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The Bushranger
2009-07-23, 11:46 AM
I've been expecting to be underwhelmed, even disgusted, by the upcoming third Stargate series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Universe), the plot sounding suspisicoulsy "Voyager-ish". And my opinions of that... :smallannoyed:

Having watched SciFi's trailers (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stargate+universe+official+tr ailer&search_type=&aq=1&oq=Stargate+Universe)...

...I'm still expecting to be underwhelmed and disgusted.
Except now, instead of "Stargate Voyager", I'm thinking "Stargate Galactica".


But what do you think?

lisiecki
2009-07-23, 11:56 AM
I've been expecting to be underwhelmed, even disgusted, by the upcoming third Stargate series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Universe), the plot sounding suspisicoulsy "Voyager-ish". And my opinions of that... :smallannoyed:

Having watched SciFi's trailers (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stargate+universe+official+tr ailer&search_type=&aq=1&oq=Stargate+Universe)...

...I'm still expecting to be underwhelmed and disgusted.
Except now, instead of "Stargate Voyager", I'm thinking "Stargate Galactica".


But what do you think?

You know I have only seen the movie, and parts of the first seasion of the first stargate TV show.

Despite people I know whos opinions i respect saying its good stuff, and a large chunk of it being free on Hulu.

I think im acually going to give it a chance today (SG1 that is)

Muz
2009-07-23, 12:20 PM
Stargate Galactica? *shudders* Stargate's appeal is that it ISN'T trying to be "darker and edgier." It'd be like dipping a chocolate chip cookie in jalapeno cheese dip.*


*Okay, so I've actually done this and it tastes pretty good, but given most people's reaction when I tell them that combination, I figure it's an apt analogy for the point I'm trying to get across. :smallwink:

Szilard
2009-07-23, 12:47 PM
a large chunk of it being free on Hulu.

Seasons 1-5. I'm almost done with the fifth season.:smallbiggrin:

Muz
2009-07-23, 12:49 PM
I think im acually going to give it a chance today (SG1 that is)

Be aware that it's a little hit-and-miss, especially in the earlier seasons.

Icewalker
2009-07-23, 12:52 PM
Didn't know that much of it was available online. Good show, SG-1. From what I understand mostly via my friends and the few episodes I've seen, Atlantis is quite good as well, although I think I prefer SG-1. A third series is probably a terrible idea, considering how these things go, but hey, maybe it'll be good.

Jera
2009-07-23, 12:57 PM
Seasons 1-5. I'm almost done with the fifth season.:smallbiggrin:


Please stop watching at the end of season eight, just pretend seasons 9 and 10 don't exist. Trust me, you will enjoy the show more pretending that those seasons are non-existant.

lisiecki
2009-07-23, 01:00 PM
Be aware that it's a little hit-and-miss, especially in the earlier seasons.

I do kinda remember that.

Honestly most of the reasion that I didnt watch it was born from the fact that Stargate exists, while I-Man was cancled

(Although, in a world where Bobby Hobbes exists, what credible threat is there, the man is a god)

Muz
2009-07-23, 01:05 PM
Please stop watching at the end of season eight, just pretend seasons 9 and 10 don't exist. Trust me, you will enjoy the show more pretending that those seasons are non-existant.

Or do keep watching and make up your own mind, as opinions vary. Seasons 9 and 10 are different, certainly, but still good. (Though I missed Hammond and Jack.) I may be biased, being a Farscape fan.

Icewalker
2009-07-23, 01:08 PM
Yeah, after they lose Jack, I'd say it takes a pretty solid step down from awesome. It's still good, just definitely not as much.

Muz
2009-07-23, 01:15 PM
Yeah, after they lose Jack, I'd say it takes a pretty solid step down from awesome. It's still good, just definitely not as much.

*nod* Basically drops down to Atlantis levels, I think. 'Cept with Black & Browder. :smallbiggrin:

...Oh, this is a Stargate Universe, thread, huh? Sorry. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress...

GrandMasterMe
2009-07-23, 01:20 PM
SGU is going to make me cry myself to sleep for years and years to come. Should I actually bring myself to watch it I won't be able to look at the Stargate series the same ever agian. :smallfrown: I am now declairing the SGU NON-CANNON

Icewalker
2009-07-23, 01:53 PM
Either you know something we don't, or you're really overreacting...

They pulled off Stargate: Atlantis and it was a good show, if not better (I've mostly heard support from many friends, seen little myself). It's quite possible that they can manage it again. No, that outcry is the one to give after it turns out that SGU sucks. Also, it's spelt 'canon'.

GrandMasterMe
2009-07-23, 02:05 PM
haha most likely, but isn't it much more fun to be melodramatic? :smallbiggrin:

JadedDM
2009-07-23, 06:52 PM
Stargate Galactica? *shudders* Stargate's appeal is that it ISN'T trying to be "darker and edgier." It'd be like dipping a chocolate chip cookie in jalapeno cheese dip.*

Yeah, I want to give it a fair chance but part of Stargate's appeal has always been that it never takes itself too seriously. But when I heard the creators calling Stargate Universe "darker and edgier" with a "younger cast" my first thought was...wait, didn't they once make fun of that very concept in SG1?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10HN5UpRZc4

Kaelaroth
2009-07-23, 06:56 PM
Yeah, I want to give it a fair chance but part of Stargate's appeal has always been that it never takes itself too seriously. But when I heard the creators calling Stargate Universe "darker and edgier" with a "younger cast" my first thought was...wait, didn't they once make fun of that very concept in SG1?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10HN5UpRZc4

*peers in*
This, though, was my favourite "200" parody. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCNDdlCo4rA&feature=related)

Vaynor
2009-07-23, 06:57 PM
Well I think that if it's anything close to the first two shows it's going to be awesome. I don't have high hopes for it, but I'm definitely going to watch it. I thoroughly enjoyed the rest of them.

Lamech
2009-07-23, 07:04 PM
Battlegate Voyager! I don't think they go together.

HamHam
2009-07-23, 07:11 PM
They pulled off Stargate: Atlantis and it was a good show, if not better (I've mostly heard support from many friends, seen little myself). It's quite possible that they can manage it again. No, that outcry is the one to give after it turns out that SGU sucks. Also, it's spelt 'canon'.

What. SG: Atlantis is terrible.

And from those trailers, this looks like it could actually be worse.

kpenguin
2009-07-23, 07:12 PM
Speak for yourself, I like Stargate: Atlantis.

The Bushranger
2009-07-23, 08:00 PM
I actually think Atlantis is the better show.
*dodges pitchforks and boiling oil*

(Aside from the utterly idiotic fact they didn't take any zats along...)



But the SGU trailers just make me shudder. Lamech: BattleGate Voyager? Yeah, that pretty much sums it up, I think. And the very concept is silly:
The ninth chevron takes you to this Gate-seeding mystery ship? Well, presumably the ship came long after they came up with the gate system, which from Ark of Truth we know was (literally) on the drawing board when the Alterans abandonded the Ori galaxy...so why were there nine chevrons to start with? Expansion capability? :smallconfused:

And I completely agree that the whole "darker, edgier, younger" thing is a horrible idea. But these are the same people who rebranded their network "SyFy". <_<


(As an aside, isn't the woman saying "these people don't belong here" the Ancient who made the recording in Atlantis? She sure looks similar...)

Icewalker
2009-07-23, 08:14 PM
Yeah, I haven't seen enough of Atlantis to say anything about plot arcs or deeper aspects of characters, but it's visibly functional, and I've never heard anything but good about it from my friends, many of whom prefer it to SG1 (actually, mostly for the same reason I prefer SG1 to Atlantis, not having seen enough of the other...)

I love episode 200. That was just so well done.

Vaynor
2009-07-23, 08:25 PM
I wouldn't say I preferred Atlantis to SG1, but it's definitely just as good. What don't you like about it?

Thrawn183
2009-07-23, 08:34 PM
Yeah, Atlantis was pretty sweet. Then again, I hate BSG with a burning firey passion so... yeah, I'm concerned.

HamHam
2009-07-23, 08:40 PM
I wouldn't say I preferred Atlantis to SG1, but it's definitely just as good. What don't you like about it?

Rodney, and some of the other characters to a lesser extent, is the only redeeming aspect to Atlantis.

The writing makes the last couple of seasons of SG1 seem brilliant by comparison. Just one example from the series finale:

Ronin gets dramatically killed only to be randomly brought back to life ten minutes later.

Also, Shepard and his team are complete jerks who seem to only manage to get other people killed. The clip show even pointed this fact out... and then they just bribed the judges because yay for being above the law. Or something.

If the show made it clear we were supposed to hate them it might be an interesting deconstruction or something but as is the moral whiplash from things like the last Replicator episode is unbearable.

Alteran
2009-07-23, 08:48 PM
What. SG: Atlantis is terrible.

And from those trailers, this looks like it could actually be worse.

Atlantis is great, although not as great as SG-1. I wasn't a huge fan of season 5, largely because of the awkward McKay-Keller relationship. I really liked both characters and both actors, but the romance subplot just fell flat for me. It seemed rushed, and I didn't really see any chemistry. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed season 5, but not as much as season 4. As a die-hard SG-1 fan, Carter definitely made season 4 of Atlantis better for me. :smallsmile:

As for Universe...well, I'm preparing for the worst and setting the expectation-dial to "Cautiously Optimistic".



(Aside from the utterly idiotic fact they didn't take any zats along...)


Yes! That seemed really strange to me.



And I completely agree that the whole "darker, edgier, younger" thing is a horrible idea. But these are the same people who rebranded their network "SyFy". <_<


Yep, I thought exactly that.

LoopyZebra
2009-07-23, 09:00 PM
... That's odd. Eh. I like both BSG and SG-1, so whatever way it goes is good.

I also didn't like season 5 of SG-1, for the reasons listed above.

The Bushranger
2009-07-23, 09:03 PM
I presume you mean season 5 of Atlantis? :smalltongue:

Mitth'raw'nuruo
2009-07-24, 01:11 AM
I for one thought Atlantis was the dumbest thing ever.

However; having recently watched it (and re-watched all of SG1)

I relieved, that the first several seasons of Atlantis were better then SG1.

However, I think Atlantis suffers more from Star Trek big bad guy Syndrome.

The Wrath have just started to be weak.

Where as the Ghouls, (sp) stayed very powerful; the humans just recruited many allies.

The Bushranger
2009-07-24, 11:52 AM
Goa'uld. Although I think Jack would prefer your spelling. :smalltongue:

Seasons 1-3 of Atlantis are great. Season 4 is good, but Carter seems...off, somehow. Season 5, I'm not sure I want to bother spending for the DVD of.

thegurullamen
2009-07-24, 04:11 PM
Rodney, and some of the other characters to a lesser extent, is the only redeeming aspect to Atlantis.

Also, Shepard and his team are complete jerks who seem to only manage to get other people killed. The clip show even pointed this fact out... and then they just bribed the judges because yay for being above the law. Or something.

If the show made it clear we were supposed to hate them it might be an interesting deconstruction or something but as is the moral whiplash from things like the last Replicator episode is unbearable.

I dunno, I never thought the term "hero" was supposed to apply to Atlantis' cast. They do what they do to save themselves and humanity and frankly, everyone else can go **** off a cliff. I like that about them because it's a pretty good extension of their dealings with the Pegasus galaxy. Remember the Genai? They pretended to be farmers to trick the team into helping them complete nuclear technology. The team said 'no' because the Genai hadn't shown Atlantis that they could be trusted with nukes. (And the idea of starting up new nuclear powers is a bad idea, even if they're all but off the ground already.) What happens? Kolya. Siege. Petty vengeance for a long time. Sure, there are some cease-fires, but the second most advanced human civilization in Pegasus essentially tried to wipe out the Earthlings. Granted, not every civilization has been like that, but all it takes is one to remind the humans that a) they're not safe and b) neither is Earth [worse, if that one has nuclear capabilities].

As for the replicators...they're replicators. All they have to do is change their minds about an alliance and suddenly the Wraith are little more than schoolyard bullies compared to a fully-funded army. That they might never do that is irrelevant because of who they're talking to. Humanity's past with them (or rather, their Milky way counterparts) meant that the encounter was never going to end well. And it shouldn't. One of the things I hate about television is that allegiances change too rapidly, especially in military-related arcs. The replicators are genocidal maniacs and no amount of talk is going to shore up that past or make humans think better of anything that looks like a replicator. Kicking their asses while they're trying diplomacy was the best course of action.

You know, until it didn't work. Then oopsies.

Athaniar
2009-07-24, 04:24 PM
SG-1 is one of my favorite series (and Jack is definitely my #1 favorite sci-fi character), but I just didn't like Atlantis. I didn't find the characters the least bit interesting (and certain people I had already learned to hate from the original series), and the Wraith aren't (or weren't in Season 1) nearly as good villains as the Goa'uld.

Prime32
2009-07-24, 04:30 PM
Loved SG-1, but Atlantis seemed more formulaic, and the characters quickly became outright evil. Oh, and the villains lost all their advantages over the "good guys" and ceased to be threatening. I stopped watching before Carter moved to the series because I was scared of what they would do to her. :smallfrown:

Kaiser Omnik
2009-07-24, 04:37 PM
Loved SG-1, but Atlantis seemed more formulaic, and the characters quickly became outright evil. Oh, and the villains lost all their advantages over the "good guys" and ceased to be threatening. I stopped watching before Carter moved to the series because I was scared of what they would do to her. :smallfrown:

Evil? Really?

I agree that it was more formulaic, but I don't get all the hate for these characters.

Prime32
2009-07-24, 04:42 PM
Evil? Really?

I agree that it was more formulaic, but I don't get all the hate for these characters.They torture Wraith and lie to them, even when they pose no threat. Even the doctor. Heck, after developing a severe case of Stockholme Syndrome, Michael wanted to help them. He just begged them to do anything but brainwash him again, saying it would be worse than death. Guess what they did.

They also seem to believe that Earth-born humans are superior to everything else in the universe, and cannot even comprehend anyone not wanting to be painfully transformed into one at the cost of having their personality erased.

HamHam
2009-07-24, 04:45 PM
They torture Wraith and lie to them, even when they pose no threat. Even the doctor.

Also, betraying people who are trusting you with their interests is apparently a noble thing to do.

And it's okay to bribe people to "prove" your innocence when people suggest, with good reason, that you've directly or by negligence killed more people than the Wraith ever did.

thegurullamen
2009-07-24, 04:49 PM
Evil? Really?

I agree that it was more formulaic, but I don't get all the hate for these characters.

Just check out the Moral Dissonance page of TvTropes. SGA practically has its own sub-grouping.

Kaiser Omnik
2009-07-24, 04:52 PM
Just check out the Moral Dissonance page of TvTropes. SGA practically has its own sub-grouping.

Although Tv Tropes is not really a reference. Anyone can write anything there...

Prime32
2009-07-24, 04:57 PM
Although Tv Tropes is not really a reference. Anyone can write anything there...I wrote part of the example there. I tried to link to it, but I can't reach TVTropes at the moment.


Michael had a wealth of new scientific knowledge and combat skills. He had vowed to feed only on other Wraith. He would have been a huge asset to Atlantis... but apparently hate overruled logic, because instead they inflicted the worst possible torture on him, causing him to go insane and become a persistent thorn in their side.

Note that the characters seem to find it immoral to kill Wraith who have been transformed into humans, but normal Wraith are treated as worse than dirt. This applies even to Shepherd - a Wraith saved his life and even extended it, yet he seems almost gleeful as he kills them.

thegurullamen
2009-07-24, 05:00 PM
Although Tv Tropes is not really a reference. Anyone can write anything there...

Well, no, but you're not looking for something factual, you're trying to discover the basis for a widespread opinion. Provided the examples there are still well supported, TvTropes is a great resource for that.

HamHam
2009-07-24, 05:29 PM
If there had been a Wraith equivalent of the Tokra, the Atlantis team would have shot first and asked questions later. And then kept shooting.

Muz
2009-07-24, 05:32 PM
If there had been a Wraith equivalent of the Tokra, the Atlantis team would have shot first and asked questions later. And then kept shooting.

So, in other words, maybe there was a Wraith equivalent of the Tok'ra. :smallwink:

Prime32
2009-07-24, 05:33 PM
Here we go (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralDissonance).

The Asurans are a worse case. "Our Heroes" meet a group of sentient Artificial Humans, who are actually colonies of nanites. While not a Horde Of Alien Locusts like their SG-1 cousins, the Replicators, they do have jealousy towards humans due to being The Unfavourite of the Ancients, and violent tendencies left over from their days as combat 'bots makes some of them decide to attack humans, starting with Atlantis, and take off in their own Atlantis-esque flying city. Niam and some allies don't believe in leader Oberoth's attack, and help the Atlantis team with a program that will remove the violent programming. Well, once they stumble upon a way to paralyze the Asurans in the process, Our Heroes™ immediately abandon any plans of helping Niam, in favor of destroying the city and killing all of the hundreds of Asurans on it. They offer to take Niam with them, but not his allies. Somehow, the Asurans aren't too pleased with them lately, though their plans prove them to be just as bad, so we can't really root for them, either.

It's actually even worse: The episode makes it quite clear that the Asurans were replicators created by the Ancients of the Pegasus galaxy for the sole purpose of killing the Wraith... basically, they were created as slaves and cannon-fodder. But they did not act aggressively towards the Atlantis team when they first met (until they heard the humans were from Atlantis). The Asurans didn't even try to hide the fact that they were replicators. Some of them merely wished to remove the "kill" programming from their source code and to that end asked the humans for help.... going so far as to give McKay access to their own source code and means to rewrite it!! In exchange for help, they could have given the Atlantis team exactly what Atlantis needed: new, charged ZPMs, because the Asurans still had the knowledge how to build them. So, here were have two species that both fight the Wraith. Instant allies, you think? Nothing a bit of diplomacy couldn't solve? Naa. Instead what happens? The team hatches a plan to steal ZPMs, to use McKay's access to the source code to paralyse the Asurans, to betray them and blow up their city. When the Asurans react pissed-off and decide to destroy Atlantis, the script was now free to label them evil aliens.
The recent episode "Outsiders" involved a Wraith delegation threatening to cull a village unless they surrendered certain humans they were looking for. Present were the usual reasonable village leader, contrasted with others willing to sacrifice people / not trusting the heroes. Now, first we get lulled in with moral stuff like "Don't sacrifice some to save all". But what do our heroes (cut off from support) do later? Use one of the villagers who opposed them as bait so they can blow up the Wraith along with that person. Man, they are so lovable!

HamHam
2009-07-24, 05:36 PM
Also, in the episode where the ship was randomly Plane-shifting, didn't they randomly join in on a space battle and just picked the human side because obviously humans are the good guys in all dimensions or something?

zyphyr
2009-07-24, 11:43 PM
Also, in the episode where the ship was randomly Plane-shifting, didn't they randomly join in on a space battle and just picked the human side because obviously humans are the good guys in all dimensions or something?

Actually, they didn't assume good guys. Their reasoning was "Someone is attacking Atlantis. The odds are that if anyone here can help it will be whoever is controlling Atlantis. Maybe they will be grateful for some help."

Not a shining moment of heroism, but at least somewhat rational.

thegurullamen
2009-07-25, 12:18 AM
Here we go (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralDissonance).

Ah, the Asurans arc. Fun stuff. I think the issues here are a little overstated on the cynical side. The way I see it, when the Asurans reveal that they are Ancient-like in technological prowess, anthropomorphic war machines and extremely jealous of Atlantis to the point of moving to wipe them all out, they're showing Atlantis that they can not be trusted under any circumstances.

To put that episode in a new light, a) Asurans pulled the gun first, b) the anti-gun Asurans weren't strong enough to stand against them and had to resort to subterfuge, c) using Rodney's plan, the only plan they had at a critical and urgent juncture, it was impossible to hurt any Asurans without hurting all of them and d) a majority of the Asurans could not be allowed to live as they could and would destroy humanity, they were stuck with e) the supposed moral dissonance.

Was it nice betraying a creature who set you free under the pretenses of freeing his people from their own pre-programmed hatred? No. In fact, it's pretty damned despicable. Is it morally allowable if said people are on their way to a building with a map to the last bastion of the race they now loathe above all others, the one whom they wish to destroy and supplant, and the only way to stop them is to do such a horrible thing? Maybe, maybe not, but overall morality is not the biggest concern for the crew. They're going to protect Earth and that's all there is to it.

As for "Instant allies, you think? Nothing a bit of diplomacy couldn't solve?"...not so much. Each side hates each other for very deep-seated, long-standing reasons. Reasons unlikely to change unless Henry Kissinger's deity steps in and bitchslaps the negotiators. At best, cold war comes to mind, except the Asurans have the upper hand and they know it.

I'm not saying SGA is a moral group doing the utmost good in the universe, but they're not the malicious, ignorant SoBs people like to portray them as. Their decisions make sense in the context of the problems they are used to solve. I think it's a point in the show's favor that there is a very dark side to those decisions.

Cheesegear
2009-07-25, 12:33 AM
What. SG: Atlantis is terrible.

You're a liar. My Universe was saved when I had Atlantis to watch instead of SG-1 Seasons 9 and 10. Even with Browder and Black. And yes. I do love FarScape. But bringing in those two had me interested for a few episodes, then I lost interest again because of no MacGuyver.

HamHam
2009-07-25, 01:00 AM
I'm not saying SGA is a moral group doing the utmost good in the universe, but they're not the malicious, ignorant SoBs people like to portray them as. Their decisions make sense in the context of the problems they are used to solve. I think it's a point in the show's favor that there is a very dark side to those decisions.

How about the episode where the moral they learned was that they were all to juvenile and childish to be able to use that awesome civilization monitoring system they found in the basement to actually help people?

Or anything involving Michael really. That entire plan was completely reckless from the beginning and rather unethical to boot.

Or spacing the replicators after there was absolutely no good reason to do so.

Or the part where they made a replicator just to have it commit suicide.

Or the time they blew up a solar system.

Or the other time where they almost destroyed an entire alternate universe.

Or that whole thing with making the stargates self-destruct.

Or bribing their way out when someone bothered to call them on all this.

The Bushranger
2009-07-25, 01:06 AM
Well, destroying five-sixths of that solar system was an accident... :smalltongue:

king.com
2009-07-25, 01:41 AM
You're a liar. My Universe was saved when I had Atlantis to watch instead of SG-1 Seasons 9 and 10. Even with Browder and Black. And yes. I do love FarScape. But bringing in those two had me interested for a few episodes, then I lost interest again because of no MacGuyver.


I dont understand the hate for season 9 and 10, they had browder and black. BROWDER AND BLACK. I mean for all its failings that was enough to carry it for me. Though yes Atlantis early seasons atleast, were better.

JadedDM
2009-07-25, 05:18 AM
Eh, it's been my experience that most of the people who dislike Seasons 9 and 10 are just massive RDA fans. I don't think they even care what the show is about, as long as RDA is in it. :smalltongue:

kpenguin
2009-07-25, 05:24 AM
Hmmm... that does explain some people's uncommon love of MacGyver.

Kaiser Omnik
2009-07-25, 08:26 AM
How about the episode where the moral they learned was that they were all to juvenile and childish to be able to use that awesome civilization monitoring system they found in the basement to actually help people?

Or anything involving Michael really. That entire plan was completely reckless from the beginning and rather unethical to boot.

Or spacing the replicators after there was absolutely no good reason to do so.

Or the part where they made a replicator just to have it commit suicide.

Or the time they blew up a solar system.

Or the other time where they almost destroyed an entire alternate universe.

Or that whole thing with making the stargates self-destruct.

Or bribing their way out when someone bothered to call them on all this.

And they never made mistakes in SG1?
Why do you choose to use the word suicide with replicator? Oh, and remember Fifth? :smallannoyed:

Seriously, I don't get why you watched all those SGA episodes if you hate it that much.


I wrote part of the example there. I tried to link to it, but I can't reach TVTropes at the moment.


Michael had a wealth of new scientific knowledge and combat skills. He had vowed to feed only on other Wraith. He would have been a huge asset to Atlantis... but apparently hate overruled logic, because instead they inflicted the worst possible torture on him, causing him to go insane and become a persistent thorn in their side.

Note that the characters seem to find it immoral to kill Wraith who have been transformed into humans, but normal Wraith are treated as worse than dirt. This applies even to Shepherd - a Wraith saved his life and even extended it, yet he seems almost gleeful as he kills them.

They just discovered a race of creatures that eat humans and are usually evil themselves a few years ago. Is it such a surprise that the SGA team don't care that much for them?

EDIT: This thread is so derailed...

lisiecki
2009-07-25, 08:34 AM
WoW.

I know i don't do this often, but I want to thank the OP and the other posters.
With out this thread, I may never have checked out the stargate show.
Im about half way through seasion 2.

Its not a perfect show, but its soild, and i can see the potential for it to get better

thegurullamen
2009-07-25, 10:13 AM
How about the episode where the moral they learned was that they were all to juvenile and childish to be able to use that awesome civilization monitoring system they found in the basement to actually help people?

Or anything involving Michael really. That entire plan was completely reckless from the beginning and rather unethical to boot.

Or spacing the replicators after there was absolutely no good reason to do so.

Or the part where they made a replicator just to have it commit suicide.

Or the time they blew up a solar system.

Or the other time where they almost destroyed an entire alternate universe.

Or that whole thing with making the stargates self-destruct.

Or bribing their way out when someone bothered to call them on all this.

Por length:

It's not about childishness, it's about intelligence. There were too many factors involved; it's like playing Civilization 973,622: God Mode Edition where you control literally everything. No human could have used it effectively without doing a lot of things wrong. They quit when they found out.

Made sense in context. Also, who cares about the predators when you're the prey? As for the shoddy handling, you've got me there.

They're replicators. You need no other reason.

Okay, so strapping a suicide bomb to a sentient creature is a little...wrong. Still had to be done to stop the then-rampaging replicator colony. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the artificially created and arguably consenting suicide bot.

Accident. McKay couldn't be blamed for that one. Also, no one was home.

Covered it. It was morally grey and later redacted.

Don't remember that one.

They had stuff to do! They can't waste their time defending themselves to some arbitrary judiciary panel they don't even recognize! The Wraith were out there and dammit all man, they needed to be stopped!

EDIT: While trying to find the specific episode where McKay blows up the solar system, I Googled "atlantis episode blow up solar system" and this page came up as the seventh result. Way to go guys!


WoW.

I know i don't do this often, but I want to thank the OP and the other posters.
With out this thread, I may never have checked out the stargate show.
Im about half way through seasion 2.

Its not a perfect show, but its soild, and i can see the potential for it to get better

Oh, just wait until Window of Opportunity.

Athaniar
2009-07-25, 01:42 PM
O'Neill is my favorite character in the series, but I still liked the last seasons, although not as much as the earlier ones.


Oh, just wait until Window of Opportunity.
Yeah, that's one of my favorites. Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksbGZl9dggY&feature=channel_page) is part of it to watch.

loopy
2009-07-25, 02:03 PM
A thing I found amusing/annoying about the Stargate (and most sci-fi shows). Every time they have some alien virus or parasite or toxin or whatever infecting the base, they'll have some valid reason to cure it. This may be mass amnesia, sleepiness, regression to childhood, whatever.

All fine and dandy so far, light science for story and excitement, I can deal.

But then every episode around 25-30 minutes in, some random redshirt carks it from the disease/toxin/parasite just so they can ratchet up the tension. This gets annoying once you see the same thing about, oh... twice a season.

Just my opinion really. :smallsmile:

Some of the episodes, 200 especially, were amazing. I still love both SG-1 and Atlantis, though Jack was by far the best thing about both shows. :smallbiggrin:

HamHam
2009-07-25, 05:01 PM
And they never made mistakes in SG1?

They learned from their mistakes.


Why do you choose to use the word suicide with replicator?

Replicators are people too.


Oh, and remember Fifth? :smallannoyed:

I remember them regretting how that turned out quite a lot.


Seriously, I don't get why you watched all those SGA episodes if you hate it that much.

Rodney McKay.


It's not about childishness, it's about intelligence. There were too many factors involved; it's like playing Civilization 973,622: God Mode Edition where you control literally everything. No human could have used it effectively without doing a lot of things wrong. They quit when they found out.

One of the examples was like the town suffering serious water shortages and not being aware that there was an aquifer or something like five miles north of them.

But obviously creating protocols for using the system to inform these people without playing god at the same time would have been beyond the Atlantis team. Because they have the collective maturity of a teenager. And clearly Rodney might be a genius but not enough of one to just reprogram the thing to send the information from the satellites to each planets interface directly, thus improving these peoples quality of life immensely.


Made sense in context. Also, who cares about the predators when you're the prey? As for the shoddy handling, you've got me there.

Right, performing medical experiments on a POW against their will is totally fine as long as they're an alien.


They're replicators. You need no other reason.

Speciesist.


Accident. McKay couldn't be blamed for that one. Also, no one was home.

Rampant negligence is still your fault. Also, he would have tried it even if it had been populated.


Covered it. It was morally grey and later redacted.

The gross disregard for the welfare of others it takes to decide that since you think there's a good chance the universe you will be destroying will be uninhabited makes okay to roll the dice is an okay plan to begin with is staggering.


They had stuff to do! They can't waste their time defending themselves to some arbitrary judiciary panel they don't even recognize! The Wraith were out there and dammit all man, they needed to be stopped!

Because unilatertally doing what you think is best for everyone without consulting them is totally the right way to run foreign policy. Wait...

thegurullamen
2009-07-25, 07:30 PM
"Replicators are people too."

Pfeh to you, good sir.

"One of the examples was like the town suffering serious water shortages and not being aware that there was an aquifer or something like five miles north of them.

But obviously creating protocols for using the system to inform these people without playing god at the same time would have been beyond the Atlantis team. Because they have the collective maturity of a teenager. And clearly Rodney might be a genius but not enough of one to just reprogram the thing to send the information from the satellites to each planets interface directly, thus improving these peoples quality of life immensely."

Where do you draw the line? You help one civilization, then another, then another. Where does it stop? Then there's the problem of a lower-intensity butterfly effect, which was half the point of that episode: solutions to problems can have dire consequences in other areas.

"Right, performing medical experiments on a POW against their will is totally fine as long as they're an alien."

*Alien that only eats humans. And are arguably mutated humans who can be cured. Morally grey enough for the government seal. Go team Anthro!

"Speciesist."

Only when the other sentient species are coming after me. It's war, you don't get the option to play nice.

"Rampant negligence is still your fault. Also, he would have tried it even if it had been populated."

I object! Speculation!

"The gross disregard for the welfare of others it takes to decide that since you think there's a good chance the universe you will be destroying will be uninhabited makes okay to roll the dice is an okay plan to begin with is staggering."

They did the math and it was absurdly in their favor. Like struck by lightning while holding the winning lottery ticket and waking up in the hospital next to nineteen other people who did the exact same thing multiplied by 4219x10^42. Of all the lottos to win, you know?

"Because unilaterally doing what you think is best for everyone without consulting them is totally the right way to run foreign policy."

Tell that to the judicial committee, lol. When did Atlantis ever decide to join in interplanetary hearings? They had to gas them after lying to them just to get them in the trial. It's not foreign policy if you're lured away from home under false pretenses and kidnapped. Moral dissonance indeed.

HamHam
2009-07-25, 07:45 PM
Where do you draw the line? You help one civilization, then another, then another. Where does it stop?

When you go through all the planets that thing was connected to?


Then there's the problem of a lower-intensity butterfly effect, which was half the point of that episode: solutions to problems can have dire consequences in other areas.

The only, only reason anything bad was happening on that planet was that Rodney and John are apparently less mature than a preschooler and don't understand the idea of sharing. Even after they found out that their actions were having serious real life ramifications, they continued to argue like children for the rest of the episode until deus ex machina fixing everything in the last ten minutes.


Only when the other sentient species are coming after me.

There were only like a dozen left. And they were stuck in bodies that couldn't replicate. And when given the opportunity to double cross Atlantis they didn't.

So instead Atlantis double crossed them before they could complete their evil plan of going to some uninhabited planet and working on becoming more spiritually enlightened.


They did the math and it was absurdly in their favor.

Based on what data? Their "math" was pure speculation based on the fact that infinite alternate universes must have way more uninhabited ones than inhabited ones. With no actual evidence for this being the case.


Tell that to the judicial committee, lol. When did Atlantis ever decide to join in interplanetary hearings?

When they decided to start messing around in the Pegasus galaxy without asking anyone if they even wanted their help?

thegurullamen
2009-07-25, 08:23 PM
"When you go through all the planets that thing was connected to?"

Nice answer, except you forgot a dimension: when do you stop? There's always going to be some new problem, some more lives at stake. If you step in to take responsibility for those lives, is it moral to ever quit?

"The only, only reason anything bad was happening on that planet was that Rodney and John are apparently less mature than a preschooler and don't understand the idea of sharing. Even after they found out that their actions were having serious real life ramifications, they continued to argue like children for the rest of the episode until deus ex machina fixing everything in the last ten minutes."

Less them being immature than showing the corruption that results from great power. People suck. Atlantis is no exception. Granted, their suckitude came out quickly, but that's more due to the time dilation from being a television show than anything. Give anyone a similar power over other peoples' lives and you'd have similar results in a year or less.

"There were only like a dozen left. And they were stuck in bodies that couldn't replicate. And when given the opportunity to double cross Atlantis they didn't. So instead Atlantis double crossed them before they could complete their evil plan of going to some uninhabited planet and working on becoming more spiritually enlightened."

I can't refute this, having never seen that episode, but the logic I imagine goes like this: "Reformed" repeat serial killer wants to move into the neighborhood and live a normal life. What normal person wouldn't wonder about the how strong that reformation was? Now, replace "serial killer" with "nanite killbot that has more than a dozen reasons to hate humanity and decent knowledge about Atlantis' inner workings". Humans suck, but at least we're not replicators.

"Based on what data? Their "math" was pure speculation based on the fact that infinite alternate universes must have way more uninhabited ones than inhabited ones. With no actual evidence for this being the case."

I imagine the physicists had a decent handle on the math involved. Hell, Rod once made up a branch!

"When they decided to start messing around in the Pegasus galaxy without asking anyone if they even wanted their help?"

Still doesn't give the Council the right to kidnap them. Hell, they didn't even have the balls to step forward and say "Hey, you guys, let's talk this out" before they went and acted unilaterally. You want a trial, lying and hiding yourselves is not the way to go.

And if you remember, at least one of the "judges" was emotionally compromised and sat on the bench for revenge, not justice. That the other two didn't call her out on it shows their complicity. The whole trial stank to hell.

Evrine
2009-07-25, 08:54 PM
Replicators are people too.
Maybe, but when people are out to destroy you for no justifiable reason, you have the right and responsibility to defend yourself. Don't forget that the replicators were the ones who started attacking innocent people just to limit the Wraith's food supply.


I remember them regretting how that turned out quite a lot.
I seem to remember them regretting that he wasn't caught in the time dilation field like he was supposed to be.



One of the examples was like the town suffering serious water shortages and not being aware that there was an aquifer or something like five miles north of them.
I agree with thegurullamen. When does it stop? What do you do about the dependency you're artificially creating by doing this?



The only, only reason anything bad was happening on that planet was that Rodney and John are apparently less mature than a preschooler and don't understand the idea of sharing. Even after they found out that their actions were having serious real life ramifications, they continued to argue like children for the rest of the episode until deus ex machina fixing everything in the last ten minutes.
Or, you know, because they thought it was a simulation and didn't affect real life in any way, until they found out it did. As for what happened after, they're still caught up in how its affecting real life and their usual competitive relationship.



Right, performing medical experiments on a POW against their will is totally fine as long as they're an alien.
While you have a point, I thought that Michael, up until he started doing the hybrid thing, did a good job of exposing how bigoted it was to attempt to 'cure' the wraith. This isn't to say that I don't think they should have tried, as facing an enemy that outnumbers and outguns you, not to mention having comparable technology and literally thirsting for your blood, all avenues of surviving have to be explored.



Rampant negligence is still your fault. Also, he would have tried it even if it had been populated.

The gross disregard for the welfare of others it takes to decide that since you think there's a good chance the universe you will be destroying will be uninhabited makes okay to roll the dice is an okay plan to begin with is staggering.

Given that there are supposedly an infinite number of universes out there, whether one was inhabited or not should have been like 50/50, but even knowing that I don't think it actually makes any difference. What's one less universe if there are infinitely many of them?



Because unilatertally doing what you think is best for everyone without consulting them is totally the right way to run foreign policy. Wait...


When they decided to start messing around in the Pegasus galaxy without asking anyone if they even wanted their help?
I don't know about you, but I think I'd be a little defensive too if I was kidnapped and blamed for the actions of third parties.



There were only like a dozen left. And they were stuck in bodies that couldn't replicate. And when given the opportunity to double cross Atlantis they didn't.

So instead Atlantis double crossed them before they could complete their evil plan of going to some uninhabited planet and working on becoming more spiritually enlightened.
I don't remember this episode either, but given the number of times they've nearly been destroyed by replicators, I don't think I'd trust them much, either.

kpenguin
2009-07-25, 09:09 PM
The reason I enjoy Atlantis is more because of the characters than the plot, really.

thegurullamen
2009-07-25, 09:22 PM
The reason I enjoy Atlantis is more because of the characters than the plot, really.

Yep. McKay is just greatness and Shepherd makes a better leader than the non-O'Neill guy from SG-1. (Don't remember his name, sorry.) Kind of wish they'd follow up on Ford. I miss that crazy, defensive bastard.

kpenguin
2009-07-25, 09:53 PM
Also, both of the doctors? Made of awesome.

Ronon and Teyla I can take or leave, really.

thegurullamen
2009-07-25, 09:58 PM
Also, both of the doctors? Made of awesome.

Ronon and Teyla I can take or leave, really.

I liked Teyla more in the pilot than in anything afterward. She looked far more determined and intelligent then. Ronon's got some acting problems but I like the rage-warrior-with-a-laser aspect. Sort of hit or miss with him.

By doctors you mean Keller and Beckett?

kpenguin
2009-07-25, 10:01 PM
Ayup. Beckett and Keller just ooze awesome.

thegurullamen
2009-07-25, 10:10 PM
Dunno if I can agree about Keller. I want to like her, but the writers just spun their wheels with her character until the end. I'm not of the opinion that she sucks because she tried to replace Beckett, but I wanted more from her, you know?

Beckett, on the otherhand, was an everyman's McKay. Poor Woobie.

What do you think of Weir? I've heard she should have been more forceful with her command, but I thought she did a decent job.

Evrine
2009-07-25, 10:17 PM
Teyla was great up to a point, I've never liked it when an actress's pregnancy is written into a show. It steers the plot in directions it likely wouldn't have gone otherwise.

I didn't like Keller as much. I think they spent a little too much time exploring her relationships. Maybe I'm a little biased, but I don't like it when they add new characters towards the end of a show's run and have more story arcs around the new character to the exclusion of the other characters.


Yep. McKay is just greatness and Shepherd makes a better leader than the non-O'Neill guy from SG-1.
The relationship between McKay and Shepherd was absolutely fantastic and the banter between them was superb. I think it would have been very difficult for any two other actors to pull it off.

thegurullamen
2009-07-25, 10:23 PM
I remember in the first couple of seasons, there was a lot of "Is Shepherd Kirk or not?" conversations between them that were just gold. Especially that time he nailed the Descended goddess of the Utopian planet.

Sorry to sidetrack this conversation, but what does everyone think of John Scalzi's role in SGU?

kpenguin
2009-07-25, 10:25 PM
I'm skeptical of the impact of "consultants" on TV shows.

Aotrs Commander
2009-07-26, 05:33 AM
I'm... cautiously optimistic. Granted, I've only watched to season 2 of Atlantis (and missed the last chunk of SG-1 season 10) since Virgin and Sky had their little falling out. (Mum's got the DVD of both film and all of SG-1, I just haven't got around to watching them yet.) I liked season 9 and 10 (even though they had one or two real stinkers in there), and I liked Atlantis. Though, I confess, without Rodney it would have failed.

Also, Brad Wright is on board and the wiki did say it still going to be humourous (which is as well or it really wouldn't be Stargate). So I'm going to hedge my bets.

There is, of course, one aspect no-one's mentioned. Given that the networks flat-out cancelled SG-1 simply because it had been running for ten years (rather than out of dropping ratings or anything), one wonders if Brad and co were basically required to drop the 'dark and edgeier' in order to get the series past the sci-fi hating network execs. Further evidence support this hypothosis is what the wiki said about the character stuff that was leaked; the writers pointed out that the summaries often sounded flat and boring. Probably because they need to have the right buzz words to get past the mentally incompetant Powers That Be. In practise, then, the show might not be as 'dark' as in theory.

But really, only time will tell, I guess. (Though it does have a bit of a Voyager problem. Voyager itself didn't really pick up until season 3; and they've kinda already done the 'stranded' storyline with Atlantis in the first season, so...Hmmm.)

On the other hand, I suppose we should be grateful that we're even getting an attempt at sci-fi in the current climate.