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Gamebird
2005-08-04, 03:01 PM
In a table top game I play in, the DM has a 3rd and 5th level version of the Wish spell. *The descriptions he gave for what the spells did were really vague, so it wasn't until I got 5th level spells that I bothered to learn them. *But now I'm stuck with a vague, almost contradictory description. *I hate that. *So I've come up with some alternatives, based on the book's descriptions for Wish and Limited Wish. *Also, I tweaked Wish and Limited Wish slightly.

Do you think my descriptions for the lower level versions are okay? *Are they too powerful? *Should they be nerfed and how much? *Are the tweaks for Wish and Limited Wish okay?

WISH SPELLS

Cantrip
Universal
Level: * * *Sor/Wiz 1
Components: * * *V, S (+XP, see text)
Casting Time: * * *1 standard action
Range: * * *See text
Target, Effect or Area: * * *See text
Duration: * * *See text
Saving Throw: * * *None; see text
Spell Resistance: * * *Yes
The cantrip spell can do any of the following things.
∑ * * *Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard 0 level spell, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
∑ * * *Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.
∑ * * *Create a non-magical item that is worth no more than 2.5 gp. *If this option is chosen, the caster must pay 5 XP.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 1st-level spell).
XP Cost
A cantrip spell incurs an XP cost only when used to create an item. *In this case, it costs 5 XP (see above).

Minor Wish
Universal
Level: * * *Sor/Wiz 3
Components: * * *V, S, XP (5+)
Casting Time: * * *1 standard action
Range: * * *See text
Target, Effect or Area: * * *See text
Duration: * * *See text
Saving Throw: * * *None; see text
Spell Resistance: * * *Yes
A minor wish can do any of the following things.
∑ * * *Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 2nd level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
∑ * * *Duplicate any other spell of 1st level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
∑ * * *Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 1st level or lower, even if itís of a prohibited school.
∑ * * *Duplicate any other spell of 0 level, even if itís of a prohibited school.
∑ * * *Allow up to +3 level adjustments of metamagic feats to be applied to the next spell the caster casts. *This subsequent spell must be cast within 1 round per level of the caster and cannot be higher than third level as a base.
∑ * * *Allow up to +1 level adjustments of metamagic feats to be applied to a spell cast by someone else. *This subsequent spell must be cast within 1 round per level of the caster and cannot be higher than third level as a base. *It can also affect a spell already in effect if the metamagic feat is appropriate (enhancing duration, or extending area of effect on a non-instant spell).
∑ * * *Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically confirming a critical hit on their next critical threat or taking a -3 penalty on its next saving throw.
∑ * * *Create a magical or non-magical item that is worth no more than 25 gp. *If this option is chosen, the caster must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5 XP.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 3rd-level spell). When a minor wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 5 XP, whichever is more. When a minor wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 5 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost
5 XP or more (see above).

Demi-Wish
Universal
Level: * * *Sor/Wiz 5
Components: * * *V, S, XP (50+)
Casting Time: * * *1 standard action
Range: * * *See text
Target, Effect or Area: * * *See text
Duration: * * *See text
Saving Throw: * * *None; see text
Spell Resistance: * * *Yes
A demi-wish can do any of the following things.
∑ * * *Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 4th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
∑ * * *Duplicate any other spell of 3rd level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
∑ * * *Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 3rd level or lower, even if itís of a prohibited school.
∑ * * *Duplicate any other spell of 2nd level or lower, even if itís of a prohibited school.
∑ * * *Allow up to +5 level adjustments of metamagic feats to be applied to the next spell the caster casts. *This subsequent spell must be cast within 1 round per level of the caster and cannot be higher than fifth level as a base.
∑ * * *Allow up to +3 level adjustments of metamagic feats to be applied to a spell cast by someone else. *This subsequent spell must be cast within 1 round per level of the caster and cannot be higher than fifth level as a base. *It can also affect a spell already in effect if the metamagic feat is appropriate (enhancing duration, or extending area of effect on a non-instant spell).
∑ * * *Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically confirming a critical hit on their next hit or taking a -5 penalty on its next saving throw.
∑ * * *Create a magical or non-magical item that is worth no more than 250 gp, or improve an existing itemís powers or value by no more than 250 gp. *If this option is chosen, the caster must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 50 XP.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 5th-level spell). When a demi-wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 50 XP, whichever is more. When a demi-wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 250 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost
50 XP or more (see above).

Limited Wish
Universal
Level: * * *Sor/Wiz 7
Components: * * *V, S, XP (500+)
Casting Time: * * *1 standard action
Range: * * *See text
Target, Effect or Area: * * *See text
Duration: * * *See text
Saving Throw: * * *None; see text
Spell Resistance: * * *Yes
A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.
∑ * * *Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
∑ * * *Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
∑ * * *Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if itís of a prohibited school.
∑ * * *Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower, even if itís of a prohibited school.
∑ * * *Allow up to +7 level adjustments of metamagic feats to be applied to the next spell the caster casts. *This subsequent spell must be cast within 1 round per level of the caster and cannot be higher than seventh level as a base.
∑ * * *Allow up to +5 level adjustments of metamagic feats to be applied to a spell cast by someone else. *This subsequent spell must be cast within 1 round per level of the caster and cannot be higher than seventh level as a base. *It can also affect a spell already in effect if the metamagic feat is appropriate (enhancing duration, or extending area of effect on a non-instant spell).
∑ * * *Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
∑ * * *Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.
∑ * * *Create a magical or non-magical item that is worth no more than 2,500 gp, or improve an existing itemís powers or value by no more than 2,500 gp. *If this option is chosen, the caster must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 500 XP.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell). When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 500 XP, whichever is more. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost
500 XP or more (see above).

Wish
Universal
Level: * * *Sor/Wiz 9
Components: * * *V, XP (5,000+)
Casting Time: * * *1 standard action
Range: * * *See text
Target, Effect, or Area: * * *See text
Duration: * * *See text
Saving Throw: * * *See text
Spell Resistance: * * *Yes
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. *Even wish, however, has its limits.
A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
∑ * * *Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
∑ * * *Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
∑ * * *Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if itís of a prohibited school.
∑ * * *Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if itís of a prohibited school.
∑ * * *Allow up to +9 level adjustments of metamagic feats to be applied to the next spell the caster casts. *This subsequent spell must be cast within 1 round per level of the caster and cannot be higher than ninth level as a base.
∑ * * *Allow up to +7 level adjustments of metamagic feats to be applied to a spell cast by someone else. *This subsequent spell must be cast within 1 round per level of the caster and cannot be higher than ninth level as a base. *It can also affect a spell already in effect if the metamagic feat is appropriate (enhancing duration, or extending area of effect on a non-instant spell).
∑ * * *Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
∑ * * *Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
∑ * * *Create a magic item of up to 25,000 gp in value, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. *Any addition to the powers of an existing item cannot raise the itemís value more than 25,000 gp.
∑ * * *Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
∑ * * *Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
∑ * * *Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
∑ * * *Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
∑ * * *Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponentís successful save, a foeís successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friendís failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment. *If you stay within the guidelines bulleted above, there is no chance your wish will be perverted or twisted unless you it is intentionally cast that way by the being granting the wish.
Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells). *When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost
The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.


Edit history: 1) Edited Minor Wish to change "next hit" to "next critical threat"
2) Added level limit to metamagic effects.

Titanium_Dragon
2005-08-04, 03:31 PM
Well...

Minor wish *is kind of iffy. The biggest "iffy" part about it, though, is:


Allow up to +3 level adjustments of metamagic feats to be applied to the next spell the caster casts. *This subsequent spell must be cast within 1 round per level of the caster.
...
Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically confirming a critical hit on their next hit or taking a -3 penalty on its next saving throw.

Those two effects seem out of line with the power of the spell. The first one allows you to maximize another spell... and for a third level spell slot, that may seem costly at low levels, but when you can toss out a maximized disintegrate or polar ray, dealing out absolutely massive amounts of damage, it seems like a lot better trade off and possibly overpowered. At level 6, you'd be able to deal 132 damage with a disintegrate; even if you fix disintegrate so it is actually in line with the charts in the book, such as polar ray or horrid wilting could be maximized, not to mention meteor swarm (the last dealing 192 damage maximized). The higher level effects seem like they could cause even more damage - using a fifth level spell slot to empower and maximize a disintegrate spell to dish out 132+10d6 damage (or 167 damage on average) seems to me to be a pretty good deal, even if it would eat up two actions.

Automatically getting a critical hit is also pretty nasty; if they're wielding something like a scythe that's probably a huge amount of damage; even a greataxe would be dishing out probably an additional 50 damage or so at higher levels. However, if you mean "if they score a critical threat, it is automatically confirmed" rather than "their next hit is automatically a critical", it would probably be alright.

Gamebird
2005-08-04, 03:36 PM
Okay. That was an error between Minor and Demi anyway. Now for Minor it says: "∑ Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically confirming a critical hit on their next critical threat or taking a -3 penalty on its next saving throw. "

And for Demi it stays the same: "∑ Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically confirming a critical hit on their next hit or taking a -5 penalty on its next saving throw. "

I agree with you on the feat thing, but that was the DM's idea, not mine. If he's going to have NPCs use the spell that way, then I certainly want it to work like that for me. Perhaps he has not thought through to the possible broken-ness of that provision. I'll talk to him about it.

Ayana
2005-08-04, 03:50 PM
What about if you limited the spell that can be metamagiced in this way to the level of the Wish spell used? ie. L5 wish could only metamagic L5 or less spells.

Gamebird
2005-08-04, 03:57 PM
That's a good idea. I'll incorporate that. Thanks!

Leperflesh
2005-08-04, 04:23 PM
I don't really like what this does for the Sorcerer's limited list of known spells. A sorcerer who can cast the 3rd level version suddenly has a complete 2nd level spell list, provided he is willing to burn that third-level spell. Each of the higher-level Wishes does this too. I realize this is as-written for the original Wish and Limited Wish spells, but I think the sorcerer's limited spell list is most hampering and restrictive when he's at lower levels. By the time he can cast Limited Wish, he's got a pretty nice varied range of magical abilities to call upon.

OK, you can point to the XP expenditure, but 5 XP for a sorcerer casting 3rd level spells is hardly worth thinking about: winning the encounter in which he casts the spell will usually net a few hundred XP anyway by that point.

Then again, I never really liked Wish anyway. I'd prefer it not to be a knowable or memorizable spell at all... more like a supreme magical effect available only if you find some artifact that grants one, perform some impossible-to-repeat feat or quest which awards you with one, etc.

nerf nerf nerf, nerf the high-level spellcasters. That's my mantra. Don't mind me.

-Lep

Gamebird
2005-08-04, 04:43 PM
Good point. And easily addressed by changing the spell to Wizard only.

It's not a big deal in this table top game because there are no sorcerors or spontaneous arcane casters of any type (even bards have to memorize their spells). But that's an important point.

Ayana
2005-08-04, 04:52 PM
I think a better idea is to keep the spell proportional in xp cost with what it costs for Lesser Wish. Namely to cast Lesser Wish one has to be lev 13 or higher. Lev 13 is 12000xp long, thus the spell costs 1/24 of the level. (Say 1/25 for nice round numbers)

To cast L5 spell you need to be lev 9 or higher. Lev 9 is 8000xp so the cost should be 1/25 xp of that = 320xp

To cast L3 spell you need to be lev 5 or higher. Lev 5 is 4000xp long so the cost should be 1/25 of that = 160xp

To cast L1 spell you need to be lev 1 or higher. Lev 1 is 1000xp long so the cost should be 1/25 of that = 40xp

With too low and xp cost the spell is just as abusable and must have by wizards as it lets them to have wildcard slots through which they can essentially cast any lower spell.

Gamebird
2005-08-04, 04:58 PM
That's a really good point. Though this DM has also changed the xp progression for over 10th level and changed the spell progression too for 6th and higher spells. (Lotsa house rules!) I'll take your suggestion to him. I think it's a good one, because really for Demi-Wish there, 50 xp, I'd be casting that every really serious combat, powering up my other spells or having instant access to whatever spell I happened to need right then. If it cost 300 or 350 xp, I'd be way more reluctant. Which is a good indication about where I perceive the balance point to be, where I start thinking "maybe this isn't a good trade off... might be better off just memorizing Passwall instead of Demi-Wish".

I don't mind high costs for spells, as long as they're consistent. What I hate the most is for the DM to introduce a spell and then jack up the cost later because he decided it was too low to start with.

Ayana
2005-08-04, 06:53 PM
Well, the logic remains the same, just base it on whatever the normal costs in your campaign are.

Now by lev 17-20 or so, a caster could still afford to fling the L3 ones often, but at that point they have a ton of low level slots / daily uses, can easily afford a stack of various low lev scrolls/wands to keep handy, and low level spells stop being so great.

Your DM uses L10+ spells? That sounds neat, I've actually been looking for some info on those for a campaign. What book are they out of?

Gamebird
2005-08-05, 02:08 PM
I'm pretty sure he gets the level 10 spells from 2nd edition. It really doesn't come up much in the game, since we've been playing for over a year and we're around 13th level. It's his version of epic spells.

WhiteMonkey
2005-08-05, 03:14 PM
Donít these spells basically give the Wizard the capability to mimic the Sorcerer's ability to pick spells at random? I mean, itís kind of negating about the only groovy thing about the Sorcerer imho.

Or am I misinterpreting it?

Gamebird
2005-08-05, 03:38 PM
In large part, yes.

It's in a campaign where sorcerors are not a class choice for players and bards have to memorize their spells just like wizards, so it's not like it's stepping on the abilities of a player class.

The spells you'd get would be lower level than the slot you used. If you use Minor Wish to cast whatever 2nd level spell you want, then you've traded a 3rd level slot for a 2nd level effect.

Also, for everything but Cantrip you're paying xp. I talked to the DM and he decided to up the xp for Minor Wish and Demi-Wish a little. Not enough to, in my opinion, nerf the spell enough, but as I'm the wizard my enthusiasm for pursuing a full nerf-fest on the spell is limited.

WhiteMonkey
2005-08-05, 07:59 PM
Ooohhhh. I get it.

Well, then thatís all ok...
Unless youíre a Bard. lol