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Adamaro
2009-07-24, 04:29 AM
Hello good sirs ...

I am a DM in search of a non-PC creature (3.5 ed), capable of killing lvl 20 wizard non-arena style. (ergo, wiz can have cast on him anything he likes before fight starts).

Since these spellcasting abominations laugh at tarrasques & lvl 20 CR co., I would welcome any suggestion in form of a monster, able te neatly deal with such a wiz.

tnx

Yora
2009-07-24, 04:36 AM
I'd suggest balors and pit fiends.
I'm not a powergaming optimizer, but the Pit Fiends Improved Grab, Constrict, and Regeneration seems pretty nasty to me, for a lone wizard. And it can hammer him with greater dispel magic, to remove most of his pretty buffs.

Keld Denar
2009-07-24, 04:36 AM
Black Ethergaunt? Its essentially a 9th level spell-wielding wizard-as-an-outsider. Sometimes the best thing to fight fire with...is fire.

It really depends on how many Contingencies the wizard is running, and how well worded it is. I've seen REALLY powerful 34 int 6 str grey elf wizards get pwnt by a simple CR8 Greater Shadow because it sprung attacked out of the wall because he didn't have a Contingeny running and was out of Immediate Action get-out-of-jail spells. Even with all that, 32 Greater Shadows is only an EL18 encounter, and 64 is an EL20 encounter, and with that many of the brutes, there is no way wizo can get out of assured spawndom short of a Contingent Teleport to home unless he's Astrally Projected, which has its own associated risks and costs.

Killer Angel
2009-07-24, 04:36 AM
Given that the "pre-cast all you want" is good also for wizard's enemy (i think), i could say: a Solar.
He's a 20th CL too, and also has very good sla (including wish).
And still it's not easy...

Edit: or do you need a CR 20 creature?

Vaynor
2009-07-24, 04:37 AM
Have you tried a golem? Maybe buff the Grisgol (MMIII) a bit to make it CR 20, or the Greater Stone Golem (increase it's HD even further).


Black Ethergaunt? Its essentially a 9th level spell-wielding wizard-as-an-outsider. Sometimes the best thing to fight fire with...is fire.

It's a caster and it's also immune to a lot of arcane magic. Perfect.

Yora
2009-07-24, 04:38 AM
Even with all that, 32 Greater Shadows is only an EL18 encounter, and 64 is an EL20 encounter, and with that many of the brutes, there is no way wizo can get out of assured spawndom short of a Contingent Teleport to home unless he's Astrally Projected, which has its own associated risks and costs.
The formula usually breaks down after more than 10 creatures.

Keld Denar
2009-07-24, 04:39 AM
Have you tried a golem? Maybe buff the Grisgol (MMIII) a bit to make it CR 20, or the Greater Stone Golem (increase it's HD even further).

Bah, even the highest level advancement of Greater Stone Golems falls prey to the might of the lowly Golem-killer that is Grease. Its 1st level, and no wizard of ANY level shouldn't prep at least 1, if not 3 by higher levels.

Adamaro
2009-07-24, 04:45 AM
Well this is refreshing ... after all "unkillable wiz" theories on some other forums ...

I'd also like to ask - What are "risks and costs, associated with Astral Projection"? That is my greatest problem. While wiz sits on one plane and his un-bashable/rakeable :) projection strolls arond on another, covered in all sorts of protection spells and spilling Wishes all over :D

Vaynor
2009-07-24, 04:48 AM
Bah, even the highest level advancement of Greater Stone Golems falls prey to the might of the lowly Golem-killer that is Grease. Its 1st level, and no wizard of ANY level shouldn't prep at least 1, if not 3 by higher levels.

Yes but they still can't hurt it with almost every offensive spell. What happens when you run out of grease?

Also, a Grisgol has 10 spell-like abilities (up to 9th level!) at it's disposal. Makes it a little better.

Edit: It could even Dimensional Lock/Cloudkill/Forcecage the wizard. :smallbiggrin:

BobVosh
2009-07-24, 04:49 AM
If the wizard is intelligent there is no way. The biggest issue is getting the wizard to stick around if he wants to leave.

So you need to nail him with dimensional anchor.

Wizards are quick and can cast phantom mount and move 500ish ft per round. Or overland flight for a meer 120 ft per round. Similiar.

So some form of slow. Or be faster.

They can also become forms that are hard to get to, only some of which are upsetted by dimensional anchor. Turn into ethereal/earth elemental/something that burrows fast.

Once again dimensional anchor and I don't even know what to do to stop earthglide from elementals. You can always follow a burrower if you want.

Thats like 3 spells in the first round. Possibly more. Frankly it would be better to just nail him with 3 SoDs. Espically since this doesn't include celerity, contigency, or similar spells that say "no, I refuse to let this happen to me."

Adamaro
2009-07-24, 04:52 AM
3 SoDs.

... Services of Daakhan? :D

Keld Denar
2009-07-24, 04:56 AM
The high material cost adds up after repeated castings. Granted, you'd have to have a dramatically unfortunate series of unsuccessful forages into the realm beyond to fall behind on cash, but still, it DOES add up and bite into the amount of other magical swag you can tote about.

Other than that, there's the potentially fatal consequence of having your Silver Cord severed. That would be...most uncomfortable.

Then there is the matter that its a Necromancy spell, often one of the most banned schools for a Focused Specialist caster after Enchantment and Evocation. Its generally a toss-up between Necromancy and Abjuration. The biggest screw you spell in the game, or nigh invulnerability is a tough choice.

And then there is the simple matter that your DM could just ban you from casting either it, or the Genesis needed to form a safe resting place for your mortal body while your astral self goes out galavanting. To do anything else would be rather risky if some inquisitive foe were to come-a-knockin while you are otherwise not at home. I hate to bring Rule 0 into this, but as it stands, very few DMs I've ever known allow AP in games, but then again, very few DMs I know ever allow games to progress past level 16, so YMMV.

EDIT:

Yes but they still can't hurt it with almost every offensive spell. What happens when you run out of grease?

You either Teleport away, or you sick your meatshield of the week on it. If your buffed up meatshield wins? Bonus XP. If your meatshield gets clobbered? Teleport away and come back tomorrow (or even later today with a Fortifying Bedroll) packing a bunch of heavily metamagiced Orb spells. SR: NO spells means never having to worry about Immunity again. Oh, and Dominate/Animate/Summon a new meat shield.

BobVosh
2009-07-24, 04:56 AM
Save or dies.

TLN's Batman guide: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002

Killer Angel
2009-07-24, 04:59 AM
Yes but they still can't hurt it with almost every offensive spell. What happens when you run out of grease?



Even staying in Core, the wiz kills the golem without sweating, and in a lot of ways.
Summoning Hydras while the golem is in the grease?
Gate? Shapechange?

And the challenge is not the wizard killing the creature, but the creature (in this case, a golem) killing the wizard. Which is flying.
Seriously, a golem is no match for a 20th lev. wizard, no matter how many HD he had.

JellyPooga
2009-07-24, 05:00 AM
To what purpose is this request? A simple answer is "pretty much anything" because a coup-de-grace whilst the wizard is asleep is a pretty easy way to do it. However, I'm fairly certain that isn't what you're looking for...so are you looking for something that will just pose a challenge, something that will certainly be able to defeat the wizard, or what?

Gorbash
2009-07-24, 05:12 AM
Even staying in Core, the wiz kills the golem without sweating, and in a lot of ways.
Summoning Hydras while the golem is in the grease?
Gate? Shapechange?

Why bother?

Fly + few Orbs of X.

Yora
2009-07-24, 05:22 AM
But golems are much to easy, because they can't think. Everything with at least half a brain should be able to at least try to escape if it is in a fight with unfavorable conditions.
1st level commoners can kill a 20th level wizard, if they pull the crank that lets the ceiling collapse and burry the corridor with some 100 tonns of rock.

tiercel
2009-07-24, 05:31 AM
All kinds of ways but, hey, dragons work pretty good. If you feel the need to extra cheese, template a dragon. Say... a half-fiend old black dragon ("CR 19"). SR 35 there, some buffed abilities, not to mention (Sp) abilities at CL 25 including blasphemy (oops, that's auto-paralyze of your lvl 20 wizard for d10 minutes) -- and some other nice (Sp) even if you cut out the cheese of blasphemy. Plus you have a nice bundle of feats and skill points to allocate, and if you aren't giving the dragon a few useful magic items out of its horde you aren't really trying. (Also, black dragons get Hide and Move Silently as class skills, and their spellcasting -while not spectacular - is still high enough level to let them polymorph. Mmmm, tasty ambush.)

Gorbash
2009-07-24, 05:32 AM
Pit Fiends Improved Grab, Constrict, and Regeneration seems pretty nasty to me, for a lone wizard.

It's not. With so many ways of avoiding grapple (including just plain old Freedom of Movement obtained via Heart of Water), it's not a viable tactic at those levels.

He has Regeneration of only 5, which is trivial. Once you send him into negatives, just poke him with a silver dagger long enough and call it a day.


And it can hammer him with greater dispel magic, to remove most of his pretty buffs.

True, but Wizards usually have CL way beyond their level, and with Ring of Enduring Arcana they can boost their defense against Dispel signficantly.

Or just get a bunch of Rings of Greater Counterspells.

Adamaro
2009-07-24, 05:38 AM
To what purpose is this request? A simple answer is "pretty much anything" because a coup-de-grace whilst the wizard is asleep is a pretty easy way to do it. However, I'm fairly certain that isn't what you're looking for...so are you looking for something that will just pose a challenge, something that will certainly be able to defeat the wizard, or what?

Well ... coup-de-grace whilst the wizard is asleep ... on another plane? Not really.

I'm looking for "something that will certainly be able to defeat the wizard". Exactly that.

JellyPooga
2009-07-24, 05:56 AM
Well ... coup-de-grace whilst the wizard is asleep ... on another plane? Not really.

Given the diverse and various methods of plane-hopping, just taking a kip in a MagMansion or on your own personal demiplane is certainly not a sure-fire protection (no matter what Wizard fan-boys will tell you, Divination spells are not a guarantee that you'll see everything coming and Rope-Trick is not an infallible method of getting your 8 hours kip every night)


I'm looking for "something that will certainly be able to defeat the wizard". Exactly that.

Hmm, I was hoping for a little more detail than that, but I assume (given that you mentioned your DM status) that you're trying to kill a player, yes? Another important factor is whether this creature has to win solely on its own merits. For instance, can the environment come into play? Does it have to be a single creature? Can it be multiple types of creature? What gear can it have available? What are the circumstances under which this Wizard must die; Is it invading this creatures territory? Is it an 'assassination' job on the part of this creature (i.e. it's been sent to kill the wizard)? Is this creature playing the role of the BBEG? If this Wizard is a player, what sort of Wizard is he; Blaster? Batman? Necromancer? What sort of resistance can this creature you ask for be expecting?

It's all well and good asking for a non-Class levelled creature to defeat a Level 20 Wizard, but if this is for an actual game rather than just a thought exercise, then details are essential!

Keld Denar
2009-07-24, 06:04 AM
Oh oh oh...I know. Non-associated class levels! Take your average Old Black Dragon. Its CR16 and has 25 HD. As an old Dragon, it qualifies for Epic feats. Now tack on some wizard levels. You can go up to 25 class levels without shifting to a 1/1 CR progression. While under that cap, you advance 4 levels per 1 CR. So, 4x4 = 16 wizard levels to bring the dragon up to CR20, and 4x5 = 20 wizard levels at CR21, of for absurdity, 4x6 = 24th level wizard at CR22. Now you have a 20th+ level wizard with 45+ HD, Epic Spellcasting and all the other goodies that go with it, AMAZING dragon stats, saves that are off the charts, and all that jazz. And why stop at Wizard20? Why not Wizard5/Incantatrix4/InitiateoftheSevenfoldVeils7/Archmage4. Take Improved Metamagic 4 times and you can Autoquicken all your spells, not to mention that you can Persist 7th level spells. Your Repulsion DC will be off the scale and your CL will make it so that nothing outside of Long range spells can even affect you, and even if it does, Immediate Warding kicks in and says "screw you". You can melee decently, a quick casting of Blood Wind allows you to effectively do it out to ~50 feet with minor drawbacks. Oh, and thats not even including Metabreath spells like Animate Breath Weapon and Dispelling Breath which are pretty sick in their own right. Oh, and just Spell Stowaway Time Stope and maybe Celerity to keep wizo from doing most of his tricks, and invent an Epic Spell to sever his Silver Cord. You are a dragon afterall, its not like you don't have the time to sit around crafting it and nearly unlimited Kobald thralls willing to donate spell slots to your magnificence.

Yea...again...fire with fire, except DMs aren't restricted to that wimpy 1d6/round stuff, they get self-igniting phosphorous reinforced ultrasticky napalm of doom.

Adamaro
2009-07-24, 06:15 AM
Another important factor is whether this creature has to win solely on its own merits. For instance, can the environment come into play? Does it have to be a single creature? Can it be multiple types of creature? What gear can it have available? What are the circumstances under which this Wizard must die; Is it invading this creatures territory? Is it an 'assassination' job on the part of this creature (i.e. it's been sent to kill the wizard)? Is this creature playing the role of the BBEG? If this Wizard is a player, what sort of Wizard is he; Blaster? Batman? Necromancer? What sort of resistance can this creature you ask for be expecting?

It's all well and good asking for a non-Class levelled creature to defeat a Level 20 Wizard, but if this is for an actual game rather than just a thought exercise, then details are essential!

I like your style :D

So, here's the data.

It's BBEG. It's a creature to came and enslave entire continent, which is (currently) also populated by some lvl 20 wizards. (and druids, clerics)

ergo,

1. enviroment can't come into existence (unless, say, BBEG teleports wiz to plane of Instant destruction :D)

2. Yes, it has to be a single creature. it is a BBEG.

3.Preferrably no gear and if, then it should be rather simple. (menaning no spells with two pages of descriptions, lots of if-s and or-s)

4.Circumstances ... wiz uses his Astral projection and some "i-will-not-let-this-happen" spells to protect himself, while his "magazine" of other spells is full to the brim.

5.Yes, it can be multiple creature type.

6. It is not invading, it is just ... strolling? around. :D

7. No, not an assasination job. Just a new predator in ecosystem, ready to kill anyone not subduing to him. (some lvl 20 wizs do not)

8. Wizard is lvl 20 cheeze wiz. That's about all i can say. It's for an upocoming campaign.

Non-mechanically speaking, It might be, say ... "Overplanar dragon-mechandrite". (second part being fictional, homebrew race). Something horrible, huge, intelligent and with an intention of enslavement.

SinsI
2009-07-24, 06:17 AM
Wouldn't a fighter with an item granting anti-magic aura be sufficient?

Keld Denar
2009-07-24, 06:21 AM
And how would said fighter even get to the wizard? The fighter needs magic to detect the wizard, get to the wizard, hold the wizard in place long enough to do something about it, and even an AMF won't protect the fighter from getting Orbed to death from low orbit...and thats WITHOUT being creative.

EDIT:
Eh, could be a God. Slap a Divine Rank on just about anything, even a Kobald, and give it a handful of Salient Divine Abilities, or make up a few of your own, and walah, something with enough brass to take out a sufficently powerful wizo and a built in "hands off" policy concerning mortals, lest other gods of similar power get peeved with his meddling in mortal affairs.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-24, 06:33 AM
Wouldn't a fighter with an item granting anti-magic aura be sufficient?

There's a spell in Lords of Madness named Invoke Magic, familiarize yourself with it.


Maybe go with a truly unkillable creature, such as a Half-Golem Curst. Use one of the variant half-golems (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020803a) that are based on something that hasn't been updated to let no-SR spells through its magic immunity, so it will be truly immune to all but a select few spells. A Curst cannot be destroyed except via a specific few spells, all of which it would be immune to thanks to half-golem. It's not necessarily capable of killing the character, but the best he can hope for is a stalemate because it is impossible to defeat. I think it gets class levels, so give it something that allows it to pose a viable threat.

I'd probably just use an extremely difficult/capable opponent, perhaps a Phaerim (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a) or maybe a Steel Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a). Assuming he doesn't use Astral Projection, it could cast AMF which triggers a Contingent Teleport adjacent to him, then Invoke Magic + Quickened Dimensional Anchor since it would have Multispell. Have it use Moment of Prescience plus others for initiative, and have Spell Stowaway: Celerity. There's plenty of other tricks, but AMF to stop his Contingencies and just meleeing him down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) could work with proper planning.

iain62a
2009-07-24, 06:36 AM
Hehe...

I saw this thread on /tg/ a few minutes ago.

Anything to do with you OP?

Adamaro
2009-07-24, 06:41 AM
It does. Multisourcing, we might say ... :D

Amiel
2009-07-24, 06:59 AM
I'd also suggest pit fiends, balors and solars since they all have greater dispel magic as at will abilities. Might I also suggest the titan, and the advanced thought slayer.
Be aware that you can mix and change the cleric domains of the solar; the example in the MM has access to Air and War, but others may have access to the following: Destruction, Good, or Law.

You also have the option of advancing HD, thereby presenting a more appropriate challenge for a lower-powered, lower-'leveled' monster. An advanced planetar, for example, can be a scary enemy.

The 14 HD, CR 13 thought slayer has the Mind-Consuming Gaze, which instantly kills (by draining the mind away), range 30 feet, Fortitude DC 19 negates; wizards usually have poor Fort saves.

Or dragons who can cast anti-magic field as sorcerers and having done so lay into the wizard in brutal melee.

Additionally, if you wish to be extra evil, you could also set some of the lower-end epic monsters on the wizard (depending on the ECL and/or CR you are playing at); suggestions include:
Anaxim
Chichimec
Behemoth eagle; CR 18, SR 30, evasion
Behemoth gorilla; CR 19, SR 30
Ha-Naga
Appropriately advanced HD mercane with wizard levels
Mu Spore

You want to take a look at the psionic monsters and advance them accordingly. Or you could get another wizard, NPC wizard with creature base to do your dirty work. And golems, probably golems.

Alternatively you could stick the paragon template on a low HD/class level or other HD depending on your wish creature....and then add wizard levels on top of the lot :smallbiggrin:


Well this is refreshing ... after all "unkillable wiz" theories on some other forums ...

I'd also like to ask - What are "risks and costs, associated with Astral Projection"? That is my greatest problem. While wiz sits on one plane and his un-bashable/rakeable :) projection strolls arond on another, covered in all sorts of protection spells and spilling Wishes all over :D

Something that comes along that severs the silver cord, resulting in instant death; both your astral body and physical body. What they'll need to look out for is a githyanki gish with a silver sword; among other beings, but they're one of the most abundant on the Astral Plane.

Aharon
2009-07-24, 07:27 AM
Another drawback is that astrally projected wizards can be spirit bound by wu jen. Astral Projection is not dismissible, and per Manual of the planes, returning to your body is always possible, but takes a standard action.

So a lower level Wu Jen could potentially Spirit bind & Trap the Soul him.

Are you after equal CR? If not, Paragons from the Epic Level Handbook are fun. Just template a creature with it that is already rather strong, preferably a spellcaster like a dragon or a solar, and it might be able to deal with whatever the wizard gates in :smalltongue:

TSED
2009-07-24, 07:31 AM
Greater Shadow that was awakened and took some class levels. Preferably non-associated class levels for bonus CR jacking, though not necessarily caster-based.

Plus spawn.

*ToB may apply (shadow hand is thematic AND dangerous - 5' step out of the floor, strength drain, 50' teleport down as move action. Charge, strength drain, teleport down as swift action. Shadow noose line, see if you can stack them, strength drain while incapable of responding. Go back underground. Recover maneuvers if still alive. Ignore the wizard if it's still alive and looks like it's readying actions, or just watch him for a while: see if he lets his guard down or starts trying to prepare spells, in which case: attack! Otherwise, go do something else and come back 2 hours later to screw him over.)


Singular creature, BBEG material? Check.
Capable of driving the 'ecosystem' into pure destruction? Check... With a caveat. You said 20th clerics. Is it ok if a turn check can end it?


Re-feat and template cheese a terrasque? Keep in mind that with their int 3 they can pick up all kinds of class levels, too.


Epic Level Handbook monsters?

A dragon with some sort of clinging anti-magic breath? That'd be nasty.

Jack_Simth
2009-07-24, 07:34 AM
You need something that can:
1) Figure out that the Wizard is using Astral Projection.
2) Cast Disjunction fairly often.

See, Disjunction removes the Astral Projection, so the Wizard can't do anything, and just wastes resources, repeatedly.

Alternately, you need something that can:
1) Figure out that the Wizard is using Astral Projection.
2) Find the wizard's real body.
3) Get there with some weapon (a dagger will do).

JellyPooga
2009-07-24, 07:54 AM
Alternately, you need something that can:
1) Figure out that the Wizard is using Astral Projection.
2) Find the wizard's real body.
3) Get there with some weapon (a dagger will do).

I figure a Marruspawn Abomination might be capable of just such a trick. Not only does it come with its very own race of minons (the other Marruspawn), but it is full of badassitude; a Free Action Stone to Flesh ability, Immunity to a hell of a lot of stuff and many many HP as well as True Sight as an At-Will SLA and the Intelligence to figure out what the silver cord said True Sight reveals is. If he can't deal with the Wizard himself, then I figure he can at least tie the Wizard up for a while whilst a contingent of Marrulurks go and find the Wizards real body and dispose of it.

Amiel
2009-07-24, 07:55 AM
You need something that can:
1) Figure out that the Wizard is using Astral Projection.
2) Cast Disjunction fairly often.

See, Disjunction removes the Astral Projection, so the Wizard can't do anything, and just wastes resources, repeatedly.

Alternately, you need something that can:
1) Figure out that the Wizard is using Astral Projection.
2) Find the wizard's real body.
3) Get there with some weapon (a dagger will do).

A githyanki gish, especially if built with the 'common' combination of wizard/eldritch knight/fighter is probably going to seriously interfere with the wizard. Not only will this opponent match the wizard magically, it's also going to use spells to augment its abilities, fight tactically like a warrior (rather than with the wizard's can-be set-in-its-ways mindset) and when within an antimagic field or even if disjunctioned against is still able to function reasonably well.


Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord.

More importantly, s/he's have a silver sword, which when used to slice through the astral cord results in instant death.

Even better is to have a base monster tagged with wizard (or other class) levels on top of it.



Another monster suggestion is an advanced nightwalker.

Admiral Squish
2009-07-24, 08:02 AM
Well, have something sufficiently nasty on the material plane. If you wizard has a habit of going astral in emergencies, have him accidentally stumble onto a Xill city. Or a nest of astral scarabs, or whatever they call them. MM2. They're attracted to magic anyway, so it'd even fit flavor. Silver cord seems pretty magical, and if they can nibble through the fabric of the planes, then why wouldn't they be able to snip a silver cord?

Or, some anti-caster trap. A sealed room with an antimagic field and a lowly orc with an axe. Can you say squishy?

Krinn
2009-07-24, 08:31 AM
Make it a cunny spellcaster that can craft a cursed scroll of Antimagic Field. The scroll activates on the reader as soon as it's identified or read.
Send one of your lackeys (maybe a sorcerer) with said scroll and the order to not read it in any case to fight the wizard. The lackey will have some other scrolls/potions only as magical gear and he will use some of them in combat against the wizard. No rings, no wondrous items, nothing else.
The lackey must be high enough in level to actually be worth a fight and not give clues that he is just a suicide trap.
The lackey will likely die and the cursed scroll will be looted.
As soon as the wizard reads the scroll to identify the spell, unless he has something to prevent this kind of curses, the scroll activates on the reader and the wizard is now inside an antimagic field centered on himself for at least 110 minutes.

Then you send in reinforcements to kill the wizard inside the antimagic field... lowly orcs for fun :smallbiggrin:

Adventurers rarely, if ever, search for curses on scrolls since they can just identify them with a simple spellcraft check. If the wizard is cunny enough to use analyze dweomer on a scroll, he deserves to survive the trap :smallcool:

oxinabox
2009-07-24, 09:22 AM
IO believe someone has mentions giving it divine ranks (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Divine_Ranks)
and someone else said redon terrasque.

Ok.

Take the terrasque.
Give it the:
I may look stupid template. (home brew)
which is LA +55 CR+50.
and gives: Wis+30, Int+30.

Take 20 lvls of Cleric.
Then Give him Divine Rank. he can now grant him self spells. as a free action. well actually it can do better It can spontiosly cast any cleric spells it knows
16 should do alot~ DR30/epic=DR30/-. and you're now a greater diety.
Give it power over umm... any domains you think relelvent. I suggest the KillingWizardsDomain


Give Him an order of fanatical Ninja's. (complete adventure i think)
Give them homebrew LockDown magic variety of monk/ninja weapons.
LockDown effect.
If hit by this weapon you are Subject to Dimentional Anchor.
If you are a prepared caster You lose any spells:
Dispel, Disjunction... form you prepare list, you just can't seem to recall them. it is as if you have already expended them today
Cost +7.
Sure He'll counterspell the firs couple.
eventually you'll hit him. maybe.

Then Add to the mix, of cultist.
Some lvl 20 Clerics. (Did You say Quickened meteor shower?)
some Dragons, Ancient Gold Wryms in Addymantium Chains, anyone?

Oh and Most importantly LVL 20 Warlocks!
With Vicious dispell.
readied action to cast against any magic cast by the wizard.
You take damage equal to the Spell level the warlock dispelled. No Save.

Enough warlocks, and you can kill him with no saves, just by attacking his defences.


Some Planeswalkers.
As is said in steven erikson: I we had a hand or two of the claw, and a couple of high mages we'll crack this warren right open and kill that goddess right now



Or make him fight
PunPun or one of the Artificer builds - Anything you can do I can do better.

woodenbandman
2009-07-24, 09:28 AM
There's a spell in Lords of Madness named Invoke Magic, familiarize yourself with it.


Maybe go with a truly unkillable creature, such as a Half-Golem Curst. Use one of the variant half-golems (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020803a) that are based on something that hasn't been updated to let no-SR spells through its magic immunity, so it will be truly immune to all but a select few spells. A Curst cannot be destroyed except via a specific few spells, all of which it would be immune to thanks to half-golem. It's not necessarily capable of killing the character, but the best he can hope for is a stalemate because it is impossible to defeat.


Open a gate to the elemental plane of water, then use your rod of quicken to cast Summon Fiendish Kraken (stormwrack) and have said Kraken grapple the poor sod and pull him in. Grapple check vs DC 45+ or DIE. Or at least be stuck there for a long, long, time.

You just gotta think outside the box to kill the unkillable.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-24, 10:31 AM
An Ice Assassin capable of casting Ice Assassin. You guys make everything too complicated.

obnoxious
sig

Telonius
2009-07-24, 10:46 AM
This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301) may be relevant to your interests. CR 33. IIRC, the solution was eventually reached in a team of level-20 warlocks.

Woodsman
2009-07-24, 11:13 AM
The Spell "Antimagic Ray" from Spell Compendium would work wonders, I believe.

Antimagic field, but on a specific target. And they don't get a Will save. The problem is the ranged touch attack required to hit, if the wizard has his touch AC high enough.

Adamaro
2009-07-24, 11:24 AM
This is plain sad. And lvl 20 wiz isn't even epic ...

Well, at least I am not only not being able to save this problem.

I hoped for a badass dragon/somethingzilla to come on the scene, wizard's spells to deflect from it and -zilla to have (as it seems necessary) the anchor thingy and just keep the wiz standing still, until it gets crushed and eaten. It is indeed - a challenge with sad results.

Woodsman
2009-07-24, 11:31 AM
Of course, you could always fight a lv 20 wizard...

With a level 21 wizard. :smallcool:

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-24, 11:38 AM
Well, A Mind-flayer auto-kills something if it gets three-or-four tentacle grapples in, right?

So, a mindlfayer Monk (that's got to be pretty dissasociative!) high as you can, with a scroll of time-stop and some way of spotting the wizard first.
Tentacle away in a split second, and dine well?

tiercel
2009-07-24, 11:51 AM
I hoped for a badass dragon/somethingzilla to come on the scene....

Do you want me to stat out the half-fiend black dragon I suggested earlier in the thread? 'Cos it would work reasonably well, I would have thought, doesn't require any class levels, is Core, etc. (Cheese too.)

Oslecamo
2009-07-24, 12:06 PM
I hoped for a badass dragon/somethingzilla to come on the scene, wizard's spells to deflect from it and -zilla to have (as it seems necessary) the anchor thingy and just keep the wiz standing still, until it gets crushed and eaten. It is indeed - a challenge with sad results.

Dragon with AMF, scrying, spot, listen, hide and move silently maxed will very probably kill any wizard, but it's considered one of the most cheesy things out there, as it will kill pretty much any PC.

Telonius
2009-07-24, 12:30 PM
This is plain sad. And lvl 20 wiz isn't even epic ...

Well, at least I am not only not being able to save this problem.

I hoped for a badass dragon/somethingzilla to come on the scene, wizard's spells to deflect from it and -zilla to have (as it seems necessary) the anchor thingy and just keep the wiz standing still, until it gets crushed and eaten. It is indeed - a challenge with sad results.

Yes, the results are sad - because magic is just that good.

In order to defeat a level 20 wizard, you will need most if not all of the following:

- A way to prevent the Wizard from using Divinations that let him know what's threatening him
- A way to avoid Scrying or other detection if the Wizard does figure out you're a threat
- A way to get close enough to the Wizard to attack, without triggering his Contingent spells
- Enough hitpoints to withstand the attacks of any allies, minions, summoned creatures, Gated allies, etc the Wizard might have at his disposal
- A way to survive if the Wizard wins initiative (Immunity to whatever save or die spell the wizard might prepare, all high saves, etc)
- A way to avoid other magical defenses the Wizard might have up (Blur, Mirror Image, etc)
- Enough offensive capacity to slay the Wizard in a single round.
- A way to prevent the Wizard from escaping (contingent plane shift, etc) in the event that you do some (but not enough) damage to him
- A way to prevent him from recovering his spells if he does escape

There is no single monster, as presented in any of the Monster Manuals, that even comes close to having all of this without having caster levels itself. To even have a shot at it, you need to either start stacking on Templates, give the creature allies, sic another magic user on him, or homebrew your own caster-killer that has ways to get around all of the things I've mentioned (and probably several I haven't).

McBish
2009-07-24, 12:42 PM
A level 20 rouge with high bluff, two weapon fighting. Become the wizard's friend. Then when the time is right stab him many times. He should be flat footed so there. A 20th level wizard is still human, so he can still make stupid mistakes when it comes to choosing friends. Also make sure you steal his spell book and blame someone else. I mean why fight him fairly, he is a wizard so attack him in way's he won't suspect. Kidnap friends and family to get what you want. Get ton's of people to go after him to wear him down. Forget fighting a wizard, fight the person that he is.

Myrmex
2009-07-24, 12:53 PM
The high material cost adds up after repeated castings. Granted, you'd have to have a dramatically unfortunate series of unsuccessful forages into the realm beyond to fall behind on cash, but still, it DOES add up and bite into the amount of other magical swag you can tote about.

Other than that, there's the potentially fatal consequence of having your Silver Cord severed. That would be...most uncomfortable.

Then there is the matter that its a Necromancy spell, often one of the most banned schools for a Focused Specialist caster after Enchantment and Evocation. Its generally a toss-up between Necromancy and Abjuration. The biggest screw you spell in the game, or nigh invulnerability is a tough choice.

Why not just bind a nightmare and dominate/mind rape it into being your Astral Projection bitch?

Telonius
2009-07-24, 01:00 PM
A level 20 rouge with high bluff, two weapon fighting. Become the wizard's friend. Then when the time is right stab him many times. He should be flat footed so there. A 20th level wizard is still human, so he can still make stupid mistakes when it comes to choosing friends. Also make sure you steal his spell book and blame someone else. I mean why fight him fairly, he is a wizard so attack him in way's he won't suspect. Kidnap friends and family to get what you want. Get ton's of people to go after him to wear him down. Forget fighting a wizard, fight the person that he is.

That method was partly basis of the Joker Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158) concept.

If a Wizard chooses his Divination spells intelligently, he is not subject to human fallibility about his friends (unless that "friend" has some way of hiding his motives from the gods themselves).

McBish
2009-07-24, 01:05 PM
Yes because a wizard is going to constantly be using his spells on everyone he meets. Unless there are spells out there that let you keep up knowing when someone is lying all day long I'd say you can avoid this by working slowly and becoming a trusted friend before he has any reason to suspect you.

Myrmex
2009-07-24, 01:11 PM
Yes because a wizard is going to constantly be using his spells on everyone he meets. Unless there are spells out there that let you keep up knowing when someone is lying all day long I'd say you can avoid this by working slowly and becoming a trusted friend before he has any reason to suspect you.

It would be worth a wizards time and spell slots to spend a day a week or every three days or what have you to ask "are any of my close associates plotting to destroy me?"

Telonius
2009-07-24, 01:18 PM
Contact Other Plane once a day.

- Of the various people and things plotting my demise, is the one that poses the greatest immediate threat to my safety currently on this plane?
- ... within ten miles of my current location?
- ... humanoid?
- ... male?

...etc. Basically play 20 questions to narrow down the threats, then Legend Lore on the person who's after you. The questions would be worded more intelligently than that, since the Wizard will have Intelligence over 25 (which is a lot more than I have). After you've done Legend Lore, then Scry and Die. Even if it's somebody he's trusted his entire life, he'll be able to know. (There is a possibility of an incorrect or unknown answer, even from a Greater deity, so he'd probably get a second opinion if it's his wife).

McBish
2009-07-24, 01:20 PM
And if you are answered with a yes you still have to figure out who it is. But yeah, they are hard to trick, but they are not impossible to trick. They still have to ask the right questions. I'm just saying, this is how I would kill a wizard.

Maybe then a Spy Master with Deep Cover. No more Divination for you. It will only revel information about the Cover Identity, not your true intentions.

Lamech
2009-07-24, 01:31 PM
Pseudonatural Efreet(i) and Pseudonatural non-genie friend(s). In their native enviorment of the far plane. Give them a portal to the prime. They both want these wizards dead right? Using the flowing time trait of the far plane, and the transport travellers part of the wish spell to send them some place leathal (sphere of annilation), each target must make infinite will SoDs.

The chance of them rolling a 1 is 100%. Assuming the Efreet(i) can get a method of buffing its caster level above any permanent SR (*cough* wish *cough*), every wizard dies. Instantly.


A slightly less shaddy method of doing this is dweamerkeeper (CD web enhancment) dragon. Give the dragon awakened spell resistance enough times to prevent any of the wizards from breaking its SR. (Otherwise the wizards would do the same) Then have the dragon use the ever broken spell as a su ablity to again wish the wizards to their dooms.

This requires that the wizards not have access to dweamerkeeper, and not have access to most of the CL boosters. So... don't allow them. The DM isn't required to allow all of non-core.

P.S. You also might be able to have it be a half-golem dweamerkeeper. Depending on if you allow spell immunity to prevent the wish tranport travellers. Then basically again wish the wizards to their doom. And for the dweamerkeeper option remember "A non-mind blanked wizard killer is a dead wizard annoyer."

Choco
2009-07-24, 02:00 PM
A Pit Fiend would work against a lone wizard if the wizard did not know it was coming. Give it an AMF and have it do a charging grapple on the wizard from behind, and your pesky wizard problem is solved. The Wizard's strength comes from knowing what is coming, and as intelligent/paranoid as Devils are, I'm sure you could work out a way that a Pit Fiend could surprise a lvl 20 Wizard.


Yes, the results are sad - because magic is just that good.

In order to defeat a level 20 wizard, you will need most if not all of the following:

- A way to prevent the Wizard from using Divinations that let him know what's threatening him
- A way to avoid Scrying or other detection if the Wizard does figure out you're a threat
- A way to get close enough to the Wizard to attack, without triggering his Contingent spells
- Enough hitpoints to withstand the attacks of any allies, minions, summoned creatures, Gated allies, etc the Wizard might have at his disposal
- A way to survive if the Wizard wins initiative (Immunity to whatever save or die spell the wizard might prepare, all high saves, etc)
- A way to avoid other magical defenses the Wizard might have up (Blur, Mirror Image, etc)
- Enough offensive capacity to slay the Wizard in a single round.
- A way to prevent the Wizard from escaping (contingent plane shift, etc) in the event that you do some (but not enough) damage to him
- A way to prevent him from recovering his spells if he does escape

There is no single monster, as presented in any of the Monster Manuals, that even comes close to having all of this without having caster levels itself. To even have a shot at it, you need to either start stacking on Templates, give the creature allies, sic another magic user on him, or homebrew your own caster-killer that has ways to get around all of the things I've mentioned (and probably several I haven't).

Heh, I had to do that before. I had a lvl 20 Ninja/Iaijutsu master (Ninjas are good for avoiding divination... and this one had an item to boost it to entirely undetectable levels :smalltongue:) with a template that had her constantly projecting an AMF cone from her eyes like a beholder and getting SR like a Yuan-Ti. Combine that with INSANE hide/move silently scores, a major artifact Katana (permanently poisoned dealing 3d6 int damage, vorpal, wounding, speed, crit on a 10+ when combined with feats/abilities, and a bunch of other stuff I forgot), and Blindsight, that wizard didn't stand a chance. The player cried that this wasn't fair, I just told him "Thats what you get for picking a fight with a GOD just because you thought you could win through munchkinery."

Edit: Though when I think about it, the reason he was so mad might have been HOW she killed him... Her god (the one the wizard was pissing off) provided her with intel on where he would be at every point in the day to save her the trouble of spying on him, so she snuck into his castle and hid in his bathroom till he had to go #2. No guards in there, and she literally caught him with his robes around his ankles :smallamused:

But hey, least he died like a king, on his throne :smallamused:

Oslecamo
2009-07-24, 02:34 PM
After you've done Legend Lore, then Scry and Die. Even if it's somebody he's trusted his entire life, he'll be able to know. (There is a possibility of an incorrect or unknown answer, even from a Greater deity, so he'd probably get a second opinion if it's his wife).


There's plenty of ways to become immune to scrying and most divinations out there actually, so you won't know what's after you untill it's sinking it's teeths in your soft d4 flesh.

grautry
2009-07-24, 02:48 PM
- A way to prevent the Wizard from using Divinations that let him know what's threatening him
- A way to avoid Scrying or other detection if the Wizard does figure out you're a threat
- A way to get close enough to the Wizard to attack, without triggering his Contingent spells
- Enough hitpoints to withstand the attacks of any allies, minions, summoned creatures, Gated allies, etc the Wizard might have at his disposal
- A way to survive if the Wizard wins initiative (Immunity to whatever save or die spell the wizard might prepare, all high saves, etc)
- A way to avoid other magical defenses the Wizard might have up (Blur, Mirror Image, etc)
- Enough offensive capacity to slay the Wizard in a single round.
- A way to prevent the Wizard from escaping (contingent plane shift, etc) in the event that you do some (but not enough) damage to him
- A way to prevent him from recovering his spells if he does escape

I'll add to that:
- A way to overcome Celerity/Timestop combo.
- You need to be able to kill the wizard without relying on need for surprise or flat-footedness(Foresight).
- Adding to Contingencies: As any respectable level 20 wizard will have Craft Contingent Spell, you need to find a way of what those are and of avoiding them(there will be easily at least 20 of those).
- It needs to be reiterated again: A wizard will not be alone. There are simply too many ways for him to acquire allies for life(without even relying on a party). So you need your own allies.

If we go into extreme cheese then you also need to have a way to locate and enter the wizard's demiplane. Why? IF you kill his Astral Projection then a true-resurrection capable servant will be waiting there to resurrect his body immediately. All you accomplish is killing his image and making him waste 25k gp(or 1k gp if the servant is casting Revivify).

And even IF you enter that demiplane you need to be capable of dealing with some truly insane entities such as Elder Titan/Force(or Prismatic) Dragon/Any uber-monster Simulacra or Ice Assasins so that presents its own problems.

Frosty
2009-07-24, 03:03 PM
A pair of Phanes (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Phane) should overcome a lot of the problems except possibly for Contingent Teleports, and THAT can be overcome with replacing worthless feats with better feats like Spell Stowaway (Greater Teleport), Spell Stowaway (Teleport), Spell Stowaway (Planeshift) etc.

Whereever the Wizard teleports to, the Phanes will automatically go to as a free action. The Phanes have a Touch AC of 50, so it's virtually impossible for level 20 Wizard to hit even with a True Strike. Even if the Wizard Time Stops the Phanes will automatically enter Timestop with the Wizard.

It's immune to...well, most things a wizard can do that are Save or Dies or even just Dies. Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks; not subject to Energy Drain, ability drain, ability damage, or death from massive damage; immune to mind-affecting effects; fire resistance 20; cold resistance 20; nondetection; true seeing at will; blindsight 500 ft.; telepathy out to 1,000 ft. Yeah. Good luck doing anything to it. Even a chees-ed out Orb spell won't work due to again, the 50 Touch AC.

Khatoblepas
2009-07-24, 03:05 PM
It would be worth a wizards time and spell slots to spend a day a week or every three days or what have you to ask "are any of my close associates plotting to destroy me?"

Contingent Mindrape to restore your memories "once the wizard is in a position to be murdered" or a similar trigger, or when someone Sends you a particular message ("Booglidoo Bap bap"), Mindrape yourself to make yourself forget your plan and join up with the wizard.

Wizard says: "Are any of my companions plotting to kill me?"
Answer: "No."

Because, you aren't plotting. You aren't planning to kill them. You are totally unaware that you are going to kill the wizard. Name your BBEG Yagami Light.

grautry
2009-07-24, 04:09 PM
Contingent Mindrape to restore your memories "once the wizard is in a position to be murdered" or a similar trigger, or when someone Sends you a particular message ("Booglidoo Bap bap"), Mindrape yourself to make yourself forget your plan and join up with the wizard.

Wizard says: "Are any of my companions plotting to kill me?"
Answer: "No."

Because, you aren't plotting. You aren't planning to kill them. You are totally unaware that you are going to kill the wizard. Name your BBEG Yagami Light.

What?

You are plotting to kill the wizard and to cover this, you erase your memories. That you erased your memories does not change the fact that you've been plotting to kill him.

Contact Other Plane contacts *greater deities*, they won't be fooled by petty shenanigans like those.

And as far as Yagami Light goes, level 20 Wizards will have Intelligence scores in the 30+ range, which is frankly, far beyond any human who has ever lived, ever. Their questions when using COP will have a degree of sophistication far beyond anything you and I can think of and will probably cover options such as those.

All this really means that to approach the wizard you still need that immunity to divinations.

Lysander
2009-07-24, 04:22 PM
Couldn't you be sneaky about it? While the wizard is fighting the BBEG just have some kind of controlled insect or snake with a really poisonous bite nip him on the ankle.

grautry
2009-07-24, 04:27 PM
Couldn't you be sneaky about it? While the wizard is fighting the BBEG just have some kind of controlled insect or snake with a really poisonous bite nip him on the ankle.

One word: Foresight.

McBish
2009-07-24, 04:35 PM
A spymaster will eventually be immune to any Divination to find out his true nature. Makes Contact Other Plane will not work against them. And therefore you could take them by surprise.

Shadowbane
2009-07-24, 04:48 PM
What?

You are plotting to kill the wizard and to cover this, you erase your memories. That you erased your memories does not change the fact that you've been plotting to kill him.

Contact Other Plane contacts *greater deities*, they won't be fooled by petty shenanigans like those.

And as far as Yagami Light goes, level 20 Wizards will have Intelligence scores in the 30+ range, which is frankly, far beyond any human who has ever lived, ever. Their questions when using COP will have a degree of sophistication far beyond anything you and I can think of and will probably cover options such as those.

All this really means that to approach the wizard you still need that immunity to divinations.

You're assuming the wizard is an NPC. If they are a player, they could make that mistake. Just because the wizard as the intellect of Einstein x10 doesn't mean the player does. If they ask, "Are any of my companions plotting to kill me?"

The answer would be "No" because they aren't plotting to kill you currently. But once that Contingent Mindrape activates, then suddenly they are, and hopefully by then it's too late.

grautry
2009-07-24, 05:13 PM
You're assuming the wizard is an NPC. If they are a player, they could make that mistake. Just because the wizard as the intellect of Einstein x10 doesn't mean the player does. If they ask, "Are any of my companions plotting to kill me?"

The answer would be "No" because they aren't plotting to kill you currently. But once that Contingent Mindrape activates, then suddenly they are, and hopefully by then it's too late.

It's a useless question anyway. A more proper one is "Has anyone been plotting to kill me from <the time he last activated COP>?". Otherwise you can get situations where you can have someone actively wanting to kill you and the answer being 'yes' only in situations where he's say, coming up with a battle plan(with a really literal interpretation of the question).

Anyway, I feel the need to include abstract power - such as intelligence of a wizard - into the discussion simply because it can't be forgotten. Otherwise you get situations like some months ago when someone posted that a CR 18(or something along these lines) monk killed a freaking Solar and thus Monks were uber.

The answer to that was that the Solar didn't even use 1/10 of his power and it was hard to really call it 'killing' the Solar and more like 'the Solar committing suicide in the general vicinity of a monk'.

I feel that this situation is similar. If we don't include the fact that the Wizard is a super-genius then we're overseeing a ton of options he *should* have foreseen and as such, even if someone comes up with a way to kill a wizard, it's not really 'killing the wizard' and more 'wizard committing suicide because he didn't do XYZ'.

And we run into another problem again. "20th level Wizard" is a huuuge category of races, builds, feats and items. We can go from uber-Varsuuvius evocation specialist level of dumb up to Tippy Incantatrix Treatmonk-God uber-builds with Gouda-Factory levels of cheese. Even if you come up with a single build, it will really only be probably effective against a single type of wizard and the wizard usually could involve more cheese(with PoA/Shapechange, even up to Pun-Pun level of cheese) into his build(or spell selection or item selection or whatever) to kill the target.

Which is a round-about way of saying that this sort of thread is kind of meaningless and the best we can come up with is lists such as that of Telonious of what you can except to overcome in order to kill the wizard.

Oslecamo
2009-07-24, 05:38 PM
I feel that this situation is similar. If we don't include the fact that the Wizard is a super-genius then we're overseeing a ton of options he *should* have foreseen and as such, even if someone comes up with a way to kill a wizard, it's not really 'killing the wizard' and more 'wizard committing suicide because he didn't do XYZ'.

He may have 30 int, but he dumped wis and cha along the way. Wich means he's really smart, but doesn't have a lot of common sense or even sense of self-preservation. So he will commit mistakes along the way. Only high int doesn't give you the ultimate planner.



And we run into another problem again. "20th level Wizard" is a huuuge category of races, builds, feats and items. We can go from uber-Varsuuvius evocation specialist level of dumb up to Tippy Incantatrix Treatmonk-God uber-builds with Gouda-Factory levels of cheese. Even if you come up with a single build, it will really only be probably effective against a single type of wizard and the wizard usually could involve more cheese(with PoA/Shapechange, even up to Pun-Pun level of cheese) into his build(or spell selection or item selection or whatever) to kill the target.


Except that if we're going by those levels of cheese, may as well just pull out a candle of invocation and then everybody can have all the cheese possible.

The wizard who has everything only exists in theory land. In practise, the wizard doesn't have unlimited time to set everything at his leisure, and he's not the only creature with big brains in the multiverse.

Frosty
2009-07-24, 06:30 PM
Also, there are lots of times the Wizard can't run away. Force the wizard to go to the problem by having him want to SAVE something else being attacked by a monster, and then disallow Astral Projection.

There, now if the Wizard runs away, he loses because he could not protect his objective.

Grommen
2009-07-24, 06:45 PM
Pit Fiends, Dragons, Golems, Solars, assassins. All good.

I think getting stared down by a CR 25 Beholder might do the trick. Specialy if he just teleports next to said wizard look right at him.

I've never had a problem killing anyone I DM for. I have a far harder time keeping them alive to be honest. Even high level characters can die pretty easy. Coarse we don't go all out to be unstoppable. We like have hard fights, and tuff BBEG's.

You know this person better than all of us. Your the DM for him. What is his weakness? He got a passion for the ladies? Drinks? Hoards Money? He is human. He has emotions. They drive him in one way or the other. Over paranoid freakish bastards trust no one and have no friends. Thuss they have a tendency to get killed because no one covers their back side. Over trusting people have too many friends and they "trust". Why would he out of the blue decide to spy on his closest friends? This dude a mob boss or something?

Best way I've found to kill a spell caster is by grinding them down. You don't hit the wizard right after he has ran down his spellbook after a rest. You nail him just before bed time after he has fought a war, or been out adventuring all day. And as a DM you push the wizard to blow out spells before hand. Hoards of baddies all day to take out those pesky high level spells, and contingencies. I know, no fighter can kill a wizard. So send 20 before you send the 1.

Remember Bad guys have time to plan as well. They think, and when they do they think in twisted evil ways.

"Save the women you love or Suffer the Little Children!", you never know when some sick bastard is going to come up with a twisted plan like this?

Khatoblepas
2009-07-24, 06:50 PM
It's a useless question anyway. A more proper one is "Has anyone been plotting to kill me from <the time he last activated COP>?". Otherwise you can get situations where you can have someone actively wanting to kill you and the answer being 'yes' only in situations where he's say, coming up with a battle plan(with a really literal interpretation of the question).

Okay then, let's extrapolate this hole further.

You have three individuals. Yourself (likewise a 20th level Wizard), your cohort (Stabby mckilldeath, a Spellthief/Bard/Unseen Seer/Sublime Chord/Arcane Trickster, also with 9th level spells) who will join with the wizard and be the assassin, and the Spymaster (with the Sending spell), the one immune to divinations. He is previously mindraped to be unquestionably loyal to you.

You all plan together, in a dead magic demiplane, with one exit, keyed to only you three. You are planning to kill A wizard, but not this particular wizard. Through debate and deliberation, you find out which wizard is the one that poses the most of a threat, which is your target. This way, no divination spells can penetrate to you since A) You are in a dead magic zone and B) You haven't plotted the death of any particular wizard until you entered the dead magic zone. Noone can get to your location. You plot only when in that area. Once you finish your plan, you all come out, and you and your cohort are Mindraped to be NG, without any knowledge of your plan, and you have a contingency (mindrape), to when the Spymaster sends the sending spell with the command word to activate your contingency. Make sure to cast Mind Blank beforehand, too. So when the wizard next divinates you as the plotter, he Scries... and finds a NG wizard working with orphans and flowers and rainbows. Bonus points for spreading rumours about someone disguised as you (the Spymaster) performing really, really evil deeds. In fact, do that anyway, since you will need to be as plausibly deniable as possible. Stage something so that the Wizard sees the Spymaster thinly disguised as you.

At this point, a player would think that you are being framed, especially if a whole town knows that you are actually the kindly old sage (*coughmindrapethemcough*). Let the Wizard find out about Spymasters and their immunity to divinations and the only seeing the cover identity. They're intelligent. They can put two and two together.

So now they're on a false lead, and your NG Stabby McKilldeath is there waiting, with his 9th level spells and PC attracting powers to aid your wizard in the task of finding out who's going to kill him. And since he's NG, he has nothing to fear! Good guys can't kill him, it's against their code.

The wizard will run out of spells eventually. You just have to take your time and wait, wait for the right time when the wizard slips up, loses all his contingencies and needs to recast them. He trusts Stabby implicitly, since he's not plotting to kill him.

Watch, and wait. The Spymaster looks on at a distance, being the friendly innkeeper, the damsel in distress, the merchant. Then, on that fateful day when the wizard is out of luck, and beaten down, he whisks himself and his party off.. sleeps... and the Spymaster sends out the contingency call. Stabby wakes up, their mind restored, and their alignment. Boosted Greater Dispel Magic happens. The wizard is helpless.

And dies, the victim of a horrible, horrible murder. Hopefully Stabby brought his Antimagic Shackles or can cast Antimagic Field! You'll need them if you don't think you can get past his contingencies. Then, bind his soul and GET OUT OF THERE, before anyone figures out what's going on. Alt

And when he's dead, the Spymaster sends you a message. You wake up from your Mindraping, restored and safe in the knowledge that the Wizard is dead.

Oh, and if the Wizard casts CoP to find out if anyone's plotting against him?

What if the Spymaster was the You behind this endevour? Then at no point could the wizard find out.

If there any holes in this, I'd like to know. There probably is.Magic is just that good. B3 Of course, this gets easier or harder depending on the personality of the wizard in question.

Of course, noone has stated the particular wizard, so this Xanatos Gambit will be dismissed so easily, even after working really hard on it. It's a shame, really. People just don't get that wizards are people too, and people make mistakes, and are flawed individuals. Think about it in terms of the wizard not just being a machine that casts spells. Can we get a particular wizard to defeat here?

Frosty
2009-07-24, 07:34 PM
What would one do to defeat Elminster, for example? He's higher than ECL 20, but he's also nowhere near optimized.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-24, 07:40 PM
When I want to kill stuff I use Lilith. She's good at it;

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118435

Gorbash
2009-07-24, 08:19 PM
A level 20 rouge with high bluff, two weapon fighting. Become the wizard's friend. Then when the time is right stab him many times.

Unless, there's a spell that warns you in advance if a rogue were about to attempt a sneak attack on you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm).



I think getting stared down by a CR 25 Beholder might do the trick. Specialy if he just teleports next to said wizard look right at him.

Coincidentally, there is a spell that completely shuts down this tactic, Ray Deflection. Imagine what that does. And Beholder can't use his other Eye Rays if his central eye is open and produces Anti-Magic.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-24, 08:33 PM
And Beholder can't use his other Eye Rays if his central eye is open and produces Anti-Magic.
Not entirely true. An ascended beholder (DvR 0) or abomination beholder (again DvR 0) can antimagic someone AND use its eye rays within the AMF.

DragonBaneDM
2009-07-24, 08:39 PM
How about a god?

There are stats for Asmodeus out there. I'm sure that'd be nice. Oh. Or Pun Pun. But you wouldn't resort to that now would you? :P

Myiven
2009-07-24, 08:46 PM
In terms of pure numbers and rule crunching, I doubt I could come up with any sure-fire way to defeat a wizard. I don't know the rules well enough.

If it's a matter of coming up with an unwinnable encounter for your players, GM fiat works fine, but the players will get mopey and disinterested.

If it's a matter of coming up with a "nigh-unwinnable" encounter for your players, subtlety tends to work better than number crunching.

I'd introduce some kind of slowly mind-altering agent to the wizard's significant other, slowly changing them from normal to homicidal. The agent could be viral, magical, parasitical, or none of the above, but able to be detected. Several months later, if it is undetected, in the middle of the night the wizard's significant other stabs them to death.

I admit I'm more a fan of intrigue and heavy roleplaying than spell-slinging and combat. In fact, I abandoned the d20 platform for my games, though I still like a lot about D&D.

quick_comment
2009-07-25, 01:27 AM
The best way to defeat a wizard is to use wish to teleport yourself through is defenses to him as he sleeps, using surelife to defeat his traps and then sneak attacking the bejeezus out of him.

Frosty
2009-07-25, 01:40 AM
Send enough epic monsters at him and he'll die. Really. Like I said, especially send monsters with Spell Stowaway.

Oslecamo
2009-07-25, 02:09 AM
There, now if the Wizard runs away, he loses because he could not protect his objective.

Blasphemy! Everybody knows that wizards are greedy bastards that care only about themselves and wouldn't think twice before running away and leaving their loved ones to deadly peril.:smalltongue:

No, really, how viable is the contigency-teleport away wizard when he's worcking with a party? Sure he can teleport away from everything, but his teammates aren't gonna be particularly happy about it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-25, 02:28 AM
My Joker Bard, found in my sig, as someone mentioned, was specifically tailored for just such a task.

Of course, he's more of a mastermind BBEG, he doesn't do any of the killing directly. He might start a world war against the wizards, get every major religion pissed off enough at them to attack, then laugh while the fun continues, but he won't, personally, attack them.

It's a rather indirect method of attacking people, but one which can be difficult to appropriately plan for.

BlueWizard
2009-07-25, 03:54 AM
I usually use other NPC types to fight PCs of power. I then have a plethora of characters to use as the bad guys, without having to use predictable monsters every time that most players know.

PId6
2009-07-25, 04:36 AM
I usually use other NPC types to fight PCs of power. I then have a plethora of characters to use as the bad guys, without having to use predictable monsters every time that most players know.
Isn't that just handing out free loot? If you're making them sufficiently equipped to be a challenge, they're going to give out sufficient gold to topple the WBL tables completely.

Lysander
2009-07-25, 09:17 AM
One word: Foresight.

Foresight only lasts 10 minutes a level. So that's only a 3 and 1/2 hour duration. Unless he's using all his 9th level slots on Foresight you have a pretty good chance of catching him without it. And if he does use all his slots on foresight, that means if you wait towards the end of the day he'll have few or none level 9 spells left.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-25, 09:34 AM
Blasphemy! Everybody knows that wizards are greedy bastards that care only about themselves and wouldn't think twice before running away and leaving their loved ones to deadly peril.:smalltongue:

No, really, how viable is the contigency-teleport away wizard when he's worcking with a party? Sure he can teleport away from everything, but his teammates aren't gonna be particularly happy about it.

This is true. In a long-running game, I thought I would be clever with contingency and set it up to teleport my character back to his lair. My character ended up being teleported at the worst possible time, leaving his companions high and dry.

He spent the next few rounds getting the party in one place which would have gone much swifter if he hadn't just teleported miles away.

obnoxious
sig

Gorbash
2009-07-25, 09:53 AM
Foresight only lasts 10 minutes a level. So that's only a 3 and 1/2 hour duration. Unless he's using all his 9th level slots on Foresight you have a pretty good chance of catching him without it. And if he does use all his slots on foresight, that means if you wait towards the end of the day he'll have few or none level 9 spells left.

If a 20th lvl wizard has Caster Level of only 20, then yeah... But since there are so many ways of increasing it, then no.

Consider the following:

Ring of Arcane Might (+1 CL)
Archmage's Spell Power (+1 CL)
Robe of Arcane Might (+1 CL)
Create Magic Tattoo (+1 CL)
Spell Enhancer (+2 CL)
Some Ranks in UMD + Bead of Karma (+4 CL)

And slap onto it an Extend (Rod of Extend or Extend Spell + Metamagic School Focus) and you've got Foresight with 10 hours duration. This is nothing cheesy or far-fetched, just a standard gear and ways of increasing CL that every high lvl wizard should have.

PId6
2009-07-25, 09:54 AM
Foresight only lasts 10 minutes a level. So that's only a 3 and 1/2 hour duration. Unless he's using all his 9th level slots on Foresight you have a pretty good chance of catching him without it. And if he does use all his slots on foresight, that means if you wait towards the end of the day he'll have few or none level 9 spells left.
It's quite easy to get it all day long. Metamagic Rod of Extend raises it to 7 hours per casting, and a few Pearls of Power 9 gives you enough slots to have Foresight up 24/7 AND have other 9th level spells.

Ninja'd!

tiercel
2009-07-26, 12:46 AM
I guess part of the question here is ... what level 20 wizard is this beast supposed to face?

Are we talking about a Wiz5/FBI3/KGB4/CIA2/ArcanePlumber3/LordoftheDance2/KitchenSink1 completely optimized for paranoia, or are we talking about a "garden variety" adventuring wizard (to the degree such a thing exists)?

The latter is a lot less likely than the former to:

1) Have a contingency keyed to teleport away "whenever I am attacked" (or similar), since his job is to *get into* combat

2) Have multiple/many contingency spells prepared / on scrolls in case his active contingency is activated and thus used up

3) Have foresight actually running 24/7, as opposed to "during the active adventuring day"

In general, wizards are really really good at X if they are heavily prepared (in spell selection/gear/PrC/etc) for X, and less good if they aren't prepared. A paranoia-optimized wizard might be hard to bring down without DM fiat, but isn't going to be very exciting to play on adventures either.

PId6
2009-07-26, 12:58 AM
2) Have multiple/many contingency spells prepared / on scrolls in case his active contingency is activated and thus used up
Hmm, that gives me an idea. Can you have contingent Contingency?

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-26, 03:24 AM
Hmm, that gives me an idea. Can you have contingent Contingency?

Contingent Celerity isn't bad for this.

obnoxious
sig

Callista
2009-07-26, 05:06 AM
Best opponent: Another level 20 wizard. :D

PId6
2009-07-26, 05:30 AM
Best opponent: Another level 20 wizard. :D
Better opponent: A level 30 wizard.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-26, 08:32 AM
An even better opponent: a CR 26, 40 HD shadow dragon with its sorceror spellcasting, total concealment, energy drain breath, a SR of 55 (easily doable for a dragon), extraordinary spell aim, antimagic aura and a contingency to d-door to the location of another contingency or immediate action magic when that magic is used.

Wizard's contingency tries to go off and antimagicked dragon suddenly arrives. :smalltongue:

Thelas
2009-07-26, 09:31 AM
How to kill a Wiz 20? A Ftr 20 with an antimagic field magic item.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-26, 09:46 AM
How to kill a Wiz 20? A Ftr 20 with an antimagic field magic item.

Until he gets blown away by an Orb for a few thousand damage...

Korivan
2009-07-26, 09:57 AM
How to kill a Wiz 20? A Ftr 20 with an antimagic field magic item.

easy fix for the wizard, summon elder elemental/constructs/certain undead

Anyways, how does this thread keep coming up. Every time a challenge like this would appear it changes based on what build the wizard took. Lets face it, the amount of spellcasting type of feats (not even including metamagic), prestige classes, magic items, and spells out their, its pretty darn hard to pinpoint what the wizard is good at just by looking at them. Whereas if you see a half-orc foaming at the mouth wielding a great axe you can kinda guess where its strong point lies and act accordenly. Not to mention there are ways to swap out spells for other ones like Alacritous Cogitation, so even if you do catch the wiz off guard theres no gurantee he can't prepare on the spot. Its not that killing a 20+ wizard is impossible, it is. In general, you need either someone to act as thier counter-point (another caster of similar or near level that can counterspell or nuetralize the first caster.). The element of surprise is important but not always a must if you can bypass teleport. A large enough force can negate any tactics. After all, if you bash the square peg it will go in the round hole eventually.

If your a DM and a level 20 wizard, or Cleric, or any other caster that gains immense power is wreaking your campaign the answere is simple. Stop campaigns that go that far. Try to a new campaign. Or ban wizards and clerics, or whatever and go for a more low-magic caster campaign.

Eldariel
2009-07-26, 10:23 AM
A truly prepared Wizard isn't going to die unless you can somehow breach his private demiplane (I think you need Breaching Obelisk [Planar Handbook] for that). This is not a campaign wrecker, it's simply using the spells given in PHB to their fullest potential (and the reason it's different from Candle of Invocation Wish-loop is that there are no loops or magic items or any such involved; it's simply casting Wizard's spells and benefitting of their effect, although Rod of Greater Extend certainly does make it less expensive on spell slots - of course, it's worth noting that Candle of Invocation is simply an cheapish version of a 9th level arcane spell).

And yeah, anti-magic fielded Fighter is worthless as he removed himself the ability to match the Wizard in any regard thus rendering him unable to reach the Wizard. Hell, anything in an anti-magic field that's affected itself is pretty much worthless vs. a Wizard 'cause it means the creature lacks teleportation, scrying, dispelling and similar critical tools thus being unable to follow & track the Wizard and remove the defenses he cannot breach.


There was a thread on actually killing a paranoid Wizard in Char Ops and turns out it's possible, but pretty damn hard (and I don't think it factored in the Contact Other Plane Spell-lists and preparations and such). Too bad I cannot locate it right now; I'll wait and see if Tidesinger could provide the link, 'cause it pretty much /threads this sorry topic.

Korivan
2009-07-26, 10:38 AM
In response to something Eldariel said, and is even in the OOTS comic strip. Get a ancient dragon or someother high powered creature not reliant on magic, make a anti-magic field surround all of it using multiple AMF or an epic version. Thus, as Rich B. put it on pg. 627... "It appears that you cease to be a mighty wizard and become a fragile pointy-eared monkey. While I?. I am still a dragon." One of my favorite quotes from this comic. :smallsmile:

Jalor
2009-07-26, 11:21 AM
Adamantine Horror? It gets Disjunction as a SLA at will, along with Disintegrate and Implosion. It's CR 9, so an appropriate encounter for a 20th level PC could be an arbitrarily large number of them. What's a Wizard to do against 9001 Disjunctions and 9001 Disintegrates in the surprise round?


Oh right, Celerity.

Eldariel
2009-07-26, 12:50 PM
Adamantine Horror? It gets Disjunction as a SLA at will, along with Disintegrate and Implosion. It's CR 9, so an appropriate encounter for a 20th level PC could be an arbitrarily large number of them. What's a Wizard to do against 9001 Disjunctions and 9001 Disintegrates in the surprise round?


Oh right, Celerity.

+win Initiative. I don't think Adamantine Horrors can beat the +25 from Moment of Prescience, or hell, the +5 from Nerveskitter, +4 from Hummingbird and +4 from Elven Racial Sub along with pimped out Elven Dex (as long as Wizard has Imp. Init; +8 is nothing to scoff at, even if it's like to lose to Wizard). Killing them is a bit harder though, although I suppose liberal application of Time Stop and Gate does that handily given that Disjunction doesn't affect summons.

Given their low HP, a chained Orb of Fire with some metamagic applied to it would also make for shape-annihilating them. But yeah, I don't expect a Wizard to exactly want to duke it out (in Shapechange) with Disjunction Machines; only so many Disjunctions you can counter/misdirect.


Korivan: Then again, V isn't exactly the paragon of what a Wizard can do and the comic bends the rules for comedy... V doesn't prepare Contingency or know his Teleports (which incidentially would've bailed him the hell out vs. that Dragon - or just Walls of Force). Also, the Forcecage should've arguably been AMF proof too which woulda made the Dragon imprison itself. Oh, and V isn't a level 20 Wizard (even the Super V failed to truly utilize level 20 Wizard mojo, let alone what could be done with Epic but we can account that to its impatience).

But yeah. The basic problem of that plan is that nothing moves fast enough to compete with teleportation while under AMF, and basically nothing can penetrate Force Walls while under AMF, and very, very few things shift planes while under AMF and Anticipate Teleport blocks teleporting and AMFing as an option so getting the AMF around a Wizard (especially without his Contingency triggering or him being behind Prismatic Wall or such) is practically impossible.


P.s: This is to take nothing from the comic - I love it and don't mind rules being broken for hilarity. Just, the comic is hardly an accurate representation of how D&D classes measure up against one another.

SinsI
2009-07-26, 01:18 PM
Well, if Psionic works in anti-magic aura, a high level Illithid psion with an AMF item is a good canditate.

Korivan
2009-07-26, 01:34 PM
"V isn't the paragon of wizards"

So very true. That was merely an example of what people have been using since 2nd edition. But all those characters have something PC's rearely ever get...the power of plot. Look at Xykon, with the partial list and a few craft contingent items, any number of PC groups could take him down, but yet he persists. When a thread like this appears the poster should have a specific wizard build that they want to take on. V, or rather a optimised evoker would be a good start. These threads do nothing but generate repedative redarick.

Eldariel
2009-07-26, 01:51 PM
"V isn't the paragon of wizards"

So very true. That was merely an example of what people have been using since 2nd edition. But all those characters have something PC's rearely ever get...the power of plot. Look at Xykon, with the partial list and a few craft contingent items, any number of PC groups could take him down, but yet he persists. When a thread like this appears the poster should have a specific wizard build that they want to take on. V, or rather a optimised evoker would be a good start. These threads do nothing but generate repedative redarick.

The reason the same defenses are always brought up is that they're derived purely of the Wizard's spell list he'll have access to unless he's banned non-Evocation non-Enchantment schools. As those defenses are available and the Wizards are Einsteins, it seems logical for them to utilize those defensive spells and tactics to at least a decent effect. They're universally available and so need to be dealt with if any level 20 Wizard slaying is going to happen.


Therefore, a thread like this needs to start by figuring out, how to kill a Wizard with Contingency, Celerity, Craft Contingent Spell, Astral Projection+Plane Shift, Foresight and Moment of Prescience on along with the weaker, basic protective buffs (Mind Blank, Mirror Images, Blurs, Mage Armors, Invisibilities, you know the drill) and basic visibility buffs like Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Prying Eyes, Detect Magic, etc. along with prescient information through Contact Other Plane-line of effects, because given no limitations but "3.5 WoTC published material" means that basically every Wizard on level 20 should have constant access at least to those for defensive purposes.

And if trying to kill a level 20 Wizard, you should assume he at least has basic competence ('cause he's level 20) - else the thread has no point to start with 'cause anyone can just say "I Sneak Attack the unprepared Wizard who doesn't use protective buffs". There's no need for a thread on that. The whole thread is pointless unless you assume the Wizard makes at least basic attempts at staying alive. If you don't want to deal with all the defenses (Foresight+Celerity and Craft Contingent Spell are both nigh' unpregnable defenses), the OP needs to specify thusly. If he doesn't, we should assume the Wizard is serious about not dying and we should try to penetrate those defenses.


Short version: For the thread to have a point, barring other definitions in the OP, we should assume Wizard using at least hour/level and Extended 10 min/level buffs with a level 20 gear and thus focus on getting through those defenses.

Alternatively, as we pretty much know we aren't going to be able to do that without fighting fire with fire or a really big chunk of ice, we should inform the OP of that and instead ask him to provide a set of guidelines that's doable (and suggest what the problems in the original question are).

tiercel
2009-07-26, 03:25 PM
Therefore, a thread like this needs to start by figuring out, how to kill a Wizard with Contingency, Celerity, Craft Contingent Spell, Astral Projection+Plane Shift, Foresight and Moment of Prescience on along with the weaker, basic protective buffs (Mind Blank, Mirror Images, Blurs, Mage Armors, Invisibilities, you know the drill) and basic visibility buffs like Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Prying Eyes, Detect Magic, etc. along with prescient information through Contact Other Plane-line of effects, because given no limitations but "3.5 WoTC published material" means that basically every Wizard on level 20 should have constant access at least to those for defensive purposes.

Well... I don't know about you, but, for one, a wizard who does nothing but sit around inside a personal locked Demiplane of Mineness astral projecting everywhere is pretty much not even a part of the game anymore. Enabling an almost literal "God Mode" for the game is cheesetastic and the DM doesn't have to allow it, either by restricting/banning use of the spell outright (in the extreme case), having plenty of githyanki mercenaries around for the disposal of people who try it, not having tiny personal My Very Own Plane bubbles exist in his campaign universe, or the simple remedy of "what makes you think you got here first" -- if it really does make a wizard so invulnerable, why hasn't one of the original wizards who achieved the feat been astral projecting around warning off/knocking off any wizard (including the PC) who starts getting up into the teens of levels?

Granting carte blanche to supplement books means that you're asking for trouble, and Craft Contingent and celerity are trouble. I mean, I'd like to think that there is a *reason* that "You can use only one contingency spell at a time" -- offering a feat to obviate this restriction just seems abusive. At the very least, if your wizard has it, pretty much everyone with enough cash has access to it as potential resource too, just like magical items. Ugh. And celerity? "Oh, hello, who needs time stop when I have this 4th level spell, which is an immediate action?"

Wizards have plenty of defenses as it is, you don't have to be a Santa Claus DM and let your PCs cherry-pick all the most obviously least-playtested options from their groaning WotC bookcase.

(Also greater arcane sight only lasts 1 min/lvl and can't be permanencied.)

(Also contact other plane isn't all that, since it has a minimum 10% chance of giving a bad answer, and you can't moment of prescience your way around the Int check because it's not an opposed check. You could try and brute force your way through by having lots of castings at lower Int DCs and asking the same question over and over to different entities and taking the majority vote, but given that such powers "resent such contact" is spamming them an idea worthy of your presumably supra-mega-genius?)


As for the rest, well, some wizardly defenses are ablative -- a clever foe will try to get some disposable minions to trigger things like (greater) prying eyes and contingency etc., not to mention wear through spells and resources generally -- no one is going to want to face a wizard with a 100% full spell load ready to go. This means either the entire fight sequence needs to take place someplace teleport-proof, or someplace the wizard won't *want* to just poof out of, due to plot.

If you are going to just *assume* that the wizard can have any spell he wants active right before the fight, then, gee, yeah, maybe you shouldn't be surprised it's going to be hard to take down the wizard. Any reasonable foe is going to take what precautions it can to be (1) not ambushed by a fully-buffed wizard and/or (2) to either attack the wizard with sufficiently little warning that the full buff suite can't be brought up, or to attack the wizard with enough waves that buffs are worn down.

Frosty
2009-07-26, 04:40 PM
To kill a Wizard, do what Zykon did: Force the Wizard to come to YOU because you have something he wants. Really, that's how Zykon won against Durokan if you've read Start of Darkness. See, once he can't run away, the things you have to worry about is cut by SO much.

quick_comment
2009-07-26, 05:18 PM
To kill a Wizard, do what Zykon did: Force the Wizard to come to YOU because you have something he wants. Really, that's how Zykon won against Durokan if you've read Start of Darkness. See, once he can't run away, the things you have to worry about is cut by SO much.

Who is Zykon?

Frosty
2009-07-26, 05:21 PM
Xykon. Eh. It works.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-26, 05:33 PM
To kill a Wizard, do what Zykon did: Force the Wizard to come to YOU because you have something he wants. Really, that's how Zykon won against Durokan if you've read Start of Darkness. See, once he can't run away, the things you have to worry about is cut by SO much.

If you can fend off the myraid multitude of proxies/minions/Astral Projections/Simulacrums that he'll dispatch to claim what you have, that does work - but if you're powerful enough to do so, you're probably a full caster yourself.

Kilremgor
2009-07-26, 06:47 PM
Just a joke about truly evil solution for extra-killing irony.
You need to homerule one ability in.

Make a lot of dream-related and prophecy-related fluff about your BBEG. Strange dreams about him. Strange visions of future. Distant, unknown worlds. Destruction, pain, madness, world's magic gone wild, broken dreams, etc.

He can be physically anything. He just needs to be something that can live up to start of its turn (or go first). He should be ranged attacker/caster with some dispel capability.

Then, Wizard meets him... confident of victory.

Then when his action comes... just say: Planar Bubble: Dal Quor.

Then, slowly and methodologically strip wizards of all defenses, and kill him with repeated ranged attacks or spells.
You have 10 rounds of free time to do that.

Just a joke ;)
But a serious point: cheesy classes, aside from the cases where player makes a mistake, can only be defeated by other cheese classes or, sometimes, by exhausting them.

Eldariel
2009-07-26, 06:58 PM
Well... I don't know about you, but, for one, a wizard who does nothing but sit around inside a personal locked Demiplane of Mineness astral projecting everywhere is pretty much not even a part of the game anymore. Enabling an almost literal "God Mode" for the game is cheesetastic and the DM doesn't have to allow it, either by restricting/banning use of the spell outright (in the extreme case), having plenty of githyanki mercenaries around for the disposal of people who try it, not having tiny personal My Very Own Plane bubbles exist in his campaign universe, or the simple remedy of "what makes you think you got here first" -- if it really does make a wizard so invulnerable, why hasn't one of the original wizards who achieved the feat been astral projecting around warning off/knocking off any wizard (including the PC) who starts getting up into the teens of levels?

Granting carte blanche to supplement books means that you're asking for trouble, and Craft Contingent and celerity are trouble. I mean, I'd like to think that there is a *reason* that "You can use only one contingency spell at a time" -- offering a feat to obviate this restriction just seems abusive. At the very least, if your wizard has it, pretty much everyone with enough cash has access to it as potential resource too, just like magical items. Ugh. And celerity? "Oh, hello, who needs time stop when I have this 4th level spell, which is an immediate action?"

Wizards have plenty of defenses as it is, you don't have to be a Santa Claus DM and let your PCs cherry-pick all the most obviously least-playtested options from their groaning WotC bookcase.

(Also greater arcane sight only lasts 1 min/lvl and can't be permanencied.)

(Also contact other plane isn't all that, since it has a minimum 10% chance of giving a bad answer, and you can't moment of prescience your way around the Int check because it's not an opposed check. You could try and brute force your way through by having lots of castings at lower Int DCs and asking the same question over and over to different entities and taking the majority vote, but given that such powers "resent such contact" is spamming them an idea worthy of your presumably supra-mega-genius?)


As for the rest, well, some wizardly defenses are ablative -- a clever foe will try to get some disposable minions to trigger things like (greater) prying eyes and contingency etc., not to mention wear through spells and resources generally -- no one is going to want to face a wizard with a 100% full spell load ready to go. This means either the entire fight sequence needs to take place someplace teleport-proof, or someplace the wizard won't *want* to just poof out of, due to plot.

If you are going to just *assume* that the wizard can have any spell he wants active right before the fight, then, gee, yeah, maybe you shouldn't be surprised it's going to be hard to take down the wizard. Any reasonable foe is going to take what precautions it can to be (1) not ambushed by a fully-buffed wizard and/or (2) to either attack the wizard with sufficiently little warning that the full buff suite can't be brought up, or to attack the wizard with enough waves that buffs are worn down.

Nevertheless, all that is a direct result of the Wizard's Int and spell list. If you want to kill an actual level 20 Wizard, you have to deal with all of those (as for Contact, you need 40 Int to make it without fail, which is doable without Polymorph though difficult).

If the OP wants to kill a level 20 Wizard, we have to defeat all this. If OP wants to defeat a gimped level 20 Wizard, that's a different matter but I don't recall reading "I want to defeat a level 20 Wizard who wants to be killed" in the OP.

Really, Astral Project+Plane Shift does nothing to reduce the Wizard's chances of interacting with the world or anything - as far as he's concerned, he's still the same guy he always does and does all the same things he always does. The only difference is, he's now immortal with regards to mundane threats.

And how the heck do you get a Wizard to fight some mooks not worth his time to kill? More importantly, how do you get them to trigger his contingencies? Do you equip them with Anti-Magic Fields, natural True Seeing and Flight or something? Greater Prying Eyes are basically a bunch of eyes with True Seeing flying around for hour/level; provided Mooks can penetrate Invisibility ('cause the Wizard mite as well) and detect the eyes before they're detected, they might be able to do something about them but that's a lot of "ifs" and quite the mooks. And if an eye is encountered, the Wizard obviously knows of the mooks and can choose to either avoid them (flying on his Phantom Steed at 240' fly-speed, it's gonna take a Colossal Dragon to chase him and that's before using magical modes of transportation) or encounter them (a single high-level summon should clean it up without the Wizard dirtying his hands, or few Metamagicked Orbs or such).

Doc Roc
2009-07-26, 07:13 PM
Seriously, I'm going to be blunt enough to shatter brittle things here. Eldariel isn't just right. He's the voice of a long-standing examination of the problem through-out the CO community. I'm deeply frustrated that your first reaction to his line of thinking is to decry him for over-thinking. Killing wizards who play to their int scores is either almost impossible, or monstrously difficult.

I... Have spent considerable time on this problem, and my kung fu is pretty strong. I believe a collection of links is in order. Is the OP still checking this thread? If so, if we provide some links to existing discussions, can you first-post them?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-26, 07:30 PM
Killing a lvl 20 wizard is not that hard;


Step 1: Wish/Miracle the wizard's comatose body from his private demiplane to your location while he's astrally projecting. As he is not conscious, he automatically fails will saves. Miracle works regardless of local conditions, Wish is universal so cannot be limited by limited magic.
Step 2: Stab.

Jack_Simth
2009-07-26, 07:42 PM
Killing a lvl 20 wizard is not that hard;


Step 1: Wish/Miracle the wizard's comatose body from his private demiplane to your location while he's astrally projecting. As he is not conscious, he automatically fails will saves. Miracle works regardless of local conditions, Wish is universal so cannot be limited by limited magic.
Step 2: Stab.
Step 1 potentially fails. See, while the unconscious are always considered willing, that's not quite the same thing as voluntarily giving up a save, which is what you're trying to make it mean.

Mind you, if the person casting the Wish/Miracle has a decent primary casting stat (at least in line with the amount of gouda the Wizard is using), it still has a very decent chance of working anyway, but it is something to consider.

Doc Roc
2009-07-26, 07:42 PM
People insist unconscious is willing, but I've never seen the rules-cite.
Second, you need to know where they are to wish them some place else.
Third, it's not clear that wish-transporation isn't similar to teleport.
Fourth, Wish does not explicitly ignore local conditions.
Fifth, SR applies, which means if I am spell-immune, which I likely will be, you fail.

quick_comment
2009-07-26, 07:43 PM
Killing a lvl 20 wizard is not that hard;


Step 1: Wish/Miracle the wizard's comatose body from his private demiplane to your location while he's astrally projecting. As he is not conscious, he automatically fails will saves. Miracle works regardless of local conditions, Wish is universal so cannot be limited by limited magic.
Step 2: Stab.

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

The wizard can PaO his unconscious body into a golem, with magic immunity.

Doc Roc
2009-07-26, 07:47 PM
Beat me to my edit. Or (I think?) he can use flesh to stone on his unconscious body, tuck it somewhere safe, and lay some contingent spell on it using craft contingent spell. At that point, it's not a legal target as it is not a creature properly.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-26, 08:56 PM
If you PaO into a golem, you don't get magic immunity or any other special quality.

If you flesh-to-stone your body, it no longer counts as a creature and spells that affect creatures like your astral projection no longer work on it. So all you accomplish is end your projection and returning to a petrified body. :smalltongue:

quick_comment
2009-07-26, 10:36 PM
If you PaO into a golem, you don't get magic immunity or any other special quality.

If you flesh-to-stone your body, it no longer counts as a creature and spells that affect creatures like your astral projection no longer work on it. So all you accomplish is end your projection and returning to a petrified body. :smalltongue:

No, spells already cast continue to function.

And fine, just include on your flesh to stoned body the following contingent spell:

Trigger: Moved out of the demiplane
Effect: Cast plane shift, move to demiplane.

You can also just get an item that keeps casting shapechange on your body, which you can use to assume golem-form and get the SR

Doc Roc
2009-07-27, 01:06 AM
QC is correct. This is a much abused fact.

Worth mention that properly built, the Paranoid Druid is also scary as hell.

Adamaro
2009-07-27, 01:51 AM
Is the OP still checking this thread? If so, if we provide some links to existing discussions, can you first-post them?
Will do.

As it seems at this point, there are 2 ways to do it:
1. Make wizard got something.
2. Kill him w. between-planar travelling creatures.
3. I still lack -zilla coming into play. (But am thinking about homebrew feat such as Absorb arcana)

The Glyphstone
2009-07-27, 01:53 AM
If you PaO into a golem, you don't get magic immunity or any other special quality.

If you flesh-to-stone your body, it no longer counts as a creature and spells that affect creatures like your astral projection no longer work on it. So all you accomplish is end your projection and returning to a petrified body. :smalltongue:

So how would one protect against having their body Wished into danger? I'm sure you have at least one way to protect yourself if it was your wizard, so to speak.

Doc Roc
2009-07-27, 02:16 AM
We covered three different ways in this thread alone.

On killing deities. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1167312)
On killing wizards. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3821.0)
On safe astral projection. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116975&highlight=chord)

A link to the archetypal paranoid wizard is found in the opening of the killing wizards thread.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-27, 03:16 AM
Unfortunately, you can't get a magic item of shapechange pre-epic; it is an epic magic item and gets the 10x price modifier, in addition to its 460 K gp base cost. You could get a magic item to have less uses/day of course-but then it would not cover the entire day as it would be nonepic at 2 uses per day and still cost 180+ K gp
And even if you shapechange your body into a golem, just how many ways to get supernatural or otherwise SR-no wish are there?

Also unfortunately, you can never block Wish with limited magic; being universal, it belongs to no school of magic and limited magic only blocks schools of magic.

Doc Roc
2009-07-27, 03:37 AM
There's also dead magic zones, which you can roll your body into once your projected. All sorts of good options exist. And how do you know who to wish for, or in fact, that they are astrally projecting in the first place?

There is precisely one good way to get a Su: Wish that I know of, but the issue is that the SR is a function of that portion of Wish's functionality and thus cannot so easily be obviated. In other words, your wish will be Su, but the travel portion explicitly offers SR, which doesn't stop happening.

Oslecamo
2009-07-27, 04:04 AM
3. I still lack -zilla coming into play. (But am thinking about homebrew feat such as Absorb arcana)

What, big badass dragons aren't -zilla enough for you?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-27, 04:26 AM
If you want to split hairs here, fine;

By RAW, your physical body when Astrally Projecting is on the Material Plane. If you move it after the spell is cast and your Astral Projection is ended, by RAW you can never return to it (as you only return to your body's resting place on the Material Plane by the wording of the spell). So no Genesis demiplane for you (unless you want to get stranded as a disembodied soul).

Also, you want to put your comatose body with about 1 mil gp treasure on a 120-ft demiplane conterminous so physically open to the Ethereal? The same plane that is home to greedy Ethereal Dragons and vengeful immortal ghosts and all posessing demons, devils and Yugoloths and any greedy adventurers with Ethereal Jaunt? The plane that has no land mass so your demiplane stands out from as far as the eye can see? You might as well sleep out in the open, with a giant, glowing "Please Steal my Bling and Stab Me" sign over your head. That would be a lot less dangerous.

Oslecamo
2009-07-27, 05:17 AM
Also, you want to put your comatose body with about 1 mil gp treasure on a 120-ft demiplane conterminous so physically open to the Ethereal? The same plane that is home to greedy Ethereal Dragons and vengeful immortal ghosts and all posessing demons, devils and Yugoloths and any greedy adventurers with Ethereal Jaunt? The plane that has no land mass so your demiplane stands out from as far as the eye can see? You might as well sleep out in the open, with a giant, glowing "Please Steal my Bling and Stab Me" sign over your head. That would be a lot less dangerous.

This!:smallbiggrin: The wizard may have 30 int, but he just needs to make a mistake ONCE to be sleeping with the fishes otherwordly cruel hungry monstruosities.

Aharon
2009-07-27, 05:52 AM
Another drawback is that astrally projected wizards can be spirit bound by wu jen. Astral Projection is not dismissible, and per Manual of the planes, returning to your body is always possible, but takes a standard action.

So a lower level Wu Jen could potentially Spirit bind & Trap the Soul him.



Just wanted to repeat that. As I raised many objections that were refuted in the thread on safe astral projection, and JeminiZero didn't refute this one, I would like to know wether he didn't because he was growing bored with refuting me or because it's a legitimate way to threaten a caster of Astral projection.

If you want to, I can quote the relevant section from the MotP.

tiercel
2009-07-27, 06:01 AM
If the OP wants to kill a level 20 Wizard, we have to defeat all this. If OP wants to defeat a gimped level 20 Wizard, that's a different matter but I don't recall reading "I want to defeat a level 20 Wizard who wants to be killed" in the OP.

I was proceeding under the assumption that the OP was a DM looking to challenge a Wiz20 PC. The DM gets to decide just how many optional rules even make it into his game, which means that if Astral Projection immortality is stupid in his game, it doesn't work (or NPCs got there first). If Celerity is stupid in his game, it is banned. If Craft Contingent is a headache, it just isn't allowed (or any reasonably intelligent foe with funds can have as many crafted contingent spells as funds allow, just like any other magic item.)

This is a peril of allowing everything and its mom from as many supplements as possible -- spellcasters benefit much more from extra supplements in the world, since they present many more options all viable for the same character. (Especially divine casters, since they don't even have to spend any time or resources adding Cheestastic Might to their spell book.)


Really, Astral Project+Plane Shift does nothing to reduce the Wizard's chances of interacting with the world or anything - as far as he's concerned, he's still the same guy he always does and does all the same things he always does. The only difference is, he's now immortal with regards to mundane threats.

Why, as a DM, are you obligated to say that there is a perfectly safe little demiplane for a wizard to plane shift into so he can immortally astral project everywhere? First of all, there doesn't have to be any such plane. Second of all, if there are a finite number of such planes, by time the PC wants to cheese it up all of them should already be occupied by NPC wizards from across the multiverse who have come up with the same tiresome idea.


Greater Prying Eyes are basically ...

...ablative. In order for them to be useful, they have to report back to the wizard. So every time an even potential threat shows up to the eyes, that's one less eye because it goes flying back home to Daddy to report. Snow your target under with "white noise" mooks and his eyes will keep reporting back to him -- sooner or later, he won't have any more eyes left. How many times is said wizard going to spam (greater) prying eyes?

The point isn't to sneak past the alarm, it's to set the dang thing off so much it ceases to be useful.

----

Look, if you want to play in a pure RAW every-single-WotC product game, that's your prerogative, but the game will break sixteen million ways to Sunday well before the game ever reaches 20th level. Sane games have a DM who puts on his referee hat to make the game work and inject a bit of common sense -- infinite power combos that break the game just don't make sense. Breaking the game defeats the purpose of playing it, and besides, any infinite/effectively infinite power combo that *would* work for a PC in your campaign should also work for NPCs, and presumably, should *have already* worked for NPCs (unless no NPC, ever, in the history of all multiversal time, has ever achieved sufficient level or an Int score worthy of even casting the spells in question).

Adamaro
2009-07-27, 06:52 AM
... and besides, any infinite/effectively infinite power combo that *would* work for a PC in your campaign should also work for NPCs, and presumably, should *have already* worked for NPCs (unless no NPC, ever, in the history of all multiversal time, has ever achieved sufficient level or an Int score worthy of even casting the spells in question).

And if you do not want to use magic, to defeat the wiz? That's the whole point. NOT using lvl 30 wiz to defeat a lvl 20 wiz. Just a big brown bear, mauling the wiz to death, while his wish spells fizzle due to bear's antimagic coat ...

Eldariel
2009-07-27, 08:13 AM
And if you do not want to use magic, to defeat the wiz? That's the whole point. NOT using lvl 30 wiz to defeat a lvl 20 wiz. Just a big brown bear, mauling the wiz to death, while his wish spells fizzle due to bear's antimagic coat ...

*slap* Magic must defeat magic! You can make some anti-magic behemoth he'll have difficulty killing especially in direct confrontation, but you'll have serious issues giving it versatile, powerful offensive capabilities to actually attack the mage that he cannot trivially negate. Or use a huge brute with huge casting (say, epic Dragon).

Really, magic is so strong fighting a caster without magic is gonna take some wild abilities. Some kind of spawnherd creature sending hordes of fast-moving varying Swarms could be interesting; think Carrier la Starcraft. Maybe have some of the swarms devour magic and maybe have some creatures partially absorb spells that are cast in their vicinity for varying effects and so on. Anyways, to truly challenge the Wizard, you'll need something that can directly challenge their spellcasting capability, be it through their own casting or some insane special abilities.

quick_comment
2009-07-27, 08:53 AM
So how would one protect against having their body Wished into danger? I'm sure you have at least one way to protect yourself if it was your wizard, so to speak.


Thats already been answered. You make it either not a creature, so its not targetable with the transportation version of wish, or you give it infinite SR by shapechanging into a golem.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-27, 10:48 AM
It has also been established that you can't shapechange it except with an epic item.

Also, Astral Projection projects your body and its carried gear. If your carried gear are turned to stone with flesh to stone, the Astral Projection only projects inert stones-let alone what happens to the projection of your body since it is now stone.

Finally, it has been established that your body for Astral Projection must be at the Prime Material, not a private demiplane.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-27, 11:32 AM
Thats already been answered. You make it either not a creature, so its not targetable with the transportation version of wish, or you give it infinite SR by shapechanging into a golem.

I know it has, by certain posters. Belial has refuted/rebutted this line of defense, so I'm curious what Belial's personal solution to such a line of attack would be, because I'm quite certain Belial has already figured one out.

Melamoto
2009-07-27, 12:14 PM
On the matter of -zilla...

The Tarrasque has a very large number of HD for it's CR, and although you can get higher through Dire Animals, i'll stick with it for now, partially due to the special qualities.
First thing to do is to swap out it's 6 choices of toughness. Try to replace them with things like the full Mage Slayer chain of feats.
Give out the Spellwarped template to give it impenetrable SR. Then the Greater Phantom template for good measure and for protection from Orb of X spells (This should work; it isn't a magic effect, it just creates a physical projectile) that haven't been made Transdimensional. Then, go for the Monster of Legend template to pick up immunities as you see fit.
Now you just need a way to be protected from divinations, and to keep the Wizard from running.

I'm not much of a rules master, or a powergamer, so please point out any flaws you find in here.

quick_comment
2009-07-27, 12:16 PM
It has also been established that you can't shapechange it except with an epic item.


So you cast it on yourself, turn into a golem of your choice, cast astral projection, then cast sequester.

If you say sequester doesnt stop spell durations from expiring, then get an item that manifests temporal reiteration on your body each round.

Or get a resetting shapechange trap, and put your body on it.

Or you put your body into a dead magic zone.

Or you carry a rod of absorption on your body.



There are so many ways to defeat wish.

tiercel
2009-07-27, 12:36 PM
And if you do not want to use magic, to defeat the wiz? That's the whole point. NOT using lvl 30 wiz to defeat a lvl 20 wiz. Just a big brown bear, mauling the wiz to death, while his wish spells fizzle due to bear's antimagic coat ...

My point with "NPCs get there first" is not necessarily that you need magic to defeat magic -- my point is abusive, I-automatically-win tactics shouldn't be in your campaign with the reasoning, if nothing else, that if your PC could do it, many other wizards would have already done it and the PC would have never reached 20th level.

If you are going to allow game-breaking things in your game, expect the game to break -- and before 20th level. If you are going to be a "it's OK because it is RAW" then you will have to deal with polymorph-awaken cheese and I-cannot-fail-in-making-cost-free-Faustian-bargains with (greater) planar binding and free infinite wishes.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-27, 12:43 PM
I'm curious what Belial's personal solution to such a line of attack would be, because I'm quite certain Belial has already figured one out.

The most obvious choice is not to use Astral Projection at all; these are so many ways a DM can give you the short end of the stick.

But if you really want to do it? Craft a contingency of Unbinding upon your familiar and leave it behind. Then, after you astrally project, cast Imprisonment upon your body. Suddenly, any enemies need Wish or Miracle merely to find you. Because Imprisonment traps your body deep below the earth, any wish/miracle (or even epic magic) stating "transport to the wizard's body" does not work at all; there is no open space for them to appear in. Any divinations/scrying will merely reveal an utterly lightless, featureless image or not work at all if they create any sort of tangible magical sensor-because they're looking at a place within solid rock beneath the surface of the earth. And unless an enemy already knows you're imprisoned, actually going to the place of your imprisonment where his spells say you are accomplishes nothing; there is nothing for him to see there.

Meanwhile, you're running around via Astral Projection and if you're suddenly defeated and the Astral Projection ends, the Unbinding contingency ends the Imprisonment and you're free to cast stuff again.

PId6
2009-07-27, 12:46 PM
Because Imprisonment traps your body deep below the earth,
But what if someone destroy the earth when you're Astral Projecting? Wouldn't that destroy your body then?

Doc Roc
2009-07-27, 01:19 PM
Demiplanes are rather hard to destroy.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-27, 01:27 PM
Demiplanes are rather hard to destroy.

The earth isn't - just takes a Hulking Hurler to pick it up and throw it into the sun. :)



The most obvious choice is not to use Astral Projection at all; these are so many ways a DM can give you the short end of the stick.

But if you really want to do it? Craft a contingency of Unbinding upon your familiar and leave it behind. Then, after you astrally project, cast Imprisonment upon your body. Suddenly, any enemies need Wish or Miracle merely to find you. Because Imprisonment traps your body deep below the earth, any wish/miracle (or even epic magic) stating "transport to the wizard's body" does not work at all; there is no open space for them to appear in. Any divinations/scrying will merely reveal an utterly lightless, featureless image or not work at all if they create any sort of tangible magical sensor-because they're looking at a place within solid rock beneath the surface of the earth. And unless an enemy already knows you're imprisoned, actually going to the place of your imprisonment where his spells say you are accomplishes nothing; there is nothing for him to see there.

Meanwhile, you're running around via Astral Projection and if you're suddenly defeated and the Astral Projection ends, the Unbinding contingency ends the Imprisonment and you're free to cast stuff again.


And if you were the DM, how would you flatten the poor player who tried this? Even that doesn't seem to protect you from the Wish function of having your body transported to the caster instead of vice versa.

Doc Roc
2009-07-27, 01:57 PM
Wish needs you to specify a target, which means you do need to know where&&who they are..

Aharon
2009-07-27, 02:02 PM
Another drawback is that astrally projected wizards can be spirit bound by wu jen. Astral Projection is not dismissible, and per Manual of the planes, returning to your body is always possible, but takes a standard action.

So a lower level Wu Jen could potentially Spirit bind & Trap the Soul him.


It seems my post was again ignored :smallbiggrin:
Or is it so obvious that I'm wrong/right that nobody thinks it's neccessary to answer me?

quick_comment
2009-07-27, 02:16 PM
It seems my post was again ignored :smallbiggrin:
Or is it so obvious that I'm wrong/right that nobody thinks it's neccessary to answer me?

Its not a danger.

Wu Jen: Spirit Bind! muhahaha!
Wizard: Celerity. Activate item of timeless body.
Wu Jen: What you say!!
Wizard: You have no chance to survive make your time.


Not to mention that it has a 10 minute casting time, requires the wizard's proper name, his alignment, and you have to stop him from escaping, which requires a dimensional anchor.

And if you do all that, for your trouble he drops a disjunction on you and teleports away.

Melamoto
2009-07-27, 02:18 PM
You can "know where they are" via other spells. Whether or not you see them, you know where they are from the spells. Also, can anyone give some good feats for fighting casters for the purposes of the Tarrasquezilla I mentioned earlier?

Edit: Also, breaking of the cord? Wouldn't that work to kill the Astral Wizard?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-27, 03:03 PM
An imprisoned target cannot be freed by Wish or Miracle or any other normal means. Only a Freedom or Unbinding spell cast on the location of their imprisonment can free them.

Also, an imprisoned target can be imprisoned while wearing a third eye conceal (item of mind blank). Then no magic except Metafaculty or epic spells-not even Wish or Miracle-can reveal their location.

So an imprisoned wizard's body whose soul is astrally projecting is perfectly safe if the wizard makes sure no-one is watching while he cast the imprisonment.

This tactic doubles as a very expensive but also very effective method of getting rid of someone. Beat them unconscious, put on them a third eye conceal, cast a delayed imprisonment then plane-shift them. The randomness factor of the plane-shift coupled with the mind blank means no-one can find where they landed save some deities. And once the imprisonment kicks in, no-one can find them to cast Freedom. Good riddance.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 02:34 AM
The Spellwarped Winged Shadow Tarrasque of Legend

{table]Size/Type:|Colossal Aberration
Hit Dice:|48d10+912 (1176 hp)
Initiative:|+13
Speed:|40 ft. (4 squares), Fly 60 ft. (Perfect)
Armor Class:|51 (-8 size, +9 Dex, +37 natural, +3 deflection), touch 11, flat-footed 42
Base Attack/Grapple:|+48/+88
Attack:|Bite +64 melee (4d8+24/18-20/3, Poison)
Full Attack:|Bite +64 melee (4d8+24/18-20/3, Poison) and 2 horns +62 melee (1d10+12) and 2 claws +62 melee (1d12+12) and tail slap +62 melee (3d8+12)
Space/Reach:|30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks:|Augmented critical, frightful presence, improved grab, rush, swallow whole, poison bite (1d6 Str/1d6 Str, DC 53)
Special Qualities:|Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, acid, electricity, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 59, spell absorption, permanent haste, vulnerability to ghost touch, incorporeal jaunt, phantom defence, phantom strike
Saves:|Fort +48, Ref +38, Will +41
Abilities:|Str 59, Dex 28, Con 49, Int 9, Wis 18, Cha 16
Skills:|Listen +12, Search +11, Spot +19, Survival +16 (+18 following tracks)
Feats:|Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, Improved Combat Reflexes, Greater Combat Reflexes, Steadfast Determination, Multi-Attack
Challenge Rating:|27
Alignment:|Neutral Evil[/table]

I understand it is not -entirely- legal by RAW, due to creature types, but as the DM wanting to create a big bad monster, it could do; and the changes make sense in this case, so it's not just "tacking" them on.

And please, point out any weaknesses, mistakes, or other rules violations you see. Books used are MM1 (Tarrasque), 2 (Monster of Legend), 3 (Spellwarped), 5 (Greater Phantom), and SS (Winged).

Aharon
2009-07-28, 03:51 AM
@Quick Comment
One single Wu Jen can't pull it off, I agree. But what if he works in conjunction with an Neraphim Abjurer who uses Otiluke's dispelling sphere (screen?) from Complete mage?
With that spell, you can suppress magic from certain schools for 10 minutes/level, the caster has to make a DC 11+your caster level check.
Using non-cheese methods (such as Consumptive field), you can bump your caster level to 40, if your build is planned for that (and can't do a lot of other things):
Using Arcane Thesis(Otiluke's...), Snowcasting+Frozen Magic (+2 in -40 F areas), Primitive Caster (+1), Earth Spell, that trait from UA that gives you +1 with one school and -1 to all others.
You also need a low level bard to cast Sonorous Hum and Harmonic Chorus (+2) and use Inspire Spellpower (+1)
In addition, you use a spell from the Eberron campaign setting (Swift action, +1 caster level/2 Con Damage, max 5 caster levels), while draconic polymorphed in a Hezrou (Con 31)
Depending on how many schools/subschools of magic you want to block, you might also need a Cleric 7 on standby for casting restoration.

The Tome of Magic contains rules for finding out the personal truename of somebody, it isn't that hard, just takes a while and is costly.

And using the improved magic circle, where you cast the dimensional anchor beforehand, is kind of the self-evident thing to do.

With Otiluke's Dispelling Screen, you block Transmutation. With a second Otiluke's Dispelling Screen, you block Divination. So the caster can't use celerity. It also ends his Shapechange(Dire Tortoise/Minotaur), and his Foresight. Without these spells, he is flat-footed (and probably surprised), and can't get immediate actions.

The only point where I'm still not sure how to pull it of is how to make sure his soul is trapped.
One way would be to have the abjurer use limited wish to lower the mages saving throw by 7.

So, we need a Wu Jen 17, Neraphim (or other Outsider LA+0) Abjurer 17, Cleric 7, Bard 7.
And lots of gold (20000 for the Trap the Soul gem, a high amount for finding out the target's truename).

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 04:20 AM
Some of these posts are bordering off-topic. Yes, fighting Astral Projection is related, but it isn't really what the discussion is about. Especially seeing as most of these methods rely on either multiple people or things that wouldn't be powerful enough to make the Wizard even consider AP as needed anyway.

As far as I can see, there are 3 ways to take down the Wizard.


The Wizard cannot be defeated by normal surprise tactics due to Foresight. However, even if he sees something coming, it is no use if he cannot prevent it. The best way to do this would be to use some kind of delayed attack that would kill him and is based on him, so he cannot dodge it. Normal attacks, he will get a chance to avoid, but Foresight only warns of "harm". The harm itself won't arrive until later, so he can't defend himself against the attack.
Alternatively, there might be a way to kill the Wizard from any distance, including across Planes. The Wizard will not automatically know where you are, because Foresight will only show his death. However, I am stuck as for what could do this.
The Wizard will have vast numbers of protective spells, and will always have the right way to escape. However, get rid of his Spellbook, and he is a 20th level Commoner. This is probably more difficult to do than number 1, because he will obviously have protective enchantments and will use Divination to see if somebody is trying to take it. However, the protective enchantments side can be dealt with without too much difficulty as long as you have access to the right spells or tools, and there may be ways to fool even the sight of Gods with the power of Epic.
The final method is the hardest to do without going into gamebreaking cheese or stupidly high CRs. This is nigh impossible to pull off, but if it can be done, then all else is obsolete: Create a character/creature that can defeat the Wizard regardless of any preparation the Wizard makes, even if the Wizard has infinite time to prepare. This way, even if the Wizard lives, he will flee for his life and never come back, as nothing he can do would defeat the beast. Bare in mind that this assume the Wizards aren't cheesy themselves (Although it that was the case, nothing could win anyway).
Although, there is a slightly different way of doing it, that means it won't need to survive infinite preparation. The creature merely has to fulfil three criteria: Must be able to beat the wizard in a fight, must be able to track (In any way) the Wizard anywhere he goes, and must be able to go anywhere and hunt relentlessly. This way, the Wizard will have to just keep running and running, until he runs out of spells, and gets destroyed by the monster.


Well, that's all I can think of. Anyone got any ideas to manage any of those?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-28, 04:43 AM
Well, there is Doomsday. Phrenic human-shaped advanced tarrasque with items. He's CR 25. He can kill any number of wizards if they stay and fight, regardless of what they do.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 04:47 AM
Pretty appropriately named for the job I guess. Haven't seen the build though, what about him means that he can survive having Orbs of X rapid fired at him across the sky from a Wizard with a Contingency Dimension Door if he gets attacked?
Spell Immunity? Invulnerable? Capable of killing them before they can act?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-28, 05:42 AM
Stats sent. :smallbiggrin:

horngeek
2009-07-28, 06:07 AM
Dragon, with Class levels in... somthing that doesn't involve spellcasting.

Or does. Deal with him the same way that the Black dealt with V.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 06:14 AM
...I see. Still, wouldn't Slay Living have a 5% chance of killing him? (90%ish if the caster is a Fatespinner) Unless there was something I missed. But yeah, that would destroy any caster otherwise. No caster would ever want to face that. Now, we enter the issue of the creature in question being a BBEG...


Dragon, with Class levels in... somthing that doesn't involve spellcasting. Or does.
Levels in Wizard and Ultimate Magus?


Deal with him the same way that the Black dealt with V.
Problem is, most high level Wizards could fly out of distance while hurling Orbs.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-28, 06:17 AM
Hello good sirs ...

I am a DM in search of a non-PC creature (3.5 ed), capable of killing lvl 20 wizard non-arena style. (ergo, wiz can have cast on him anything he likes before fight starts).

Since these spellcasting abominations laugh at tarrasques & lvl 20 CR co., I would welcome any suggestion in form of a monster, able te neatly deal with such a wiz.

tnx

Proably been said already, but...
A 20th-level DRUID!

Or two level 20 spellcasters?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-28, 08:16 AM
Still, wouldn't Slay Living have a 5% chance of killing him?
Muhahahahaha.... No. Slay Living allows SR. And if the wizard gets within reach to cast it. :smallamused:

PId6
2009-07-28, 08:19 AM
must be able to track (In any way) the Wizard anywhere he goes, and must be able to go anywhere and hunt relentlessly.
This is pretty much impossible, since Mind Blank protects him against any and all attempts to track him barring epic spells. The only way is to trap the wizard somehow and prevent him from leaving in the first place; good luck.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 08:29 AM
This is pretty much impossible, since Mind Blank protects him against any and all attempts to track him barring epic spells. The only way is to trap the wizard somehow and prevent him from leaving in the first place; good luck.

Well then, that's that idea out. It seems that Doomsday is capable of the task, although you'd need to go a fair way into epic levels for the PCs to take him on. Also, the Epic Pseudonatural Template seems to work rather well. 5xHD SR? Nasty, unbeatable amounts. And easily powerful enough to take on everything else a Wizard has.
I'm trying to think of ways to get the inevitable death and spellbook stealing methods done, but I can't find any that don't involve other level 20 casters; for example, mindraping an ally of the Wizard's to give him a secretly cursed magic item as a gift, without knowing that it was cursed. With the curse itself either being able to kill him, or creating an Antimagic field (Or something) so the Wizard can be killed when he tries to use it in combat. This, however, does not make for a BBEG imo.

PId6
2009-07-28, 08:57 AM
Well then, that's that idea out. It seems that Doomsday is capable of the task, although you'd need to go a fair way into epic levels for the PCs to take him on. Also, the Epic Pseudonatural Template seems to work rather well. 5xHD SR? Nasty, unbeatable amounts. And easily powerful enough to take on everything else a Wizard has.
I'm trying to think of ways to get the inevitable death and spellbook stealing methods done, but I can't find any that don't involve other level 20 casters; for example, mindraping an ally of the Wizard's to give him a secretly cursed magic item as a gift, without knowing that it was cursed. With the curse itself either being able to kill him, or creating an Antimagic field (Or something) so the Wizard can be killed when he tries to use it in combat. This, however, does not make for a BBEG imo.
Can it do anything though if the wizard just teleports away?

Stealing his spellbook is not worth your time. Every competent wizard should have (at least) two spellbooks, one "master" spellbook containing every spell he's ever found to be kept only in his sanctum, and a more portable one with only the most useful spells to be kept on his person. You'd have to steal both to make any sort of difference (good luck finding/getting into his sanctum) and even then, a spellbook isn't required to cast spells, only to prepare them. As long as he has a single Teleport spell still memorized (and he should), he can get away to some random city and start rebuilding his book. That's not even mentioning the fact that if you can get close enough past his defenses to steal the book from his person, you're better off just stabbing him instead.

As for mindraping an ally of his, a true paranoid wizard would only have absolutely loyal simulacrums as his allies, and the spells says "At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command," so I don't think mindraping one would work that well. In an actual campaign setting, his allies would be the other PCs, and you might get OOC trouble if you start mindraping them just to get at a single player. As for magic items, if he's not sure what they do, why wouldn't he try them out on his completely disposable Simulacrums first?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-28, 09:03 AM
There's a reason I didn't use the epic pseudonatural template for Doomsday. Sure, you get some ability bonuses, some attack bonuses and near magic immunity but +10 CR? You effectively lose 20+ HD of normal advancement so except for the spell resistance the creature is definitely weaker.

As for facing Doomsday well into epic levels, why? He's CR 25. He's supposed to be unbetable for lvl 19 and lower, an Overpowering encounter for level 20 (thus suitable for a BBEG they are not supposed to kill but still can with a great deal of luck, allies and preparation) and a very difficult encounter for lvl 21-22, thus appropriate BBEG.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 09:23 AM
As for mindraping an ally of his, a true paranoid wizard would only have absolutely loyal simulacrums as his allies, and the spells says "At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command," so I don't think mindraping one would work that well. In an actual campaign setting, his allies would be the other PCs, and you might get OOC trouble if you start mindraping them just to get at a single player. As for magic items, if he's not sure what they do, why wouldn't he try them out on his completely disposable Simulacrums first?

Ok, so the Spellbook method wouldn't work. But this thread isn't a thought experiment; it is an actual situation, and he wants something that could beat level 20 wizard NPCs. And he would know what the Magic Item was "supposed" to do, but like many cursed items he wouldn't find out until he tried using it for real, not just as a test. Plus there are probably a bunch of homebrew curses that could be used, including some trigger activation ones. Have it work as a perfectly normal item that the Wizard would use, but have it secretly project an Antimagic Field whenever you give the command, causing the Wizard to become helpless until he throws it away. Which would be kind of hard since he might not know what is causing the field, and if it is a belt of armband or something then it will take time to remove it; and time to spare is something you don't have when you have a D4 HD and no magic.

And Doomsday, while technically CR 25, looks like he would be a lot worse. To be honest, this idea seems flawed if it doesn't go epic; if the creature can beat all the level 20 wizards around, then the party probably can't beat it without epic. The only way this is circumvented is if the creature is especially effective against casters, in which case it's basically telling the party casters "screw you".
Annoying thing, I can think of plenty of creatures that would work as a fair BBEG and still do the job, but they all get foiled by Foresight :smallannoyed:

PId6
2009-07-28, 09:57 AM
Ok, so the Spellbook method wouldn't work. But this thread isn't a thought experiment; it is an actual situation, and he wants something that could beat level 20 wizard NPCs. And he would know what the Magic Item was "supposed" to do, but like many cursed items he wouldn't find out until he tried using it for real, not just as a test. Plus there are probably a bunch of homebrew curses that could be used, including some trigger activation ones. Have it work as a perfectly normal item that the Wizard would use, but have it secretly project an Antimagic Field whenever you give the command, causing the Wizard to become helpless until he throws it away. Which would be kind of hard since he might not know what is causing the field, and if it is a belt of armband or something then it will take time to remove it; and time to spare is something you don't have when you have a D4 HD and no magic.
So you can't discover it by testing? And I presume you can't find out its curse by casting divinations like Contact Other Plane or Vision? A homebrewed cursed item that offers absolutely no chance to discover it no matter what precautions you take and automatically render you helpless and probably dead if you put it on with nothing you can possibly do about it? That really screams DM fiat, you know.


The only way this is circumvented is if the creature is especially effective against casters, in which case it's basically telling the party casters "screw you".
The problem with building an anti-caster creature is that at this point, the wizard is basically singing "Anything you can do, I can do better" to everyone else. Magic Immune? Orbs, illusions, battlefield control. Also immune to all elements and force damage, have permanent True Seeing and permanent Freedom of Movement? Shapechange into some melee monstrosity and pound it to the ground. Only real way to nullify wizards completely is for some kind of ridiculous aura of auto-fail all spells cast within 300 ft that's not detectable until it's too late, but then you may as well shoot "blue bolts from the heavens" at him, and that still won't stop druids and clerics.

Kilremgor
2009-07-28, 10:13 AM
If there is a desperate situation to get a challenge for 20lvl Wizard, here's one possible solution. It works for every BBEG who doesn't like wizards.

Have your BBEG build a fortress where Doomsday Doomy Artifact of Doom is Dooming the World to Doom (i.e., party has to come there to stop some world-shattering evil masterplan) 500 miles away from the Spire in Outlands (more distance if you are generous, less if more evil).

Astral plane blocked -> goodbye astral projection. Spells of 5th and higher levels do not work. Now your mighty 20-lvl wizard is limited a lot, and has to rely on lower-level spells and other party members (or Shapechange into Rilmani, still severely limiting your options). And for all the 'I have an item that lets me cast in limited magic!' excuses, Spire can even block powers of greater deities!

And if your wizard has such an item, so does the BBEG, and when threatened with items / Rilmani shapechange idea uses it to teleport directly underneath the Spire. No magic. At all. For no one. :smallbiggrin:

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 10:21 AM
So you can't discover it by testing? And I presume you can't find out its curse by casting divinations like Contact Other Plane or Vision? A homebrewed cursed item that offers absolutely no chance to discover it no matter what precautions you take and automatically render you helpless and probably dead if you put it on with nothing you can possibly do about it? That really screams DM fiat, you know.
I never said about Contact Other Plane or taking precautions, and I admit I didn't think about contact other plane. But there already are cursed items that won't work through testing, and a command trigger item's nature wouldn't work unless the command was given. If COP wasn't used, it's a perfectly viable and possible method that doesn't rely on DM fiat.


The problem with building an anti-caster creature is that at this point, the wizard is basically singing "Anything you can do, I can do better" to everyone else. Magic Immune? Orbs, illusions, battlefield control. Also immune to all elements and force damage, have permanent True Seeing and permanent Freedom of Movement? Shapechange into some melee monstrosity and pound it to the ground. Only real way to nullify wizards completely is for some kind of ridiculous aura of auto-fail all spells cast within 300 ft that's not detectable until it's too late, but then you may as well shoot "blue bolts from the heavens" at him, and that still won't stop druids and clerics.
Again, if not for Foresight, then there could be ways to get it done. But there is foresight, and no way to stop it. I have been trying to think of methods of harm that the Wizard cannot avoid once set up, so Foresight won't warn them until it's too late for them to help it, but I haven't been able to find a way that won't be obvious enough for the Wizard to fix before he is in danger or that won't result in your own death.
However, there is always the saying "fight fire with fire". Or, in this case, the answer is "fight fire with massive explosions". Just trying to find a non-pc creature that can out-magic a straight PC caster.

Edit: Ok, I am highly unsure about this, and alone it wouldn't work, but it's a start. Would a delayed spell ray with a death attack constitute an immediate threat, or would the Wizard's foresight only warn him after the ray had already hit? Technically, the effect would only come into play a few rounds later, so the Wizard wouldn't be able to have super foresight unsurprisable powers.

eepop
2009-07-28, 10:42 AM
Obtain the following items:
1) Yourself the DM
2) The player of the wizard
3) Two places to sit (preferably comfortable)
4) Some sort of delicious food (preferably something #2 likes)

Then explain that his character is simply too powerful and that you are not going to be able to continue to allow him to play it indefinitely. Give him a choice
1) Start playing his character differently. You'll have to word this in a way that addresses why you aren't able to accept the wizard as is. If he's outshining the other players, he needs to take some of the focus off of himself and help out by buffing the other characters instead. If you just can't have any fun encounters because he always "wins" in the first round with a save or die/suck spell, tell him he needs to stop casting those.
2) Retire the character on his terms, in whatever method he desires, and that you are willing to devote a few sessions of the game to setting it up with him. He can then make another character of appropriate level that doesn't suffer from the same issues. This can be done in any number of ways: His character's death by his choice of enemy, his character just retiring, his character developing a new spell that when cast goes horribly wrong transforming him into something else (his new character), etc.
3) Tell him that given no other alternative, you are going to kill his character outright and in a possibly humiliating way. Say, let him get laid by the sexy tavern wench and get a lethal STD that can not be cured.


If all that fails, just induce paranoia. He'll think he can prepare for anything, but make him think he needs to prepare for everything...from the lowliest bacteria to a Tarrasque with 12 templates. Just keep piling on fears until he does nothing but spend all his time preparing.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 10:45 AM
eepop, the problem is how to kill one, and an NPC one at that. Preferably with a non-PC race.

And on topic, at this rate the only kind of person who could seem to do it would be someone who could make the Wizard kill them self, or die of nonstandard means. Maybe some kind of nightmare, phantasm, horror inducing thing. Like a Dream Larva, perhaps. And that whole "fatal STD" thing might actually work, given changes. Guardian Virus anyone? (SoD reference)

Edit: Also, on that subject, the Nightmare spell works as a save or suck (Can't gain arcane spells for 24 hours) with unlimited range that can be made too high to pass without much difficulty.

Edit 2: And Glibness works. Use Mundane means to bring down the Wizard indirectly, or to trick him into letting down his guard.

PId6
2009-07-28, 11:04 AM
Edit: Ok, I am highly unsure about this, and alone it wouldn't work, but it's a start. Would a delayed spell ray with a death attack constitute an immediate threat, or would the Wizard's foresight only warn him after the ray had already hit? Technically, the effect would only come into play a few rounds later, so the Wizard wouldn't be able to have super foresight unsurprisable powers.
I'd think it would warn him a few seconds before the ray actually hit, which means he'd have enough time to defend himself/get out of range. It really doesn't matter if it's delayed or cast at that time, since he can still get away from it once warned.

Also, none of the mind-affecting effects would work.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 11:22 AM
Really? My impression from the description and the fact that you roll attacks when you make the delayed spell led me to believe that you fired the ray at the target, and then a few rounds later it would take effect. Ah well, learn something new.
Foresight is so hard to simply overcome, since you have to use something that isn't harmful or dangerous against them, otherwise it's useless. And i'm beginning to think that the only option would be to use something outright too powerful for the Wizard to handle (Barring cheesy tricks on the Wizard's part).

PId6
2009-07-28, 11:26 AM
Really? My impression from the description and the fact that you roll attacks when you make the delayed spell led me to believe that you fired the ray at the target, and then a few rounds later it would take effect. Ah well, learn something new.
Hmm, you're right. With attack-roll spells, I think you do fire the spell first and have it take effect later. Still, Foresight should show him the ray coming at him; he may not know exactly what it does, but he should be able to tell it's bad.

Delaney Gale
2009-07-28, 11:57 AM
Have your BBEG build a fortress where Doomsday Doomy Artifact of Doom is Dooming the World to Doom (i.e., party has to come there to stop some world-shattering evil masterplan) 500 miles away from the Spire in Outlands (more distance if you are generous, less if more evil).


*gives a cookie* I think you just summed it up- lure the wizard into facing you on your own terms. If you're going to attack a wizard in its own fortress, you're going to go squish.

Quote from the Mage my Vampire character met when he was researching time and mind-control magic, regarding how you could destroy a Mage:

"We really have only one weakness... we bleed."

Get a wizard without their magic, and they're pretty much hopeless. This is why I favor playing multiclass wizard/physically capable class- sure, I can't cast Time Stop with an ECL 22 character, but I can do 478 damage in 6 seconds.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 12:00 PM
Hmm, you're right. With attack-roll spells, I think you do fire the spell first and have it take effect later. Still, Foresight should show him the ray coming at him; he may not know exactly what it does, but he should be able to tell it's bad.
Well, the reason I thought it would work is because foresight only tells you when you are about to experience harm or danger, and you won't be "harmed" until the ray takes effect. So he will be able to at least see how he handles the Death Attack. I could be wrong, would be nice to get some more opinion on this.

Also, as an expansion of what I said before, one could use Mundane means to approach the Wizard to a certain range, and then get out an Antimagic Field. The Field is neither direct Danger nor Harm in any sense of the words, and then his Foresight is useless, along with all the Contingencies he worked so carefully and hardly to perfect. Then take him down fast, and if you want to go that extra mile, trap his soul afterwards too. I feel a trickster BBEG would be pretty cool, albeit not the -zilla type wanted.

PId6
2009-07-28, 12:25 PM
Well, the reason I thought it would work is because foresight only tells you when you are about to experience harm or danger, and you won't be "harmed" until the ray takes effect. So he will be able to at least see how he handles the Death Attack. I could be wrong, would be nice to get some more opinion on this.

Also, as an expansion of what I said before, one could use Mundane means to approach the Wizard to a certain range, and then get out an Antimagic Field. The Field is neither direct Danger nor Harm in any sense of the words, and then his Foresight is useless, along with all the Contingencies he worked so carefully and hardly to perfect. Then take him down fast, and if you want to go that extra mile, trap his soul afterwards too. I feel a trickster BBEG would be pretty cool, albeit not the -zilla type wanted.
That really depends on how you think Foresight works and how you determine "Harm". If you only mean direct damage, then the spell is virtually worthless. Sure, an Antimagic Field isn't "direct danger", but an effect that takes away all of your equipment wouldn't be "direct danger" either, and would be far more harmful than a direct damage spell.

Fluff-wise, I see Foresight as using your future self to interpret events. So, for example, if your future self would react with alarm when entering an Antimagic Field, then the Foresight would reveal that as a danger. Same with a ray. Even if you don't know what it does, if your future self would feel troubled by getting hit with an unknown ray from a known enemy, then Foresight would probably reveal that as a danger.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 12:34 PM
Well then, I guess it falls back to the "can't surprise them no matter what" rule, thanks to Celerity and Foresight. Unless, of course, the Wizard wouldn't even notice the ray had been fired, in which case the Wizard wouldn't be able to tell what would happen on the idea that he wouldn't know what had happened in the future. But that is a stretch.
Also, if we go to epic, could the Spell Stowaway feats be used to follow any teleport spells the Wizard uses to where the Wizard ends up?

Edit: Just thought of another idea. Couldn't the ray be a quickened spell, and before using the ray, keep readying actions to counterspell/disrupt any spells the Wizard uses? What are the potential weaknesses in that?

PId6
2009-07-28, 12:49 PM
Well then, I guess it falls back to the "can't surprise them no matter what" rule, thanks to Celerity and Foresight. Unless, of course, the Wizard wouldn't even notice the ray had been fired, in which case the Wizard wouldn't be able to tell what would happen on the idea that he wouldn't know what had happened in the future. But that is a stretch.
Also, if we go to epic, could the Spell Stowaway feats be used to follow any teleport spells the Wizard uses to where the Wizard ends up?

Edit: Just thought of another idea. Couldn't the ray be a quickened spell, and before using the ray, keep readying actions to counterspell/disrupt any spells the Wizard uses? What are the potential weaknesses in that?
No idea about Spell Stowaway (though epic makes it a bit meh) but there's a Psionic power called Divert Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/divertTeleport.htm) which does exactly what it sounds like.

The problem with that is, we're back to needing a caster to beat a caster. You don't really need counterspelling if you're going that route; just cast Antimagic Field with your standard action, then, when he uses Celerity or some such, use your own immediate action like your own Celerity. Or, since he's probably going to teleport, wait until he casts that before using your immediate action to manifest Divert Teleport, sending him plunging into your Pit of Doom (if he fails the Will save). But either way, you're still needing a caster to beat a caster.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 01:09 PM
But either way, you're still needing a caster to beat a caster.
Needing a caster to beat a 9th level spell caster. Nobody else has Foresight, so they're just as vulnerable to sudden attacks.

olentu
2009-07-28, 02:18 PM
Needing a caster to beat a 9th level spell caster. Nobody else has Foresight, so they're just as vulnerable to sudden attacks.

One can get foresight on several other spellcasting classes.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 02:23 PM
As anything other than a 9th level spell? If that is the case, I'm interested.

Eldariel
2009-07-28, 02:29 PM
As anything other than a 9th level spell? If that is the case, I'm interested.

Dark Foresight, for one. Warlock Invocation that does mostly the same thing.

quick_comment
2009-07-28, 02:30 PM
As anything other than a 9th level spell? If that is the case, I'm interested.

I think there is some domain that has it as 8th.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 02:38 PM
So then, it can be available at 15th level to Clerics and 16th to Warlocks, while Wizards get it at 17th...I did not know that. So then, any character without access to Foresight can be dealt with a hell of a lot easier than one who does.

olentu
2009-07-28, 02:39 PM
Yeah dark foresight and the time domain are the ones that I was thinking of though there may be others that I do not remember.

Edit: Being a domain a divine caster could get it with a one level dip in contemplative if they wanted it that much.

PId6
2009-07-28, 02:45 PM
Anyone with enough UMD can do it. Not that hard if you optimize a bit and find a way to take 10 on UMD checks.

Doc Roc
2009-07-28, 03:05 PM
True story. Very expensive though, cause it has to be in a staff. Too high for wands.

I mean, my normal go-to for wizard killing is an ur-priest\RkV gish.

Doc Roc
2009-07-28, 03:07 PM
Get a wizard without their magic, and they're pretty much hopeless. This is why I favor playing multiclass wizard/physically capable class- sure, I can't cast Time Stop with an ECL 22 character, but I can do 478 damage in 6 seconds.

I can do both. With timestop for an eighth level slot.

Then again, I'm widely considered a WMD in gaming.

Kallisti
2009-07-28, 07:08 PM
The answer, my friends, is Extraordinary Spell Aim. Get a caster with Extraordinary spell aim to make your item of AMF for you. Do you know what Extraordinary Spell Aim does? It makes a 5-foot hole in an area spell (like, oh, I don't know, AMF). Then you can use magic weapons and wings of flying, etc. All you need to do is teleport in and kill him, using boots of teleport (which, being in your square, are exempt from the AMF). Wizard's foresight goes, "Danger, Will Robinson! Danger,dang--" And all the magic goes out. Then your swordsage with the Spell Aim AMF appears and uses Avalanche of Blades with Inferno Blade to tear his soft d4 HD flesh into tiny pieces. His Foresight gives him one round to buff. And it warns him he's about to be scry-and-die'd by a swordsage. He goes, TIME STOP! Greater Stoneskin! Quickened Fire Shield! Etherealness! Quickened Greater Mage Armor! Heart of Water! Quickened Flicker! Etc., etc. He's ready to kick some Swordsage butt with his boatload of buffs--until the magic turns off. And no Celerity for him, because there's no magic. No teleport. No plane shift. No contingency or contingent spells. Nothing.

And if he's using Astral Projection, just do the same thing, ony poof to his body using a plane shift. Sure, he probably has Simulacra, etc. guarding his body, but you've turned the magic off. The Simulacra stop working, the wards stop working, the people he dominated wake up, etc. And even if there are guards that don't disappear, level twenty swordsage says, "Guards? AVALANCHE OF BLADES! Dual Boost: INFERNO BLADE! RAGING MONGOOSE! What guards?"

Now, if he's a truly paranoid wizard who hides in his demiplane casting contingencies and cackling about how he will never be harmed, let him. Take his mini and his character sheet, set them on a shelf, and say, "Congratulations, you're invincible. What do the rest of you do while he hides and cackles?"

But even if the assassination is cheese-free and not DM fiat, it's still the DM purposefully trying to remove a character. Start by trying to talk him out of whatever he's doing that requires you to remove his character. If that doesn't work, THEN let him have it. When he complains, point out that his actions have attracted the attention of a lot of very powerful people who want him dead, and it's finally happened. If he's not mature enough to accept this, stop gaming with him.

Doc Roc
2009-07-28, 08:36 PM
Anticipate teleport says no. You virtually MUST be a full caster to kill a full caster. Killing casters CAN be done, but we found you basically had to move in under the cover of a timestop-style effect.

Frosty
2009-07-28, 08:40 PM
Anticipate teleport says no. You virtually MUST be a full caster to kill a full caster. Killing casters CAN be done, but we found you basically had to move in under the cover of a timestop-style effect.

How long does Anticipate Teleport last and what level spell is it?

Eldariel
2009-07-28, 08:41 PM
How long does Anticipate Teleport last and what level spell is it?

3rd and hours/level. It single-handedly makes Scry'n'Die an unreliable, risky and prone-to-fail tactic.

Doc Roc
2009-07-28, 08:42 PM
Trivially easy to keep up, in other words, without shenanigans. I can get a CL of 34 or so at L20. You guys need to stop insisting that a non-trivial problem is easy and do some reading regarding the various existing lines of attack and mechanisms of defense.

Frosty
2009-07-28, 08:42 PM
3rd and hours/level.

The solution is to turn it into a minute/level spell and then crank it up to level 6 so one would have an extremely hard time persisting it. Or it can remain level 3 if you ban Persist.

Doc Roc
2009-07-28, 08:45 PM
Trivially easy to keep up, in other words, without shenanigans. I can get a CL of 34 or so at L20. You guys need to stop insisting that a non-trivial problem is easy and do some reading regarding the various existing lines of attack and mechanisms of defense. A lot of work, and I mean work, has been done on this problem by people with the respect of the community. They have my and perhaps our respect because they are rational, reasoned, often brilliant. We live in a small pond, with many smart fish.

Interestingly, psionics are often a fairly good option for this role, as a lot of their functionality lies orthogonal to the normal rock-sniper-shotgun balance of D&D's standard ecology. But then, that's well documented. A lot of really smart people have attacked this problem for a LOT of angles.

Trivially easy to persist. What will you ban? If you are banning things, essential tools for one side of the argument, you have admitted a problem at the heart of matters.

Eldariel
2009-07-28, 08:59 PM
The solution is to turn it into a minute/level spell and then crank it up to level 6 so one would have an extremely hard time persisting it. Or it can remain level 3 if you ban Persist.

I don't think disabling the one good way to ward an area against Teleport-by Rappz0r U-attacks is really a good plan anyways. I mean, how the hell will anyone live when Wizards can just Teleport in, go Boom Boom and Teleport out?

If anything, the hour/level nature of Anticipate Teleport is one of the few things keeping Teleportations distantly in line with the game's power level; it doesn't hurt defensive Teleports, but it does make offensive use of Teleportation much more difficult and a precision work even in open areas. Overall, I'd be less worried about counters and more worried about the abilities needing counters in the first place.

Doc Roc
2009-07-28, 09:01 PM
Give the nice Finn a prize! He's hit the nail on the head better than my incompetent arse could.

olentu
2009-07-29, 12:03 AM
Um yeah, Anticipate Teleportation is 24 hours for the third level one round delay in the spell compendium. The 24 hours three rounds delay one is sixth level also in the spell compendium.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-29, 01:53 AM
To actually surprise a wizard you need to:

a) get a surprise round in which the wizard acts
and
b) beat him in initiative in that surprise round.
and
c) use celerity or contingency or readied action to react to his celerity or contingency.

OR

c) make a move that doesn't incur a surprise round in which the wizard can act but still disables the wizard.


The first is pretty easy to perform-but requires a caster or a class with the "always ready" ability that allows you to ready an action outside combat.

The second requires some good thinking.
a) Is there an effect that negates contingency? Sure there is; any effect that makes you undetectable by spells negates contingency-because if a contingency can't detect the trigger, it never goes off. Such effects include the sequester spell, the timestop spell and derivatives. Special mention is warranted to the Ring of Sequester; as long as you wear that, no magic can detect you. This has the side effect of a wizard's contingencies never activating against you.
b) Is there a series of events that negates contingencies? Of course there is; a first contingency that goes off on being close to the wizard and a second contingency that goes off on any contingency or immediate action on the wizard's part. The wizard tries to react-or his contingencies react automatically-to the first effect and then your second effect activates and traps him.

Frosty
2009-07-29, 02:02 AM
Or, keep watch on the wizard (there are ways around Mind Blank) and wait until he wastes his Contingency and high level spell slots fighting OTHER high level threats. Then teleport in.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 02:14 AM
Name three ways around mindblank and three ways around anticipate teleport and three ways around planar touchstone:breaching obelisk's EX timestop effect? And ways to get a surprise round on a wizard who may well have taken 10 levels of divine oracle.

I'll wait.

Frosty
2009-07-29, 02:15 AM
Name three ways around mindblank and three ways around anticipate teleport and three ways around planar touchstone:breaching obelisk's timestop effect?

I'll wait.

Why 3? Just one will do. I know there's a psionic way to overcome Mind Blank, but I don't know the exact power myself. Also, when you ask a deity questions about a subject, I doubt Mind Blank will stop a deity.

olentu
2009-07-29, 02:19 AM
Why 3? Just one will do. I know there's a psionic way to overcome Mind Blank, but I don't know the exact power myself. Also, when you ask a deity questions about a subject, I doubt Mind Blank will stop a deity.

Are you thinking of Metafaculty.

Frosty
2009-07-29, 02:22 AM
Are you thinking of Metafaculty.
Yes. I remember that being mentioned in another thread.

Melamoto
2009-07-29, 03:23 AM
Metafaculty does do the trick, although it is a level 9 seer power. Still, it looks like the job will have to be accomplished by a Psion or Full Caster. I still think that there must be some way to do it with something else though. Just need something that can get around Divinations. One surprise round, even against a buffed caster with Celerity, could be all that is needed...

Aharon
2009-07-29, 03:35 AM
@Melamoto
Getting the AP is not related, it's essential. It's agreed on that most casters 20 will have it up for security reasons 24/7.

Details on what I last posted:
The Spell is called Otiluke's Supressing Field.
Using a combination of caster-level rises, you can get your caster level up to max 44, min (when your own caster-level heightening spells and items are supressed) 30.

That's up to a 55 DC he has to beat - unless he uses cheese like Consumptive Field, it's unlikely he can.

Cost:
~2000 GP for the material component of Suffer the Flesh
3300 for a Domain Draught (Purification)
20000 for the soultrapping gem
10000 for the research of his truename. (takes 1/2 HD successes, each success one week of research, DC very high (15+2*20+possible modifiers, but nothing that a combination of skill check raising like Divine Competence, Moment of Prescience can't solve.)

Limited Wish to lower his save by 7.

He now has to deal with a Trap the soul
Save DC 10+8+2(make the caster an illumnian for the sigil thingie)+7 (Int 25, as Headband of Intellect is in all likelihood suppressed)+2 (for using the truename as part of the spell)+ 2(Spell Focus and greater Spell Focus)=29
vs.
Will 12+5(cloak, abjuration isn't banned)+2 (Wis 14)-7 (limited wish)=12
That's a 80% chance of succeeding. I'm sure if you put more work in heightening the DC of Trap the soul, you can get a 95% chance of succeeding.

Wizard 20 defeated by a lowly team of Bard 7, Cleric 7, Wu Jen 15, Abjurer 17...

olentu
2009-07-29, 03:47 AM
@Melamoto
Getting the AP is not related, it's essential. It's agreed on that most casters 20 will have it up for security reasons 24/7.

Details on what I last posted:
The Spell is called Otiluke's Supressing Field.
Using a combination of caster-level rises, you can get your caster level up to max 44, min (when your own caster-level heightening spells and items are supressed) 30.

That's up to a 55 DC he has to beat - unless he uses cheese like Consumptive Field, it's unlikely he can.

Cost:
~2000 GP for the material component of Suffer the Flesh
3300 for a Domain Draught (Purification)
20000 for the soultrapping gem
10000 for the research of his truename. (takes 1/2 HD successes, each success one week of research, DC very high (15+2*20+possible modifiers, but nothing that a combination of skill check raising like Divine Competence, Moment of Prescience can't solve.)

Limited Wish to lower his save by 7.

He now has to deal with a Trap the soul
Save DC 10+8+2(make the caster an illumnian for the sigil thingie)+7 (Int 25, as Headband of Intellect is in all likelihood suppressed)+2 (for using the truename as part of the spell)+ 2(Spell Focus and greater Spell Focus)=29
vs.
Will 12+5(cloak, abjuration isn't banned)+2 (Wis 14)-7 (limited wish)=12
That's a 80% chance of succeeding. I'm sure if you put more work in heightening the DC of Trap the soul, you can get a 95% chance of succeeding.

Wizard 20 defeated by a lowly team of Bard 7, Cleric 7, Wu Jen 15, Abjurer 17...

Which school or subtype of spell are you suppressing.

Aharon
2009-07-29, 04:00 AM
Well, if you are paranoid, all except Conjuration(summoning), Conjuration(calling), Necromancy and Abjuration. Those are the only ones that are required for Greater Spirit Binding (Conjuration(Calling), Astral Projection (if it's suppressed, he just returns home), Trap the Soul (Conjuration(Summoning), Circle of Protection and Dimensional Anchor.

Fewer should suffice, though. Divination, Transmutation and Evocation are essential to block Moment of Prescience, Foresight, Celerity, Shapechange and Contingency.

Each casting lasts 10 minutes/level, so that's not a problem.

I worked out the details (which school gets which DC) in open office and forgot to convert it. Unfortunately, my internet-connected PC doesn't have OpenOffice. I will provide the details this evening.

Addition: To make the Magic Circle work, you only need to know his alignment on one of the axis. Contact other Plane with the question "Is the person with the truename ... chaotic on the alignment axis?" should do that. The gods know :smallwink:

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 04:11 AM
Provide he comes to you, and doesn't just teleport a stack of trap-the-soul triggers into your bedrolls. Trap the soul is one of those spells that's generally covered by a gentleman's agreement. I'm entirely done with this thread. Aharon is on the right track, but I suggest you all do some reading.

olentu
2009-07-29, 04:23 AM
Well assuming said wizard does not have a proper contingent spell to counter your plan, the multiple castings of the same spell work, said wizard has not become immune to spells that allow SR, and the wizard does not get an action then your plan seems like it would work just fine.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 04:24 AM
As victories vs. the paranoid wizard go, this is a pretty good one.

:|

olentu
2009-07-29, 04:27 AM
Well of course it is. In many cases it requires the wizard to specifically prepare for this to avoid it.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 04:30 AM
That is what divination is for, particularly itemized divination. The only way to take down the paranoid caster is to bombard him with hell. We're talking serious mojo on a continuous basis from multiple sources. I didn't like the killing deities thread cause I like it. I linked it because it was relevant.

olentu
2009-07-29, 04:36 AM
That is what divination is for, particularly itemized divination. The only way to take down the paranoid caster is to bombard him with hell. We're talking serious mojo on a continuous basis from multiple sources. I didn't like the killing deities thread cause I like it. I linked it because it was relevant.

Well that is of course the obvious course of action.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 04:38 AM
Working on being nicer. Scrubbed.

olentu
2009-07-29, 04:48 AM
Working on being nicer. Scrubbed.

Well it appears that I have caused offense and so I apologize as what I have written was merely to denote agreement and not intended to offend.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 04:51 AM
No, I was actually going to agree with you too vociferously :)

Not even kidding. It's been a rough night, I had to build a character for a guy who wouldn't play casters or melee or use a bow, with ToB banned and ECL 6. Finally got him to play a DFI bard. I'm afraid I've just run the gamut of builds, and I'm in a position where I really do think that basically given what I know, which is.... a lot, I don't think I could kill a paranoid wizard with a team of less than three casters.

And this thread has brought out the worst in me, leaving me arguing much more viciously than I normally would. My apologies. As you know, Olentu, I really value your input and assistance. I didn't mean to leave you feeling put-off.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-29, 04:59 AM
Pre-cast all I want?

Cleric 20 with a custom use-activated item of Time Regression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm).

Hire the services of a 20th level bard. Ask him to use Bardic Knowledge on this 20th level wizard to find out how old he is. I assume the bard succeeds and you now know his age in years.

Use aforementioned use-activated item of Time Regression 5,259,487 times in a row. You've gone back in time 1 year. Repeat this one time for every year the wizard has lived. Proceed to cast Divination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divination.htm) when you've gone back to the year before he was born. Spend the next year casting Divination every week and always ask "When is the [boy/girl] who is to become [Wizard] going to be born?"

Eventually you'll get a hit. Cast it again and find out where. Go there. Smash his little baby skull.

You win.

olentu
2009-07-29, 05:01 AM
No, I was actually going to agree with you too vociferously :)

Not even kidding. It's been a rough night, I had to build a character for a guy who wouldn't play casters or melee or use a bow, with ToB banned and ECL 6. Finally got him to play a DFI bard. I'm afraid I've just run the gamut of builds, and I'm in a position where I really do think that basically given what I know, which is.... a lot, I don't think I could kill a paranoid wizard with a team of less than three casters.

And this thread has brought out the worst in me, leaving me arguing much more viciously than I normally would. My apologies. As you know, Olentu, I really value your input and assistance. I didn't mean to leave you feeling put-off.

Ah well then there is no problem since this misunderstanding is cleared up.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 05:03 AM
Unfortunately, this has the side-effect of destroying your entire timeline completely. Temporal regression is not reversible, and you end up starting from your little skull-smashing endeavor. Maybe, though, you consider that a good thing. I would understand that perspective.

There are some precautions a wizard can take against this. It's possible, but admittedly difficult, to temporally displace the start of your timeline in D&D or render yourself immune to time manipulation. I don't want to go into either of them, as they dive off the TO deep-end. Suffice to say, they work.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-29, 06:39 AM
Something that came up in another thread;

Mind Blank prevents ANY divination from revealing info about yourself, right?
Foresight reveals imminent danger about your future, right?

Then, if you stick to RAW, it is impossible for both spells to work on the same target. :smalltongue:

Melamoto
2009-07-29, 07:35 AM
Ok, I think I have a pretty solid idea on how to make a lot of these methods work:

They're NPC Wizards, which just have to be able to be beaten by this build. I don't think it would be too hard for them to not be completely paranoid, abuse AP and Foresight, have an almost endless number of contingencies (Just a few escape methods), and for Celerity to be banned?
It may not work as an actual Wizard killing method, but it sure as hell works for the OP's purposes.

Assuming nobody has a problem with this, then we can now change the thread to "Punch out the Wizard! MkII". See here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111843)

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-31, 04:28 AM
Unfortunately, this has the side-effect of destroying your entire timeline completely.

That doesn't make any sense.


It's possible, but admittedly difficult, to temporally displace the start of your timeline in D&D or render yourself immune to time manipulation.

I'd like to know the second, so I have an excuse for whenever someone plays a Nomad item-maker in my games. The first, again, doesn't make sense.

Doc Roc
2009-07-31, 05:59 AM
Sorry, what I meant is that regression is a roll-back of events. There's no way forward from where you roll back to that doesn't eliminate the rollback....English is not very good for this.

The issue is that there are... a number of RAW readings of time flow in D&D. You'd need to read up on the terminators and neo-terminators, basically. I really don't want to talk about them, but if you'd like I'll chat real-time about them sometime monday.