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View Full Version : [Spoiler] An unfortunate truth behind Dumbledore's



Lord_Oni
2006-07-03, 04:14 PM
I hate to say it but I have been putting quite a bit of thought into the event that occured in the 5th Harry Potter book Harry Potter And The Half-Blood Prince.

Now as we all know the biggest controversy in the book is as to weather or not Albus Dumbledore is really dead or not. This is mostly due to such things as the "Blasting Avada Kedavra" that Snape used on Dumbledore , which produced an effect very much like an Expellaramus spell, or the blood that came from Dumbledores mouth. Now these things have led to huge discussions as to the truth behinf the death of DUmbledore, though after re-reading the book over the past few days a new an interesting point has come forth to my attention.

In the beginning of the book we find the wife of Lucius Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange going to Snapes residence where he and wormtail are crrently for lack of a better term hanging out. Now we know that after much begging and wheening we see Lucius's wife get Snape to agree to the casting of The Unbreakable Vow. Now we know that the vow was made over the pretenses that should Malfoy not be able to complete his task that Snape would step in and either assist Draco or do it himself.

Now thanks to Ron Weasly we know that to break the Unbreakable Vow is death on the breaker. So the logical conclusion is that seeing as how Snape is still alive Dumbledore must also be alive. Now i know some people mihgt be thinking that well, Snape might just not have madae the Vow or something of that sort but keep in mind that Snape was only answered the questions of Mrs. Malfoy and Beatrix who LOATHES Snape was actually binding him to the spell, hence we are left to get to the logical conclusion that Snape=Alive is akin to Dumbledore=Dead.

If people have thoughts on this or just think im nutteres that please reply, but as much as I want Dumbledore to return i just dont see how that is in the cards, unless he has a horcrux which i HIGHLY doubt.

Thes Hunter
2006-07-03, 04:29 PM
Ok, I don't follow your logic about if Snape is alive, then Dumbledore has to be still alive.

Since let us just say that Snape did kill Dumbledore, he would have been furfilling the Vow, since he did complete Malfory's task himself.


But I see the 6th book going in a different direction. I really think for the moment Dumbledore is dead. His picture is in the Headmasters office, although he appears to be sleeping. I think what will happen is that his painting will wake up just in time to give Harry advice, thus making Harry having to take care of the problems himself, without having Dumbledore there as a back-up to take care of the situations for Harry.

And then at the last moment near the very end of the book, when the battle seems darkest, Dumbledore will appear alive again, saving the day. This is all due to the magic bestowed on Dumbledore from his friend Fawkes, the pheonix.

That's my guess, because it keeps dramatic tension, it gives a plausible reason why Harry would have to deal with the problems without having the more powerful and knowledagable Dumbledore be there 'doing it for him', and it provides a cavalery that can swoop in and save the day during the climax of the book.

However, I do find these other ideas about Snape faking Dumbledore's death to be interesting. ;D

Lord_Oni
2006-07-03, 05:07 PM
That was a typo my bad i meant to say if Snape is alive then Dumbledore must be dead

BelkarsDagger
2006-07-03, 05:35 PM
Well, if it was a Typo, then please Modify the Original Post so people don't have to read the whole thing to understand that.

But no, I believe Dumbledore himself is forever dead, but some remnant of him (his picture, Fawkes, etc.) will somehow be important to the story.

LordOfNarf
2006-07-03, 05:53 PM
Of course, whether it matters is a moot point since Harry is not going back to Hogwarts

Vaynor
2006-07-03, 06:33 PM
Linky (http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/)

Eloco
2006-07-04, 02:28 AM
That site really scares me.....

Vaynor
2006-07-05, 02:52 PM
That site really scares me.....
Yeah, it does that to a lot of people. :P

InaVegt
2006-07-05, 06:16 PM
but it does have valid points

LordOfNarf
2006-07-05, 06:50 PM
It comes to alot of conclusions that I allready made, and the ones I didn't make are more leaps of faith and hunches than valid and factually supported theories.

Mr._Blinky
2006-07-06, 01:55 AM
Dumbledore is dead, I have no doubts about that. My questions involve Snape more. I agree that he and Dumbly planned the whole thing. But I doubt they planned a way for him to survive. My guess is that the point is to get Snape closer to Voldy, so he can back-stab him during his climatic final battle with Harry. Like shooting his wand out of his hand from behind, or something.

Gary_Howard
2006-07-06, 02:41 AM
I think he's dead, but that yes, a remnant will be important, and that Snape is working for the side of good.

I also think that Dumbledore's links with the phoenix will come into play, but that he IS essentially gone and done for.

Like the elves in Lord of the Rings, his era has passed, and a new one is coming. That's what I think we're seeing.

orcmonk89
2006-07-06, 06:31 AM
Could we be looking at a Gandalf-type thing?

Mr._Blinky
2006-07-06, 01:19 PM
Could we be looking at a Gandalf-type thing?

Oh god no. If Rowling sinks to that kind of blatant rip-off, then I stop reading the book.

Dumbledore: "I am Dumbledore the Even-Whiter-Bearded!"
Harry, Ron, & Hermione: *Groooooooannn.*

Daishi
2006-07-06, 03:19 PM
That site really scares me.....

Me too. I think it's reverse phycology on Rowlings part. First, we think he's . Then, of course since we all want him to be alive, we start thinking of all the possible ways that he could be alive. Rowling KNOWS that were speculating. But he really is , so that once he have convinced ourselves that he is alive, we find out that he's really . She's playing with our minds, I tell you!
Edit: For SOME strange reason, I got simued for saying "passed away," so if you see any blank space between words, assume that the word there is "passed away." I'm just to lazy to type "Passed away" in all the blank spaces.

Oeryn
2006-07-06, 04:29 PM
I'm just to lazy to type "Passed away" in all the blank spaces.

And yet, you typed it three times while explaining that...

;)

ElfLad
2006-07-06, 06:43 PM
It's not pining, it's passed on. This Dumbledore is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to meet its maker. This is a late Dumbledore. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. If you hadn't nailed it to the perch, it would be pushing up the daisies. It's metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bucket, he's shuffled off his mortal coil, rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible! This is an ex-Dumbledore!

Gary_Howard
2006-07-06, 09:14 PM
No, he's not! He's just resting!

Vaynor
2006-07-06, 09:30 PM
No, he's not! *He's just resting!
Yeah, "resting permanently" if you know what I mean.... ;)

Gary_Howard
2006-07-06, 10:04 PM
Yeah, "resting permanently" if you know what I mean.... ;)

(I actually do think that he's dead, but you've got to play along when the Monty Python comes out.)

LordOfNarf
2006-07-06, 11:21 PM
It's not pining, it's passed on. This Dumbledore is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to meet its maker. This is a late Dumbledore. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. If you hadn't nailed it to the perch, it would be pushing up the daisies. It's metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bucket, he's shuffled off his mortal coil, rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible! This is an ex-Dumbledore!

Atl eats until a 15th level explorer with 10,000gp in gold dust comes along

Lesol
2006-07-07, 01:37 AM
He's dead, he will leave Harry something that will help him take down Voldy. Snape will help Harry in the end and in the process of killing vold, Harry himself will die. Hermoine and Ron name their first child after Harry and everyone lives happily ever after. In the afterlife Harry will play with his parents, dumbledore, Cedric, and Sirius in a field of flowers with puppy dogs, rabits, cats, and all other forms of terrifying animals. Atleast that is my guess. I can't wait to read it! :D

Tanking_101
2006-07-07, 01:53 AM
Lesol! Shut up! You can't ruin it like that! Man I thought I was the only one that knew that stuff, except for the playing in the flowers part.

They had a funeral for Dumbledore. He has to be dead. Unless he's gonna dig himself out after waking up from the afects of the spell that got past any horocrux. however I'm really not worried about that as much as I'm worried about Harry dropping out.

Em
2006-07-07, 08:35 AM
It's not pining, it's passed on. This Dumbledore is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to meet its maker. This is a late Dumbledore. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. If you hadn't nailed it to the perch, it would be pushing up the daisies. Its metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bucket, he's shuffled off his mortal coil, rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible! This is an ex-Dumbledore!


;D ;D ;D Although the theories on that page are mainly plausible... However, "To the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure," or whatever it was he said. Dumbledore's mind is most certainly well-organised, incidentally. He agreed that Snape would kill him, and KILL HIM SNAPE DID.

Xanadu
2006-07-08, 01:46 AM
Dumbledore is dead, and any attempt to bring him back will be stupid. Can't anyone just die now a days? A nice death where they stay dead would be nice in this world of "He's dead but he's not really dead because of this."

Sorry, I just hate it when they bring people back to life all the time, where it gets to the point you expect it when everyone dies.

As well, if Harry doesn't kick the bucket at the very end, I will officially consider Harry Potter to be a failure, and I'm going to have to find Rowling and personally give her a punch in the face. Don't suck up to your readers, give them a book and if they don't like it, tough.

One final thing: I bet Neville is going to play a large part in the death of Voldy. Why? Because he is included in the prophecy that is found in OotP. Just my thoughts. . .


Can anyone tell that I have a love/hate relationship with Harry Potter?

Don Beegles
2006-07-08, 03:40 PM
Myself, I'm not quite decided on whther I want Harry to die or not. I very much like that JK has said there is a chance of his death, and I would be rather happy if she killed him because it shows that she's not just playing to the crowd, but I can't decide whether he or Dumbledore will die.

I almost want DIND to look at who is more likely to die - Voldy or Harry - but I think that would ruin teh suspense. The story could work plausibly with either of them dying, and I can't wait until the seventh book comes out so I can find out which. Personally, I want Voldemort to die, or at laest be permanently disabled or something, but I would be too upset iof Harry died in the process. His parents sacrificed themselves for him, why can't he sacxrifice himself for hte world.

Oh god, after reading that last sentence, I think I want to change 'the world' for 'his friends' because if not the story strays much too close to another, almost equally popular, story that we all know.

Steward
2006-07-08, 08:03 PM
Don't suck up to your readers, give them a book and if they don't like it, tough.

You should also tell the story the way you want to tell it. That's one of the main points of bothering to write a best-selling fiction series.

bartak_the_healer
2006-08-01, 12:07 AM
I am almost posirive that Dumbledore is dead. As for Harry i believe that he is going to die.



Oh and I hate to be picky but Dumbledore died in the 6th book not the 5th!

Durin_Deathless
2006-08-01, 01:55 AM
one problem with the expellearmus charm nonverble with avada ... spoken. The like was still green and expel. always has RED light

Tanking_101
2006-08-01, 02:03 AM
Durin's right i was thinking the exact same thing. however there may be a spell we are over looking that is a unspoken spell that perhaps levitates the target and still has a green light.

I don't know just a thought.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-08-01, 12:06 PM
Harry is a Phylactery.

Er, horcrux...that's the word she made up for it right?

Steward
2006-08-01, 03:50 PM
Harry is a Phylactery.

Er, horcrux...that's the word she made up for it right?

Yah.

Personally, I wouldn't use my worst enemy to hide my soul in. I would use his best friend.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-08-01, 04:39 PM
Yah.

Personally, I wouldn't use my worst enemy to hide my soul in. I would use his best friend.

I think he made harry into a horcrux BEFORE harry became his worse enemy.

Think about it: In order to create one you need to take a life. Harry's parents? And you need a vessel: Harry himself.

It's a bit of a stretch, but damned if it isn't a nifty reasoning to why LV hasn't been able to kill Harry yet: He's not actually TRYING, Harry just keeps getting in the way.

Holy_Knight
2006-08-01, 05:17 PM
I think he made harry into a horcrux BEFORE harry became his worse enemy.

Think about it: In order to create one you need to take a life. *Harry's parents? *And you need a vessel: Harry himself.

It's a bit of a stretch, but damned if it isn't a nifty reasoning to why LV hasn't been able to kill Harry yet: He's not actually TRYING, Harry just keeps getting in the way.
Harry might be a horcrux, but Voldemort couldn't have made him one intentionally. He was trying to kill him.

Steward
2006-08-01, 06:01 PM
I think he made harry into a horcrux BEFORE harry became his worse enemy.

Think about it: In order to create one you need to take a life. Harry's parents? And you need a vessel: Harry himself.

It's a bit of a stretch, but damned if it isn't a nifty reasoning to why LV hasn't been able to kill Harry yet: He's not actually TRYING, Harry just keeps getting in the way.

That's still a curious idea. Why even make Harry a horcrux if you don't have any attachment to him? Especially when you know that you might destroy him in the house. After all, he did nail him with an Avada Kedavra.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-08-01, 07:31 PM
That's still a curious idea. Why even make Harry a horcrux if you don't have any attachment to him? Especially when you know that you might destroy him in the house. After all, he did nail him with an Avada Kedavra.


All the talk about him getting hit with an Avada when he was a baby comes from rumors other people heard I believe, were there any witnesses?

And why if there's no personal attachement? Because then no one would suspect it. People will go around destroying things that belong to a lich to make sure they get his phylactery, but are they going to destroy the lich's old neighbor's cat muffins?

We already know she's going to kill Harry off, what better way than sacrificing himself to destroy Voldy in the process?

StGlebidiah
2006-08-01, 09:44 PM
Maybe Snape just cast a spell which sent Dumbledore off the tower, and he just fell to his death?

Alchemistmerlin
2006-08-01, 11:29 PM
Maybe Snape just cast a spell which sent Dumbledore off the tower, and he just fell to his death?


Haven't all the spells we've seen in the HP books had distinct verbal components?

Steward
2006-08-02, 01:36 AM
Haven't all the spells we've seen in the HP books had distinct verbal components?

No.

Very powerful wizards such as Snape, Dumbledore, and Hermione can cast some spells without saying anything. The only thing they really need is a wand.

ElfLad
2006-08-02, 06:00 PM
And I think Lupin once cast a spell without his wand, but I don't remember where.

Clay_Cthulhu
2006-08-26, 01:44 PM
MY belief is that Dumbledor died at snapes hands becaue he wanted to. I think he placed snape on voldemorts side as a spy.
the signed note of "RAB" was sirious's brother: Regular A Black.
Dumbledor died because opf what had been said about harry and voldemort. "Neither can live while the other survives. Dumbledor had always had to have been in the way while he was training harry. Next time voldemort attacked, dumbledor thought it was ready for the thing he had been planning.

and add ons or other stuff to my theory?

Thiel
2006-08-26, 07:45 PM
I don't know wether Dumbledore is dead or not, but I do know how to explain the blood coming from his mouth. Its actually quite simply,he fell from a tower and presumably hit the ground hard. Even if he was dead at the time the force of the impact would have burst a couple of bloodvessels in his body.

anphorus
2006-08-26, 07:53 PM
No.

Very powerful wizards such as Snape, Dumbledore, and Hermione can cast some spells without saying anything. The only thing they really need is a wand.


It doesn't even need to be a powerful Wizard. It's mentioned in the sixth book that 6th year students are expected to cast all of their spells non-verbally.


And I think Lupin once cast a spell without his wand, but I don't remember where.
Wands are used in Harry Potter as focusing devices. A wizard still has all of their powers without using a wand.

The feats that Harry performed that were idicitive of his wizard blood in the first book, the spells that Voldemort could cast as a child, as well as certain skills such as Dissaparation and Occlumency don't require a wand. Wizards use wands to focus their powers on specific tasks.

Thinking about it, magic words seem to be a way of atuning your mind to a certain spell in conjuntion with the wand.

Vaniel
2006-08-27, 11:52 AM
Could we be looking at a Gandalf-type thing?

http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/newrevelations.html

Start weeping

LordOfXoriat
2006-08-27, 12:19 PM
Even if the spell wasn't avada kevada, then dumbly still fell off the highest tower to his death.
Oh, and a large part of the book had too do with nonverbal spells. All sixth years can do them.
So I think Dumbuldore is dead and I hope that Harry kicks the bucket in the seventh book.

theswarm
2006-09-05, 12:23 AM
I do weep. Very Much. I'm sorry, but Dumbledore is dead. I seriously doubt there is any way Snape could have gotten far into Voldemorts' confidence by faking Dumbledores death. It had to be the real thing. It would also totaly undermine the tension and feeling of the end of the 6th book.
Oh, and I doubt that the last Horcrux is Harry or anything that crazy. Voldemort is too smart to do something that stupid. I agree that it will be unexpected, but I think he had them all made but one (Nagini) when he went to kill Harry. No one overthink this, please

Closet_Skeleton
2006-09-05, 11:40 AM
I too thought harry was a horcrux. This was my logic.

1. Voldemort wanted items that belonged to the four house founders.

2. The most obvious artifact that belonged to Gryffindor was his sword.

3. The sword was inside some kind of pocket dimension within (or accessable) through the Sorting Hat.

4. Voldemort therefore had no means of getting at Gryffindor's sword.

5. Harry managed to pull the sword from the hat. Dumbledore says this means he is "a true gryffindor".

6. Since he was able to draw the Gryffindor sword, Harry may be a decendant of Gryffindor.

7. Harry has parceltongue. Since this is a magical hereditary trait, it is possible that it is soul related in nature.

8. Voldemort found out that one of the Potters was a relative of Gryffindor and therefore tried to make him a Horcrux. Since Harry has part of Voldemort's soul, he can use one of his spiritual abilities.

The problem with the idea that Voldemort deliberately made Harry a horcrux is that it makes no sense for him to make the one person he needs to kill integral to his survival. However book five implies that Voldemort didn't know the text of the prophecy.

It is possible (but less likely) that Voldemort believed Neville to be the chosen one, and went after Harry to make him a Horcrux, not to stop the prophecy.

By the way, I think Dumbledore is dead. Mainly because ressurecting him would be kind of lame.

Akiosama
2006-09-05, 02:29 PM
Dumbledore had to die... *Why?

Because in fantasy and Sci-Fi, the teacher must die in order for the student to step up and follow his or her destiny - in most cases.

Why did Obi-Wan Kenobi die? *In order to force Luke to make the choice to become a Jedi and follow his destiny. *Yoda, too, I'm thinking.

Why did Gandalf die? *In order to force Frodo's decision to leave the Fellowship and follow his destiny.

Why did Vivian have to die? *In order to bring Morgaine back to the side of Avalon and make her follow her destiny.

Why did Lt. South Burning have to die? *In order to prove that Kou Uraki and the rest were ready to stand on their own and follow their destinies. Also, when you get the badguy's full plans only halfway through the series, you're bound to die before those plans are truly revealed. *("It's the badguys' plans!" *"What do they say?" *"My God! They're gonna... *BOOM*" *"Nooooo!" - That's the gist of it anyhow.) *It's a reverse Deus Ex Machina of sorts. *[For those who are wondering - MS Gundam 0083 - Stardust Memory.]

In any case, it's a pretty common theme to fantasy and sci-fi. *At the appropriate time, the hero of the story must be weaned from the mentor, and usually that method is through the death of the mentor...

So, farewell Dumbledore, you have done your duty. *Harry is (mostly) ready for what is to come in the next, and final book. *(Well, final, unless Rowling sells out... *I hope not.)

My 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

Don Beegles
2006-09-05, 04:21 PM
OK, here's something that just occured to me for you to chew on. I agree that it would be impractical for Voldemort to have made Harry a horcrux way back in the day when he killed his parents.

But what if he made Harry the horcrux later, in the Fourth Book, in the Graveyard. Think about it: he had Cedric's Death. I don't believe that it ever specifies that the death need be intentionally for the creation of the Horcrux, just that someone must die, which could be an intentional ambiguity on Rowling's part.

So Harry and Cedric show up randomly and Voldemort decides to do something that may have idly occured ot him in his disembodied state, to make his nemesis the thing that keeps him alive. After the ritual he has planned to take Harry's blood, he no longer needs him dead, and there would be no reason for anyone else to kill him because he's the good guy. I assume a ritual needs be performed, but it may just be a spell and Voldy could have cast it without saying anything.

Mind you, this is just me stretching a bit to find a way to preserve the idea that Harry is a Horcrux, for which there is some evidence. I don't think it is particularly convincing, but I don't think it can be disproved that easily. Besides, Harry's connection to Voldemort did appear to increase in teh Fifth BOok; the excuse given was that Voldemort was closer and corporeal now, but it could just as easily be that Harry contains a piece of his soul now.

Athanatos
2006-09-05, 07:40 PM
By the way, I think Dumbledore is dead. Mainly because ressurecting him would be kind of lame.

That didn't stop Rowling from writing Order of the Phoenix. Jeez, Prisoner of Azkaban had my hopes for the series pretty high, and then she just dropped the ball.

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-09-06, 02:59 PM
Ms Rowling has specifically, uncategorically stated, publically and on record, that Dumbledore is definitely dead. AND that he won't be "doing a Gandalf".

However, this does not preclude him "doing an Obi Wan"... We may yet see him turn up as an aparition, ghost, etc, etc.