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View Full Version : If I could reboot and retcon a franchise...



Ichneumon
2009-07-14, 06:01 AM
What would it be?

I would like to retcon the Spiderman 3 film, reboot the original series of star trek and retcon everything that happened in the third season of heroes.

Kalbron
2009-07-14, 06:03 AM
*Insert 10,000+ names of various anime and manga series with horribly abused plotlines/endings here.*

J.Gellert
2009-07-14, 06:20 AM
I would scrap and re-write the last 30 minutes of Watchmen.

pita
2009-07-14, 06:28 AM
Heh. I'd re-do Watchmen by recasting the roles of Ozymandias and Silk Specter 2. I'd actually include some subtlety this time. And I'd hire Chris Nolan to direct.
I'd also restart Firefly, this time on HBO.

Black_Pants_Guy
2009-07-14, 06:29 AM
Star Wars 5, 6, 1, 2 and 3, Indianna Jones 4 and Hopefully by then I could buy the rights to a Mass Effect Movie. :smalltongue:

I'll explain all of it in a minute when i finish writing it all up.

Ichneumon
2009-07-14, 06:30 AM
I'd retcon the second season of Rome.

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-14, 06:38 AM
Reboot: Firefly. With the original actors.

Retcon: Star Wars episodes I-III, X-men III, Spiderman III, Terminator III, the new Bionic Woman series

factotum
2009-07-14, 06:39 AM
I'd redo the last two seasons of "Babylon 5" so they were the way they SHOULD have been (e.g. before the original network decided they only wanted to do 4 years not 5).

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-14, 06:48 AM
Another Reboot: Moonlight. Again, with the original cast.

Cubey
2009-07-14, 06:55 AM
I'd save my powers for later, wait until someone posts "I'd change the ending to Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann", and then use them to change it back to how it used to be.

Jayngfet
2009-07-14, 06:57 AM
I'd reboot toonami, removing the fourth incarnation and every trace thereof.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-14, 07:06 AM
I'd save my powers for later, wait until someone posts "I'd change the ending to Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann", and then use them to change it back to how it used to be.

Eh, some people like happy endings. Gainax wouldn't be Gainax without the Downer Ending and/or Gainax Ending though.

Personally, I'd reboot Reboot. I liked that show and I miss it.

Retcons? I have too many to mention.

Black_Pants_Guy
2009-07-14, 07:07 AM
I'd re-cast the child Version of Anakin Skywalker with some unknown but PROMISING kid, I'd use Kiera Knightly alone as Padme, I'd cast a real actor as Mace Windu, I'd cast Roy Khan as Adult Anakin, I'd explain Yoda's species, I'd keep Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor in their respective roles, some of the other hardly seen Jedi would have a larger role in the movies. I'd find some way to implement Dakota Fanning in the movies as a major Role and there would be 50% less 'special' effects.


In Indianna Jones I'd get Dennis Quaid to play the the lead with advisement from Harrison Ford, there would be a sequence at the end where a Shia Leboufe look-alike is killed by a giant Rock-man that looks like Optimus Prime called 'Goliath', of course the Movie would follow a Abrahamic Religion's artifact.

Of Course the Mass Effect Movie would be pure Science Fiction awesomeness with Gerard Butler cast as John Shepard, that chick that plays Vin Diesal's Girlfriend in the Fast and the Furious as Ashley Williams and Kiera Knightly as Liara, Liam Neeson as Garrus Vakarian and Jack Nickleson as Urdnot Wrex. I would know who I'd find to play Tali....:smallconfused::smallamused:

Cubey
2009-07-14, 07:12 AM
Eh, some people like happy endings. Gainax wouldn't be Gainax without the Downer Ending and/or Gainax Ending though.


It IS a happy ending. It's just that some people will cry if their favorite story doesn't end in a way so sweet that you could get nauseous, with good guys winning without having to make any sacrifices nor suffering any loses. If you ask me, any tries to "fix" what isn't broken here just cheapen the series, turning it into a story for little kids where the good guy wins not because he's smart, courageous or resourceful, but only because he's the good guy.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-14, 07:17 AM
It IS a happy ending.

I disagree. To me it's a downer ending because:
Simon's struggle to save Nia is ultimately irrelevant because she was going to die anyway. Simon wasn't in it to save the world at this point. That was just a side-effect of saving his amour. So her death at the end of the series also invalidates the deaths of everyone who died to save her as well, because they would not have died if the crew wasn't rushing out to save Nia. Now, had Nia been dead when they got there or simply never been taken over to begin with and the fight was against the Anti-Spiral campaign of slaughter frolm the start; Then I'd consider it a happy ending.


... I'd use Kiera Knightly ... Kiera Knightly ...

I've always hated Kiera Knightley.

JellyPooga
2009-07-14, 07:23 AM
I've always hated Kiera Knightley.

Gotta agree with this...if whe were any more wooden, you'd be able to use her as an ironing board. She, along with a couple of other actresses have ruined a great many otherwise really good films.

Kalbron
2009-07-14, 07:29 AM
Not to mention in regards to TTGL:

The hero goes on to become a bum after saving the universe. Seriously, what kind of broken aesop is that? "Work hard and do what you believe in and your wife will die and you'll live on the streets having been forgotten by mankind even though you saved it?"

Cubey
2009-07-14, 07:44 AM
TTGL:
You really take Simon for a more selfish individual than I do if you think he was doing it just to save Nia, and the universe was just a side effect. He's the man who, when given an option between ensuring happiness of only himself and his beloved one, or the rest of the universe, would... probably take a third option and try to save all, like he did in the finale. But if there really was no third option, he'd choose the universe. Also, he did save Nia - he rescued her from the Anti-Spiral's captivity. Her disappearance later was a foregone conclusion - Anti-Spirals stopped existing, so why shouldn't she, being one of them? It's like saying that Kamina shouldn't die when Thymilph killed him. Or maybe Simon should use Spiral Power and try to return them to life? And then what? Resurrect everyone who ever died? That would cause the Spiral Nemesis sooner than you can say "conservation of energy and matter"!

And Simon did NOT become a bum. He became a traveller, which is what he wanted. Did he look happy for you as the leader of the humans? For me, he looked dragged down by paperwork, his fame, and authority-related hassle. Remember that he loved the sky from the first moment he saw it. Being a lone walker under that very sky is the best thing he can hope for without Nia.
And I'm sure he neither forgot about his friends nor did they forget about him.

Lord of Rapture
2009-07-14, 07:47 AM
I would make it so that Code Geass R2 never happened. The executives wouldn't ruin the plot by forcing the writers into last-minute changes and "buy-our-toys" Gundam syndrome by making all the new Knightmares stupidly powerful and invincible compared to season one. And the characterization wouldn't be shot to hell. And there wouldn't be so many plot twists, and they'd be less stupid.

Also, I'd make Battle Moon Wars canon.:smalltongue:

bosssmiley
2009-07-14, 07:51 AM
I'd retcon the second season of Rome.

Nah, just sack the wooden, one-note tit who played Augustus II. Other than him it was fine. Vorena gets slapped sooner and harder. Moar James Purefoy. :smalltongue:

Mad Men: re-do the whole second series much sharper and wittier, and with Don being less of a wet blanket.

Star Wars: the prequel trilogy never happened. Jedi? Wookies, not Ewoks.

Hunter Noventa
2009-07-14, 07:55 AM
I would also reboot ReBoot. I miss that show.

I'd also like to reboot Johnny Quest. The Venture Brothers are a great parody of it, but doing the original premise with better writing in today's world would be pretty awesome. And none of that questworld BS from The Real Adventures.

Mass Effect would make a pretty awesome movie, but yeah, keep Kiera Knightley out of it. I don't follow actors/actresses too much, so I don't know who I'd replace her with, but I got more than enough of her in the Pirates trilogy.

Also, retconning the prequel trilogy of Star Wars to follow the established EU would be awesome in addition to most Black Pant's ideas, save for his obsession with Miss Knightley. The Death Star wasn't designed by a bunch of bug people dammit!

Ichneumon
2009-07-14, 07:56 AM
Nah, just sack the wooden, one-note tit who played Augustus II. Other than him it was fine. Vorena gets slapped sooner and harder. Moar James Purefoy. :smalltongue:

I also didn't like what they did with Lucius Vorenus and Titus Pullo, but I agree that most of the new actors were quite bad.

Also, about star wars I,II and III: I never understood why we had to wait 2.5 movies for Darth Vader to turn awesome when the prequels were supposed to be about Darth Vader.

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-14, 08:02 AM
I've always hated Kiera Knightley.

Funny, I have always loved her. I have not seen a bad performance from her, ever.

J.Gellert
2009-07-14, 08:14 AM
I also didn't like what they did with Lucius Vorenus and Titus Pullo, but I agree that most of the new actors were quite bad.

I would likely agree with you if I had managed to stand watching the entire 2nd season :smalltongue:

Ecalsneerg
2009-07-14, 09:03 AM
What would it be?

I would like to retcon the Spiderman 3 film, reboot the original series of star trek and retcon everything that happened in the third season of heroes.

Only the third season? I'd scrap the second too, and hold out for a bigger budget.

Linkavitch
2009-07-14, 09:07 AM
I'd re-cast the child Version of Anakin Skywalker with some unknown but PROMISING kid, I'd use Kiera Knightly alone as Padme, I'd cast a real actor as Mace Windu, I'd cast Roy Khan as Adult Anakin, I'd explain Yoda's species, I'd keep Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor in their respective roles, some of the other hardly seen Jedi would have a larger role in the movies. I'd find some way to implement Dakota Fanning in the movies as a major Role and there would be 50% less 'special' effects.


Agree'd except for Dakota Fanning.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-07-14, 09:09 AM
I'd reboot Kid Nation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kid_Nation) It may have been really controversial, but I enjoyed it.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-07-14, 09:14 AM
I'd redo Wolverine: Origins and change Wolverine's love interest back to Silver Fox, remove the connection with her being Emma Frost's sister, have them remove and replace Wolverine's memories earlier (like when they're inserting the Adamantium in the first place) rather than have that dumb idea about the bullet (then have Gambit, who he'd have met earlier, rediscover him along with John Wraith). And I'd take out the whole elderly farming couple and either replace them with a cameo for Mac and Heather Hudson or just have Wolverine steal clothes and a motorcycle from some random house. And there's none of this "no.... I'm better than you" ridiculousness, Wolverine just kicks Sabretooth's ass but the latter crawls away before he can finish him off.

I think other than everything just said, it was a fine movie although I know some people had even more problems with it than that.

Blackjackg
2009-07-14, 09:19 AM
The entire Marvel universe, from Issue 1 of whatever their first comic was.

I'd let the characters age naturally, wrap it up within 20 years, and only kill any given character once (well, I might kill Jean Grey twice, just for lulz).

Piedmon_Sama
2009-07-14, 09:27 AM
Then you'd accidentally end the Marvel Universe in 1959, before most of its characters are born. :|3

Namor's first appearance was canonically 1939, both in our world and Marvel's. Charles Xaviers' father was involved in nuclear testing in the 1940s, Charles had to have fought in Vietnam (originally Korea) before founding the X-Men; the earliest they could appear would be 1971. Which admittedly fits in with Giant-Size X-Men being in 1975. Colossus would still be in his 40's when he started dating Kitty Pryde in her teens though.

Blackjackg
2009-07-14, 09:37 AM
That's one of the great things about reboot-retcons. I can start things later. Besides, nothing saying we can't use flashbacks with longer-lived characters like Namor, Apocalypse and Wolverine (Even Captain America, though I admit the idea of Cap as a veteran of the war on terror has interesting possibilities). Just so long as those flashbacks don't creep through time or contradict each other the way Marvel has so often done.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-14, 10:06 AM
TTGL:
Or maybe Simon should use Spiral Power and try to return them to life? And then what? Resurrect everyone who ever died? That would cause the Spiral Nemesis sooner than you can say "conservation of energy and matter"!

And Simon did NOT become a bum.

More TTGL:
And yes. I think that'd be a happier ending as well. Simply reviving everyone and then stopping the Spiral collapse through sheer grit and willpower. It even fits in with the theme of the show. As is it's a downer ending, but that's fine because it's Gainax. If I watched a Gainax production and wasn't left either sad or confused, then I wouldn't be happy.

And yes, he became a bum. A 'traveler' is a nice way to say 'he's a guy who wanders around with no job, doesn't shower regularly and eats whatever he can get', which incidentally, is the same thing a bum does.

Kroy
2009-07-14, 10:22 AM
Reboot: Firefly
Retcon: Serenity

Ichneumon
2009-07-14, 10:27 AM
Only the third season? I'd scrap the second too, and hold out for a bigger budget.

what? No, the second was alright, they only had to stop it because if the writer's strike and all, it just had a slow start. Without a strike it would have been cool. But they need a bigger budget, we want a REAL showdown between heroes and villains and REAL deaths.

Prime32
2009-07-14, 11:23 AM
More TTGL:
And yes. I think that'd be a happier ending as well. Simply reviving everyone and then stopping the Spiral collapse through sheer grit and willpower. It even fits in with the theme of the show. As is it's a downer ending, but that's fine because it's Gainax. If I watched a Gainax production and wasn't left either sad or confused, then I wouldn't be happy.

And yes, he became a bum. A 'traveler' is a nice way to say 'he's a guy who wanders around with no job, doesn't shower regularly and eats whatever he can get', which incidentally, is the same thing a bum does.
That's what Simon wanted. He had nothing left to do at that point really. I mean, the guy started off with nothing - he doesn't want a fleet of solid gold Ferraris, and he knew from experience that he wouldn't make a good leader.

Personally though, I like to believe he went on to become Captain Falcon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb3ySqL084c&fmt=18). :smallbiggrin:
Come on: prominent chin, lives humbly despite his great potential wealth, physics-defying punch, speech about how the next generation will exceed the old, spinning?

Blackjackg
2009-07-14, 11:54 AM
what? No, the second was alright, they only had to stop it because if the writer's strike and all, it just had a slow start. Without a strike it would have been cool. But they need a bigger budget, we want a REAL showdown between heroes and villains and REAL deaths.

I definitely disagree. Scrap and rewrite the final episode of season 1, and cancel everything afterwards. Heroes was a one-season show. It should have stayed that way.

The J Pizzel
2009-07-14, 03:41 PM
I'd re-cast the child Version of Anakin Skywalker with some unknown but PROMISING kid, I'd use Kiera Knightly alone as Padme, I'd cast a real actor as Mace Windu, I'd cast Roy Khan as Adult Anakin, I'd explain Yoda's species, I'd keep Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor in their respective roles, some of the other hardly seen Jedi would have a larger role in the movies. I'd find some way to implement Dakota Fanning in the movies as a major Role and there would be 50% less 'special' effects.


In Indianna Jones I'd get Dennis Quaid to play the the lead with advisement from Harrison Ford, there would be a sequence at the end where a Shia Leboufe look-alike is killed by a giant Rock-man that looks like Optimus Prime called 'Goliath', of course the Movie would follow a Abrahamic Religion's artifact.

Of Course the Mass Effect Movie would be pure Science Fiction awesomeness with Gerard Butler cast as John Shepard, that chick that plays Vin Diesal's Girlfriend in the Fast and the Furious as Ashley Williams and Kiera Knightly as Liara, Liam Neeson as Garrus Vakarian and Jack Nickleson as Urdnot Wrex. I would know who I'd find to play Tali....:smallconfused::smallamused:

You win this thread...and the internet (minus the whole Kiera Knightly thing)

Lord Seth
2009-07-14, 04:53 PM
What would it be?

I would like to retcon the Spiderman 3 film, reboot the original series of star trek and retcon everything that happened in the third season of heroes.Just season three of Heroes? I would've gone back and fixed season two AND season three...


Not to mention in regards to TTGL:

The hero goes on to become a bum after saving the universe. Seriously, what kind of broken aesop is that? "Work hard and do what you believe in and your wife will die and you'll live on the streets having been forgotten by mankind even though you saved it?"Simon choose to do that. To say it's a "broken aesop" because he "lives on the streets having been forgotten by mankind even though you saved it" is ridiculous, because Simon choose for that to happen. What's so wrong about that?

EDIT: As to me on rebooting: Assuming the quality would remain the same and it wouldn't be Family Guy all over again (good show gets cancelled, comes back, then decides not to go downhill but instead jump off a cliff), I'd bring back Megas XLR and BoBoBo-Bo Bo-BoBo.

EDIT2: And I'd retcon Avatar season three. I wouldn't have half the season be filler, and the finale wouldn't have the plot holes, deus ex machinas, or setups with no payoff.

Tengu_temp
2009-07-14, 05:12 PM
I liked Avatar season 3 filler. What I'd retcon is to change the (spoiler, highlight to see) Lion Turtle's voice, to make it actually possible to understand.

MCerberus
2009-07-14, 05:33 PM
I'd like to retcon everything from the matrix after the first movie.
Command and Conquer needs a reboot after EA took a machete to what little made sense in the series and made everything bland.



I'd also like to retcon Ocean's 12 and 13 out of my mind, but those scars run deep.

Indon
2009-07-14, 06:01 PM
I'd retcon the Tenshi Muyo serieses (serieii?), and make it one series.

WitchSlayer
2009-07-14, 06:33 PM
I want to say reboot the Superman movie franchise, but I know the next person would just mess it up.

Lord Seth
2009-07-14, 08:38 PM
I liked Avatar season 3 filler. What I'd retcon is to change the (spoiler, highlight to see) Lion Turtle's voice, to make it actually possible to understand.Honestly, I could've taken a few of the filler episodes, it's just that they put them all in a row, and had some of the worst episodes in the series. It was absolutely abysmal pacing; it would've been much smarter to put Day of Black Sun earlier in the season. I don't know if that was executive meddling or what, but it definitely messed up the season's pacing: It went at a snail's pace before Day of Black Sun, then was a bit rushed after it.

You didn't really miss much from the Lion Turtle, really, though I don't recall having too much trouble understanding it. What I did have trouble understanding is why the writers took an extremely contrived dilemma, made a huge deal out of it, then decided that after all that they wouldn't bother giving it a real resolution and instead handed a deus ex machina to the main character to avoid the whole thing.

Demons_eye
2009-07-14, 09:07 PM
I would reboot cow boy bebop. One of the best shows ever.

Kalbron
2009-07-14, 09:12 PM
Simon choose to do that. To say it's a "broken aesop" because he "lives on the streets having been forgotten by mankind even though you saved it" is ridiculous, because Simon choose for that to happen. What's so wrong about that?


What's wrong with is the fact that the entire series has been about doing the impossible and going beyond reason and logic. Your girlfriend has been solely sustained by her own willpower and spiral energy? Use that same damn energy and your own willpower to keep her alive! You can teleport using only your willpower and a giant mecha? Use that power to keep helping humanity and in doing so he can wander the universe viewing many skies!

Who says he needs to be in charge? He can just act as a figurehead/inspiration like Kamina did.

All that that ending showed was that, it wasn't the anti-spirals, reason or logic which defeated Simon. It was Simon himself chickening out and backing away from saving his girl and growing depressed from that. So he became a bum that nobody would recognise as a hero and nobody really needed. The end.

I would definitely label that as a very broken aesop.

So yes. Definitely rewrite that ending.

Demons_eye
2009-07-14, 09:30 PM
What's wrong with is the fact that the entire series has been about doing the impossible and going beyond reason and logic. Your girlfriend has been solely sustained by her own willpower and spiral energy? Use that same damn energy and your own willpower to keep her alive! You can teleport using only your willpower and a giant mecha? Use that power to keep helping humanity and in doing so he can wander the universe viewing many skies!

Who says he needs to be in charge? He can just act as a figurehead/inspiration like Kamina did.

All that that ending showed was that, it wasn't the anti-spirals, reason or logic which defeated Simon. It was Simon himself chickening out and backing away from saving his girl and growing depressed from that. So he became a bum that nobody would recognise as a hero and nobody really needed. The end.

I would definitely label that as a very broken aesop.

So yes. Definitely rewrite that ending.



Simon wanted what he got tho. He learned half way in the show you can not let some ones death hold you back.

Black_Pants_Guy
2009-07-15, 02:30 AM
Agree'd except for Dakota Fanning.

You win this thread...and the internet (minus the whole Kiera Knightly thing)
I'm only doing it because she is hot, not because she could attribute anything useful (Yes; both of them... and I made the whole Kiera Knightly = Padme thing because she was the Handmaiden in the first one.).:smalltongue:

Man, I've been drooling over this script for Mass Effect I've neem working on all day.:smallbiggrin:

Prime32
2009-07-15, 05:47 AM
TTGL

What's wrong with is the fact that the entire series has been about doing the impossible and going beyond reason and logic. Your girlfriend has been solely sustained by her own willpower and spiral energy? Use that same damn energy and your own willpower to keep her alive! You can teleport using only your willpower and a giant mecha? Use that power to keep helping humanity and in doing so he can wander the universe viewing many skies!Because bringing everyone dead back to life would mean that humanity is living in the past and no longer moving forward, which is the very essence of Spiral Power. And if he kept doing everything for humanity you'd just get a situation like Superman: Red Son. He kinda promised that he wouldn't deliberately hasten the Spiral Nemesis.


Who says he needs to be in charge? He can just act as a figurehead/inspiration like Kamina did.Kamina is dead. He's no longer there. He's Simon. Not his brother Kamina. He is himself, Simon the Digger!

Yeah, that worked for Kamina, but Simon could never do it.


All that that ending showed was that, it wasn't the anti-spirals, reason or logic which defeated Simon. It was Simon himself chickening out and backing away from saving his girl and growing depressed from that.Except that he isn't depressed. He's just a guy with simple pleasures, like digging holes.


So he became a bum that nobody would recognise as a hero and nobody really needed. The end.Noone did need him any more. He's a warrior, not a diplomat.

Besides, he probably pays visits to Rossiu and Viral all the time.

Closet_Skeleton
2009-07-15, 06:28 AM
Look at it from a stereotyped eastern philsophy (by which I mean my poor understanding of zen buddhism) perspective. Simon has achieved enlightenment, he has no attatchments and no sense of self. Fame and recognition are pointless to him because they weren't what he was saving the world to gain. He knows his girlfriend died content and happy so the only reason for him to try and ressurect her would be for his own gratification, which is selfish and pointless. He looks depressed because he has a sense of perfect calm. An enlightened person has no need for ego-gratification like shouting your name at people and no need for material reward.

He's surpassed Kamina, Kamina's philosophy was slightly flawed and immature, while Simon's philosophy at the end is enlightened and mature, so it's not a broken aesop if the ending doesn't fit Kamina's philosophy.

It's like in Star Wars, where Obi Wan and Yoda couldn't defeat the Sith, but their disciple Luke managed to surpass them and defeat the Sith by not fighting (he gives into anger and defeats Darth Vader in a duel, but that's not what destroys the Sith).

Hyozo
2009-07-15, 02:31 PM
Personally, I'd reboot Reboot. I liked that show and I miss it.

This, at the very least they should have been allowed to finish season 4.

Lord Seth
2009-07-15, 02:43 PM
Look at it from a stereotyped eastern philsophy (by which I mean my poor understanding of zen buddhism) perspective. Simon has achieved enlightenment, he has no attatchments and no sense of self. Fame and recognition are pointless to him because they weren't what he was saving the world to gain. He knows his girlfriend died content and happy so the only reason for him to try and ressurect her would be for his own gratification, which is selfish and pointless. He looks depressed because he has a sense of perfect calm. An enlightened person has no need for ego-gratification like shouting your name at people and no need for material reward.

He's surpassed Kamina, Kamina's philosophy was slightly flawed and immature, while Simon's philosophy at the end is enlightened and mature, so it's not a broken aesop if the ending doesn't fit Kamina's philosophy.

It's like in Star Wars, where Obi Wan and Yoda couldn't defeat the Sith, but their disciple Luke managed to surpass them and defeat the Sith by not fighting (he gives into anger and defeats Darth Vader in a duel, but that's not what destroys the Sith).Suggestion: If you're going to spoiler something so people don't get spoiled if they don't want to, try to make it clear what you're spoiling, or else there's really no hint as to whether you'd be spoiling yourself or not if you looked at it.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-07-15, 02:49 PM
I'd reboot Dominic Deegan (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/); no other author has wasted as much potential as Mookie has with his premise.

I'd Retcon "Tenchi in Tokyo" out of existence. What an abomination :smallsigh:

I think the other incarnations all had their own charm. Even "Pretty Sami" :smallbiggrin:

The list of anime I'd Retcon is a mile long, so I won't get into it. Why must so many series have such crappy endings! :smallannoyed:

Erothayce
2009-07-15, 03:02 PM
I'd re-cast the child Version of Anakin Skywalker with some unknown but PROMISING kid, I'd use Kiera Knightly alone as Padme, I'd cast a real actor as Mace Windu, I'd cast Roy Khan as Adult Anakin, I'd explain Yoda's species, I'd keep Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor in their respective roles, some of the other hardly seen Jedi would have a larger role in the movies. I'd find some way to implement Dakota Fanning in the movies as a major Role and there would be 50% less 'special' effects.


In Indianna Jones I'd get Dennis Quaid to play the the lead with advisement from Harrison Ford, there would be a sequence at the end where a Shia Leboufe look-alike is killed by a giant Rock-man that looks like Optimus Prime called 'Goliath', of course the Movie would follow a Abrahamic Religion's artifact.

I'm sorry but Dakota Fanning in anything makes me want to hunt down the people who cast her and beat them unmercifully. And anyone who isn't Harrison Ford playing Indiana Jones means that it isn't Indiana it's just a random action flick.

xPANCAKEx
2009-07-15, 04:53 PM
retcon - voyager - i'd like to have seen it done dark-n-grim like BSG, instead of happy clappy... but it was a product of the pc 90s. That and they should have killed janeway

retcon - BSG - redo the end please. Just felt like a mess and trying too hard to tie everything up and provide a "big twist"

Closet_Skeleton
2009-07-15, 05:14 PM
I think the other incarnations all had their own charm. Even "Pretty Sami" :smallbiggrin:

The Pretty Sammy OVA is an okay parody, the tv series is just an average magical girl series.

Zeful
2009-07-15, 06:26 PM
What I did have trouble understanding is why the writers took an extremely contrived dilemma, made a huge deal out of it, then decided that after all that they wouldn't bother giving it a real resolution and instead handed a deus ex machina to the main character to avoid the whole thing.

Because without that Deus Ex, there is no happy ending. Besides Aang was looking for any way to avoid killing, so the Lion Turtle isn't actually as much of a Deus Ex as people claim.

As for myself, I'd retcon the Ranma 1/2 anime out of existence and change the ending of the manga so that Ranma and Akane kiss.

Xondoure
2009-07-15, 06:45 PM
Honestly, I could've taken a few of the filler episodes, it's just that they put them all in a row, and had some of the worst episodes in the series. It was absolutely abysmal pacing; it would've been much smarter to put Day of Black Sun earlier in the season. I don't know if that was executive meddling or what, but it definitely messed up the season's pacing: It went at a snail's pace before Day of Black Sun, then was a bit rushed after it.

You didn't really miss much from the Lion Turtle, really, though I don't recall having too much trouble understanding it. What I did have trouble understanding is why the writers took an extremely contrived dilemma, made a huge deal out of it, then decided that after all that they wouldn't bother giving it a real resolution and instead handed a deus ex machina to the main character to avoid the whole thing.

I have trouble seeing it as a deus ex, because the way I saw it it was a way to show that Aang had finally found a route to a true victory, where all of his past selves had failed. More of a coming into his own then a way to cop out of the dilemma. Besides, did you really expect him to be forced to kill the guy in a story meant for kids?

Mr.Moron
2009-07-15, 06:57 PM
I would just love to pretend like the second half of Star Ocean 3 just didn't happen.

Lord Seth
2009-07-15, 07:17 PM
Because without that Deus Ex, there is no happy ending.Uh, yeah there would have been. Aang kills Ozai (and given that Ozai was pretty much as close to Hitler as you can get on a kid's show, I'm not exactly sad about it) and the world is saved. How is that not happy? Okay, maybe not super-happy, but it wouldn't have made it a sad ending.

Or, y'know, they could've just not made such a giant deal of the dilemma that made no sense to begin with (see my explanation at the end), so then it wouldn't have been such a bad deus ex machina.


Besides Aang was looking for any way to avoid killing, so the Lion Turtle isn't actually as much of a Deus Ex as people claim.It came out of nowhere with no buildup and no hints, and invalidated the whole blasted dilemma they spent so much time on. It's the definition of a deus ex machina.


I have trouble seeing it as a deus ex, because the way I saw it it was a way to show that Aang had finally found a route to a true victory, where all of his past selves had failed. More of a coming into his own then a way to cop out of the dilemma.Aang did not find a route to a true victory or come into his own. He was given the solution by the writers. He did absolutely nothing to earn it, he just happened to be in the right place at the right time (and did they EVER explain where he was or how he got there?) and lucky him, the one thing he encounters happens to have the solution to his problem. That's not earning anything. That's like if a guy passes me on the street and gives me a million dollars; I didn't earn anything, and neither did Aang. He was given energybending by the writers so they could duck the dilemma they spent so much time setting up.

It would be like at the end of Order of the Stick if Xykon was about to win, then Rich showed up, handed Roy a super-mega-ultrasword, and then he took down Xykon in one hit with it. That's pretty much what happened!


Besides, did you really expect him to be forced to kill the guy in a story meant for kids?I hear the "it's a kid's show" excuse a lot in regards to this. Here is my response: If they wouldn't or couldn't go through with it, why'd they bring it up? Why'd they make such a big deal of the dilemma if they were going to do a cop out? All the time that was wasted on Aang angsting about it could've been allocated to parts of the finale that could've used more time, like the ending which leaves too many things unresolved. Whether Aang killed Ozai or not, he should've had to choose between them if such a big deal was made out of it.

And the dilemma doesn't even make sense! Aang doesn't want to kill Ozai. And this wasn't brought up in Day of Black Sun because...? I can see only two options: Either every character was an idiot and no one thought that maybe they should mention to Aang he might have to kill Ozai, or Aang had no problem then but suddenly does now and is thus apparently schizophrenic. Or maybe it was just contrived writing.

And why did they have to kill Ozai? Because of his firebending? It's been established it's possible to imprison a firebender. It's also been established that as bending relies so much on one's hands, if you crush their hands, that stops the bending (some guys almost did this to Iroh in an early episode). A bit brutal, sure, but if they didn't want to kill him, there's an option right there.

So obviously, the dilemma about whether to kill Ozai was so critical that they had to ignore the fact it didn't make sense. Except then they decided not to go through with it. Why ignore continuity for the sake of a dilemma if you're not even going to go through with it? And why spend so much time on it?

Mind you, there's more things wrong with the finale than just spiritbending, but I should probably save my complaints on the subject for a more relevant thread.

Dragonmuncher
2009-07-15, 07:24 PM
Hmm... I'd actually like to reboot a very little-known show called Three. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_%28TV_series%29)

It was about three super-criminals (Um... a suave jewel thief, a burly computer hacker, and a sexy cat burglar... I think) who are blackmailed by a seemingly-omniscient government agency to do missions for them. I remember it being witty and entertaining, although this was a while back...

The missions were about "preserving the American Way of Life," which could have some interesting applications, I think. Some missions could be straight-up "good-guy" stuff, but some could be stuff like corporate espionage, smear campaigns, or whatever.

The tone of the show was very light, but there was an overarching plot with the Agency. I think it could be done very well today, especially since the current trend has been towards smarter, wittier dialogue.
___

Also- retcon the last two seasons of Buffy, and the last season of Angel. Barring a few stellar episodes, the last two seasons of Buffy really weren't that good, and the Angel season felt a bit compressed (I think I read somewhere that it was actually intended for one more season, but then they got canceled so Joss had to cram?)

A live-action reboot of X-Men Evolution might be awesome. Kinda the same setup as Buffy- maybe make Prof X an actual high school professor. Have more emphasis on juggling the secrecy schtick that Buffy sort of left behind after a while (not that that was a bad thing- end of s3 was awesome- but secrecy can be neat, too)

I was about to say a reboot of Animaniacs, but probably something similar but in the same vein would be better.

Reboot of Animorphs. Make it a bit less monster-of-the-week, and up the psychological horror a bit. Basically, turn it from an awesome series for mature 12 year olds, into an awesome series for 16+.

Zeful
2009-07-15, 07:57 PM
Uh, yeah there would have been. Aang kills Ozai (and given that Ozai was pretty much as close to Hitler as you can get on a kid's show, I'm not exactly sad about it) and the world is saved. How is that not happy? Okay, maybe not super-happy, but it wouldn't have made it a sad ending.Aang is the main character, if he killed Ozai, he would be very depressed the next morning in Ba Sing Se (I assume it's the next morning at least) doubly so with everyone telling him what a great job he did purposefully killing someone with his bare hands. He was upset after the Koizilla incident, where he could rationalize it as something he didn't choose. There's nothing short of Olympic level mental gymnastics to rationalize to himself that killing Ozai nothing but murder. Given that he admits that he's never intentionally killed anyone, and he's depressed after being forced to kill (Koizilla, "The Avatar State Part 2"), that when he stopped himself from killing Ozai, if he followed through, he would be very depressed, which would drag down the ending. Maybe not a Downer Ending exactly, but not exactly a happy one.


And the dilemma doesn't even make sense! Aang doesn't want to kill Ozai. And this wasn't brought up in Day of Black Sun because...? I can see only two options: Either every character was an idiot and no one thought that maybe they should mention to Aang he might have to kill Ozai, or Aang had no problem then but suddenly does now and is thus apparently schizophrenic. Or maybe it was just contrived writing.

Ozai was powerless, and could possibly be captured or restrained without meaningless violence. Azula blew both those assertions out of the water with her powerless interference and later escape when her hands and feet were bound. It seems reasonable to speculate that Aang never intended to kill Ozai at all on The Day of Black Sun and was going to simply encase him in stone and imprison him somewhere.

Lord Seth
2009-07-15, 08:24 PM
Aang is the main character, if he killed Ozai, he would be very depressed the next morning in Ba Sing Se (I assume it's the next morning at least) doubly so with everyone telling him what a great job he did purposefully killing someone with his bare hands. He was upset after the Koizilla incident, where he could rationalize it as something he didn't choose. There's nothing short of Olympic level mental gymnastics to rationalize to himself that killing Ozai nothing but murder.Killing Ozai is not murder. The term "murder" means to kill someone illegally, or at least with some kind of malice. Killing a guy who wants to commit genocide and who's also trying to kill you fits no definition of murder I can think of. He would've killed Ozai, but he wouldn't have murdered him. I hate how people throw out the word "murder" to get an emotional reaction even though it's definitely not murder.


Given that he admits that he's never intentionally killed anyone, and he's depressed after being forced to kill (Koizilla, "The Avatar State Part 2"), that when he stopped himself from killing Ozai, if he followed through, he would be very depressed, which would drag down the ending. Maybe not a Downer Ending exactly, but not exactly a happy one.I'll disagree with you on this, but even if you're right, this brings up my point: If they didn't want Aang to kill Ozai or they planned to do that but Nickelodeon said no, why make such a big deal about the thing if they were going to do a cop-out? I was actually interested in seeing which way it would go, which is why I couldn't believe what was happening on screen when they pulled that deus ex machina out. (and that wasn't the only one DEM--the Avatar State popping up even after it was said he couldn't do it again was another big deus ex machina)


Ozai was powerless, and could possibly be captured or restrained without meaningless violence. Azula blew both those assertions out of the water with her powerless interference and later escape when her hands and feet were bound.I can't remember this offhand, could you refresh my memory on when this happened with Azula so I could check the context? And at any rate, like I said: If the problem was they absolutely had to get rid of his firebending (even though they really didn't), they just have to remove the use of his hands. Cutting them off is probably too gruesome, but crushing them seems okay enough.


It seems reasonable to speculate that Aang never intended to kill Ozai at all on The Day of Black Sun and was going to simply encase him in stone and imprison him somewhere.Okay then. If that was his plan then, then why wouldn't it work now? Why wouldn't he at least bring it up? Again, as I've said: It's contrived writing. The fact that they wanted this dilemma so much that they ignored how it didn't fit with previous episodes just makes it all the more infuriating that they did such a blatant cop-out.

Satyr
2009-07-16, 03:55 AM
I have a strong dislike against tacked-on, artificial happy endings. I can only think of a very few stories which would not have been much more intense, dramatic and touching - in other words just plain better - without a more ambivalent ending.


When in doubt, kill the protagonist. Especially in anything targeted at a younger audience. Children should learn from early on, that life is not guaranteed to be always happy.

I hated the lion turtle in Avatar. With a passion. Best ending for the show would have been when Ozai kills Aang while he is in Avatar state (and therefore destroys the Avatar forever) but is so much weakened thaat the rest of the Gaang can overpower him. End scene of a heroic funeral and an ocean of flowers on Aang's grave, everybody cries (including the viewers) and you have an instant classic at hand.


Star Trek Voyager is another exercise in wasted potential. Seriously, the basic concept would have been an awesome foundation for a series, if they had dared to implement a stronger red line (I don't like the episodic structure much) and have tried to include at least a bit decay of the ship, the crew and the crew's psyche. Asking questions of following the protocol or just survive, making deals with the devil and discover strange and exotic cultures. Voyager made right would have been an awesome series.

I also would like to retcon and reboot the Alien franchise, ignoring the (boring) 3rd movie, the (cheesy) 4th one and the just plain terrible AvP movies. Aliens was an awesome movie. The AvP computer games were awesome. So much wasted potential is just depressing.

thegurullamen
2009-07-16, 04:34 AM
Movie version of The Stand. Also, The Pre-trilogy and any and all Shadowrun video games. Actually, scratch that last one: there aren't any.

Also also, I'd like to see a Star Trek series in the same vein as Abrahms' movie.

Also also also, I'd like to see any old series retooled by Ronald Moore again.

TSED
2009-07-16, 04:57 AM
Might & Magic games. Retcon 8 and past, reboot some new ones.


The old X-Men cartoon from the 90s.
Same with Bump In The Night.

Monkey Island, retcon 3 and 4 out and keep it with Tim Schafer. I know that totally wouldn't work for lots of reasons but I can dream.

Cubey
2009-07-16, 05:10 AM
I have a strong dislike against tacked-on, artificial happy endings. I can only think of a very few stories which would not have been much more intense, dramatic and touching - in other words just plain better - without a more ambivalent ending.
Yes. The hero should win for reasons other than "He should win because he's the good guy, duh". And sacrifices taken along the way make the story more dramatic.



When in doubt, kill the protagonist. Especially in anything targeted at a younger audience. Children should learn from early on, that life is not guaranteed to be always happy.

I hated the lion turtle in Avatar. With a passion. Best ending for the show would have been when Ozai kills Aang while he is in Avatar state (and therefore destroys the Avatar forever) but is so much weakened thaat the rest of the Gaang can overpower him. End scene of a heroic funeral and an ocean of flowers on Aang's grave, everybody cries (including the viewers) and you have an instant classic at hand.

WAIT WAIT WAIT. So an artificial tacked-on happy ending is a bad idea, but an artificial tacked-on downer ending (or at least the hero dying, which is still quite a downer) is suddenly a great idea?



I also would like to retcon and reboot the Alien franchise, ignoring the (boring) 3rd movie, the (cheesy) 4th one and the just plain terrible AvP movies. Aliens was an awesome movie. The AvP computer games were awesome. So much wasted potential is just depressing.
But I have to agree on this.

Black_Pants_Guy
2009-07-16, 06:08 AM
And anyone who isn't Harrison Ford playing Indiana Jones means that it isn't Indiana it's just a random action flick.

Well why don't you provide the Time Machine then?:smallconfused::smallamused:

xPANCAKEx
2009-07-16, 07:17 AM
I also would like to retcon and reboot the Alien franchise, ignoring the (boring) 3rd movie, the (cheesy) 4th one and the just plain terrible AvP movies. Aliens was an awesome movie. The AvP computer games were awesome. So much wasted potential is just depressing.

with AvP - theres been so many scripts put forward over the years its a shame they plummed for one of the worst of the lot... the 2nd movie had some real potential (and on paper should have been the first film), but it just devolved into being rubbish

chiasaur11
2009-07-16, 11:26 AM
Well why don't you provide the Time Machine then?:smallconfused::smallamused:

Because then somebody will try to destroy all coat hangers, giving Hitler an unstoppable dinosaur army.

One of the most basic rules of time travel.

Zeful
2009-07-16, 12:09 PM
Killing Ozai is not murder. The term "murder" means to kill someone illegally, or at least with some kind of malice. Killing a guy who wants to commit genocide and who's also trying to kill you fits no definition of murder I can think of. He would've killed Ozai, but he wouldn't have murdered him. I hate how people throw out the word "murder" to get an emotional reaction even though it's definitely not murder.Aang doesn't seem to accept the concept of justified killing, as it goes against his teachings as an airbender monk. So to him killing Ozai is murder.


I'll disagree with you on this, but even if you're right, this brings up my point: If they didn't want Aang to kill Ozai or they planned to do that but Nickelodeon said no, why make such a big deal about the thing if they were going to do a cop-out?Maybe because it wasn't going to be a cop-out? I don't know what happens behind the scenes, I can guess.


(and that wasn't the only one DEM--the Avatar State popping up even after it was said he couldn't do it again was another big deus ex machina) You mean the season 2 finale? That was explained two or three episodes earlier.


I can't remember this offhand, could you refresh my memory on when this happened with Azula so I could check the context? And at any rate, like I said: If the problem was they absolutely had to get rid of his firebending (even though they really didn't), they just have to remove the use of his hands. Cutting them off is probably too gruesome, but crushing them seems okay enough.First, Firebending is based off the breath, so in order to stop Ozai's firebending you'd have to keep him from breathing. As for what I mentioned with Azula, Day of Black Sun Part 2, she, while totally powerless, dodges everything three separate benders are throwing at her for well over a minute. Then with her hands and feet bound and almost no leverage for movement, once her firebending turns back on, she blows her way free of her restraints without visually moving.


Best ending for the show would have been when Ozai kills Aang while he is in Avatar state (and therefore destroys the Avatar forever) but is so much weakened thaat the rest of the Gaang can overpower him. End scene of a heroic funeral and an ocean of flowers on Aang's grave, everybody cries (including the viewers) and you have an instant classic at hand.You are aware that Katara was busy fighting Azula and/or cheering on Zuko? And the only people available to help were a blind earthbender who relies on contact with earth or metal to see (Ozai can fly, she's useless), a fighter who lost both his weapons, and a fighter without weapons. Even if Aang removed a limb from Ozai, he's still powerful enough to kill a weaponless Sokka, Suki and Toph, easily. So it wouldn't be "Aang and Ozai die, everyone else lives happily ever after." it'd be "Aang dies, Ozai genocides the Earth Kingdom and takes over the world."

Lord Seth
2009-07-16, 04:03 PM
Aang doesn't seem to accept the concept of justified killing, as it goes against his teachings as an airbender monk. So to him killing Ozai is murder.Huh, never mind the fact that when he talked to a previous Air Nomad Avatar, she flat-out said it was permissible in this case because--gasp!--the world was more important than Aang's personal problems.


Maybe because it wasn't going to be a cop-out? I don't know what happens behind the scenes, I can guess.You seem to have missed what I was saying. I was saying that they made a big deal of it in the episode, then did a cop-out. If they were going to do a cop-out, they shouldn't have made a big deal out of it and built it up, especially because--as I've said before--the whole dilemma is contrived. They spent a lot of time building up a dilemma, then did a cop-out. If they were originally planning to not do a cop-out but were told they couldn't force Aang to choose, then they should've changed their plans.


You mean the season 2 finale? That was explained two or three episodes earlier.Er...what? They said at the start of season three, I believe, that the Avatar State was gone. Given that the whole thing was overpowered anyway, I wasn't exactly sad about it. The fact they bring it back with no explanation whatsoever is stupid and a deus ex machina. It's bad writing.


First, Firebending is based off the breath, so in order to stop Ozai's firebending you'd have to keep him from breathing. As for what I mentioned with Azula, Day of Black Sun Part 2, she, while totally powerless, dodges everything three separate benders are throwing at her for well over a minute. Then with her hands and feet bound and almost no leverage for movement, once her firebending turns back on, she blows her way free of her restraints without visually moving.I'll have to check on that myself to see how it was. But I should notice that two Earth Kingdom shmucks were able to stop Iroh's firebending without too much trouble, and it is possible to imprison firebenders as has been shown.

Incidentally, it doesn't even make sense why they made such a big deal about how Aang had to kill Ozai. The only reason I believe was given was when Zuko told him Aang had to kill Ozai before Ozai killed him. But...Aang beat Ozai into submission. Why did he need to kill him still? Actually, now that I think about it, the whole battle against Ozai was kind of pointless, because the important thing was saving the Earth Kingdom, and the fight against Ozai didn't have anything to do with that. So again, this dilemma was so important that they decided to ignore all the ways it doesn't make sense, and then they decide not to go through with it? If you feel something is so important to the story that you're willing to ignore continuity to get it in, then actually go somewhere with it instead of saying "oh, it didn't matter at all anyway."

Zeful
2009-07-16, 04:37 PM
Huh, never mind the fact that when he talked to a previous Air Nomad Avatar, she flat-out said it was permissible in this case because--gasp!--the world was more important than Aang's personal problems.But it was one person telling him to toss his beliefs aside for the betterment of mankind. It simply doesn't work that way. I could tell you that cannibalism and incest are okay, but are you honestly going to believe me?


You seem to have missed what I was saying. I was saying that they made a big deal of it in the episode, then did a cop-out. If they were going to do a cop-out, they shouldn't have made a big deal out of it and built it up, especially because--as I've said before--the whole dilemma is contrived. They spent a lot of time building up a dilemma, then did a cop-out. If they were originally planning to not do a cop-out but were told they couldn't force Aang to choose, then they should've changed their plans.And how long did the animation take? Maybe a couple of months? They could have done half the episode when Nick called up and said "No good, do something else". Again I don't know what happened behind the scenes.


Er...what? They said at the start of season three, I believe, that the Avatar State was gone. Given that the whole thing was overpowered anyway, I wasn't exactly sad about it. The fact they bring it back with no explanation whatsoever is stupid and a deus ex machina. It's bad writing.I see. There was Katara's comment in that episode, the flashback caused by the "healing session". Aang assumes he died, a fact left deliberately ambiguous. But then the Oasis water with unexplained powers was almost immediately used in his treatment, so the line is muddied even further.


I'll have to check on that myself to see how it was. But I should notice that two Earth Kingdom shmucks were able to stop Iroh's firebending without too much trouble, and it is possible to imprison firebenders as has been shown.Which Earth Kingdom schmucks? The ones that captured Iroh bathing in Season 1. Or the Dai Le holding sharp crystals to his neck whom were going to kill him if Zuko attacked Azula or he did anything other the dispense advice and breathe normally?


Incidentally, it doesn't even make sense why they made such a big deal about how Aang had to kill Ozai. The only reason I believe was given was when Zuko told him Aang had to kill Ozai before Ozai killed him. But...Aang beat Ozai into submission. Why did he need to kill him still? Actually, now that I think about it, the whole battle against Ozai was kind of pointless, because the important thing was saving the Earth Kingdom, and the fight against Ozai didn't have anything to do with that. So again, this dilemma was so important that they decided to ignore all the ways it doesn't make sense, and then they decide not to go through with it? If you feel something is so important to the story that you're willing to ignore continuity to get it in, then actually go somewhere with it instead of saying "oh, it didn't matter at all anyway."
How is the fight with Ozai unimportant? Aang was trying to prevent the single most powerful Firebender in the world from torching a country, if Aang failed to get his attention, or lost, Ozai would have finished the introduction to the invasion of the Earth Kingdom on his own (which is what the mass torching was mind you).

Reverent-One
2009-07-16, 04:58 PM
You seem to have missed what I was saying. I was saying that they made a big deal of it in the episode, then did a cop-out. If they were going to do a cop-out, they shouldn't have made a big deal out of it and built it up, especially because--as I've said before--the whole dilemma is contrived. They spent a lot of time building up a dilemma, then did a cop-out. If they were originally planning to not do a cop-out but were told they couldn't force Aang to choose, then they should've changed their plans.

Except they didn't just cop-out. After talking with the past avatars, Aang decided that he was going to have to kill Ozai. Now, with no way that's going to be allowed on a Nick show, they afterwards introduce a method for him to get away with not killing him, but there's not much they can do about that. But Aang does solve the dilemma before the cop-out comes in.


Er...what? They said at the start of season three, I believe, that the Avatar State was gone. Given that the whole thing was overpowered anyway, I wasn't exactly sad about it. The fact they bring it back with no explanation whatsoever is stupid and a deus ex machina. It's bad writing.

The problem was his chakras were locked after getting hit by Azula's lightning, the blow he took to the exact same spot when fighting Ozai forced it open. Lucky? Sure, but such last second lucky breaks are pretty standard in the action/adventure media.

Weirdlet
2009-07-16, 05:17 PM
with AvP - theres been so many scripts put forward over the years its a shame they plummed for one of the worst of the lot... the 2nd movie had some real potential (and on paper should have been the first film), but it just devolved into being rubbish

I would like to speak up from the other side of the equation and say that I would reboot the Predator franchise, without this Alien crossover nonsense. Or if I had to, I'd see it done in a way that gave equal badassery and acting skills to both monsters, was neither defanged nor so horribly meanspirited as the AVP films (the second of which never happened, ever), and got the blasted effects right.

Lord Seth
2009-07-16, 05:22 PM
But it was one person telling him to toss his beliefs aside for the betterment of mankind. It simply doesn't work that way. I could tell you that cannibalism and incest are okay, but are you honestly going to believe me?If (presumably) millions of people would be killed otherwise? Yeah, I'd probably listen to you.


And how long did the animation take? Maybe a couple of months? They could have done half the episode when Nick called up and said "No good, do something else". Again I don't know what happened behind the scenes.Before they animated it, they'd have to write it. And before they wrote the episode, they would've had to make an outline and pitch it to Nickelodeon. If they did indeed plan to go through with it and Nickelodeon said no, there'd be no excuse to not change things at that point.


I see. There was Katara's comment in that episode, the flashback caused by the "healing session". Aang assumes he died, a fact left deliberately ambiguous. But then the Oasis water with unexplained powers was almost immediately used in his treatment, so the line is muddied even further.None of that changes the fact that the Avatar State returning comes out of nowhere, was never foreshadowed, and wasn't even explained. It just...pops up.


Which Earth Kingdom schmucks? The ones that captured Iroh bathing in Season 1. Or the Dai Le holding sharp crystals to his neck whom were going to kill him if Zuko attacked Azula or he did anything other the dispense advice and breathe normally?Season one.


How is the fight with Ozai unimportant? Aang was trying to prevent the single most powerful Firebender in the world from torching a country, if Aang failed to get his attention, or lost, Ozai would have finished the introduction to the invasion of the Earth Kingdom on his own (which is what the mass torching was mind you).The mass torching was being done by the guys in the blimps, though, which they stopped. Once that had been halted, the fight against Ozai wasn't that important. I think I phrased myself badly; what I meant was that, really, the point of the fight against Ozai was to distract the guy. Once the blimps were finished, the Earth Kingdom was pretty much safe. Ozai might be strong, but I doubt he could go through with his plan by himself, even with Sozen's Comet. But even if he could, all they actually had to do was stop him from doing so until the comet left, and Aang did beat him into submission. So let's review the reasons Aang supposedly had to kill Ozai:
1) Ozai would kill Aang if he didn't. That doesn't really make sense. It might be tough to beat Ozai into submission without killing him, but it's possible, and was what was done.
2) Ozai would destroy the Earth Kingdom if Aang didn't kill him. Again, that doesn't really make sense, as I've explained. The blimps were the threat, not Ozai himself, and even if Ozai was able to blast the Earth Kingdom into submission, Ozai doesn't need to be killed, just incapacitated until Sozen's Comet clears. After defeating him, Aang could've either knocked him out or just--as I've mentioned--crushed the guy's hands. Even if he can still spit out fire, he's not going to be able to do that to get off of the plateau the two were on without the hovering thing that can be done by throwing fire out of their hands.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: There was no need to kill Ozai even if the Lion Turtle had never come into play. The fact they ignored this fact (not to mention the fact that this should've all been brought up in Day of Black Sun and wasn't, making the whole thing even more contrived) and built up the dilemma, then said "screw it, it doesn't matter" is what's so utterly infuriating.

rewinn
2009-07-16, 05:23 PM
Then you'd accidentally end the Marvel Universe in 1959, before most of its characters are born. :|3

Namor's first appearance was canonically 1939, both in our world and Marvel's. Charles Xaviers' father was involved in nuclear testing in the 1940s, Charles had to have fought in Vietnam (originally Korea) before founding the X-Men; the earliest they could appear would be 1971. Which admittedly fits in with Giant-Size X-Men being in 1975. Colossus would still be in his 40's when he started dating Kitty Pryde in her teens though.Just let them have kids with similar superpowers ... as if mutations were based on genetics and super-suits could be worn by someone other than Tony Stark.

Marvel is tinkering with Spiderman having a daughter in one of their continuities. You can get some good plot out of stay-at-home daddy worrying about his kid.

Lord Seth
2009-07-16, 05:27 PM
Except they didn't just cop-out. After talking with the past avatars, Aang decided that he was going to have to kill Ozai. Now, with no way that's going to be allowed on a Nick show, they afterwards introduce a method for him to get away with not killing him, but there's not much they can do about that. But Aang does solve the dilemma before the cop-out comes in.Uh, no, it's still a cop-out. If Aang had killed Ozai, or had chosen not to and dealt with the consequences, then it wouldn't have been a cop-out. As it stands, it was. They built up a dilemma and didn't follow through. It's the definition of a cop-out.

As I've said before: If Nickelodeon wasn't going to let them do it--if that was the reason--they shouldn't have made a giant deal out of it and try to make it suspenseful. They should've scrapped the whole dilemma rather than make the viewer watch Aang spend so much time whining about something that ends up completely pointless.


The problem was his chakras were locked after getting hit by Azula's lightning, the blow he took to the exact same spot when fighting Ozai forced it open. Lucky? Sure, but such last second lucky breaks are pretty standard in the action/adventure media.Might've been nice if they had bothered to explain how that was possible, or even gave the slightest hint that could happen.

TheThan
2009-07-16, 05:51 PM
Star wars: episode I reboot (spoilered for length)

The trade federation is after exclusive mineral rights on the planet Naboo. The king of Naboo however wishes to keep the mining operations in Naboo hands and has no desire to sell the rights. All negotiations have failed and the trade federation decided to take more aggressive actions. They assassinated the king.

With the king dead, the queen took charge of the government and continued to frustrate the advances of the Trade Federation. Knowing that two assassinations would look too suspicious (the first appearing as an accident) for even them to conceal, they decided to attack Naboo and force the queen to sign over the mineral rights under duress.

Meanwhile the republic has dispatched a newly knighted Jedi, Obi Wan Kenobi, to help sooth tensions in the Naboo system. Unfortunately he is too late to stop the invasion and escapes down to the planet. Once there he makes his way to the capital city Theed and manages to rescues the queen and her daughter Padme. The three of them, along with a small contingent of guards and handmaidens, escape the planet and blockade. But their ship is damaged and they are forced to make an emergency landing on the planet Tatooine.

Obi Wan immediately heads out to gather the parts they need. However he doesn’t have anything to barter with and cannot convince the dealer to sell him the parts. Obi Wan soon bumps into a young orphan named Anakin Skywalker, who offers him a way to acquire the parts he needs in exchange for a passage off world. Anakin reveals that he has been building a pod racer for the upcoming race, and he hoped he could make enough money to buy passage off world or to at least live a bit more comfortably on the desert world.

Obi Wan, sensing Anakin’s budding force talent, accepts the deal and the two finish the pod just in time to compete in the race. Obi Wan wagers the pod against the parts he needs to escape the planet. The race is on and despite a brutal and heart-stopping race, Anakin barely manages to win it, but still a win is a win. With the parts they need, the two are off to the ship.

The two head to the ship and they begin repairs. While the ship is being worked on, Anakin is introduced to Padme and the two spend a lot of time together. During this time Anakin reveals that he lost both his parents during a Sand People raid and that he believes that he is alone in the universe. The two children develop a relationship but that is cut short when they arrive at Coruscant and are separated.

The queen tries to plead with the Republic to aid in her world’s plight. Unfortunately her words fall on deaf ears and she decides to take actions into her own hands. She enlists the help of Obi Wan and Anakin and head back to Naboo where they perform a precision strike on the palace and the hangar bays. They manage to launch the fighters (in which Anakin ends up in a fighter with R2D2, and helps destroy the droid control ship in orbit). Obi Wan engages the assassin (Darth maul), he injures Maul but he is able to escape later.

Afterward much celebrating is to be had at the liberation of Naboo. Anakin becomes Obi Wan’s apprentice and we see a setup for the second movie. Which I’ll write up some other time.

Reverent-One
2009-07-16, 06:25 PM
Uh, no, it's still a cop-out. If Aang had killed Ozai, or had chosen not to and dealt with the consequences, then it wouldn't have been a cop-out. As it stands, it was. They built up a dilemma and didn't follow through. It's the definition of a cop-out.

As I've said before: If Nickelodeon wasn't going to let them do it--if that was the reason--they shouldn't have made a giant deal out of it and try to make it suspenseful. They should've scrapped the whole dilemma rather than make the viewer watch Aang spend so much time whining about something that ends up completely pointless.

It wasn't pointless to Aang though. And given the serious themes they've put into the show, addressing this issue at some point in the show made sense. The whole time on the back of the lion-turtle talking with the past avatars also teaches Aang what being the Avatar means. It's more character development than anything else, though it is unfortunate that there was no external outlet to demonstrate it.


Might've been nice if they had bothered to explain how that was possible, or even gave the slightest hint that could happen.

Explaining how avatar powers work in detail? That seems unlikely. They really do keep the whole thing mystical throughout the series, with the exception of his time with the guru.

thegurullamen
2009-07-17, 12:07 AM
Star wars: episode I reboot (spoilered for length)

The trade federation is after exclusive mineral rights on the planet Naboo. The king of Naboo however wishes to keep the mining operations in Naboo hands and has no desire to sell the rights. All negotiations have failed and the trade federation decided to take more aggressive actions. They assassinated the king.

With the king dead, the queen took charge of the government and continued to frustrate the advances of the Trade Federation. Knowing that two assassinations would look too suspicious (the first appearing as an accident) for even them to conceal, they decided to attack Naboo and force the queen to sign over the mineral rights under duress.

Meanwhile the republic has dispatched a newly knighted Jedi, Obi Wan Kenobi, to help sooth tensions in the Naboo system. Unfortunately he is too late to stop the invasion and escapes down to the planet. Once there he makes his way to the capital city Theed and manages to rescues the queen and her daughter Padme. The three of them, along with a small contingent of guards and handmaidens, escape the planet and blockade. But their ship is damaged and they are forced to make an emergency landing on the planet Tatooine.

Obi Wan immediately heads out to gather the parts they need. However he doesn’t have anything to barter with and cannot convince the dealer to sell him the parts. Obi Wan soon bumps into a young orphan named Anakin Skywalker, who offers him a way to acquire the parts he needs in exchange for a passage off world. Anakin reveals that he has been building a pod racer for the upcoming race, and he hoped he could make enough money to buy passage off world or to at least live a bit more comfortably on the desert world.

Obi Wan, sensing Anakin’s budding force talent, accepts the deal and the two finish the pod just in time to compete in the race. Obi Wan wagers the pod against the parts he needs to escape the planet. The race is on and despite a brutal and heart-stopping race, Anakin barely manages to win it, but still a win is a win. With the parts they need, the two are off to the ship.

The two head to the ship and they begin repairs. While the ship is being worked on, Anakin is introduced to Padme and the two spend a lot of time together. During this time Anakin reveals that he lost both his parents during a Sand People raid and that he believes that he is alone in the universe. The two children develop a relationship but that is cut short when they arrive at Coruscant and are separated.

The queen tries to plead with the Republic to aid in her world’s plight. Unfortunately her words fall on deaf ears and she decides to take actions into her own hands. She enlists the help of Obi Wan and Anakin and head back to Naboo where they perform a precision strike on the palace and the hangar bays. They manage to launch the fighters (in which Anakin ends up in a fighter with R2D2, and helps destroy the droid control ship in orbit). Obi Wan engages the assassin (Darth maul), he injures Maul but he is able to escape later.

Afterward much celebrating is to be had at the liberation of Naboo. Anakin becomes Obi Wan’s apprentice and we see a setup for the second movie. Which I’ll write up some other time.


While I've got a couple of small issues with this premise, it gives me an idea. I wonder how the final product would look if someone dubbed over every English speaking part from the pretrilogy with gibberish (essentially, an alien language to mask the original lines) and then subbed it with a new script?

Wanted: three good re-dubbing scripts for Eps I-III and talented voice actors who can speak fluent gibberish.

chiasaur11
2009-07-17, 12:29 AM
While I've got a couple of small issues with this premise, it gives me an idea. I wonder how the final product would look if someone dubbed over every English speaking part from the pretrilogy with gibberish (essentially, an alien language to mask the original lines) and then subbed it with a new script?

Wanted: three good re-dubbing scripts for Eps I-III and talented voice actors who can speak fluent gibberish.

So, basically Darths and Droids?

thegurullamen
2009-07-17, 12:37 AM
So, basically Darths and Droids?

Well, yeah, but legitimate. Think they're up to doing some non-com space opera?

Fri
2009-07-17, 12:42 AM
*snips* Shadowrun game *snips*


Try to play the sega genesis version of shadowrun. Awesome, awesome game. A Sandbox RPG that captured the spirit of the setting almost perfectly.

Prime32
2009-07-17, 06:34 AM
Star wars: episode I reboot (spoilered for length)

The trade federation is after exclusive mineral rights on the planet Naboo. The king of Naboo however wishes to keep the mining operations in Naboo hands and has no desire to sell the rights. All negotiations have failed and the trade federation decided to take more aggressive actions. They assassinated the king.

With the king dead, the queen took charge of the government and continued to frustrate the advances of the Trade Federation. Knowing that two assassinations would look too suspicious (the first appearing as an accident) for even them to conceal, they decided to attack Naboo and force the queen to sign over the mineral rights under duress.

Meanwhile the republic has dispatched a newly knighted Jedi, Obi Wan Kenobi, to help sooth tensions in the Naboo system. Unfortunately he is too late to stop the invasion and escapes down to the planet. Once there he makes his way to the capital city Theed and manages to rescues the queen and her daughter Padme. The three of them, along with a small contingent of guards and handmaidens, escape the planet and blockade. But their ship is damaged and they are forced to make an emergency landing on the planet Tatooine.

Obi Wan immediately heads out to gather the parts they need. However he doesn’t have anything to barter with and cannot convince the dealer to sell him the parts. Obi Wan soon bumps into a young orphan named Anakin Skywalker, who offers him a way to acquire the parts he needs in exchange for a passage off world. Anakin reveals that he has been building a pod racer for the upcoming race, and he hoped he could make enough money to buy passage off world or to at least live a bit more comfortably on the desert world.

Obi Wan, sensing Anakin’s budding force talent, accepts the deal and the two finish the pod just in time to compete in the race. Obi Wan wagers the pod against the parts he needs to escape the planet. The race is on and despite a brutal and heart-stopping race, Anakin barely manages to win it, but still a win is a win. With the parts they need, the two are off to the ship.

The two head to the ship and they begin repairs. While the ship is being worked on, Anakin is introduced to Padme and the two spend a lot of time together. During this time Anakin reveals that he lost both his parents during a Sand People raid and that he believes that he is alone in the universe. The two children develop a relationship but that is cut short when they arrive at Coruscant and are separated.

The queen tries to plead with the Republic to aid in her world’s plight. Unfortunately her words fall on deaf ears and she decides to take actions into her own hands. She enlists the help of Obi Wan and Anakin and head back to Naboo where they perform a precision strike on the palace and the hangar bays. They manage to launch the fighters (in which Anakin ends up in a fighter with R2D2, and helps destroy the droid control ship in orbit). Obi Wan engages the assassin (Darth maul), he injures Maul but he is able to escape later.

Afterward much celebrating is to be had at the liberation of Naboo. Anakin becomes Obi Wan’s apprentice and we see a setup for the second movie. Which I’ll write up some other time.

So... no Qui-Gon?

Uin
2009-07-17, 07:02 AM
I'd reboot and retcon Metroid. Before you say its already being done, I'll say the direction they are going is the wrong one. Metroid does not need Cutscenes, Voice-acting, Backstory, NPCs or Massive boobs. Metroid is supposed to be Lonely, Claustraphoic and Investigative. Metroid Prime was was all this, but you could see the decay starting in MPII.

JerryMcJerrison
2009-07-17, 09:30 AM
So let's review the reasons Aang supposedly had to kill Ozai:
1) Ozai would kill Aang if he didn't. That doesn't really make sense. It might be tough to beat Ozai into submission without killing him, but it's possible, and was what was done.
2) Ozai would destroy the Earth Kingdom if Aang didn't kill him. Again, that doesn't really make sense, as I've explained. The blimps were the threat, not Ozai himself, and even if Ozai was able to blast the Earth Kingdom into submission, Ozai doesn't need to be killed, just incapacitated until Sozen's Comet clears. After defeating him, Aang could've either knocked him out or just--as I've mentioned--crushed the guy's hands. Even if he can still spit out fire, he's not going to be able to do that to get off of the plateau the two were on without the hovering thing that can be done by throwing fire out of their hands.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: There was no need to kill Ozai even if the Lion Turtle had never come into play. The fact they ignored this fact (not to mention the fact that this should've all been brought up in Day of Black Sun and wasn't, making the whole thing even more contrived) and built up the dilemma, then said "screw it, it doesn't matter" is what's so utterly infuriating.
1. Actually, it WASN'T possible for Aang to beat Ozai, not without the Avatar state. The only time Aang could have won the fight was when he redirected Ozai's lightning, and Aang couldn't bring himself to do it.
2. Did you not see what Ozai was capable of? If he had defeated Aang, even without his blimps, he could have killed thousands of people, easily. And without removing his bending from the equation, he would have undoubtedly gone on to kill more people, whether trying to escape whatever prison he was in, or just to vent his rage on fellow prisoners. If King Bumi can earthbend with just his face, and every other bender can bend with their whole body, Ozai could bend without his hands. Maybe if you permanently crippled him, but I'm sure Aang would find breaking a man beyond healing to be even more abhorrent than killing him.
On top of that, it's just a show, you should really just relax.

I would also like to reboot Avatar, but not to continue the series. I've always wanted to see the show with all the elements rotated to the next avatar in line. I.e. The Avatar would be a waterbender, the oppressing militant state would be airbenders, the blind mentor would be a firebender who can see heat like a pit viper, etc.

GrandMasterMe
2009-07-17, 09:46 AM
Reboot Geeks and Freaks

TheThan
2009-07-17, 11:20 AM
So... no Qui-Gon?

Well yeah, there’s two reasons for it.
The first is that he’s not really needed in the film.
Second I was going to reveal that the bodies of true Jedi masters disappear ala Yoda and Obi-Wan. Their minds and bodies become one with the force and the only traces they leave are the deeds they did before death.

Faceist
2009-07-17, 01:19 PM
I'd redo the prequel trilogy so it consisted of Darth Vader breakdancing and using the force to choke anyone who uttered the word "midichlorians".

I'd also redo Death Note to keep L alive and maintain the excellent genius-on-genius strategizing he had going on with Light for the remainder of the series. Or at least do what the live action film did and have him die catching Light. Also: Firefly series 2! With alive Wash. Oh yeah! And I'd remake Final Fantasy VI exactly as it was, but with massively improved graphics. No voice acting, though, except the obligatory Kefka laugh. UWA-HA-HA-HA!

Jamin
2009-07-17, 03:16 PM
I would also like to reboot Avatar, but not to continue the series. I've always wanted to see the show with all the elements rotated to the next avatar in line. I.e. The Avatar would be a waterbender, the oppressing militant state would be airbenders, the blind mentor would be a firebender who can see heat like a pit viper, etc.

I just can't see the Airbenders as an oppressing militant state. But I would like to see a new series in the world of Avatar

Jahkaivah
2009-07-17, 03:40 PM
Have to agree with Lord Seth about the ending of Avatar, still loved the last episode for everything else about it though

A computer game example, but I'd quite like a remake of Deus Ex, improve the game play mechanics so it flows better introduce more plot bending decisions, and expand the plot and characters to accommodate it, for example introduced more characters on MJ-12 and give them greyer motivations so that joining them becomes a viable option.



I'd also redo Death Note to keep L alive and maintain the excellent genius-on-genius strategizing he had going on with Light for the remainder of the series.

Oh yes, something should have been done about Death Note, the show was very much "awesome premise, poor long-term execution". Fortunately Code Geass picked up the pieces somewhat.

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-07-17, 03:51 PM
Well...like oh-so-many other fans out here, I'd reboot Firefly. I think I'd keep Serenity as it was, and start post-Serenity, because it's an interesting setting with plenty of things happening.
After all, the Alliance is potentially cracking, and you could have several rebel movements forming, and even if it's not all-out war, it's plenty interesting

I'd also really like to continue an anime called Noir, simply because I found the story to be quite engaging.
Probably, for Noir, I'd slightly retcon the end conflict with Altena, leaving her alive and wounded, putting her under the control of the rest of the Soldats. Then, I'd introduce a twin to Chloe, who was rejected by Altena, and who (being incredibly bitter) trained in secret, and now wants to bring down the Soldats for revenge. So you'd have him working alongside Kirika and Mirielle, but for totally different motives, and he'd probably be a hindrance to their attempts to come clean and be good.

nothingclever
2009-07-17, 05:10 PM
I'd retcon Death Note so Light wins because even if he is obnoxious his opponents are far worse and only defeat him because of a lucky coincidence. I might actually add some content relevant to the descriptions people give it.

I'd retcon Monster so Johan would actually do something other than smile calmly while the other characters go on and on about how spooky and awesome he is.

I'd retcon Firefly out of existence because I dislike everything about it and give Buffy the Vampire Slayer another season.

chiasaur11
2009-07-17, 05:43 PM
I'd retcon Firefly out of existence because I dislike everything about it and give Buffy the Vampire Slayer another season.

I'm afraid that opinion means I am legally obligated to shun you now. Nothing personal, just regulations.

SHUN.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-07-17, 06:39 PM
Bleach: I wouldn't do much, just trim hella fat off this series. First, kill Renji during the Soul Society arc; his character design makes me hate him and Ichigo didn't need another rival--the Quincy guy was a much better character (it's been years and I don't remember this series well anymore >_> ). Also kill Captain Byakuya, he was a douche, probably have the 11th Captain kill those two guys who sided with Aizen (Captain Geordi LaForge and that other guy...?) Basically have Aizen gut the Soul Society hierarchy before he actually escapes so we don't have all these named characters cluttering up the scene. And have Ichigo kill King Fisher, WTF was up with his dad coming out with Shinigami powers? That was the moment when I was like "yeah, I'm done :smallannoyed: " and stopped reading.

thegurullamen
2009-07-18, 12:02 AM
I'd redo the prequel trilogy so it consisted of Darth Vader breakdancing and using the force to choke anyone who uttered the word "midichlorians".

You going to cite that?


SHUN

I agree with this sentiment.

pita
2009-07-18, 04:39 AM
I didn't know there was anybody who hated Firefly. I thought it was like thinking The Godfather was a horrible movie, or thinking Douglas Adams isn't funny, or thinking that A Song of Ice and Fire kills off too little characters.

Vic_Sage
2009-07-18, 04:53 AM
Bleach: I wouldn't do much, just trim hella fat off this series. First, kill Renji during the Soul Society arc; his character design makes me hate him and Ichigo didn't need another rival--the Quincy guy was a much better character (it's been years and I don't remember this series well anymore >_> ). Also kill Captain Byakuya, he was a douche, probably have the 11th Captain kill those two guys who sided with Aizen (Captain Geordi LaForge and that other guy...?) Basically have Aizen gut the Soul Society hierarchy before he actually escapes so we don't have all these named characters cluttering up the scene. And have Ichigo kill King Fisher, WTF was up with his dad coming out with Shinigami powers? That was the moment when I was like "yeah, I'm done :smallannoyed: " and stopped reading.
So you'd kill everyone interesting and the people the fans actually like? Smart.

Cubey
2009-07-18, 05:08 AM
I'd also really like to continue an anime called Noir, simply because I found the story to be quite engaging.
Probably, for Noir, I'd slightly retcon the end conflict with Altena, leaving her alive and wounded, putting her under the control of the rest of the Soldats. Then, I'd introduce a twin to Chloe, who was rejected by Altena, and who (being incredibly bitter) trained in secret, and now wants to bring down the Soldats for revenge. So you'd have him working alongside Kirika and Mirielle, but for totally different motives, and he'd probably be a hindrance to their attempts to come clean and be good.

I was okay with the ending, actually. I'm answering this only to show that there is at least one other guy on this forum who watched Noir.
My introduction to yuri-riffic anime.

@Firefly & Buffy rage: you guys realize that the original controversial statement was probably written only to cause controversy, right?

xPANCAKEx
2009-07-18, 05:12 AM
I'd retcon Firefly out of existence because I dislike everything about it and give Buffy the Vampire Slayer another season.

i'd have gone completely the oppositie and retconned the buffy series out of existence... so SO bad.

yep. i said it. suck it up playgrounders.

Lord of Rapture
2009-07-18, 06:17 AM
I'd retcon Death Note so Light wins because even if he is obnoxious his opponents are far worse and only defeat him because of a lucky coincidence. I might actually add some content relevant to the descriptions people give it.

I'd retcon Monster so Johan would actually do something other than smile calmly while the other characters go on and on about how spooky and awesome he is.

I'd retcon Firefly out of existence because I dislike everything about it and give Buffy the Vampire Slayer another season.

Death Note: Heck yeah. Everything went downhill after L died.

Monster: I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears and say "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Firefly: No comment. I never watched it.

nothingclever
2009-07-18, 08:45 AM
@Firefly & Buffy rage: you guys realize that the original controversial statement was probably written only to cause controversy, right?
Y'know following me into threads to imply I'm a troll could also be interpreted as trolling.

I honestly hated Firefly. It felt terribly slow, bland and overall underwhelming to me. I didn't find any of the characters funny or interesting and the whole western in space thing felt stupid to me. It's a western with no action or with action primarily coming from some annoying little girl that uses gun-fu. I'll definitely never watch Serenity. Watching a 95 pound girl beat up a bunch of stereotypical big tough guys just feels so painfully dumb to me. I liked Buffy because there was at least some nice cheesy wordplay with good delivery like when Buffy's sister tries to describe some girl in her school that's apparently great at everything and she calls her a glamazoness. I'm not saying that's some amazing stroke of genius I just prefer that stuff over Firefly because I can't get into it. Cowboys with spaceships doesn't appeal to me. I'm not enthralled by the concept. Firefly feels like it's trying to be more serious while Buffy is pretty much entirely comedy. I can't take what happens in Firefly even a little seriously.

Cubey
2009-07-18, 10:14 AM
I've been on this thread since page one, thank you very much.

While opinions on finding characters and plot fun or bland are by definition never objective and therefore I can't criticize them for being wrong (because they can't be wrong), I wonder if you've actually seen a single episode of Firefly: You seem to believe all of its action scenes are "little girls using gun-fu", when there was a total of 1 such an action scene in the series (the movie was a total Summer Glau vehicle - it had two scenes like that).
Also: if you can't take anything that happens in Firefly seriously, does that really mean the shows takes itself too seriously but fails, or maybe it is an intentional comedy series after all?

nothingclever
2009-07-18, 10:18 AM
If she's only doing that in one episode I must've seen the worst episodes and episode clips. I have watched the show although not canonically and not viewing each episode always from start to finish since I've never actually liked what I was seeing. It feels like I'm watching Star Trek minus the many different worlds, races, shiny stuff and camp. That scene where River Tam shoots 3 soldiers with her eyes closed certainly makes me want to take evasive action using the Picard Maneuver: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/nothingclever/2713049064_a756f5dceb.jpg
I don't mind Summer Glau in the Sarah Conner Chronicles because she's at least a robot which makes whatever superhuman stuff her character does a million times mentally less cringe inducing.

Black_Pants_Guy
2009-07-18, 10:25 AM
i'd have gone completely the oppositie and retconned the buffy series out of existence... so SO bad.

yep. i said it. suck it up playgrounders.

*thumbs up*


Blah blah, blah blah blah. Uninformed this / uninformed that. Captain Picard and that saucy, saucy Summer Glau.

Watch the Movie, it's Intro follows the lines of 'OH NOES! EVIL GOVERNMENT TURNED ME INTO A SUPER-SOLDIER!" making all of Serenity and Firefly super-double chocolaty coated goodness.

Cubey
2009-07-18, 10:26 AM
This:

I have watched the show although not canonically and not viewing each episode always from start to finish since I've never actually liked what I was seeing.

Definitely explains this:

It feels like I'm watching Star Trek minus the many different worlds, races, shiny stuff and camp.
I am sure your opinion would be different if you saw an actual full episode.

And I'm baffled. Sure, this episode had River-fu (in fact, it was the only Firefly episode with River-fu), but how can you say it had no other action whatsoever when the rest of the group stormed the space station, guns blazing, just minutes before that scene?

Oh yeah. And there is an explanation of why River is capable of nigh superhuman feats. However, usually she's just as useful as a ticking bomb glued to Simon's arse. So she's far from an omnipotent plot-breaking Mary Sue.

At least arguably until the movie.

kamikasei
2009-07-18, 10:27 AM
The Harry Potter movie franchise. I would quite like to see an adaptation done now that all the books are out, where the creators could review the plot as a whole and work out what to cut, what to keep and what to change for best effect. The movies as they have been were both too confused (I cannot imagine anyone just watching the movies will be able to make sense of the final pair) and due to the changes in staff too haphazard.


When in doubt, kill the protagonist. Especially in anything targeted at a younger audience. Children should learn from early on, that life is not guaranteed to be always happy.

I like the cut of your jib.


Star Trek Voyager is another exercise in wasted potential.

Agreed.


Picard Maneuver

That's not the Picard Maneuver.

nothingclever
2009-07-18, 10:36 AM
Sure, there are additional sources of action but I find myself often forgetting them because my mind gravitates towards memories of all the dialog I consistently disliked. Plus every character felt like an annoying sidekick to me including the captain. Oh and how I hated that monotonous drawling intro song.


That's not the Picard Maneuver.
I know but it's certainly more memorable than the real one.

kamikasei
2009-07-18, 10:39 AM
If you're aware that you don't accurately recall the show because of how much you disliked it, maybe you should refrain from criticizing the distorted image in your memory?

It's like claiming Watchmen sucked because there was no action, when what you really mean is "the giant blue penis freaked me out so much I couldn't remember anything else about the film".

nothingclever
2009-07-18, 11:22 AM
Only I do remember what I disliked. I disliked the dialog and characters which I have said more than once and I also dislike the setting. Just because I misremember one aspect of the show doesn't mean the rest of my recollection is as hazy.

And although I haven't bothered reading or viewing the Watchmen I'd probably dislike it too since I'm tired of people calling it a literary masterpiece like Shakespeare. Shakespeare wasn't all that great either. He actually made mistakes and part of the reason his writing is supposedly sooo deep and hard to understand is that he had a a hard time phrasing some of his work and at times he chose to try way too hard to make little jokes/puns work that even the audience of his time would not understand or appreciate even if they did.

Prime32
2009-07-18, 11:43 AM
And although I haven't bothered reading or viewing the Watchmen I'd probably dislike it too since I'm tired of people calling it a literary masterpiece like Shakespeare.Watchmen was influential, and that's a reason to read it in itself (I only read it recently). Unfortunately, some most of the things it influenced just took from it "WAAARGH I'M DARK I KILL PEOPLE!" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkAge)

Tengu_temp
2009-07-18, 11:45 AM
It's common that a big and influential piece gets followed by a lot of cheap knockoffs that completely misunderstood what made it good in the first place.

kamikasei
2009-07-18, 12:05 PM
You've pretty thoroughly missed my point, nothingclever. If you were criticizing the show based on what you remember, your response might make sense. Rather, you've criticized it for having no or only River-based action, and then when it's pointed out that that's simply not the case your defense is that the other things you dislike about it made you forget the action that was present (and that this happens often, which means you're aware your memory of the show is not accurate). If that's so, then why not confine your criticism to what you do, in fact, remember?

Whether or not you yourself have seen or enjoyed Watchmen is entirely irrelevant to the analogy I was making. And I don't think anyone had mentioned Shakespeare - at this point you're basically talking to yourself, which is generally something best done in private.

thegurullamen
2009-07-18, 01:41 PM
Damn it, this always happens.

A: (strongly held negative opinion about widely loved thing)
B: (refutation of opinion's points)
A: (refutation of refutations)
A & B: (continuation, ignoring the fact that 99% of opinions are not likely to be changed by an internet argument; thread eaten)

Some people like Firefly, some like Buffy, many like both, a few like one, a few like neither. There. Cycle broken. Let the healing begin.

Godskook
2009-07-18, 03:09 PM
I'd destroy the current transformers movies made by Michael Bay, and make new ones, where the biggest names were voice actors, not screen actors, where robot combat was actually visible*, and the story, y'know, was about robots(go figure!). The robots would have more backstory than the humans, at a ratio of at least 10:1. Characters would not be butchered to fit the plot when the universe is so kind to allow me to create new characters at the drop of the hat**. Transformer technology would be discussed, at least in enough detail that energon would be said more than 5 times in 2 movies. A decepticon would never insinuate that they'd be hiding from humans, for any reason. Optimus Prime would have intelligent dialogue worthy of a scientist/warrior/general that he is. Megatron would be the BBEG that he is, rather than dying in the first movie only to come back in the second as some sort of Soundwave clone(character-wise, movie 2 Megatron is *WAY* more like Soundwave than Megatron). Proto-bots(name?), if they exist at all(the ones that were being made spontaneously) would not be homicidal by nature. The Autobots would not be under the 'custody' of a government, and government officials would not be represented so incompetently.

Michael Bay gets to live purely because Armageddon.

*Its sad when Matrix Revolutions is a better example of robot combat in a movie.

**The animated movie did this, and was completely fine. Hot Rod was introduced there, and I'm pretty sure it was Ultra Magnus' first time with a voice.

Talwar
2009-07-18, 03:32 PM
I'm going to go in a different direction on this and say, "I'd retcon the booking of World Championship Wrestling", as the whole NWO thing really went off the rails.

thegurullamen
2009-07-18, 04:05 PM
I'm going to go in a different direction on this and say, "I'd retcon the booking of World Championship Wrestling", as the whole NWO thing really went off the rails.

Yeah, this and everything from the Dethroning Moment of Suck Pro-Wrestling trope page. Also, for the WWF/E, anything involving the McMahons after the Stone Cold vs. Corporate arc, anything involving seventy year old beauty queens, anything spawned by Vince McMahon's sick sense of humor and Invasion.

Lord Seth
2009-07-18, 04:25 PM
And although I haven't bothered reading or viewing the Watchmen I'd probably dislike it too since I'm tired of people calling it a literary masterpiece like Shakespeare. Shakespeare wasn't all that great either. He actually made mistakes and part of the reason his writing is supposedly sooo deep and hard to understand is that he had a a hard time phrasing some of his work and at times he chose to try way too hard to make little jokes/puns work that even the audience of his time would not understand or appreciate even if they did.I thought Shakespeare was awesome...most of the time. He did have his weak points, like "Troilus and Cressida." I wanted the last few hours of my life back after I finished reading that.

Jamin
2009-07-18, 04:51 PM
I didn't know there was anybody who hated Firefly. I thought it was like thinking The Godfather was a horrible movie, or thinking Douglas Adams isn't funny, or thinking that A Song of Ice and Fire kills off too little characters.

I hate the Godfather it is one of the most over rated movies of all time IMO.

Vic_Sage
2009-07-18, 05:15 PM
Yeah, this and everything from the Dethroning Moment of Suck Pro-Wrestling trope page. Also, for the WWF/E, anything involving the McMahons after the Stone Cold vs. Corporate arc, anything involving seventy year old beauty queens, anything spawned by Vince McMahon's sick sense of humor and Invasion.
Rebook WCW and WWE so they both go out of business and Chikara and ROH take over a reign supreme till the end of time, a man can dream.

pita
2009-07-18, 05:18 PM
I think the Godfather is completely overrated too, but I can appreciate it on the following merits:
1. A good storyline.
2. Realistic characters.
3. Excellent acting.
I prefer Watchmen (the movie), as well as many others (The Dark Knight, Sunshine, and more), over The Godfather, but it doesn't mean I think The Godfather sucks.

nothingclever
2009-07-18, 05:18 PM
You've pretty thoroughly missed my point, nothingclever. If you were criticizing the show based on what you remember, your response might make sense. Rather, you've criticized it for having no or only River-based action, and then when it's pointed out that that's simply not the case your defense is that the other things you dislike about it made you forget the action that was present (and that this happens often, which means you're aware your memory of the show is not accurate). If that's so, then why not confine your criticism to what you do, in fact, remember?

I said from the start I didn't like other qualities and I didn't just fall back on them. Action wasn't the only thing I commented on. Don't try to suddenly say my entire recollection of something is faulty. You and Cubey seem thoroughly to be missing your own point of criticizing me about supposedly just trying to get a rise out of people since you've both decided to be all combative. You two sound like you really want to evoke a response by using strong words which means you're acting the same way you claim I am. Claiming I have no idea what I'm talking about and that I'm a troll one way or another are pretty strong accusations. Sounds like baiting to me. I'm not the one trying to trivialize what other people are saying. "I don't care for what you have to say, therefore you are trolling." Real smooth. I'll just stop replying so you two don't feel the need to go on and on. 3 threads now, you people are criticizing me. I should be the one annoyed by you guys. If I really am trolling I guess I'm doing so masterfully. Like moths to a flame and all that.

Redpieper
2009-07-18, 05:41 PM
Can we move on? If you do not like Firefly then start a new thread about it, or say how you'd retcon it to make it into something you do like.

On topic: I'd retcon the second Jurassic Park movie by taking out all the supposed "good" guys. And have the main story be about the hunters as their mission fails. Big time. :smallamused:

Oh and the third movie would be retconned out of existence of course.

Jamin
2009-07-18, 11:13 PM
I don't see why not liking Firefly would make you retcon it. If you did not like it than that is great and all but why even bring that up?

Fri
2009-07-18, 11:55 PM
And I don't see why he can't say that he want to retcon firefly, since all the show you mentioned previously also got their hardcore fan.

People's taste are different, and each of us want to see different thing in different series. If he don't like firefly, it's fine, however misguided or not his view toward it is. He simply don't like firefly's space western theme. So be it, it's his lost.

For your information, he's not the only one that found firefly's space western theme is tacky. And also not the only one that hate river-fu (Tengu also hate river-fu, for example,and so do I, however much I love Firefly)

kpenguin
2009-07-19, 12:25 AM
Not going to comment on the debate over Firefly, but there is something I'd like to point out.


That scene where River Tam shoots 3 soldiers with her eyes closed certainly makes me want to take evasive action using the Picard Maneuver: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/nothingclever/2713049064_a756f5dceb.jpg

That's not the Picard Maneuver

The Picard Manuever refers either:

a) Accelerating your starship into Warp 9 toward the enemy suddenly while the enemy is holding you down and then immediately firing upon exiting Warp.
b) Pulling your shirt down immediately after standing up to prevent wrinkles.

Facepalming is not the Picard Maneuver.

hustlertwo
2009-07-19, 12:29 AM
I'd rather retcon reality so that an errant meteorite struck George Lucas in the head during the early 90's, destroying whatever sector of his brain was responsible for his 'creative' works after Last Crusade. It'd be a big boon to both the Star Wars prequels and Crystal Skull for them never to have been created.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-19, 12:39 AM
Reboot: Firefly!

Retcon... I'd say Star Trek, but the latest movie seems to have done a good job with that already. Maybe the latest of the three Star Wars movies... actually have some good acting and plotline to go with the special effects.

pita
2009-07-19, 01:38 AM
The problem with the new Star Wars movies wasn't the acting. The actors were all good actors. The problem was that they only acted in front of green screens. They had nothing to react to, and as such, their reactions were faulty. More than that, the green screen destroyed any sense of realism they had.
Also, there was the whole "I hate sand. It's so sandy. But I like you because you're not sandy." relationship between Anakin and Padme. GAH!
And Jar-Jar.
And George Lucas.

Lord Seth
2009-07-19, 03:38 AM
I think the problem with Episode I was that it was unnecessary, and Episode II was when Lucas tried to write romance. Here's the problem: He can't. Now, being unable to write romance is perfectly fine, which is why authors who have that weakness try to avoid writing romance. Unfortunately, when half of your movie revolves around romance, and you're no good at writing it, things get painful. It's like Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (at least the book version, I haven't seen the movie), where for some reason J.K. Rowling got the idea into her head that she needed to pack it full of romance, never mind the fact she's about as good as George Lucas at writing it.

If Lucas had gotten someone who might be able to write romantic dialogue to write the scenes, they might have gotten more bearable. As it is, he basically set out to write a lot of scenes involving something he can't write, and the results were predictably bad.

The big problem with Episode III was that they had messed things up so much in Episode II that they had painted themselves into a corner and couldn't really try to make things plausible without ignoring the previous films. For example:
Episode II: Anakin goes and kills a lot of people, including children. He tells this to Padme, who more or less shrugs it off.
Episode III: Anakin goes and kills some children. Padme reacts with horror.

Huh, it seems to me there's a big problem here...

Yora
2009-07-19, 03:52 AM
My vote would be for Star Wars. Just Star Wars!

The idea is so great, but most things that have been done with it, are so awful! :smallbiggrin:

Nevrmore
2009-07-19, 05:11 AM
This:


Definitely explains this:

I am sure your opinion would be different if you saw an actual full episode.
I have seen exactly one full episode of Firefly, and I can tell you with certainty that I did not like it. Not because the plot of the episode was lacking, mind you, but because I found the characters to be repulsive to my sensibilities. Each of them, with the possible exception of Captain Reynolds, annoyed me in some way to such a degree that I would not have minded if they were beaten to death in some sort of hilarious and ironic fashion.