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Ahab
2009-07-22, 04:20 PM
One of my players recently created a thievish character who enjoys causing trouble at the expense of the more morally upright characters. Now, when he wants to do something behind the other players' back, such as stealing the paladin's holy symbol, we've found it hard to keep his secret when the paladin's player can SEE him whispering to me and then watches make SoH/Spot checks.

We've tried index cards, same problem.

The players will just go, "I check my inventory" and discover what happened. They never really get mad at him because he is harmless, but I'd really like to be able to pull off some secrecy. Any suggestions?

PLUN
2009-07-22, 04:28 PM
Sounds more like a metagame problem to me. While 'oh, the party jerks at his antics again, everyone check your pockets' is a fun and harmless example, the players shouldn't be doing that - they're missing out on some RP opportunities. In the event of wanting some real inter party espionage, you might want to instigate the note passing. Just ask any party member what they're doing, tell them they see some note nestled away, anything. Make hidden spot checks for them. Get the distrust a brewin.

penbed400
2009-07-22, 04:39 PM
Yea sometimes the RP is a lot more fun. One of the funniest moments I've had in a campaign before was when my rogue stole from the party wizard succesfully, he only had 50 gold but I managed to steal it all. So later that day he tried to buy something and noticed that his money was gone. He immediately stormed over to the bar I was hanging out in buying beer with his money and demanded:

Wizard: "I need my money back now."

Me without thinking: "What for?"....."Crap!"

I had to give the money back and the paladin kept an eye on me from then on. But it was lots of fun anyways, no clue how to help your problem but this thread reminded me of that. Thanks for the nostalgia

kjones
2009-07-22, 04:43 PM
I read the title of this thread and thought of something completely different.

Just so you know.

kc0bbq
2009-07-22, 05:06 PM
And the paladin didn't just turn you into the authorities when you took his holy symbol? Or if Miko-typed, stabbed you in the eye while pontificating?

herrhauptmann
2009-07-22, 05:09 PM
The sneaky player should start handing out blank notes to you.

Maybe spend a minute writing it out, and when he hands it off, all the card says is:
"This is a decoy note. Just grin and ignore it." Followed by a listing of 15 random items . apples, chair, bannanas, grapes, soda, comic book, etc. It might be too obvious if he just writes 'blah' 15 times in a row. People pick up on patterns like that.

This way, the other party members can metagame all they like, but they'll still get paranoid when they keep checking their stuff, and nothing has gone missing.


As a DM, I think I'd actually go along with this. To the point of looking at each individual player like I'm assigning numbers, then rolling a d6 to determine who gets affected/targeted. Worse, roll a d6, then a d20 and write something in your notes.

Tengu_temp
2009-07-22, 05:16 PM
And the paladin didn't just turn you into the authorities when you took his holy symbol? Or if Miko-typed, stabbed you in the eye while pontificating?

Not all paladins are Lawful Stupid. If the rogue is harmless and only plays pranks, why react in such a way? Now, if what he did actually harmed the other partymembers, or gave then trouble, that'd be a different matter whatsoever...

And I second the blank notes idea. It works very well.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-22, 05:20 PM
Not all paladins are Lawful Stupid. If the rogue is harmless and only plays pranks, why react in such a way? Now, if what he did actually harmed the other partymembers, or gave then trouble, that'd be a different matter whatsoever...

And I second the blank notes idea. It works very well.

Besides, who keeps their Holy Symbol in a state where it can be easily stolen? Keeping your important possessions secure is just common sense. Anything that is small enough to be slight-of-handed, should probably chained to your person and/or locked at all times.

Guancyto
2009-07-22, 05:26 PM
Besides, who keeps their Holy Symbol in a state where it can be easily stolen? Keeping your important possessions secure is just common sense. Anything that is small enough to be slight-of-handed, should probably chained to your person and/or locked at all times.

Probably a low-level Paladin who doesn't actually need it for anything but likes to keep it around. :smallwink:

Blank cards are only the beginning. Make sure to include beneficial actions on your notecards, too.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-22, 05:29 PM
Probably a low-level Paladin who doesn't actually need it for anything but likes to keep it around. :smallwink:


Maybe. It's good practice though. If you can't even bothered to keep a symbol of your faith properly secured, what hope do your other possessions have? You're just begging to come back with no possessions after one 5-minute trip through the rough part of town.

Guancyto
2009-07-22, 05:35 PM
Heh, might make a good trick if you've gotten on the rogue's good side.

Party Member: "My priceless keepsake, it's gone!"
Rogue: *hands it over* "Keep it more secure next time, x y and z will help."

EleventhHour
2009-07-22, 05:39 PM
Besides, who keeps their Holy Symbol in a state where it can be easily stolen? Keeping your important possessions secure is just common sense. Anything that is small enough to be slight-of-handed, should probably chained to your person and/or locked at all times.

I've already found the two excellent places to hide it, one mechanically, the other is more of an RP.

1.) Mechanical ; Smelted to the chest of my plate!
2.) RP : on a necklace, under my clothes when not needed. :smallwink:

Skorj
2009-07-22, 05:39 PM
We always just made the party thief responsible for all party treasure. Any treasure we had in our inventory, he had better be able to produce it (of course, the cleric kept the books). The thief was free to "steal" anything he wanted to volunteer to carry, for all the good it would do him. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: passing notes is a surefire way to derail a game. It should be forbidden except in games like Paranoia (or some Call of Cthulhu games) where that sort of nonsense is the point of the game. In that case, ask for a note from every player every 20 minutes, write something on each note, and return it (players may not show the returned notes to each other).

jmbrown
2009-07-22, 05:43 PM
The sneaky player should start handing out blank notes to you.

Maybe spend a minute writing it out, and when he hands it off, all the card says is:
"This is a decoy note. Just grin and ignore it." Followed by a listing of 15 random items . apples, chair, bannanas, grapes, soda, comic book, etc. It might be too obvious if he just writes 'blah' 15 times in a row. People pick up on patterns like that.

This way, the other party members can metagame all they like, but they'll still get paranoid when they keep checking their stuff, and nothing has gone missing.


As a DM, I think I'd actually go along with this. To the point of looking at each individual player like I'm assigning numbers, then rolling a d6 to determine who gets affected/targeted. Worse, roll a d6, then a d20 and write something in your notes.

I like these ideas as doing stuff in secret at the table is more difficult than online.

Also, the thief character doesn't have to steal now. He could pass a note saying "I'm going to take this guys stuff in 5 minutes." After the paladin checks his pockets and realizes everything is there he'll let his guard down for when the actual thieving occurs.

kc0bbq
2009-07-22, 05:45 PM
Not all paladins are Lawful Stupid. It's not lawful stupid to boot someone when they start stealing from the party. Unless they're irreplacable for some reason, after a while you'd just get rid of someone like that. Lawful stupid would be to kill them for it.

Kylarra
2009-07-22, 05:54 PM
It's not lawful stupid to boot someone when they start stealing from the party. Unless they're irreplacable for some reason, after a while you'd just get rid of someone like that. Lawful stupid would be to kill them for it.Yeah I'm somewhat in agreement with this. Why journey with someone who is always stealing from you for their amusement?


:belkar:: Has anyone seen my healing potion?
:haley::*whistles*
:belkar::*dies*

Tengu_temp
2009-07-22, 05:59 PM
It's not lawful stupid to boot someone when they start stealing from the party. Unless they're irreplacable for some reason, after a while you'd just get rid of someone like that. Lawful stupid would be to kill them for it.

I agree with that, but from the original post I got the impression the thief is not stealing here in malice, for personal gain or similar reasons - he's just playing harmless tricks at the others, and returns the trinkets he stole once they find out. There might be a slippery slope leading from such behaviour to actual inter-party stealing, but in itself it's harmless.

ericgrau
2009-07-22, 07:30 PM
E-mails and between game conversations. Consider some sort of pre-arranged discreet signal. Pretty soon his party will be paranoid every time he scratches an itch :smallbiggrin:.

That or just make note passing more common so they don't notice it as much. Send the PCs a lot of notes about what they're particular character knows about a situation and let them roleplay the relaying to others rather than saying "Ok, I tell that to everyone else." Even when it isn't secret information. Maybe combat just started and they can only say so much within 6 seconds. Or just for the sake of practicing more note-passing. I dunno, figure it out.

B0nd07
2009-07-22, 07:41 PM
I did something similar with my first rogue. A short time after sovereign glue-ing the party paladin's tankard to his breast-plate, I successfully pick-pocketed him. Being the meta-gamer he is, he immediately went into interrogation mode. Fortunately, I passed my bluff checks. :smallbiggrin: He later became quite popular at the local thieves guild.

I'm pretty sure I used notes to the DM with what I was doing.

Random832
2009-07-22, 09:36 PM
Set up a dead drop in the restroom or kitchen.

If everyone has laptops, say you found this cool character sheet manager and everyone plays with laptops (or at least an excuse for the thief and the DM to do so)

John Campbell
2009-07-22, 09:53 PM
The way I see it, there's three steps here:

1. Point out to the thief that stealing from the people who have his back in a fight is not a particularly bright idea. Note that if the rest of the group decides to attack him, or hang him out to dry - or, seeing as how there's a paladin in the group, just hand him over to the authorities - he's got no room to complain, because he started it.

2. Tell the rest of the group to stop frickin' metagaming. They should not be acting on things that their character has no way of knowing. You are within your rights as DM to say, "No, you don't do that, because it's obviously motivated by OOC knowledge that your character does not and cannot have"... at least in cases of such blatant metagaming as reacting to a passed note and failed Spot check with, "I check my inventory." Though you should only deploy that kind of heavy-handing DMing sparingly, as a last resort.

3. Make it more difficult to metagame even unwittingly. Encourage note-passing by everyone, and do it yourself. Ask for skill checks at random for any reason or none. (Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive are the best candidates for this, though others like Survival or random Knowledges can be good, too.) Periodically roll dice for no reason at all, look at them, possibly ask someone what one of their modifiers is, go, "Hmm," and then carry on with what you were doing.

sombrastewart
2009-07-22, 10:51 PM
We're talking pranks here, right? I mean, if for no other reason than to keep in practice, right?

Have him start doing Sleight of Hands to add things to other players inventories. Doesn't have to be valuable, just reinforces the idea that the rogue is doing this either as a joke or to keep his skills up.

I do agree with this metagaming condemnation, though.

quick_comment
2009-07-22, 10:52 PM
3. Make it more difficult to metagame even unwittingly. Encourage note-passing by everyone, and do it yourself. Ask for skill checks at random for any reason or none. (Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive are the best candidates for this, though others like Survival or random Knowledges can be good, too.) Periodically roll dice for no reason at all, look at them, possibly ask someone what one of their modifiers is, go, "Hmm," and then carry on with what you were doing.

This is the best way to terrify your players. Just roll some dice, ask what order the party is marching in and then ask one of them what his will save modifier is.

If you really want to make it interesting, ask nonchalantly if he has any particular defenses against mindrape or domination.

Draz74
2009-07-22, 10:54 PM
Just to echo the consensus -- one of the funniest moments I've ever had in D&D was when the newcomer Rogue thief character picked the big drunk Fighter's pocket ... but the Fighter noticed, and his response was to retaliate in kind. He had 1 rank in Sleight of Hand, but he rolled a natural 20 on his SoH check and the Rogue bombed his Spot check. The Fighter ended up with his own money back and more. When the Rogue eventually realized what had happened, a great friendship was struck up between the two characters.

... if you can call an alliance a "friendship" when it's got such large, healthy levels of mistrust in it. :smallwink:

Saph
2009-07-22, 11:11 PM
1. Point out to the thief that stealing from the people who have his back in a fight is not a particularly bright idea.

Yeah, this is a big one. Minor pranks are one thing, but not everyone finds getting their stuff stolen amusing. Unless you're really sure that they'll take it as a joke, it's not conductive to long-term survival.

erikun
2009-07-22, 11:36 PM
Since it didn't seem to be mentioned: how do the other players feel about this? Are they okay with one party member taking stuff from another, or do they feel this bothersome and annoying?

From the fact that they all check their inventory after the DM-rogue whispering, I'd say it's the latter.

Why do so when it's clearly not what the players want? :smallconfused: Unless you started off the game with "I expect a lot of intrigue, distrust, and possible party infighting" it may not be what the party was expecting. Unlike "real life", the party doesn't get a real choice with who they work with. They may kill Bob the Theif, only to recruit Joe the Theif under rather flimsy RP choices. (Or can the party veto incoming members, under the decision that they would never accept them within RP guidelines?)

If the party decided to kill off Bob the Theif every time he started talking to the DM, would it be acceptable at the table?

Anyways, there are a number of solutions already if you want the theif to be successful; I don't really have any new ones to add.

PLUN
2009-07-23, 01:12 PM
Well, as I said, the metagame element means its driving into 'running gag' country. It paints to me an 'oh, Bob!', almost sitcom like event where everyone knows who did it, because they're buddies. If they used that metagame element to 'premptive strike' and attack the thief because of something their characters don't know for certain, I can almost guarantee you someone is going to get upset. It'll probably be the DM.

Personally, i don't approve, because most characters don't have a real REASON for it. Chaotic stupid. Which, admittedly in a particular light hearted genre is a darn fine alignment to be. When it's greed, that's worse. Greedy? Adventurers a good job. However we're coworkers, and in 9 parties out of 10 we'll be coworkers who try hard to evenly split the gains of our labour. We risk our lives and gain that privalge. The evil party members can manage this - so can a thief. You don't want that system? Leave. You probably lack a good motivation to actually BE in the party other than to rob them, and are a huge pain best suited as an NPC.

Maybe they have a reason. Maybe they owe a lot of money. Now i'm po'd, but it's because they didn't tell me. Or they valued their own skin or their brothers skin or whatever over mine. What they do when caught is now very, very important. See, now i'm annoyed in character, and we are really getting somewhere. As a player, I could argue this is a very good place to be when i'm in the mood for betrayal and conflict. I'm a lot more receptive to a PC thief who has motives beyond 'for the lulz' or 'because I want it'.

jmbrown
2009-07-23, 01:18 PM
Well, as I said, the metagame element means its driving into 'running gag' country. It paints to me an 'oh, Bob!', almost sitcom like event where everyone knows who did it, because they're buddies. If they used that metagame element to 'premptive strike' and attack the thief because of something their characters don't know for certain, I can almost guarantee you someone is going to get upset. It'll probably be the DM.

Personally, i don't approve, because most characters don't have a real REASON for it. Chaotic stupid. Which, admittedly in a particular light hearted genre is a darn fine alignment to be. When it's greed, that's worse. Greedy? Adventurers a good job. However we're coworkers, and in 9 parties out of 10 we'll be coworkers who try hard to evenly split the gains of our labour. We risk our lives and gain that privalge. The evil party members can manage this - so can a thief. You don't want that system? Leave. You probably lack a good motivation to actually BE in the party other than to rob them, and are a huge pain best suited as an NPC.

Maybe they have a reason. Maybe they owe a lot of money. Now i'm po'd, but it's because they didn't tell me. Or they valued their own skin or their brothers skin or whatever over mine. What they do when caught is now very, very important. See, now i'm annoyed in character, and we are really getting somewhere. As a player, I could argue this is a very good place to be when i'm in the mood for betrayal and conflict. I'm a lot more receptive to a PC thief who has motives beyond 'for the lulz' or 'because I want it'.

But it's not chaotic stupid because, from what the DM is describing, it's completely harmless.

Until the Paladin can turn undead and cast spells what use (in game terms) does he need his holy symbol for? Realistically I'd be pretty annoyed if someone kept yanking a trinket of mine but it's not causing any harm so the most I'd do is say "Hey, please stop."

This is different if the thief was snatching important items like healing potions or a weapon. When you're in the thick of combat and you reach for your sword but OOPS sword not there then it dives into malicious territory.

In short, someone who puts mud in your helmet or steals your socks is completely harmless. Annoying but harmless. Someone who snatches your gold or weapons should be dealt with immediately.

Kylarra
2009-07-23, 01:21 PM
Given that we don't know the level of the chars, the paladin could be able to cast spells/turn undead, so it changes from "harmless" right there. :smalltongue:

Civil War Man
2009-07-23, 01:52 PM
3. Make it more difficult to metagame even unwittingly. Encourage note-passing by everyone, and do it yourself. Ask for skill checks at random for any reason or none. (Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive are the best candidates for this, though others like Survival or random Knowledges can be good, too.) Periodically roll dice for no reason at all, look at them, possibly ask someone what one of their modifiers is, go, "Hmm," and then carry on with what you were doing.

I want to second this point as well. I actually participated in a D&D game where it was almost a competition over who could be the biggest magnificent bastard. Strangely enough, the game ran incredibly smoothly with almost no interparty conflict. Everyone had their own scheme, and either did not care about the schemes of the other party members or did not interfere so no one would have reason to interfere in their schemes.

So we had a situation where the city-hating druid did not care about the guild rogue altering the conditions of a vital trade contract. The rogue in turn enlisted the aid of his guild in order to aid the elf ranger in her quest to find her long lost brother, and so the elf did not rat out the human psion who was working with the aforementioned rogue to assassinate the thieves' guild leadership so the two of them could take over. It really was a beautiful thing.

Riffington
2009-07-23, 01:54 PM
EDIT: passing notes is a surefire way to derail a game. It should be forbidden except in games like Paranoia (or some Call of Cthulhu games) where that sort of nonsense is the point of the game.

I disagree entirely. The thing that distinguishes a roleplaying game from a wargame is that you all have real personalities and real motivations. The corollary to that is that you don't ever really know what your "friends" are doing - and that trust should be earned rather than assumed. Most roleplaying games tend to suffer from an excess of trust: ("You meet a scruffy guy in a bar, whose pockets are bulging with gold, and whose only visible means of support is a stiletto sticking out of his boot". "Ah, it's Jim's character. Let me put my life in his hands!") Passing notes helps reduce this ridiculous "everything's above the table, so we all know one another's motives" business. It should be incorporated into most RPGs.

hewhosaysfish
2009-07-23, 03:25 PM
If another player in a game I was in were to (openly and without all that note-passing) fill my characters helmet with mud or replace some not-combat-essential item with a rubber chicken then I would not metagame. I would play along, act like I didn't know anything and in due course I would put my helmet on with a *SPLAT!*
And it would be funny.

If another player in a game I was in (whose character had previously filled my helmet with mud and replaced my wand of Comprehend Languages with a rubber chicken) were to start passing notes to the GM with a mischevious grim on their face then I would not metagame. I would play along, act like I didn't know anything and I would just wait for the *SPLAT!*
And it would be even funnier because of the tension and anticipation leading up to it.

If another player in a game I was in (without any sort of precendent) were to start passing notes to the GM and making Sleight of Hand checks and Move Silently checks and I was having to make Spot checks... then I may or may not metagame. It would depend on how well I knew the player in question (and the GM).

If I knew them well, then I would let it slide. Maybe he's planning a prank; sit back and wait for the splat. Maybe he's pursuing some side-quest, some personal objective; sit back and wait for it to get tangled into the main plot-line and come out into the open (or, failing that, wait until the end of the campaign and ask "So what was all that cloak-and-dagger stuff about anyway?")

If tdidn't really them, though, I would stop and ask myself: Have I failed to understand the type of campaign and the type of group dynamic that everyone? Does everyone around the table but me think that the stereotypical "Steally McSteallypants" rogue is OK? Should I have been acting more paranoid?

Skorj
2009-07-23, 03:36 PM
I disagree entirely. The thing that distinguishes a roleplaying game from a wargame is that you all have real personalities and real motivations. The corollary to that is that you don't ever really know what your "friends" are doing - and that trust should be earned rather than assumed. Most roleplaying games tend to suffer from an excess of trust: ("You meet a scruffy guy in a bar, whose pockets are bulging with gold, and whose only visible means of support is a stiletto sticking out of his boot". "Ah, it's Jim's character. Let me put my life in his hands!") Passing notes helps reduce this ridiculous "everything's above the table, so we all know one another's motives" business. It should be incorporated into most RPGs.

I have always felt that there are two kinds of campaigns - those that need monsters to fight, and those that don't. You clearly prefer the latter. That's fine, but in my experience as soon as the note passing BS starts, the actual adventure stops, often permanently. Of course, there are games like Paranoia where killing each other off is the actual adventure, and IMO that makes for a much more fun game if you're going to fight one another instead of the monsters.

If you want to enjoy the adventure, however (which is just one way to play), you need that trust. Players need to be working out how they can RP within their characters to work with one another and grab plot hooks, not finding excuses not to.

Mark Hall
2009-07-23, 03:40 PM
1) Sit the thief player next to you to facilitate passing notes.

2) Have them pre-write notes, so they don't have to scribble them.

3) Instead of rolling the thief checks at the time, randomly generate about 40 different results, and just use them in order, with the appropriate bonuses. Maybe make each one be two or more columns... one for his thieving check, and one (or more) for relevant spot checks. Cackling with glee when he hits the result that gives him a 1 and the other guy a 20 is optional.

4) For real fun, go with a code phrase or signal. Instead of passing a note, have him ask you for a pen, or to see the time, or something like that. Maybe when he scratches his right ear with his left hand. If you use miniatures, have one miniature be the one that represents his thieving status... whenever he lays it facedown, he tries to pickpocket the person it's pointed towards (or maybe the person to that one's left). He can't use this to say "I'm stealing the Paladin's holy symbol", but he can create a little bit of chaos, and the other players will take a bit to catch on.

Riffington
2009-07-23, 04:53 PM
I have always felt that there are two kinds of campaigns - those that need monsters to fight, and those that don't. You clearly prefer the latter. That's fine, but in my experience as soon as the note passing BS starts, the actual adventure stops, often permanently. Of course, there are games like Paranoia where killing each other off is the actual adventure, and IMO that makes for a much more fun game if you're going to fight one another instead of the monsters.

If you want to enjoy the adventure, however (which is just one way to play), you need that trust. Players need to be working out how they can RP within their characters to work with one another and grab plot hooks, not finding excuses not to.

Maybe your games have been either/or, mine haven't. I've recently played a game where we're doing a dungeon crawl, trust each other to some extent, and are all fighting the Drow together... but meanwhile I am passing notes to/from the Demon Knight of Lies so the paladin doesn't find out. Our rogue is passing notes that we assume relate to secret communications with the Church of Mystra. And our druid uses a secret language that none of the rest of us know. Didn't derail the game, just added some richness and plot to it. Similarly with other games I've played.

Maybe your friends are just more petty/vindictive than mine?

/note-passing isn't BS.

KIDS
2009-07-23, 04:58 PM
I usually pass blank notes just to freak out people who think I'm planning to murder them or something, though my intent is always perfectly innocent. For more 'serious' things, it seems like an ok practice, but I have to admit that most of my experiences with 'secret plotter' players have been really bad.

warrl
2009-07-23, 05:35 PM
My daughter once was in a game where the other members of the party routinely angered, annoyed, and harassed her character.

She did NOT casually steal from other party members, even though she was a rogue.

At the end of the campaign they had completed all the objectives the DM had planned for, and several more side things that weren't in his plans. The party was being hauled off to prison for *causing* all the mayhem that they had in fact put a stop to, and the rogue was collecting a large reward for stopping them and saving the king from them.

Notes to the DM were essential in this.

But some of them were really about her plans. And others... well...

Ignore this note.

Hide a grin.

Roll a D20, think a minute, and minutely shake your head no.

Scribble a reply and pass this note back.

And so on.

YES, the other players were nervous about the note-passing. But nothing ever happened as a result of the notes... at least, not any time soon.

Skorj
2009-07-23, 06:23 PM
Maybe your games have been either/or, mine haven't. I've recently played a game where we're doing a dungeon crawl, trust each other to some extent, and are all fighting the Drow together... but meanwhile I am passing notes to/from the Demon Knight of Lies so the paladin doesn't find out. Our rogue is passing notes that we assume relate to secret communications with the Church of Mystra. And our druid uses a secret language that none of the rest of us know. Didn't derail the game, just added some richness and plot to it. Similarly with other games I've played.

Maybe your friends are just more petty/vindictive than mine?

/note-passing isn't BS.


Ahh, I see where you're coming from (I think) - you're not talking about attacking/pranking/sabotaging other players, you're talking about just doing normal adventuring stuff the others wouldn't approve of IC (but wouldn't be annoyed by OOC)? That's all totally cool, we just never bother to do anything like that in secret (being all veteran gamers, the meta-gaming is firmly under control). However, since we all know that attacking/pranking/sabotaging other players will eventualy lead to death, it tends to escalate form "mud in helmet" to "backstab, burn the body, scatter the ashes" in about 15 nanoseconds. Hey, we all know it's going to come down to that, so we'll just skip to the final confrontation so we can get on with the adventure. :smallsmile:

But then, most groups probably don't need an explicit, written "you can't design a new character who's sole purpose is to mess with another player's current character" rule, so maybe we get unusually brutal with inter-party conflict. We didn't arrive at the "the thief is responsible for all party treasure, but the cleric keeps the books" principle by accident.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-23, 09:59 PM
I've already found the two excellent places to hide it, one mechanically, the other is more of an RP.

1.) Mechanical ; Smelted to the chest of my plate!
2.) RP : on a necklace, under my clothes when not needed. :smallwink:

1) Good idea.
2) It is very, very easy to remove necklaces.

Riffington
2009-07-23, 10:15 PM
Ahh, I see where you're coming from (I think) - you're not talking about attacking/pranking/sabotaging other players, you're talking about just doing normal adventuring stuff the others wouldn't approve of IC (but wouldn't be annoyed by OOC)?
Well, that can include mild sabotage - for example, ensuring another character didn't get his hands on a certain artifact because the people he works for would do bad things with it. It's rarely an issue OOC, because OOC - we're just playing a game.
But it's harder to do some of that above the table. If my Sending fails, I'll be curious to find out why. If I know OOC that it's due to another player's machinations, I might respond differently. After all, it's hard not to metagame when you are solving a puzzle that you know the answer to OOC.



That's all totally cool, we just never bother to do anything like that in secret (being all veteran gamers, the meta-gaming is firmly under control). However, since we all know that attacking/pranking/sabotaging other players will eventualy lead to death, it tends to escalate form "mud in helmet" to "backstab, burn the body, scatter the ashes" in about 15 nanoseconds. Hey, we all know it's going to come down to that, so we'll just skip to the final confrontation so we can get on with the adventure. :smallsmile:

Did you just go from "metagaming is firmly under control" to "we kill each other for metagame reasons"?
:smalltongue:

Mr.Moron
2009-07-23, 10:32 PM
2) It is very, very easy to remove necklaces.

This may be true. But the extensive search check required to locate it when it's tucked in a hidden pocket in your clothes, under your protective gear just might tip you off the fact someone is poking around.

To to mention""Necklace" Can mean: "Length of heavy chain that has been locked in such as way that the loop is now to small to get back over my head without removing the lock. The lock has an arcane lock spell on it. Oh, and one more thing: I had glyph of warding cast on it so attempting to remove it summons a Celestial Bison that even if you're too strong for it to gore will certainly make what is going on very clear".

Okay that's overkill. It's just that if you don't want a Mr.Sticky-Fingers-McRogue lifting something off you it is fairly simple to make it very hard for him. With a little help from the party casters or just yourself if you're a caster.