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Omegonthesane
2009-07-22, 08:14 AM
Mage Priest
"No mortal can wield true power unaided." / "Watch as I wield blaster-master spells in the name of Pelor!" (take your pick)

A Mage Priest is my attempt to replace the Mystic Theurge. The class features may be too powerful, but I was trying to make sure she could keep up without simply giving her "+2 levels of arcane spellcasting/+2 levels of divine spellcasting".

To qualify to become a mage priest, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Skills
Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks OR Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks

Spells
Able to cast both arcane and divine spells. No, invocations do not count as arcane spells for this purpose.

Special
Access to at least one clerical domain.
Must have no levels in the Ur-Priest, Divine Crusader, or Apostle of Peace prestige classes.

Class Skills

The mage priestís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are features of the Mage Priest prestige class.

Hit Die
d4

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Mage Priests gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells per Day
When a new mage priest level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mage priest to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mage priest, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mage priest for the purpose of determining spells per day.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Mystic Theurgy (Heal or Inflict)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Doublecast 1/day|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Armour Use (light)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Mystic Theurgy (Power Equals Power)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Doublecast 3/day|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Not a Dead Level|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Mystic Theurgy (Magic Equals Magic)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Doublecast 5/day|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Armour Use (medium)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Mystic Theurgy (Skill Equals Skill)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Not a Dead Level|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

12th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+8|Not a Dead Level|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

13th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+8|Mystic Theurgy (Fuel Equals Fuel)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

14th|
+7|
+4|
+4|
+9|Not a Dead Level|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

15th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+9|Sublime Doublecast|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class[/table]

Mystic Theurgy: By wielding both arcane and divine power, a Mage Priest realises the inevitable similarities between the two energies, and can mix and match them in his spellcasting.

Heal or Inflict: At 1st level, a Mage Priest may treat his arcane spell slots as divine spell slots for the purpose of a cleric's ability to spontaneously cast Cure or Inflict spells.

Power Equals Power: At 4th level, if a Mage Priest is a specialist wizard, he may prepare domain spells in the bonus slots he gets for being a specialist wizard - even domain spells of a school which is forbidden to him. Otherwise, he gains a bonus arcane spell per day of every level, in which he can only prepare domain spells (even if he casts arcane spells spontaneously like a Sorcerer). In addition, a Mage Priest gains a holy school of arcane magic at 4th level; if he is a specialist wizard, this is the same as his specialist school, and if not, he may choose one. He may prepare arcane spells of his holy school in either his divine domain slot or his arcane domain slot. Regardless of the spell list a spell comes from, spells cast from arcane slots are arcane spells and spells cast from divine slots are divine spells.

Magic Equals Magic: At 7th level, a Mage Priest gains access to the Magic domain even if his god cannot normally grant it. If he already has access to the Magic domain, he may choose another bonus domain.

Skill Equals Skill: Well is it said that true power cannot be attained by mortals without divine aid. All spells cast by a Mage Priest of at least 10th level count as having a base caster level (before other features, like being a Wild Mage, adjust it) equal to the sum of all her arcane spellcasting class levels, all her divine spellcasting class levels, and all her Mage Priest class levels, minus one. So a 4 Wizard/1 Cleric/15 Mage Priest has a caster level of 19 with both arcane and divine spells, and not a caster level of 19 with arcane and 16 with divine as would otherwise be the case.

Fuel Equals Fuel: Power equals power, and burning one kind of power can create another kind of power. At will, a Mage Priest of 13th level or higher may spontaneously apply one (and only one) metamagic feat to any spell she casts, as if she was a sorcerer, without increasing its spell level. To do this, she must 'lose' two spell slots (arcane or divine, prepared or otherwise) whose levels add up to twice the level the metamagic feat would adjust the spell by or more. For example, she could cast maximised cure critical wounds by sacrificing two 3rd level spell slots or one 1st level slot and one 6th level slot. She may not use this ability to cast spells that would normally be beyond her capability. For example, a Mage Priest that can cast 8th level spells would not be able to use Fuel Equals Fuel to maximize a 6th level spell because she can't usually cast a 9th level spell.

Doublecast: A 2nd level or higher Mage Priest may, as a full-round action, cast an arcane spell and a divine spell in the same round, provided neither requires more than a full-round action to cast. However, she may not take any other action during this round - not even a 5-foot step or a quickened action. If a doublecast is interrupted, use only the higher spell level to determine the Concentration DC. If a Mage Priest fails the Concentration check to concentrate on a doublecast, both the spells he was trying to cast are wasted. A Mage Priest may doublecast once a day at 2nd level, 3 times a day at 5th level, and 5 times a day at 8th level.

Armour Use: Mage Priests come to realise that arcane energy is not so very different from divine energy, and can be manipulated even in heavy armour. A 3rd level Mage Priest ignores arcane spell failure caused by light armour. A 6th level Mage Priest ignores arcane spell failure caused by medium armour.

Not a Dead Level: You're getting spellcasting progression in two classes at once. Stop complaining.

Sublime Doublecast: A 15th level Mage Priest may doublecast as a standard action, instead of a full round action, even if she would normally need a full-round action to cast one of the spells involved. She can't do this if she is spontaneously applying metamagic to either spell, and she still can't doublecast and use a quickened spell in the same turn, but she no longer suffers from the restriction on taking a 5' step or taking a move action.

Ex-Mage Priests: A Mage Priest who loses her divine spellcasting power loses all Mystic Theurgy abilities, all Armour Use abilities, and her ability to doublecast. She may not take further levels in Mage Priest until she can cast divine spells again - whether by atoning, or by finding a new divine patron.

DracoDei
2009-07-22, 10:02 AM
I would put the entry requirements back to what they were for the original Mystic Theurge. Dabblers in one path or the other should not be able to synthesize them.

I believe ONE of the problems with the original Mystic Theurge is that it leaves you high and dry for levels 17-20. Yours has the same problem, except it isn't quite as severe since you can enter it with Wizard 3/Cleric 1 or Wizard 1/Cleric 3 as written (which I don't like), and the capstone also helps a lot. Basically, if you keep the current entry requirements, seriously consider extending it to 16 levels, even if levels 11-16 give no class abilities. Similarly, if you go back to the old entry requirements, it should be a 14 level class.

deuxhero
2009-07-22, 11:00 AM
What would be different from takeing 6 levels of the existing Mystic Theurge to finish the last few levels instead of having 6 class featureless "mage priest" levels?

Omegonthesane
2009-07-22, 11:34 AM
@DracoDei The biggest problem with Mystic Theurge is the requirement to sacrifice 3 caster levels, rather than only 2. The way I see it, they'd be either a wizard so devout as to dabble in divine magic or a priest with the smarts (or the draconic blood...) to dabble in arcane magic. I get where you're coming from with "should be equal to blur the line" but the fact is, once you've lost 2 caster levels, you are no stronger than your cohort; once you've lost 3, you are weaker than your cohort.

And before you whine about 3 caster levels not being much: You aren't taking those 3 from a linear progression, you're taking them from the exponent of an exponential progression. It isn't the difference between 4 and 7, it's the difference between 2x2x2x2=16 and 2x2x2x2x2x2x2=128... well, slight exaggeration, but you get the picture. Maybe I should have used 1.5 instead of 2 as the base number...

I agree about the high and dry problem, but there is the original Mystic Theurge to fill out remaining levels, and I'd need to think of 5 new class features to justify a 15-level Mage Priest. 6, if we wanted people to take this class to full term. Though that said, he could do with more class features - right now you're losing a caster level to have the spellcasting of a cohort 3 levels weaker than you, in addition to your actual cohort.

Maybe a few bonus feats spread out along the class as it is, and Doublecast (at will) as a capstone?

zagan
2009-07-22, 11:48 AM
If you want more ability, I got one.

A good name for that ability: Use you's character level as a caster level for determining spell duration, damage dealt and range.

Milskidasith
2009-07-22, 11:59 AM
Couldn't you enter this at Wizard1/Cleric1 now, because of the fact that you could cast one second level spell with precocious apprentice?

Omegonthesane
2009-07-22, 12:03 PM
Couldn't you enter this at Wizard1/Cleric1 now, because of the fact that you could cast one second level spell with precocious apprentice?

I don't know what exploit that is, but if you could, that's a good thing. It means you can have both arcane and divine spellcasting of a level appropriate kind without being weaker than your cohort in either.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-22, 12:13 PM
I don't know what exploit that is, but if you could, that's a good thing. It means you can have both arcane and divine spellcasting of a level appropriate kind without being weaker than your cohort in either.

But it breaks every single PrC design principle WotC has set. No one enters a PrC before level 6.

I think there are two exceptions, but both are specifically designed to lead to other PrCs.

AgentPaper
2009-07-22, 12:24 PM
Might be better to still require level 2 spells from divine and arcane, but then to give back 2 spell levels over the course of the PrC. Then, also make it a 14-level PrC, or even better make a few 4-level PrCs that do the same thing but with slightly different flavor for each.

AstralFire
2009-07-22, 12:26 PM
Instead of using the spell level requirement which heartily screws with Warlocks, Sorcerers, Favored Souls and Shugenja while allowing the feat exploit, I would go with 'Arcane or Divine Caster level 5th', counting invocations as spells, and 'ability to cast both Arcane and Divine spells of 1st level or higher'.

This allows you to prevent getting screwed in the early levels of development, as I see Rose Dragon's point and your own.

However, I think this really illustrates one of the many weaknesses of 3.x design, and you've got the material here to simply make a base class which can be better balanced and allow for a more consistent level of power. I feel that the 'hybridizing prestige classes' have always been stopgap measures at best. The only ones which seem to work well IMO are those for ToB, namely because non-martial levels still improve your ToB abilities somewhat.

Milskidasith
2009-07-22, 12:35 PM
Yeah, the "fifth level caster" in one class and able to cast both spells would be a good way of setting this up; and then you would have some decent spells from one class and only one caster level lost in the other.

AgentPaper
2009-07-22, 12:47 PM
I should mention that, in the case of a wizard/cleric combo, at least, you need to lose at least 2 caster levels. Even losing those two levels, you end up with 4 level 9 spells, the same as a straight caster. You also have about twice as many spells in your lower slots. However, you do have to wait 2 levels longer to get to those high level spells, and can't take any special PrCs, so it's probably balanced.

Omegonthesane
2009-07-22, 01:01 PM
Instead of using the spell level requirement which heartily screws with Warlocks, Sorcerers, Favored Souls and Shugenja while allowing the feat exploit, I would go with 'Arcane or Divine Caster level 5th', counting invocations as spells, and 'ability to cast both Arcane and Divine spells of 1st level or higher'.
I'm not worried in the slightest about screwing over Favoured Souls and Shugenja with the spell level requirement, because they're already screwed over by the fact you need domains. This is called Mage Priest for a reason; I want it to be clerics only, because I couldn't think of many decent class features without using domains. Sorcerers, meanwhile, are not entirely screwed over as they can go Cleric 3/Sorcerer 1/Mage Priest X.

I'll be making a similar thingy - I dunno, "Favoured Arcanist" or "Holy Mage" or something - which has Shugenjas & Favoured Souls in mind.

Warlocks are not a real arcane spellcasting class, and cannot keep up with the power stakes if they aren't gaining martial capabilities as well as invoking. I don't honestly think Warlock/Cleric/Mage Priest is even remotely worth considering. Maybe Warlock would suck less if it had invocations that actually matter when spammed, or an Eldritch Blast that could keep up with a martial archer, but that's for another thread (and the Spherelock's already been made).


However, I think this really illustrates one of the many weaknesses of 3.x design, and you've got the material here to simply make a base class which can be better balanced and allow for a more consistent level of power. I feel that the 'hybridizing prestige classes' have always been stopgap measures at best. The only ones which seem to work well IMO are those for ToB, namely because non-martial levels still improve your ToB abilities somewhat.
Point, set, and match. I just think making the Mage Priest base class is a little too much bookkeeping with two separate spellcasting tables.


But it breaks every single PrC design principle WotC has set. No one enters a PrC before level 6.

I think there are two exceptions, but both are specifically designed to lead to other PrCs.
I don't particularly care what WotC thinks PrCs should do, they have messed up so many times it's not even all that funny anymore. That said, I have gone back and edited so you need caster level 3rd - you canna enter this PrC before level 4 at least.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-22, 01:32 PM
Warlocks are not a real arcane spellcasting class, and cannot keep up with the power stakes if they aren't gaining martial capabilities as well as invoking. I don't honestly think Warlock/Cleric/Mage Priest is even remotely worth considering. Maybe Warlock would suck less if it had invocations that actually matter when spammed, or an Eldritch Blast that could keep up with a martial archer, but that's for another thread (and the Spherelock's already been made).

Also, the warlock already has the Eldritch Disciple and Eldritch Theurge, which grant abilities that actually interact with invocations, so there's no reason to include the warlock here.

AstralFire
2009-07-22, 01:49 PM
Point, set, and match. I just think making the Mage Priest base class is a little too much bookkeeping with two separate spellcasting tables.

I'd be interested to see your take on it if you do. While I am not the world's biggest fan of prepared spell casters, I think your class features are a good look at how to make a utility caster with ridiculous amounts of slots that is not inferior in every important way to a full caster.


Also, the warlock already has the Eldritch Disciple and Eldritch Theurge, which grant abilities that actually interact with invocations, so there's no reason to include the warlock here.

I like throwing multiple weak classes a bone whenever possible, even if it's not much of one. That's just me. :)

Mulletmanalive
2009-07-22, 03:31 PM
I always thought the point of the hybrid classes was to allow players who wanted to do everything to be able to do everything without making them significantly more powerful than their allies.

Coming from a 2nd ed background, Mystic Theurge has never seemed like a particularly underpowered option. I like the doublecast feature, though i'm somewhat dubious of the idea of using mystic slots to prepare arcane spells and vice versa. I can't imagine most deities being too happy about that.

I'd've thought that extending the Mystic Theurge to level 20 and maybe adding some abilities that increased their caster level every now and again would have been sufficient. Of course, Doublecast is sweet so i'd want that still in there too; the idea of a guy kneeling beside a wounded comrade firing lightning from one hand and defibrilating the casualty with the other is too good to miss.

As a further note, Arcane Theurgy is actually a double negative; Theurgy is a magical practice that is intended to elevate you to Godhood through esoteric means. It's the 'Mystic' part of the name that refers to Divinity. Incidentally, the original class would be better named Mystic Thaumaturgist but still.

Omegonthesane
2009-07-22, 03:41 PM
Coming from a 2nd ed background, Mystic Theurge has never seemed like a particularly underpowered option. I like the doublecast feature, though i'm somewhat dubious of the idea of using mystic slots to prepare arcane spells and vice versa. I can't imagine most deities being too happy about that.
I fail to see the problem Power equals power, arcane or divine, and if it's wielded in a god's name, they should support it. It just struck me as a sweet capstone that wasn't too overpowered as they're only getting a ludicrous number of lower level spell slots from it anyway.


I'd've thought that extending the Mystic Theurge to level 20 and maybe adding some abilities that increased their caster level every now and again would have been sufficient. Of course, Doublecast is sweet so i'd want that still in there too; the idea of a guy kneeling beside a wounded comrade firing lightning from one hand and defibrilating the casualty with the other is too good to miss.
The big problem with MT is its entry requirements, which Mage Priest fixes somewhat. Hate to repeat myself, but giving up 3 caster levels isn't the difference between 4 and 7, it's the difference between N to the power 4 and N to the power 7, where N is whichever arbitrary number makes this metaphor most accurate to D&D mechanics.

I might make Mage Priest a 15-level PrC after tweaking the requirements to "Must already be 5th level" types and staggering the class features. In fact I considered adding the following feature to some levels:
Totally Not a Dead Level
Sure you aren't getting any class features, but you're getting your spellcasting advanced in both an arcane and a divine class. Stop complaining.


As a further note, Arcane Theurgy is actually a double negative; Theurgy is a magical practice that is intended to elevate you to Godhood through esoteric means. It's the 'Mystic' part of the name that refers to Divinity. Incidentally, the original class would be better named Mystic Thaumaturgist but still.
This is the Homebrewing forum. I'm sure Rich will make us a Semantics forum if you ask him nicely enough. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Seriously tweaked Mage Priest, it is now a 15-level PrC which gets all would-be users to 20th level.

Milskidasith
2009-07-23, 01:54 AM
You might want to change the wording on True Spellcasting Power; at the moment, it makes caster level increases from items totally useless, and is thus actually a negative trait.

It should say something like "the minimum caster level for all spells cast by a Mage Priest is, at minimum, equal to his character level. If it is higher than his character level, do not decrease it."

You also might want to change the wording on it so that you can't get caster levels by taking levels in martial classes; maybe it's just late and I'm forgetting something, but after you have ninth level slots in both your divine class and your arcane class, along with an ability that gives you caster levels in both, I don't see the point in taking mage levels when you get the primary benefits of them while taking levels in something with D12 hit dice.

Omegonthesane
2009-07-23, 02:02 AM
You might want to change the wording on True Spellcasting Power; at the moment, it makes caster level increases totally useless, and is thus actually a negative trait.

It should say something like "the minimum caster level for all spells cast by a Mage Priest is, at minimum, equal to his character level. If it is higher than his character level, do not decrease it."
Hadn't thought about that - but seriously, under what circumstances is your basic caster level higher than your character level anyway? The exact words can be used to screw Wild Magi, I know, but other than that?


You also might want to change the wording on it so that you can't get caster levels by taking levels in martial classes; maybe it's just late and I'm forgetting something, but after you have ninth level slots in both your divine class and your arcane class, along with an ability that gives you caster levels in both, I don't see the point in taking mage levels when you get the primary benefits of them while taking levels in something with D12 hit dice.
Caster levels aren't spells known levels. Martial classes won't give you extra spells. And you can't reach 15 Mage Priest before character level 20, and 15 Mage Priest gives Doublecast At Will. If your DM isnt' throwing enough encounters at you to make Doublecast At Will worthwhile, he's doing it wrong.

PId6
2009-07-23, 04:05 AM
Okay, I don't say this often, but here it is: this class is waaaaaay too strong.

Why would any wizard or cleric NOT take this class? You get full caster level in both classes, and the ability to cast two spells per round before quicken at-will? Add Armor Use, an ability that makes divine metamagic cry cheese, and the completely unnecessary ability to put any of his spells into whatever slot available? This class puts Incantatrix to shame.

If you want it to be balanced, you're going to have to make quite a few changes. Doublecast is an amazing ability, and at most, it should be 5/day. True Spellcasting Power should not be, while Armor Use should be nerfed so that you get medium armor at most (leaves some use for Battle Caster and it's still not nerfing that much since you'll probably want mithril armor anyway). Power Equals Power is just terrible. It basically destroys any meaning for the limits on an ability like Doublecast and Metamagic Fuel and it effectively doubles your potential spell slots for both classes. Please, no.

Finally, Metamagic Fuel is just too abusable. You can already have Divine Metamagic, don't make it even worse. Persistent Time Stop? Easy. Twinned Disjunction? No problem. You should at least limit the maximum level of the metamagic'd spell to a level you can actually cast. For example, a wizard that can cast 8th level spells would be able to use Metamagic Fuel to maximize a 5th level spell, since he can normally cast an 8th level spell. He can't maximize a 6th level spell using this because he can't usually cast a 9th level spell. It'd at least put some limits on the ability.

All of these incredibly strong abilities put together make for one completely broken class.

AstralFire
2009-07-23, 04:41 AM
Just at a quick glance, I'm going to mention that my idea that entry should be based on caster level was predicated partially on the class remaining a 10 level class. I'm not sure how I feel about it being 15 levels.

Omegonthesane
2009-07-23, 04:54 AM
Finally, someone comments on the class features...


Why would any wizard or cleric NOT take this class? You get full caster level in both classes, and the ability to cast two spells per round before quicken at-will? Add Armor Use, an ability that makes divine metamagic cry cheese, and the completely unnecessary ability to put any of his spells into whatever slot available? This class puts Incantatrix to shame.
I was getting a little thin on class feature ideas, and I don't feel dead levels are excusable - not even in this class. As for why any wizard or cleric wouldn't take this class? You're losing a whole caster level to have spellcasting ability weaker than your cohort. As well ask why any wizard or cleric wouldn't take the Leadership feat to just have a cohort - which gives them better than Doublecast, too, because you can't distract two people as easily as one person.

EDIT: Also, maybe you're misreading Doublecast - it's a full-round action, so you can't get any quickened spells in while doublecasting.


If you want it to be balanced, you're going to have to make quite a few changes. Doublecast is an amazing ability, and at most, it should be 5/day.
The Leadership feat lets you doublecast - you cast a spell, then your cohort casts a spell. I appreciate it can be abused with Power equals Power, so I'll go rewrite it so you can't use two Sorcerer/Wizard spells in one round.


True Spellcasting Power should not be
Why?


while Armor Use should be nerfed so that you get medium armor at most (leaves some use for Battle Caster and it's still not nerfing that much since you'll probably want mithril armor anyway).
Granted. Please suggest a class feature I should give instead of Armour Use (heavy) because I'm not giving Mage Priest a single dead level. Not. One.


Power Equals Power is just terrible. It basically destroys any meaning for the limits on an ability like Doublecast and Metamagic Fuel and it effectively doubles your potential spell slots for both classes. Please, no.
It doesn't do anything to Metamagic Fuel actually, and yes, it is a little too powerful with Doublecast. I'll change it so you can only prepare one arcane spell of each divine spell level and one divine spell of each arcane spell level, will that make it a little less broken?


Finally, Metamagic Fuel is just too abusable. You can already have Divine Metamagic, don't make it even worse.
Read a little more carefully. It does have its limits - you can only Metamagic Fuel one feat per spell cast, and you are still limited by what spell level you could normally cast.

Or you could suggest a replacement class feature. Or you could assume that Divine Metamagic is forever banned like the crapsack it is, or else is limited in the same way as Metamagic Fuel.


Persistent Time Stop? Easy.
Persistent Time Stop? Completely impossible before Epic, whereupon I stop caring. Persistent Time Stop in a 9th level slot? Easy... but you have to already have a 15th level slot, so you're probably really broken anyway.


Twinned Disjunction? No problem.
See above.


You should at least limit the maximum level of the metamagic'd spell to a level you can actually cast.
I already did, if I recall right.


For example, a wizard that can cast 8th level spells would be able to use Metamagic Fuel to maximize a 5th level spell, since he can normally cast an 8th level spell. He can't maximize a 6th level spell using this because he can't usually cast a 9th level spell. It'd at least put some limits on the ability.


Metamagic Fuel: At will, a Mage Priest may spontaneously apply one (and only one) metamagic feat to any spell she casts, as if she was a sorcerer, without increasing its spell level. To do this, she must 'lose' a spell slot (arcane or divine, prepared or otherwise) of a level equal to the level the metamagic feat would adjust the spell by. For example, she could cast maximised cure critical wounds by sacrificing a 3rd level spell slot. She may not use this ability to cast spells that would normally be beyond her capability, like a maximized mass cure critical wounds pre-Epic.
However, thanks for the better written example, I will copy/paste it into the Mage Priest and Chosen Sorcerer.

Omegonthesane
2009-07-23, 04:56 AM
Just at a quick glance, I'm going to mention that my idea that entry should be based on caster level was predicated partially on the class remaining a 10 level class. I'm not sure how I feel about it being 15 levels.
It is a bit of a dodgy retrofit, and I was hoping for criticism so I can crowbar this class into Not Broken Land. However, this way it doesn't leave you high and dry at level 15 or so.

PId6
2009-07-23, 05:32 AM
Read a little more carefully. It does have its limits - you can only Metamagic Fuel one feat per spell cast, and you are still limited by what spell level you could normally cast.
Bah, completely missed that part; speed reading can be a curse sometimes. It's good, but not broken. However, the other features still are.



I was getting a little thin on class feature ideas, and I don't feel dead levels are excusable - not even in this class.
It's a dual progression class, not to mention spellcasting. The problem with dead levels has been that A. you wouldn't want to take that level, and B. you don't get anything special at those levels. However, it's not that big a deal with dual progression because A. nothing else offers the same thing so you're going to take the level anyway, and B. you already get spellcasting advancement, meaning new spells and new slots, so it's not like you're not getting anything new, and it's nothing at all like dead levels on a fighter or something.


As for why any wizard or cleric wouldn't take this class? You're losing a whole caster level to have spellcasting ability weaker than your cohort.
If you do a wizard 3/cleric 2/mage priest 15 build, the only thing you end up losing compared to a wizard 20 or cleric 20 is a few extra spell slots and some free wizard spells, due to your True Spellcasting Power resetting your caster level. Considering all you gain in exchange for 4-5 spell slots, it's way too good a deal. And that's not including Power Equals Power, which effectively doubles your spell slots, mitigating even that one drawback twice over.

So, ignoring Power Equals Power, let's compare:

Wizard 20: CL 20, 4/4/4 slots (7th/8th/9th), four bonus feats.
Wiz 3/Clr 2/MP 15: CL 20 and 20, 3/3/2 wizard, 3/2/1 cleric, and all the extra stuff.

After bonus spells, that's a lot more spell slots than a normal wizard 20. Sure, half of it can only use cleric spells, but cleric spells are hardly bad, and they improve your versatility by a lot. If you take away all the extra stuff, I'd consider this about even with a wizard 20, probably slightly better. With all the class features though, the scale is tipped and toppled. Reducing caster level is only the first step.


As well ask why any wizard or cleric wouldn't take the Leadership feat to just have a cohort - which gives them better than Doublecast, too, because you can't distract two people as easily as one person.
And why can't you take Leadership anyway even as a mage priest? Besides, Leadership is pretty broken in and of itself.



EDIT: Also, maybe you're misreading Doublecast - it's a full-round action, so you can't get any quickened spells in while doublecasting.
Quicken is a swift action. Full-round actions only take up your standard and move actions. So you can Doublecast two 9th level spells, then stack a 5th level spell on top of that, and then have your cohort cast another 9th level spell and a quickened 5th level one.

(Note: Leadership cheese allows your cohort to take a cohort for more spells, and then continue stacking more cohorts, but I'll stop there.)


Why?

Since you're using a dual progression class, it should cost you something. Your caster level shouldn't be as high as a full wizard or cleric, otherwise this class just outshines the normal classes too much. A dual progression class should provide you with versatility at the cost of power; not versatility as well as the same casting ability as the original classes. It's not gestalt.



Granted. Please suggest a class feature I should give instead of Armour Use (heavy) because I'm not giving Mage Priest a single dead level. Not. One.

Read above on why dead levels aren't so bad on dual progression. If you're that dead set against dead levels, why not give some kind of fluff ability that make for nice filler without making things too good? The druid's Woodland Stride and Trackless Step abilities, for example, are nice and flavorful without affecting mechanics all that much. Some kind of bonus to Knowledge checks or maybe something involving merging your spellbook and holy symbol?

Ultimately though, it's a bit unreasonable to try to get a special feature on EVERY level of a dual progression class, especially a 15 level one.


It doesn't do anything to Metamagic Fuel actually, and yes, it is a little too powerful with Doublecast. I'll change it so you can only prepare one arcane spell of each divine spell level and one divine spell of each arcane spell level, will that make it a little less broken?

Nevermind, I thought it would work like the Ultimate Magus and require that you expend spell slots from the other side. Actually, the way it is now, I don't really understand what it has to do with a wizard/cleric. Such an ability seems much more fitting on a sorcerer or something. At least make it related to a dual progression class somehow, such as requiring slots from the other side.

And yes, that is a lot less broken. You can no longer double your spell slots from a single side of the progression. Some of the other stuff I pointed out still need to be toned down, though.

Omegonthesane
2009-07-23, 07:04 AM
It's a dual progression class, not to mention spellcasting. The problem with dead levels has been that A. you wouldn't want to take that level, and B. you don't get anything special at those levels. However, it's not that big a deal with dual progression because A. nothing else offers the same thing so you're going to take the level anyway, and B. you already get spellcasting advancement, meaning new spells and new slots, so it's not like you're not getting anything new, and it's nothing at all like dead levels on a fighter or something.
Guess I was overzealous. Gone back, nerfed the progression of Doublecast (until 20th, which is the capstone) and added the joke feature I had originally planned to put in all... undead levels? of this class.


If you do a wizard 3/cleric 2/mage priest 15 build, the only thing you end up losing compared to a wizard 20 or cleric 20 is a few extra spell slots and some free wizard spells, due to your True Spellcasting Power resetting your caster level. Considering all you gain in exchange for 4-5 spell slots, it's way too good a deal. And that's not including Power Equals Power, which effectively doubles your spell slots, mitigating even that one drawback twice over.
Power Equals Power only doubles your lower level spell slots anyway. Until you hit near-Epic, whereupon the whole system breaks.

And why are you going Wiz 3/Clr 2 when you can go Wiz 4/Clr 1? :P

That said I've gone back and made it so even with True Spellcasting Power you lose one caster level. I'd prefer to make it so it's equal to the highest of your arcane and your divine spellcasting caster levels plus your MP level but I wasn't sure I could get that codified too easily.


And why can't you take Leadership anyway even as a mage priest? Besides, Leadership is pretty broken in and of itself.
Point, but "Guy 2 levels below you is a match for you" is a decent benchmark for "You've fallen too far behind"


Quicken is a swift action. Full-round actions only take up your standard and move actions. So you can Doublecast two 9th level spells, then stack a 5th level spell on top of that, and then have your cohort cast another 9th level spell and a quickened 5th level one.
I've specifically gone back and edited it so you can't use quickened spells and doublecast in the same round.


(Note: Leadership cheese allows your cohort to take a cohort for more spells, and then continue stacking more cohorts, but I'll stop there.)
With the minor problem that these extra cohorts will not have spells that are worth using in real fights at your level. But I digress.


Nevermind, I thought it would work like the Ultimate Magus and require that you expend spell slots from the other side. Actually, the way it is now, I don't really understand what it has to do with a wizard/cleric. Such an ability seems much more fitting on a sorcerer or something. At least make it related to a dual progression class somehow, such as requiring slots from the other side.
Point. I instead nerfed it a little more - now it requires double the metamagic adjustment rather than exactly the metamagic adjustment.

*goes back and puts all these into the alternate Chosen Sorcerer class*

mikeejimbo
2009-07-23, 07:16 AM
Mage Priest looks nice. Now how can I enter it with an Archivist?

Omegonthesane
2009-07-23, 07:22 AM
Mage Priest looks nice. Now how can I enter it with an Archivist?
You can't, because too many class features revolve around domains. Besides, two prepared casting classes from the same stat is a little cheesy; Chosen Sorcerer gets away with it because it's a spontaneous caster class.

Or I could just rip out two class features (A New Domain, Priest's Reserve)...

EDIT: Went back. Did so. Also reordered other class features so I don't get many undead levels in a row.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-23, 07:35 AM
You can't, because too many class features revolve around domains. Besides, two prepared casting classes from the same stat is a little cheesy; Chosen Sorcerer gets away with it because it's a spontaneous caster class.

Or I could just rip out two class features (A New Domain, Priest's Reserve)...

EDIT: Went back. Did so. Also reordered other class features so I don't get many undead levels in a row.

Actually, there are a number of ways to obtain extra domains, so I'd say requiring an archivist to spend extra resources on that is a nice balancing factor for the shared prime requisite.

Omegonthesane
2009-07-23, 07:37 AM
Actually, there are a number of ways to obtain extra domains, so I'd say requiring an archivist to spend extra resources on that is a nice balancing factor for the shared prime requisite.

Really? Post one or two so we can answer the original guy's question.

PId6
2009-07-23, 08:03 AM
Guess I was overzealous. Gone back, nerfed the progression of Doublecast (until 20th, which is the capstone) and added the joke feature I had originally planned to put in all... undead levels? of this class.
Okay, I admit, I laughed at that.



And why are you going Wiz 3/Clr 2 when you can go Wiz 4/Clr 1? :P
Wiz 4/Clr 1 gives 16th level cleric, meaning you miss out on 9th level spells. Seems a pretty big difference to me.


That said I've gone back and made it so even with True Spellcasting Power you lose one caster level. I'd prefer to make it so it's equal to the highest of your arcane and your divine spellcasting caster levels plus your MP level but I wasn't sure I could get that codified too easily.

What about "Every spell cast by the mage priest has its base caster level set to her class level plus levels in her primary arcane class, or her class level plus levels in her primary divine class, whichever is higher. For example, a wizard 3/cleric 1/mage priest 12 has a base caster level of 15 for all of her spells, regardless of whether they come from her wizard or cleric slots."

You might also want to specify something about how Practiced Spellcaster won't let you go above this value.

Actually, this wording leaves open a potential abuse since even the CL of spells from other classes are affected, such as sorcerer spells from a wizard 3/cleric 1/sorcerer 1/mage priest 12 having the same CL as her wizard spells. But I can't think of a way to limit that without sounding awkward and I can't really think of why anyone would possibly do this either, so it's not that important.


Point, but "Guy 2 levels below you is a match for you" is a decent benchmark for "You've fallen too far behind"
Yeah, the middle levels are quite a bit worse for a dual progression class than a plain caster. Still, it shouldn't be that much better at level 20 just because of this.


I've specifically gone back and edited it so you can't use quickened spells and doublecast in the same round.
Just say you can't use a swift action (not quickened action) in the same round. It'd be mechanically the same as casting a free quickened spell, except you give up your move action in exchange for being able to quicken higher level spells, which is a very good trade.

But even as a capstone, at will Doublecast is too much. It's free quicken for 6th to 9th level spells, and I really don't think it should go above 5/day, even at level 20. Number of actions is everything at high levels, and being able to cast two 9th level spells makes this vastly superior to other spellcasters that can only cast a 9th and a 5th level spell per round. The only other way to indiscriminately quicken 9th level spells before epic requires a 170,000 gp item, and that only works 3/day.



With the minor problem that these extra cohorts will not have spells that are worth using in real fights at your level. But I digress.
Battlefield control is good at any level. But yeah, that's another issue entirely.



Point. I instead nerfed it a little more - now it requires double the metamagic adjustment rather than exactly the metamagic adjustment.
It's still a little questionable how that ability fits into this PrC, but it's mechanically sound. Add in "or more" after "adjust the spell by" so that you don't have to get exactly the right number to metamagic something.


*goes back and puts all these into the alternate Chosen Sorcerer class*
Which reminds me, I haven't looked much at the chosen sorcerer yet.

Triplecast *shudders*

Omegonthesane
2009-07-23, 08:50 AM
OK, replaced Doublecast At Will with Sublime Doublecast, which reduces the doublecasting time to a standard action (but still blocks quickened spells) and can at least only be used 5/day.

Also, reworded Metamagic Fuel so you don't need the exact value.

Now to go fix the doubtless manifold problems with the Chosen Sorcerer...

mikeejimbo
2009-07-23, 10:10 AM
You can't, because too many class features revolve around domains. Besides, two prepared casting classes from the same stat is a little cheesy; Chosen Sorcerer gets away with it because it's a spontaneous caster class.

I thought there was a way for an Archivist to get a domain.

Omegonthesane
2009-07-23, 11:03 AM
I thought there was a way for an Archivist to get a domain.

Pair O' Dice Lost alluded to its existence but I don't know what it is.

quick_comment
2009-07-23, 11:19 AM
A level of rainbow servant grants a domain. I think complete champion also has a feat that gives domain access.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-23, 12:01 PM
Pair O' Dice Lost alluded to its existence but I don't know what it is.

Aside from the two quick_comment mentioned, there are several other PrCs that grant a bonus domain at 1st level while progressing casting, so the archivist could grab one of those and jump into this at 6th level--in exchange for having complementary stats, he needs to wait one more level to get in, which I think is somewhat of a fair trade.

Mulletmanalive
2009-07-23, 01:01 PM
I think you've lost track of what the term 'Dead Levels' actually means. It isn't a class level that lacks a class feature besides the spellcasting of the class, it's a level that gives no noteworthy benefit that can be measured.

A level that allows access to additional spells isn't a dead level and the only reason there was any mention of the spellcasting classes in Wizard's feature on Dead Levels was so that mages didn't feel left out.

When i said 'Improved caster level' in my previous post, i wasn't talking about additional effective spellcasting levels but Caster Level, i.e. the feature that determines the effectiveness of spells, regardless of what rank of spells you're capable of casting. Basically the same thing as the feature included on the True Necromancer or a weaker version of the Practiced Spellcaster feat.

As it is, this class is unbalanced. It's just more powerful than other generic prestige classes and that isn't right. If the class makes you as good as two basic characters, there's something really wrong...
Had it come with a code of conduct and a hell of a lot more flavour, i might have been more forgiving, but it doesn't.

Milskidasith
2009-07-23, 01:18 PM
As to an earlier question the TC asked me about how to get your caster level above your character level: Bead of Karma, Ioun Stones, certain feats, etc. (Bead of Karma is especially lovely for persistent casters because it gives a huge penalty to dispelling checks on your persistent cleric buffs.)

This seems really powerful, considering you can cast a level 9 cleric spell and a level 9 wizard spell in the same round.

Omegonthesane
2009-07-23, 02:13 PM
This seems really powerful, considering you can cast a level 9 cleric spell and a level 9 wizard spell in the same round.

Yeah. Maybe I should make it so you lose 2 spellcasting levels - it was only losing 3 that really made the MT suck.

EDIT: Actually, sod that, I'm instead going to make you not have 2 levels in Secondary Casting Class before taking 15 levels of Mage Priest so you can't doublecast L9 spells pre-Epic.


Rant
Give me detail on which bits are broken or I change absolutely nothing. I've not only taken your point about dead levels but even included a joke feature about it in the class.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-23, 02:34 PM
As it is, this class is unbalanced. It's just more powerful than other generic prestige classes and that isn't right. If the class makes you as good as two basic characters, there's something really wrong...
Had it come with a code of conduct and a hell of a lot more flavour, i might have been more forgiving, but it doesn't.

1) Once again, the whole "exponential spells" issue. Getting spells 1-3 levels late merits some class features.

2) I submit for review the Iot7V, Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Rainbow Servant, etc. Being a few spell levels behind in order to pick up the opposite casting, versus all-gain-no-pain PrCs? This is nothing.

Mulletmanalive
2009-07-23, 03:11 PM
Rant


Well, have a cookie for putting me into my place.

The first ability of Arcane Theurgy [Another cookie if you change that to Mystic Theurgy, perfectly good name] is a little unreasonable as it doubles your Spontaneous Healing yield. If you're set on keeping it, limit the ability to spells of half the class level of the Arcane Priest. Perhaps sacrificing an arcane spell to enhance a healing spell [3 times the level of the sacrificed spell in extra healing] as part of a Spontaneous Healing effect? Incidentally, i'd cap the bonus at 3x the lower spell level involved in the casting but there's nothing wrong with the more powerful option.

Power Equals Power would be more reasonable it you limited it to domain spells and either specialist spells or perhaps instigating some limitation based on Deity [say Abjuration only if your deity is tied to protection, fire only for sun deities].

I'd rename [B]True Spellcasting Power's name with Skill Equals Skill as it continues a naming line. Mechanically, it's fine.

I'd also shift the Armoured Spellcaster [Medium] to the next 'Not a dead Level' slot or eliminate it entirely [doublecasting Arcane Armour and Sacred Vestment would yield far better protection]

A New Domain is a flavour issue as it doesn't tie to the god in question. I can't actually come up with a way of tying it in either. It needs something to make it fit the portfolio of the god. Divine beings would indeed probably see power as power if those powers are being used for something they specifically want to happen but are not reasonable beings in myth [nor the D&D phb either really] and would probably object to their power reserves being used as weapons in petty vendettas [unless they're gods of petty vendettas, obviously]. Maybe this could be settled with an example and some basic guidelines for the DM on the subject.

Last thing, and this is pure flavour, this needs a code of conduct above and beyond the really minor one of a cleric. The Mystic Theurge studies both to attempt to become closer to their god via studying the nature and manipulation of reality [Vaarsuvius style]. What this class does is ask their deity to basically power their arcane spells and allow energy from elsewhere to be mixed with the stuff kindly given by the deity. This would require more power and investment on the part of the deity and so they're going to want to be really careful what's done with that power.

A three point code should be enough 1] uphold the alignment of the the deity 2] Oppose the enemies of the deity's portfolio wherever they find them and 3] Defend the followers of the god even to their own death if necessary [unlikely if the mage was creative in the first place].


1) Once again, the whole "exponential spells" issue. Getting spells 1-3 levels late merits some class features.

2) I submit for review the Iot7V, Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Rainbow Servant, etc. Being a few spell levels behind in order to pick up the opposite casting, versus all-gain-no-pain PrCs? This is nothing.

Not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Double casting surely trumps the need for additional class features. I agree with the core logic but you're already able to do the stuff that two classes can.

The Iot7V doesn't have any tradeoff if you use it as a Druid power granter... it'd be a sod to get into if you use it that way too and i don't have access to the Incatatrix or Dweomerkeeper here. The Rainbow Servant is odd to me because the fluff makes it seem like its intended for Bards, then the prerequisites makes it easier to get into as a Wizard or Sorcerer. The class comes out less powerful than a Theurge once you've got the ten levels though, as you have only half as many slots [ish].

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-23, 03:45 PM
Last thing, and this is pure flavour, this needs a code of conduct above and beyond the really minor one of a cleric.

Why?

A Mage Priest could be someone who "studies both [arcane and divine magic] to attempt to become closer to their god via studying the nature and manipulation of reality" or someone who "ask[s] their deity to basically power their arcane spells and allow energy from elsewhere to be mixed with the stuff kindly given by the deity." He could also be someone who is a cleric of a deity of magic; he could be someone who receives a bit of divine inspiration from no god in particular to supplement his arcane magic (a fire sorcerer with cleric levels and the Fire and Sun domains, for instance); he could be someone attempting to take a god's power for himself and weave it into his spells, ur-priest style; he could be many other things.

Anything a deityless cleric can be, the mage priest can be as well. Balancing mechanics with roleplaying restrictions serves only to lock out character concepts unless the mechanical abilities are specifically related to the code (such as a paladin's anti-evil-associates clause relating to detect evil, smite evil, etc.). The base cleric's code works just fine.

Mulletmanalive
2009-07-23, 04:19 PM
Why?

He could also be someone who is a cleric of a deity of magic; he could be someone who receives a bit of divine inspiration from no god in particular to supplement his arcane magic (a fire sorcerer with cleric levels and the Fire and Sun domains, for instance); he could be someone attempting to take a god's power for himself and weave it into his spells, ur-priest style; he could be many other things.

Anything a deityless cleric can be, the mage priest can be as well.

This is a fundamental difference in assumptions. I assume that Divine spells are you asking for power from your deity and him/her handing out packets of it [when it's Vancian spellcasting]. Most causes simply boil down to asking sections of a pantheon if they wouldn't mind providing magic.

You seem to assume that divine magic is basically arcane magic that involves sticking a big old straw into a divine being and sucking the magical potential from it [which oddly makes me want to create a campaign setting based around the idea] as opposed to my view.

As a result of what I assume baseline divine magic is about, I'm left with the fundamental idea that godless magic is immissible with the divine [as it's pretty much stated in the PHB's magic section incidentally].

To run the comparison, to me, they're like Gas and Electric, whereas to your version [based on the last post] it's like using two different voltages of Electricity; all you need is a transformer.

If you went into this class from Ur-Priest, your point about such sticks nicely. I've never encountered a culture that worships fire without anthropomorphising it and hence making it a deity [I'm a religious scholar] so unless you were playing Dark Sun, i'm not sure how that's an issue [your sorcerer point].

Deityless cleric, is, to me, like saying a reality obeying Wizard or a Pacifist Warblade. Even the very forces of Good or Evil are represented by something [the planes themselves].

I did say that the objection was based on flavour.

Omegonthesane
2009-07-23, 05:26 PM
The first ability of Arcane Theurgy [Another cookie if you change that to Mystic Theurgy, perfectly good name] is a little unreasonable as it doubles your Spontaneous Healing yield. If you're set on keeping it, limit the ability to spells of half the class level of the Arcane Priest. Perhaps sacrificing an arcane spell to enhance a healing spell [3 times the level of the sacrificed spell in extra healing] as part of a Spontaneous Healing effect? Incidentally, i'd cap the bonus at 3x the lower spell level involved in the casting but there's nothing wrong with the more powerful option.
I see where you're coming from here, but if you haven't got anything better to do with your arcane spell slots than Cure Whatever Wounds, you're probably doing something wrong. Or you're in the kind of campaign where the DM knows you can healbot your party to an amazing extent and has upped the ante accordingly. Either way, having effectively double your healbot capacity isn't exactly unbalancing.


Power Equals Power would be more reasonable it you limited it to domain spells and either specialist spells or perhaps instigating some limitation based on Deity [say Abjuration only if your deity is tied to protection, fire only for sun deities].
Trouble with limiting Power Equals Power to domain spells is that I already do the result with Priest's Reserve. But I figured it was better to start at amazing and go down than start at suck and build up. Priest's Reserve is now going to be replaced with Power Equals Power, and I'll write it so casters other than specialist wizzards aren't screwed over.


I'd also shift the [B]Armoured Spellcaster [Medium] to the next 'Not a dead Level' slot or eliminate it entirely [doublecasting Arcane Armour and Sacred Vestment would yield far better protection]
Hm, if they can get better than medium armour by doublecasting, I don't see why medium armour has to come even later for them. :smallconfused:


A New Domain is a flavour issue as it doesn't tie to the god in question. I can't actually come up with a way of tying it in either. It needs something to make it fit the portfolio of the god. Divine beings would indeed probably see power as power if those powers are being used for something they specifically want to happen but are not reasonable beings in myth [nor the D&D phb either really] and would probably object to their power reserves being used as weapons in petty vendettas [unless they're gods of petty vendettas, obviously]. Maybe this could be settled with an example and some basic guidelines for the DM on the subject.
A New Domain is a little complex anyways. I'll just make it a bonus domain that defaults to Magic if you don't already have that domain.


Last thing, and this is pure flavour, this needs a code of conduct above and beyond the really minor one of a cleric. The Mystic Theurge studies both to attempt to become closer to their god via studying the nature and manipulation of reality [Vaarsuvius style]. What this class does is ask their deity to basically power their arcane spells and allow energy from elsewhere to be mixed with the stuff kindly given by the deity. This would require more power and investment on the part of the deity and so they're going to want to be really careful what's done with that power.

A three point code should be enough 1] uphold the alignment of the the deity 2] Oppose the enemies of the deity's portfolio wherever they find them and 3] Defend the followers of the god even to their own death if necessary [unlikely if the mage was creative in the first place].
Good idea, but then I'd have to make the consequences of breaking the Mage Priest code less harsh than those of breaking the cleric's code. How would "lose all class features, even of future levels of Mage Priest, until you atone; cannot simply cast Atonement on yourself to get around this" sound?

EDIT: Implemented some of these changes. Also, renamed "Metamagic Fuel" to "Fuel Equals Fuel" to keep with the X = X theme naming.

Mulletmanalive
2009-07-23, 07:17 PM
I see where you're coming from here, but if you haven't got anything better to do with your arcane spell slots than Cure Whatever Wounds, you're probably doing something wrong. Or you're in the kind of campaign where the DM knows you can healbot your party to an amazing extent and has upped the ante accordingly. Either way, having effectively double your healbot capacity isn't exactly unbalancing.

Point I suppose, though i've always assumed that designing a class so the GM doesn't have to respond to you was the goal...Somehow, i'm just liking the 3x the level of the arcane spell sacrificed.


Trouble with limiting Power Equals Power to domain spells is that I already do the result with Priest's Reserve. But I figured it was better to start at amazing and go down than start at suck and build up. Priest's Reserve is now going to be replaced with Power Equals Power, and I'll write it so casters other than specialist wizzards aren't screwed over.

Good call.


Hm, if they can get better than medium armour by doublecasting, I don't see why medium armour has to come even later for them. :smallconfused:

True enough.


A New Domain is a little complex anyways. I'll just make it a bonus domain that defaults to Magic if you don't already have that domain.

Oooo, you could call the feature Knowledge equals Knowledge... Magic Domain works though, as would the Force domain.


Good idea, but then I'd have to make the consequences of breaking the Mage Priest code less harsh than those of breaking the cleric's code. How would "lose all class features, even of future levels of Mage Priest, until you atone; cannot simply cast Atonement on yourself to get around this" sound?

EDIT: Implemented some of these changes. Also, renamed "Metamagic Fuel" to "Fuel Equals Fuel" to keep with the X = X theme naming.

That would be a solid limitation. If memory serves, the Atonement spell slaps you with a quest each time so it wouldn't be too extreme to simply allow the use of it.

Now all we need is the inevitable example character dedicated to Vecna: we all know he's the god who's going to say 'yes' to this fastest

Arbitrarity
2009-07-23, 08:29 PM
I dunno. Mystic Theurge is considered weak "without early entry shennanigans", which this class brings in spades. Wizard4/Cleric1/Mage Priest 15, for example. A single level delayed, for the eventual loss of 1 9'th level slot, for some class features, and 16'th level cleric casting? I think that's imbalanced. The problem is, forcing some sort of equality.

Perhaps we could use the Ultimate Magus method, and include 1 or 2 levels of slowed progression on 1 side. Preferably on levels with really good abilities :smallbiggrin:

Just 1 such level would still allow double 9'th level spells in the unspecialized 3/2 case, while 2 would allow 9'th level spells on 1 side, but not the other.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-23, 10:06 PM
This is a fundamental difference in assumptions. I assume that Divine spells are you asking for power from your deity and him/her handing out packets of it [when it's Vancian spellcasting]. Most causes simply boil down to asking sections of a pantheon if they wouldn't mind providing magic.

You seem to assume that divine magic is basically arcane magic that involves sticking a big old straw into a divine being and sucking the magical potential from it [which oddly makes me want to create a campaign setting based around the idea] as opposed to my view.

I'm not assuming anything; that's the point. The default flavor has it that you either serve a god as a generic clergy member or serve a non-deific source of divine power such as a philosophy, and the code of conduct supports that. You're saying that because the mage priest is trying to use arcane magic to get closer to his god, he should be subject to a stricter code of conduct; however, (A) that's not the default fluff of either the mystic theurge or the mage priest and (B) there's no reason for his code to be more restrictive, because there are many circumstances where the flavor for the cleric and the mage-priest are the same.

A common theme for an MT character is that the character is combining arcane and divine magic because he serves a god of magic; if this is the case, why would such a cleric who goes into mage priest to exemplify his god be subject to a more restrictive code than any other clerics of the patron of arcane magic?
A common theme for clerics who don't want to be part of an official church is to believe they're practising witchcraft or sorcery or whatever but are actually receiving power from a god; if this is the case, why would such a cleric who goes into mage priest to get more of a wizard-y feel be subject to a more restrictive code than...well, than other deityless clerics?
Characters who want to worship a demon lord or other non-deity from level 1 often start as a deityless cleric and fluff it as believing they're receiving power from their patron but actually receive power from some divine power (such as the Yeenoghu situation); if this is the case, why would such a cleric who goes into mage priest to better serve their patron to a more restrictive code when they are worshiping their patron and aren't even following the code of the deity granting their spells?

You can't make any assumptions about how a class is going to be flavored or played, and institute roleplaying restrictions thereby, unless the class itself gives some mechanical backing to that. You can assume a paladin will be against evil because he can detect and smite evil; an anti-evil code works there. You can assume a druid will venerate nature because he has nature-related spells and class features; a pro-nature code works there. You can't assume a mage priest will worship a god because there is an option for clerics who follow a philosophy or other source of divine power; a more restrictive code doesn't work there.

Jergmo
2009-07-23, 11:04 PM
Eh, Mystic Theurges aren't underpowered. They're just like Bards on steroids, tossing out Mass (Insert Buff Here) instead of songs.

Mulletmanalive
2009-07-24, 11:56 AM
Dice, I've just got a different philosophy. I've always been prone to design things to have strong flavours intrinsic to the basic model and if someone wants to alter it, I do the GM thing.

In the same way that you don't see a need for a code of conduct as it gets in the way of fire worshipers, i don't see what stops the code from becoming a need to tread softly lest your power stores get unstable [as hybrid power sources have a tendency to in real life].

Generic prestige classes should be weaker than ones with limitations and as i didn't see any weaknesses or hear any complaints about the Theurge when i've had it in play, my instant reaction was to apply flavour limits to balance the increased power, if only slightly.

Disagree if you like but Omegon didn't.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-24, 01:34 PM
Generic prestige classes should be weaker than ones with limitations and as i didn't see any weaknesses or hear any complaints about the Theurge when i've had it in play, my instant reaction was to apply flavour limits to balance the increased power, if only slightly.

This here is really the source of my disagreement. I dislike flavor and mechanics that don't support each other: If you've hunted demons for a living for all your life but have abilities that make you good at fighting dragons, there's a break in verisimilitude there; likewise, if you have a code requiring you to kill evil things, you'd better have something mechanical to back that up.

However, what I dislike more is the notion that you can and/or should balance flavor elements with mechanical elements or vice-versa. The original paladin was LG with a code of conduct because it was flat-out superior to the fighter mechanically--they basically made it a chivalrous knight type so you couldn't just get drunk with power and kill everything; this led to problems with DMs assuming that because the RP restrictions were the only balance to the power gained, they should balance slight breaches in the RP restrictions with mechanical repercussions (i.e., causing them to fall at the drop of a hat). Likewise, many people originally hated playing the cleric, because you were forced into the kindly-old-friar healbot role RP wise (since an offensive cleric wouldn't have the all-important heal spells), so the designers upped the cleric's mechanical power level to compensate for a perceived RP restriction.

This notion of balancing flavor with mechanics led almost completely in and of itself to the class imbalance in 3e--the cleric was changed to make it even better mechanically while removing the reason for powering it up (the fact that not all clerics got healing spells) and thought that they could still balance everything with a little blurb on the cleric's code of conduct; the paladin was toned down a bit and its code was toned down to compensate...but they didn't realize that most of the power they had was based on the fighter's superiority in prior editions and so kept a code that prevented them from multiclassing or doing other things to make them competent warriors again.

When it comes to the mage priest in particular, my objection to adding a code of conduct or other RP restriction is twofold. First, the cleric issue I've been harping on--you can't assume that a cleric will have a particular code of conduct coming into the class, because not all of them worship gods, so introducing one makes no sense. Second, there's no reason to have one except to try to somehow balance a perceived mechanical problem--if the divine caster had a code already, adding arcane magic isn't going to change that, and if he didn't have a code already (such as if he's another divine caster who picks up a domain somewhere) then adding an additional code because of adding arcane magic makes no sense.

Designing classes with strong flavor is good in one of two cases: Base classes, which define a character's background and possibly his entire career, and organization PrCs that have a built-in RP background. In those cases, however, you have mechanics to back them up--the paladin smites, the monk has lawful fists, the mage of the arcane order has dues to pay, the spellguard of Silverymoon has to guard. There's nothing in an arcane/divine hybrid PrC to suggest the former (it doesn't get god- or domain-specific abilities except those specifically related to translating domains to arcane and back) or the latter (there's no Grand High Council of Mage-Priests to enforce any particular behavior).

[/rant]

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-24, 01:42 PM
But it breaks every single PrC design principle WotC has set. No one enters a PrC before level 6.

Master Specialist. Wizard 3 qualifies without any work on your part.

Dante & Vergil
2009-08-04, 07:10 PM
Omegonthesane, you should do more duel-progression prestige classes. Seriously, I would love to see more classes like this.