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Random832
2009-07-21, 01:34 PM
I'm a Rogue, and one of the other characters is a Barbarian with Spring Attack. Can I delay/ready an action to attack an opponent "during" his attack (i.e. after he moves forward to attack the opponent and before he moves back), and thus count as flanking for a sneak attack?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-21, 01:45 PM
I'm a Rogue, and one of the other characters is a Barbarian with Spring Attack. Can I delay/ready an action to attack an opponent "during" his attack (i.e. after he moves forward to attack the opponent and before he moves back), and thus count as flanking for a sneak attack?

You can definitely ready an action to attack when he's on the opposite side. Whether it's enough for sneak attack is unclear, but highly probable--I would personally allow it, since it obviously obeys the definition of flanking, but your DM might not like it for whatever reason.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-21, 02:07 PM
I'd say that sounds fine as well (it makes sense from an IC perspective to do that in combat).

The White Knight
2009-07-21, 02:14 PM
Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another characterís activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you donít otherwise move any distance during the round.

Make the condition "when my barbarian buddy attacks the bad guy" -- your attack will take place before this happens (ie, when the barbarian is standing next to your opponent, thereby providing flanking bonuses), and the barbarian then gets to go about his actions as usual once you're done. Only catch is that you'll only get to employ one sneak attack (barring funky business) per round, since you can ready, at most, a standard action.

Person_Man
2009-07-21, 03:35 PM
Yes you can.

However, both the Barbarian and you are screwing yourselves.

Spring Attack limits him to 1 attack. If he spent Dodge and Mobility on other feats, he could easily get more attacks and/or damage and/or battlefield control.

A Standard Action (the type of action you can ready) limits you to one attack.

Even at first level, it's pretty easy for either of you to get 2+ attacks via TWF and/or natural weapons and/or Whirling Frenzy and/or other feats.

Forbiddenwar
2009-07-21, 03:56 PM
Yes you can.

However, both the Barbarian and you are screwing yourselves.

Spring Attack limits him to 1 attack. If he spent Dodge and Mobility on other feats, he could easily get more attacks and/or damage and/or battlefield control.

A Standard Action (the type of action you can ready) limits you to one attack.

Even at first level, it's pretty easy for either of you to get 2+ attacks via TWF and/or natural weapons and/or Whirling Frenzy and/or other feats.

What better, 2 attacks with low probability of success or 1 attack with a higher probabilty of success?

This stategy sounds good, particularly for double teaming someone with high AC.

Random NPC
2009-07-21, 04:03 PM
What better, 2 attacks with low probability of success or 1 attack with a higher probabilty of success?

This stategy sounds good, particularly for double teaming someone with high AC.

How about C, 2 attacks with high probability of success.

BRC
2009-07-21, 04:05 PM
Yes you can.

However, both the Barbarian and you are screwing yourselves.

Spring Attack limits him to 1 attack. If he spent Dodge and Mobility on other feats, he could easily get more attacks and/or damage and/or battlefield control.

A Standard Action (the type of action you can ready) limits you to one attack.

Even at first level, it's pretty easy for either of you to get 2+ attacks via TWF and/or natural weapons and/or Whirling Frenzy and/or other feats.
Isn't it a sign of a great forum when a rules question is answered with "Your Build Sucks. You should do X instead. "

Random832
2009-07-21, 04:05 PM
A Standard Action (the type of action you can ready) limits you to one attack.

I actually only have one attack at this point anyway (Rog6)

So you think I'd have to ready; this wouldn't work with Delay?

tyckspoon
2009-07-21, 04:28 PM
Yes you can.

However, both the Barbarian and you are screwing yourselves.

Spring Attack limits him to 1 attack. If he spent Dodge and Mobility on other feats, he could easily get more attacks and/or damage and/or battlefield control.

A Standard Action (the type of action you can ready) limits you to one attack.

Even at first level, it's pretty easy for either of you to get 2+ attacks via TWF and/or natural weapons and/or Whirling Frenzy and/or other feats.

Don't forget what happens when the critter takes its turn. If you don't manage to kill it with your two standard attacks + 1 application of Sneak Attack bonus, guess who gets to be the target of opportunity? Well, it's not the Barbarian with high Con and a nice chunky d12 HD. The rogue had better like learning about new weapons and natural attacks- this strategy is going to introduce him to a lot of them.

Forbiddenwar
2009-07-21, 04:45 PM
I actually only have one attack at this point anyway (Rog6)

So you think I'd have to ready; this wouldn't work with Delay?

Delay would not work because to delay your turn in combat is to use that turn after or before anothers turn. Not during another's turn, like your describing:


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#delay
You canít, however, interrupt anyone elseís action (as you can with a readied action).

On the note of the counter attack, you have to consider the target. Some targets hit hard and some do not.

Thurbane
2009-07-21, 10:21 PM
Isn't it a sign of a great forum when a rules question is answered with "Your Build Sucks. You should do X instead. "
Pretty standard on all gaming forums, from what I've seen.

Just for kicks, create any thread with the word "monk" in the title and wait to see how long it is before the words "suckage" and "unarmed swordsage" appear! :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon
2009-07-21, 10:36 PM
It may be worthwhile with some extra goodies. I like Snap Kick for an extra unarmed attack with any melee attack; that gives 2 attacks in every Spring Attack, with only a -2 penalty to both. Much better than Bounding Assault.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-21, 10:47 PM
Isn't it a sign of a great forum when a rules question is answered with "Your Build Sucks. You should do X instead. "

That wasn't the tone I read the from the post.

Really, if you met someone asking "Where can I buy a hammer, I really wanna smash my toes with them!". They're saying with sincerity, clearly unaware that doing so might actually be bad for their toes.

It's perfectly fine to go
"Hold on sir. That may not be quite as wise or fun as you think it is. Smashing with your toes with a hammer might prove to be painful. Perhaps you'd be better served getting shoes for your feet and using the hammer to drive in nails"

At that point they can answer:

"Oh! Thanks. I wasn't aware, I'll keep it in mind"

"Oh, I know. I'm okay with it. Smashed toes are kinda of my thing. I know it may be strange for you, but... hey different strokes for different folks right?"

"Ah. That is troublesome. But.. I think I'll try it anyway, just to see how it goes. Thanks for the concern anyway"

In any case, it's better than if you said nothing. Theres certainly no harm in bringing it up. Maybe it'll help them, maybe it won't. So long as you aren't being snooty about it, what reason is there for anyone to be upset?

VirOath
2009-07-22, 12:19 AM
And the points raised may bring the parties in question to look into how to get extra attacks without changing their tactics too much, if they are playing it this way because it is fun for them.

Remember that effectiveness isn't the end factor of a build, it's fun playing.

That said, Opportunist Class feature with a readied action and Snap Kick will allow for four hits on the Barbs spring attack (Snap Kick gives a free attack with an unarmed strike for every attack you do, IIRC, Opportunist gives an AoO on an opponent you threaten that is struck by a friend, four attacks at your highest AB-2). Since this situation should provide flanking.

Kommisar Engel
2009-07-22, 04:44 AM
The answer to the thread question.

Deadeye Shot Feat (PHB2 p78)
Prerequisites: BAB+4, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Skirmish or Sneak Attack class ability
Benefits: How to use this feat
1) Ready an action to make a ranged attack on an opponent when any of your allies hit in melee
2)If the action is triggered, the opponent looses it's Dex bonus to AC against your attack only

Curmudgeon
2009-07-22, 08:37 AM
Remember that effectiveness isn't the end factor of a build, it's fun playing.

That said, Opportunist Class feature with a readied action and Snap Kick will allow for four hits on the Barbs spring attack (Snap Kick gives a free attack with an unarmed strike for every attack you do, IIRC, Opportunist gives an AoO on an opponent you threaten that is struck by a friend, four attacks at your highest AB-2). This is a nifty use of Opportunist. Nice!

Of course, all of this is predicated on the Rogue already being in melee attack position (or within 5' of it, since you can include a 5' step with a readied action). So if the opponent survives, the Rogue gets a full attack while the Barbarian is safely out of harm's way.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-22, 11:34 AM
Maybe with Staggering strike you can overcome this (even if, of course, your damage lowers).