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Maerok
2009-07-25, 05:03 PM
What is the basis for magic words? As far as divine magic, there's someone on the receiving end to parse your requests for divine spells. But even still, unless the god is really picky you probably shouldn't need to call upon the exact Prayer #57 subsection 10 in order to use a divine spell (though I'm sure Wee Jas, Boccob, Cuthbert, Hextor, and the like are pretty rigid about that).

This also reaches into things like "IRL magic" with Wicca and the like...

But as far as arcane magic goes, and this applies to HP and other books as well (or as in The Mummy with the 'Egyptian' chants, which may very well be divine), what's the mechanism behind spoken words and syllables to invoke an effect? I'm sure this also happens with Lovecraftian spells, but for that I'll assume that it works by the very merit of being strange and incomprehensible. I see Lovecraft spells as perhaps 'divine' with regards in invoking or simply talking to an abhorrent patron.

It just seems like people mutter incoherent syllables or butchered Latin in order to unleash an ancient beast or spell. Maybe this is just the most visible part of casting a spell (alongside the somatic parts and force of will) but it seems strange. If it's to get you in the particular mood of a spell, I'm sure there are other (less lame?) ways to do it.

I've done some work fleshing out a rune-based magic style for a long story I was working on. But that was more like a science in that different shapes and curvatures opened gates by which one could unleash the power of the four elemental planes that underlay the dominant world. Just poking a dot into the fabric of reality will give you just a flow of unspecialized energy, but carving different geometric patterns (sometimes non-Euclidean) sort of like a complex double-slit experiment would shape the inflowing magical energy into what may be called a spell.

With regards to Truenaming, that's a whole different (incompetent) thing altogether.

Random832
2009-07-25, 05:18 PM
Some settings will privilege some language (ancient sumerian, hebrew, etc) above other languages as being the single "real" or "most primitive" language and having some fundamental relationship with reality or with the human brain.

Other than that, incoherent syllables makes the most sense - D&D doesn't specify, it's just a verbal component and mechanically doesn't work when silenced.

Glyde
2009-07-25, 05:30 PM
I was under the impression that verbal components, scrolls and glyphs were in some form of Draconic.

Myiven
2009-07-25, 05:38 PM
Depending on the tone of the campaign, I may or may not use Pig Latin for spell casting. :)

Raltar
2009-07-25, 05:47 PM
I always figured arcane was Draconic, divine was Celestial, Infernal or Abyssal(depending on your deity) and druidic magic would be sylvan.

TheThan
2009-07-25, 05:48 PM
Faux Latin?

Shademan
2009-07-25, 05:50 PM
I always figured arcane was Draconic, divine was Celestial, Infernal or Abyssal(depending on your deity) and druidic magic would be sylvan.

or druidic magic would be...you know... druid.
that secret language ;P

Keld Denar
2009-07-25, 05:51 PM
Faux Latin?

Hey, it worked for the sound guys a Blizzard when they wrote the scores for most of the music in World of Warcraft....

And yes, I did hear that straight from one of the composers at a Blizzard Live concert last week. WoW music + HUGE symphony orchestra = win!

The Neoclassic
2009-07-25, 06:01 PM
The basis of (rationale behind?) the nature of magical words... This is quite an interesting question!

I imagine it'd depend on the setting and how the DM chooses to handle it, of course. If a player specifically asked me, I'd probably say that certain syllables when uttered with the right intent were able to tap into the magical energies necessary to cast the spell. I'd perhaps say that it was the combination of the will to cast the spell and the actual saying of the words... So if you just feel like casting something, it doesn't happen semi-spontaneously (thus allowing you more control, rather than your whims controlling you), but of course even the right syllables without magical skill or intent behind them are powerless.

I don't know really how to describe the mechanism persay in much more detail, except perhaps looking at the need for verbal components as a lock. Behind the locked door is magical energy and potential spells; the right words act as a key. The lock and key are useless without the power behind that door, and that power without an established system to keep it from being released would be dangerous or at least inefficient.

Just my way of looking at it though; I'm curious to hear other approaches.

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-25, 06:18 PM
I always interpreted the verbal component as exactly that

You have to say something. You can say whatever you want, as long as it is said castery. Yelling "FIREBALL!" will work, as will "HIYAAH!" or "Wake up, TIME TO DIE!"

Noble Savant
2009-07-25, 06:24 PM
I always had a bit of a different perspective on it.

The universe is governed by a very rigid set of rules. Thermodynamics and all those other fun guys. Of course, as all rules, if you know enough, you can get around them. This is where magic comes in, the precise combination of funny hand wiggling and latin-esque yelling is a backdoor in the universe, that unleashes awesome forces. The bigger spells break the rules harder, and require even more difficult to memorize hand wiggling and yelling.

In short, knowledge is the power to find the backdoors of reality.

Revanmal
2009-07-25, 06:27 PM
I would always explain it as the various verbal and somatic components being just a focusing tool to allow the caster's will to bend reality. The words and movements don't actually mean anything, and in fact can be different for any particular spell caster.

An example in literature would be the Aes Sedai from Wheel of Time. In the books many Aes Sedai, when hurling fireballs, make a throwing motion when doing so. This is not actually necessary, but they do it anyway because it either helps them focus or old habits are hard to break.

That's my two cents, anyway.

The Neoclassic
2009-07-25, 06:31 PM
I would always explain it as the various verbal and somatic components being just a focusing tool to allow the caster's will to bend reality. The words and movements don't actually mean anything, and in fact can be different for any particular spell caster.

An example in literature would be the Aes Sedai from Wheel of Time. In the books many Aes Sedai, when hurling fireballs, make a throwing motion when doing so. This is not actually necessary, but they do it anyway because it either helps them focus or old habits are hard to break.

Oooh, now that's an interesting approach. I may have to incorporate elements of that into my take, if you don't mind. That allows for more individual variation- and also explains why you can do spells without verbal or somatic components if you train yourself. (though it is harder - hence the feat and spell level shift).

MickJay
2009-07-25, 06:36 PM
A couple of the IRL approaches: specific words are uttered so that binding of demons/spirits/lesser deities to do your bidding is achieved (assumption that there are words and/or rituals capable of forcing a supernatural being to obey humans). This, basically, is how theurgy is supposed to work.

Another possible approach is that certain words have, in and of themselves, power sufficient to alter reality in accordance with man's wishes: prime example is the true name of God from the Old Testament; one of the Jewish apocryphal texts describes how a certain audacious Nazarene stole the secret of the name, kept in the Temple in Jerusalem, and with its power performed miracles, until he got defeated in an aerial battle against Judas, who was entrusted with the same name by the priests. In this example, it doesn't matter whether the user had good intentions or not - the name's power was always the same.

In any case, the words always have a meaning, they either represent something that manifests itself, or affect the supernatural world to effect the result the mage desires (or not, if something went wrong). The idea that words themselves don't matter is quite rare - it's much more common in modern fiction, where authors rarely bother with doing research on RL magical practices and coming up with complex systems to justify magic in their settings.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-25, 06:47 PM
Faux Latin?

Latin, Sanskrit, Greek, and Japanese all work for incantations. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MahouSenseiNegima)

Maerok
2009-07-25, 06:53 PM
@ First six or so posters: *Facepalm* A language! Doesn't matter which one in particular...

Well as far as a spoken words go, why not bell ringing or something? Such that all 'verbals' exist within a musical focus. That seems more consistent than some random dude running up to me and shouting "Avada Kevadra!"

Hell, this even ties into Naruto folk running around screaming "____ Jutsu!!!" at each other (how much of that is bastardized Japanese as opposed to your typical Latin mash-up in the West?). If you're going to say anything, then it should maybe be a bit more personal of a mantra but I'd think that it wasn't the words that were doing anything; they'd just be getting you 'in the zone'.

Just someone talking out loud doesn't seem fundamental enough to draw up some kind of arcane effect. What seems silly is that you could make a chart of every two-syllable combination of several different syllables and see what they do by going through the chart one by one.

Nightmarenny
2009-07-25, 06:53 PM
Your all dancing around the obvious. Magic words exist in D&D for the same reason everything exists in D&D. Because it exists somewhere in our culture, and it exists because humans have always believed that words had an inherent power to them.

afroakuma
2009-07-25, 06:59 PM
I use Italian for arcane magic most of the time.

As far as somatic/verbal whatevers go, I've always ran it that somatic components, while variable between wizards and even between power levels on the same spell (how did you think your fireball was doing 6d6 damage?) have a few distinct patterns that are inherent to the style and shape of the magic. For example, a wizard's fireball needs a somatic component to conjure flame from the material component, a second to lock in the spherical shape and store the explosive potential energy and heat, and a third to actually release the fireball in the correct direction. Lot to think about, so we usually don't, but it can be interesting for flavor or as a thought exercise from time to time.

Now, a Quickened fireball needs only a single command word and a single, brief somatic component to trigger the material component to ignite and release the spell. If I need to know which one, I go for the one most essential to the spell. What's most essential about fireball: that it be a ball, or that it be on fire? Therefore the first component from above is the Quickened somatic component.

For those who are wondering, my sorcerer usually uses the arcane phrase "regalo di compleanno" to cast a fireball. :smallamused:

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-25, 07:15 PM
For those who are wondering, my sorcerer usually uses the arcane phrase "regalo di compleanno" to cast a fireball. :smallamused:

hehehehehehe.

Maerok
2009-07-25, 08:29 PM
Your all dancing around the obvious. Magic words exist in D&D for the same reason everything exists in D&D. Because it exists somewhere in our culture, and it exists because humans have always believed that words had an inherent power to them.

I'm talking about the second part more than the first part. And more towards the how of it than the why...

I'd like to at least establish some kind of pseudoscience behind how shouting gibberish at people can make them explode. Whether this happens in D&D, Harry Potter, etc. specifically isn't relevant to me right now.

oxinabox
2009-07-25, 09:30 PM
I love Noble Savant's idea, that magic was a backdoor to the system of the universe.
the universe was constucted on contract from god.
the idea was a fully functioning set of laws that only god (=divine magic) can break.
But noone makes a system that large and complex without leaving a bcackdoor for maintainace, or just for having control over things that we shouldn't (eg the maker of a bank secrutiy system leaves a backdoor so he can add money to his account).
magic is the key to this backdoor


I wrote (or more likely stole, and forgot who i stole it from) a system.
Magic is like a river.
It has 2 banks, one side is runes (or a anothjer way of looing at is is that runes create magic).
Runes are magic, for everyone in every culture they are the same.
the other bank is magic.
Mages can control this magic the change the world.
Only an ideal thought can cast a spell. (potentailly draining the mage of all his magic and life energy and killing him, if he ideally thoguh about, whiping bugs from the fadce of the earth)
So since an ideal though could unleash magic it wasn't safe to be around magic users.
Mages meditate to try to gain control over their thoughts.

But a great mage came up with a safeguard.
Magic users would be taught from birth that magic could only be accessed, with words, in a dead lanugage (in my world it's callled ancient Vanal).
So since they beleived the words were necessary they didn't accidentally cast.

Nostri
2009-07-25, 10:04 PM
One of the better explanations is that everything about casting a spell except the expenditure of will is window dressing and aide for the spellcaster. As far as verbal components specifically could be said in any language but because of how most casters are trained they learn to do it in (insert language X here) they have have to cast in that language because "that's how it works" for them. You could cast in plain English (or Spanish or French or whatever) but it would make spells that much harder to cast because you'd have to keep the 'normal' word for fire separate from the 'magic' word for fire so you didn't accidentally set your house on fire when you got ticked off or something.

Keld Denar
2009-07-25, 10:22 PM
"Wake up, TIME TO DIE!"

Yay DotA! You rock!

afroakuma
2009-07-25, 10:47 PM
I'd like to at least establish some kind of pseudoscience behind how shouting gibberish at people can make them explode. Whether this happens in D&D, Harry Potter, etc. specifically isn't relevant to me right now.

Alright, how about this:

Magic language is an ancient tongue spoken by the gods at creation to bend first magic, then matter to their designs and lock it in place.

Mortals can learn this language as it relates to very specific process; this has been trial and error over a long period of time, and some attempts simply don't work at all because the gods never spoke to the universe in that fashion.

Now, the raw words of magic alone are useless to most people because the force of magic could only ever be directed by godly will. The introduction of somatic components allows mortals to define in a physical, spatial sense how they want the magic they speak to take form and define itself. The gods didn't need to do this; it's something mortals use as a bypass.

Further, a lot of arcane magic requires a third kind of component: a material component. At creation, the gods spoke magic into everything, and these objects recall the words that went into them, the magic that created them and everything about it. Involving them in the process unlocks a "second voice" that speaks alongside your own, writing a deeper and more nuanced kind of magic that allows for greater complexities than you could define with your vocabulary and crude sign language alone. In doing so, you unbind the words of magic from the object, thus destroying it to get at the magic within. Foci are similar.

In rare cases, these components can act individually. The so-called "power words" are in fact just that; single words of arcane might so potent that to speak one is to jar it from your own memory (if a wizard) or drain you of the capability to speak it again (if a sorcerer). Some magic has been fashioned entirely by complex gestures that ambient magical energy responds to, such as the spell of silence.

Above all, though, magic requires desire and a fundamental understanding of the forces and phrases you are trying to trigger, even if unspoken. Even if I somehow learned a "power word," my speaking it, even with the desire to kill, stun or blind, is futile without a fundamental understanding of the ancient meaning and nuance of the word, how it relates to arcane power and how I might need to inflect it to produce a magical result of varying potency. This understanding comes from either study or from innate, inborn capability; the level of precision and control over magic derives either from reasoned tinkering and logic (wizards' Int-based DCs) or from familiarity with one's own latent power and the force of desire strong enough to make it manifest (sorcerers' Cha-based DCs).

RTGoodman
2009-07-26, 01:39 AM
Regarding D&D casting and languages: the language of magic is NOT Draconic, Infernal, or any of those things. It's a separate "language" (whether it's an ancient, more primitive version of a modern one, one specifically used for magic, or whatever) that, in some way, is connected to the fundamental structure of the universe. However you want to see it, it's not a normal language - that's why you need special training or spells (i.e., Spellcraft, read magic, etc.) to even be able to decipher it.


Anyway, for the main topic, here's the thing: words have Power. They affect people, drive them to do things they normally wouldn't, evoke emotional reactions, imprint themselves as a part of memory. And that's NORMAL words. When you're talking a primordial language devised when the world was young, a language that's so pure that a word doesn't just refer to a thing (like me saying the word "chair") but instead is inherently connected to that thing (the paragon/idea of Chair), just using those words can make wondrous things happen. This is part of Plato's ideas about metaphysics (the Allegory of the Cave talks about this), where what we see in the world are just the shadows, the semi-real forms, of those Ideals. While I may interact with a chair, I haven't really changed or manipulated the perfect Form or Idea of Chair.

If I were a Wizard, yes, I could just say the word "fireball" or whatever the equivalent in another language, to little avail. But, if I find the word in that ancient language that evokes the true Form of Fireball (with a capital F), pronounce that Word of Power while ALSO knowing and willing/desiring its true meaning, then the spell is cast.

Now, this doesn't exactly fit D&D spellcasting, but that's because material components, somatic components, and so on come from different literary sources. (I think material components are definitely right out of Vance, but I'm not sure about somatic components - I can't think of any non-D&D based fantasy where holding one's fingers right is a part of casting a spell.) Basically, this is just me justifying how Magic would work in our world, and why it works, at least partially, in many fantasy worlds.


As an aside, we use "faux Latin," Sanskrit, and other languages like that because, well, to us, that's what an ancient language is like. There's no actual language called Proto-Indo European, so the oldest language we have is down to PIE fragments, which are close enough to later languages not to matter, or we have those actual languages.

arguskos
2009-07-26, 02:20 AM
I tend to go with the idea that magic is a tongue of it's own, one that you can even learn to speak, if you are powerful enough, though that is not without its own dangers.

My thought is that there is a field of magic all around everyone (the Weave, if you are familiar with the Forgotten Realms setting, which I steal wholesale for my setting, since I like it a lot), and that by speaking the Primordial Tongue and making the correct, hard to define gestures, a mage (I use mage in this sense to mean wizard only, mind you) may unlock and shape the left over energies of creation.

On a side note, every caster does this, on some level. Sorcerers do the same thing, but they don't need the complex gestures. Instead, sorcerers use their personal energy to simply gesture as they think it should be done, and use a more powerful natural connection to the universe to channel enough power to do as they want (basically, they brute force the lock, wizards pick it). Clerics are much as mages are, but they are given the key by their god (all clerics in my world must have a god), and they simply open the door. Druids are guided by nature to find a key, and this metaphorical key varies for each druid (since all druids must have a divine focus, and it varies for each, their focus is their "key").

The psionics tap magic through the power of the mind, shadow magic through the plane of shadow as a lens, binders create effects through eldritch pacts giving them the knowledge. It's the same power, but different in shape and effect. Think about it as if magic is an egg. You can eat it 40 different ways, but it's still an egg at the end of the day.

bosssmiley
2009-07-26, 09:33 AM
Arcane magic is the patterning of neural pathways in the mind with otherworldly power, right? (I'm taking this from Vance himself, so no squawking it's an asspull on my part)

Once memorised these spells are like a gun with a chambered round: all they need is a small, carefully directed energy input to release their latent power in the right direction. The correct combination of verbal and somatic actions triggers neural patterns in the brain of the wizard that 'pull the trigger/lanyard' and release the previously memorised arcana into the world, usually through the catalyst of a material component (thus exploiting the well known magical law that "like-attracts-like").

Why particular languages? Because they make the right patterns in the wizard's neural set-up.

There ya go. One pseudo-science justification for Vancian casting, which also covers why wizards don't just go nova when they die. ... Although wouldn't it be fun if they did? :smallbiggrin:

As to "Why magic words?" Children in our world learn early the efficacy of pointing and making sounds in order to get what they want. Belief in magic is a retention of this infantile discovery that the world will conform to your wishes if you point and go "I want!" hard enough. That is also why science works, and magic doesn't. :smallamused:

Darcand
2009-07-26, 01:59 PM
I would always explain it as the various verbal and somatic components being just a focusing tool to allow the caster's will to bend reality. The words and movements don't actually mean anything, and in fact can be different for any particular spell caster.

An example in literature would be the Aes Sedai from Wheel of Time. In the books many Aes Sedai, when hurling fireballs, make a throwing motion when doing so. This is not actually necessary, but they do it anyway because it either helps them focus or old habits are hard to break.

That's my two cents, anyway.

This is far and away the best response, and to back that up we need to look at the "true" spellcasters, sorcerers. Despite being inate sorcerer spells still require verbal and somatic components. Words and movements they never studied.

Mages come along later and study those same phrases in an attempt to recreate the accident, so to speak, to understand how speaking or throwing an imaginary stone can help the caster focus his personal energy. Because of this form of study mages can more readily apply alterations to spells (represented by bonus feats) and because they are not natural casters they are more limited in the number of time per day they can take a dip in the mana pool (represented by spells per day)

So then to reiterate, the language of magc is common...or orcish.....or elven, dwarven, and goblin.

Strawman
2009-07-26, 02:19 PM
I think the problem is that you are trying to make logical sense out of the preperation for an impossible thing. The magic language could be somehow tied with the same intangible non-understandle thing that is magic itself.

Also, language has always been used as a tool by human being to enhance our thoughts. We understand a thing better when our language accomadates the thing's existence. Try explaining an iPod to someone from Ancient Greece.

It may be that a magical language is necessary to understand how the magic works, just as binary is necessary to understand how a computer works.

As to why the language has to be spoken aloud during some spells? Who knows. It is probably one of those things that we can never know about magic. Although even that is our own decision, as we have fabricated the system of magic for D&D.

If you do not like the spoken magic words, do not use them. If you want to use the same rules as everyone else but want to understand why the spoken rules are necessary, I do not think you will find a very great answer. At best you will find an answer that appeals to your sensibilities.

Morty
2009-07-26, 02:28 PM
That's an interesting question, one I've given some thought before. In my homebrew non-D&D setting, it used to be the language of old, powerful beings who created magic - while they simply said what they want and it happened if their will was strong enough, mortal wizards repeat words from their language without understanding it in order to achieve desired effects. I duped that idea at some point, though. But it most definetly isn't Draconic and it never will. Not everything needs to be connected to those overgrown flying reptiles.:smallannoyed:
Another idea I like, but it applies to stories set in real world, is that spells are chanted in dead or almost dead languages such as Latin, Old Greek, Old Church Slavonic, Aramean etc, because the wizards who created them spoke those languages.

NuclearKnight
2009-07-26, 03:33 PM
I haven't read too much of Discworld but don't mages have to protect themselves from blowing themselves up? IIHC...

Darcand
2009-07-26, 03:38 PM
I haven't read too much of Discworld but don't mages have to protect themselves from blowing themselves up? IIHC...

A discworld wizard's (or wizzard's in one noteable case) primary job is to not do magic. None at all. And eat alot of very large dinners while argueing loudly over the theories of magic.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-26, 03:56 PM
A discworld wizard's (or wizzard's in one noteable case) primary job is to not do magic. None at all. And eat alot of very large dinners while argueing loudly over the theories of magic.

Not exactly: The wizard's job is to know exactly how to do magic (sort of) and know exactly when magic would help best (as much as he can), but also know why magic shouldn't be used in that instance. If the reason comes down to "because I'm old, fat, and lazy," well...that's where the large dinners come in.

only1doug
2009-07-26, 04:17 PM
The discworld has been exposed to vast amounts of powerful magic, the fabric of the space-time continuum is starting to wear a bit thin and things from the dungeon dimensions can break through if magic is used in the thinnest areas.
Nothing hurts the things from the dungeon dimensions worse than maliciously not using magic at them. (I don't mean not using magic like a peasant who doesn't know any spells or even not using magic like a wizard running away scared. I mean deliberately not casting fireball at the things from the dungeon dimensions, or deliberately not magic missileing them.)

NuclearKnight
2009-07-26, 06:42 PM
"Quick! Throw the bard!"

MickJay
2009-07-26, 08:06 PM
I haven't read too much of Discworld but don't mages have to protect themselves from blowing themselves up? IIHC...

It's the swamp dragons that blow themselves up (when they're excited, angry, bored, scared, etc). The wizards have to avoid everything that is connected with number "8", using magic too much, having sex (or, more to the point, having an eighth son) and Mustrum Ridcully, the Archchancellor. In earlier books, they had to avoid nasty spells, traps and poisons prepared by other wizards, but things got somewhat less deadly since Ridcully took over the UU.

VirOath
2009-07-27, 01:28 AM
On the British history side of things, there was a language that was based off of the Latin alphabet that was supposed to be used for magic. The workings of the words held power, and done right someone could be taught to cast spells

It was literally the language of magic. I had a Shadowrun Mage that knew it, but I can't recall the name of the language.

Cicciograna
2009-07-27, 03:55 AM
I use Italian for arcane magic most of the time.
[...]
For those who are wondering, my sorcerer usually uses the arcane phrase "regalo di compleanno" to cast a fireball. :smallamused:

I don't know. As an italian, I always saw Italian as very, very lame when it comes to spellcasting, preferring English or some sort of Latin; this is not the case of some of my players who, sometimes, when casting spells, use Italian words. Usually vulgar ones, depending from the length of the fight and the toughness of their enemy :smallredface: .

Blacky the Blackball
2009-07-27, 04:12 AM
I always interpreted the verbal component as exactly that

You have to say something. You can say whatever you want, as long as it is said castery. Yelling "FIREBALL!" will work, as will "HIYAAH!" or "Wake up, TIME TO DIE!"

Not "Hadōken"?

mistformsquirrl
2009-07-27, 04:30 AM
I would always explain it as the various verbal and somatic components being just a focusing tool to allow the caster's will to bend reality. The words and movements don't actually mean anything, and in fact can be different for any particular spell caster.

An example in literature would be the Aes Sedai from Wheel of Time. In the books many Aes Sedai, when hurling fireballs, make a throwing motion when doing so. This is not actually necessary, but they do it anyway because it either helps them focus or old habits are hard to break.

That's my two cents, anyway.

This is the way I do it as well; though my source for the 'why' is a bit different.

Mage: The Ascension pretty much bases it's entire magic system on this idea.

Essentially; what really matters is the caster's willpower and knowledge of the underlying principles of the universe.

The actual components - material, gestural, verbal - they don't really mean anything; but because most mages believe they need them to work magic - they do. Mages who grow powerful enough and truly understand the universe can divest themselves of such things - though continuing to use them has a benefit at this point (it aids in concentration, kind of like a mnemonic device for spellcasting).

I've pretty much used an altered version of this explanation as the "how/why" for spellcasting in most of my campaigns.

The homebrew world I'm working on right now though doesn't yet have an explanation for this; and I'm planning on trying to come up with one (rather than using the above method)

Twilight Jack
2009-07-27, 04:40 AM
The language itself is not important. What's important is the underlying understanding of the principles at work. The words are a focus, driven into the foundations of the world by repetition.

That's why a more powerful wizard can cast the same spell without saying anything at all. Silent Spell works the way it does for a reason. The words are imprinted into reality as a rote path. You can make magic happen without them, but it is more difficult and more draining upon your personal reserves (higher effective spell level).

Were the language ultimately important, then all wizards' spellbooks would look roughly the same, instead of being highly personalized affairs which must be individually interpretted in order to be utilized.

Blacky the Blackball
2009-07-27, 04:41 AM
Historically, there are two main types of "magical utterances" (at least in the West - I have no idea about ancient Chinese medicine, for example).

The first is that there is a long tradition from the Sumerians through the Egyptians (we have lots of their examples) where "spells" and prayers were basically the same sort of incantation. You would recite or speak in your own native language, and the gods/spirits/daemons or whatever would hear you and (hopefully) give you the effect you wanted.

In a D&D game, this would mean that the verbal components of spells are literally requests of whatever "powers that be" grant spells to grant certain effects.

The second - largely invented by Edward Kelley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Kelley), was the use of a non-earth language called Enochian. Enochian was supposedly the "original" language that God spoke in when he created the world, and which humans spoke before the Tower of Babel - and which angels still speak. Kelley and Dee equivocated somewhat on whether magic using Enochian worked because it was inherently the "language of creation" and therefore had innate magical power or simply because it was the language that angels/God speak so they would be more impressed by people making requests in it.

In a D&D game, this would mean speaking the "language of creation" (Truespeech in 3.5e, Primordial in 4e) or speaking the language of the granting powers (Celestial in 3.5e, Supernal in 4e).

A (modern) variant of the first type is the caster speaking their own language - or even making non-verbal sounds - not to entreat entities to grant the power but to reinforce their own will to make the power - so it is more of a mantra or concentration aid than for external benefit.

Naturally, different power sources in a game world could require different of these.

For example, in my 4e world I could use:

Martial Powers: No verbal required - or possibly will-reinforcing mantras or sounds (From "Ki-Yaah!" to tennis-player grunts to "One-two-three" counting out the moves of a power).

Arcane Powers: Verbal components are in Primordial, the language of Creation. The spellcaster literally recreates the world as he or she wishes.

Divine Powers: Verbal components in Supernal. The spellcaster entreats the Gods to grant the power in their own language.

Primal Powers: Verbal components in the caster's own language. The caster entreats the spirits for help.

bosssmiley
2009-07-27, 04:46 AM
On the British history side of things, there was a language that was based off of the Latin alphabet that was supposed to be used for magic. The workings of the words held power, and done right someone could be taught to cast spells.

Probably John Dee's Enochian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enochian_magic). Supposedly it was the language of angels imparted to Dee and Kelley by heavenly agency, actually it was just ripped off from a load of pre-existing mysticism.

The Golden Dawn (who included Aleister Crowley and that Celt fapper W.B.Yeats) were supposedly still using Enochian magic as part of their 'get drunk, impress dumb posh birds with brickjaws' routine in the early 20th c.

edit: ninja'ed by monkeypants above (Oh the humiliation! Oh the shame!)

MickJay
2009-07-27, 06:20 AM
The language itself is not important. What's important is the underlying understanding of the principles at work. The words are a focus, driven into the foundations of the world by repetition.

That's why a more powerful wizard can cast the same spell without saying anything at all. Silent Spell works the way it does for a reason. The words are imprinted into reality as a rote path. You can make magic happen without them, but it is more difficult and more draining upon your personal reserves (higher effective spell level).

Were the language ultimately important, then all wizards' spellbooks would look roughly the same, instead of being highly personalized affairs which must be individually interpretted in order to be utilized.

Which is very convenient and helps in roleplaying (in D&D and many other systems), but from almost every RL view on magic is complete bull***t :smallbiggrin: The way magic is represented in most of fantasy (and in almost every RPG) is probably the best argument against weirdos claiming that roleplaying magic is a lure of satan and imperils the soul and whatnot, because rpg magics is so completely different from what people actually used to believe to be true about magic. There are a few exceptions, but most RPG magic is, as bosssmiley noted, very infantile in the way it's supposed to work.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-27, 07:40 AM
There are a few exceptions, but most RPG magic is, as bosssmiley noted, very infantile in the way it's supposed to work.

I wouldn't call it "infantile" so much as "reduced to the least common denominator." You can't really include every possible myth, legend, and practice of magic in your game, so you build in the aspects shared by most systems of magic and let players add on top of that. There's this Enochian magic that uses words supposedly spoken by angels? Cool. There's this sympathetic magic that uses someone's name to control them? Great. There's this Gnostic magic that uses ritual phrases to bind demons? Fine. We'll put in "verbal components" and players can do any one of those they want.

Set
2009-07-27, 07:52 AM
I'm of a similar view to some expressed above;

In the beginning, some diefic entity spoke some words, and those words became reality. All these millenia later, the words of creation are long lost, and perhaps even unspeakable by mortal tongues in any event, but the echoes of those words still resonate within every person, place and thing, vibrating unseen within them, sustaining their existence.

Using various elder languages, believed to be 'closer to the source,' the arcanists and clergy can try to 'hack in' to the resonances of reality, altering and changing them, in some cases causing new things to form (wall of stone, summon monster II, flaming sphere), in other cases destabilizing and damaging things that already exist by 'collapsing the wave function' (inflict wounds, disintegrate), and in other cases simply 'tweaking the frequency' to alter (polymorph self), enhance (bull's strength) or weaken (slow) a person, place or thing.

No one can speak the true words of creation, but they can figuratively put their ear to the world, and listen for the echoes of that legendary event, and, like sneaky djinn 'predicting the future' by flying up into the clouds and eavesdropping on the words of the angels, the spellcaster is tapping into ancient and powerful forces that he has no business mucking with, the forces of creation itself.

Clerics do the same thing, but they have teacher's permission, so that's okay.

Sereg
2009-07-27, 09:56 AM
In my campaign setting, the first caster of a spell permanently "sets" the componants of the spell, resulting in the verbal componant of a spell being in the language of its developer. As most commonly used spells were developed by elves or dragons. Most spells have Elven or Draconic verbal componants.

Zaq
2009-07-27, 04:54 PM
I rather like the concept put forth in Complete Mage (at least I think it's Mage, might be Arcane) that the components, including verbal, are actual restraints that spellcasters place on themselves to ensure that the spells do what they want them to do, nothing more. The idea is that magic is so powerful that it's only safe or even possible for you to use it if you force it into a specific mold, partially made possible by these hampering and limiting words. Without these words (and gestures, and material doodads) to mold the magic into the desired shape, your weak mortal form simply can't handle it, and the spell can't happen. That's why it takes a higher spell level to use Still Spell or Silent Spell... more energy is surging through your system without the restraints in place.

It's not a perfect system and does conflict with some other existing fluff, but on some level I like it.

As for where the idea comes from in the first place? You'd have to look long and hard to find a real-world culture (particularly premodern, though modernity is no guarantee that this is gone) that never had some form of ritual or ceremonial chanting (or singing, or whatever). It's not a big leap, in my mind, to go from "our priests/leaders/whatever chant in this ritual" to "that chanting must be important in ways I don't really understand" to "those words must be magic" to "magic requires magic words," especially spread out over the centuries (and occurring over and over).

Set
2009-07-29, 03:32 PM
The easy, easy explanation could be that the entities that grant magical effects (whether djinn or dieties or whatever) are pleased by hearing 'the old language' spoken in entreaties for their favor. They consider it a sign of respect to be addressed in the old tongue.

Zeful
2009-07-29, 03:45 PM
I'm talking about the second part more than the first part. And more towards the how of it than the why...

I'd like to at least establish some kind of pseudoscience behind how shouting gibberish at people can make them explode. Whether this happens in D&D, Harry Potter, etc. specifically isn't relevant to me right now.

Most of that Psudoscience depends on setting. Mahou Sensei Negima's spells do not require incantations at all. But casting a spell without that focus is much harder. While in Diadem the incantations for spells were only there to teach, it's no harder to create fire by saying the incantation over willing it to happen. In The Wiz Biz, incantations were required to be spoken for anything more complex then telekinesis or magical deflection. The reason they're there? Because that's how magic works.

LibraryOgre
2009-07-29, 03:47 PM
Faux Latin?

Shuttus uppius!

arguskos
2009-07-29, 03:55 PM
Shuttus uppius!
Don't you mean, Stoppus Badguyus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html)!

LibraryOgre
2009-07-29, 05:07 PM
Don't you mean, Stoppus Badguyus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html)!


To my knowledge, TheThan isn't a bad guy, so it wouldn't work. ;-)

arguskos
2009-07-29, 05:10 PM
To my knowledge, TheThan isn't a bad guy, so it wouldn't work. ;-)
Heh, that's fair.