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seventhearl
2009-07-22, 04:40 AM
Well the title just about sums up what this thread is about. I'd like to know peoples opinions on whether it is a good game or not and if I should buy into it.

Also I'd like to know what edition is best or at least the merits of each.

Swordguy
2009-07-22, 05:04 AM
A LOT of the SR bug going around lately. :smallbiggrin:

Anywho, Shadowrun is awesome. It's "Blade Runner" meets D&D meets Judge Dredd meets Neuromancer meets Ghost in the Shell.


There's been 4 editions so far:

1e - the original, from 1989. Literally oozes style, but the ruleset leaves a LOT to be desired. Not intuitive at all, and the skill web has been known to cause cancer in the state of California.

2e - Significantly more cleaned-up and workable, this is the version most people seemed to have started with. For this edition (and 1e), the aim of the game is to start fairly low-powered and grow your way into becoming badass. Don't get me wrong, you're more than a street punk with a gun, but not by a lot. Both this and 1e are very dark in tone, taking heavily from Blade Runner and William Gibson works. The world of the near future is dark and depressing (not GRIMDARK, but close). Megacorps rule everything, and you're either on the top or in the gutter. Unless you're magically active, you need cyberware to stay alive running the shadows...but cyber is actively harmful to your "soul". You literally get a little less human with each new bit of cyber.

3e - Shadowrun in it's most "mature" form as a set of game rules, this is the ideas behind 1e taken and completely polished to really work. There's still a lot of flaws that are inseparable from how the game really works (astral combat and decking just kill the flow of the game). The world is a little less dark, and the setting is such that its far easier to play a much "lighter" style game, or to make your runners MUCH more high-powered out of the gate, or both. This is where we first really start seeing the impact of anime on the genre. During this edition, the game move from standalone modules to some overarching metaplot, which put some people off, but there's support for all sorts of play with this edition. The book Dunklezahn's Will, for example, is something like 120 pages of nothing but adventure hooks. This edition is, of the first 3, be far the most clean-running, understandable, and balanced (insofar as Shadowrun is balanced at all). It's also got the best editing and writing of any edition yet published. Finally, it's got the benefit of being cheap to get into; although nothing is being published for it anymore, the books are extremely easy to get ahold of and inexpensive.

4e - an entirely new take on Shadowrun from Catalyst Game Labs, SR4 ditches a great deal of the dark and depressing atmosphere in favor of a heavily-anime-influenced game world. The mechanics are good and actually are a little easier to grasp than SR3 (a dice pool system similar to White Wolf stuff), though they have some weird quirks of their own. The game fixes a lot of the issues that 3e had - the Wireless Matrix, for example, makes decking something that the decker can do without excluding the rest of the group from the game table for a hour. It's a continuation of the same game "universe", in that 3e ended in 2064ish, and 4e picks up in 2070. Technically, 4e isn't actually "cyberpunk" - it's "post-cyberpunk"; cyberware isn't really inherently harmful to one's humanity anymore, though there's still some limits to how much you can do and stay alive. A strike, in my opinion, against it is the point-based character creation system. In my experience, point-buy systems encourage rampant min-maxing by players, whereas the 3e Priority system was generalized enough that it didn't minmax quite so easily. It has the advantage of being currently supported, but there's a new edition (the 20th anniversary edition - 4.1, really) that's supposedly coming out at GenCon. Overall, it's a worthy successor to 3e, the real question is whether you like the new flavor or not.


I can honestly recommend either 3e or 4e Shadowrun. Both have strengths and weaknesses. I prefer the flavor of the earlier game, so I run 3e...but I compulsively import the 4e Wireless Matrix into my 3e games. Either is a solid pickup.

comicshorse
2009-07-22, 10:59 AM
Er.... What he said:smallsmile:

kjones
2009-07-22, 12:33 PM
I recently picked up Shadowrun 4e, and am running it soon for some friends. As someone who's completely new to the system, here's my take on it. (Keep in mind that this is someone whose gaming experience comes mostly from d20 systems. I've played non-d20 RPGs - Rifts, Aces & Eights, Hackmaster, AD&D 1e and 2e - but I've spent much more time with d20.)


I don't have any reference with regards to previous edition settings, but the 4e setting is pretty cool. High-tech, lowlives. Megacorps everywhere, the rich and powerful sequestered away into arcologies, and someone's watching your every step (unless you're careful)... It reminds me most of Stephenson's Snow Crash.
I dig the magic system - astral projection is really neat, and the ability to adjust the power level of your spells (even to the point where it results in physical injury.)
The [Skill] + [Ability] mechanic is really nice - it gives the system a lot of flexibility. It's like how in d20, if you had to climb in a zero-g environment, you might use Dex instead of Strength for Climb? The system makes that sort of thing really easy to do.
The rulebook is not terribly well organized. Rules for some things are spread out all over the place. (I'm specifically thinking of Rigging here, but there are other examples.) Skills only get a brief blurb describing how they work in the listing - actual usage is spread out across the book. Some things aren't very well elaborated at all. (Ok, those are the stats for the drones... but what are they?) I don't mind fleshing out details on my own, but...
I can't say as to whether or not 4e is simpler than 3e, but the rules are still pretty complex in their own right, at least to someone who hasn't seen them before. A lot of skills and actions have extensive lists of situational modifiers, and I guarantee that you'll need to go paging through to find them. (In fairness, the book says that you're better off winging it than looking it up in most cases.) I'm sure that hacking is simpler now than it once was, but it's still pretty complicated. It will probably take you some time to get comfortable with the rules, and character creation is not simple or quick. (Though the book includes some decent pregens, if you need characters fast.)
Point-buy encourages min/maxing, no two ways about it. However, the system expects you as a GM to take an active hand in character building and beat your players about the head if they try to pull anything silly. (Our rigger wanted to take Incompetent (Archery). I made sure he saw Reason*.)
I might recommend looking at some pre-made missions to start out, if you're the one running. In Shadowrun missions, the devil is in the details, and if you're just starting out, it will be hard to know what to do if the players go "off the rails".


Swordguy: Not sure where you're getting the "anime influence" from - I just don't see it.

But as far as I'm concerned, any interest in non-D&D systems is a good thing. I know GiantITP is a heavily D&D focused board, but I feel like a lot of people don't even recognize the fact that it's not the be-all and end-all of RPGs.

*Reason is the name of my baseball bat.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, there's some annoying typos in the book as well. Maybe they fixed them in the reprinting/errata, but we spent a few minutes trying to figure out why the elephant gun was under "machine pistols".

NPCMook
2009-07-22, 01:02 PM
I wish the Shadowrun bug would migrate down into my area

Swordguy
2009-07-22, 01:29 PM
Swordguy: Not sure where you're getting the "anime influence" from - I just don't see it.


The designers. They've explicitly said they were moving away from dystopian, Gibson-esque cyberpunk and took as their new primary influence the anime series Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex.

Really - 4e is significantly different in flavor to the earlier editions. It can always be run as an older style, but that's not where the system "wants" to be, if you catch my drift. There's no one thing you point to and say "that's anime". It's the feel of the entire work.

Fixer
2009-07-22, 01:34 PM
I ran, and played, many a Shadowrun game from 2nd and 3rd editions. A friend of mine got me a PDF of Shadowrun 4th ed to see if I liked it and just trying to build a character seemed a major hassle. Normally I enjoy building characters more than playing them, but this was a bit too difficult to understand. It might be easier if I had a hardback book to flip through, but I just wasn't that interested. I got rid of the PDF as I realized I wasn't going to play it. It didn't offer that much more than my 3rd edition books had and I have an entire collection of those.

Maybe the other rules were easier to understand, but it wasn't my cup of tea.

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-22, 03:08 PM
If you ask me, the setting, chargen, and overall feel of the game were better in 3rd ed. But the rules and play were smoother in 4th.

To me the only major problems with 3rd ed were the Matrix and Astral Combat, but those are two things you can circumvent to some extent. However, I hate the wireless Matrix. I understand that it's the progression of the setting and that it makes some kind of sense but I just can't stand it. Something about it just gets under my skin.

Given the choice, I'd go with 3rd ed, but 4th is not without its good points.

kjones
2009-07-22, 04:52 PM
The designers. They've explicitly said they were moving away from dystopian, Gibson-esque cyberpunk and took as their new primary influence the anime series Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex.

Really - 4e is significantly different in flavor to the earlier editions. It can always be run as an older style, but that's not where the system "wants" to be, if you catch my drift. There's no one thing you point to and say "that's anime". It's the feel of the entire work.

I've only watched a little SAC, but I guess I can understand this. Like I said, though, the thing it reminds me most of is Snow Crash - does anyone else feel this way? Depending on who you ask, Snow Crash is technically post-cyberpunk, but...

Cristo Meyers: Sure, you can circumvent astral/matrix combat - but you shouldn't have to circumvent things that are major components of the game world. Which one is better, the 3e wired hacker that is relegated to an NPC role, or the 4e wireless hacker who actually gets to go on runs?

Fixer: Having a physical copy of the book during character generation makes a big difference IMHO, since you're constantly flipping back and forth. Even then, it's complicated, possibly needlessly so by poor organization (as I talked about before). I still enjoy it, but I'm the sort that enjoys being a BP weenie - YMMV.

I don't want to get into an edition war - I've never played 3e, and I've yet to actually play 4e. But as far as I'm concerned, the more people playing Shadowrun, of any stripe, the better.

(And we thought D&D edition wars are bad - at least in D&D, the mechanics of different editions aren't so closely tied to the settings of different editions!)

EDIT: I think I really need to pick up a copy of the 3e rulebook... dammit, there goes my food money for another week... :smallbiggrin:

EDIT EDIT: Swordguy, I didn't realize that you actually used the word "post-cyberpunk" to describe 4e. I guess that makes sense then - 4e does little to emphasize the dehumanizing aspects of cyberware, beyond simple Essence cost (and you only need Essence for cyberware!).

OverdrivePrime
2009-07-22, 05:15 PM
I used to play 2nd and 3rd edition (mostly 3rd) back in the day, and recently the gang and I have picked up 4th edition. My players *love* character creation in 4th edition. Even the veterans like my original game master from the 2nd & 3rd edition games thinks that character creation is much smoother and easier. None of us particularly appreciate the organization of the book, but once you figure out *how* to create a character, making more is a pleasure!

I like 4th edition's feel much better than 3rd, maybe because I can handle only so much GRIMDARK before I start to get the shakes. The post-cyberpunk feel is much more suited to our game group. It allows for plenty of dark alleys and all-powerful corps, while still giving the characters hope that somehow they can change things for the better. That tiny infusion of hope makes for a better game environment, in my opinion.

Thanks to the wireless matrix, we no longer have to operate on a "Deckers are Banned" rule, but the effects of AR/VR are still yet to be fully understood by my group. Maybe once we've gotten more than three games under our belt we'll no more, but we're having a ton of fun.

System-wise, I've never played with a better game system. The rules are simple to understand and have enough realism in them to keep me happy. I'd love to see this rule set ported to a pre-industrial setting.

seventhearl
2009-07-22, 05:47 PM
I have looked at the free demo aventure and quickstart rules on the shadowrun website and it does look interesting, just a few questions about the rules though

How much amo is there in a clip?
and
how do mages run out of magic casting power? (or do they not)

edit: also does the sample sameri get to go twice because he has two "initiative passes"?

OverdrivePrime
2009-07-22, 06:04 PM
how do mages run out of magic casting power? (or do they not)

Mages can cast spells call day if they don't go overboard on the power of their spells. Then again, you're not going to affect a cybered-up trog with a Force 2 Powerbolt, so it's a matter of effectiveness.

Casting spells causes magic users to resist drain, in much the same way that a character resist damage. Drain takes a toll on a character's stun damage chart (unless they go overboard, in which case the spell energies can physically start to tear them apart). Essentially, the more powerful spell you cast, the more exhausted you become and the less concentration you can put behind your spells. Eventually you've got nothing left an can actually knock yourself unconscious (or dead, if you overchannel) by casting too many spells too fast.

The nice thing is that stun damage recovers relatively quickly, so if you cast a couple powerful spells over breakfast, you'll be feeling shiny again by lunch.
This is one of my very favorite things about the Shadowrun systems.

comicshorse
2009-07-22, 06:12 PM
How much amo is there in a clip?

That depends on the weapon. A light pistols clip will hold less than an assault rifle.
The ammo the weapon has will be included on the weapon tables (P 308 in 4e) under the AMMO heading. The way the ammo is held is included in brackets by the ammo. 'c' for clip, 'm' for magazine, 'cy' for cylinder for revolvers


how do mages run out of magic casting power? (or do they not)


Every time a mage casts a spell it causes 'DRAIN'. This is the mental or physical damage channeling the power of the spell does to the mage. The more he casts the more he can be hurt, the more he's hurt the harder it gets to cast spells. Eventually he will pass out or be so loaded with wound penalties he can't go on. ( Which is why mage's should always pack a gun as back-up)
High enough level spells will do actual physical damage. In one game our mage actually killed herself casting a high level spell on a tank.


edit: also does the sample sameri get to go twice because he has two "initiative passes"?

Are you using 4E cause that Samurai has 3 passes. But yes every initiative pass is another go

Riffington
2009-07-22, 06:15 PM
I've never looked at 4th ed, so this is a very naive question, but:
How does a wireless matrix increase the chances of deckers going on runs? I mean, with a wired one, the decker sometimes needs to physically be in the secure zone in the building to bypass some killer ice, which means he needs to be on the run. If it's all wireless, wouldn't he just stay in Tahiti while you're in Seattle?

Also, how do the new matrix rules work? Can they be ported into 3E without taking all/nothing?

seventhearl
2009-07-22, 06:21 PM
This (http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/sr4/catalyst_shadowrunqs_player.pdf) is where i've learnt what i know about shadowrun 4e from.

Another question is what would I need to start playing it and how much would it cost?

comicshorse
2009-07-22, 06:37 PM
This is where i've learnt what i know about shadowrun 4e from.

That seems to have just enough information to really confuse you

Raum
2009-07-22, 07:20 PM
Another question is what would I need to start playing it and how much would it cost?Other than a group of friends, all you need is the main source book. Amazon's new price for 4th edition is running $25-$30.

Swordguy did a good job of breaking down the edition differences. The only thing to add is that 4th ed will be easier to get into (both purchasing and learning) if no one in your group has previous editions. If they do, look for whatever the majority of the group has. :)


I've never looked at 4th ed, so this is a very naive question, but:
How does a wireless matrix increase the chances of deckers going on runs? I mean, with a wired one, the decker sometimes needs to physically be in the secure zone in the building to bypass some killer ice, which means he needs to be on the run. If it's all wireless, wouldn't he just stay in Tahiti while you're in Seattle?Swordguy may need to correct me as most of my experience is with 2nd ed but 4th seems to have made the majority of electronics network accessible via a shortrange Bluetooth equivalent. The result - hackers can do more than simply network overwatch. If they're in range they can hack into your opponents' gear and screw with them. I haven't played 4th, so am not certain how well it plays.

OverdrivePrime
2009-07-22, 09:21 PM
I've never looked at 4th ed, so this is a very naive question, but:
How does a wireless matrix increase the chances of deckers going on runs? I mean, with a wired one, the decker sometimes needs to physically be in the secure zone in the building to bypass some killer ice, which means he needs to be on the run. If it's all wireless, wouldn't he just stay in Tahiti while you're in Seattle?

Also, how do the new matrix rules work? Can they be ported into 3E without taking all/nothing?

Well, the rules are a bit different, so it's not a straight port, but you can easily bring a lot of the concepts over to 3rd edition. When we played 2nd and 3rd edition we always had an NPC decker because it was a pain in the butt to have one of the PCs take care of the decking. Whenever the decker had to do any matrix work, the rest of the players were sitting around twiddling their thumbs for a half hour, and when the decker wasn't in the mix, she was bored as heck.

With the new wireless matrix rules and augmented reality, hacker characters will often find that they can get higher level access by getting into the building that houses the node that they're trying to work on. Any corp worth its rep isn't going to have all its paydata sitting around connected to the outside, so that any schmo in Tahiti can just sleaze in and rob them blind. Instead, the decker needs to get inside the actual corp offices or physical data warehouse location with his team, and then he can hack into the local intranet. Once he beats the internal security, then there's no end of mayhem he can cause or trouble he can get in.

kjones
2009-07-22, 10:01 PM
With the new wireless matrix rules and augmented reality, hacker characters will often find that they can get higher level access by getting into the building that houses the node that they're trying to work on. Any corp worth its rep isn't going to have all its paydata sitting around connected to the outside, so that any schmo in Tahiti can just sleaze in and rob them blind. Instead, the decker needs to get inside the actual corp offices or physical data warehouse location with his team, and then he can hack into the local intranet. Once he beats the internal security, then there's no end of mayhem he can cause or trouble he can get in.

This is basically the case - but how is this different from having the hacker sneak in during the run and connect with a wired connection, as someone mentioned before?

OverdrivePrime
2009-07-22, 11:04 PM
This is basically the case - but how is this different from having the hacker sneak in during the run and connect with a wired connection, as someone mentioned before?

Because now the rest of the players don't groan when someone brings in their hacker PC. In the previous editions a decker meant that half the time the decker was having fun and half the time the rest of the party was having fun. With agumented reality and the wireless matrix, everyone can have a good time together. It's more important as a player mechanic than as a game mechanic, I think.

BobVosh
2009-07-22, 11:25 PM
One thing I have always found goofy about 4ed SR: you typically have a car parked somewhere near with a group of (typically 2-3) unconcious bodies.
The Rigger is in a bot somewhere else, the hacker is network guarding and doing other various things, and the magic user is in the astral.

Just werid to me.

sombrastewart
2009-07-22, 11:29 PM
This is basically the case - but how is this different from having the hacker sneak in during the run and connect with a wired connection, as someone mentioned before?

It's possible to be hacked in and do other things.

kjones
2009-07-22, 11:33 PM
One thing I have always found goofy about 4ed SR: you typically have a car parked somewhere near with a group of (typically 2-3) unconcious bodies.
The Rigger is in a bot somewhere else, the hacker is network guarding and doing other various things, and the magic user is in the astral.

Just werid to me.

But you don't always have a hacker, a rigger, and a mage. In my group, the hacker and rigger are the same character, and there's no mage.

But when you put it that way - yeah, that is kind of funny.

BobVosh
2009-07-22, 11:45 PM
But you don't always have a hacker, a rigger, and a mage. In my group, the hacker and rigger are the same character, and there's no mage.

But when you put it that way - yeah, that is kind of funny.

Took doubling up on one character (a very easy thing to do in 4ed for the hacker/rigger) and skipping an entire combat style. We had 7 characters, so quite a few bodies.

I'm used to most parties having technoman(hacker/rigger combo) and a mage in a car, and the street samarai with a marker drawing mustaches.

Swordguy
2009-07-23, 02:29 AM
I've never looked at 4th ed, so this is a very naive question, but:
How does a wireless matrix increase the chances of deckers going on runs? I mean, with a wired one, the decker sometimes needs to physically be in the secure zone in the building to bypass some killer ice, which means he needs to be on the run. If it's all wireless, wouldn't he just stay in Tahiti while you're in Seattle?

Also, how do the new matrix rules work? Can they be ported into 3E without taking all/nothing?

Raum was pretty close - the Bluetooth analogy was excellent. Also, because practically everything is wireless now, the hacker can do more when he's actually ON the run; hacking into guns to make them misfire, hacking into cyberware to turn it off...that sort of thing. Thus, he becomes a a downright useful guy to have with you on the run, whereas before actually decking during a run was a Bad Idea.

The real issue is that the time now syncs up between the Matrix and the real world. In 1-3rd edition, both Astral and Matrix "time" was incredibly faster than 'real' time. I'd have to go back and check my books, but IIRC a "round" in the Matrix is less than a second - it's a "speed of thought" thing. Now with the VR "overlay" in the decker's vision field, it's explicitly slowed back down, so that the timing syncs up.

Finally, the reason hackers can go on runs is that they don't have to be unconscious to do their thing. Jacking into an old cyberdeck basically pulled your mind out of your body - it's useless for the duration. You're completely helpless while you're jacked-in. The Wireless Matrix no longer requires this, so you aren't a helpless meat puppet while you do your thing. You're still better off doing nothing but hacking (there's dice pool penalties for hacking and doing real-world stuff simultaneously), but you can still participate.

The resolution system for hacking is also much faster than decking. Let's see, going off memory, here's a sample decking run to "erase the team's activities from the local police (Lone Star's) databanks". This is something reasonably common.

1) Logon to Seattle LTG (requires an Opposed roll, Logon to LTG vs Access Rating)
2) Find the Lone Star PLTG (requires an Opposed roll, Locate File vs Index Rating)
3) Logon to Lone Star PLTG (requires an Opposed roll, Logon to LTG vs Access Rating)
4) Find a way past mandatory Lone Star Probe-10 Intruder Countermeasures (requires a least 1 Opposed roll)
5) Find the subhost that holds criminal records (requires an Opposed roll, Locate File vs Index Rating)
6) Logon to said subhost (requires an Opposed roll, Logon to Host vs Access Rating)
7) Scan for IC (requires an Opposed roll, Locate IC vs Index Rating)
7) Search for the record you want (requires an Opposed roll, Locate File vs Index Rating)
8) Delete the record you want (requires an Opposed roll, Edit File vs Files Rating)
9) Alter database so no record of the file was there (requires an Opposed roll, Edit File vs Control Rating)
9) Ensure you have no Trace-IC tracking you (requires an Opposed roll, Locate IC vs IC's Cloak Program Rating)
10) Jack out (requires an Opposed roll IF you've got IC on you)

And this is assuming that there's no Matrix Combat whatsoever. During each of those Opposed rolls within the Lone Star System, the GM keeps track of every success the system makes, even if the system fails to beat the decker. Each success raises the Security Tally (a pregenerated list of what happens as the system goes more and more on alert) by 1. As the tally goes up, more and more IC or security deckers stop by to see what's going on. Since the Lone Star System is rolling between 11 and 14 dice per opposed test (the TN being the decker's program ratings - usually between a 6 and 9), each opposed test is almost certain to generate successes. Which means cybercombat becomes almost a sure thing.


...and the whole time this is going on, the rest of the team is sitting with their thumbs up their butts, because this entire operation is going to take - perhaps - a minute or two of "real time". In real life, of course, you're looking at 15-25 minutes if there's no cybercombat at all and the run goes perfectly smooth, and potentially an hour or more, depending on the competence of the decker in question.

From a "representing the gameworld" PoV, and from a "cool flavor" PoV, this is awesome. From a "game flow" PoV, or the PoV of the rest of the party, this sucks horribly. Which is why, even in my 3e games, I've embraced the idea of the Wireless Matrix with such abandon.

BobVosh
2009-07-23, 04:00 AM
One thing I dislike about wireless is that it destroyed any reason to have an otaku. Deckers are much better and easier to do with the wireless.

Also someone on this forums posted how (with starting cash/basic points) you can easily replace both with anyone having a good enough bank roll.

potatocubed
2009-07-23, 04:01 AM
Just to reinforce what's already been said, 4th ed Shadowrun is very Ghost in the Shell. Which is fine by me - I'll go for GitS over cyberpunk any day.

Something I think is worth mentioning though is that with (4e) Shadowrun you really do have everything you need in the main book. The supplements consist of about 15% game material, and it's not even very useful game material, so think twice before buying.

Winterwind
2009-07-23, 04:43 AM
Only familiar with the 3rd edition, but can very highly recommend it (even if it is, by my standards at least, rather on the rules-heavy side).

I always thought fixing the Matrix problem was rather simple - all one has to do is to remove the rule that says time passes faster in the Matrix than in the real world. Voilà, the decker monitors the Matrix, turns off cameras etc. at the same speed as the other runners advance and can participate in the run and interact with his chummers actively.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-23, 04:47 AM
Shadowrun is a great game.
But unless your really going to go for the fantasy elements I have always found Cyberpunk to be a little better.

Fixer
2009-07-23, 06:48 AM
Did they move Bioware to the main book in SR4?

Swordguy
2009-07-23, 06:59 AM
Did they move Bioware to the main book in SR4?

They did indeed.

Fixer
2009-07-23, 07:07 AM
You have made me happy. :)

kjones
2009-07-23, 08:58 AM
Raum was pretty close - the Bluetooth analogy was excellent. Also, because practically everything is wireless now, the hacker can do more when he's actually ON the run; hacking into guns to make them misfire, hacking into cyberware to turn it off...that sort of thing. Thus, he becomes a a downright useful guy to have with you on the run, whereas before actually decking during a run was a Bad Idea.

The real issue is that the time now syncs up between the Matrix and the real world. In 1-3rd edition, both Astral and Matrix "time" was incredibly faster than 'real' time. I'd have to go back and check my books, but IIRC a "round" in the Matrix is less than a second - it's a "speed of thought" thing. Now with the VR "overlay" in the decker's vision field, it's explicitly slowed back down, so that the timing syncs up.

Finally, the reason hackers can go on runs is that they don't have to be unconscious to do their thing. Jacking into an old cyberdeck basically pulled your mind out of your body - it's useless for the duration. You're completely helpless while you're jacked-in. The Wireless Matrix no longer requires this, so you aren't a helpless meat puppet while you do your thing. You're still better off doing nothing but hacking (there's dice pool penalties for hacking and doing real-world stuff simultaneously), but you can still participate.

The resolution system for hacking is also much faster than decking. Let's see, going off memory, here's a sample decking run to "erase the team's activities from the local police (Lone Star's) databanks". This is something reasonably common.

1) Logon to Seattle LTG (requires an Opposed roll, Logon to LTG vs Access Rating)
2) Find the Lone Star PLTG (requires an Opposed roll, Locate File vs Index Rating)
3) Logon to Lone Star PLTG (requires an Opposed roll, Logon to LTG vs Access Rating)
4) Find a way past mandatory Lone Star Probe-10 Intruder Countermeasures (requires a least 1 Opposed roll)
5) Find the subhost that holds criminal records (requires an Opposed roll, Locate File vs Index Rating)
6) Logon to said subhost (requires an Opposed roll, Logon to Host vs Access Rating)
7) Scan for IC (requires an Opposed roll, Locate IC vs Index Rating)
7) Search for the record you want (requires an Opposed roll, Locate File vs Index Rating)
8) Delete the record you want (requires an Opposed roll, Edit File vs Files Rating)
9) Alter database so no record of the file was there (requires an Opposed roll, Edit File vs Control Rating)
9) Ensure you have no Trace-IC tracking you (requires an Opposed roll, Locate IC vs IC's Cloak Program Rating)
10) Jack out (requires an Opposed roll IF you've got IC on you)

And this is assuming that there's no Matrix Combat whatsoever. During each of those Opposed rolls within the Lone Star System, the GM keeps track of every success the system makes, even if the system fails to beat the decker. Each success raises the Security Tally (a pregenerated list of what happens as the system goes more and more on alert) by 1. As the tally goes up, more and more IC or security deckers stop by to see what's going on. Since the Lone Star System is rolling between 11 and 14 dice per opposed test (the TN being the decker's program ratings - usually between a 6 and 9), each opposed test is almost certain to generate successes. Which means cybercombat becomes almost a sure thing.


...and the whole time this is going on, the rest of the team is sitting with their thumbs up their butts, because this entire operation is going to take - perhaps - a minute or two of "real time". In real life, of course, you're looking at 15-25 minutes if there's no cybercombat at all and the run goes perfectly smooth, and potentially an hour or more, depending on the competence of the decker in question.

From a "representing the gameworld" PoV, and from a "cool flavor" PoV, this is awesome. From a "game flow" PoV, or the PoV of the rest of the party, this sucks horribly. Which is why, even in my 3e games, I've embraced the idea of the Wireless Matrix with such abandon.

I've gotta admit, that sounds pretty fracking awesome - in 4e, that sort of thing would be resolved in 4-5 rolls.

Have you ever tried making a party entirely of hackers, to resolve this problem? Do deckers not work well together?

Mark Hall
2009-07-23, 09:23 AM
With the decking/astral time thing, I always found it interesting how closely decking analogued to Astral space, especially when you consider otaku and the like.

Winterwind
2009-07-23, 09:43 AM
Have you ever tried making a party entirely of hackers, to resolve this problem? Do deckers not work well together?Haven't ever tried it, but judging by the rules alone, I imagine it should work rather fine.

Lost Demiurge
2009-07-23, 10:21 AM
I've said my peace in other threads, and the folks here have put most anything I could say together pretty well, so I'll summarize.

If you're just getting into Shadowrun, get 4th edition. MUCH simpler to run. Much simpler for the GM to improvise. And that whole "1 book gives you plenty" is no joke. I don't need any of the supplements to run a good game (Though they are nice, and offer plenty of options once you've got the basics down.)

Quick note, though. If you get into 4E and find that you like it, then see if you can pick up supplements for the earlier editions on the cheap. Old adventures, geography books, etc... You can ignore the rules or switch stuff over to the new rules pretty easily, and the fluff is usually a fun read - Really helps you get a handle on the setting.

Hell, the second real run that I did for my group was "Dreamchipper", and I barely needed to change much beyond the stat blocks for the baddies.

Fixer
2009-07-24, 06:54 AM
So, wait, if I take my old 3rd edition supplement books (I own nearly all of them) I can still use them for 4th edition with only a little tweaking?

This might actually be worth it, if so.

OverdrivePrime
2009-07-24, 06:59 AM
So, wait, if I take my old 3rd edition supplement books (I own nearly all of them) I can still use them for 4th edition with only a little tweaking?

This might actually be worth it, if so.

Yeah, you'll have to rebalance some of the stats out, and convert weapon damage a bit, but it's really not a bad stretch. Certainly all the old settings and stories work - it's up to you if you want to upgrade to the wireless matrix.

I always thought it was kinda funny that we in the real world got the equivalent of the wireless matrix about 60 years prior to the cyberpunk world. No neural interface yet, but people have been able to crack systems wirelessly and hop from node to node wirelessly for a few years. :smallwink:

Lost Demiurge
2009-07-24, 08:12 AM
So, wait, if I take my old 3rd edition supplement books (I own nearly all of them) I can still use them for 4th edition with only a little tweaking?

This might actually be worth it, if so.

Yep! It'll take some reworking on the rules end of things, but the fluff and basic premises are still good.

You WILL have to look at hacking setups in the old system, and probably redo them. My technique was to reduce them to a few rolls, and maybe flow in some flavorful ICE here and there... It worked pretty well.

TheCountAlucard
2009-07-24, 09:07 AM
One thing I dislike about wireless is that it destroyed any reason to have an otaku. Deckers are much better and easier to do with the wireless.Two words: no cap.

IIRC, there's no limit as to how high a technomancer can raise his resonance after he does his whole initiation thing, whereas eventually the hacker will reach a glass ceiling through which he cannot advance any further.

Admittedly, it's not entirely likely that the characters in question will ever reach the karma level to make this an issue.

...and if I'm wrong, do feel free to correct me on this.

kjones
2009-07-24, 10:07 AM
Two words: no cap.

IIRC, there's no limit as to how high a technomancer can raise his resonance after he does his whole initiation thing, whereas eventually the hacker will reach a glass ceiling through which he cannot advance any further.

Admittedly, it's not entirely likely that the characters in question will ever reach the karma level to make this an issue.

...and if I'm wrong, do feel free to correct me on this.

Yeah, "long-lived" and "decker" are not words that one usually sees in the same sentence.

Unrelatedly, I went and reread Gibson's short story "Burning Chrome" for inspiration last night. It brings tears to my eyes.

EDIT: To answer your actual question, there's an errata that set the fixed cap for any attribute, mods and all, to (IIRC) 10. Since a skill can only go up to 6, 7 with Aptitude, that's as high as a hacker can go.

I don't know if Resonance is limited, though.

And I have some general rules questions:

Can a sim mod be used for AR? That is, if you have a sim mod, do you also need an image-link, etc., for AR?

Aside from magic limitations and interference with healing spells, are there any negative consequences to low Essence in 4e? One of my players managed to whittle his Essence down to 0.1, and I'm itching to stick it to him. (Maybe kidnap him and force some cybernetic implants...?)

On the ammunition table, how much ammo does each entry refer to? (It seems expensive for 1 shot, and cheap for a clip, not that a "clip" is a fixed size...)

You can only have System x 2 programs running without penalties, and you can only have System x 2 connections at a time. Do these count towards the same cap?

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-24, 10:47 AM
On the ammunition table, how much ammo does each entry refer to? (It seems expensive for 1 shot, and cheap for a clip, not that a "clip" is a fixed size...)


This is about the only one I can remember off-hand. The ammo listing in the Equipment section are Nuyen per 10 shells. The clip is just that, an empty spare clip to hold the ammo.

comicshorse
2009-07-24, 11:06 AM
Aside from magic limitations and interference with healing spells, are there any negative consequences to low Essence in 4e? One of my players managed to whittle his Essence down to 0.1, and I'm itching to stick it to him. (Maybe kidnap him and force some cybernetic implants...?)
0

I'm not sure there were ever any official rules on this but it definitely came up in some of the fiction books. That is your Essence is the amount of 'spirit' you have. Highly cybered characters have effectively crippled their soul for power and magically active characters and beings can sense this. Cybered characters will seem tainted to magic users ( particularly Shaman I'd say). Spirits will hate them and be more likely to be hostile ( maybe even attack cybered characters first) . Perhaps even Paranatural creatures will find cybered characters offensive
I remember one run in Amazonia where our group ran into a local tribe. Their Shaman instantly loathed the Samurai and refused to talk to him only some smart talking by the group's Shaman and Physical Adept kept things friendly
Obviously the more cybered you are the more extreme the reaction. A point or two of Essence loss might be forgiven or unnoticed but get down to fractions of a point left and you are a walking abomination

Swordguy
2009-07-24, 11:40 AM
Aside from magic limitations and interference with healing spells, are there any negative consequences to low Essence in 4e? One of my players managed to whittle his Essence down to 0.1, and I'm itching to stick it to him. (Maybe kidnap him and force some cybernetic implants...?)



Not sure about 4e offhand. However, in 3e (without checking my book) you had the following penalties for low Essence:
1) You apply a +1 to all non-Intimidation social target modifiers for each 2 points of visible cyberware. So bioware doesn't count, and neither does non-visible cyber (skillsofts, for example). We're talking cyberlimbs here, or obvious cybereyes, or dermal plating.

2) Cyberware makes it difficult to heal you. For every point of Essence you're missing, or fraction thereof, attempts to heal you have a +1 penalty to the TN. This includes magical healing attempts. This is really, really serious - a LOT of people overlooked this.

3) When given a choice ("guard this area", "attack those people", etc), spirits and some paranormal critters will make you their first target.

4) Deliberately designing a character with low essence is dangerous. Whenever your suffer a Deadly wound, there's a chance you'll have a crippling injury, including the loss of a limb. Assuming that said limb isn't already a cyberlimb, getting a replacement limb will be necessity involve Essence loss (IIRC, a limb is about 1 point of Essence). Which means that somebody with a 0.1 Essence can't get a replacement limb, or it'll kill them.


Now, these are 3e, obviously. But I'd check these as leads in the 4e book to see if they've changed. It at least gives you a starting point.

potatocubed
2009-07-24, 11:56 AM
2) Cyberware makes it difficult to heal you. For every point of Essence you're missing, or fraction thereof, attempts to heal you have a +1 penalty to the TN. This includes magical healing attempts. This is really, really serious - a LOT of people overlooked this.

In 4e the penalty is -1 die per 2 lost points of Essence but I think this rounds normally, so an Essence of 0.1 means -3 dice on any kind of healing test - including natural healing from rest, as well as medicine, surgery, and magical healing.

kjones
2009-07-24, 06:36 PM
He managed to bring it down to 0.05. I didn't think you could even do that.

He'll pay for this.

Grommen
2009-07-24, 07:16 PM
He managed to bring it down to 0.05. I didn't think you could even do that.

He'll pay for this.

That's the spirit!

Two rules I live by when running Shadowrun.

#1 No good deed goes un-punished.
#2 The other side (were all bad guys in 2056) packs the same crap you do. Live by the Panther...Die by the Panther :smallcool:

Ya haveing that low of essence is just begging for some corp to "experiment" on. Their are worse things than death.

I hope that 4th ed keeps up the tradition that no one is invincible. I've always loved that every mage at some point or another has "geeked" himself with his own mojo.

I bet it's the times we live in that is making people get back into "Running". Life sucks for a lot of us, so why not at least pretend to do something about it no?

Were pulling a run tomorrow. 3ed ish (we have modified the game quite a bit). They are going to hunt down a fugitive that escaped from a train wreck out in the NAN.

Rent the following movies and watch them with the group prior:

Blade Runner
Robo Cop
Johnny Nemunic
The Matrix (almost a 100% rip off of 2nd and 3ed Shadowrun)
Termenator
And any Star Trek flick with Borg in it.
The Second "Highlander Flick" (Horrible movie but very Shadowrun esk in setting).

comicshorse
2009-07-24, 07:23 PM
I always recommend watching 'Strange Days' to new players. Just the right mood of paranoia, sleaze, betrayal and violence.All while society goes to hell around you

chiasaur11
2009-07-24, 07:49 PM
That's the spirit!

Two rules I live by when running Shadowrun.

#1 No good deed goes un-punished.
#2 The other side (were all bad guys in 2056) packs the same crap you do. Live by the Panther...Die by the Panther :smallcool:

Ya haveing that low of essence is just begging for some corp to "experiment" on. Their are worse things than death.

I hope that 4th ed keeps up the tradition that no one is invincible. I've always loved that every mage at some point or another has "geeked" himself with his own mojo.

I bet it's the times we live in that is making people get back into "Running". Life sucks for a lot of us, so why not at least pretend to do something about it no?

Were pulling a run tomorrow. 3ed ish (we have modified the game quite a bit). They are going to hunt down a fugitive that escaped from a train wreck out in the NAN.

Rent the following movies and watch them with the group prior:

Blade Runner
Robo Cop
Johnny mnemonic
The Matrix (almost a 100% rip off of 2nd and 3ed Shadowrun)
Terminator
And any Star Trek flick with Borg in it.
The Second "Highlander Flick" (Horrible movie but very Shadowrun esk in setting).

C'mon, go to the source.

The novels. Gibson, Phillip K, even Stephanson if you want to go one step closer to upbeat. Good stuff.

potatocubed
2009-07-25, 03:59 AM
He managed to bring it down to 0.05. I didn't think you could even do that.

He'll pay for this.

Oo! Oo! Vampires!

The 'Essence Drain' power is on page 288 of the core rulebook - the vamp will have to manipulate the character a bit to set it up, but it's almost guaranteed death. Or you could forget the manipulation and just blat him with an emotion control spell.

kjones
2009-07-25, 09:46 AM
Oo! Oo! Vampires!

The 'Essence Drain' power is on page 288 of the core rulebook - the vamp will have to manipulate the character a bit to set it up, but it's almost guaranteed death. Or you could forget the manipulation and just blat him with an emotion control spell.

Brilliant! :smallbiggrin: I kind of skimmed over the Critters section, so I didn't see this. His comeuppance will come, and it will be glorious.

GreyMantle
2009-07-25, 12:36 PM
I'm sorry, kjones, but that is borderline GM-wankery.

Okay, so the player has done a lot of things to his character and brought his Essence down to .05. And? Unless he's a psychopathic power-munchkin, I think that actually killing his character is far from called for.

I mean, what you're doing is punishing him for making his character in one way. It's like throwing nothing but undead, constructs, elementals, and oozes at a party with a sorcerer who just learned dominate person. It's a Bad Thing.

I would advise one or a combination of several possible actions, NONE of which killing the PC.

(1) Inform him that you really don't like how far he has pushed his essence down, and politely request that he do some quick modifications to his character sheet, with refunds for whatever he's ditching.

(2) Inform him that, because he has done so much to his body, he has gotten on the radars of corps interested in crazy-augmentations. They are now very interested in him, so he might have to be extra-careful in the future. Possibly combine this with an offer of (1).

(3) Tell him that he will only be allowed to keep this character if he seriously role-plays the fact that he is barely a human (or dorf of elf or ork or whatever). Lack of empathy, coldness, machine-like apathy, whatever.

But really, killing him will turn into nothing more than an alpha-male power struggle.

Winterwind
2009-07-25, 12:41 PM
I agree with GreyMantle. What you are trying to do here, kjones, is trying to find ways to kill a character who didn't even do anything particularly munchkin-y for no reason whatsoever. That's just about the worst GM-style imaginable.

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-25, 12:50 PM
Brilliant! :smallbiggrin: I kind of skimmed over the Critters section, so I didn't see this. His comeuppance will come, and it will be glorious.

You really don't need to go very far out of your way to make this character go away. Just think about how the game world is going to react to him for a second. In pretty much any social setting he's going to stick out like a sore thumb: people are going to be very uneasy around him except for other cyber-nuts, the only social skill he's going to be effective at in any way is Intimidate, he's not going to heal worth a damn, and, most of all, in any firefight as soon as the opposing side realizes that he's cybered to hell and back they're going to want him dead and as soon as possible. And rightly so, he's a very dangerous opponent, almost on the level of the timeless Shadowrun saying: Geek the mage first.

The only thing you really need to do is inform the player of this (though he/she really should be aware of it anyway.) Remember, this is Shadowrun and the characters are essentially criminals. It's okay for the game world to basically be out to get the players (within reason, of course), because it is out to get them.

NPCMook
2009-07-25, 12:52 PM
I'm sorry, kjones, but that is borderline GM-wankery.

Okay, so the player has done a lot of things to his character and brought his Essence down to .05. And? Unless he's a psychopathic power-munchkin, I think that actually killing his character is far from called for.

I mean, what you're doing is punishing him for making his character in one way. It's like throwing nothing but undead, constructs, elementals, and oozes at a party with a sorcerer who just learned dominate person. It's a Bad Thing.

I would advise one or a combination of several possible actions, NONE of which killing the PC.

(1) Inform him that you really don't like how far he has pushed his essence down, and politely request that he do some quick modifications to his character sheet, with refunds for whatever he's ditching.

(2) Inform him that, because he has done so much to his body, he has gotten on the radars of corps interested in crazy-augmentations. They are now very interested in him, so he might have to be extra-careful in the future. Possibly combine this with an offer of (1).

(3) Tell him that he will only be allowed to keep this character if he seriously role-plays the fact that he is barely a human (or dorf of elf or ork or whatever). Lack of empathy, coldness, machine-like apathy, whatever.

But really, killing him will turn into nothing more than an alpha-male power struggle.

(4) Cyberzombie, the book Augmentation has rules for creating and playing them.

kjones
2009-07-25, 01:11 PM
I'm sorry, I guess I didn't make it clear that I'm not serious about punishing him for his low Essence score. Honestly, I think it's funny that he managed to get it so low - we were joking about making a character with .001 Essence, and what they would be like, and then we started seriously wondering how low it could go.

I don't think his character is even that munchkin-y munchkiny at all. He wanted to make a character who could be both a hacker and a rigger, and while their skill-sets are related, the specializations are quite different. He can do both, but he excels at neither. And I worked with him extensively on his character, so if he turns out too strong, it's entirely my own fault.

I'm not going to throw vampires at him just to be cruel.

(For those who would rather think of me as a killer GM - his negative properties are, IIRC, Allergic to Silver, Low Pain Tolerance, and Weak Immune System, so I was thinking that I would have someone stab him with an infected silver dagger.)

But in seriousness, he understands that having a low Essence is potentially a serious liability. As I understand it, low Essence doesn't convey penalties on social scores in 4e, though I might houserule that in later. But there are other difficulties he may face, vampires among them.

And I don't want to pick up a reputation as a killer GM on these boards. I mean, sure, I keep track of every player I've killed by taping skulls to my GM screen, :smallamused: but my players have never accused me of being unfair about it.

(If you want examples, take a look at my Red Hand of Doom campaign journal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100257) and judge for yourself.)

NPCMook
2009-07-25, 01:15 PM
If you have access to the Augmentation book, you could bump the starting BP up by 50 for everyone and allow him to just play Robocop a Cyborg character

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-25, 01:24 PM
(For those who would rather think of me as a killer GM - his negative properties are, IIRC, Allergic to Silver, Low Pain Tolerance, and Weak Immune System, so I was thinking that I would have someone stab him with an infected silver dagger.)

Weak immune system?

Here's an idea: a lot of cyberware is pretty invasive (especially things like wired reflexes), if he's already got a weak immune system then having all that cyber is only going to make it worse.


As I understand it, low Essence doesn't convey penalties on social scores in 4e, though I might houserule that in later. But there are other difficulties he may face, vampires among them.

It doesn't to my knowledge. But just think about how he probably looks. If he's got a lot of visible cyber, he's going to look like a freak.

kjones
2009-07-25, 01:31 PM
From the book, p. 84:


Weak Immune System oft en results from immuno-suppression treatments used in cybersurgery and bio-genetic procedures, so it’s reasonable to believe that characters that have undergone extensive body modification are more likely to acquire this quality.

It makes sense that he might have picked this up after all his implants, but I think the effect of the implants is already taken into account by the quality itself. (That is, the penalty to Body rolls against disease.)

As for looking like a freak... I think a lot of it is internal, not much obvious stuff like limb replacements, but it should still show. I'm curious as to what he thinks his character looks like.

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-25, 01:38 PM
From the book, p. 84:

Ahhh...right.

Curse my not having looked at the book in over a year...



It makes sense that he might have picked this up after all his implants, but I think the effect of the implants is already taken into account by the quality itself. (That is, the penalty to Body rolls against disease.)

That'd be the other way to play it.



As for looking like a freak... I think a lot of it is internal, not much obvious stuff like limb replacements, but it should still show. I'm curious as to what he thinks his character looks like.

At .05 Essense I'd say that there's probably something about him that's showing.

I dunno, it's your game and it seems like you've got all your ducks in a row, so to speak. It really all depends on what he's got and what kind of quality it is. If he's got lower-quality cybereyes that don't even try to imitate real eyes then that's going to work against him a lot more than, say, a set of retractable hand razors.

Deliverance
2009-07-25, 03:31 PM
Without a gold-plated DocWagon contract, access to a top hospital, or high-powered party healer, such a low-essence character is going to be incredibly fragile.

Let the player have his fun while the character lasts - he is not long for this world. :)

Winterwind
2009-07-25, 03:49 PM
I'm sorry, I guess I didn't make it clear that I'm not serious about punishing him for his low Essence score. Honestly, I think it's funny that he managed to get it so low - we were joking about making a character with .001 Essence, and what they would be like, and then we started seriously wondering how low it could go.

[...]

And I don't want to pick up a reputation as a killer GM on these boards. I mean, sure, I keep track of every player I've killed by taping skulls to my GM screen, :smallamused: but my players have never accused me of being unfair about it.

(If you want examples, take a look at my Red Hand of Doom campaign journal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100257) and judge for yourself.)Alright, nevermind then. My apologies if I seemed too harsh. :smallredface:

Hawriel
2009-07-26, 02:52 AM
Grommen you really should read William Giblson. Fasa ripped off of Gibson like Gygax ripped off of; Arther, Connan, Tolken, The Bible, Greek myth......every one.

Sence there is alot of talk about the evils of crome, how about mention the the side effects of wetware.

Bioware may not cost essence but it can have some big penalties. Almost to the point ware it's not worth it. They can be inharent to the ware itself or brought on by injury. Enhanced articulation for example can cripple you with carpul tunnel for example.

Krrth
2009-07-27, 08:47 AM
Quick question: It's been mentioned that my mage needs to pick up the Sterilize spell. However, I was unable to find it in the 4e book. Can anyone point me in the right direction so I can pick it up? Thanks.

Cristo Meyers
2009-07-27, 01:43 PM
Quick question: It's been mentioned that my mage needs to pick up the Sterilize spell. However, I was unable to find it in the 4e book. Can anyone point me in the right direction so I can pick it up? Thanks.

Might be in the Street Magic supplement.

Swordguy
2009-07-27, 02:23 PM
I think it is. Make sure to read the spell descriptions - some of the spell names may have changed between 3 and 4e.

potatocubed
2009-07-27, 03:01 PM
Page 174 of Street Magic.

OverdrivePrime
2009-07-27, 03:17 PM
Sence there is alot of talk about the evils of crome, how about mention the the side effects of wetware.

Bioware may not cost essence but it can have some big penalties. Almost to the point ware it's not worth it. They can be inharent to the ware itself or brought on by injury. Enhanced articulation for example can cripple you with carpul tunnel for example.

Hm... this would be interesting to discuss. Up until now, I've been under the impression that the only real downside to bioware is cost. Sure, the chrome parts are usually a teensy bit more durable than bioware that performs a similar function, but the ability to slide past security, regrow your injured implants, or just plain blend in with the rest of metahumanity seems to more than make up for the slight performance hit.
Back in 2nd and 3rd edition there was Biosystem Overstress or something like that, but that seemed to be extremely rare, and as far as I'm aware doesn't exist in 4th edition.

Though, I haven't picked up Augmentation yet. Is that book worth introducing to my campaign?

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-07-27, 03:21 PM
I just want to put it out there that The Matrix was stated to having been inspired by the Ghost in the Shell movie (you really see it in the 'jacking in' stuff as well as the lobby gunfight scene).

In any case, 4th ed really calls out for one to run really silly concepts. A shapeshifting literal Navy Seal, a giant invisible rabbit named Harvey, a vile antagonist that's a bi bi-polar bare bear of a polar pedobear, a SURGE III lawyer that literally projects an aura of pure evil so potent that even animals can feel it... It's a really run system to toy with for someone with a sense of humor as twisted as mine.

Krrth
2009-07-27, 06:07 PM
Thanks very much. I'll have to see if we have access to Street Magic.

On another note, the look on the GM's face when Lonestar glitched while running my characters rank one fake SiN was quite funny.

Swordguy
2009-07-27, 06:15 PM
On another note, the look on the GM's face when Lonestar glitched while running my characters rank one fake SiN was quite funny.

Man, you got lucky. Buying a Fake SIN 1, and having checked out by Lone Star? Somebody likes living dangerously...:smalltongue:

Krrth
2009-07-27, 07:11 PM
Man, you got lucky. Buying a Fake SIN 1, and having checked out by Lone Star? Somebody likes living dangerously...:smalltongue:

....it wasn't on purpose. My character managed to get himself "invited" into the target resort as a "guest" (read: "escort"). He was signed in under a fake name of "John Smith". Basically, a rank one ID. When one of the other guests went missing, they interviewed all the magically active guests.

They just happened to glitch on mine. Lucky indeed.

The GM did throw us a curve though...the rest of the team that actually snatched the target got away. We were being payed $25,000 for the run. The target offered the others $100,000 if they would get him back for the reading of the will.....

comicshorse
2009-07-27, 08:47 PM
Heh, a Shadowrunning moral dilemma. Professionalism or money ?

chiasaur11
2009-07-27, 09:11 PM
Heh, a Shadowrunning moral dilemma. Professionalism or money ?

When that sort of thing happens, I always ask myself "What would Death's Head do?"

The answer is always whatever earns the most money.

Grommen
2009-07-27, 09:57 PM
Bio has several major drawbacks, among them the money cost (have you seen the prices geezh!). I got a book around some where detailing the bad things that can happen if you stress your bio out too much. And it ain't pretty.

Far as who made who. In general pretty much everything is borrowed or re-worked from something. I suffered thought "Ghost in the Shell", and perhaps I just didn't see the similarities. The "Matrix" is pretty close to "The Matrix". Not the money grubbing squeals. I've not read up on 4th ed so it's quite possible that things have changed. Anyway it's all good. Shadowrun is it's own place, even if some of it is borrowed.

Had fun Saturday though. Ended up killing my NPC tag along gun bunny to keep the new players alive. Blasted a Physical Adapt Sniper out of a tree with one of the biggest fireballs I've ever witnessed. Most of us had fun (Ok ya the the Physical Adapt was a little bummed) but thems the brakes. The poor shaman that blasted him ended up ganking himself with the drain and took a serious stun.

Funnest thing was when we got to the Shaman (who was our target to pick up) the new Street Sami blasted his head off. Then he gets on the radio and and asks, "Hay man did we need him alive?".

Raum
2009-07-27, 11:07 PM
Far as who made who. In general pretty much everything is borrowed or re-worked from something. Yep, nothing is made without outside influences. Shadowrun, in particular, took a bunch of real world mythology, some 1980s era issues (racism and terrorism) and fears (technology reducing humanity, large corporations taking over, and Japan buying up large portions of the US) and mixed them all together with a hefty dose of creativity. The result has been one of my favorite games for a long time. :smallsmile: It may be worth pointing out that Shadowrun was out long before most of the movies recommended previously.


Funnest thing was when we got to the Shaman (who was our target to pick up) the new Street Sami blasted his head off. Then he gets on the radio and and asks, "Hay man did we need him alive?".Hehe, classic runner...shoot first and ask question afterwards. :smallwink: