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SirKazum
2009-07-31, 01:21 PM
Many effects in 4E have durations that effectively last for one round, but their wording is highly varied, which can lead to some amount of confusion. For example, some powers say "until the end of your next turn"; others, "until the start of your next turn"; or "until the end of the target's next turn" or finally "until the start of the target's next turn". That's 4 combinations, and IMHO that seems quite contrary to 4E's philosophy of streamlining.

So, as a house-rule, I'd propose changing every power/effect description that includes one of the four combinations above to "Duration: 1 round" (or just "Duration:1"), and implementing the following guidelines:

A) If the effect affects targets other than you (even if it can also affect you), it lasts until the end of the target's next turn;
B) If the effect affects only you, or does not have specified targets (e.g. a zone), it last until the start of your next turn.

The rationale? For things that affect targets, they follow the lead of "save ends" effects, which stop at the end of the target's turn (if the save is made), and the target has to act for one turn under the effect in question. For other sorts of effects, ending at the start of "your" turn means "you" have to use your first action to refresh it if you want to keep acting under the power's effect (for an at-will power, for example). And overall, I think it's easier and quicker to have a guideline that applies to every situation than having to lay out in each power's description exactly when it ends.

Thoughts? Does this screw with balance somehow? Is there a better rationale for keeping the current, more convoluted rules?

Artanis
2009-07-31, 01:23 PM
So you're getting rid of clearly-worded durations in favor of one with three long-winded possibilities that winds up having pretty much the same end effect anyways? Seems kinda counterproductive to me.

Gralamin
2009-07-31, 01:39 PM
Many effects in 4E have durations that effectively last for one round, but their wording is highly varied, which can lead to some amount of confusion. For example, some powers say "until the end of your next turn"; others, "until the start of your next turn"; or "until the end of the target's next turn" or finally "until the start of the target's next turn". That's 4 combinations, and IMHO that seems quite contrary to 4E's philosophy of streamlining.

So, as a house-rule, I'd propose changing every power/effect description that includes one of the four combinations above to "Duration: 1 round" (or just "Duration:1"), and implementing the following guidelines:

A) If the effect affects targets other than you (even if it can also affect you), it lasts until the end of the target's next turn;
B) If the effect affects only you, or does not have specified targets (e.g. a zone), it last until the start of your next turn.

The rationale? For things that affect targets, they follow the lead of "save ends" effects, which stop at the end of the target's turn (if the save is made), and the target has to act for one turn under the effect in question. For other sorts of effects, ending at the start of "your" turn means "you" have to use your first action to refresh it if you want to keep acting under the power's effect (for an at-will power, for example). And overall, I think it's easier and quicker to have a guideline that applies to every situation than having to lay out in each power's description exactly when it ends.

Thoughts? Does this screw with balance somehow? Is there a better rationale for keeping the current, more convoluted rules?

Your attempt at changing them seems more convoluted to me. Instead of reading exactly what the clearly spelled out duration is, I have to remember the effects of powers based on who they target, and which ones end on mine, and which ones end on theirs.

In addition, your changes make a lot of powers weaker, since they effect a specific target, giving it a condition, and then last until the end of your next turn.

Grynning
2009-07-31, 01:52 PM
There is a key difference between effects that end at the start or end of the target's next turn; if you change the durations as you suggest you could throw the balance of certain powers out of whack.
Personally I see no problem with 4th ed's choice of wording for most effects. There are specific examples which could use fixing, but a blanket houserule like this isn't needed imo.

jmbrown
2009-07-31, 02:14 PM
Without mirroring everyone else, there's a reason for the durations.

Until the end of your next turn: These powers usually give you bonuses or a special ability.

Until the start of your next turn/target's next turn: Most immediate actions/interrupts carry this duration. They're supposed to give you a boost right now while you're unable to act and go away before you can act.

Until the end of your target's next turn: Ongoing damage always applies at the start of your turn and saving throws are always made at the end of your turn. If an affect slows and poisons someone then it will carry this tag because otherwise the slow and poison won't ever affect the character because it disappears before they can act.

It's pretty simple and intuitive IMO. I've never had combat slow down as I've tried to deliberate whether or not an effect ends now.

erikun
2009-07-31, 02:25 PM
You're completely shooting Leaders in the foot, as all their "grant all allies a bonus until end of your next turn" are rendered worthless. The first time an ally uses the bonus, it turns off for everybody.

Wierdness with Marks. With current 4E rules, a marked target stays marked until the Defender's next turn. With your working, the mark falls off at the end of an opponent's turn - meaning they can OA or move afterwards with no fear or counterattacks.

Most of the "At the start of the target's next turn" effects are zones, affecting targets that are within the zone. It wouldn't make much since for someone standing in an inferno to just walk out unscathed, simply because they didn't end their turn inside.

Any other "until the start of their next turn" affects are usually penalities incurrect on their turn - you'll be effective penalizing them twice.


Honestly, it sounds like a confusing change that creates situations which are ambugious and nonsensual. I really wouldn't want to play under such rules - especially when I have to read a power, re-read it into "one round" terms, then translate that into odd definitions to see if it still works as written.

Ninetail
2009-07-31, 02:30 PM
More convoluted? Your fix is more convoluted than the current rules.

The current rules offer four very clear possibilities. It's impossible to misinterpret when a duration ends.

Your proposal offers three distinct possibilities that are disguised as one, and requires a couple of paragraphs of "guidelines" for interpreting them, which are not always clear and therefore are subject to misinterpretation. It also screws with the duration of powers in ways that may upset balance.

There are reasons for many powers to have the duration they do.

Frankly, this is just a bad idea. It simplifies nothing. (Fewer words on the power card or character sheet is not indicative of greater simplicity.) It invites misunderstandings, possibly ones that will halt the game while the rule is discussed.

Kurald Galain
2009-07-31, 02:36 PM
For example, some powers say "until the end of your next turn"; others, "until the start of your next turn"; or "until the end of the target's next turn" or finally "until the start of the target's next turn". That's 4 combinations, and IMHO that seems quite contrary to 4E's philosophy of streamlining.
Yes. That is most likely caused by having multiple people write parts of the rule book, and being rushed by Hasbro management.

But usually, powers that start during your turn last until the end of your next turn; whereas powers that start during your victim's turn last until the end of the victim's next turn. For instance, if you use Grasping Shadows, enemies that you hit are slowed until the end of your next turn; whereas enemies that walk (or are pushed) into the zone are slowed until the end of their next turn.

I don't recall any conditions lasting until the start of anything (although I'm sure there are some; unsurprisingly I don't know all of the thousand-odd powers by heart), although a rare few last until the end of (your/the monster's) current turn.

Alex Star
2009-07-31, 02:44 PM
Thoughts? Does this screw with balance somehow? Is there a better rationale for keeping the current, more convoluted rules?

This absolutely screws with the balance. :) I have a Level 12 Cosmic Sorcerer/Essence Mage (now 13!)

For example the Level 11 Paragon Class ability (+4 to attack rolls when you spend an action point) of the Essence Mage(Arcane Power) lasts until the Start of Your Next Turn. If it lasted until the End of your Next Turn it would then effectively last for twice as long. Thus making it twice as powerful. (Trust me my DM was moaning about how fast the critters were dying when I had a +23 to attack for 1 Round, let alone if I'd had it for 2 full rounds)

erikun
2009-07-31, 02:48 PM
I don't recall any conditions lasting until the start of anything (although I'm sure there are some; unsurprisingly I don't know all of the thousand-odd powers by heart), although a rare few last until the end of (your/the monster's) current turn.
The Warlock's Eyebite makes you invisible (to the one opponent) until the start of your next turn - presumably to avoid handing out free CA with an at-will. I can't think of anything else that does, though.

Artanis
2009-07-31, 02:52 PM
There's some more, but I can't remember exactly what they are off the top of my head.

One big difference between start of your next turn and end of your next turn is delaying actions, especially for leaders. Something that ends at EoNT can have its effect extended a little by delaying until after some buddies in the order, thus getting more out of it. Start of next turn, not so much.

Edit: Nothing to see here, move along.

Gralamin
2009-07-31, 02:57 PM
There's some more, but I can't remember exactly what they are off the top of my head.

One big difference between start of your next turn and end of your next turn is delaying actions, especially for leaders. Something that ends at EoNT can have its effect extended a little by delaying until after some buddies in the order, thus getting more out of it. Start of next turn, not so much.

Except it can't.


End Beneficial Effects when you delay: At the moment you delay, end effects that last until the end of your turn and that are beneficial to you or your allies.

Also note, that you cannot sustain a power if you delay.

Artanis
2009-07-31, 03:38 PM
Oh. Hadn't noticed that. :smallredface:

Asbestos
2009-07-31, 07:42 PM
Yes. That is most likely caused by having multiple people write parts of the rule book, and being rushed by Hasbro management.


Shenanigans, pretty much for the reasons everyone else have given. The current way 1) Is pretty balanced and 2) Is easy to understand.

Grynning
2009-07-31, 08:44 PM
Yes. That is most likely caused by having multiple people write parts of the rule book, and being rushed by Hasbro management.


I agree with Asbestos. While you can certainly blame a lot problems with 4th ed design on these factors, effect duration is not one of them. The mechanic as is works quite well.

To contribute something constructive to the discussion, if you're having difficulty keeping track of effects on a creature, our group has come up with a neat little way of doing it that works quite well. We have a box of the little tiny multicolored rubber bands people use for hairstyling, and they hang nicely on miniatures. Whenever a status effect goes up, hang a band. At the beginning and end of each turn, check the bands. It's pretty easy to remember what color is which effect, and add and remove them as needed. Granted, for one round effects this may be a bit much, but as long as some combat rounds can go, it couldn't hurt.

SirKazum
2009-08-01, 10:54 AM
I was just trying to simplify things, because under current rules, if you're under some condition, you have to remember who affected you with that condition and why (i.e. with which power). Under my rules, you'd end them at the end of your turn and be done with it. Also, I don't know how "if there's a target, it ends at the end of their next turn, otherwise at the start of your next turn" turns out to be 3 possibilities (or hard to figure out which one applies at any given moment), but maybe my math is just off :smalltongue: Not to mention examples such as the ones given by Alex Star and erikun are the exact opposite of what I posted; I'm actually tying to make sure everyone gets affected by a 1-round effect during one turn of action, no less, no more. I just seem to think learning a quick, 2-3 line description that can be learned in like 30 seconds is simpler than having to keep track of who is doing what to whom in the middle of a combat, but maybe I'm just weird :smallwink:

But nevermind. Forget the whole thing. I can see how the powers were designed to work exactly how they were written, so just nevermind. I guess trying to make 4E streamlined or simple to use is a fruitless effort (not to mention I've yet to see a more rigid system, or one that discourages "straying from the path" more than 4E). But that's another rant for another day...

Artanis
2009-08-01, 11:14 AM
But your system doesn't change how much you have to keep track of. Just switch the wording on the power durations, and there ya go: same end effect, identical amount of bookkeeping.

You haven't streamlined anything. All you've done is create an unnecessary rule to do what the powers already do anyways.

Meek
2009-08-01, 11:15 AM
I guess trying to make 4E streamlined or simple to use is a fruitless effort (not to mention I've yet to see a more rigid system, or one that discourages "straying from the path" more than 4E). But that's another rant for another day...

I sense some hurt from an area which the rays of the sun cannot reach.

That's precisely the worst attitude you can possibly have when applying house rules and trying to tailor a game to suit you, and also a really terrible way in general to end a thread where people were just trying to give you feedback.