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The_Werebear
2005-09-02, 05:42 PM
Ok, I have tried to do something like this before with the expert class, but due to the general weakness of the heal skill compared to healing spells I wasn't able to get it very far. *So, here is my take on a completely new class (20 level progression)

Combat Medic
Level Special
1 * * *Healing Hands, Heal Bonus, Oath
2 * * *Sprint for Survival
3 * * *Stabilize
4 * * *Special Medicine
5 * * *Brew Potions
6 * * *Bonus Feat
7
8 * * *Sprint for Survival 2/day
9
10 * *Bonus Feat
11 * *Recovery
12 * *Stitch ‘em up
13
14 * *Bonus Feat
15 * *Improved Special Medicine
16 * *Sprint for Survival 3/day
17
18 * *Master’s Healing Hands
19
20 * *Full Recovery
Full Base attack bonus, good will and reflex saves, poor fortitude saves HD-d6

The Combat Medic is a class that is all about survival. Not their own, but that of their friends and allies. *They can be found in all sorts of dangerous situations, from an adventuring party to an army in war, to a village that needs someone to fix up injuries sustained in everyday life. *Humans are frequently Combat Medics, especially in areas where priestly magic isn’t always available. *Elves take the path of the Combat medic more rarely, since magic is more common to them. Dwarves usually have a medic or two with their strike forces. *Halflings usually have a medic with their traveling caravans. *Among the savage humanoids there is rarely the altruism needed to become a Combat Medic.

Skills: Craft(int), Diplomacy(cha), Heal(wis), Listen(wis), Profession(wis), Search(int), Sense Motive(wis), Spot(wis), Survival(wis)

Abilities
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: *The Combat medic is proficient with all marial weapons and hand crossbows. *They are proficient with all light armor.

Healing Hands: (Ex) The Combat medic is a genius when it comes to bandaging, and splinting. *As a two full round actions, the Combat Medic may apply a bandage to a character, healing an amount equal to a heal check. At level 18, they may do this as one full round action.

Heal Bonus: (Ex) *As a result from their training, Combat Medics know huge amounts about healing and otherwise fixing wounds. *They receive a bonus on heal checks equal to their wisdom modifier + their class level divided by three. (Example, Sanam, a combat medic is level 4 with a wisdom of 17. *He receives a +2 bonus on heal checks (4+3)/3)

Sprint For Survival: *Time is of the essence when treating a wound, and a Combat medic must be able to get anywhere on the battlefield in time to save their friends. *Once per day, A Combat medic may double their move speed for one round ( Sanam has a base speed of 30. *He sees his friend is about to be killed so he activates his sprint, making his base speed 60 for the remainder of the round) This increases to 2/day at level 8 and 3/day at level 16

Stabilize: *The combat medic may automatically stabalize a character between –1 and –9 as a free action

Special Medicine: *The Combat Medic knows many remedies for many diseases and poisons. *He may counteract a poison or a disease by making a heal check as opposed to the save dc of the infection. * This doesn’t work on supernatural diseases like mummy rot or lycanthropy. *At level 15, the Combat Medic may heal even supernatural disease with this ability

Brew Potions: *A Combat Medic gains the Brew Potions feat for free, and may brew potions as a cleric of the same level

Bonus Feat: *The combat medics presence in many combats has taught them a trick or two. *They make take a feat off the fighter bonus feat list.

Recovery: *At level 11, the combat medic’s knowledge is so advanced they can actually pull people back over the brink from death. *Provided that this ability is used no later than one minute per level of Combat medic, the Combat medic may perform Raise Dead. *This functions exactly as the spell, with a caster level equal to Combat Medic level.
At level 20, the combat medic may instead perform a True Resurrection.

Stich ‘em up: *The combat medic is masterful at making repairs to the most server damage anyone can suffer. *The Combat medic can re-attach limbs that have been severed provided that they have been removed no longer than 10 minutes per level of Combat Medic.

Oath: Upon becoming a Combat Medic, that person swears to help heal. If they ever let a person die willingly when they could have helped, they lose all combat medic abilities, and can no longer advance as a Combat Medic. This does not include people who have were injured trying to do another bodily harm.*An attonement spell restores the abilites and allows adavancement again. *

How does it look?

MisterRaziel
2005-09-02, 05:46 PM
It looks pretty good. Not so sure I get where the oath is coming from - they don't get their powers from any divine source, so why would they suddenly lose all their healing knowledge and skills?

I understand the hippocratic oath, but you get a lot of back alley doctors (read: "evil" doctors) and unethical surgeons who abuse their healing powers.

You know, come to think of it, it really reminds me of the Paramedic prestige class from D20 modern.

But this would really be a boon in a low-magic campaign.

Jerthanis
2005-09-02, 05:59 PM
If you've ever seen the Miniatures handbook there's a healer class in there, though I don't know if it's exactly what you might be looking for. The combat medic seems alright as an NPC class, but I don't understand two things: Brew Potion and True Ressurection at level 20. Brew Potion allows you to put your own spells into potion form, but you mention that they brew as clerics instead... this allows them to brew potions of Bull's Strength, and Divine Power and stuff like that when they're really only suited to brewing potions of cure, and maybe nullify poison and even then I think they should be limited to lower level spells. Also, True Ressurection means you can bring someone back from the dead even if you don't have a body... all you need is a lock of hair, a single finger, just knowing his name and birth and death dates... and that seems FAR beyond the level of skill and knowledge and into the realm of magic. You could specify that they don't lose any hit dice or experience for having died, but otherwise it should adhere to the rules for the earlier ability to raise dead.

just my two cents...

ILM
2005-09-02, 06:05 PM
It's a funny class. It gets full BAB for no real reason, it's a medic but its only weak save is its Fort save, and some of its abilities a pretty damn powerful on an individual level, like Stabilize (especially at only 3rd level), Special Medicine, Recovery/Stitch'em Up (no limit on times/day ?).

On the other hand, it gets no spells, no feats, no abilities which work directly towards actually hurting enemies, and is as such massively underpowered in and of itself. Ever seen a player take a Healer (from MiniHB) to level 20 ? It's a disaster in terms of power-level. This one is much, much worse.

The_Werebear
2005-09-02, 06:19 PM
Hmm.. Ok, so remove the oath, modify brew potions to be limited to cure potions of the appropriate level, and change Full recovery to need the body.

ILM, the reason it has Full BAB is exactly that. It has no other way to do damage. The way I see it playing is for the first few rounds to be ranged attacking from the back, and around round three or 4 to come up and start fixing people. Do you have any suggestions for improving it?

ElderAtronach
2005-09-02, 06:23 PM
Out of curiosity Werebear, do you play Guild Wars? Some of the names of those special abilities sound awfully like some of the skills in GW :P

The_Werebear
2005-09-02, 06:24 PM
Never played it in my life. I am a WoW man. I just came up with them off the top of my head because they sounded fairly cool and appropriate

Jerthanis
2005-09-02, 06:38 PM
Actually, I quite like the healer from the Miniatures handbook... I've never seen one taken to level 20, but I've never seen ANYTHING taken to level 20. Bards make excellent 5th party members, and Healers make excellent 6th party members... admittedly 6 player parties aren't all that common as far as I know, but a party with a healer will be able to take bigger monsters and have a lot more staying power... and when there's already a cleric in the party I pity the enemies of that party.

Ayana
2005-09-02, 06:43 PM
These are common issues with the non-magical healer concept in DnD. It's hard to justify offensive powers in terms of the concept and very very very few players want to be the walking first aid cabinet.

Expanding the concept some you could give them access to crafting and using a series of new poisons and boosters with the flavor of sedatives, stimulants, etc. This would go well with proeficiency in some new exotic weapons that could deliver these substances without causing large damage themselves. (A syringe type melee weapon, darts, blowguns, etc d2 damage)

The_Werebear
2005-09-02, 11:26 PM
Now that is an interesting concept..

Ok,so.. instead of brew potions, they get a list of specific items they can start brewing. Also, maybe poison use at level 5?

Level one: Shrink and Enlarge, Jump
Level 3: Bulls strenght, cat's grace, bear's endurance
Level 5: Rage
Level 7: Haste and Slow
Level 9: Charm Monster
Level 11:Shrink and Enlarge,
Level 13: Flesh to Stone
Level 15:Ethereal Jaunt
Level 17: Horrid Wilting
Level 19:Foresight, Shapechange

They can be delivered two ways. One, through special vials from a hand crossbow or through a syringe

Exotic weapon: Syringe
Dmg 1d3 crit x2
can be used to deliver Combat medic syrums or poisons.

SpiderBrigade
2005-09-02, 11:56 PM
I'd say this is a pretty flavorful class, although I agree that it's lacking some power. It's the sort of thing I'd whip up for a really cool NPC.

One question, though.
Healing Hands: (Ex) The Combat medic is a genius when it comes to bandaging, and splinting. As a two full round actions, the Combat Medic may apply a bandage to a character, healing an amount equal to a heal check. At level 18, they may do this as one full round action.Equal to a heal check? So 1d20+ranks? Wow. It might be necessary to limit how many times this can be used on a character, or parties with even a level 1 healer will have majorly reduced downtime.

Jotoco
2005-09-03, 01:33 AM
Equal to a heal check? So 1d20+ranks? Wow. It might be necessary to limit how many times this can be used on a character, or parties with even a level 1 healer will have majorly reduced downtime.

Oh, Yeah. That and the overpowered effects list for the "potions".
They get things at the same time as wizards do.
I can understand getting healing at the same rate as clerics. But now, this other potions are ridiculous.

I would add that they can create poison using other components.
Poison is so hard to buy and to get that it would a nice enough ability

Venatius
2005-09-03, 02:34 AM
Wasn't there a Combat Medic class or PrC (under that exact name I think, even) published in Heroes of Battle, or whatever that relatively recent supplement was with the rules for wartime games? Maybe I'm way off base here.

ILM
2005-09-03, 06:35 AM
Wasn't there a Combat Medic class or PrC (under that exact name I think, even) published in Heroes of Battle, or whatever that relatively recent supplement was with the rules for wartime games? Maybe I'm way off base here.
Yes, and it absolutely rocks. HoB is a pretty good book in terms of PrCs.

The_Werebear
2005-09-03, 11:22 AM
I'd say this is a pretty flavorful class, although I agree that it's lacking some power. *It's the sort of thing I'd whip up for a really cool NPC.

One question, though.
Equal to a heal check? So 1d20+ranks? *Wow. *It might be necessary to limit how many times this can be used on a character, or parties with even a level 1 healer will have majorly reduced downtime.

That is kinda why I had them as underpowered offensively. In two rounds, they can do insane amounts of healing, espcially with the heal bonus, and do it more often then a cleric. The lose the other divine abilities like turning, summoning, a lot of buffing, divinations, and summonings to be master healers. And it is supposed to be all natural, every ability is supposed to be extrodinary, not supernatural, meaning they are a boost higher levels when stuff starts droping antimagic fields. The only reason they had a full BaB is because they are in combat a lot. Now they have it because to deliver any of their offense, or thier buffs from a distance, they have to make attacks. Not TOUCH attacks, but actual break through the armor attacks

As for the potions or posions, I am saying you need a DC whatever survial or gather information check (wild or urban) to collect the components and a equal DC craft alchemy check to acutally make the concoctions. That means while it is possible they can cause some serious problems for people, it is a lot harder and a lot more likely to fail then it is for a wizard

Venatius
2005-09-03, 12:49 PM
Yes, and it absolutely rocks. HoB is a pretty good book in terms of PrCs.

Okay, then that leads me to my next question, then - what does this class do/offer that the existing one doesn't? Not trying to be rude or snarky, it's just an honest consideration. Avoiding redundancy with existing classes/PrCs should be a goal of class design, IMHO.

Jotoco
2005-09-03, 01:04 PM
The only reason they had a full BaB is because they are in combat a lot. Now they have it because to deliver any of their offense, or thier buffs from a distance, they have to make attacks. Not TOUCH attacks, but actual break through the armor attacks

As for the potions or posions, I am saying you need a DC whatever survial or gather information check (wild or urban) to collect the components and a equal DC craft alchemy check to acutally make the concoctions. That means while it is possible they can cause some serious problems for people, it is a lot harder and a lot more likely to fail then it is for a wizard

For the offensive thing. I think they should have 3/4 BAB or half. The reason?
I want to give then evasive abilities. Like duelist or something. Things that add ACwhen fighting defensively, wich I think they sould be doing the whole time.

The potions, eventhough you would have a hard time making, you can do then even before sorcerers do, and sorcerer is a full caster class.

For the whole healing with heal checks thingy, there are WAY too much. Maybe if we start at first level he heals only 50% of the check, and every level thereafter he gains +10% on top of that, till 100% AND beginning at 10th level he would gain another 10% up to 200% at 19th level.

The_Werebear
2005-09-03, 02:12 PM
I think I will drop the BaB down to average

Also, I am changing the potions. No offensive ones, just stat enhancing potions. They wont be specific ones from the PHB. The amount of effect they will be able to get is their character level divided by four, rouded up.. So a level 10 Combat Medic can make a potion of +3 consitiution. The DC to find ingredients, and later to make the potion, is 15+the bonus of the potion multiplied by two.

I am not sure how to implement your idea Jotoco. I like it a lot, but I dont want to deal with a lot of percentages. It gets annoying fast. Also, the healing may seem overpowered, but it takes two full rounds to apply the bandage, and the oponent could kill the medic or the bandagee during those two rounds.

SpiderBrigade
2005-09-03, 03:27 PM
The healing isn't too overpowered in combat. Two rounds is a long time, especially if it's interruptable. You also run the risk of rolling badly. The problem is out of combat: if there's no limit on using it, you could heal the party to full health in under an hour, without spending spells. (Your example, Sanam, could heal 65-160 hp per minute at level 4)

I would recommend not allowing the same character to be bandaged more than once per day. The justification could be that even though the medic is a master bandager, there's only so much that non-magical first aid can do. The body still needs time to heal under the bandages, etc.

Also, if there were a way to make the "Healing Hands" grow stronger by class level, that would be good. At present there's not much to discourage a heal-focused cleric from dipping one level of Combat Medic just for healing hands, since he'll already have good wisdom and ranks in heal.

Jotoco
2005-09-03, 04:27 PM
I would recommend not allowing the same character to be bandaged more than once per day. The justification could be that even though the medic is a master bandager, there's only so much that non-magical first aid can do. The body still needs time to heal under the bandages, etc.

Like that. It's easier to pull out than my idea. Though you don't put a step up in the ability.

Well, so here I go.

Increased Healing Hands (you can change the name)
At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, the Healer can heal 50% more. He rolls his Heal check and multiplies it for 1.5.
Example: Sanam at level 5 rolls 28 as his heal check. With increased HH he reals 1.5 X 28 = 42. If he rolled the same number in level 10 he would heal 2 X 28 = 56. At 20 this lame roll (that must be a natural 2 or so.) he would heal 3 X 28 = 84. Not bad, Huh?

Is it ok?

Jotoco
2005-09-03, 04:49 PM
For the defensive thingy:

Defensive healing:
A Combat Healer can add half his BAB + 1 per 4 levels to his AC while healing.

I think adding the tumble skill is useful. Specially when fighting defensive.

Canny Defense:
He can add half his int mod (rounded down, min 0 ) to his AC when using light or no armor. This can't be higher than half the class level.

The_Werebear
2005-09-03, 08:34 PM
All excellent ideas

Ok, people can be bandaged no more than twice a day. *Stich em up and Recovery count as bandaging
At level 7, They heal 1.5x heal check. At level 18 with master's healing hands, they heal 2x heal check.
While bandaging, they gain a bonus to ac equal to 1/4 of thier Combat medic level

Ok, I am gonna repost the class with the improvments so far

Combat Medic
Level Special
1 * * *Healing Hands, Heal Bonus,
2 * * *Sprint for Survival
3 * * *Stabilize
4 * * *Special Medicine
5 * *
6 * * *Bonus Feat
7 * * *Improved Healing Hands
8 * * *Sprint for Survival 2/day
9
10 * *Bonus Feat
11 * *Recovery
12 * *Stitch ‘em up
13
14 * *Bonus Feat
15 * *Improved Special Medicine
16 * *Sprint for Survival 3/day
17
18 * *Master’s Healing Hands
19
20 * *Full Recovery

Skills: Craft:alchemy(int), Diplomacy(cha), Heal(wis), Listen(wis), Profession(wis), Search(int), Sense Motive(wis), Spot(wis), Survival(wis), Tumble(dex)

3/4 attack bonus, good will and reflex saves, poor fortitude saves HD-d6

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: *The Combat medic is proficient with all marial weapons and hand crossbows. *They are proficient with all light armor.

Healing Hands: (Ex) The Combat medic is a genius when it comes to bandaging, and splinting. *As a two full round actions, the Combat Medic may apply a bandage to a character, healing an amount equal to a heal check. At level 18, they may do this as one full round action. And individual person can be healed no more than twice per day. *At level 7, they may heal 1.5x thier heal check damage. *At level 18, they heal 2x thier heal check. *While bandaging, they gain a dodge bonus to their ac equal to 1/4 of their level

Heal Bonus: (Ex) *As a result from their training, Combat Medics know huge amounts about healing and otherwise fixing wounds. *They receive a bonus on heal checks equal to their wisdom modifier + their class level divided by three. (Example, Sanam, a combat medic is level 4 with a wisdom of 17. *He receives a +2 bonus on heal checks (4+3)/3)

Sprint For Survival: (Ex) Time is of the essence when treating a wound, and a Combat medic must be able to get anywhere on the battlefield in time to save their friends. *Once per day, A Combat medic may double their move speed for one round ( Sanam has a base speed of 30. *He sees his friend is about to be killed so he activates his sprint, making his base speed 60 for the remainder of the round) This increases to 2/day at level 8 and 3/day at level 16

Stabilize: (Ex) The combat medic may automatically stabalize a character between –1 and –9 as a free action

Special Medicine: (Ex) The Combat Medic knows many remedies for many diseases and poisons. *He may counteract a poison or a disease by making a heal check as opposed to the save dc of the infection. * This doesn’t work on supernatural diseases like mummy rot or lycanthropy. *At level 15, the Combat Medic may heal even supernatural disease with this ability. *The combat medic may also make useful stimulants. *They can give a bonus to a chosen stat and are consumed like a potion is. The DC(survival or gather information) to find ingredients, and later to make the potion(craft:alchemy), is 15+the bonus of the potion multiplied by two. For example, Sanam, a level 10 combat medic, can make potions of up to +3 enhancement bonus. *The DC for that is 21 (15+3x2)

Bonus Feat: *The combat medics presence in many combats has taught them a trick or two. *They make take a feat off the fighter bonus feat list.

Recovery: (Ex) At level 11, the combat medic’s knowledge is so advanced they can actually pull people back over the brink from death. *Provided that this ability is used no later than one minute per level of Combat medic, the Combat medic may perform Raise Dead. *This functions exactly as the spell, with a caster level equal to Combat Medic level.
At level 20, the combat medic may instead perform a True Resurrection, except the body must be mostly intact. *This heals damage as, and counts for a bandaging for the day.

Stich ‘em up: (Ex) The combat medic is masterful at making repairs to the most server damage anyone can suffer. *The Combat medic can re-attach limbs that have been severed provided that they have been removed no longer than 10 minutes per level of Combat Medic. This heals damage as and counts for a bandaging for the day.

How does it look now? *Keep the suggestions and comments coming!