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View Full Version : Ninja Assassin: dumb name, cool action?



13_CBS
2009-07-27, 10:49 AM
So we have this action movie called Ninja Assassin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MtHPbuUw7Y&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eescapistmagazine%2Ecom%2Fn ews%2Fview%2F93422%2DNinja%2DAssassin%2DDumb%2DNam e%2DKickass%2DMovie&feature=player_embedded), which for me is up there with Titan Quest and others for the list of, "Lamest Titles Ever". It looks like a summer action flick (except that it's coming out in November) with lots of explosions, martial arts, and poorly written romance. It also happens to star a Korean pop-star (so...imagine seeing Lance Bass from N'SYNC starring in the next Die Hard movie :smallconfused:)

The trailer looks cool, but the weapons, particularly the throwing stuff and the chain-blades, look a little to CG.

Hmm...:smallconfused: It makes me wonder if they're just going for "CRAZY AWESOME NINJA ACTION" for this film.

pflare
2009-07-27, 02:13 PM
I think the movie could either suck or be pretty decent but my money is on suck.

BTW that is the least inventive movie title ever.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-27, 05:01 PM
I hope this is only "So Bad It's Good" and not "So Bad It's Horrible".

Icewalker
2009-07-27, 05:13 PM
BTW that is the least inventive movie title ever.

Snakes on a Plane?

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-27, 05:19 PM
Snakes on a Plane?

Superman?

Seriously, they named a movie about Superman "Superman".

The nerve!

kpenguin
2009-07-27, 05:42 PM
Its a pity that the state of pop culture is now that the title is not considered redundant.

sealemon
2009-07-27, 06:49 PM
dang it, kpenguin! You almost ninja'd me on a ninja movie thread!

Because yes, the first thing I thought was "least imaginiative, more like needlessly redundant".

Look for the folow up movies Samuri Warrior and Yakuza Gangster!

Llama231
2009-07-27, 06:59 PM
Emperor King?
Shogun General?

chiasaur11
2009-07-27, 07:11 PM
Emperor King?
Shogun General?

Manos, the hands of fate?

Wait. Been done.

Mewtarthio
2009-07-27, 08:24 PM
Its a pity that the state of pop culture is now that the title is not considered redundant.

Didn't ninjas perform non-assassination acts of espionage as well?

Innis Cabal
2009-07-27, 08:35 PM
Didn't ninjas perform non-assassination acts of espionage as well?

They did. And Samurai weren't just warriors. So neither of those are all to redundant.

13_CBS
2009-07-27, 10:00 PM
I'm under the impression that ninjas didn't really exist IRL. :smallconfused:

chiasaur11
2009-07-27, 10:05 PM
I'm under the impression that ninjas didn't really exist IRL. :smallconfused:

Looks like somebody did his job right...

Innis Cabal
2009-07-27, 10:17 PM
They did, the name ninja just wasn't used for often, nor was it popular untill the late 1940's.

Xondoure
2009-07-27, 10:25 PM
dang it, kpenguin! You almost ninja'd me on a ninja movie thread!

Because yes, the first thing I thought was "least imaginative, more like needlessly redundant".

Look for the follow up movies Samuri Warrior and Yakuza Gangster!

I'm pretty sure Samurai Warrior has been done, but it isn't redundant. To be redundant it would have to be Samurai Knight.

Also, fixed your spelling for you!

kpenguin
2009-07-27, 10:33 PM
Didn't ninjas perform non-assassination acts of espionage as well?

They also ate, drank, and were merry. What's your point?

Miyako
2009-07-27, 11:29 PM
There is nothing wrong with the title. We have Ninja Spies, Ninja Assassins, Ninja Infiltrators, Ninja Trackers, Ninja Saboteurs, Ninja Spotters, Ninja Dogs, Ninja Messeners, Kunoichi variants of the same... Ninja Masters, Ninja Grand Masters, and Ninja Shadows.

I think the title is great!

For once, it might be accurate. Consider the English movie WAR. It features Jet Li as a Rogue Assassin, getting revenge, telling girls to start a new life.

In most of the other countries it was released, we called it Rogue Assassin.

It is a more accurate title.

Since this movie is about a Ninja Assassin, what makes the title lame?

Probably Y - O - U. It just sounds funny to you, kind of like how you hear a second language speaker, and think 'Wow, this person sounds silly/lame/idiotic/different/interesting'.

What is Redundant about Samurai Knight?

A Samurai is not a Knight, so someone could both be a Samurai and a Knight. That would make for an interesting movie.

TITLE = awesome.

Action = awesome.

Racist Factor = Koreans may not be as popular with some, who favour non-Gaijin in every respect.

Ninja = Awesome.

CG Cool = Awesome.

Kiss Scene with Girl = Awful. Pick a better spot and time. Not in front of everyone! Love interests are by definition rude! (Because you are not supposed to kiss in public, Hehehehe... :smallcool:)

I will watch it.

CRAZY AWESOME NINJA ACTION! :smallfurious:

That was the whole point, wasn't it?

SlyGuyMcFly
2009-07-28, 05:09 AM
I hope this is only "So Bad It's Good" and not "So Bad It's Horrible".

This. With a bit of luck the acting will be just bad enough, and the action sufficiently over the top, to be funny

Edit: Watched the trailer. Should make for an entertaining 2 hours.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-07-28, 10:47 PM
What is Redundant about Samurai Knight?

A Samurai is not a Knight, so someone could both be a Samurai and a Knight. That would make for an interesting movie.
Because it's terribly anachronistic?

A samurai is more or less a knight anyway. A minor noble and warrior who is theoretically bound to a code of honor (bushido or chivalry) in a feudal caste system.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the word "ninja" is derived from "shinobi" through some way the characters are pronounced. And it literally just meant a person who partakes in acts of secrecy. Which could include just about anybody at one time in their life.

So no. Ninja Assassin isn't really redundant. There was no such thing as ninja clans. A samurai could be a ninja simply by spying on his enemies.

Miyako
2009-07-28, 11:29 PM
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. A little of both. A Samurai is not the same as a Knight, 'our' cultures were as far apart as can be. He is not theoretically bound -- he lives it, and his Honour defines Who He Is rather than What He Has.
Knights are Cowardly Scum who do not have the same Warrior Spirit and walk around in ugly buckets (Cultural racism at its' finest) they liked to call armour. Being a Samurai and being a Knight are two different things. Samurai were anything but Minor, they ruled Nihon for a very long time. And they would weep if I let you get away with saying that.

A Knight has no Soul.
(don't bite my head off for being racist, I admit it. I am defending Honour, and establishing a 'truth' that I suspect you would only call prejudice and narrow-mindedness because we look at things a bit differently)

Mutually Reasonable Discussion
The words Ninja and Shinobi, as far as I know, are more recent terms that people use to refer to them. They were called many different things, and the usage varied depending on who and where you were asking.

To deserve to be called Shinobi, you must live in the Shadows. It is more than partaking in acts of secrecy, it is living the Ninja Way. Not merely someone who partakes of secret acts, otherwise random losers and gangers would stain the Ninja Name. If there were Ninja 'Clans' (I suspect there were, being alone would be worse than death) they would not advertise it as much as insinuate it.
A Clan can grow or shrink based on adopted members, a Clan of Ninja could simply be a regular old clan headed by someone living as a Ninja, with a family of people they train as Ninja.

Saying there were no clans is silly.

A Samurai would never stain his Honour by doing something as Dishonourable as 'spying'. He would have to kill himself. He would never resort to trickery, deceit, misdirection, or Unfairness as perceived by the Universe. These words should not be seen as absolutes, they are kind of subjective.
A Samurai army could outnumber his foe's army, but he would never have them fighting with chain sickles, bombs, disguises...

I cannot explain as adequately as I would like to, so I cannot convince you as much as 'sound' like a stupid girl who thinks she knows everything.

If he wanted to keep watch on someone, he would do it openly. Or he would 'just be passing by', or 'admiring the scenery'. He would never try to be someone he was not, that kind of thing is beneath him. He is always Samurai -- a Kunoichi (ninja) can be anything she wants to be.

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 11:33 PM
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. A little of both. A Samurai is not the same as a Knight, 'our' cultures were as far apart as can be. He is not theoretically bound -- he lives it, and his Honour defines Who He Is rather than What He Has.
Knights are Cowardly Scum who do not have the same Warrior Spirit and walk around in ugly buckets (Cultural racism at its' finest) they liked to call armour. Being a Samurai and being a Knight are two different things. Samurai were anything but Minor, they ruled Nihon for a very long time. And they would weep if I let you get away with saying that.

A Knight has no Soul.
(don't bite my head off for being racist, I admit it. I am defending Honour, and establishing a 'truth' that I suspect you would only call prejudice and narrow-mindedness because we look at things a bit differently)

...

There really aren't words to express my reaction here. I mean, there really aren't.

I think I'll settle for "idealistic revisionist view of the past" in addition to your mea culpa cultural racism.

Miyako
2009-07-29, 01:06 AM
I would not say 'Idealistic', and I mentioned my words were not absolutes. 'Revisionist' might be fair, depending on how you view Time.

Do not play with Time insofar as altering it -- we already had to reset it once. Largely thanks to me, I think... I am not positive on that.

Regardless of how someone is really thinking, I hope we are all sensible, prudent, and Virtuous enough not to start fighting. Too much of that is happening already, and regardless of prejudices we are obligated to maintain, conflict is not the answer.

Accept it as spice, and be wise.

This is off topic, and I initially did not mention it because of that.

An example of Knight vs. Samurai:

A Samurai would not be caught dead. Capture, imprisonment, is shame and so that is why Hojojutsu developed to accomodate their needs of Honour and Dignity.

Knights were commonly captured and ransomed in battle, so they would be viewed as dirty scum unworthy of a Warrior's Name.

Samurai were forced (encouraged) into Seppuku in defeat, or they would lose their souls, their honour, and Divine Respect as ningen. It would not be uncommon to have slaughtered entire families of rival Lords (that happened in Europe, too).

Although it may not have happened so often, truly loyal vassals would kill themselves if suspicion fell on them. There is no other way to be truly certain.

Death as an appology is not a 'bad' system as much as an unacceptable and distasteful -- people cherish their lives -- and it is a genuine gesture of atonement.

Knightly armour is viewed as cowardly, because there is such little risk when plunging into combat. Be proud to die in the name of your Lord, that is Glorious!

(I disagree, I favour Ninja, who would probably realize a Samurai would know better)

AstralFire
2009-07-29, 01:10 AM
I'm not going to start hurling insults or argue over something like this. It does no good. Just remember that when you cross a line, there's only so much room mea culpa/refuge in audacity will purchase you.

Miyako
2009-07-29, 01:15 AM
Freedom of Speech, within reason, with due consideration. I believe I have accomplished both, and I will stop before I fall from that place.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-07-29, 01:17 AM
In a phrase:
This is why I despise warriors. And moreover, people who ascribe that label to themselves.

chiasaur11
2009-07-29, 01:18 AM
Freedom of Speech, within reason, with due consideration. I believe I have accomplished both, and I will stop before I fall from that place.

Means you're allowed to do it.

Doesn't mean other people can't call you when you spout BS.

Which, no offense to you as a person, that totally was.

Miyako
2009-07-29, 01:21 AM
If you say so -- I was just wary of starting undue conflict that is beyond what you as a person can see.

I am not implying that you are unintelligent or unwise, I am saying that (disregard this if you want) the universe will read this and say:

Let's start a centuries old war all over again, because of something we read on a forum.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-07-29, 01:30 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. A little of both. A Samurai is not the same as a Knight, 'our' cultures were as far apart as can be. He is not theoretically bound -- he lives it, and his Honour defines Who He Is rather than What He Has.
Knights are Cowardly Scum who do not have the same Warrior Spirit and walk around in ugly buckets (Cultural racism at its' finest) they liked to call armour. Being a Samurai and being a Knight are two different things. Samurai were anything but Minor, they ruled Nihon for a very long time. And they would weep if I let you get away with saying that.
Right, because samurai never oppressed the peasantry.

European armor was actually superior to anything produced in Japan. Most people don't credit this because they mistakenly attribute the Dark Ages with a cultural vacuum. It's a misnomer.

The fact of the matter is that Europe has better quality of iron. Japan didn't. The craftsmanship of European armor was actually quite good that some fortunate samurai used it, either because they bought it or received it as a gift. It's just that good at deflecting edged weapons.

And katanas are all about the edge.


A Knight has no Soul.
(don't bite my head off for being racist, I admit it. I am defending Honour, and establishing a 'truth' that I suspect you would only call prejudice and narrow-mindedness because we look at things a bit differently)
Are you trying deliberately to troll the topic? I find it difficult to believe that you'd openly admit to the notion that Asian people and European are different species.

Also, define "soul."


Mutually Reasonable Discussion
The words Ninja and Shinobi, as far as I know, are more recent terms that people use to refer to them. They were called many different things, and the usage varied depending on who and where you were asking.

To deserve to be called Shinobi, you must live in the Shadows. It is more than partaking in acts of secrecy, it is living the Ninja Way. Not merely someone who partakes of secret acts, otherwise random losers and gangers would stain the Ninja Name. If there were Ninja 'Clans' (I suspect there were, being alone would be worse than death) they would not advertise it as much as insinuate it.
A Clan can grow or shrink based on adopted members, a Clan of Ninja could simply be a regular old clan headed by someone living as a Ninja, with a family of people they train as Ninja.

Saying there were no clans is silly.
No. A ninja is just literally means "person of secrecy," or something to that effect. A spy. A burglar. The wife of the nobleman who passes on gossip. A samurai who tries to figure out the layout of an enemy castle.

If you steal, you're a "thief." It doesn't mean you come from a long lineage of master thieves.

It's only more recently where the notion of the Ninja, a guy in a black costume with supernatural powers of stealth came about as a fantasy. It's not like knights actually slew dragons and giants.

There are no highly trained clans of mystical assassin-spies. The Yagyu were actually samurai who were just famed for spycraft.


A Samurai would never stain his Honour by doing something as Dishonourable as 'spying'. He would have to kill himself. He would never resort to trickery, deceit, misdirection, or Unfairness as perceived by the Universe. These words should not be seen as absolutes, they are kind of subjective.
A Samurai army could outnumber his foe's army, but he would never have them fighting with chain sickles, bombs, disguises...
Uhh whatever.

Combat is by definition, about stacking the odds in your favor. Any sane general understands this. Of course, there are hidden social contracts, but that's just a way of protecting both sides.

Sort of like the Geneva Convention.


I cannot explain as adequately as I would like to, so I cannot convince you as much as 'sound' like a stupid girl who thinks she knows everything.
There's no nice way to reply to this.


If he wanted to keep watch on someone, he would do it openly. Or he would 'just be passing by', or 'admiring the scenery'. He would never try to be someone he was not, that kind of thing is beneath him. He is always Samurai -- a Kunoichi (ninja) can be anything she wants to be.
Which is still a part of spycraft. And moreover, it's still deceit. Diplomats are widely understood to be a kind of intelligence gatherer.

So puzzle this out this contradiction for me, in writing:
What constitutes dishonorable deceit?

The fact that a samurai wouldn't dress down is merely a consequence of living in a caste system. He puts a lot of worth on status.

A peasant hired to do intelligence work? Not so much.

Rutskarn
2009-07-29, 01:37 AM
From the makers of Knight Warrior, Marine Soldier, and Politician Liar, it's Ninja Assassin, voted by four cinema beat magazines to be the movie "most likely to abuse everybody's culture forever" for 2009.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-07-29, 01:41 AM
From the makers of Knight Warrior, Marine Soldier, and Politician Liar, it's Ninja Assassin, voted by four cinema beat magazines to be the movie "most likely to abuse everybody's culture forever" for 2009.
Meh. The way I understand it, Ninja, as understood by pop culture, is something of a Japanese fantasy as well. Similar to exaggerated tales of the Wild West.

Otherwise, they wouldn't have made an anime like Naruto.

Rutskarn
2009-07-29, 01:42 AM
Meh. The way I understand it, Ninja, as understood by pop culture, is something of a Japanese fantasy as well. Similar to exaggerated tales of the Wild West.

Otherwise, they wouldn't have made an anime like Naruto.

Yeah, but casually ignorant interpretations of history are like potato chips. It's just so damn hard to stop at one.

chiasaur11
2009-07-29, 01:44 AM
I myself am eagerly looking forward to "Cowboy Rancher".

LurkerInPlayground
2009-07-29, 01:51 AM
Yeah, but casually ignorant interpretations of history are like potato chips. It's just so damn hard to stop at one.
Yeah well, I'm sure D&D is guilty of that as well.

kpenguin
2009-07-29, 01:53 AM
Pbbbt... you're talking about truth. We're talking about history.

Totally different.:smalltongue:

Rutskarn
2009-07-29, 01:56 AM
Yeah well, I'm sure D&D is guilty of that as well.

Dungeons and Dragons is a fictional setting. Any resemblances to our history are incidental. This is, ostensibly, our own universe.

Not that there's no excuse for mucking about with history, of course. No movie can and few movies would be improved by staying scrupulously true to every single element of human culture. Sometimes it bugs me, sometimes it doesn't. Depends on how it's handled.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-07-29, 02:00 AM
Dungeons and Dragons is a fictional setting. Any resemblances to our history are incidental. This is, ostensibly, our own universe.
*cough* This statement applies to equally well to the hit summer action blockbuster, Ninja Assassin.

Personally, I find the image of a student fighting his master in a dark room full of floating flames to be badass.

Rutskarn
2009-07-29, 02:16 AM
*cough* This statement applies to equally well to the hit summer action blockbuster, Ninja Assassin.


Like I said: ostensibly our own universe.

It's a fine line, but it exists. Whether or not it matters is entirely a personal issue.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-07-29, 02:19 AM
Like I said: ostensibly our own universe.

It's a fine line, but it exists. Whether or not it matters is entirely a personal issue.
I fail to see the distinction you are trying to make.

You're not going off on some postmodern notion about determining truth by rewriting history are you?

averagejoe
2009-07-29, 02:34 AM
I fail to see the distinction you are trying to make.

You're not going off on some postmodern notion about determining truth by rewriting history are you?

He seems to simply be claiming that this movie (and I think this tends to be the default movie assumption) is in a world that is pretty much our own. D&D is explicitly not our own world. Movies tend to be implicitly set in our world.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-07-29, 02:44 AM
No, in review of our statements, I think it's just miscommunication.

My point is more or less that the fantasy of the clan of warrior-assassins is quite different from the actual etymology of the word "ninja." A "shinobi" can be any shmoe technically, but the ninja we're familiar with are a subset of shinobi that also happen to be mythical boogeymen.

Sort of like the difference between a globetrotting diamond thief and the man who steals your stereo. They're both "thieves." One is just more romantic. Now imagine that word being translated into another culture to merely refer to the former. Assuming that I'm not merely talking out my ass, I think this is a close approximation to the origins of the word "ninja."

My original reply to the notion that somehow Ninja Assassin corrupted our interpretation of history is to express a complete lack of interest or surprise. The Japanese themselves don't actually seem to care about anything but the entertainment value of the "Ninja" and we do this sort of thing all the time with European-themed fantasy in D&D .

Any well-adjusted person understands that this isn't an accurate reflection of history anyway.

Miyako
2009-07-29, 02:57 AM
Samurai definitely oppressed, there are plenty of stories about it, and even a few paintings depicting how Samurai slaughter whole villages for no apparent reason. Not exactly the Samurai Standard of Ethics.

Superior armour in material and practical life-saving terms, this is probably correct. In cultural thinking, it does not have the same aesthetic quality. It also lacks consideration for the Kami, it is not properly intimidating or spiritual. A good suit of armour appeased the Kami and preserves your life, western armour does not appease the Kami. I know that European armours were cared for, I do believe that more Reverence would be given to the Japanese armour in whatever form. From Jingasa, to Do-Maru, to all the other forms of armours. Any item that passes one hundred years of age gains a Soul. It is now a living being. So burning a hundred-year-old book is murder.

Europeans may not have shared that belief.

Katanas are not ALL about edge. Cutting edges are excellent, and people tell you not to, but use them for thrusts, handle-bashing, blade-flat bashing, guard jabbing, and throwing. Just like any other sword.

'Soul' is hard to define, I'd be starting my own topic. I was stating a cultural belief based on what I have experienced throughout my existence. Different Species? I did not mean it like that -- it would be impossible to have sex.
How about 'culturalist', instead of racist?
What I mean by soul... I will try, and I think you will not appreciate the effort as I would expect. The definition of who you are, your culture, what you believe. What qualities in the spiritual sense that you must fundamentally adhere to. Not things that can be changed as is preferable, but a macabre and fatalist force of absolutes. When you are exposed to a specific set of circumstances, you WILL feel and perceive in a specific manner. This cannot be helped. Other 'cultures' of people will interpret things differently because they are of that culture. You are either one of us, or you are not one of us. You are worthy of being called whatever you label yourself as, or you are not. You know how to live and appreciate life, or you do not. You understand the world for what it is, or you live in a pathetic fallacy of an existence but do not know the difference.

(Try not to use that last line to yell at me, I know it will be hard. A Samurai would have regarded a Knight as a person who did not live adequately)

We are in profound disagreement about Ninja, but I will not continue that discussion because you appear to have made up your mind. I will keep going, if that seems like a good idea to you.

Dishonourable Deceit:

I can offer thoughts, if that is what you want. They will be as genuine as I can make them. Let's try to begin this by saying... dishonourable deceit would be using your skills against someone who was clearly in no position to do anything about it, by any means. Oxymoronic, right?
Ninja vs. Ninja, fine. Ninja vs. Samurai, fine. Ninja tormenting ignorant and 'challenged' peasant = bad.

If that does not work for you, try... the ability to know when you should stop is a good use of the way of stealth. Using your abilities in such a way as to become a Doppleganger of someone else, is bad deceit. Cheating someone else of just earnings is bad deceit. Deceit for the purpose of personal gain such as offering a cheap imitation item, but claiming it is a real antique, is a bad use of the way of stealth. Using deceit to perpetrate a crime is bad.

Personal gain is not the same meaning as 'I kill you in the most efficient manner possible', kind of stealth.

Using stealth to mislead and direct, such as offering diversions, fake targets, or engaging in night attacks would be acceptable use of stealth. Using stealth to walk quietly, to remain unseen, is honourable. For a Samurai to dress up like anything other than a Samurai would be a profound insult to some aspect of his personality. He will not disgrace himself by doing that. Would swapping uniforms be acceptable, I wonder?

About Diplomats -- that is not deceit, that is not stealth. Everyone knows what a diplomat does, he makes no illusion that he is anything but a tool for his Lord.
On Samurai and Status... he does not act because of status. Consider the possibility that He believes in it, passionately.

Did I miss anything?

LurkerInPlayground
2009-07-29, 03:21 AM
Samurai definitely oppressed, there are plenty of stories about it, and even a few paintings depicting how Samurai slaughter whole villages for no apparent reason. Not exactly the Samurai Standard of Ethics.
Then they didn't Always Live The Way. In retrospect, my statement saying that they were theoretically bound to a code of honor is 100% correct.

Of course, I've heard the exact opposite of what you claim, in that bushido actually permits punishment of the lower castes for impertinence.

Put simply, that's feudalism. People in different castes get laws that treat them based on their station. A nobleman has more rights than a mere peasant.


Superior armour in material and practical life-saving terms, this is probably correct. In cultural thinking, it does not have the same aesthetic quality. It also lacks consideration for the Kami, it is not properly intimidating or spiritual. A good suit of armour appeased the Kami and preserves your life, western armour does not appease the Kami. I know that European armours were cared for, I do believe that more Reverence would be given to the Japanese armour in whatever form. From Jingasa, to Do-Maru, to all the other forms of armours. Any item that passes one hundred years of age gains a Soul. It is now a living being. So burning a hundred-year-old book is murder.

Europeans may not have shared that belief.
Supernatural mumbo jumbo sprinkled with just a bit of poetic license.

If you don't think knights venerated their culture and the valuable artifacts of it, you're not being sensible. Armor isn't cheap and it requires a lot of maintenance. Of course they took pride in it.

You can justify it as being "properly English" or "Befitting the Way" or "properly Christian" or "Befitting a Warrior" but the motive is the same. They're all just really fanciful ways to talk about how much you actually care about the tools of your profession.


Katanas are not ALL about edge. Cutting edges are excellent, and people tell you not to, but use them for thrusts, handle-bashing, blade-flat bashing, guard jabbing, and throwing. Just like any other sword.
Oh, that's all well-and-good against unarmored opponents.

I'm sure any weapon enthusiast on this forum could do a better job of enlightening you about why swords are relatively bad at piercing armor


'Soul' is hard to define, I'd be starting my own topic. I was stating a cultural belief based on what I have experienced throughout my existence. Different Species? I did not mean it like that -- it would be impossible to have sex.
How about 'culturalist', instead of racist?
What I mean by soul... I will try, and I think you will not appreciate the effort as I would expect. The definition of who you are, your culture, what you believe. What qualities in the spiritual sense that you must fundamentally adhere to. Not things that can be changed as is preferable, but a macabre and fatalist force of absolutes. When you are exposed to a specific set of circumstances, you WILL feel and perceive in a specific manner. This cannot be helped. Other 'cultures' of people will interpret things differently because they are of that culture. You are either one of us, or you are not one of us. You are worthy of being called whatever you label yourself as, or you are not. You know how to live and appreciate life, or you do not. You understand the world for what it is, or you live in a pathetic fallacy of an existence but do not know the difference.
Aside from all the contradictory gibberish, you seem to say that a soul is more or less equivalent to possessing an identity.

Or to put it simply: Why don't knights have this?


(Try not to use that last line to yell at me, I know it will be hard. A Samurai would have regarded a Knight as a person who did not live adequately)
That samurai would come across to me as a ethnocentric bumpkin and I'd be justified in thinking that he's ignorant.


We are in profound disagreement about Ninja, but I will not continue that discussion because you appear to have made up your mind. I will keep going, if that seems like a good idea to you.
This is an utterly backhanded way of saying that I'm close-minded when a more accurate assessment is that I'm skeptical and you are unable to overcome that skepticism.

Seriously, it sounds like you get too many of your ideas from anime or something.


Dishonourable Deceit:

I can offer thoughts, if that is what you want. They will be as genuine as I can make them. Let's try to begin this by saying... dishonourable deceit would be using your skills against someone who was clearly in no position to do anything about it, by any means. Oxymoronic, right?
Ninja vs. Ninja, fine. Ninja vs. Samurai, fine. Ninja tormenting ignorant and 'challenged' peasant = bad.

If that does not work for you, try... the ability to know when you should stop is a good use of the way of stealth. Using your abilities in such a way as to become a Doppleganger of someone else, is bad deceit. Cheating someone else of just earnings is bad deceit. Deceit for the purpose of personal gain such as offering a cheap imitation item, but claiming it is a real antique, is a bad use of the way of stealth. Using deceit to perpetrate a crime is bad.

Personal gain is not the same meaning as 'I kill you in the most efficient manner possible', kind of stealth.

Using stealth to mislead and direct, such as offering diversions, fake targets, or engaging in night attacks would be acceptable use of stealth. Using stealth to walk quietly, to remain unseen, is honourable. For a Samurai to dress up like anything other than a Samurai would be a profound insult to some aspect of his personality. He will not disgrace himself by doing that. Would swapping uniforms be acceptable, I wonder?
Now you're beginning to think.

So by your logic, there is no reason that spying on an enemy is dishonorable.

If he refuses to dress down from his station, then it's because he finds it distasteful for personal reasons (i.e. "honor"). Of course, most people living in the modern world would consider it to be a hopelessly outmoded tradition.


About Diplomats -- that is not deceit, that is not stealth. Everyone knows what a diplomat does, he makes no illusion that he is anything but a tool for his Lord.
Yeah, because politicians never have ulterior motives.

But putting that aside, deceit and stealth aren't the same thing.

And diplomats are very good at probing another nation, castle or whatever. They can figure out what the leadership is like, who the major personalities are, how wealthy the people are, what the governing policies are like, what the people actually think of the leaders, etc.

And diplomatic immunity generally means that you can walk around where you normally wouldn't be able to.


On Samurai and Status... he does not act because of status. Consider the possibility that He believes in it, passionately.
Right.

A person who identifies himself with a specific social role doesn't act according to it but "believes in it."

That's utter gibberish.

Rutskarn
2009-07-29, 03:41 AM
I fail to see the distinction you are trying to make.

You're not going off on some postmodern notion about determining truth by rewriting history are you?

What? No, that sounds even dumber than what I'm trying to communicate.

Point is, there's a fine distinction between creating a setting explicitly divorced from our own--different geography, completely different history, etc--and setting a story in our world and misrepresenting an element of it. Not saying the latter is necessarily bad, but it's different.

Of course, when you get right down to it, the line between them blurs, but it remains all the same.

Myatar_Panwar
2009-07-29, 03:49 AM
Miyako I am curious as to why you are "defending honour". Or think you need to. Also how you can even think we could start a war through a forum. Silly.

edit: Also who do you think would win? Game D&D 3.5, level 1, Knight vs. Samuri..... both are not very good.

Also movie looks entertaining.

TengYt
2009-07-29, 06:04 AM
ITT: Someone doesn't know that much about knights and is claiming my ancestors lacked a "soul".

On topic, this just sounds like a higher budget version of all those crappy ninja movies they made in the 80s that you can find in the bargain bins of your local thrift store. It'll probably be pretty bad, and not in a good way.

Miyako
2009-07-29, 08:27 AM
Living in the time, it makes Sense. They are not THEORETICALLY bound. They Live by their Honours, it is probably just some people interpreted it differently than others. Some thought they were better, some thought they weren't, others did not care.

Bushido does permit the punishment of lower casts, such as the right to cut down an impertinent peasant. Whether it was actually exercised, and how people perceived it, think about that.

Supernatural mumbo-jumbo. We'll talk when you're dead, maybe. I'm the resident Crazy. If a Deity appears on your doorstep, I wonder what would happen if you called them 'Supernatural Mumbo Jumbo'. It would make for an interesting movie. They'd tell me the 'Signs are in front of your face'.

They did not exclusively use swords. The first thing to remember is that you are the best weapon you have. Do not discount Martial Arts vs. Knight Wrestling/Fighting/CQC, whatever they call that. I use different terms because I was under the impression that Western exercises were about practicality and blunt fact, versus the Spiritual Enlightenment of other Martial Arts. My personal thought is that either/or work fine for Spiritual Enlightenment, it is how you use them that counts.

Next we have tactical prowess, Martial Spirit, and Technique. Tactical prowess would be 'He is wearing lots, run away, and tire him out'. It is not cowardice, it is prudence. Martial Spirit is belief in yourself and personal fighting character. Aggression and arrogance versus being timid and soft. It is also the presence (or your belief in) the spirits that guide your tradition. Technique -- how we are trained to fight opposed to 'tactics', how we use the knowledge of being trained to fight.

Example: Try to make the Knight hit himself with his own Mourning Star.

Kanabo, a bashing club carried by the fearsome Oni. Yari, a spear. Naginata, another edged weapon but do not discount the shaft part just because it has an edge. They'd be great for throwing, too. The Yumi, a bow that Samurai were trained to shoot accurately with. Guns (imported from Europe) liked by some and despised by others. Ropes (for battlefield Hojojutsu) could throw grease in anyone's hair. The landscape, rocks, traps, whatever. You could probably use all that to try supporting your thoughts about Feudalism if you wanted.

Whether a Samurai actually chose to use these methods, would determine whether they were honourable or not, I think. Dirty tricks that fall outside the impression of what is respectable for a Samurai would be the Domain of Ninja. Eggs with peppers, poisons, shrapnel to the face -- that is Ninja trickery. Whether they used them, would determine whether they had souls worthy of the temple or not. I imagine a kind Ninja would be reluctant to use the eggs, and favour something that could crush the amour. We also have possible 'Grenado' objects. Like the Pirates.

Knights in this thinking do not Have a Soul, in my experience, either because they are not the same kind of soul and thus cannot be perceived as existing... or because they are seen by Nihon-jin as being Nanban in the truest sense (Western Barbarians) and only worthy of contempt. They do not know how to live or appreciate life properly. And everyone knows that any (get ready to read this) 'really wise' person would know better than you do how you should live your life.

ON NINJA, it seems like you are equating Ninja with modern spy, or criminal. They are different because where a Spy can do whatever they want, or a criminal can evade the law, a Ninja is a Ninja.

Ninja live life according to a specific method of living, and it consumes their existence. They have philosophy and culture. I was also under the impression that Ninja was closer to 'Enduring' and less 'Being stealthy', but both meanings are one in the same.
Any idiot can be sneaky, quiet, clever; it takes a Ninja to combine all of them into a very specific, very passionate method. Add in concepts of culture, belief, having a moral compass of how to use stealth and deceit in a manner that is suitable to heaven. That should help with understanding the difference between a Ninja and your common 'Spy, or person who just uses a sneaky tactic'.

I am not certain what you mean by calling it PASSIONATE BELIEF gibberish. He can act that way because he is expected to by the law and because it is convenient for him (which seems like what you are trying to suggest). Or he can act that way because he believes passionately in his method of living life, even though it is inconvenient for him, and even if it goes against the Law.

Myatar Panwar
Fate, and your belief in it.

Second, the dice will decide. The battle's victory is largely not in the hands of either combatant.

EleventhHour
2009-07-29, 08:48 AM
...I'm going to get the 20' pole out, and take a wild poke that this thread is getting dangerously closed to that banned subject of 'religon, and religous based topics.' (That aren't D&D Dieties, of course. Because if someone takes thier belief in say, Pelor, seriously, we have a problem. :smalltongue: )

Miyako
2009-07-29, 08:57 AM
Well, Too Late, what if someone interchanged the words 'Amaterasu' and 'Iesu' with 'Pelor' and 'Random Similar goddess'. And then associated a discussion about religious happenings with D&D, and made their assertions and points with Cannonical D&D-related material such as the Forgotten Realms. Would that be talking about religion, or fiction?

So far, I think we have been pretty safe and courteous.

Also, people are free to worship whoever they want. For all I know, the Cult of Pelor really is a Religion. :smallamused:

Low-budget Ninja movies, and high-budget Ninja movies... as long as they did enough research as they made the movie to make it SEEM plausible.
I am not only talking about history and culture, but things like 'How would a SAT (Special Assault Team) approach this situation, what is the psychology of a killer, how would a martial artist try to fight this weapon, what kind of girl would kiss that psychopath Assassin in the middle of a War Zone.

The plot and characters should all make sense, no in-broad-nightfall full out battles without law enforcement involvement without impressive seemingly stealthy stuntwork. Or some kind 'illusory effect that makes it seem like what it is not, to normal eyes'.

WhiteHarness
2009-07-29, 04:40 PM
A good suit of armour appeased the Kami and preserves your life, western armour does not appease the Kami. I know that European armours were cared for, I do believe that more Reverence would be given to the Japanese armour in whatever form.
What about the European-made armours that the Japanese imported in the 16th/17th centuries for their own use after they realized that the Westerners made better armour than they did?

No less an important Japanese historical personage than Tokugawa Ieyasu himself wore an imported Italian or Portuguese cuirass (a "nanban-dou"), gorget, and cabasset--all modified to suit Japanese aesthetic taste, of course--at the battle of Sekigahara, the most important battle in Japanese history. It is today preserved at the Nikko Toshogu shrine in Tochigi, clearly an object of veneration. Not bad for an armour that Miyako thinks would not "appease the kami.":smallannoyed:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Sekigahara_armour.jpg

Seriously, from where do you derive your authority on these subjects? I'd like to see you offer some support for many of the arguments you make. Primary sources, if possible, please.

I feel compelled to ask, Miyako: Are you Japanese, or do you just suffer from a bad case of culture envy?

Noting that you translate the term "nanban" as "Western Barbarian" when the actual literal reading of the kanji that make up "nanban" translates as "Southern Barbarian," I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are not, in fact, Japanese, and simply have a mad fascination with their culture. A real Japanese wouldn't have made that mistake.

-Whiteharness, who minored in Japanese in college.

chiasaur11
2009-07-29, 05:08 PM
Miyako I am curious as to why you are "defending honour". Or think you need to. Also how you can even think we could start a war through a forum. Silly.

edit: Also who do you think would win? Game D&D 3.5, level 1, Knight vs. Samuri..... both are not very good.

Also movie looks entertaining.

CA or OA Samurai?

13_CBS
2009-07-29, 06:06 PM
Noting that you translate the term "nanban" as "Western Barbarian" when the actual literal reading of the kanji that make up "nanban" translates as "Southern Barbarian," I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are not, in fact, Japanese, and simply have a mad fascination with their culture. A real Japanese wouldn't have made that mistake.

-Whiteharness, who minored in Japanese in college.

According to jisho.org, you're...both right?:smallconfused:

南蛮 = Characters for "south" and "barbarian", but can mean...




1: (Archaism) (Derogatory) southern barbarians (formerly used by the Chinese to refer to non-ethnic Chinese to the south);
2: (Archaism) South-East Asia;
3: (Archaism) Western Europe (esp. Spain and Portugal, their South-East Asian colonies, and their goods and people arriving in Japan via the colonies); (Prefix)
4: exotic (esp. Western European or South-East Asian style);
5: (Noun) (in dance, puppetry, etc.) thrusting the right foot and right arm forward at the same time (or left foot and left arm);
6: (Noun) (Abbreviation) food prepared using chili peppers or Welsh onions


Also...could we try talking about the movie? The current conversation makes me feel like this thread's gonna get the hammer.

Miyako
2009-07-29, 06:40 PM
To answer whiteharness' question, Both. I have always considered myself Nihon-jin. I am expected to enforce the cultural character, for the sake of what is beyond the easily justifiable, making me your resident wierdo depending on who you are asking.

About this movie... it appears to focus less on mysticism, and more on human brutality, specifically asking 'What can you do if trained to this degree of skill and emotional character..?'

WhiteHarness
2009-07-29, 09:30 PM
I have always considered myself Nihon-jin.Are you ethnically Japanese, though? Or even Asian?

JaxGaret
2009-07-29, 09:44 PM
A Knight has no Soul.
(don't bite my head off for being racist, I admit it. I am defending Honour, and establishing a 'truth' that I suspect you would only call prejudice and narrow-mindedness because we look at things a bit differently)

Oh please, we all know that Japanese are the ones with no souls. South Park said so.

^^^ *HUMOR* ^^^

*ALSO, STOP FEEDING THE TROLL, LADIES AND GENTS*

Gorgondantess
2009-07-29, 10:03 PM
Oh please, we all know that Japanese are the ones with no souls. South Park said so.

^^^ *HUMOR* ^^^

*ALSO, STOP FEEDING THE TROLL, LADIES AND GENTS*

Isn't the statement "stop feeding the trolls" feeding said trolls?:smalltongue:

JaxGaret
2009-07-30, 01:20 AM
Isn't the statement "stop feeding the trolls" feeding said trolls?:smalltongue:

No.10characters

Jamin
2009-08-02, 03:08 PM
Wow humanity has reached a new low.:smallfrown:

Piedmon_Sama
2009-08-02, 07:25 PM
A Knight has no Soul.
(don't bite my head off for being racist, I admit it. I am defending Honour, and establishing a 'truth' that I suspect you would only call prejudice and narrow-mindedness because we look at things a bit differently)

I don't know why I'm bothering, but the word you're looking for is "chauvinist." There is no such thing as a "cultural racist." :smallsigh: