, and Arbiter] - Intended caste Judicator and/or Kalai (and maybe Dark Templar? I don't know which place the corsair pilot was supposed to be from, but he was pretty nutty)

High one- [the high templar, basically] - Intended caste of any non dark-templar.

Dark templar [Dark Templar] - obvious choice of the dark templar caste.

Two more things:

1. How powerful are we allowed to make the psi-blades? I know that in D20 modern guns are tossing around quite the impressive damage dice, and zealots and Dark Templar are capable of ripping apart vehicles when they're really going at it. I was thinking about making psi-blade progression like a monk's unarmed damage progression as they level up, with extra benefits. (i.e. Zealots gain ambidexterity, dual strike, and other things for dual wielding, and Dark Templar would uh, gain something for either stealth, or some sort of other sneak-attack esque style thing)

2. What if each protoss class has both a HD that is based off of CON, and a shield die that is based off of a mental stat? For instance, I can see the following for which mental stat to use:

Warrior - Charisma (I mean, zealots are zealous. They never exactly ranked super-high on my bright list, but they definately have that force of personality thing going)

High one and/or Pilot - Intelligence. These guys probably need to be more on the ball then the others, especially with the High Templar's mind-warping stuff.

Dark Templar - Wisdom or Charisma. Not sure which one you want to go with, but the Dark Templar were always kind of off-base with the general protoss race.

Spuddly
2005-09-15, 11:02 AM
Space platforms- so did Terrans and Protoss of all sorts, though; I somehow don't think Ghosts in those slim outfits had radiation suits on. And I know the Zealots didn't.

And once again, Mengsk made his headquarters on that planet, did he not? Would he really make his HQ someplace where all his minions would have to suit up all the time to survive? I'd argue no; that planet was radiation-low at most.

None of that answers the question of cosmic radiation. Besides, this is the future. It stands to reason that terrans have found ways to shield themselves from radiation, such as having shielding built right into their combat suits.

Sure Minsk set his base up on the planet. So what. They probably didn't go out much, at least not without protective gear.

Protoss aren't naked. They wear armor (zealots come with 2 armor when built, pictures of them show breathing apparatus and the like) as well as having psi shields. If a psi shield can keep a bullet out, perhaps it can keep radiation out?

But zerg have neither psi shields nor combat suits. It seems pretty reasonable to me that they have a naturally strong resistance for radiation, heat and cold.

ninja_penguin
2005-09-15, 11:08 AM
maybe zerg traits should just allow them to be able to ignore background radiation? Otherwise they'll have both DR and energy resistance going on.

Another protoss thought, mostly on the dark templar (and to a lesser extent, the observers and other cloaking types). How are we going to handle cloaking, and the protoss perma-cloaks? Is it going to be some sort of super bonus to hide, or some sort of invisibility that doesn't go away when you attack?

Edit- Also, where could I find those psi powers? I admit that psionics is my weak point.

Spuddly
2005-09-15, 11:27 AM
maybe zerg traits should just allow them to be able to ignore background radiation? Otherwise they'll have both DR and energy resistance going on.
That sounds like the way to do it. Part of zerg traits could be ignoring the deleterious effects of space on an unarmored organism.


I think psi blades are not just technology, but the protoss also has to manifest the thing, so warriors being a charisma based class makes sense. The -2 charisma mod doesn't, however, make sense. Force of personality and how you get along with other races seems to mixing apples and... cats. Two completely different things. If a protoss gets along with humans, he probably doesn't get along too well with other protoss. But this charisma discussion is out of place.

Maybe psi blades could be a d6 damage progression the same as a rogues, but with damage being a charisma modifier rather than strength.

Maybe Protoss racial ability mods should be -2 wis +2 cha without a str mod? Since Protoss have all those psi abilities, perhaps make most of what they can do charisma based, rather than str based as previously suggested?

ninja_penguin
2005-09-15, 11:50 AM
I think psi blades are not just technology, but the protoss also has to manifest the thing, so warriors being a charisma based class makes sense. [SNIP!]
Maybe psi blades could be a d6 damage progression the same as a rogues, but with damage being a charisma modifier rather than strength.

Maybe Protoss racial ability mods should be -2 wis +2 cha without a str mod? Since Protoss have all those psi abilities, perhaps make most of what they can do charisma based, rather than str based as previously suggested?


1. Charisma based bonuses on blades might work. We might need to occasioanlly quick play some fights or quickie games to playtest this stuff.

2. by d6 progression do you mean having something where it's like psiblades +Xd6 like rougues, except not having to flank/sneak attack? That might work, except I'm coming to this division.

The zealot:
2 blades. Faster attacks. Lower individual damage then a dark templar.

Dark Templar:
One blade. Slower attack. A LOT OF DAMAGE.

So I'm trying to make the Dark Templar blade more damging to begin with, but the zealots will have a higher BaB and feats granted like two weapon fighting, ambidexterity, etc. I just want to know how strong we can make Dark Templar Blades, given that in the game, they're slaughtering zerglings and marines in one hit. And I don't want to make it a sneak attack because as soon as a detector come by, you're attacking power just got gimped.

And maybe -2 Wis +2 Cha might work. I mean, it seems to me that Tassadar would probably be a good bluffer and diplomacy type. Also, it might work if we keep the 'Powerful build' ability, Zealots would still be rather strong, but without a high STR score.

Spuddly
2005-09-15, 12:07 PM
I'm in favor of making a zealot's weapons innate, rather than store bought.

At level 1, a zealot would gain the ambidexterity feat for free, do 1d6 damage + cha, which will be quite a bit, as a racial modifier of +2 cha would add one damage. Smart players would probably have cha as the highest stat. Of course, that leads to fighters that are also very convincing....

And then every so may levels afterwards, a zealot would gain an extra d6 of damage. Perhaps he could find small modifications to add damage to his psi blades.

Too balance things, I think ranged attackers (hydralisks, marines, etc.) should be allowed an AoO when melee units move in to attack them. It makes a bit of sense too. How hard is it to squeeze a trigger?

I think Dark Templar should have to make full attacks to get sneak attack damage. So he couldn't move and attack and get the bonus all in the same round. Maybe dark templar should only be allowed to attack or move in a round, and not both?

The permanent cloaking thing is a bit extreme, as well. However, they were quite fragile, so it may be ok.

Forte
2005-09-15, 12:57 PM
I've finished the concepts of my last protoss classes. I'm in the phases of writing them out now. They are as follows:

Acolyte (Judicator) - A class based around the manipulation of time and space.

Lancer (Dark Tempar) - A class based on deadly, long ranged attacks.

Flayer (Dark Templar) - A class based on tearing at the minds of their opponents.

Archivist (Khalai) - Based loosely on the Bard and Loremaster classes, this class is focused on the control and gathering of information and history.

Technomancer (Khalai) - While the Shaper creates the crystal and psionic devices so often seen, the Technomancer delves into the mundane world, specializing in protoss constructs and cybernetic technologies.

This puts me at 12 protoss classes, 3 classes per caste, and giving each caste different, but equally usefull abilities and offering some divercity within the castes themselves.

One thing I noticed while creating these is that while using D20 Modern/Future rules for the Terrans are fine, the protoss add an element of the fantastic that is not properly balanced in the standing rules. Therfore, I suggest that the Terran's base and advanced classes follow the saving throw rules from standard DnD and not the reduced values from D20 Modern/Future.

Also of note, if you decide on giving the protoss shields that work as hit points, consider boosting all terran class HD to the next highest (Strong heroes would get d10's, Tough heroes would get d12's, etc.) I myself am going to be using shields in the form of powers and equipment and not a racial ability.

DarkLight140
2005-09-15, 01:26 PM
Eh, radiation resistance added to Zerg Traits.

I think, to handle cloaking, we're just giving a massive bonus to Hide, and the ability to hide while under observation. One of the things that always bugged me in Starcraft was that you knew where the enemy cloaked units were but you couldn't get your units to fire at them; I'm not sure if going with the commander's or unit's POV would be best, but commander's works for now.

I could go with -2 Wis, +2 Cha as the Protoss racial modifiers. Powerful Build is probably enough to represent their physical strength, and they're mentally and personality-wise very powerful. Not so much in-tune with everything, though

On the blade thing. Cha bonus to damage is good. I'd say that class abilities and possibly feats can enhance psi-blade use and damage, but the psiblades themselves should be items: the Dark Templar is effectively weilding a greatsword as compared to the Zealot's two shortswords, which should show the damage and rate of attack differences fairly well. Also, why not make psi-based weapons bypass object hardness?

Forte, those classes sound really cool, but I don't know of anywhere you could host them... posting in quote brackets is what I've mostly been doing, and it's a lot to post, but...

I'm thinking we should go with having shield Hit Dice, with the score of improvement either Int or Cha for all classes, or based on the class that you took at first level. Using multiple mental stats could get really, really messy. I like the Terran-HD-boost to compensate, though the save boost seems to me to make the world too much less lethal.

Spuddly
2005-09-15, 01:36 PM
If we make melee protoss charisma based, maybe they should get a penalty to charisma based checks with other races?

This makes sense in two ways– Protoss honor and revere warriors, so it stands to reason that warriors would have an easier time of charisma based checks, but they're also bullheaded and dogmatic, which makes it hard for them to get along with those who aren't Protoss.

Diplomacy and other charisma based skills could also be cross class, so as to discourage that kind of thing as well.

I like the idea of psi blades bi-passing hardness, but that shouldn't be a level one ability, ought it?

Should Terran infantry armor have hardness?

DarkLight140
2005-09-15, 02:23 PM
Well, Terran armors will have hardness in the sense that they're objects and objects typically have hardness, but they'll also provide DR to those wearing them.

Yeah- I'm thinking that we could write up a chain of [Psiblade] feats, or something similar, and give certain bonus ones to certain classes during their progression. Bypassing hardness strikes me as something that psiblades do, espicially with how easily Dark Templars tear through vehicles, but it probably shouldn't be a built-in thing.

Making those skills cross-class may be enough, but if we feel compelled to do so, we could give Protoss a racial penalty of -2 or so to Charisma-based checks with other races. That might help both offset their power and be in-flavor. Plus they do look kinda unnerving.

Spuddly
2005-09-15, 03:24 PM
Well, Terran armors will have hardness in the sense that they're objects and objects typically have hardness, but they'll also provide DR to those wearing them.
That's what I meant :)

I think designing Terran armor might take as much work as designing classes, since most of the Terran's strength comes from their technology.

Gorbash Kazdar
2005-09-15, 03:38 PM
Coming into it a little late on this, but... I can see the common Zerg not having as much protection against environmental hazards nroamlly as one might expect. After all, for a hive mind losing a few zerglings is about as worrisome as having some hair fall out or clipping toenails. Of course, space going zerg would need to have some protection, since they'd be useless without it, and, of course, as per descriptions found throughout the source material zerg are quite resilient due to their nature. But for long term effects of the environment, I don't think Zerg would much care - they'd just spawn some more zerg to replace what the hive mind would see as typical attrition, the way a body regenerates lost cells.

DarkLight140
2005-09-15, 07:37 PM
Actually, that's probably right... how long does it take for our astronauts to become sick due to high radiation once they've been in space? Does the average Zergling have a lifespan a quarter that long?

Spuddly
2005-09-15, 07:47 PM
I hear 500 days on Mars would be a leathal dose of cosmic radiation.

Would a zergling live a year and a half?

DarkLight140
2005-09-15, 07:53 PM
Well, probably. I'd estimate something like a 3-5 year lifespan for zerglings, maybe 6-8 for hyrdalisks, and longer for bigger Zerg. I could have a skewed perspective, though. But why would they be left in space that long? Why wouldn't they be put in space long enough to kill any enemies, then moved planetside? The Overmind doesn't exactly build space stations, and seems mostly interested in already-habitable planets.

Anyway, is 'lethal dose' meaning you're dead after that long, or what? I mean, do you kick feebly for the next few years before expiring, or what?

Spuddly
2005-09-15, 08:56 PM
It just doesn't make sense to me that any spacefaring race would purposefully be sensitive to radiation. Traveling through space takes a long time– you might be in space for 6-8 years to get where you're going.

I'm not proposing zerg are immune to radiation, just that compared to an unarmored terran a zerg would be. Surely high enough radiation levels would have deleterious effects, but for the sake of being exposed to the cold harsh vacuum of space, a zerg wouldn't have the same problems you and I have. The zerg's homeplanet is also Char, which is quite volcanic, which leads me to believe they are resistant to heat (not fire, as firebats rock zerglings).

One of Kerrigan's bases is an infested space platform, too. There was some really sweet artwork of a space platform with hives, spires and creep dripping off it.

Nyrath
2005-09-18, 09:14 AM
A take on the Goliath useing D20 future to get this moveing again.

"Goliath"
Size: Huge (-2 size) 18ft tall
Superstructure: Duralloy
Armour: Duralloy
Armour penalty: -8
Strength bonus: +16
Speed: 30ft
Bonus hitpints: 200
Hardness: 15
Bonus to Defense: +8
Reach: 10ft
Dexterity penalty: --

Equipment;
Cockpit useing Helmet and Torso slots.
Targeting system MIII useing Visor slot.
Space Skin useing Boots slot.
Life Support system useing Belt slot.
Class II sensor system useing Back slot.
Two M-9 Barrage Chainguns useing Left&Right Hand slots.
6 extra ammo belts for each M-9 useing Left&Right Arm slots.
M-87 Talon Missile Launcher useing Shoulder slots.
Comlink useing no slots.

Cockpit: A medium sized bipedal humanoind can use the Goliath. Haveing "Great build"(or whatever it's called) makes you unable to use it.
Targeting System:The Oracle Targeting System MIII grants a +3 enhancement bonus on attack rolls useing one of the Goliaths weapon systems. Switching between the M-9 and M-87 requires a move action.
Space Skin:The Goliath can be safely operated in vacuum and thus space.
Life Support:The Goliath is enclosed and the user is protected against inhaled poisons and immersion in water. The onboard air supply lasts 24 hours.
Sensor System: The Class II Sensor system includes an electromagnetic detector array and an infrared detector. It also features a high-resolution video system which includes a zoom feature. It grants a +2 equipment bonus on Navigate and Spot checks.
Comm system: This can handle up to ten two way conversations and has a range of 100 miles.
M-9 Barrage Chaingun: The M-9 has multiple barrels that fire large caliber ammunition semi- or fully automaticly. A successfull hit deals 5d6 ballistic damage. With the expanded ammo storage a fully loaded M-9 has 10 fifty round belts at its disposal. Its range increment is 60 ft.
M-87 Talon: The M-87 Talon Missile Launcher has a range of 2000 ft without range increments but only four rounds. Single target and does 15d6 on a hit with half being ballistic and the other half being fire.
___________________________________________

This is simply a first take on it so opions are appreciated.

ghostrunner
2005-09-19, 06:05 PM
Nyrath, I like what you have for the goliath so far. I've been working on vehicles myself and have run into a problem: A lot of the rules for vehicles (particularly spacecraft and mecha) are only balanced for combat against other vehicles of their types. The damage capacity and armor and whatnot seems very unbalanced across types. For instance, a single wraith (if given statistics similar to the fighters in d20 future: the armor, hardness, HP, weapons damage, etc.) could single handedly take out platoons of marines and hardly recieve a scratch. d20 future just seems that it didn't intend for much person-to-spacecraft combat (which, realistically probably wouldn't happen much anyway).
A few possible solutions to this disparity include scaling armor and damage for vehicles down and/or armor and damage for infantry up.
However, it has just struck me that I'm still probably thinking too much in terms of the StarCraft RTS game mechanics. In more realistic terms, Marines would probably only be deployed in large squads, wraiths would probably be used mostly for combat against aerial targets, and, in RL, a big, armored spacecraft or vehicle probably should be able to take out a lot of infantry. Besides, most RPG games probably wouldn't focus on big battles, or at least, the PC's involvement in a big battle would be more specific than grunt work.
Now that I've answered my own question, I'll go back to finishing my draft of the terran vehicles. BTW, Nyrath, I'll include your Goliath in my draft; I think yours is far superior to mine. I just made my version of the goliath like any other vehicle (though with better mobilty) instead of using the mecha rules.

Spuddly
2005-09-19, 06:16 PM
For the Goliath:
Hellfire Rocket upgrade for an additional 2 rocket capacity+ 500ft more range?

Nyrath
2005-09-20, 01:38 AM
This is the limit of what a Mecha can carry at that size, could be modified to carry more missiles but it's a bit to much thinking in RTS starcraft terms to simply say that an upgrade would fix it.

OOT-crazy
2005-09-20, 11:47 AM
GHOSTRUNNER

Remember - a wraith can take out a platoon of marines. The players will have to avoid these beasties rather than try and kill them.

ghostrunner
2005-09-20, 12:18 PM
GHOSTRUNNER

Remember - a wraith can take out a platoon of marines. The players will have to avoid these beasties rather than try and kill them.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. I was thinking too much in terms of StarCraft's RTS game mechanics and balance.

Nyrath
2005-09-21, 02:24 PM
I'll post a take on the dragoon later on when I find the papers again. Just for reference when useing D20 future. I'm putting Terrans around PL 5-6, 6 in regards to most things but 5 with most weaponry on the ground. The Protoss I think are around late PL7 with just about everything. Even if they mostly don't use ranged weapons they still have the technology to make them REAL good. Anyone think differently?

ghostrunner
2005-09-21, 05:53 PM
I'll post a take on the dragoon later on when I find the papers again. Just for reference when useing D20 future. I'm putting Terrans around PL 5-6, 6 in regards to most things but 5 with most weaponry on the ground.
I agree for the most part, though terrans probably have the occasional foray into late PL6 or even early PL7. But PL5 weaponry with mostly PL6 technology was what I was thinking as well. Given that the SC universe is already created and polulated, I don't have too much problem picking and choosing from the PL levels to get what I need to describe what is already there.

Annarrkkii
2005-09-21, 06:19 PM
I say we do scale them down, as it is my opinion that vehicles were scaled down in Starcraft. Something like the Goliath simply could not be brought down by being stabbed by psi-blades and shot by bullets. I mean, a twetny foot plus being of steel with chainguns and missiles.

Also bear in mind that the Hydralisks will be more effective if we use hardness, as acid bypasses hardness.

Spuddly
2005-09-21, 07:41 PM
In Starcraft, technology discrepancies were balanced out with building time and resource cost. Zerglings were cheap and fast to build, but you get what you pay for, right?

Should we scale Terran technology up to balance individual units with Protoss units (giving marines access to goliaths, tactical nukes, etc. relatively early and cheaply), or scale Protoss units back?

Perhaps game mechanics can work into the storyline a bit.

It's after the Dominion retreated, the Queen of Blades tore everything up and Minsk lost his empire, so stuff should be in pretty good disarray. Access to military technology should be relatively easy and cheap. I hear you can buy hand grenades in Khazakstan for $5.

As part of a Terran's level progression, they get access to better technology, more upgrades, etc.

By the time a zealot has gotten rough and tough enough to go to toe to toe with a goliath, the terran's been able to build a goliath or upgrade his suit or whatever.

Annarrkkii
2005-09-21, 10:29 PM
That's the equivalent of $5. To the people there, it's probably substantially more.

DarkLight140
2005-09-22, 01:38 AM
Hmmm... if we're going with the RTS unit->RPG unit group idea, which makes a lot of sense, then do some of the Zerg need editing? They're fairly strong as things are.

Spuddly, I don't think we should worry about balance between individuals of races until we have the details of each race worked out; races in Starcraft are pretty unequal. The Terran can essentially be balanced after finializing the other races by just changing the costs, craft DCs and use DCs of equipment, so I'd think that leaving those factors until we have a clear idea of what we're balancing them against is probably the best plan.

Speaking of which, didn't someone have Protoss classes written up?

Also. Annarrkkii. The Goliath can certainly be brought down by psiblades and bullets; you'd probably need very nice guns to get through its armor, but psiblades used by those with the proper feats, as we were discussing earlier, should be able to cut through Goliath armor like cheese. This, again, is stressing the Protoss emphasis on individual strength over technology; Protoss level into incredible warriors, such that a warrior Protoss with and a warrior Terran, both with the same XP and following the wealth-by-level guidelines, should have around a 50/50 shot at taking each other out when fully equipped. The Terran will buy better and better weapons and stuff as he levels and his major gains will be in his ability to use it effectively; the Protoss might buy a shield-amplifier, better psiblades, armor with a few gadgets built in, or something along those lines, but mostly he'll be running on his own power.

Because of this, we shouldn't decide wealth-by-level until we have at least a little playtesting. Also, make Terran equipment hard for other races to use, and make Terran and Protoss wealth have bad exchange rates or none at all.

Spuddly
2005-09-22, 02:27 AM
That's the equivalent of $5. To the people there, it's probably substantially more.

Fair enough. But in terms of absolute supply and demand, there are a lot of Russian hand grenades and Kalashnikovs out there. Comparatively, even a smei-automatic weapon costs far more here in the states. Explosives are pretty much illegal.

What I was saying was that technology should be the balancing factor for Terrans. As part of their level progression they should get access tp some pretty sweet gear. A 'Toss should just get a slightly better lightsab- psiblade, ability to bypass hardness more efficiently.

Nyrath
2005-09-22, 04:28 AM
For the Terrans remember that they have at least limited access to to "branches" of their kind of techniology. The Collonial one and the UED one. Both are recognisably human but have several differences that where not all that apparent in the game. But it seems logical that the UED would not have Goliaths until after actually arriving but might well have had something similar.
The thing with the Goliath I've written is that it can only accomidate a medium size bipedal humanoid. The Protoss are stretching this to the limit and have different physiology thus it seemed logical to exclude them from piloting an (unmodified) Goliath.

ninja_penguin
2005-09-22, 10:08 AM
Speaking of which, didn't someone have Protoss classes written up?

Also. Annarrkkii. The Goliath can certainly be brought down by psiblades and bullets; you'd probably need very nice guns to get through its armor, but psiblades used by those with the proper feats, as we were discussing earlier, should be able to cut through Goliath armor like cheese. This, again, is stressing the Protoss emphasis on individual strength over technology; Protoss level into incredible warriors, such that a warrior Protoss with and a warrior Terran, both with the same XP and following the wealth-by-level guidelines, should have around a 50/50 shot at taking each other out when fully equipped. The Terran will buy better and better weapons and stuff as he levels and his major gains will be in his ability to use it effectively; the Protoss might buy a shield-amplifier, better psiblades, armor with a few gadgets built in, or something along those lines, but mostly he'll be running on his own power.

1. I've got a Zealot and a Dark Templar class about ready for posting, but I'll be hosting it on my own site, because my Table skills are weak. I believe Forte had several protoss classes going on. Forte, if you could PM me, or E-mail me ([email protected]) with a document or something with those classes, I'd be willing to put them up as well so we can work on stuff.

2. About the Goliaths' and such hardness, I was building the zealot similar to a fighter, except I was making a list of [Psiblade] feats that they could take as bonus feats, similar to a fighter. I had a line of them that let them reduce the hardness of an object they attack by X + their CHA modifier. (I think that X starts at 0, then 5, then 10) That sound all right?

Edit- Also, this has been something that's slightly hampered my ideas. How much of the upgrades that you see to protoss units is going to be buyable equipment, and how much are going to be class features? I'm mostly referring to the leg improvement of the Zealot, and the Increased Singularity control (this may be an incorrect name.) that increases the range of a dragoon.

Nyrath
2005-09-22, 11:53 AM
Higher cost of equipment would seem in order. Just how much is up for testing. It will all have to be playtested anyway.

ghostrunner
2005-09-22, 12:45 PM
I think that we're still thinking too much in the realm of the RTS game. I don't think that we should have "upgrades" per se. And individual PC could get better armor, a better gun, or whatever, but it almost seems like things are being designed for this d20 version as though PCs will periodically find out that the player of their game just finished researching a develpment, so now they get a bonus to defense. What fit the balancing mechanic of an RTS game seems very contrived for a PnP RPG.

DarkLight140
2005-09-22, 12:47 PM
I think that except for the Zerg, all upgrades are going to be equipment costs. Meaning that a Zealot can buy a psiblade that does extra damage, leg enhancements, or psi-shield boosters, a Terran can buy a gun that does extra damage, reinforced armor, or a stimpack, and so forth.

The hardness-bypassing feats sounds fairly solid, although everything needs playtesting. I'm looking forwards to seeing these classes...

ninja_penguin
2005-09-22, 12:52 PM
Hrm, all right. I'll have to do some temporary tweaking, my current development of the zealot had the leg enhancment as a sort of Barbarian-like class ability to movement. I also had an Feat of (Enlarge Psi-blade)[Psiblade] feat. I'll do some minor tweaking. hopefully I'll have something up the weekend at the latest.

Spuddly
2005-09-22, 04:28 PM
I think to make a few differences between Protoss and Terrans, Protoss should have to spend feats or something to do stuff. Most of their abilities, at least to me, seemed like rather innate stuff. Their technology was powered by psionics, and presumably controlled by the same stuff.

On the other hand, Terrans are a very frail race, comparatively. A zealot can go toe-toe with a lot of zerglings, while a marine is chewed up quickly. Terrans compensate with technology, Protoss just by being tough and having shields. This is only my interpretation though.

Ghostrunner,

I think that we're still thinking too much in the realm of the RTS game. I don't think that we should have "upgrades" per se. And individual PC could get better armor, a better gun, or whatever, but it almost seems like things are being designed for this d20 version as though PCs will periodically find out that the player of their game just finished researching a develpment, so now they get a bonus to defense. What fit the balancing mechanic of an RTS game seems very contrived for a PnP RPG.

I didn't mean to sound so contrived. I was thinking that Terran level progression would include their ability (and access) to technology. For instance, does a good DM give their level 1 players access to a +3 Flaming Longsword? No, of course not.

But as the adventurers explore more and get stronger, they find better stuff.

So an adventurer in a SC post-Broodwar PnP game, with appropriate skill levels, may find the shell of a siege tank and scavenge it for parts to repair the Goliath she dredged out of a tarpit. This way, despite the Terrans not having shields or many hit die they can still keep up with the Protoss.

ghostrunner
2005-09-22, 07:21 PM
I didn't mean to sound so contrived. I was thinking that Terran level progression would include their ability (and access) to technology. For instance, does a good DM give their level 1 players access to a +3 Flaming Longsword? No, of course not.
I didn't mean to say that your suggestion sounded contrived, at least no more than any others (including my own). I definitely agree with your ideas about players getting better equipment as the game goes on and what not; I just don't think upgrades should be an all-or-nothing concept as it is in the RTS game. I'm not accusing you of saying that or anything; those are just my thoughts on the matter.

ninja_penguin
2005-09-25, 08:35 AM
Update: Due to technical difficulties, it might be closer to next weekend when I can get anything online. sorry.

Edit- Although does anybody know where you can find netscape composer? I downloaded netscape but I can't find it. Any sort of Free and LEGAL HTLM editor similar to it is what I need.

DarkLight140
2005-09-25, 03:30 PM
No, I don't sorry...

So, are we essentially halting progress on the Protoss until ninja_penguin and/or Forte get what they've worked on up, or what? Seems tough to design more without them. Should we just focus on mechanics of Terrans and maybe design some Zerg? Can we get stats for Terran vehicles, espicially spaceships, so that I'll have an easier time with Mutalisks and such?

Nyrath
2005-09-25, 04:13 PM
Here's my take on the Dragoon. Would have been up a while ago but I lost the papers.

Dragoon Mecha, Quadruped
Size: large (-1 size)
Superstructure: Neovulcanium
Armour: Crystalcarbon
Armour penalty: -8
Strength bonus: +8
Speed: 40ft.
Bonus hitpoints: 100
Hardness: 20
Bonus to Defense: +10
Reach: 10ft
Dexterity penalty: 0

Equipment
Space skin useing Left Arm slot.
Life Support system useing Right Arm slot.
Cockpit useing Head & Torso slots.
Class V Sensor system useing Belt slot.
NKP Puma Pop-up Turret useing back slot. range 75ft, 8d6 fire damage.

_____________________________________

Equipment names are from the D20 future book so it's easier to find at this stage in development.

DarkLight140
2005-09-25, 04:16 PM
So... for those of us poor buggers who lack d20 Future or whatever it is that you're using, what does that all translate to? In particular,

Superstructure: Neovulcanium
Armour: Crystalcarbon
Armour penalty: -8
Strength bonus: +8
Class V Sensor system useing Belt slot.

mean what?

Nyrath
2005-09-25, 04:34 PM
The superstructure is what gives it its hardness. The armour is what gives the defense bonus and armour penalty. The strength bonus is the extra strength you get while piloting the "Mecha". In this case it simply adds itself to whoever is unfortunate enough to need a dragoon exoskeleton.
The sensors grant 180ft darkvision, +6 equipment bonus on Navigate and spot checks made while in the dragoon. That's the short version.

DarkLight140
2005-09-25, 04:45 PM
Um, the dead guy gets to use his original Strength while turned into a Dragoon, even though he's dead? I'd support a fixed Strength score.

I wonder about this:
Armour penalty: -8
Bonus to Defense: +10

Is 'armour penalty' a check penalty sort of thing, or...?

Spuddly
2005-09-25, 05:04 PM
I think a dragoon would be huge. You could only fit two of them in a transport, or 4 zealots or 8 marines.

I'd also think a crippled protoss would have about 0 zero strength. A dragoon with only 8 strength seems awefully pathetic. Just about anything could grapple that.

SpiderBrigade
2005-09-26, 12:31 AM
Well, if it's huge, it gets some hefty bonuses to the grapple check in the first place. In fact it can't be grappled by medium creatures at all. Which makes sense: a man-sized thing could maybe wrap around a dragoon's leg and cling there.

Nyrath
2005-09-26, 03:04 AM
Well, then at least I can get the self-repair unit installed. Allthough 1d10 hp per round but uterly helpless, it's not something you would use during a fight.

DarkLight140
2005-09-26, 09:08 AM
Or you could add a psi-amplifier to give it shields based on the pilot's psychic power, which as far as I can see, it doesn't have.

ninja_penguin
2005-09-26, 11:08 AM
New update: I think I've gotten something that'll let me get webpages up. It'll still be later in the week before I can get this stuff up, but I should have something up.

Also, Forte, PLEASE send me something, so I can work on this stuff as I get time. I want to put up both of our work at the same time so everybody doesn't get used to one or the others' work and decide it's canon.

Nyrath
2005-09-26, 03:03 PM
I'm currently useing the D20 future books so that we'll have a starting point once we start seeing more on the other parts. So far there are no examples of protoss equipment so I won't go into specifics yet there.

otto333
2005-09-29, 12:13 AM
I am making a campaign right now with a starcraft campain setting that i made. i got a 10'x4 table with a command center that looks just the real thing. I bought some starcraft minis from this site (below) and i mixed some with tyranids and space marines to make different armours, zerglings ect.

otto333
2005-09-29, 12:15 AM
oops here the site is http://www.moduni.de/product_info.php/products_id/3102012

ninja_penguin
2005-09-30, 04:21 PM
All right. I've finally gotten some of this stuff typed up, so let people start reviewing, adding suggestions, etc. Right off the bat I'd like to say that I have about no experience with the D20 Future books, and limited psionics, so suggestions/corrections/ideas along those lines are appreciated.

Zealot class page
http://www.geocities.com/darkpengo/SCD20_Zealot.html

Attempt to get all protoss Race info on teh same page
http://www.geocities.com/darkpengo/SCD20_Protoss_Race.html

DarkLight140
2005-10-01, 07:22 PM
Okay, a few thoughts.

Firstly, I'd say that the Zealots should have a 'Zealot List', not only Psiblade feats, but also other useful things. Unless we're going to come up with a lot of Psiblade feats...

By the way, I'd just make the second feat in the chain ignore hardness altogether, but that may be a bit too powerful. On the other hand, without something that good, I can't see one of these guys taking on a Goliath or tank.

On the psiblades themselves, I'd make them items. Say, 1d8 damage, 19-20 critical, counts as a light weapon for a Protoss. We could limit the Twin Blades of Auir ability significantly: Blades of Auir, at first level, gives Cha bonus to damage rolls. Then, we put a lot of two-weapon fighting feats on the Zealot list, so that we can say the standard Zealot NPC chooses those. Thoughts?

Also, the Protoss race, I think we concluded, is only one race. There aren't four subraces. I thought we'd discounted most of what's posted on your Protoss summary thread, actually.

Adghar
2005-10-01, 07:50 PM
When you guys are done, I'm going to steal the system off you and use it for my gaming group. Is that okay?

ninja_penguin
2005-10-01, 10:53 PM
Darklight: All right, couple of things:

1. Hrm, I'm sorry that I evidently missed whatever was said about canning the various castes of the Protoss, that'll probably end up with me modding a few things around that I'm bandying about.

2. Are we keeping the 'powerful build' trait for the Protoss? (heck, is anything on my protoss page even accurate for what we had decided?). If so, would that mean that the protoss could wield 'large' versions of the psi-blade without penalty?

3. I'm all for having a lot of items, at least for the zealots, where they list that a lot of the zealot fighting power is packed into their cybernetically grafted suits. Maybe the Zealot could get some sort of free upgrade as a class feature?

4. For psiblade feats, I really wasn't sure how much hardness I wanted them to do. Maybe I'll remove the second feat and replace it with the third feat, and add something like the following (whoops, uncompleted, blast my natural 1 on a Cut and Paste chek) Unstoppable will feat:

Unstoppable will
Prereqs: [Up for discussion
Benefit: When attacking a target with DR X/-, if your CHA modifier is equal to or greater then the targets Damage reduction, you may reduce their damage reduction by one.

[End feat speil.]

I was also planning to give the zealots the equivilant of the improved multiweapon fighting feats, the dual strike feat from Complete Adventurer, and possibly a feat chain that allowed them to gain a dodge bonus when they make a full attack (working name: Flurrying Defense).

5. And here's my current stumper on the Dark Templar class. how do we want to handle their perma-invisibility? I know about nil with psionics, so I don't know if there's a power out that that works, of if we just want a class feature with ungodly hide bonuses, or what.

Edit--

By the way, what are people's thoughts on the seperate HD and SD?

Nyrath
2005-10-02, 04:41 AM
We could handle it like the cloaking feature from D20 future. Along the lines of, say 40 hide bonus if immobile, half that if moveing.

OOT-crazy
2005-10-02, 07:52 AM
btw for those who don't have d20 future it can be found with the d20 modern SRD at wizards (unfortunately there isn't a hyperlinked version)

Kulatu
2005-10-03, 02:44 AM
Was too lazy to read through the entire thing...but if you need any help send me a Private Message.

DarkLight140
2005-10-06, 04:36 PM
We are in incredible and dire need of help from anyone who can give it and is willing to read through the thread and work with the direction we're going in.

We're keeping Powerful Build. I'm not sure on the exact effects of that, unfortunately.

We could make them proficient with something (Heavy Armor (Protoss), perhaps?) as a class feature, and then just have standard cash take it from there.

I think we decided all cloaking and invisibility will take the form of a substantial Hide bonus, but the exact numbers weren't determined.

*sigh* I'm still wondering where those other classes got to...

Spuddly
2005-10-06, 04:50 PM
What have we decided on?

Classes are race specific?

For the Protoss, simply for flavor, we could call their classes castes. They'd all have the same racial abilities, but different castes would have different HD, BAB, etc.

Terrans– should vehicles count as their equipment? A Zealot could hack a terran up fairly easily.

To balance things out, though it reduces flavor, the Protoss could be equipment dependent like the Terrans (though I see the Protoss more like monks than knights).

Honestly, I don't think Protoss are all that strong, at least not without their cybernetics and psionic abilities. Perhaps they should all get to use their poerful build for one hour per pp spent? That way, every Protoss caste would get to be in powerful build at least once per day. This would also reduce the LA for Protoss.

DarkLight140
2005-10-06, 05:17 PM
Okay, look, we've worked this out.

Protoss have no LA. Protoss use equipment- psiblades, armor, spaceships- but their primary gains as they level are in personal capabilities. The Protoss classes are not simply their castes; they have specialized classes based upon occupation. These classes are to be balanced so that a Terran and Protoss of the same XP total will be the same level, but the Terran will have substantially more equipment (more cash-by-level and cheaper goods, includes vehicles) and the Protoss will have more personal power. Forte made all the classes and disappeared, so we're attempting reworkings. Terrans use d20 Modern and d20 Future classes.

Nyrath
2005-10-25, 03:32 PM
Has this simply ground to a halt?

Spuddly
2005-10-25, 05:59 PM
I don't have all your fancy d20 stuff, so I'm stymied. :-/

Nyrath
2005-10-30, 03:21 PM
Use this http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd

Ryshan Ynrith
2005-10-30, 07:05 PM
I'll do what I can.

Here's a fairly rough preliminary draft for marine armor:

EMI BA-17 “Titan” Battle Armor, Mk I

Class: Powered
Damage Reduction: 5
Check Penalty: -8
Speed: 30 ft

Exoskeletal Boost: +2 enhancement bonus to strength. No speed reduction.

Life Support: The BA-17 is pressurized and supplied with enough oxygen to sustain a human for 8 hours.

IR Display: The BA-17 is equipped with infrared and other passive light-amplification equipment. The user gains Darkvision 120’.

Comlink: A standard comlink is built into the BA-17’s helmet.


A staple of Terran infantry forces, the Eridani Military Industries “Titan” power armor grants considerable resiliency to the average foot soldier. Widely used in Terran space, most notably in the UED and Confederate forces.



System Upgrades:

Enhanced Composites (3)
Superior composite materials enhance the protection provided by the Titan. Add +1 DR for each level of Enhanced Composites.

Battlefield Chemical Enhancement System [BCES]
The BCES system enables extremely rapid dispensing of chemical agents into the user. As a swift action, a user may inject 1 dose of any chemical loaded into the machine. The BCES holds 10 doses.

Enhanced Myomers (2)
Superior myomer technology gives users additional strength. Add +2 to the strength enhancement for each level of Enhanced Myomers

Randomman413
2005-10-30, 07:48 PM
OMG! TOTALLY OUT OF NOWHERE!!! The commercial for Zathura just came on. It said it was in theaters on November 11th. BUT ITS ALREADY OUT!!! ITS BEEN OUT! I SAW IT LAST NIGHT!!! WHATS UP WITH THAT!?!?!

Adghar
2005-10-30, 11:45 PM
I forgot the answer I got before, but when this system is finished, even though I haven't contributed to the project, will I be allowed to take it and use it for personal use?

Spuddly
2005-10-30, 11:55 PM
Who's going to stop you?

Ryshan Ynrith
2005-10-31, 06:01 PM
Here's a possibility for stimpacks.

ECE Corp. Agent 174-epsilon

The Earth Chemical Engineering Corporation Agent 174- epsilon, more commonly known as a stimpack, is a potent combination of chemicals based off adrenaline. When injected intravenously, a human user gains considerable combat advantages at the cost of long-term health.

Using a stimpack grants the following abilities for 3 rounds:

Speed +10 ft and benefits of Run feat, with no penalties from armor.
1 extra attack/round
+2 Str

However, it also inflicts 3 points of nonlethal damage each round, and deals 2 points of constitution damage at the end of its duration.
Stimpacks may be loaded into a BCES unit.


I'd appreciate any help at pricing these things, as I have *no* idea how to price d20 modern/future stuff.

(edit) Board does not like foreign symbols.

Spuddly
2005-10-31, 07:04 PM
Are the two points of constitution damage permanent?

Ryshan Ynrith
2005-10-31, 07:11 PM
No. It's damage, not drain. Heals at a rate of 1/day.

ninja_penguin
2005-10-31, 09:06 PM
Well, I'm still around, it's just that mid-terms came and blew me away so I wasn't able to do anything, and then I had no idea what was going on anymore.

I'm willing to do more webpage work, and some of the protoss classes. My biggest problem is my general inability to understand the wealth system in terms of what is fair.

And of course, I won't have much time until later this week before I can do anything, since most school stuff is pretty heavy to prevent me from sitting down and working on stuffs.

Nyrath
2005-11-01, 09:01 AM
On the lines of what is fair. Most military grade longarms (sniper rifles, assault rifles & the like) are at, or just above, 20. Serious firepower in handgun form is slightly lower. Squad level firepower such as flamethrowers, anti-tank weapons, and machine guns usually lie around 24+. Ammo, unless rockets or such, usually cost between 3-7, 3 for 9mm and 7 for .50, that is, if I remember correctly.

Ryshan Ynrith
2005-11-01, 08:13 PM
Okay, updated versions of the previous, and more!

EMI BA-17 “Titan” Battle Armor, Mk I

Class: Powered
Damage Reduction: 5
Check Penalty: -8
Speed: 30 ft

Exoskeletal Boost: +2 enhancement bonus to strength. No speed reduction. Wearer gains the Powerful Build ability.

Life Support: The BA-17 is pressurized and supplied with enough oxygen to sustain a human for 8 hours.

IR Display: The BA-17 is equipped with infrared and other passive light-amplification equipment. The user gains Darkvision 120’.

Comlink: A standard comlink is built into the BA-17’s helmet.

Environmental Protection: The BA-17 can protect its user from temperatures ranging from -20 to 120 degrees Celsius.


A staple of Terran infantry forces, the Eridani Military Industries “Titan” power armor grants considerable resiliency to the average foot soldier. Widely used in Terran space, most notably in the UED and Confederate forces.

Purchase DC: 25 (res +2)


System Upgrades:

Enhanced Composites (3)
Superior composite materials enhance the protection provided by the Titan. Add +1 DR for each level of Enhanced Composites.
Purchase DC: 16 (1, Res +2), 19 (2, Mil+3), 23 (3, Mil +3)

Battlefield Chemical Enhancement System [BCES]
The BCES system enables extremely rapid dispensing of chemical agents into the user. As a swift action, a user may inject 1 dose of any chemical loaded into the machine. The BCES holds 10 doses.
Purchase DC: 15 (Mil +3)

Enhanced Myomers (2)
Superior myomer technology gives users additional strength. Add +2 to the strength enhancement for each level of Enhanced Myomers
Purchase DC: 17 (1, Mil+3), 19 (2, Mil+3)
Improved Insulation:
Enhanced insulation added to the BR-17 allow it to protect the user from even more extreme temperatures. The user may survive comfortably in temperatures ranging from -50 to 200 degrees Celsius, and gains Fire and Cold resistance 8.
Purchase DC: 15 (Res +2)


ECE Corp. Agent 174-epsilon

The Earth Chemical Engineering Corporation Agent 174- epsilon, more commonly known as a stimpack, is a potent combination of chemicals based off adrenaline. When injected intravenously, a human user gains considerable combat advantages at the cost of long-term health.

Using a stimpack grants the following abilities for 3 rounds:

Speed +10 ft and benefits of Run feat, with no penalties from armor.
1 extra attack/round
+2 Str

However, it also inflicts 3 points of nonlethal damage each round, and deals 2 points of constitution damage at the end of its duration.
Stimpacks may be loaded into a BCES unit.

Purchase DC: 10 doses for 15 (Mil+3)


EMI GR-27 “Fury” Gauss Rifle

Damage: 2d12
Critical: 20/2x
Damage Type: Ballistic
Range Increment: 90 ft
Rate of Fire: S, A
Magazine: 150 int
Size: Huge
Weight: 38 pounds
Purchase DC: 23
Restriction: Military (+3)

The Eridani Military Industries GR-27 is the standard in military firearms. Accurate, heavy-hitting, and capable of single-shot, burst, and full automatic fire, the Fury is aptly named. The Fury uses the standard 7.62 mm gauss round.

The internal magazine of a Fury takes a full-round action to reload.

Like all gauss weapons, the Fury may be set to silent operation, but does only 1 die of damage if this is done. In all other respects, treat it as a silenced chemical firearm.

System Upgrades:

Enhanced Coils (3):
An upgrade to the magnetic coils allows enhanced muzzle-velocity and damage. The Fury deals +2 damage per level of Enhanced Coils, and has a range increment of +5 ft per level.


EMI AW-79 “Perdition” Flamethrower
Damage: 3d8
Critical: -
Damage Type: Fire
Range Increment: 30 ft (max)
Rate of Fire: S
Magazine: 20 int
Size: Huge
Weight: 30 pounds (empty), 60 pounds (loaded)
Purchase DC: 24
Restriction: Military (+3)

The Eridani Military Industries Perdition flamethrower has entered service widely only in the past few years, when its usefulness against Protoss and Zerg melee troops was discovered. Using a potent mixture of volatile liquids, highly reactive metals, and accelerants, the AW-79 is capable of burning through substances previously considered fireproof. A unique mounting system puts the flame emitters on the user’s wrists, leaving his hands free.

The Perdition creates a jet of fire 10 ft wide by thirty feet long, and does its damage to any unit caught in its area. As it is made up of two arm-mounted emitters, a user may instead split the area into two 5-ft by 25-ft lines, each directed in any direction. Overlapping jets do not stack damage.

System Upgrades:

Enhanced Nozzles: (3)
Improved ceramic plating allows delivery of hotter fuel. For each level of Enhanced Nozzles, the Perdition deals +4 fire damage.
Purchase DC: 17 (1, Mil+3), 20 (2, Mil+3), 24 (3, Mil+3)


These, taken in total, should be enough to give you the equipment for a Marine or Firebat. Comments are welcome!

Starcraft-RPG
2007-12-19, 02:34 PM
In case anyone is interested, we are working for several years now our own Starcraft RPG game, which isn't based on SRD. We had to create our own system in order to convert the RTS game into an RPG and we have done a pretty decent job. It is worth to check the game out. Our site is located at www.Starcraft-RPG.com. We'll be happy to see you there.

playerslayer
2008-01-12, 05:41 PM
check this one out.....

http://rapidshare.com/files/82526309/DONE.doc

a complete d20 campaign setting for starcraft 2

daemonwelsh
2008-10-25, 02:53 PM
Um, just a thought on your the Zerg classes/species, make each species of zerg a class, and at each level up, they get to pick a new class thing, so say they are larva at first, at second they can become a drone or a zergling, at second level they can become a devouring one/baneling/hydralisk(if they went drone) and so on. if they die, just put them at the same race, with a temporary negative to one of their scores(mental probably).

And to incorporate zerg into the party, just have them as pets, and disconnected from the overmind/kerrigen.
To explain that, maybe just have an extra egg that is produced at every rebirth, that way they can continue. the more times they die during a level, then the negative should be increased. Also you could allow at the time of death, a class change. makes it somewhat easier I think.

you could give the people that have them, a psionic link, make em like a familiar or something, and give it to another gamer... Personally I think that this is a wonderful idea, and that you guys should not stop anytime soon.