A riddle

[oxinabox]

He're a riddle i'm going to set my players:
it's on a clear box and inside is a key.
"Take me where east meets west, and above meets below, and only then shall I open."

Where must they take the box?

What are the best riddles you've ever set your players? (please bold them)

[Burley]

Make sure that, when you give riddles to your players, you have the spelling correct.
Are they supposed to take the box to where above meets below or bellow?

[Kurald Galain]

I suppose either the North Pole, or Berlin.

[oxinabox]

I suppose either the North Pole, or Berlin.
It would open at both those places yes.
But not only there.

[Kylarra]

A folded map. :smallamused:

[oxinabox]

Make sure that, when you give riddles to your players, you have the spelling correct.
Are they supposed to take the box to where above meets below or bellow?
fixed - thanks

[Lapak]

It would open at both those places yes.
But not only there.I suppose anywhere on the equator would work. Anywhere at either pole would work. At the center of a map would work.

Heck, if I was really lazy I'd try holding it up the the middle of my own waist.

[Kylarra]

Write East/West/Above/Below on top of each other on a piece of paper. :smallamused:

[Jade_Tarem]

"Take me where east meets west, and above meets below, and only then shall I open."

Where must they take the box?

The center of the world? Assuming your planet is spherical...

Edit: *Self-Scrubbed due to poor quality*

[kamikasei]

Somewhere with an "e" in the name, being the only letter common to all three words.

If this came up at a table, I would groan and roll my eyes. Letter puzzles are annoying, and a bit immersion-breaking in a game where you're not supposed to really be speaking English. This one is ambiguous (if my answer's correct), as it's not clear that it has to be "where east meets west and above and below". And if it has many possible answers, it's just irritating.

[AstralFire]

Dr. McNinja got riddles right (http://drmcninja.com/page.php?pageNum=27&issue=14).

[Sallera]

I've only ever used a riddle once; fairly simple, even tested it beforehand on my family, but the PCs couldn't figure it out and ended up just killing the sphinx and using summoned bears to set off all the symbols. >>;; Anyway, here it is, poor metre and all.

What can kill the immortal man,
Bring life to those forever dead,
Without which ye would not be ye,
And ne'er spoke of ere ye were met?

The answer being memory.

[AstralFire]

I would have said 'air', especially as immortal is often conflated with ageless or unable to die of normal causes.

[oxinabox]

I Love the Folded Map! thats awesome I would pay my players if they did that and give them bonus xp til they lvled (well currently they low lvl so it's not hard, to get hem to lvl).
Kylarra i would off er you win but you obviosly have plenty.

heres the answer:
"Take me where east meets west, and above meets below, and only then shall I open."

Thing is:
That a map of the world is a 2D represnetaion of a shere.
take it to any point an a spherical world, with a up/down

everywhere in a spherical world east meets west.
all points in the world have points east of them and all point hav epoints west of them thus east and west meet
at any altitude then the altitudes above meet the altitudes below at hthe first altiude.

Thing is:
No worlds outside of the Prime Material have clearly identifiably east and west (IIRC... maybe some layers somewhere)
And the innerplanes don't even have an above or a below (and

[Kurald Galain]

I suppose a valid answer should also be that I don't know, but my character with intelligence 20 would.

[Alleine]

@Oxinabox: I was thinking of a tornado. If memory serves, its a place where winds from opposite directions meet in several ways. Of course, this is probably a terrible location for opening and ancient/important treasure :smalltongue:

@Sallera: Dang! So close. I was thinking something along the lines of a story, mostly based on the 'Bring life to those forever dead' part.

[Zanaril]

He're a riddle i'm going to set my players:
it's on a clear box and inside is a key.
"Take me where east meets west, and above meets below, and only then shall I open."

Where must they take the box?

What are the best riddles you've ever set your players? (please bold them)

I would guess the horizon, but that's kind of tricky if you have to actually go there.

[oxinabox]

I suppose a valid answer should also be that I don't know, but my character with intelligence 20 would.

*Slap* get off my table!
Nah just joking.


i'm considering a responce to that:
"Ok so where does your character go?"
Player: "Where the box needs to be taken to, to be opened."
Me: "So your happy for me to move your character, according to the knowedge he has that you don't?"
Player: "...:smallconfused:?"
me: "well it means one more NPC for the cast..."

Sometimes even High int character can fail riddles.'
No bodioes perfect, they roll a natural one on the int check...
Some require high wisdom instead.
well they not riddle then, their more therotical situational problems

[AstralFire]

...That's why you roll? Do you make players NPCs when they roll Bluff checks and the player has all the improvisational skill of a drugged nun at a figure-skating competition?

[Forbiddenwar]

I suppose a valid answer should also be that I don't know, but my character with intelligence 20 would.

How to play this: an intellegence check gives hints, the higher the check the blantant the hint, like if he gets a 20 or higher, just tell him he needs a map

[Pharaoh's Fist]

He're a riddle i'm going to set my players:
it's on a clear box and inside is a key.
"Take me where east meets west, and above meets below, and only then shall I open."

Where must they take the box?


http://www.rollanet.org/~vbeydler/van/3dreview/journey3Dposter3.jpg

[Ninetail]

He're a riddle i'm going to set my players:
it's on a clear box and inside is a key.
"Take me where east meets west, and above meets below, and only then shall I open."

Where must they take the box?

What are the best riddles you've ever set your players? (please bold them)

...Pretty much anywhere. Assuming your world is not flat, of course. If it is, then anywhere but at the edge of the world will work. There's always an east and a west of you, and always an above and below. So the box should already be open when the characters find it.

This is a terrible riddle, because it makes the players fish for the answer you had in mind, when in actuality it has pretty much an infinite number of valid answers.

[Pie Guy]

He're a riddle i'm going to set my players:
it's on a clear box and inside is a key.
"Take me where east meets west, and above meets below, and only then shall I open."

Where must they take the box?

What are the best riddles you've ever set your players? (please bold them)

A compass.

[Lapak]

He're a riddle i'm going to set my players:
it's on a clear box and inside is a key.
"Take me where east meets west, and above meets below, and only then shall I open."

Alternate answer (Barbarian variant): "Under the head of a warhammer as I smash the box open. East, west, top, bottom; they'll all be mixed up when it's in pieces!"

[Philaenas]

I suppose a valid answer should also be that I don't know, but my character with intelligence 20 would.

This is somewhat equivalent to the dude who said his character could never answer the riddle because his character had such a low intelligence, though arguably less desirable on a gaming table... Just one of those things I guess, as you can of course easily dumb down, but not so much "smart up" :smallsmile:.

[The New Bruceski]

He're a riddle i'm going to set my players:
it's on a clear box and inside is a key.
"Take me where east meets west, and above meets below, and only then shall I open."

Where must they take the box?

What are the best riddles you've ever set your players? (please bold them)

Noon, at sea level.

[Devils_Advocate]

"Take me where east meets west, and above meets below, and only then shall I open."

Where must they take the box?
Bard: Aha! "East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet." Clearly, then, this is inscription is but nonsense meant to waste fools' time! But never fear, I believe I have the true solution to this problem. *Smashes box on ground* :smalltongue:

(In order for east and west to meet, and above and below to meet, they clearly must be locations, not directions. In that context, the words mean "everywhere east of here", "everywhere west of here", "everywhere above here", and "everywhere below here" respectively. So once you understand the implications of the phrasing, your answer quickly becomes obvious.

The center of the world is where above is below and east is west, which itself is a good riddle, but a different one.)

I prefer the "The real question is, why is there a riddle here?" subversion (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SubvertedTrope) of Only Smart People May Pass (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.OnlySmartPeopleMayPass). I'd actually be inclined to leave the box alone unless I thought I needed the key for something. It could be a trap, for all I know.

[Milskidasith]

His riddles:

I would have been extremely annoyed doing that. Not only are letter riddles very annoying, but some of yours had hardly any relation to the answer. The letter D's riddle pretty much only had the whole "three words that have both a D and an E in them" so it was a guess between the two.

The letter M isn't generally ran through a man, unless I'm missing some figure of speech; it begins a man would make more sense.

For L, it makes sense with the parallel, but the last line makes me think of constants, which are generally labeled as "c."

If your players had fun, that is all that matters. But personally, I wouldn't enjoy riddles that are limericks where the answer is "pick one of the two letters in the three words" or "figure out which hint shows the letter and which hint shows a different letter."

[Quincunx]

I Love the Folded Map! thats awesome I would pay my players if they did that and give them bonus xp til they lvled (well currently they low lvl so it's not hard, to get hem to lvl).
Kylarra i would off er you win but you obviosly have plenty.

heres the answer:
"Take me where east meets west, and above meets below, and only then shall I open."

Thing is:
That a map of the world is a 2D represnetaion of a shere.
take it to any point an a spherical world, with a up/down

everywhere in a spherical world east meets west.
all points in the world have points east of them and all point hav epoints west of them thus east and west meet
at any altitude then the altitudes above meet the altitudes below at hthe first altiude.

Thing is:
No worlds outside of the Prime Material have clearly identifiably east and west (IIRC... maybe some layers somewhere)
And the innerplanes don't even have an above or a below (and



I have to say that I like this. The answer you've provided is so broad that no matter what the players come up with, it fits into your answer somehow. Ninetail is wrong to say that infinite answers are bad, in the case of a plot point; infinite answers just mean the players don't get stuck. (And yes, Kylarra gets extra XP for classy out-of-the-box thinking.)

I would have aimed for a meridian or the edge of a geographical feature named East or West Somethingoranother, or if that wasn't available, sunrise at a western feature or sunset at an eastern one.

[AstralFire]

Ninetail is wrong to say that infinite answers are bad, in the case of a plot point; infinite answers just mean the players don't get stuck.

Usually infinite valid answers are treated as wrongs until the 'right' answer is found.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Usually infinite valid answers are treated as wrongs until the 'right' answer is found.

Er...maybe you mean when infinite sum don't converge, the theory may be considered wrong, for example in some applications of string theory.

But if a value is infinite, then that's the case and it's not wrong.

And in general, statements with a "for all" are tantamount to an infinite conjection of statements, for ex "for every integer n, there is a prime number p > n" is the same as "there is a prime number p1 > 1 and there is a prime number p2 > 2 and there is a prime number p3 > 3 ..."

As for riddles, oxinabox's riddle seems perfectly fine in that it has an infinite answer, anywhere on the globe.

It's not necessarily fine, in that it has multiple classes of answers, anywhere on the Earth, only at the north pole, on a folded map, etc.

For the game in general, you do not want your players to be able to correctly guess the wrong class of answer. That is, if they guess "north pole" when you were looking "anywhere on Earth" then you may have a problem. This is especially true if the players have to have IC knowledge they may not have, such as that the your Prime Material is the only one with a globe.

So for ex, I would suggest more clues

"Take me where east meets west,
north meets south,
between up above and down below,
between the inner and the outer,
where life meets death,
only then shall I open."

[oxinabox]

"Take me where east meets west,
north meets south,
between up above and down below,
between the inner and the outer,
where life meets death,
only then shall I open."

Wow, that would ensure thaty the answer is the Prime Matrial.

I don't think mulitiple answers is a problem.
Even multiple catagoies of answer.
As i would let anything that came through correct pass.

I like the barbarian answer.


About giving Clues:
4e DMG (IIRC) says that if a player asks to use his INT (cos his character is smarter than him) then you may offer a clue is he succeeds on a hard (20) INT check.
A Clue, not the answer.
i would give a small clue for INT 15 maybe: "It's not on this world (there off the PM)

However
If your group doesn't like puzzle then don't give them puzzles.
If you thought they would like the puzzle abnd they didn't.
let them use INT checks to solve it.
If they can't win at int checks
have an NPC come past an laugh at how they can't solve the simple puzzle,
(and off handedly tell them the answer).
assuminh your in a suitable place.

Don't leave you players bord.

[Jade_Tarem]

I would have been extremely annoyed doing that. Not only are letter riddles very annoying, but some of yours had hardly any relation to the answer. The letter D's riddle pretty much only had the whole "three words that have both a D and an E in them" so it was a guess between the two.

The letter M isn't generally ran through a man, unless I'm missing some figure of speech; it begins a man would make more sense.

For L, it makes sense with the parallel, but the last line makes me think of constants, which are generally labeled as "c."

If your players had fun, that is all that matters. But personally, I wouldn't enjoy riddles that are limericks where the answer is "pick one of the two letters in the three words" or "figure out which hint shows the letter and which hint shows a different letter."

Well, like I said, it's not top-grade material. IIRC, I came up with most of the little ones really late at night the night beforehand. It worked out ok in the end...

[Milskidasith]

Well, like I said, it's not top-grade material. IIRC, I came up with most of the little ones really late at night the night beforehand. It worked out ok in the end...

Yeah, if your group had fun, that's all that matters. I probably could have been a lot more polite and just said that I don't generally enjoy letter based riddles. :smallredface:

[Ninetail]

Ninetail is wrong to say that infinite answers are bad, in the case of a plot point; infinite answers just mean the players don't get stuck.

I'm wrong only if the GM actually accepts any and all of those infinite answers as true.

This has not been the case in most games where I've seen this develop, hence the "fishing for answers" remark. If ox intends for the players to be able to open the box anywhere, the riddle is fine, if redundant (the box should really be open already, since it's in a valid location, right?). But if he's looking for the North Pole or the center of the earth, he has a problem. (Or rather the players have a problem: their perfectly valid answers are not being accepted.)

And to a lesser extent, if he's looking for "anywhere in the world" but the players conclude "the center of the earth," he has a problem if he didn't plan for an extended sidequest to develop and isn't good at improvising.

[oxinabox]

I'm wrong only if the GM actually accepts any and all of those infinite answers as true.

This has not been the case in most games where I've seen this develop, hence the "fishing for answers" remark. If ox intends for the players to be able to open the box anywhere, the riddle is fine, if redundant (the box should really be open already, since it's in a valid location, right?). But if he's looking for the North Pole or the center of the earth, he has a problem. (Or rather the players have a problem: their perfectly valid answers are not being accepted.)

And to a lesser extent, if he's looking for "anywhere in the world" but the players conclude "the center of the earth," he has a problem if he didn't plan for an extended sidequest to develop and isn't good at improvising.

No the box isn't already open.
It will be found in sigel.
It hjas no east or west:
it has clockwise, counter clockwise.
outwards-to-inwards (=vertical clockwise)
inwards-to-outwards (=vertical counterclockwise)
and it has an infinite number of upwardses/downwardses
(for those who don't know sigle is the interior of a torus)

I could imagine the lols if the box had that riddle on it, and was in a place where it was automatically solved.
ANd noone tried to open the box, cos they thought the riddle must be done


I don't see why a GM shouldn't accept any answer to the riddle that makes sense.
'cos it';s not like there is a real magical or mechanical mechanism.
the GM can change the mechanism at will.

[Ninetail]

No the box isn't already open.
It will be found in sigel.
It hjas no east or west:
it has clockwise, counter clockwise.
outwards-to-inwards (=vertical clockwise)
inwards-to-outwards (=vertical counterclockwise)
and it has an infinite number of upwardses/downwardses
(for those who don't know sigle is the interior of a torus)


Hm... Sigil does meet the up/down portion of the rule. Are you certain that it has no pole? If there's a north in Sigil, either magnetic or geographic, then there's an east/west as well. This may very well not be the case, though, I don't remember much about Planescape.

I will caution you, though: you seem to be intending that anywhere on the Prime Material will work. But a lot of places on outer planes and demiplanes will also work. Almost all of them have an up/down and an east/west, IIRC.



I don't see why a GM shouldn't accept any answer to the riddle that makes sense.

You would think so, wouldn't you?

The problem is, a lot of GMs design a riddle to have a specific answer. And then they accept only that answer.

This becomes a problem when there are other valid answers, and a HUGE problem when there are practically infinite valid answers.

It's mostly an ego thing. The GM spent however long coming up with the riddle, he wants the "right" answer, dammit. Never mind that there are dozens of other right answers; they're wrong, because he didn't think of them.

It's lousy GMing, but it happens all the time, including in published modules.

[Xyk]

I think I will sprinkle this idea of a riddle-box into my campaign. The Artifact the players are hunting will be in an adamantine riddle-box. Off the top of my head...

Riddle me this O seeker of flame:
What's wild and free yet looks so tame?
Not unlike those of a bow, crossed for aim.
It's flight is bright, and light in name.

Editted for rhythm.

[Drider]

Hm... Sigil does meet the up/down portion of the rule. Are you certain that it has no pole? If there's a north in Sigil, either magnetic or geographic, then there's an east/west as well. This may very well not be the case, though, I don't remember much about Planescape.

I will caution you, though: you seem to be intending that anywhere on the Prime Material will work. But a lot of places on outer planes and demiplanes will also work. Almost all of them have an up/down and an east/west, IIRC.



You would think so, wouldn't you?

The problem is, a lot of GMs design a riddle to have a specific answer. And then they accept only that answer.

This becomes a problem when there are other valid answers, and a HUGE problem when there are practically infinite valid answers.

It's mostly an ego thing. The GM spent however long coming up with the riddle, he wants the "right" answer, dammit. Never mind that there are dozens of other right answers; they're wrong, because he didn't think of them.

It's lousy GMing, but it happens all the time, including in published modules.

There are also times when the GM wants it to be a specific answer, to make the whole campaign a gigantic aesop (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnAesop)
and accepting an answer to "what is the most dangerous animal?" with the players saying something like "robot bear that shoots swords ridden by shark throwing gorillaz filled with dynamite".

[oxinabox]

Hm... Sigil does meet the up/down portion of the rule. Are you certain that it has no pole? If there's a north in Sigil, either magnetic or geographic, then there's an east/west as well. This may very well not be the case, though, I don't remember much about Planescape.

I will caution you, though: you seem to be intending that anywhere on the Prime Material will work. But a lot of places on outer planes and demiplanes will also work. Almost all of them have an up/down and an east/west, IIRC.



Sigel can't have a Pole, (well maybe it could magnetic, but in fantasy, who really believes in magnetic north?)
HAe you ever looked at a doughtnut? jk.
Sigil is doughnut shaped, and you walking on the inside.
Thus it has no north, soure, east or west, these have been replaced with variose clockwises.

sigel does furful the above/below requirement.

almost none of the inner planes have an up or a down (in my variation of the setting,) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120211)
And certainly non of them have a north, west, eastr or south.

I wouldn't even promise my planes can be though of in so few as 3 dimensions.


Some of hte outer planes might.
actually i can see the outlands almost working.

However it doesn't matter wich planes work.
so long as Sigil Doesn't.
see the box has the emergancy key that deactivates part of the alarm system of a bank.
when i say alarm system, i mean forcefeild made of death.

So the PC's will have to steal the box.
but then before can get to the key they must leave the plane altogether.
Thus giving the element of risk that in the time it takes them to walk to the nearest known portal to an apropriate plane, someone might discover the key stolen.

[Skorj]

If you guess at a DM's riddle, you'll only encourage him. :smallyuk: Set the thing on fire and walk away. They'll learn eventually.

[Ninetail]

Sigil is doughnut shaped, and you walking on the inside.
Thus it has no north, soure, east or west, these have been replaced with variose clockwises.


That doesn't follow.

It's entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that there's still a north, south, east, and west. If you're at the "southmost" portion of the torus and walk counterclockwise-lengthwise, you begin by walking east (though you're swiftly going northeast, then north, then... you get the idea). As long as there's some frame of reference by which to determine north, that is.

There isn't always, but in the default setting, it's usually the case.

Of course, since it's your game, it's easy to say there's no such reference, which makes the riddle work for your purposes.



However it doesn't matter wich planes work.
so long as Sigil Doesn't.
see the box has the emergancy key that deactivates part of the alarm system of a bank.
when i say alarm system, i mean forcefeild made of death.

So the PC's will have to steal the box.
but then before can get to the key they must leave the plane altogether.
Thus giving the element of risk that in the time it takes them to walk to the nearest known portal to an apropriate plane, someone might discover the key stolen.

My question would be why such a (presumably) valuable key is "protected" by such an easily-solved riddle, but I assume you've got your reasons for that.

My instinct as a player would be to forget the box and the key and bypass the field in some other way. I tend to mistrust riddles, though.

[oxinabox]

That doesn't follow.

It's entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that there's still a north, south, east, and west. If you're at the "southmost" portion of the torus and walk counterclockwise-lengthwise, you begin by walking east (though you're swiftly going northeast, then north, then... you get the idea). As long as there's some frame of reference by which to determine north, that is.

There isn't always, but in the default setting, it's usually the case.

Of course, since it's your game, it's easy to say there's no such reference, which makes the riddle work for your purposes.

Not i don' think this is the default case.
I can imagine the insde of a torus superimosed on a grid.
it means some point in sigel would be the noth pole.
south pole, and east adn west pole , gods forsake it

But unlike the earth a totrus doesn't have a clear north.
we have a north pole becouse this point doesn't move (in original theory).
Hell how can you have a meaning ful north when you have ground directly above and bellow you.

[Skorj]

Not i don' think this is the default case.
I can imagine the insde of a torus superimosed on a grid.
it means some point in sigel would be the noth pole.
south pole, and east adn west pole , gods forsake it

But unlike the earth a totrus doesn't have a clear north.
we have a north pole becouse this point doesn't move (in original theory).
Hell how can you have a meaning ful north when you have ground directly above and bellow you.

Oddly enough, I studied toroidal coordinate systems in college (I know: what a geek :smalleek:).

North can be every bit as meaningful on a torus as a sphere. If North is along the axis through the hole, then the North "Pole" is a ring, but there's still a clear north if you're not standing there, and a North Star would work fine for finding it.

If North is in the plane of the torus, it's not different than any other North, and magnetic compases could even work.

If you have a really cool torus, where the inner circle and the outer circle have the same radius (this requires more than the usual number of diminsions, but the map is dead simple to draw), then your torus can "rotate" inside-to-outside-to-inside, and so there's no "North" in the sense of axis of rotation. Yes, I did that once (I know: what a geek :smalleek:).

Of course if you can see "the arch" (see across the hole), then that would naturally dominate all direction systems in-character.