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The Mentalist
2009-07-20, 10:06 PM
How would one price an item that gives +10 to all skills? I know the RAW method but that seems obscene. What would you consider a reasonable price for said item?

talus21
2009-07-20, 10:10 PM
How would one price an item that gives +10 to all skills? I know the RAW method but that seems obscene. What would you consider a reasonable price for said item?

If I am a player. 42gp. Yes that seems reasonable.

+10 to all skills is pretty nice. I would think it would be pretty pricey.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-20, 10:14 PM
There is a reason that it seems obscene. Becuase such an item would BE obscene.

Especially depending on what you mean by 'All Skills'.

Depending on how you word such an item, you can with the item craft pretty much any type of object, make a good living via any possible carreer, have a decent chance at knowing most basic information in ANY academic field, etc.

How expensive? Prohibitively.

The Mentalist
2009-07-20, 10:17 PM
I'm looking at about 20-30k, how off base am I?

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-20, 10:19 PM
I'm looking at about 20-30k, how off base am I?

Incredibly.

RTGoodman
2009-07-20, 10:21 PM
Well, let's see...

The circlet of persuasion gives you a +3 competence bonus to all Charisma-based skill checks for 4,500gp. That's only about 6 skills, as opposed to the 36 or so in JUST the PHB (not counting those with various sub-skills, like Knowledge, Profession, Perform, and Craft). So, multiply it by at least 6. That'd be 27,000 for a +3 competence bonus to all skills AT MINIMUM, I'd say. Conservatively, I'd say you'd at the very least have to multiply that 10 to 15 times to make up the difference, which still puts you a +/- 300,000gp.

The normal rules would only cost you 360,000, disregarding multiple subskills, so that's not actually that bad.


EDIT: Did the math with skill bonuses costing (Bonus Squared x 100)gp, and for a +3 bonus to 36 skills, that's still 32,400gp.

The Mentalist
2009-07-20, 10:22 PM
That +3 to skills should work.

Thurbane
2009-07-20, 10:25 PM
A Ring Of Improved Jumping gives +10 to one skill, for 10,000gp. A Stone of Good Luck gives +1 to all skills checks (as well as saving throws and ability checks), and that's 20,000gp.

+10 to all skills is going to get very expensive. :smalleek:

The Mentalist
2009-07-20, 10:27 PM
I haven't looked at making magic items recently enough then. (darn Artificer ban) I'll just fine tune the skill selection.

Anxe
2009-07-20, 11:14 PM
60,000-100,000.

Shinizak
2009-07-20, 11:16 PM
Okay, an important question: Are you a player or a DM?

The Mentalist
2009-07-20, 11:22 PM
This is an NPC I'm working on, so DM in this case. I just don't want to hand waive this, because it may end up in the party's hands if said guy dies in the battle.

Shinizak
2009-07-20, 11:43 PM
The DMG has an interesting method for handling this, All you really have to do is say "on (insert name here)'s shoulder appears to be a strange shining tattoo. As his body grows cold the glow dims until it is no more" Not only will you have a magic item the party can't use, but they'll also be scratching their heads worrying if someone might be coming after them.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-21, 12:03 AM
40 skills in core(counting monster-knowleges as seperate)(and about 10 outside of it that no one uses and can be ignored). +10 to one skill costs 10K. 400K seems high, since most people won't use that many skills. Appraise, Balance, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Forgery, Jump, Profession, Speak Language, and Use Rope are all rarely/never used for actual checks and should be dropped from the price. 300 K is still high, though. Toss in a 24-hour "acclimating" period, and figure any character won't use certain skills unless they're the most invested in them(Disable Device, etc) and you can drop another 10 skills. 200 K seems reasonable enough, since it's an incredible item that will always be useful.

The Mentalist
2009-07-21, 12:04 AM
It would also be a good way to figure out who he is if they can see the tattoo, I like it. (He's a Factorum/Chameleon/Master of Masks/Exemplar, he plays at least a dozen different rolls)

Strawman
2009-07-21, 12:36 AM
I think that an item as good as that one would be insane to keep in a shop. Theives would come from miles away for it. That's the kind of thing kept in monster-filled dungeons and sold to leaders of guilds. At least 200k in my book.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-21, 02:18 AM
Let's take a look at the Circlet of Persuasion:
+3 to Cha-based skills, 4500 gp
4500/(3^3)=500, so it's bonus squared times 500 gp
For +10 to Cha-based skills/checks it would be 50,000 gp
For +10 to Str-based skills/checks it would be +50,000 gp
For +10 to Dex-based skills/checks it would be +50,000 gp
For +10 to Con-based skills/checks it would be +50,000 gp
For +10 to Int-based skills/checks it would be +50,000 gp
For +10 to Wis-based skills/checks it would be +50,000 gp

Therefore, an item that grants +10 to all skills and all ability checks would cost 300,000 gp. That includes Str-based checks like Trip and Bull Rush, Dex-based checks like Initiative, Con-based checks such as anything mentioned in the Endurance feat, Int-based checks such as Bardic Knowledge, Wis-based checks of which nothing comes to mind, and Cha-based checks such as Turning checks.

Philaenas
2009-07-21, 02:44 AM
40 skills in core(counting monster-knowleges as seperate)(and about 10 outside of it that no one uses and can be ignored). +10 to one skill costs 10K. 400K seems high, since most people won't use that many skills. Appraise, Balance, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Forgery, Jump, Profession, Speak Language, and Use Rope are all rarely/never used for actual checks and should be dropped from the price. 300 K is still high, though. Toss in a 24-hour "acclimating" period, and figure any character won't use certain skills unless they're the most invested in them(Disable Device, etc) and you can drop another 10 skills. 200 K seems reasonable enough, since it's an incredible item that will always be useful.

Funnily, I think climb, jump and balance are amongst my most rolled skill checks in any D&D campaign. Appraise comes in somewhere in the middle.

Also, I think 300.000 gp sounds very reasonable for an item like this. Yet I wonder what an item like this would look like? It would almost have to some sort of suit that enhances every aspect of your body, maybe a bit like that black suit Spiderman sometimes has :p.

bosssmiley
2009-07-21, 05:44 AM
How would one price an item that gives +10 to all skills? I know the RAW method but that seems obscene. What would you consider a reasonable price for said item?

I would consider a price somewhere between "No" and "Hell NO!" to be reasonable for this. An omni-skill bonus item is definitely Epic (i.e. broken) in scope.

(aside: skills are already sufficiently degraded and meaningless without this kind of cheese infesting the game.)

kamikasei
2009-07-21, 05:57 AM
Why not just give him normal skill- or ability-boosting items? A blanket "boosts all skills" item isn't just unbalanced but seems like overkill - why would he not just have items to boost those few skills he feels really need it? After all, as a Factotum he has class features to provide skill boosts when necessary.

ericgrau
2009-07-21, 05:58 AM
Well there's 300k from above for +10 competence to all skills or if we go by the stone of good luck then that's 20k x (10 x 10) = 2 million for a +10 luck bonus to all skills.

I think the 2 million is closer to reasonable (if not another x10 for being epic). Why? When they give a +3 to all cha skills they know which skills it might be used on and those are fairly reasonable skills except UMD. Even then by the time you can afford it your UMD is pretty high anyway and doesn't need to be much higher. Even then a +3 is the best you can get; not a +5 to +15 like other skills. Many other skills are notably devoid of magic items that boost them. In fact I often hear of players trying to abuse the system by designing custom items to give skill bonuses to these.

If you limited it to existing skills that already have items with a high bonus and made it a competence bonus so it doesn't stack with existing items, then I think it would be reasonable to use the standard bonus x bonus x 100 gp (10,000gp per skill). Or give individual existing items it like kamikasei said.

Haarkla
2009-07-21, 06:22 AM
Yet I wonder what an item like this would look like? It would almost have to some sort of suit that enhances every aspect of your body, maybe a bit like that black suit Spiderman sometimes has :p.
I would imagine a crown or circlet, magnificently bejewelled, principly with clear stones such as diamonds, affecting your mind and making you hyper competent and skillful at everything.

200,000 gps seems about right.

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-21, 06:26 AM
I would consider a price somewhere between "No" and "Hell NO!" to be reasonable for this. An omni-skill bonus item is definitely Epic (i.e. broken) in scope.

(aside: skills are already sufficiently degraded and meaningless without this kind of cheese infesting the game.)

Which is why you consider that an artifact.

No, seriously. An item that grants at least a +10 to ALL SKILLS cannot be measured that well; at the very least, it must be an epic magic item which is severely out of your league.

According to what the SRD says and rtg points out, a bonus to ONE skill costs a minimum of the bonus squared times 100 gp. if it's a +10, then that's basically 10 squared times 100, or 100 x 100 which is 10,000 gp.

Now, the core list of skills is 37 (all the PHB skills plus Control Shape which is on the MM). That's a minimum of 370,000 gp, and that's without adding the other skills missing (Autohypnosis, Knowledge [psionics], Psicraft, Use Psionic Device, Truenaming, Iaijutsu Focus and Martial Lore, which is around 7 extra abilities considering I don't forget any). That's an extra 70,000 gp to the mix, for a grand total of 440,000. Now, consider that Knowledge, Craft, Perform and Profession are considered separate lists: if you're not considering "all Craft/Knowledge/Perform/Profession" skills as a single set of skills, the amount grows quite a bit.

Now, if we are going by the rules of Magic Item Compendium, the darned skill is beyond level 30, which means it's fit for a character beyond 30th level. Heck, the original rules imply that an item costing over 200k gold pieces is already an epic magic item: this item is 2.2 times over the normal magic item GP limit. If by both rulings it exceeds, and it has such a ruling for the sub-divided skills, it has to be considered almost by definition a minor artifact.

Now, if you don't want a minor artifact to fall into their hands, you have to be creative. The new edition has rules for artifacts where they don't always remain in the hands of the PCs: they leave, but leaving a boon for the old owner. Consider the minor artifact a gift from a very powerful patron (perhaps the BBEG of the campaign), and put a clause where the item simply disappears. Being an artifact, it means that the BBEG probably IS a very powerful individual, or is in consort of someone with epic levels: this allows it to teleport to the original owner or the original creator with disregard for spells like Dimensional Lock or Dimensional Anchor. Make it so that the item disappears while your PCs are doing a Search, or make it so difficult to Search that it may pass for an inconspicuous object (something high-level PCs may consider worthless to sell) Given that the item is a minor artifact, it can't be analyzed that easily, which may cause the PCs to bang in frustration when they apparently sell for a very low penny a very potent artifact. Furthermore, the activation clause must be pretty obscure, so that even if they manage to outsmart you and find it's an artifact, no one gets the bonus unless it becomes your little puppet does a little sidequest proposed by you.

Of course, as exposed earlier, the aforementioned cost is for competence bonuses, so a bonus of insight or luck may cost even more. But still, that item is definitely a minor artifact, and one that should not reach your player's hands.

Swordguy
2009-07-21, 06:44 AM
*ninja'd*

Well, I took too long writing up my response - T.G. Oskar basically nailed it. It's not a magic item; it's an artefact (or artifact, if you prefer). What's more, it ought to have a pretty impressive disadvantage to go with it. I'd suggest something amusing with Feeblemind in direct proportion to how often you use the artefact.

I'd put it at a ballpark price between 250,000 and 500,000gp (leaning towards the 375-450k range), with a clarification needed... When it says "all skills", is that really saying "every possible permutation of Knowledge/Craft/Profession skills"? If so, it doesn't have a value. Period. It's literally priceless. That's an infinite number of bonuses to skill checks.

Under NO circumstances should the PCs be allowed to create this as a custom magic item, regardless.

Riffington
2009-07-21, 07:25 AM
As listed, straight up, it's probably an artifact. I think you can get it down to a reasonable level pretty easily though with a simple limitation:
It gives a bonus to each skill equal to your ranks in the skill (capped at 10).
Now, it's still incredibly useful to anyone who uses their skills (and if they don't, then wtf?) It just doesn't make your cleric sneaky and tumbly and UMD-y and "plays every instrument known to Apollo"-y.

With that limitation, it's probably good for about 7 skills, so 10k for the first, 15k for the other 6 = 100k. At which price, it's a steal.

zugschef
2009-07-21, 09:33 AM
going strictly by the dmg custom magic item guidelines, such an item would actually cost even more.

let's get back to the circlet of persuasion. since it's on your head, it works just fine for your mental abilities. for the physical abilities you have to pay 50% more. and since adding a magical property to a magic item costs an additional 50%, you would have to increase the price again.

+10 to charisma makes 50k
+10 to int makes 50k+50%
+10 to wis makes 50k+50%
+10 to con makes 50k+100%
+10 to dex makes 50k+100%
+10 to str makes 50k+100%

-> (50+75*2+100*3)k = 500k gp

and you know what? it still would be way underpriced.

btw, if it's a tattoo, the cost would double since it's unslotted:

+10 to charisma makes 50k
+10 to int makes 50k
+10 to wis makes 50k
+10 to con makes 50k+50%
+10 to dex makes 50k+50%
+10 to str makes 50k+50%

->375k*2 = 750k gp

suprise: it's way underpriced.^^

but since it's for an npc, it should be ok, though i wonder how a non-epic and non-divine npc got such a powerful item. *g*

Anxe
2009-07-21, 09:47 AM
You guys are pricing it way too high. Compare it to other items instead. Would you rather have a +5 vorpal sword or a +10 to all skills?

ericgrau
2009-07-21, 10:03 AM
Trick question. Anyone wielding a vorpal sword doesn't care about skills. Those who care about skills will only find a vorpal sword semi-handy. We must price it according to what the item will do in the hands of the character who chooses it and can use it, not the average character who may or may not care for it. Like I said giving a +10 to some skills is open to serious abuse.

Person_Man
2009-07-21, 10:08 AM
Consider that Iaijutsu Focus can be used to give a +9d6 to damage, that Autohypnosis can be used in place of many Fort Saves, that Intimidate can be used with Imperious Command to make enemies Cower, that Knowledge Devotion can give you a +5 to hit and damage, that Tome of Battle manuevers are often keyed to Skill checks, etc. I would never allow it as a magic item.

I might allow a 20th-ish level capstone ability that allowed you to gain a +10 insight bonus to any one Skill for one round as a Swift Action. (Maybe for the Bard or some other Skill Monkey). Thus you could boost any one Skill by +10 when you wanted to, but you couldn't combine it with other insightbonuses (many magic items and spells), and you'd have to pay for it by going strait Bard for all of your career.

Swordguy
2009-07-21, 10:13 AM
You guys are pricing it way too high. Compare it to other items instead. Would you rather have a +5 vorpal sword or a +10 to all skills?


Hmm...a +10 to a Profession check to earn money with an infinite number of Professions? I'll take the +10 to all skills item, and buy the Vorpral Sword with an infinite number of Profession check results in a week.

RAWtard justification:
Like Craft, Knowledge, and Perform, Profession is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Profession skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. While a Craft skill represents ability in creating or making an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge.

Check

You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the professionís daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems.

Action

Not applicable. A single check generally represents a week of work.

Try Again

Varies. An attempt to use a Profession skill to earn an income cannot be retried. You are stuck with whatever weekly wage your check result brought you. Another check may be made after a week to determine a new income for the next period of time. An attempt to accomplish some specific task can usually be retried.

Untrained

Untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.

Nothing says you can't make multiple Profession checks in a week for differing Professions. Just that you can't really try again with any given Profession until the next week of work. Stupid, I know - but we're talking about somebody wanting to buy an artefact-level item here.

BigPapaSmurf
2009-07-21, 10:13 AM
I would make it free, It would have a 10' radius effect and it would weigh 30 tons and be the size of a building.

RS14
2009-07-21, 10:26 AM
Hmm...a +10 to a Profession check to earn money with an infinite number of Professions? I'll take the +10 to all skills item, and buy the Vorpral Sword with an infinite number of Profession check results in a week.

Doesn't work; Profession is trained only. You're looking for the feat "Jack of All Trades." It still doesn't work because "Profession is actually a number of separate skills," i.e. a finite, integer number of skills.

Edit: I should note that the number of profession skills is still nevertheless unbounded, and for all practical purposes is sufficient. Just not infinite.

Riffington
2009-07-21, 11:05 AM
I would make it free, It would have a 10' radius effect and it would weigh 30 tons and be the size of a building.

My new foundry, you say?


Nothing says you can't make multiple Profession checks in a week for differing Professions.

What does dedicated mean?

Thurbane
2009-07-21, 10:03 PM
You guys are pricing it way too high. Compare it to other items instead. Would you rather have a +5 vorpal sword or a +10 to all skills?
Depends entirely on the character - for a melee type, the sword if preferrable, but for a skill monkey, +10 to all skills is infinitely better.

ChrisDemilich
2009-07-22, 02:42 AM
Or, you could just focus on an item that boosts the skills you need. It'd be cheaper, and you could put a better enhancement. After all, nobody NEEDS every skill.

For example, the Hammer of Dwarven Smith-lords. +20 to both Armor Smithing and Weapon smithing checks for 80000 gold.

The boots of the Master Thief. +20 Hide and Move Silent. +10 Escape artist and pick lock. +5 Bluff and Sense Motive. 105000 gold.

Lenses of Unerring Sight. True Strike ALWAYS ON, +10 Spot, +10 Search. 92000 gold. Caster level 12th.

Etc etc etc. You can go nuts on this stuff, and customize exactly what you need, instead of wasting all the extra.

What exactly is your NPC, and what does he need the most? We'll customize you something awesome.