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View Full Version : Will "Wheel of Time" Ever be Finished?



MissK
2009-07-25, 02:59 PM
So, I know that Robert Jordan died a few years back, but I remember hearing at the time that someone was going to finish the series posthumously based on his notes. What ever happened to that? Are we EVER going to know how it ends?

Recaiden
2009-07-25, 03:02 PM
Yes. Memory of Light will be released in 3 parts, because it's just that long. I think the 1st part comes out this November.

Deliverance
2009-07-25, 03:09 PM
The author is Brandon Sanderson - read his Elantris or Mistborn novels to pass the time until the first part of AMOL is released.

Volug
2009-07-25, 03:41 PM
I'm on fires of heaven, I can wait.

Though my favorite character isn't in that book much I think >.> (Perrin)
So I'm taking my time with it, nothing telling me to finish it in a day like the others.

Also, I figured out that the new author lives only a few miles from me =O

The_JJ
2009-07-25, 03:57 PM
Oh, they're all in there. Somewhere. Books 8-10 were kinda a pain though.

Helanna
2009-07-25, 05:45 PM
Also, I figured out that the new author lives only a few miles from me =O

That's pretty awesome. Brandon Sanderson is one of my favorite writers of all time. When they announced him to finish the series, I was skeptical, but after I read Elantris and Mistborn, all my fears had dissolved. He's going to do an awesome job. :smallbiggrin:

I was actually just reading a rant about Wheel of Time (and how much it sucks, blah blah blah). I realize it has flaws, but some of the complaints astound me. One of the more common ones is the "lack of subtlety", like naming Shai'tan to sound like Satan. Apparently all those people COMPLETELY missed the entire point of the series, that time is a WHEEL. Frankly, it's astonishing.

horngeek
2009-07-25, 08:17 PM
Oh, yes. This should be awesome.

My personal Fanon is that the 1st age is our present time.

cnsvnc
2009-07-26, 04:09 AM
Much as I don't really like Wheel of Time, it'll be finished. And after reading Elantris, I know Sanderson is awesome and will do a good job.

Aidan305
2009-07-26, 06:44 AM
Oh, yes. This should be awesome.

My personal Fanon is that the 1st age is our present time.

There are hints throughout the books that it is.

rewinn
2009-07-27, 03:58 PM
So, I know that Robert Jordan died a few years back, but I remember hearing at the time that someone was going to finish the series posthumously based on his notes. What ever happened to that? Are we EVER going to know how it ends?
While (as others have posted) the series will surely come to a conclusion, the Wheel of Time itself might not ever come to an end, by its very nature.

It might be fun if the series had a Worm Ourobouros-type ending but I suppose that, too, is implicit in its nature.

douglas
2009-07-27, 04:23 PM
As has been mentioned several times already, Brandon Sanderson is working on it. His website is brandonsanderson.com (http://brandonsanderson.com/). The Gathering Storm is already finished and due out November 3rd this year. The next part, working title Shifting Winds (he's promised this will be changed before release) is planned for a year after that, November 2010. The final book, most likely titled A Memory of Light, is planned for November 2011.

I had never even heard of Brandon Sanderson before he got picked for the Wheel of Time, but he has since earned the title of My Favorite Author. Elantris is good but not especially great - until you consider it's his debut novel. The Mistborn trilogy is great, Warbreaker made me go short on sleep to finish it, and the Alcatraz series gave me plenty of laughs despite being aimed for a younger audience. I am eagerly anticipating both his Wheel of Time books and the start of his own fantasy epic, Way of Kings.

That last one has an amusing history, btw. Somehow Amazon got wind of it years ago before he'd really committed to it, and it got put off in favor of other projects - but the amazon.com Way of Kings page (http://www.amazon.com/Way-Kings-Brandon-Sanderson/dp/B000WH4TIA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248729974&sr=8-1) remained. Quite a number of fans have found it and posted spurious and humorous reviews, and someone gave amazon a photoshopped cover image for it.

Rockphed
2009-07-27, 05:47 PM
I was actually just reading a rant about Wheel of Time (and how much it sucks, blah blah blah). I realize it has flaws, but some of the complaints astound me. One of the more common ones is the "lack of subtlety", like naming Shai'tan to sound like Satan. Apparently all those people COMPLETELY missed the entire point of the series, that time is a WHEEL. Frankly, it's astonishing.

I love the books, I just wish that stuff had actually happened in books 8-10.

Also, Mat is my favorite character, especially later in the series. At the beginning, he just gets in trouble and is irresponsible. Later on, he collects an army to be irresponsible with. Making him much cooler.

Don't open that spoiler if you haven't read all, or at least most, of the books.

CurlyKitGirl
2009-07-27, 06:03 PM
I love the books, I just wish that stuff had actually happened in books 8-10.

Also, Mat is my favorite character, especially later in the series. At the beginning, he just gets in trouble and is irresponsible. Later on, he collects an army to be irresponsible with. Making him much cooler.

Don't open that spoiler if you haven't read all, or at least most, of the books.

Agreed.
Of the three main protagonists Matt is by far and away the best. It's been quite a while since I've read them, but I'd even dub him very slightly genre savvy. Plus his actions in book three onwards are pretty outstanding. Matt does things. Like get an army, intimidate the Boat Ladies into joining the Annoying Aes Sedai, use said army to terrify the supposedly invincible Seanchan, and he's pretty cool on the battlefield too.
Plus he's sarcastic and everyone enjoys a hero with a mouth.
Perrin's next up; I think it was primarily book four where he started genuinely impressing me, then Rand simply because I just can't stand Rand. No really.
He's one of the worst and least likeable characters in the books. Along with virtually every single woman in them.

I was dubious when I heard they were getting another author to finish off the series, which is one I really do enjoy, despite Bk 8 - 10 (especially 10); but it's a good sign that he'd rather publish the book in thirds rather than cut anything out. I just hope it's not going to have too much . . . dull material.

Cheesegear
2009-07-27, 06:18 PM
I liked Rand in the beginning, but, then he bollocks'd it up by turning into an angsty whine-bag. But, I can see his purpose. The three Two Rivers boys approach heroism in an entirely different way and in different manners. And their skills are pretty much evenly matched to their personality.

I think Rand is a great character. It's just that in the same book/s, we see the likes of Perrin and Mat. Somehow, I think being disliked was the point Jordan was trying to make. Since the characters in the book/s themselves find him frustrating as well.

I can see where Rand is coming from. Being the last, best hope for Humanity is supposed to be hard. Although, that's partly Lan's fault for making him believe that.

I like how Mazrim just keeps pushing Rand to the edge. I look forward to seeing how that plays out. Logain is another of my favourites. He is how Rand should have ended up.

It's also been reported that Jordan had a truckload of notes for the last book, and they were to be passed on to whoever was going to finish it. So, I'm happy that the last book will stay true to what Jordan wanted in the end. But, at the same time, by having a new writer, the series will go in a slightly different direction...And I have lots of faith in Mr. Sanderson.

douglas
2009-07-27, 07:09 PM
It's also been reported that Jordan had a truckload of notes for the last book, and they were to be passed on to whoever was going to finish it. So, I'm happy that the last book will stay true to what Jordan wanted in the end. But, at the same time, by having a new writer, the series will go in a slightly different direction...And I have lots of faith in Mr. Sanderson.
Brandon recently stated as part of a Q&A session that Jordan's notes for the series as a whole have a higher word count than the entire series itself. His notes specifically for A Memory of Light are a bit shorter, of course, but it's still a staggering amount of material.

Draz74
2009-07-27, 08:40 PM
I'm happy to see there are so many other Sanderson fans here. I never actually got into the WoT (I read the first book and found it ok, but never continued), but I'm a big fan of Sanderson's work.

Will you be able to tell it's not written by Jordan? Probably. An author whose style is so similar as to be indistinguishable only happens once in a generation. But it will get finished, and it will be by someone skilled.

bosssmiley
2009-07-28, 04:34 AM
So, I know that Robert Jordan died a few years back, but I remember hearing at the time that someone was going to finish the series posthumously based on his notes. What ever happened to that? Are we EVER going to know how it ends?

I thought the whole point of Wheel of Interminability was that it never ended? :smallconfused:

And did the Dune debacle (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15/) teach us nothing?

Cheesegear
2009-07-28, 05:41 AM
And did the Dune debacle (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15/) teach us nothing?

Except that Mr. Sanderson is a proven good writer. And has a truckload of Jordan's actual notes (i.e; What he wants the story to be). So, there should be no 'Wheel Debacle'. There's no doubt in my mind that the next book/s will be good, but, it may be different.

Different != Bad. And, considering most people don't like 8 through 10 (I, personally found them pretty good), maybe Different = Good?

Bookman
2009-07-28, 09:50 AM
Also, I figured out that the new author lives only a few miles from me =O

Robert Jordan used to live only a few miles from me. :tongue: I knew folks who had met/talked with him personally.


Except that Mr. Sanderson is a proven good writer. And has a truckload of Jordan's actual notes (i.e; What he wants the story to be). So, there should be no 'Wheel Debacle'. There's no doubt in my mind that the next book/s will be good, but, it may be different.


And from my understanding his wife was helping a lot during his later years. So she ALSO will be helping with the final book(s).

I could be wrong...

MissK
2009-07-28, 02:47 PM
Thanks for the info on Sanderson. I'm glad that finally the series will get some closure! I'm sure other WoT fans got frustrated when, as the series advanced, each book got bigger but less actually happened.

Draz74
2009-07-29, 01:58 AM
And from my understanding his wife was helping a lot during his later years. So she ALSO will be helping with the final book(s).

I could be wrong...

Oh no, not wrong at all. Sanderson has to run pretty much everything he does past Harriet.

WalkingTarget
2009-07-29, 08:06 AM
And from my understanding his wife was helping a lot during his later years. So she ALSO will be helping with the final book(s).

I could be wrong...

"Helping a lot"? She was his editor the whole time. :smalltongue:

Sanderson has her input as well as a couple of assistants to help keep details straight in addition to the notes that Jordan left behind (and the sections he'd already written). Sure it'll be different than it would have been if RJ had written it, but I'm glad that it's getting done.

Thialfi
2009-07-29, 09:50 AM
I am looking for a new fantasy series to pass the time until George R. R. Martin delivers his next book which I expect sometime before my 5 year old graduates from high school.

How is Sanderson's work? Is his stuff worth picking up? In relation to the Wheel of Time series can he develop mulitple female characters? I am a little tired of Min and everyone who is not Min being the only two female personalities in the Wheel of Time.

cytokinesis
2009-07-29, 12:18 PM
I am looking for a new fantasy series to pass the time until George R. R. Martin delivers his next book which I expect sometime before my 5 year old graduates from high school.

How is Sanderson's work? Is his stuff worth picking up? In relation to the Wheel of Time series can he develop mulitple female characters? I am a little tired of Min and everyone who is not Min being the only two female personalities in the Wheel of Time.

His stuff is definitely worth picking up. In every one of his books he has female main characters and none of them feel the same, they all have distinct personalities. His books are really good, and I recommend you try them out.

On his site he has a free ebook version of his latest book if you want to try him out.

douglas
2009-07-29, 12:37 PM
How is Sanderson's work?
Excellent.


Is his stuff worth picking up?
Most definitely.


In relation to the Wheel of Time series can he develop mulitple female characters?
Yes.

One of the things he likes to do a lot is take classic fantasy tropes and turn them upside down. So many stories detail the rise of a pauper who becomes a prince. The main protagonist of Elantris is a prince who becomes a pauper. Don't worry, the book is not about a gradual slide into poverty and despair that just depresses the reader; the descent is very rapid, and most of the book deals with what happens afterwards. A major classic is the prophesied hero who is the world's only hope against an overwhelming evil, and the hero inevitably wins in the end. In Mistborn, that happened a thousand years ago. The hero failed. But that's just the initial premise of the setting, things rapidly get a lot more interesting.

Another major hallmark of Sanderson's works is strictly rule based, powerful, but limited and specific magic - and the in world understanding of the magic system (sometimes multiple coexisting systems) by all the characters is incomplete and sometimes flawed. And on top of this, he comes up with a new and wildly different magic system for each setting. Elantris, Mistborn, and Warbreaker all have their own quite distinct magic systems, and his upcoming epic, The Way of Kings, is going to have its own set of systems.

The final major commonality I've noticed is that all his books have a major twist at the end. In every case so far it took me by surprise, but also in every case the instant I got the reveal I could think back and realize that yes, it was set up well in advance.

The only bad thing I can say about Brandon Sanderson's work is that there isn't enough of it yet. He only has 7 published novels, and 2 of those are aimed for a younger audience. Those 2 are still well worth reading, they've got quite a bit of comedy that even adults can appreciate and the story is not excessively dumbed down, but the difference in style is very obvious.

I'd recommend the Mistborn trilogy first. Elantris is good, but it's his debut novel and he's improved a lot since then.

Helanna
2009-07-29, 12:47 PM
How is Sanderson's work? Is his stuff worth picking up? In relation to the Wheel of Time series can he develop mulitple female characters? I am a little tired of Min and everyone who is not Min being the only two female personalities in the Wheel of Time.

Absolutely yes. Sanderson is absolutely fantastic. His female characters are very different than in Wheel of Time (by which I mean they all have real personalities.)

Aaand . . . I see that I had this thread open for too long, because douglas stole all my answers.

But yeah, in my opinion, the best points of his works are the unique, interesting magic systems and the twist endings that are always set up well in advance.

I also would recommend Mistborn, since the ending of the Mistborn trilogy is my favorite and I think it's his best work so far. As was said, it's interesting because it focuses on the after-effects of the hero losing, but it also has a lot more twists in it. It pokes fun at the concept of a prophesied hero and is also unique in that while the plot is resolved in the first book, the second two books rather accurately portray the effects of such an ending.

Draz74
2009-07-29, 12:56 PM
The final major commonality I've noticed is that all his books have a major twist at the end. In every case so far it took me by surprise, but also in every case the instant I got the reveal I could think back and realize that yes, it was set up well in advance.
Argh, when I got to the end of Well of Ascension I was so mad at myself for having missed the clues for the twist. :smallamused: Well, maybe "mad" is an exaggeration. But really, the clue is so stinking obvious once you know what you're looking for ...


The only bad thing I can say about Brandon Sanderson's work is that there isn't enough of it yet.
Cuz he first got published in 2005. Upshot is, unlike many of our favorite fantasy authors, he shouldn't be retiring or passing away anytime soon ... he's in his early 30s, with a healthy family lifestyle ...


He only has 7 published novels, and 2 of those are aimed for a younger audience. Those 2 are still well worth reading, they've got quite a bit of comedy that even adults can appreciate and the story is not excessively dumbed down, but the difference in style is very obvious.
Alcatraz 3 (his 8th novel, 3rd aimed at younger audience) should be coming out anytime now, though. He finished writing it at least 9 months ago.

Hmmm, reminds me, I still need to read Alcatraz 2 and 3.


I'd recommend the Mistborn trilogy first. Elantris is good, but it's his debut novel and he's improved a lot since then.

I'd actually recommend starting with Warbreaker. I like Mistborn better, but it's easier to get into things if you start with a stand-alone novel IMHO.

JaxGaret
2009-07-29, 12:59 PM
There are hints throughout the books that it is.

Could you post details, or link to a place that details them :smallsmile:


I liked Rand in the beginning, but, then he bollocks'd it up by turning into an angsty whine-bag. But, I can see his purpose. The three Two Rivers boys approach heroism in an entirely different way and in different manners. And their skills are pretty much evenly matched to their personality.

I think Rand is a great character. It's just that in the same book/s, we see the likes of Perrin and Mat. Somehow, I think being disliked was the point Jordan was trying to make. Since the characters in the book/s themselves find him frustrating as well.

I can see where Rand is coming from. Being the last, best hope for Humanity is supposed to be hard. Although, that's partly Lan's fault for making him believe that.

Did you miss the part where he is slowly (or not so slowly) going insane due to his powerful connection to saidin and Lews Therin, and knows it's happening?

Helanna
2009-07-29, 01:06 PM
Could you post details, or link to a place that details them

Damn, I know I've read pages about this, but I can't find them right now. But I do know of some examples:

At one point, it talks about the stories of the first age, of the giants Mosk and merk who "fought with spears of fire" - Mosk = Moscow, Merk = America, and the spears of fire are nuclear missiles.

There are also stories about men flying to the moon in the belly of an eagle (the moon landing, of course), and at one point Egwene finds a symbol that looks just like the Mercedes (I think) symbol, giving off feelings of pride and envy.

Also, the names are meant to evoke images: Shai'tan = Satan, Artur Paendrag = King Arthur, Ogier = Ogres, Trollocs = Trolls, etc.

Edit: Aha! Found one! (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Real-world_references)

Krrth
2009-07-29, 01:16 PM
Damn, I know I've read pages about this, but I can't find them right now. But I do know of some examples:

At one point, it talks about the stories of the first age, of the giants Mosk and merk who "fought with spears of fire" - Mosk = Moscow, Merk = America, and the spears of fire are nuclear missiles.

There are also stories about men flying to the moon in the belly of an eagle (the moon landing, of course), and at one point Egwene finds a symbol that looks just like the Mercedes (I think) symbol, giving off feelings of pride and envy.

Also, the names are meant to evoke images: Shai'tan = Satan, Artur Paendrag = King Arthur, Ogier = Ogres, Trollocs = Trolls, etc.

Edit: Aha! Found one! (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Real-world_references)


Actually, I had the great fortune of meeting Mr. Jordan when he was doing a book signing a number of years ago, and I asked him about that.

What he told me was that each of the main characters was designed to represent different aspects of myth...the various archetypes.

Mat is the trickster, and the "basis" for Odin, Coyote, and the like.

Lan=Lancelot, the great but tragic fighter.

Merilin is Merlin, the wise teacher.

Perrin is the Smith, Vulcan,as well as the Wild Hunt.

JaxGaret
2009-07-29, 01:33 PM
Actually, I had the great fortune of meeting Mr. Jordan when he was doing a book signing a number of years ago, and I asked him about that.

What he told me was that each of the main characters was designed to represent different aspects of myth...the various archetypes.

Mat is the trickster, and the "basis" for Odin, Coyote, and the like.

Lan=Lancelot, the great but tragic fighter.

Merilin is Merlin, the wise teacher.

Perrin is the Smith, Vulcan,as well as the Wild Hunt.

What did he say about Rand?


Edit: Aha! Found one! (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Real-world_references)

Thanks DD :smallbiggrin:

Krrth
2009-07-29, 01:50 PM
What did he say about Rand?



Thanks DD :smallbiggrin:

Rand? Arthur, the Fisher King, Thor...also a Messiah figure.

WalkingTarget
2009-07-29, 02:04 PM
Rand? Arthur, the Fisher King, Thor...also a Messiah figure.

I would have thought, name aside, Rand would have been more Tyr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyr) than Thor (the latter represented more by Perrin, along with Perun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun) and others).

That's one of the great things about WoT though, many layers of reference.

Krrth
2009-07-29, 02:15 PM
I would have thought, name aside, Rand would have been more Tyr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyr) than Thor (the latter represented more by Perrin, along with Perun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun) and others).

That's one of the great things about WoT though, many layers of reference.

Heh. He never said they were all one figure. In fact, he specifically said the characters were a mishmash of figures from myth and legend. Places as well. I mean, Tar Valon = Avalon.
Just remember, Mjolnir = Callandor = Excalibur.


As for Perrin, he was the hardest for me to figure out. Of course, the book signing was for the Fires of Heaven, so things might have changed since then.

Telonius
2009-07-29, 02:27 PM
Question related to the OP... when they do release them, will an actual editor be in any way involved? Or will it be another "Crossroads of Twilight?" (More out of idle curiosity than anything, I gave up on the series after shelling out for that hardcopy monstrosity).

Helanna
2009-07-29, 02:43 PM
Question related to the OP... when they do release them, will an actual editor be in any way involved? Or will it be another "Crossroads of Twilight?" (More out of idle curiosity than anything, I gave up on the series after shelling out for that hardcopy monstrosity).

If all goes well, the first volume will be released this November, the next one November 2010, and the third November 2011.

Now I'm not sure whether it'll be as useless as Crossroads of Twilight (I liked the book but it was all setup with no payoff), but I don't think it will be. I trust Sanderson enough to not have split up the final book into three entire volumes unless he absolutely had to, to tie up all of the loose ends. So I'm expecting that quite a lot will happen in these books.



Thanks DD :smallbiggrin:

No problem!

douglas
2009-07-29, 03:19 PM
Question related to the OP... when they do release them, will an actual editor be in any way involved? Or will it be another "Crossroads of Twilight?" (More out of idle curiosity than anything, I gave up on the series after shelling out for that hardcopy monstrosity).
You stopped one book too soon. Knife of Dreams, the very next book, is an ENORMOUS improvement.


Now I'm not sure whether it'll be as useless as Crossroads of Twilight (I liked the book but it was all setup with no payoff), but I don't think it will be. I trust Sanderson enough to not have split up the final book into three entire volumes unless he absolutely had to, to tie up all of the loose ends. So I'm expecting that quite a lot will happen in these books!
Sanderson talked a bit about the basic structure of the final three books at JordanCon. There are, apparently, four separate major plot arcs that occur simultaneously and with little or no interaction, and when they're all done everyone finally gets back together in one large group and the final buildup to Tarmon Gai'don begins. Two of those plot arcs plus a little bit of the setup of the other two are in The Gathering Storm. The other two will be in the next book. The final gathering, collective buildup, and Tarmon Gai'don itself will be in the third and final book.

The little preview blurb on the JordanCon program about The Gathering Storm, also available a few other places, I think, emphasizes Rand and Egwene pretty strongly. I think it's a pretty safe bet that (spoilered for those who haven't read the enough of the series yet)
by the end of this book the siege of Tar Valon will be over, Egwene will be universally acknowledged as Amyrlin, there will be considerably more nations supporting Rand, and Rand vs the Seanchan will be sorted out.
That seems a pretty big list of major happenings to me, so I doubt it will be a disappointment in that regard. You might still be disappointed if the plot arc you were most looking forward to is one of the two designated for the next book, but there should still be plenty to be happy about - and if everything you were looking forward to were packed into TGS, the second book in the set would be awfully boring.

WalkingTarget
2009-07-29, 04:25 PM
Heh. He never said they were all one figure. In fact, he specifically said the characters were a mishmash of figures from myth and legend. Places as well. I mean, Tar Valon = Avalon.
Just remember, Mjolnir = Callandor = Excalibur.


As for Perrin, he was the hardest for me to figure out. Of course, the book signing was for the Fires of Heaven, so things might have changed since then.

I didn't doubt that everybody's a mishmash of various sources, I just don't see the Rand <-> Thor connection (and therefore Mjolnir <-> Callandor).

The Norse gods that I'd associate with Rand, Perrin, and Mat would be Tyr, Thor, and Odin respectively (if nothing else than looking at the weapons they use - sword, hammer, and spear). There are definitely other connections from other sources/legends/mythologies for each of them (and other places, objects, people in the books).

Eldan
2009-07-29, 04:58 PM
I've only read Elantris, because the other books Sanderson wrote just weren't available to me, but was I the only one who thought the twist was really obvious? My reaction to (spoiler: the necessary modification of the runes) was "Wait, they didn't try that in the first place when the city fell?"

douglas
2009-07-29, 05:52 PM
I've only read Elantris, because the other books Sanderson wrote just weren't available to me, but was I the only one who thought the twist was really obvious? My reaction to the necessary modification of the runes was "Wait, they didn't try that in the first place when the city fell?"
The earthquake being the cause of the fall of Elantris did jump out at me as extremely obvious when it was mentioned in (I think) the first chapter, though it was not obvious how the causal relationship worked and I wasn't completely certain it wasn't a case of a third event causing both. The Aons representing the shape of the land did not occur to me until Sarene pointed it out, at which point my reaction was pretty much slapping myself on the forehead and saying "oh, duh." Elantris itself being an Aon is the bit that really caught me by surprise.

As for why they didn't try it immediately, it seems entirely reasonable to me that Elantris was founded so long ago that the knowledge of the Aons' relationship to the land's shape and, in particular, the purpose of the city walls as an Aon either got completely lost or relegated to dusty books that only a few dedicated scholars bothered to read. The shape of the land isn't exactly something that changes on a large scale frequently, and once the Elantris Aon got set up in the first place no one really needed to think about it any more. Plus, their servants may have never given them the chance to explain - the spontaneous transformation of their gods into ugly zombies for unknown (to the servants) reasons could easily have sparked a panic that resulted in a murderous rampaging mob.

As I've already mentioned, Elantris is Sanderson's debut novel, the very first novel he ever got published. You have to keep that in mind when evaluating how good it is and realize that he's constantly improving.

Kallisti
2009-07-29, 06:30 PM
I knew that the series was being finished. But you say the new author is talented and worth reading. Interesting...

Krrth
2009-07-30, 09:42 AM
I didn't doubt that everybody's a mishmash of various sources, I just don't see the Rand <-> Thor connection (and therefore Mjolnir <-> Callandor).

The Norse gods that I'd associate with Rand, Perrin, and Mat would be Tyr, Thor, and Odin respectively (if nothing else than looking at the weapons they use - sword, hammer, and spear). There are definitely other connections from other sources/legends/mythologies for each of them (and other places, objects, people in the books).

Don't forget, not all the sources were supposed to be Deep. As far as I know, the only real connection to Thor was with the names (I asked about that one.)

HamHam
2009-07-30, 09:56 PM
The little preview blurb on the JordanCon program about The Gathering Storm, also available a few other places, I think, emphasizes Rand and Egwene pretty strongly.

Dissapointing. I would prefer three books of just Mat doing stuff. Because everyone else is dumb and boring.

douglas
2009-07-31, 06:29 AM
Jason Denzel of dragonmount.com has read The Gathering Storm and reviewed it here (http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=585). I'm sad that I'll have to wait another three months to read what he's talking about, but it sounds like it will be more than worth the wait.

Mat apparently is in the book for more than a throwaway scene, but Jason was rather vague about how far he gets.

For anyone worried about it being another "nothing important happens" book, this sentence might interest you: "I can confirm that there are not one, but TWO climaxes at the end of this book. Big ones. Both are events we’ve been waiting for for a long time."

Anteros
2009-08-11, 04:12 AM
Bumping this up because I just read Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy in order to get a feel for his writing style.

Overall, I liked the books quite a bit...but does it strike anyone else that he's extremely fond of Deus ex Machina endings? Granted, he does hint at things to come throughout the novels...but the endings just seem clumsy and unsatisfying to me. It really worries me because primarily what he's going to be writing for Jordan is an ending.

Ah well. I guess I'll just hope that Jordan detailed out what he wanted already and that Sanderson sticks to it.

douglas
2009-08-11, 06:51 AM
Overall, I liked the books quite a bit...but does it strike anyone else that he's extremely fond of Deus ex Machina endings?
Er, no? None of his endings are Deus ex Machina. The original meaning of the term was that, quite literally, a god descends from heaven for no particular reason and sorts everything out. No advance setup, no regard for all the struggles and plot up to that point, just a god coming out of nowhere and making all the plot up to that point pointless.

The endings of all three Mistborn books are major twists and surprises, but they all make perfect sense, are logical extensions of things already revealed to a significant degree, and are the proper culmination of previous events. For any of them to be Deus ex Machina, these traits would have to be absent.


Granted, he does hint at things to come throughout the novels...but the endings just seem clumsy and unsatisfying to me. It really worries me because primarily what he's going to be writing for Jordan is an ending.
Clumsy? How so? They typically involve some major new revelations and sometimes drastic changes of direction, but that does not make them clumsy unless they were not properly set up, and in every case there is plenty of setup, foreshadowing, and hints.


Ah well. I guess I'll just hope that Jordan detailed out what he wanted already and that Sanderson sticks to it.
Don't worry, Jordan left large quantities of notes, and most of the actual very end he did have fully written. Sanderson is a major fan of the series himself, and is sticking to the notes as much as he reasonably can.

Erts
2009-08-11, 12:40 PM
Different != Bad. And, considering most people don't like 8 through 10 (I, personally found them pretty good), maybe Different = Good?

I think the reason that people think this is because they are less exciting as the predessesors.

On the Mat Perrin Rand discussion; I agree that Mat is the most interesting, but Perrin is a very close second. Rand is also certainly not boring.

I'm glad that Jordan made them very original, instead of having them be the same in the end, he made all of them more dark, and in doing so, more interesting.

Anteros
2009-08-11, 02:42 PM
Er, no? None of his endings are Deus ex Machina. The original meaning of the term was that, quite literally, a god descends from heaven for no particular reason and sorts everything out. No advance setup, no regard for all the struggles and plot up to that point, just a god coming out of nowhere and making all the plot up to that point pointless.

The endings of all three Mistborn books are major twists and surprises, but they all make perfect sense, are logical extensions of things already revealed to a significant degree, and are the proper culmination of previous events. For any of them to be Deus ex Machina, these traits would have to be absent.




What exactly resolves the plot of every single Mistborn book? For the first two books, "Oh look, the protagonist suddenly was able to draw upon the previously unmentioned power of God itself to defeat the enemy!" and then in the last book "Oh look, a side character became God and made everything all better..."

The only justification given for any of this is that a god (preservation) who was introduced to the reader in the second half of the last book of the trilogy, was working behind the scenes to make this happen. But sure, it's not deus ex machina at all. :smallsigh:

douglas
2009-08-11, 03:32 PM
... You apparently aren't very good at spotting and recognizing the setup for these. There was a lot more justification and advance hinting and foreshadowing than that.

For the first book:
Oh look, the protagonist figured out, with copious hints, who the main villain really was and what his big weak spot is. She then managed to hit said weak spot with a moderate temporary increase in the power of her existing abilities, the source of which is a mystery that helps lead in to the rest of the trilogy.

Second book:
"Previously unmentioned"? How about "mentioned in the title of the book, plus dozens of times in the text of the book itself as well as in the previous book"? Seriously, you should have seen the Well of Ascension coming miles away. And then she ended up releasing the enemy from prison rather than defeating it. Even the bead of metal that made Elend a mistborn should not have been all that incredible a surprise - it's mentioned explicitly multiple times in the series that Allomancy was initially the Lord Ruler's gift to his closest supporters, and that power had to come from somewhere.

Third book:
The mists, them being a source of power, and the Mist Spirit have been there since book 1 (though the latter is only mentioned in the logbook there). Vin's earring being a hemalurgic spike should have been easy to figure out well in advance of Marsh tearing it off, and it blocking access to the mists should also have been fairly obvious - especially with how it reacted to the proximity of the Well of Ascension at the end of book 2, and the explanation of its bloody origin plus the newly revealed nature of hemalurgy in book 3. There were quite a few people who'd figured that one out before book 3 even got published.

Did you really not wonder and speculate at all about why Vin was able to draw on the mists at certain occasions, who and what the mist spirit and mysterious unfindable mistborn were, and what was going on with the mists? And did you really expect a godlike entity like Ruin to be beaten without bringing an opposing godlike force into the picture, especially after the glimpse of that power given at the Well at the end of book 2? The stage was set quite well for Vin's ascension.

And then you have Sazed. "Oh look, an important character (main protagonist or not) followed existing precedent (Vin), fit a much discussed prophecy's details better than any previously proposed candidate, and avoided a predecessor's (Rashek's) mistakes for well explained perfectly logical reasons."

daecrist
2009-08-11, 05:37 PM
I'm new enough to the forums that I'm not quite sure how to hide spoilers, but I always felt like Sanderson's endings were broadcast well before the end. In fact in Elantris it annoyed me that I had it figured out about halfway through and for the rest of the book I was waiting for the point where he got off the genre subversion and back into safe fantasy trope territory.

I think that Sanderson has a great ability to wrap things up, and this is going to be an asset for the Wheel of Time.

Anteros
2009-08-11, 07:56 PM
Just because something is internally consistent, and foreshadowed doesn't make it good. For the record, I actually liked the vast majority of this series. I just felt that the ending was cheap.


Sure, the things Sanderson wrote make sense to a degree. That, however doesn't make them entertaining or well written. It also makes sense that Zeus would come down from the clouds to rescue his son Hercules when he gets in trouble. It doesn't make it any less Deus ex machina when it happens.

I'm sorry, but I truly don't believe that hinting and foreshadowing throughout the book that there is a greater being guiding them justifies an ending where God suddenly empowers the protagonists and solves all of their problems. It would be like in the Wheel of Time series if the Creator suddenly destroyed the Dark one. Sure, we've seen hints that he's involved in what's going on...but he's not going to come down and fight Rand's battles for him.

Also, in regards to the second book...I was actually referring to the climactic battle against Zane rather than the part concerning the well.

Forbiddenwar
2009-08-11, 08:17 PM
Bumping this up because I just read Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy in order to get a feel for his writing style.

Overall, I liked the books quite a bit...but does it strike anyone else that he's extremely fond of Deus ex Machina endings? Granted, he does hint at things to come throughout the novels...but the endings just seem clumsy and unsatisfying to me. It really worries me because primarily what he's going to be writing for Jordan is an ending.

Ah well. I guess I'll just hope that Jordan detailed out what he wanted already and that Sanderson sticks to it.

Actually, no he won't be writing the end.
The beginning and the end are pure Jordan written before he died. Sanderson is only writing the in between. And I don't think mrs Jordan would let him change what was already written, even if it gets in his mind.

If your unsure, due to the new author doing too much or not enough, just get it from the library first. If you request it now, you may not have to wait too long once it is released.

douglas
2009-08-11, 09:04 PM
Sure, the things Sanderson wrote make sense to a degree. That, however doesn't make them entertaining or well written. It also makes sense that Zeus would come down from the clouds to rescue his son Hercules when he gets in trouble. It doesn't make it any less Deus ex machina when it happens.
I really don't think that's a good comparison. That would be like if Preservation just said "Oh, sorry, I was faking being gone and all that. I'm a lot more powerful than Ruin, too. Here, let me bottle him back up for you while you go on your way." Deus ex Machina is when an effectively all powerful figure makes the previous plot irrelevant. In Mistborn, the intervention of the "god figure", such as it is, would not have been possible without the previous plot developments, and even when it does happen it's still actively driven by the same protagonists as before.


I'm sorry, but I truly don't believe that hinting and foreshadowing throughout the book that there is a greater being guiding them justifies an ending where God suddenly empowers the protagonists and solves all of their problems. It would be like in the Wheel of Time series if the Creator suddenly destroyed the Dark one. Sure, we've seen hints that he's involved in what's going on...but he's not going to come down and fight Rand's battles for him.
Actually, we've seen explicit statements that the Creator is very much a hands-off deity. Any and every hint of the Creator's involvement has always been about his chosen champion and the pattern of the Wheel's weaving. He set things up and then let it all go with no further interference, and all the characters know this. All the hints in Mistborn point towards a god figure who is still doing what he can to aid the struggle directly, and some of them point specifically towards "god" empowering the protagonists.


Also, in regards to the second book...I was actually referring to the climactic battle against Zane rather than the part concerning the well.

Huh? There was no godly intervention at all in that one, Vin won that entirely on her own.

Anyway, I suspect we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And, you might be interested to know that Elantris and Warbreaker do not feature this kind of ending. Surprise but foreshadowed twists, yes, but no large scale divine intervention.

Anteros
2009-08-12, 02:34 AM
I really don't think that's a good comparison. That would be like if Preservation just said "Oh, sorry, I was faking being gone and all that. I'm a lot more powerful than Ruin, too. Here, let me bottle him back up for you while you go on your way." Deus ex Machina is when an effectively all powerful figure makes the previous plot irrelevant. In Mistborn, the intervention of the "god figure", such as it is, would not have been possible without the previous plot developments, and even when it does happen it's still actively driven by the same protagonists as before.


Actually, we've seen explicit statements that the Creator is very much a hands-off deity. Any and every hint of the Creator's involvement has always been about his chosen champion and the pattern of the Wheel's weaving. He set things up and then let it all go with no further interference, and all the characters know this. All the hints in Mistborn point towards a god figure who is still doing what he can to aid the struggle directly, and some of them point specifically towards "god" empowering the protagonists.


Huh? There was no godly intervention at all in that one, Vin won that entirely on her own.

Anyway, I suspect we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And, you might be interested to know that Elantris and Warbreaker do not feature this kind of ending. Surprise but foreshadowed twists, yes, but no large scale divine intervention.

That is actually good to know. I was planning on reading those two next, but I wasn't sure if I wanted to invest the time in them if the ending was going to be similar.

But I think you're right. We'll simply have to disagree on this.