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xPANCAKEx
2009-07-31, 09:25 AM
One of the biggest problems i've encountered with PBP games is player drop out early on slowing down or even killing a campaign - some last a couple of weeks, some only a couple of days, and generally grind to a halt at the first combat

would what suggestions do people have to avoid this?

if i were to GM a campaign i'd consider having all players have someone else as a reference, to vouch for their reliability (just like on your Resume/CV) - but that would create a bit of a catch 22 for new players relying GMs to fall back on trust

kemmotar
2009-07-31, 09:32 AM
I'd have to disagree with the CV idea..I've been in a few PbPs that died because half or more of the group dropped out, sometimes the DM takes a "break" for exams of whatever and never returns. I only recently found 2 games where the group was consistent (mostly) and the game didn't die.

Had those DMs asked who could vouch for me, then I would not have been able to join any game even though I wasn't at fault.

My guess is that if someone's wants to DM a PbP he could start with a 4 players, 2 backups and inform the players that he wants consistent players tha can post once every two days or so (at the very least). If a player doesn't do anything for a week without telling the DM (exams, vacation etc) they just drop him and get a backup.

Hopefully, if you have a stable core you can cycle those that drop out with backups until you have a good group.

What the DM in one game I'm playing is doing is playing the same campaign for 3 groups at the same time. That way all groups are pretty much close to each other and if parts of a group break down, characters can just be transferred from or to other groups...

kamikasei
2009-07-31, 09:32 AM
- "Reserve" players who you can cut to if someone drops early in the game. Make it known up front that you will be ruthless about dropping someone who's unexpectedly inactive for too long.

- Get something like a chat ID for all the players so that you can contact them outside of the forum.

- Encourage OOC chatter and for people to speak up if they're not sure what to do at any particular point (often, I think, lulls come about because people are waiting for someone else to speak, and it's a lot more punishing over PbP than when an RL table just look at one another for a minute before someone decides to take the initiative).

- Similarly, be up front about hiatuses/absences so that people can have their characters do something that doesn't require DM input in the meantime.

RS14
2009-07-31, 09:34 AM
One way or another, ditch initiative. Actions must be resolved in the order of posting to keep combat sane.

In the four games I've been involved in, I have left once, after giving the DM notice, seen the DM vanish without a trace once, and stepped down with notice as DM twice due to external commitments. Individual players can generally leave without killing the game.

valadil
2009-07-31, 09:39 AM
I wouldn't run a 24/7 forum game. I'd give it a schedule like any other RPG. All players would be responsible to sign on at a certain time and we'd treat the forum like a chat client.

jmbrown
2009-07-31, 09:40 AM
From a DM's point of view...

1. Provide a time limit. 24-32 hours is good. If no one posts in that time then gently guide the players forward or drop them a clue. If in combat and the character doesn't post their action in the alloted time then post their action for them.

2. Be up front and tell your players you will DMPC their characters. I noticed a lot of DM's hate this and pretty much every RPG book I've read will say "If a player doesn't show up them limit them to the background" which is BS in my opinion. Nobody just "vanishes" with no input. Tell the players in the recruitment topic that you have every right to DMPC their character in their absence and it will be based on how they roleplayed the character. If someone kicks in every door without thinking then the DM should play their character by kicking in every door without thinking.

3. Encourage OOC chat. Like someone else said if you keep players talking it will keep them interested in the game.

Still, dropouts and losing interest are all facets of PBP. If you have no more new players then get new ones. Either ask the new players to roleplay the old player's characters or find a way to fit them into the story.

kamikasei
2009-07-31, 09:43 AM
I wouldn't run a 24/7 forum game. I'd give it a schedule like any other RPG. All players would be responsible to sign on at a certain time and we'd treat the forum like a chat client.

...why wouldn't you just run a chat game then? Part of the appeal of forum games is that they're a) asynchronous and b) give you lots of time to formulate responses, descriptions, etc. You've effectively answered "how do I run a PbP?" with "you don't".

Also! I would add something that I think has been a big killer in many games I've played in (and something I often screw up myself): make the characters active. Passive characters who just wait to react to what others do are death to PbP - essentially, you want every single player to be able to post something to prod events along without having to break character to do so.

kemmotar
2009-07-31, 09:47 AM
I think success in a PbP game requires more of a strong core, if you have a group of 4-6 people and 2-3 players are consistent, they can push the game along and have fun even if the others only post occasionally.

DMPCing isn't a bad idea actually, our current DM is DMPCing 2 members of the party (who vanished as far as i know). We don't really mind, they exist in battle and that's enough...but usually it'd be better to just swap them out as soon as you can...

As for battle, tell them to pretty much post their actions, and you'll put them in initiative order. Works well and uncomplicates combat as long as the PCs can communicate properly with each other so they have a vague plan in their heads.

Urge players to have a few backup action in their posts, like if player A moves there i do this, if not I do that, or I attack the same monster A attacks.

PbP combat can be confusing sometimes so you're better off also using grid maps to help you players get a grasp of the situation.

Lost Demiurge
2009-07-31, 09:48 AM
I've run a fair amount of PbP games on rpg.net, and run into this problem a lot.

The only time I really made it work for me, was with my first try... A Suicide Squad game, where the pc's were villains in prison, who volunteered to do black ops for the US government in exchange for commuted sentences.

The way I set that up, was that I overrecruited, and left recruiting open. But there were conditions...

Each black op was set up as its own story arc. Each arc would run for two weeks or so of real time, and be open to a limited number of characters. Each arc would require at least 1-2 posts a day. Anyone with an ok'd character who was around at the time the story arc was opened could push their pc forward... Once they did that they were committed to the story arc. If they disappeared or stopped posting... Well, life went on, their characters were just in the background. And if there was a fight going on, tough. They were dead weight. But until the mission was done, no one else could join the story arc.

If you weren't in the arc you were free to roleplay in the team headquarters, or post little vignettes, but you couldn't affect events in the story arc.

Then for the first story arcs, I ran a grueling pace. Helped that I had the ability to post freely most days, back then. The first couple of arcs weeded out the lazy posters, and the folks who couldn't hack the designated pace.

It helped that we were using Mutants and Masterminds. That system lends itself to fast action... Fights can go quick, if you don't get too complicated.

And after the first couple of arcs, we had a devoted player base, who stuck with the game for nigh on a year and a half. I had a blast the whole time of it, and we got about 10 story arcs done. Probably more. Not to mention the in-between stuff...

Sure, we had some people drop out, but more stepped up to take their place. PC's came and went, some got changed as their players retired them or had them go out with a bang. It was good.

Then I tried a few other games, and none of them worked quite right. It didn't help that I got a lot busier on weekdays... That kind of killed it for me. In retrospect, the first game was really the best.

We got lucky, and got a good crew. I don't know if my approach would work again... I'm going to try something like it with a shadowrun game on the forums, soon. We'll see how it goes.

#Raptor
2009-07-31, 11:42 AM
I think there are 3 things that are necessary to stop a game from dying:

1.) A active DM. The majority of the PBP games I've played in here died by DM disappearance (about 8 in 10, I think).
Though under some circumstances (one of them being that the group is active and ready to invest into the game), a game can continue even after a DM disappearance - they got 2 options - one would be getting a new DM from the forums (only feasible for premade adventures) - the other is that one of the PC's becomes a NPC/DMPC and the player playing the PC becomes the DM. So, if we've got active players, getting a active DM is possible.

2.) A DM that is ruthless when it comes to DMPCing/Killing off inactive players (well, obviously the killing off only applys when someone has become inactive without warning his fellow players & DM in advanche). I once checked in on a game were a player that became inactive during combat suddenly got hit by a all-dissolving bacteria. I loved it. If necessary, have a small comet fall from the sky that squishes the inactive player. Durrr, such bad luck, eh?

3.) Active players. That one is easy if the DM fullifys requirement 2. Just kill the inactive ones untill you have a party only consisting of active players.

Fact is though, most games die because the DM disappears and noone is willing to put the time and effort into it to get a new DM (wich is actually quite understandable - when a game has just been running for a few pages, noone feels like he already invested much into the game, emotionally speaking) or its not a possibility because the group was playing in the DM's homebrew world/campaign.


I think the real question that you must answer when you want to know the answer to "Why do so many games die?" actually is "Why do so many DM's become inactive?".

valadil
2009-07-31, 12:03 PM
...why wouldn't you just run a chat game then? Part of the appeal of forum games is that they're a) asynchronous and b) give you lots of time to formulate responses, descriptions, etc. You've effectively answered "how do I run a PbP?" with "you don't".


Yup, I wouldn't run a PbP. I think chat is a better medium for it and if I had to run a forum game I'd pretend it was a really slow chat room.

Aedilred
2009-07-31, 01:22 PM
if i were to GM a campaign i'd consider having all players have someone else as a reference, to vouch for their reliability (just like on your Resume/CV) - but that would create a bit of a catch 22 for new players relying GMs to fall back on trust
I tried this, but I almost wish I hadn't- or at least that I hadn't suggested it. It leads to calls for the action to be moved on whenever most players are online rather than waiting for players to respond (in situations where I think it's better to wait), some players end up in charge of loads of characters, some players aren't happy with the way their characters are run in their absence (particularly when someone takes on the responsibility who hasn't been specifically asked to). Particularly irksome when a player acts for a character who isn't theirs during intra-party interaction rather than with NPCs, as it can create rifts between PCs when the players of their characters aren't even aware of it.

In general, in fact, what you end up with is a mobocracy, and the play becoming concentrated with a couple of the players, and those who aren't around/involved as much can get fed up of feeling like their characters aren't theirs any more, so they leave anyway.

It speeds up the game but I think in some ways it causes more problems than it solves.

xPANCAKEx
2009-07-31, 05:21 PM
By reference i meerly meant someone who can vouch for a candidate (ie: yes, they play/they don't drop out/they're conductive to group play/not an ass) - not necissarily someone would say "yes, he won the campaign and had a really 1337 character and made shedloads of 4chan references"

Kallisti
2009-07-31, 05:47 PM
DMPC ruthlessly. Set up guidelines in the recruitment for how often to post, and if someone doesn't post, DMPC them and move on.

The White Knight
2009-07-31, 06:18 PM
When recruiting, take more applications than you need. Weaker and unreliable players are likely to drop out before too long, and it's good to have reserves on hand without having to fire up another recruitment thread.

Always take players with the most colorful and thought-out backstories. A player who has put a lot of effort into their character's history and personality will be the most attached to their characters, and will want to play them.

Insist on a high posting rate. It's easy to get bored of a slow-paced game, and bored players WILL leave -- usually without warning.

Keep combat interesting. In PbP, a purely hack-'n-blast encounter is far worse than at the tabletop, and just doesn't cut it. When a battle can last a week or two RL time, there had better be added interest factor beyond dice rolling and declaring actions.

Encourage thoughtful interaction between the characters and with their environment (and between the characters themselves). PbP is a fantastic medium for thoughtful, colorful player input, and a game that is rich in RP and creativity will go far.

Any pause in the game is a Bad Thing. PbP gets to be part of a player's online routine, and by breaking that routine, you increase the chance they will just forget it about it and never come back. If you have to recruit for replacement players, be sure to keep the game going in the meantime.

Related to the previous suggestion, try not to have too long a pause between signup and the commencement of the game. If players have to wait a week just to find out if they've been accepted (and maybe more time after that for the game to actually begin), there is a good chance your campaign will end up stillborn. Don't even post your initial recruitment thread until you are completely ready to play fill in the blanks with characters and press the go button.