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littlequietguy
2009-07-21, 01:56 PM
True Neutral?
Or chaotic Neutral?
Maybe Lawful Neutral because he follows that rule so well?

bosssmiley
2009-07-21, 02:00 PM
Neutral Evil. He follows a twisted and malign philosophy that sees other people as no more than pawns in his game of chance. Oh, and he's known to cheat (see "The Dark Knight Returns").

The fact he is insane does not make his actions any less capital 'E' evil.

Dienekes
2009-07-21, 02:07 PM
Like just about all comic book characters depends entirely upon the era.

I would argue his earlier portrayals were True Neutral, with his stealing and giving to poor and whatnot. But since then he's swung from Lawful Evil, to Neutral Evil, to Chaotic Evil.

My personal favorite rendition would probably be Neutral Evil.

Eddums
2009-07-21, 02:19 PM
In The Dark Knight, I'd go for Neutral Evil. He does have a personal set of rules, which he follows, but he cares nothing for the rules of society as a whole.

Blackjackg
2009-07-21, 02:22 PM
Neutral Evil sounds about right. He has a code, but he frequently diverts from it.

Zencao
2009-07-21, 04:53 PM
Shouldn't he have two alignments? :smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2009-07-21, 05:18 PM
Neutral Evil, with definite leanings toward Chaotic. He has done good occasionally, but he decides to do so over a coin flip. Which even scientists agree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory) is chaotic.

Serpentine
2009-07-21, 10:59 PM
Doesn't he, at least in some cases, basically have a split personality? If so, in those cases I think he'd have two alignments.

kpenguin
2009-07-21, 11:25 PM
Yeah, like the Two-Face in BTAS. I'd say Harvey is LG, Big Bad Harv is NE or CE, and the Judge is LE.

Lord Seth
2009-07-22, 02:00 AM
I'd classify him under either Chaos Neutral or Chaotic Evil.

Mordar
2009-07-22, 03:58 PM
How can he be anything other than Lawful-Chaotic-Neutral-Good-Evil-ish?
:smalltongue:

- M

PS: Following the dictates of the coin flip doen't mean he's lawful, I don't think. In fact, I'd say that he's strongly Chaotic from the perspective of his disregard for the regimen of society. You know what, never mind. Just flip a coin.

Erts
2009-07-22, 04:08 PM
What era is important.

In the very beginning, he was a STRONGLY Lawful character. So lawful, he broke the law to kill Falcone, as it became impossible to do it within the law. He was very "Eye for an Eye." Maybe a little bit of evil, but no selfishness at all.

Later, he became very Chaotic, with evil tendencies.

Ogdod
2009-07-22, 04:24 PM
The modern Two-Face is most likely a Chaotic Neutral character. He flips a coin in the replace of "lawful justice" with his endeavors, making him Chaotic, but also doesn't exactly have a moral discretion on who he kills/shoots/robs/attacks or when he commits any crime, making him Neutral.

I would say he's leaning twoards Evil, though, since he often manipulates pure probability and outcomes with his own selfish needs. "Heads you die; Tails you die harder". He also works with other Evil character sometimes.

hamishspence
2009-07-22, 04:26 PM
Doesn't have a moral distinction on who they commit crimes against- Evil.

Has a moral distinction- sometimes Neutral, depending on how serious the crimes are.

Devils_Advocate
2009-07-23, 12:52 AM
Flipping a coin to decide whether you kill someone or don't kill him is deciding between Evil and Neutral (unless the guy really has it coming), not between Evil and Good. Murdering people half as often as you otherwise might have may make you only half as Evil as you otherwise might have been, but that's probably still pretty Evil.

I only really saw Two-face a few times on the animated series, where all of his choices seemed to be of the Evil-or-Neutral variety. Any incarnation of him that functions that way is Evil. Others may not be.

Flipping a coin to make all of one's important choices could be considered Lawful because it's a consistent method, Chaotic because it's deliberately random, or Neutral because it's both. Alternately, it could be considered Lawful because it's a code of conduct of sorts, Chaotic because it's an individual method that has nothing to do with authority or tradition, or Neutral because it's both.

Really, though, it's off the Law/Chaos axis entirely. Going by the PHB, Law is rule-abiding, Neutral is pragmatic, and Chaos is impulsive (basically). That's pretty much a false trichotomy. Having a strong personal code of ethics or rigidly adhered to personal method of decision making isn't really covered.

If you boil Chaos down to the thing that actually makes it incompatible with Law, it's about resisting being controlled. Assuming that we're talking about control by other people and not necessarily by a binary random number generator, I'm guessing that Two-face is fairly Chaotic.

Haarkla
2009-07-23, 06:56 AM
LE

Definitely evil. Killing innocent people on the flip of a coin is a strongly evil act.

Probably lawful. He follows a definite code, however bizaar it appears to the rest of society.

I am most familiar with the Batman Forever interpretation.

Revlid
2009-07-24, 02:46 PM
I am most familiar with the Batman Forever interpretation.
GET THEE OUT IN SANCTUS

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/SELFMADECHAOTICNEUTRALBATMAN.jpg

Erts
2009-07-24, 02:48 PM
GET THEE OUT IN SANCTUS

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/SELFMADECHAOTICNEUTRALBATMAN.jpg

Two Face in the Dark Knight is like he is in the Long Halloween.

He kills mobsters and corrupted cops in that movie! Fairly lawful.

Ra_Va
2009-07-24, 02:55 PM
Doesn't he keep flipping the coin? I remember something I watched he was angry because it kept being tails or something. Then he became ecstatically happy when it was heads. If he keeps flipping the coin wouldn't that effect the alignment.

Erts
2009-07-24, 02:56 PM
Doesn't he keep flipping the coin? I remember something I watched he was angry because it kept being tails or something. Then he became ecstatically happy when it was heads. If he keeps flipping the coin wouldn't that effect the alignment.

Yeah, sometimes he manipulates the coin.

Revlid
2009-07-24, 03:09 PM
Yeah, sometimes he manipulates the coin.

In Batman Forever, or incredibly badly written comic-appearances, maybe.

Proper Two-Face interpretation is:
Good Heads = The Right Thing, Bad Heads = The Wrong Thing

Which is Chaotic Neutral to the core, because he'll be acting Chaotic Good half of the time and Chaotic Evil the other half.

Telonius
2009-07-24, 03:10 PM
I'll add to the chorus - it really, really depends on the version.

For the consolidated, amalgamated average of all things Two-Face...

He doesn't believe in law or justice - that's one of the key things that distinguishes him from Harvey Dent. So, not lawful, even if he diligently follows his own personal code. He believes in chance, basing major decisions on something as arbitrary as a coin flip. Pretty clearly chaotic, to my mind.

He doesn't care a bit about other people, so not good. But, he doesn't particularly go out of his way to harm people. So not evil, either. If he follows his coin-flip, over time his actions will come to a balance. So, neutral on the good-evil axis.

My verdict: Chaotic Neutral.

hamishspence
2009-07-24, 03:12 PM
Sparing a person's life is not the same as "doing good" it's simply "choosing not to do evil"

If with every Good Heads he went out and saved lives, donated to charity, etc, might be a bit different, but as far as I can tell is closer to

Good Heads "Doesn't do the evil act he's thinking about"
Bad Heads "Does the evil act he's thinking about."

And given that Bad heads will come up half the time, he's "consistantly doing evil" and "hardly ever doing real Good" - he's Evil.

Erts
2009-07-24, 03:22 PM
In Batman Forever, or incredibly badly written comic-appearances, maybe.

Proper Two-Face interpretation is:
Good Heads = The Right Thing, Bad Heads = The Wrong Thing

Which is Chaotic Neutral to the core, because he'll be acting Chaotic Good half of the time and Chaotic Evil the other half.

Ummmm... No.
Big spoilers for those who haven't read the Long Halloween or Dark Victory. Originally, he doesn't use the coin for much at all. He just kills Falcone, and runs away. Then, in the next book, he organizes all of the villains for the first time ever (in canon, this just after the beginning of Batman, about 2 years after Batman started.) At the end of it, after being shot off a cliff by the Joker, the Joker remarks something along the lines of "You know Bat's, while Harvey pretended to have changed, he was the same DA under it all. He just wanted to get rid of the mob. He didn't understand Gotham like you and me," - cue getting his jaw broken by Robin in Robin's debut.

Only after that does he become even more crazy, becoming a complete flipist. And its not CN to leave things up to chance, its CN to do whatever you want, no matter what a coin says.

And in Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth; he holds up Batman, flips the coin to decides, and lets him go. Later, we find out he ignored the coins result which told him to kill Batman. Of course, the author said this was because of April Fool's...

And he always manipulates it, no matter what version. As someone said "Heads, I kill you, tails, I kill you harder." Same thing applied to banks and robbery and all kinds of stuff.

Rutskarn
2009-07-24, 03:30 PM
I'm gonna go with Neutral Evil if we're talking Dark Knight.

He just doesn't care anymore. Not about life, not about honor, not about pride or compassion. He threatens to murder a goddamn kid. He wagers the kid's life on a coin toss. No matter how you look at it, that's just evil.

Erts
2009-07-24, 03:32 PM
I'm gonna go with Neutral Evil if we're talking Dark Knight.

He just doesn't care anymore. Not about life, not about honor, not about pride or compassion. He threatens to murder a goddamn kid. He wagers the kid's life on a coin toss. No matter how you look at it, that's just evil.

I'd go with Lawful Evil in the Dark Knight. He wanted to get revenge on the corrupted cops, the mob, and then Batman and Gordon. Fairly Lawful, a sense of justice.

EDIT: In fact, I don't see how one could argue Chaotic Neutral in the Dark Knight with the argument "Half Good, Half Evil= CN."

Think about it. If he had not killed the kid, then he wouldn't have given the kid a puppy or chocolates. He just would have not killed him. Same thing with Maroni. He didn't kill him, he killed the driver.

kpenguin
2009-07-24, 06:50 PM
His "All that matters is Chance" philosophy is rather chaotic. At the end of the film, he rejects justice for chance, if I recall.

RandomNPC
2009-07-24, 08:00 PM
the story tells say he's the bad guy. Evil
the story tellers (the good ones) say he always follows the coin, nomatter how badly he wants something, the coin gets final say. Lawful.

the story tellers say LE. I say this is one of those things that don't fall on the alignment chart without having five different spots. Yar.

kpenguin
2009-07-24, 08:29 PM
I think the conflict here is that on the one hand, we've got Two-Face holding up very strictly to a code, the coin flip. However, the coin flip is, one would hope, perfectly random and thus highly chaotic. The DKR Two-Face himself admits to regressing into a philosophy of chance.

Rutskarn
2009-07-24, 08:41 PM
I think the conflict here is that on the one hand, we've got Two-Face holding up very strictly to a code, the coin flip. However, the coin flip is, one would hope, perfectly random and thus highly chaotic. The DKR Two-Face himself admits to regressing into a philosophy of chance.

I dunno--Two Face strikes me as a guy who just doesn't care anymore. It's not that he's ideologically dedicated to chaos, it's just that he wants to make a point about it.

Erts
2009-07-24, 10:12 PM
Am I the only person to have read the Long Halloween and Dark Victory? You know, the really famous novel about the origins of Two Face? The one the Dark Knight draws more from than any other comic book?

He goes after mobsters. A bit like Rorschach. He then turns himself in after killing someone. Thats fairly lawful.

Also, remember, its not "kill you or give you my money," its "kill you, or torture you."

While the coin is random, its not always the same "choice" of outcome. Its not always "help or hurt."

kpenguin
2009-07-24, 10:14 PM
Long Halloween and Dark Victory are Two-Face at the beginning of Two-Face... before he went insane and not representative of the Two-Face you regularly see.

Erts
2009-07-24, 10:16 PM
Long Halloween and Dark Victory are Two-Face at the beginning of Two-Face... before he went insane and not representative of the Two-Face you regularly see.

Yes, but he acts the same as he does in the Dark Knight. More of a twisted revenge obsessed vigilante, but clearly, he has a plan. Therefore, pretty lawful.

And sometimes, he manipulates it.

kpenguin
2009-07-24, 10:17 PM
But Long Halloween & Dark Victory doesn't go on and on about how chance is the only thing that matters in this world and isn't thrown off his rocker by Mr. Chaos himself.

Erts
2009-07-24, 10:20 PM
But Long Halloween & Dark Victory doesn't go on and on about how chance is the only thing that matters in this world and isn't thrown off his rocker by Mr. Chaos himself.

Two Face is deluding himself about chance. Its not chance whether he killed Maroni, it was 75 to 25, and I'm sure he would have done something else if the coin said the driver survived.

True chance would be flipping the coin about everything.

Like if random guys who he meets live or die. Not just people he has a grudge against.

BlueWizard
2009-07-24, 10:47 PM
CN without a doubt.