Alternate history, where are you?

[Killer Angel]

Inspired by this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119544)awesome thread, i was wondering...

We all know a lot of books of alternate history; turtledove is a master of them (worldwar serie, Timeline 191, Ruled Britannia, etc), but he's not alone (The man in the high castle?).

Well, it's strange that, having a genre so rich in literature, we have so few (if any) examples in fiction.
The movie with something resembling "alternate history", all involved time travel, which is not exactly the same.

Do you know some film of alternate history? Do you have an idea of why this genre is so undererstimated by hollywood?

[pita]

Watchmen :)
I don't think there's much else. Alternate history only confuses stupid people, and because of the lack of research generally in movies, smart people will assume the movie makers made a mistake. So people shy away from that, just as moviemakers do.
There's Heroes, on TV, that said that pretty much everyone in history had a superpower...

[kpenguin]

Its probably underestimated because, barring the obvious ones like "Nazis win WWII", most of the time audiences won't know everything they need to know to appreciate the alternate history without massive exposition.

Novels, of course, often have exposition to spare.

[Bouregard]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_(novel)#Film.2C_TV_or_theatrical_adapta tions


Fatherland fits the alternate timeline scenario. However if you like the scenario is up to you. Certainly interesting to watch/read.
There should be a english version somewhere ...
They aired it a while back in german TV however due to some complaints they never aired it again...

[kpenguin]

Oh, there's Kings, in which the US is a monarchy.

[Killer Angel]

Fatherland fits the alternate timeline scenario. However if you like the scenario is up to you. Certainly interesting to watch/read.


Ah, how can I forgot Fatherland? Never seen the movie with Rutger Hauer, but i've the book... a good one.
But fits the typical scenario "Nazis win WWII" (thanks kpenguing for pointing it).

"Kings" is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_(U.S._TV_series))TV serie, right?

[bosssmiley]

OP, you need to see this forum (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/).

Thank me after the three-day archive binge. :smallwink:

[Nameless]

Northern Lights. (Book and movie) :smalltongue:

[Killer Angel]

Northern Lights. (Book and movie) :smalltongue:

Northern Lights is great (i was in love with that book... didn't like too much the rest of the Dark Materials), but IMO it's not an alternate history, it's more a parallel universe, ala Lord Darcy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Darcy_(character)).

mmm... the thread could be expanded to Parallel universe...


OP, you need to see this forum (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/).


wow... this is Turtledove's wet dream! :smallbiggrin:

[Nameless]

Northern Lights is great (i was in love with that book... didn't like too much the rest of the Dark Materials), but IMO it's not an alternate history, it's more a parallel universe, ala Lord Darcy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Darcy_(character)).

mmm... the thread could be expanded to Parallel universe...


A parallel universe with an alternate universe. :smalltongue:

[doliest]

wow... this is Turtledove's wet dream! :smallbiggrin:

Ooh, I archive binged a couple of days ago, look up 'A world of laughter, A world of tears' it's a scenario in which, in 1952 Walt Disney becomes the republican candidate & wins the election; it's awesome. To give you a hint at how distoypic it can get we have-
Anita Bryant running the mouseketeers
Roy Cohn a major member of the white house staff
Senator Rockwell (Yes, the guy who started the ANP) becoming a major senator.

[comicshorse]

Still drawing a blank on movies.
On books there are some that come to mind. " SS GB" by Len Deighton ( indeed another Nazi's won WW2 book set in german occupied England)
There is also the Domination series. In these after the American War of Independence loyalist americans and Hessian mercenaries are granted land in South Africa and create an intenesely aggresive, military-based, slave owning society. This they name The Domination.
The first book "Marching through Georgia" starts in WW2 ( again) as The Domination ener the war in an attempt to carve a piece of Europ for themselves.
The following books "Under the Yoke", "The Stone Dogs" and "Drakon" follow the development of the world past WW2 and into the intense cold war between America and the Domination

[Mando Knight]

ALL HAIL BRITANNIA!

...Code Geass is supposedly based on a severely-alternate history of Earth, beginning with supernatural Geass powers and the Britons' election of a Super-King to halt the Roman invasion utterly. From there, things trundle along somewhat differently, with Washington's Rebellion being crushed, then Napoleon takes the British Isles so the Britannian Empire moves to North America, where it begins to kick ass... and takes over the world with GIANT BRITISH ROBOTS.

[doliest]

Oh right movies; well I'd suggest, 'It happened here.' It's still pretty typical in that it's portraying a Nazi-occupied Britain, but it's still alternate history.

[Killer Angel]

ALL HAIL BRITANNIA!

...Code Geass is supposedly based on a severely-alternate history of Earth, beginning with supernatural Geass powers and the Britons' election of a Super-King to halt the Roman invasion utterly. From there, things trundle along somewhat differently, with Washington's Rebellion being crushed, then Napoleon takes the British Isles so the Britannian Empire moves to North America, where it begins to kick ass... and takes over the world with GIANT BRITISH ROBOTS.


It's Leoluch of the rebellion?
I've all the first season on DVD, waiting to be seen, when i've got a little time... :smallbiggrin:

[Ichneumon]

I'm not sure whether George Orwell's Nineteen Eight-four counts as an "Alternate history", but I always thought it was never turned into a movie well enough. Same is true for V for Vendetta. Or for The Island of Dr Moreau, which isn't really an alternate history, but I've always thought it was a shame it never was turned into a "good" movie as the story has much potential, I think. It might work better as a small television series, of maybe 5-8 hours in total, maybe in 7 episodes to divide tention and exposure. ... I can always dream.

[charl]

The wikipedia article on alternate history actually has a lot of literature mentioned on it. Maybe you could start from there?

Otherwise... the Red Alert series? If I'm not mistake it actually features 4 different alternate histories, plus the main C&C series which is supposedly an alternate history take on the alternate history of Red Alert (1).

Speaking of computer games, World in Conflict also counts, and features much less silliness.

EDIT: Also, if you don't mind the risk of losing a huge part of your free time to the Internet, check out the paradox entertainment forums (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/) after action reports. Many writers there make whole worlds out of their games (that always do end up being alternate history), and the amount of historical knowledge known and referenced by the users is staggering.

[Renrik]

I hear there's plenty of alternate history in North Korean textbooks.

[kpenguin]

I hear there's plenty of alternate history in North Korean textbooks.

*rim shot*

Anyway, that's not alternate history, but historical revisionism. The difference being tha the former is admitted to be fiction and the latter is asserted as truth.

[charl]

Drop the real world politics.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, again, it's a book, but I really loved The Differential Engine by William Gibson, set in a world where the internal combustion engine and advanced electronics are never invented, and as a result, steam power and mechanical computers dominate England. Nice read.
Staying with the books, the first couple of short stories from Chamber's "The King in Yellow" are set in a strangely different USA, which really creates a very weird effect, you should definitely check them out.

Also, I really, really, REALLY recommend the Role-Playing game "Unhallowed Metropolis". 1905, a giant plague spread across all the world, and suddenly, the dead started to rise. Shocked, the inhabitants of Great Britain, on which the game focuses, were forced to leave the cities to the teeming masses of the ambulatory dead, and burn them to the ground from without, thus starting what would be known as the great Reclamation, in which the cities where slowly, over the course of about 60 years, taken back and rebuild from the smoldering ruins. But the plague also brought the wastelands, a blight spreading across the land and making all soil in it's wake uninhabitable and twisted.
The year now is 2105. Society is trapped in giant sprawling metropolisses, protected by walls and the ever watchful Deathwatch. But as the animates throw themselves against the walls from the outside, a corruption gnaws at the very hearts of the city. The number of grisly killings soars ever higher, while the law seems unable to do anything. Vampires stalk the streets at night, feeding on the blood of the living. Reckless men of science seek to create the Elixier Vitae and cure the plague, or ressurect the dead by their own sinister means. Towering edifices hide the rich and the blooded, while the poor live in unbearáble poverty, their only salvation opium or the cold kiss of the bottle.
The whole society is caught in a victorian corset, as they regard the time befrore the Plague as the golden age of Britain, while at the same time commanding most impressive technology. A brilliant blend of Dicken's London and the thrilling tales of the penny dreadful.

[JonestheSpy]

With the growing popularity of steampunk, I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of steamy alternate history made it to mainstream cinema before too long.

[Jack Squat]

Drop the real world politics.

Is it really politics if they're just stating that N.Korea does publish revisionist history? Seems like it's sticking to facts and keeping any politics out. I know Brazil was doing it at one point, as I was in quite a lengthy debate as to why the Wright Brothers were first to fly, rather than Brazil's Alberto Santos-Dumont, but that's for another thread.

So far as alternate history movies not involving time travel, there's V for Vendetta, 300, and the like.

A classic would be It's a Wonderful Life. A less-classic one would would be The Super Mario Brothers, where humans evolved from dinosaurs.

[Hawriel]

Newt Gingrich has alternat history civil war books. Lee wins Gettysburg and changes the corse of the war. Which I find totaly obserd because even if Lee did win he would have withdrawn and ran back south just like he did after Antietam. He also has WWII books about Pearl Harbor. Whether or not they are alt history I dont know.

[GenericFighter]

...The Super Mario Brothers, where humans evolved from dinosaurs.

Well if plain old screenwriter stupidity qualifies, this thread is going to get really, really big really, really fast.

[kpenguin]

So far as alternate history movies not involving time travel, there's V for Vendetta, 300, and the like.

V for Vendetta isn't alternate history. It was set in the near future at the time the graphic novel was written. Its not any more alternate history that 1984 or The Jetsons.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, again, it's a book, but I really loved The Differential Engine by William Gibson, set in a world where the internal combustion engine and advanced electronics are never invented, and as a result, steam power and mechanical computers dominate England. Nice read.
Staying with the books, the first couple of short stories from Chamber's "The King in Yellow" are set in a strangely different USA, which really creates a very weird effect, you should definitely check them out.

Also, I really, really, REALLY recommend the Role-Playing game "Unhallowed Metropolis". 1905, a giant plague spread across all the world, and suddenly, the dead started to rise. Shocked, the inhabitants of Great Britain, on which the game focuses, were forced to leave the cities to the teeming masses of the ambulatory dead, and burn them to the ground from without, thus starting what would be known as the great Reclamation, in which the cities where slowly, over the course of about 60 years, taken back and rebuild from the smoldering ruins. But the plague also brought the wastelands, a blight spreading across the land and making all soil in it's wake uninhabitable and twisted.
The year now is 2105. Society is trapped in giant sprawling metropolisses, protected by walls and the ever watchful Deathwatch. But as the animates throw themselves against the walls from the outside, a corruption gnaws at the very hearts of the city. The number of grisly killings soars ever higher, while the law seems unable to do anything. Vampires stalk the streets at night, feeding on the blood of the living. Reckless men of science seek to create the Elixier Vitae and cure the plague, or ressurect the dead by their own sinister means. Towering edifices hide the rich and the blooded, while the poor live in unbearáble poverty, their only salvation opium or the cold kiss of the bottle.
The whole society is caught in a victorian corset, as they regard the time befrore the Plague as the golden age of Britain, while at the same time commanding most impressive technology. A brilliant blend of Dicken's London and the thrilling tales of the penny dreadful.

This begs the question, where the bloody hells then does the food come from then? The City and the Farm need each other. The Farm needs a market, and the City needs the food, food it can not grow itself. A certain amount can be grown in a city. But there is only so much space, so much sunlight, and most is already used for the buildings. Even if you put gardens on every roof-top, it would still not be nearly enough. Yeah, yeah,I know the MST3K mantra, but still, it bugged me after reading that. Even Mordor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordor) had fertile areas where slaves engaged in dry land farming in volcanic soils. It just smacks me of poorly done world-building, important in such a detail-rich genre as alternate history.

[charl]

Is it really politics if they're just stating that N.Korea does publish revisionist history? Seems like it's sticking to facts and keeping any politics out. I know Brazil was doing it at one point, as I was in quite a lengthy debate as to why the Wright Brothers were first to fly, rather than Brazil's Alberto Santos-Dumont, but that's for another thread.


All countries do it. Some not as much as others, but they are all guilty.

The victor writes the history, after all.

[raitalin]

Newt Gingrich has alternat history civil war books. Lee wins Gettysburg and changes the corse of the war. Which I find totaly obserd because even if Lee did win he would have withdrawn and ran back south just like he did after Antietam. He also has WWII books about Pearl Harbor. Whether or not they are alt history I dont know.

Er, no. I'm not familiar with Gingrich's novels but the whole point of Lee's excursion into the North was to draw the Army of the Potomac out, break it, and march on Washington. Antietam was a tactical draw for Lee after his plans were discovered, why would he have continued his push after that? Not to say it would've been an auto-win for the South in the war, but it would've been difficult for Lincoln to maintain the political will to continue. The elections of '64 may have gone very different in this situation.

Anyway, I think Alt History is missing from Movies and TV because it requires knowledge of the original series to be something other than simple SciFi, and most population's, especially American's, knowledge of history is extremely shallow to non-existent outside of WWII.

[kpenguin]

If I recall correctly, in Gingrich's trilogy, the alternate outcome of Gettysburg causes a chain of events which leads to an early Northern victory. I can't tell you what that chain of events was, though. Its been a while since I've read the novels.

[Killer Angel]

The wikipedia article on alternate history actually has a lot of literature mentioned on it. Maybe you could start from there?


I was looking more for films, I know that literature is full of alternate history... and wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_history#Films) is very poor. 6 films, plus some examples not so fitting (Back to the future)



Er, no. I'm not familiar with Gingrich's novels but the whole point of Lee's excursion into the North was to draw the Army of the Potomac out, break it, and march on Washington. Antietam was a tactical draw for Lee after his plans were discovered,


I agree with Raitalin.
Also, there's a lot of material on South winning the civil war. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guns_of_the_South) involve also time travel, but it's a good example.

[Aptera]

I second a visit to AlternateHistory.com, and theres also: http://www.uchronia.net/ and sliders (sort of) on Hulu.

[Tirian]

Also, there's a lot of material on South winning the civil war.

There would have to be. Losing at Gettysburg was the end of the Confederacy's last hope, but there was a stunningly long string of failed saving throws all the way back to their secession that brought them to that point. In fact, I think we live in the only alternate universe in which the Union was preserved.

[bosssmiley]

I'm not sure whether George Orwell's Nineteen Eight-four counts as an "Alternate history", but I always thought it was never turned into a movie well enough.

Which part of the 1984 Hurt & Burton version wasn't up to snuff? :smallconfused:
(apart from the soundtrack of course)

uchronia.net (http://www.uchronia.net/) - find alt.hist books relevant to your interests

[GolemsVoice]

This begs the question, where the bloody hells then does the food come from then? The City and the Farm need each other. The Farm needs a market, and the City needs the food, food it can not grow itself. A certain amount can be grown in a city. But there is only so much space, so much sunlight, and most is already used for the buildings. Even if you put gardens on every roof-top, it would still not be nearly enough. Yeah, yeah,I know the MST3K mantra, but still, it bugged me after reading that. Even Mordor had fertile areas where slaves engaged in dry land farming in volcanic soils. It just smacks me of poorly done world-building, important in such a detail-rich genre as alternate history.

Aha! Well, there ARE areas still uninfested, and these are guarded heavily. VERY heavily. There, vegetables and livestock are kept, but of course, this is a luxury only available to the middle classes upwards.
All below eat scop, food that tastes exactly like it sounds. Applied Phlebotinum is used to extract the nutrients from human waste, and recylce them, thus creating scop. I'm pretty sure that even this would not work out, as each human takes something out of the cycle that he does not return, but it's good enough that I can shut my eyes and don't think about it too hard. Also, it's miserable and thus very fitting for the setting.

And one great thing about UnMet is it's very detailed world-building. The world and it's history feel organic from the point where it diverted from real world history, and they really made an effort to depict life in such radically different times.