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Sissyphus
2009-07-15, 05:47 PM
Well i have a new class, which i worry may be overpowered, but ah well, hopefully it can be fixed.
without further ado i would like to present:
the blade master
A few rare warriors fall so totally into the ways of the blade as the Blade masters, powerful warriors who wield blades as naught but an extension of the self, and use it to fall into a powerful trance which lets them touch the magic of the world

His blade moved so fast we didnít stand a chance, it flicked in and out severing throats and spilling guts.

~An unnamed Orcish chieftain, last survivor of his band

Adventures: Blade masters often go adventuring, seeking to improve their skills and better themselves, they work hard to better themselves, and move swiftly with a sense of purpose.
Characteristics: Exceptional fighters, blade masters where little to no armor and so try to avoid getting hit, while called coward by some, many recognize a blade masters study of battle techniques and how to employ them as a boon on the battle field, their excellence in striking with great speed making them useful.
Alignment: A blade master is a master of internal focus, steely mental control belies their rapid combat style.
Other classes: Blade masters get along well with spellcasters, especially at higher levels, where they both work with the same energy, but are best known for their relationship with Swordsages and other practitioners of excellent swordsmanship, which they regard as the highest pursuit. They often have trouble with fighters or barbarians, who view their highly mobile style of combat as weak and useless. Monks get along well with Blade masters, often sharing disciplines and studies with them.
Role: a Blade master often takes on the role of harrying spell casters and scouting, but they have been known to head into the front lines for toe to toe combat.

Game rule information:
Blade masters have the following game statistics
Abilities: Wisdom is a Blade masterís most important score, followed closely by dexterity. Wisdom holds most of a Blade masterís class features and such, while dexterity helps with some and lets them avoid damage
Alignment: Any nonchaotic
Hit Dice: d6
Starting Gold: 6d4x10 gp

Class Skills:
A Blade masterís class skills (and the key abilities for each skill) are
Balance (dex), Concentration (con), Craft (int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (dex),Knowledge: Local (int), Martial lore (int), Move silently (dex), Profession (wis), Sleight of hand (dex), Tumble (dex)
Skill points at 1st level: (4+Int modifier)x4
Skill points at each additional level: 4 +Int modifier

Blademaster
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Manuvers Known| Manuvers Readied

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+0|Zen Combat|1|1

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+1|
+1||1|1

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+2|
+1|Zen Focus|1|1

4th|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+2|Speed Strike +1|2|1

5th|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+2|Focused Mind|2|2

6th|
+4|
+2|
+4|
+3|Meditative strike|2|2

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+3|Mental focus|3|2

8th|
+6|
+2|
+6|
+4|Speed Strike +2|3|2

9th|
+6|
+3|
+6|
+4|Speed of thought|3|3

10th|
+7|
+3|
+7|
+5|Stance of Power,Blade Fire|4|3

11th|
+8|
+3|
+8|
+5|Wisdom of the Ages|4|3

12th|
+9|
+4|
+9|
+6|Speed Stirke +3|4|3

13th|
+9|
+4|
+9|
+6|Lightnig Arc|5|4

14th|
+10|
+4|
+10|
+7|Freezing Strike|5|4

15th|
+11|
+5|
+11|
+7|Dexteterous Stirkes|5|4

16th|
+12|
+5|
+12|
+8|Speed Stirke +4, Tremor|6|4

17th|
+12|
+5|
+12|
+8|Mirror Dance|6|5

18th|
+13|
+6|
+13|
+9|Focused Strike|6|4

19th|
+14|
+6|
+14|
+9|Blade Dance|7|4

20th|
+15|
+6|
+15|
+10|Speed Stirke +5, Meteor Strike|7|4[/table]

Class Features:
All the following are class features of the Blade master
Weapon Proficiencies:
A Blade master is proficient with all simple weapons, and all light or one handed melee weapons, he is proficient with light armor, but not shields.
Maneuvers:
A Blade master is entitled to very few maneuvers, and may only choose form schools whose values are speed and wisdom, specifically, Desert wind and Diamond Mind.
Maneuvers Readied:
A blade master may use any maneuver he has readied once per encounter, it takes five minute meditation to change readied maneuvers. A blade master may use a swift action to recover his maneuvers if he has been in combat for at least 6 rounds and makes a concentration check equal to 15+stances known, once he does so, he must wait another 6 rounds before doing so again
Zen Combat (ex):
A first level Blade master practices using calm clearly thought out actions even in the heat of combat. He gains the ability to add his wisdom to his attack rolls in place of his strength when using simple, light or one handed weapons with light or no armor and no shield.
Zen focus (ex):
The training a Blade master receives allows him to focus his mind and add Ĺ his Concentration bonus to his will saves.
Speed strike (ex):
At the fourth level, and every four levels thereafter, the training in lightening strikes a Blade master receives allow him to make an extra attack at his highest base attack bonus (should this bonus be higher than that of a straight Blade master with no multiclassing, use the bonus of a Blade master with Equivalent character level instead), this only works if the Blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapons with light or no armor and no shield.
Focused mind (ex):
A blademaster consciously seeks to strike with increased speed and agility, he gains the ability to add an extra attack following the same rules as speed strike, for each point of Dexterity modifier he has, up to +5, this only works if the Blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapons with light or no armor and no shield.
Meditative strike (ex):
A Blade master intensive and all consuming training allow him to retain full clarity of thought when he is fighting, consciously planning ways to get through a creatures defense. He may add his wisdom modifier to the damage he deals, this only works if the Blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapon with light or no armor and no shield.
Mental Focus (ex):
Starting at the seventh level, a Blade masterís exceptional clarity of mind carries over into his attempts to concentrate. You may use wisdom instead of constitution as the ability modifier for concentration checks
Speed of thought (ex):
The clarity and mind set of a Blade master allow him a calm sense of preparation for battle, he is always ready to lunge into the fray. A Blade master adds his Wisdom bonus to his initiative bonus.
Stance of Power (stance):
At the tenth level a Blade master learns a series of stances which increase the flow of arcane energies through his or her body, supernatural attacks made while in this stance act as if they were under the effects of Enhance spell.
Bladefire (su):
At the tenth level, a Blade master learns to channel the concentration he achieves in combat into fiery power, if he has been fighting for 4 or more rounds he may make a concentration check (dc 18) as a move action to ignite his weapon, if it is lit on fire, it deals an additional 1d6 damage per strike, every round after it has been triggered he makes another concentration check with a +2 to the dc, if he succeeds, the weapon remains on fire, if he fails he canít re invoke this ability until rounds equal to the amount of time it was active have elapsed. Using this ability in conjunction with any other concentration abilities ups the check on each by 4, this only works if the Blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapon with light or no armor and no shield.
Wisdom of the Ages (ex):
Starting at the 11th level a Blade masters focus and training allow him to pick out vital or weak points on a target. He may add his wisdom modifier to his threat range (after any other modifiers), or on creatures immune to critical strikes he may take a full round action to study a foe, if he does so he gains the ability to Critically strike the foe for for the rest of combat, this only works if the Blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapon with light or no armor and no shield.
Lightning Arc (su):
Starting at the 13th level, a Blade master can channel his focus into a crackling burst of electricity, when a Blade master has been in combat for five or more rounds, he may attempt a dc 25 concentration check to shoot a single arc of lightning at his foes, the arc deals 1d6 damage per 2 Blade master levels. After using it once, you must wait five rounds to use it again, using it in conjunction with another concentration ability ups the dc of each check by four, this only works if the Blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapon with light or no armor and no shield.
Freezing Strike (su):
Starting at the 14th level, a Blade master can channel the focus he achieves in combat into a single strike, which freezes a foe utterly, the embodiment of ice and death. A Blade master who has been in combat for four rounds may make a concentration check (dc 30) if successful, make a single attack at your highest attack bonus, if successful the target is frozen solid for as many rounds as you can keep making the check, the check dc increases by two each round, when you fail a check the creature thaws out and may move normally, while frozen they have a hardness of ľ their armor class, their hp in hp, and a break dc of 30. Once the effect is ended, you cannot use it again until rounds equal to however many rounds you held it have passed, this ability only works if the blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapon with light or no armor and no shield.
Dexterous strike (ex):
Starting at the fifteenth level, a Blade masters speed and skill with a blade reach a peak, when , wielding a simple, light or one handed weapon with light or no armor and no shield, you may add your dexterity modifier to your critical multiplier, you may add 5 to the multiplier for each 15 levels you have. This ability only works if the blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapon with light or no armor and no shield.
Tremor (su):
A 15th level Blade master has achieved a great control over what he can do in the middle of combat, going so far as to twist the earth in his favor, When he has been in combat for at least 4 rounds, he can create a localized earthquake (personal-5ft) with a concentration check dc 20, you can extend it 5ft for a +4 increase to the dc. Creatures in the earthquake zone take 1d6 points of damage per turn, and are affected as if by slow. Objects in the earthquake zone that are attached to the ground take 2d6 points of damage, which ignores their hardness, unattached objects move5ft in a random direction. Each round, the dc to maintain the earthquake increases by two, attempting to use this ability and another which requires a concentration check at the same time increases the dc of each by 4. Once it ends, the ability canít be reinvoked for a number of rounds equal to the amount of time it was active. This ability only works if the blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapon with light or no armor and no shield.
Mirror Dance (su):
A Blade master of the 17th level gains the ability to focus his combat concentration to trick his foes. When he has been in combat for 5 or more rounds, he may make a dc 25 concentration check (add your dexterity instead of Constitution) in place of a move action, if successful, he creates (1d4 + blademaster levels) mirror images of himself, this ability functions as the spell mirror image. To maintain this, you must give up a move action to make another check in the same manner, with the dc increased by 3, if you fail, you still lose the action, you canít use this ability if you canít make a ring around your foe. Once it ends, you must wait rounds equal to the amount of time it lasted to activate it again, Attempting to use this ability in conjunction with another concentration based ability raises the dc on each by 4. This ability only works if the blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapon with light or no armor and no shield.
Focused Strike (su):
Starting at the 18th level, a Blade masters concentration in battle has increased greatly, ha can focus the energy from multiple strikes into a single more powerful blow. When you have been in combat for four or more rounds and you could make a full attack, you may attempt a dc 40 concentration check instead of an attack, if successful, you make a single attack against your foes touch armor, this attack deals an extra dice for each attack you could make as a full attack. (ie, if you could make 6 attack as a full attack, and you were using a dagger, when activated it would do +6d4 damage, or 7d4 damage as a touch attack.) once activated you must wait four rounds before attempting to reactivate this, using it incurs a dc increase of 6 on all concentration checks you make. This ability only works if the blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapon with light or no armor and no shield.
Blade dance (su):
A Blade Master of the 19th level can invoke his battle focus into a whirling dance of steel and death. If he has been in combat for four or more rounds, you may attempt a concentration check (dc 32) in place of a move action, add your dexterity modifier to the check in place of any other modifier you could use, if successful, you create a whirling wall of steel and death, you gain a +4 bonus to your ac, and anyone who makes a melee attack against you which fails your ac by 4 takes damage as if you had hit them once. , This ability only works if the blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapon with light or no armor and no shield.
Meteor Storm Strike (su):
A Master of the Blade master techniques learns to wield power in unique and terrifying ways, unlocking the secrets of the Meteor storm strike. When a Blade master has been in combat for at least 4 rounds, he may attempt a concentration check (38 any time he could make a full attack. If successful, you make an attack with twice as many strikes as your full attack, all blows are made at half your highest bab, your threat range increases by 2,and the damage multiplier increases by one. You may attempt this maneuver on every round, but the dc increases by 2, for every round you do not attempt to use Meteor storm, the dc falls by two, until itís back to 38, if you attempt to use this with another concentration based ability, the dc for each rises by 4. This ability only works if the blade master is wielding a simple, light or one handed weapon with light or no armor and no shield. (ie. If you have 4 attacks at 16/11/6/1 with a threat range of 20 and an x2 multiplier, then when you made a meteor storm strike, you would make 8 attacks at +8, using a threat range of 18-20 with a x3 multiplier on critical hits.)


To clarify a Blade mastersí supernatural abilities somewhat:
Activation:
Move action: Blade dance, Mirror dance
Standard action: Tremor, Freezing strike, Lightning arc, Blade fire
Full round action: Meteor Storm Strike, Focused strike
Continuing:
For abilities which can be carried on over multiple rounds
Free action: (purely mental): Blade fire, Freezing strike, Tremor
Move action: Blade dance, Mirror dance
Standard action: Meteor Storm Strike.
Abilities can be used simultaneously, but incur penalties, as noted, using Blade fire (+4) and tremor (+4) together raises the dc by 8, attempting to become psionicaly focused and maintaining Blade fire would raise the dc of each by four.

Ex Blade masters:
Blade masters who become chaotic loose the benefits of class features focusing on discipline: Zen combat, Zen focus, Focused mind, Meditative strike, Mental focus, Speed of thought, Blade fire, Lightning arc, Freezing strike, Tremor, Mirror dance, Focused strike, Blade dance, and Meteor Storm Strike. They retain all other class features, and gain the ability to rage as a barbarian half their level.


hopefully, you like this class, it was designed around hitting fast and often. (I was worried about epic levels, but figured they're already to broken towards casters so who cares, and vorpal weapons would make this class very dangerous too, but whatever)
I have more fluff for it somewhere, but that can come later if people like the class.

Quick table i whipped up to make accounting simple


The activates coloumn shows how many rounds into combat the ability becomes available,
check shows the intial check to activate
primary shows what happens on round one
secondary shows what appens on subsequent rounds
dc increse show the number the dc increases by each round
reusable when shows when you can attempt the manuver after using it once
penalty: shows what dc increase is incurred on any concentration checks you make when you attempt to maintain/invoke one of these at the same time
{table=head]Ability|Activates|Check|Primary affect|Secondary Affect|Dc Increase|reusable when|Penalty
Blade fire|4 rounds in combat|18|1d6 damage|1d6 damage| +2|rounds equal to the amount it was active have gone by| dc +4
Lightning Arc|5 rounds in combat|15|1d6/two blade master levels| none|none|5 rounds| +4
Freezing Strike|4 rounds in combat|30|freezes target solid|keep them frozen|+2|rounds equal to the amount it was active have gone by| dc +4
Tremor|4 rounds in combat|20 (+4 for 5ft increase)|1d6 and slowed|1d6 and slowed|+2|rounds equal to the amount it was active have gone by|+4
Mirror Dance|5 rounds in combat|25 (add dex instead of usual)|1d4+blademaster levels mirror images| as the spell mirror image|3|rounds equal to the amount it was active have gone by|+4
Focused Strike| 4 rounds in combat|40|convert multiple blows into one|none|none|4 rounds|6
Blade Dance| 4 rounds in combat|32|+4 ac, damage to foes who fail| continue affects|2|rounds equal to the amount it was active have gone by|4
Meteor Storm Strike| 4 rounds in combat|38|double hits/half bab|use again|2|anytime, dc Ė2 for each round not used|4[/table]

in case you'd like other flavours (monk Swordsages foe)

Blademasters become an order of monks, they practice a religous world view, and spend time in meditation/prayer, for fluff purposes, the supernatural abilities they gain are divine gifts from the god of war.

Crunch wise: Make their levels stack with monk levels, and vice versa
(1/2 blade master levels stack with monk for determining ki strike and stunning fist etc, 1/2 of monk levels stack with blade master for speed strike etc)

Monks can take levels in this class and still train as a monk again.
Specialize, he's not blade master by divine decree, pick a weapn like kurki, all monks from monastery a are kurki masters, all their abilities only work when they wield a kurki in addition to meeting any other requirements.

When fighting them, they should probably have weapon focus and specialization, so either add them as class features, who make levels of Blademaster count towards getting them somehow.

In all, this flavors it towards monks, and now to take a look at as enemies of the Swordsages:

First pick an organization for the Swordsages, now pick a geographic location, make this a center of Swordsage power, pick another location, make this one a center of Blademsater power, the two fight constantly. They each think their teachings are the best way to approach the arts of combat, and so if one see's the other a fight is likely to ensue, for fun stick a swordsage and blademaster in the same party, rp'ing they always be at each others throats (I'm better, no I am!) and so on.

Perhaps the swordsages and blademasters are the two most powerful guilds of swordsmen around, and that's why they hate each other

Iferus
2009-07-16, 12:42 AM
Now this may sound harsh, but how is this different from a swordsage, flavor-wise? I'm building a matial-heavy campaign setting, but this class is not going to be in it, simply because it doesn't bring anything new. Very few classes really do add something to the martial trinity.

Sissyphus
2009-07-16, 01:21 AM
not much I guess, though i think it could be reworked more towards monk like capabilities, he focuses on tactics closer to Monk hopefully, flavor wise, he can be reworked towards monks more i guess, i never fully finished his flavoring. In the context of a martial campaign, he is in many ways diffrent form a Swordsage, he brings a totally different ability set to the table, so in flavoring he could be alternate to the swordsage, or of entirely different schools of though, like an enemy, a class which has hatred for Swordsages for some reason

on a side note, i was hoping for help in the crunch, not flavor, it's already niched into my campaign, and i was hoping for balance help, some flavor altering can be added at will

Sissyphus
2009-07-16, 09:13 AM
Now, lets take all the flavoring off, were left with a unit who becomes more powerful later in combat after the tenth level, and one who focuses on repeated strikes throughout. okay now lets fit this around a new story:
Story one: Monks
Blademasters become an order of monks, they practice a religous world view, and spend time in meditation/prayer, for fluff purposes, the supernatural abilities they gain are divine gifts from the god of war.

Crunch wise: Make their levels stack with monk levels, and vice versa
(1/2 blade master levels stack with monk for determining ki strike and stunning fist etc, 1/2 of monk levels stack with blade master for speed strike etc)

Monks can take levels in this class and still train as a monk again.
Specialize, he's not blade master by divine decree, pick a weapn like kurki, all monks from monastery a are kurki masters, all their abilities only work when they wield a kurki in addition to meeting any other requirements.

When fighting them, they should probably have weapon focus and specialization, so either add them as class features, who make levels of Blademaster count towards getting them somehow.

In all, this flavors it towards monks, and now to take a look at as enemies of the Swordsages:

First pick an organization for the Swordsages, now pick a geographic location, make this a center of Swordsage power, pick another location, make this one a center of Blademsater power, the two fight constantly. They each think their teachings are the best way to approach the arts of combat, and so if one see's the other a fight is likely to ensue, for fun stick a swordsage and blademaster in the same party, rp'ing they always be at each others throats (I'm better, no I am!) and so on.

Perhaps the swordsages and blademasters are the two most powerful guilds of swordsmen around, and that's why they hate each other




ps- just a little pet peeve prefaces such as this may sound harsh but "blah de Blah" don't really make it seem any less harsh, it just makes sure everyone knows you know it sounds bad

elliott20
2009-07-16, 09:48 AM
all the elemental blade stuff, while cool, I feel increases the amount of bookkeeping during combat, and something about them just doesn't feel quite right.

Wisdom of the Ages on it's own is not very useful, since you're spending a round for the POSSIBILITY to crit something for ONE round. Combined with dexterous strike, the pay off for this can be huge (if it stacks) but then it's still so highly unreliable that I'm not sure it would be all that useful. The gamble as it is, is just not worth the effort. I would say that instead of making it one round, just make it last the entire encounter and then remove the add wisdom modifier to the threat range thing.

I'm not sure how I feel about the various "after x rounds, roll a check" moves. They just seem kind of clunky in execution. I think it would be easier if you just went the "using this attack expends one level x maneuver" method, and then just limit it's use by requiring that the character recovers the maneuver. Of course, you already have a 6 round recovery limit built in, so I don't think it would be necessary. Personally though, I think requiring a 6 round wait is kind of harsh.

Mirror Dance I think would be a bit easier if you just made it an ability to mimick mirror image spell.

Mirror Dance itself I think would be easier if you just

Sissyphus
2009-07-16, 10:09 AM
Wisdom of the ages is effective all the time, the second function, the one not effective all the time is for things normaly immune to crits (not crit immune +5 crit range, immune, one round study, get crit chances for whole of combat) and yes wisdom of the ages and dexterous strike stack.

The supernatural abilities have extra stuff because they last contiously, once invoked, try again each round, if successful you keep the effects, if not you don't, and then the rest is to keep it from being abused, like flaming blade, if you could use that as long as you want, then reactivate the next availbe round, that wouldn't work to weel, though i was tempted to boilerplaste all the abilities the same way:

If you have been in combat for at least four rounds make concentration check (dc x) add modifier (incase it's a different one) each round hereafter make a check (dc x+2) if successful you still get the effects of the ability.
This wouldn't work for a few which are special like focused strike and lightning arc but whatever

the +x dc increase is to prevent uber stacking and such, i think it would be sort of simple to keep track of, being that it's all the same, i'll whip up a table for simple use ie: it tracks activate when, primary effect, secondary effect, check, check bonus, when reusable, etc

Sissyphus
2009-07-16, 10:20 AM
Updating mirror dance, it's now when active you create 1d4+(your blademaster level) image, this functions like the mirror image the spell, it still maintains through additional checks though

Sissyphus
2009-07-16, 11:25 AM
Dropped the new table in hopefully it helps, adding a copy of varied flavor to the flavoring section

Sissyphus
2009-07-17, 10:14 AM
Does anyone else have mechanics comments? i was planning on running this in a game, but i want to know the dm won't have to assassinate a character and force a rebuild due failure to get this balanced.

Sissyphus
2009-07-19, 08:58 AM
Help, Please review it for mechanical problems.

Thrawn183
2009-07-19, 12:59 PM
So between speed strike and focused mind... will you be getting 10 extra attacks at level 20?

In other words, if using the TWF tree and assuming haste from some source (boots of speed, speed weapon etc.) won't that come out to 17 attacks? I see some problems combining this with say a wounding weapon. Or a vorpal one.

Oh man, and this can be combined with Time Stands Still. That's... a lot of rolling.

(Right now this is what's popping out at me, I'll look at the pure damage output soon)

ex cathedra
2009-07-19, 05:08 PM
Ahem. Dexterous Strike. Am I reading this right? Kukri : 1d4 15-20/x7? Yes please. You're level 15, so you should get a full caster to get you some Kaorti Kukris. 15-20 / x9. This... feels problematic. And makes me want Blade Master 17 / Dervish 3, with scimitars. Because you'll need a way to spread the death around, you see, if you have 10+ attacks per round at 15-20/x9, you'll likely never finish a full attack against one foe.

Sissyphus
2009-07-19, 06:22 PM
Maybe drop the focused mind for something else, but at 15th level when a caster can throw 2 quickened 12d6 scorching rays(84) ( without depleting his arsenal, 1d4x7(16) on an attack which has a +11 bab bonus +4 from wisdom, so +15 bonus, aginst a cr 15 foe, the Marut, which has a bab of 34, so if you have a +1 weapon, you'd only hit on an 18, a crit for most crit optimized people anyways, and you make 6 attacks, up to 11 (+2 to an 18 wis) with the bonus hit, you hit 3/20 of the time, or 1.5/10, so you have a good chance of landing just 2 hits on your foe, averaging 32 damage, while a xizard, making an attack to his touch armor of 10 would hit 17/20 times, if he had weapon focus:rays (or touch spells, depends on the dm) 9/10 times, giving them a high chance of hitting all 84 damage, and they can do this for six rounds (3 quickened spells + 3 lesser metamagic wand of quicken) for 12 attacks, he'll probably miss once, for 11 attacks at 462 damage (average). in those same six rounds, you hit your 2 for 32 6 times, dealing 192 damage. If your using brilliant weapons, all bets are off, but the money for that is more than the value of a metamagic rod of quicken (lesser)

Thrawn183
2009-07-19, 09:24 PM
Why don't you change Zen Focus to the reverse of Steadfast Determination? Wis to fort saves and you don't fail a Will save automatically on a natural 1. Right now... you're gonna end up with a +25 will save before a cloak or resistance or your wisdom modifier.

Also, why the odd saving throw progressions?

ex cathedra
2009-07-19, 10:21 PM
Maybe drop the focused mind for something else, but at 15th level when a caster can throw 2 quickened 12d6 scorching rays(84) ( without depleting his arsenal, 1d4x7(16) on an attack which has a +11 bab bonus +4 from wisdom, so +15 bonus, aginst a cr 15 foe, the Marut, which has a bab of 34, so if you have a +1 weapon, you'd only hit on an 18, a crit for most crit optimized people anyways, and you make 6 attacks, up to 11 (+2 to an 18 wis) with the bonus hit, you hit 3/20 of the time, or 1.5/10, so you have a good chance of landing just 2 hits on your foe, averaging 32 damage, while a xizard, making an attack to his touch armor of 10 would hit 17/20 times, if he had weapon focus:rays (or touch spells, depends on the dm) 9/10 times, giving them a high chance of hitting all 84 damage, and they can do this for six rounds (3 quickened spells + 3 lesser metamagic wand of quicken) for 12 attacks, he'll probably miss once, for 11 attacks at 462 damage (average). in those same six rounds, you hit your 2 for 32 6 times, dealing 192 damage. If your using brilliant weapons, all bets are off, but the money for that is more than the value of a metamagic rod of quicken (lesser)

Uhm, what? A +15 at level 15? Let's break this down, and actually assume a Wis/Dex-based level 15 pure Blade Master dual-wielding kukris.

BAB : 11.
Wis Bonus : +7 (Base 16 + 2 from levels +6 enhancement)
Dex Bonus : +7 (Base 18 + 1 from levels +6 enhancement)
Weapons : 2x +1 Keen Kaorti Kukris (partially for the synergy, partially for alliteration; note that it's not unreasonable to expect a nice party wizard to chain GMW on them, but I won't include that here)
Full Attack sequence : +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+7//+17/+12/+7
Unless I'm reading something wrong, that does seem to be what we're looking at. +3 attacks at full attack bonus from Speed Strike, +5 attacks at the same bonus from Meditative Strike. 14 Attacks per round, each at 1d4+1+7/10-20/x9, no?
And that's an absurd lack of consideration of WBL at level 15, as well; your weapon enhancements should be adding disgusting amounts of damage. Collision adds a stupidly good +45 damage/hit. I understand that Melee vs Spellcasting is unbalanced, but making a melee class that invalidates almost every other pure melee class (Initiators excluded, as are full casting gishes, etc., and cheesy things like uberchargers) seems like a bit much to me. But, I could be misinterpreting the abilities in question.

Sissyphus
2009-07-20, 10:37 AM
I think i noted somewhere (probably forgot) but he was supposed to only be able to wield one weapon at once, and in response to your points, i should probably restrict bonuses from the meditative strike somehow, perhaps 1/2 the full bonus on your first attack?

Thrawn183
2009-07-20, 03:24 PM
Well.... restricting it to one weapon certainly doesn't hurt. The real issue is how hard it is to get extra damage on these attacks.

We have:
Meditative Strke: Wis to damage.
Desert Wind: Burning Blade/Searing Blade/Inferno Blade (1d6/2d6/3d6+initiator fire)
Normal Str to damage.

We could have:
Shadow Blade - though this requires feat investment, it's possible to get Dex to damage instead of Str.

Long story short, how much extra damage is required until the fact that you're wielding a 1 handed weapon and not power attacking.... oh I just found a problem. You can wield a 1 handed weapon in 2 hands. You probably need to make the class features not work if you do that. Suddenly Power Attack will look AMAZING if you don't. Anyway, back to the earlier point: once you start getting close to the same amount of damage output per attack, having too many more attacks is...troublesome.

Sissyphus
2009-07-21, 10:22 AM
No restrictions on enchanted weapons, which leaves a gap to add more to your attack, and with wisdom of the ages and dexterous strike, you can make the most of many attacks with a flaming burst weapon, and the 3/4 bab restricts it somewhat, sort of like a monks flurry of blows, but better

Astraden
2009-07-21, 02:09 PM
Speed attack is insane. It completely overlaps the function of the "Speed" enchantment as well as the Slashing Fury feat. Both of which are intended for high level characters, not at freakin 4th level!

Give them this ability twice in 20 levels and force a -5 five penalty to the extra attack and all attacks that same round and then youre getting a lil closer to sane. That way the attacks at say, base attack bonus +15, (20th level) would look more like this-

+10+10+5+0

-instead of an overpowered,

+15+15+15+15+15+15+10+5

-and then the ability is more like an existing feat called Slashing Fury,(Players Handbook II) so as far as game dinamics go its workable, if not completely adviseable as a game dynamic.

Honestly though son, eight attacks a round? Did you even think about that? That should be sooo very out of the question at ANY level for a class ability that trying to reason out why you even considered it is giving me a headache. With enchatments and a few feats that could easily become ten attacks or more a round, not even to mention if a user of this class when into two weapon fighting!

If you wanna keep this ability I'd say at 10th and 20th levels, or even at 15th and 20th to be safe. Any class ability that gives extra attacks is pretty tough anyway, so make sure you tread lightly.

As far as this Meteor Swarm Strike goes....I'm not even gonna go there. Its just too rediculus to wrap my mind around without perminent brain damage...

Back to the drawing board kiddo...

Sissyphus
2009-07-21, 08:09 PM
Meteor storm strike isn't as dangerous as you make it sound, lets take the example of a 20th level blade master, he gets speed strike (+5) and focused mind (+5) speed (+1), (assuming one handed, 14 attacks), now flip over into attack bonus, start with +15 (bab), +7(wis), +5 (weapon bonus), +2 (weapon focus, greater weapon focus), total: +29, now for damge, how about a Speedy flaming burst silver rapier (1d6+1d6(fire) average 6), onto the crit's 13-20(-5 wisdom of the ages)|x7(+5 dexterous strike), when you initialize Meteor storm Strike your attacks jump to 28, made at +14, with a crit range of 11-20|x8, so at best you can hit a target with an ac 34, on average you hit a target with ac of 24, while that means you could devastate weak enemies (15 10th level fighters (avg 70 hp) you can't hit many appropriatly cr'd foes for any decent amount (ac of 29=hit 5/20 time for x8 damage (confirm only 5/20 times, so actually 1/16=crit) you make a total of 24 attacks so 1.2 hits, with a confirm rate of 0.3, averaging damage not to much over what you'd be capable of doing anyways (3 rounds you hit the equivalent of 10 times(48 dmg), a 20th level fighter could match that).

Astraden
2009-07-21, 11:31 PM
Ok so what youre saying is that the fact you get (what did you say, 14 attacks a round?) is balanced out by the fact that (apparently) you dont know how to spec for damage? :smallconfused: Im not sure where u were going with this bud but nobody else who plays this class is going to just sit on thier hands and run YOUR one build all day. There gonna max out damage about as fast as they can (assumeing they can read and add/subtract like any average 5th grader)! Makeing this class so unbelieveably OP that you cant really even conisder it as a viable addition to any reasonable game.

The fact is that any combat based class that will smoke a fighter of equal level EVRY TIME based on similar feats is OBVIOUSLY OP. The books we all know and love state time and time again that the fighter is the bar by which all combat related issues are judged. Be it monster CR or party damage output/hp/ac/ exc exc. And a fighter gets smoked every time by a character than can crank out more hits per round that his toatal base attack bonus...flat out fact. Let alone any other nasty lil add ons you gave this rediculus thing u call a class.

So unless youre planning to restrict the use of this class to just youre ONE build, then I'd say you need to rethink it, or just scrap it. Because like a few of my counterparts said earlier, even if youre adding it to an existing game that has a backdrop for such a over the top class, the slot youre trying to fill is already taken by swordsage and duelist; so your ebasically just re-inventing the wheel here anyway (albiet a wheel thats on enough steroids to make A-Rod choke). :smallyuk:

Tough cookies, but its the way it is.

elliott20
2009-07-22, 04:47 AM
Astraden, I don't think "overpowering" fighter is that valid of a criticism anymore, what with ToB being considered the new standard for melee classes. Now if a game were to not allow any of the ToB or alternate melee classes, that would be a valid criticism.

But you did bring up a very valid point in that the ToB classes actually already fills a lot of what this class is trying to do. The problem that you listed is a real one, I think, where the class already comes out more powerful than a lot of ToB builds without any crunch. This is going to be a problem.

I also am not convinced about the "fight X rounds and get this power for free" mechanic. I don't know. Maybe I'm just not looking at it correctly but I just don't feel that's a good way to go.