Team Solar/Dead-Gone competition

[Kallisti]

All right, here we are. For anyone who stumbles across this thread and is curious, this is a thread for a kind of friendly competition between douglas and I, moved to a new thread to avoid cluttering up the thread for Gods Among Men. He has a party of very heavily power-gamed level 18 characters, and we've been wondering how they'd do in a fight against Dead/Gone (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=141836), my level thirty gestalt character for Gods Among Men (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6622374#post6622374)

[Douglas]

For any spectators, the power gamed level 18 party is fully statted out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794). Level 18, 32 point buy, non gestalt, 6 optimized LA +0 party members plus a standard Monster Manual Solar customized only by one domain, spells prepared, and a little equipment drawn from the six normal characters' Wealth By Level.

Dead/Gone, already linked, is level 30, 40 point buy, gestalt, free epic destiny, double WBL, with some seriously powerful epic homebrew.

Let's see, last reply was...


With my damage output? Yes, yes I do...
I admit that your triggered contingency would be faster than my free action, but I use my free action when I reduce you to negative HP at all, not when you die, before the death pact.
When a single attack brings someone from positive hp to below -10, there is no point at which the character is at negative hp and not dead. Unless your damage per hit is extremely small or you can somehow calibrate it precisely in the middle of an enormous sequence of attacks, you are very unlikely to hit the -1 to -9 range where you would have a chance to use your free action before the contingency triggers.

Also, you haven't commented about what you'd do if your target moves or teleports out of your reach partway through your attack routine.


Or, even if not, there's still Abyssal Carnage. The soul of anyone I kill in my rage is cast down into the Abyss, automatically, with no action on my part required, to serve me forever (or until wish/miracled back, then resurrected.)
Abyssal Carnage requires its own special full round action to use. It is neither an automatic buff to every attack you make (or rather, the part that's relevant here isn't) nor compatible with an ordinary full attack or any strike maneuver, and if you do use it you only get a single attack against each target and that attack has to be the killing blow for the special effect to trigger. Also, it can be reversed by Miracle, which I have.


I think you might have me there with the Ranged Blade, though... Ray Deflection? Obnoxious... The wording of the ability says, "be it an incredible extension of your weapon or countless projectile weapons..." so theoretically it could just be increases reach...
That's just fluff text, though. The rules mechanics part of it is "Attacks made with your blade can either be a normal melee attack or a ranged attack, with a range increment of 30 feet." It's either melee attacks with your normal reach or ranged attacks with 30' range increment.


As for White Raven Charge, ouch. That would really, really hurt. Unless...

Poof! No longer present... land speed to teleport: 285 feet, or 300 on a downward slope (boots of skating are awesome!!)
How many times can you do that per round?


Same here, so no worries. This is interesting and, weirdly enough, a relief, because it proves I can unload the big guns and still have stuff out there that can challenge me. I'd been working frm the assumption I'd have to rein myself in, even after I'd nerfed my character... Still, we're cluttering up this thread, and Regord has asked we keep this kind of thing to a minimum. You know what? I'll head on over to friendly banter and start us our very own thread... Unless that's against the rules for Friendly Banter, to start a thread specifically for conversation mostly between two people, I'll have to check...
I'm pretty sure you actually will have to hold back quite a bit if you don't want to dominate over all the other PCs, as my impression from looking at everybody else's sheets was that no one else could challenge either of us.

I'll tell the DM I don't mind if he uses my party as NPCs, though.:smallwink:

[Kallisti]

Let's see, last reply was...


When a single attack brings someone from positive hp to below -10, there is no point at which the character is at negative hp and not dead. Unless your damage per hit is extremely small or you can somehow calibrate it precisely in the middle of an enormous sequence of attacks, you are very unlikely to hit the -1 to -9 range where you would have a chance to use your free action before the contingency triggers.

Also, you haven't commented about what you'd do if your target moves or teleports out of your reach partway through your attack routine.


Abyssal Carnage requires its own special full round action to use. It is neither an automatic buff to every attack you make nor compatible with an ordinary full attack or any strike maneuver, and if you do use it you only get a single attack against each target and that attack has to be the killing blow for the special effect to trigger. Also, it can be reversed by Miracle, which I have.


That's just fluff text, though. The rules mechanics part of it is "Attacks made with your blade can either be a normal melee attack or a ranged attack, with a range increment of 30 feet." It's either melee attacks with your normal reach or ranged attacks with 30' range increment.


How many times can you do that per round?


I'm pretty sure you actually will have to hold back quite a bit if you don't want to dominate over all the other PCs, as my impression from looking at everybody else's sheets was that no one else could challenge either of us.

I'll tell the DM I don't mind if he uses my party as NPCs, though.:smallwink:

OK, so I kill you outright and trigger your death pact. I'll just have to kill you again...
If my target tries to leave, Mirrored Pursuit or Stalking Shadow to follow him. Sure, I can only go a thousand feet...
Just re-read Abyssal Carnage... you're right, it is only on the special attacks... so you'd get your resurrection...
I can ranged blade whenever I feel like it, but you're right, it is just fluff, and RAW your Ray Deflection makes you immune unless I feel like giving up Wraithstrike...
Bear in mind that all of this is not my character's regular attack routine, this is him doing his absolute worst, and I'm burning some limited-use powers, too...
Yeah, I kind of assumed I'd be holding back somewhat. Don't feel too sorry for the others, though... Robert Frost's guy is basically looking at everyone and singing, "Anything you can do, squids can do better, squids can do anything better than you!" He's an illithid factotum/illithid savant who steals class features, abilities, epic destinies, feats, etc. Lorolar found a loophole that lets her get +a hundred and twenty something AC and attack, Kobold Bard's DC's are unholy, and Night Surgeon has a freakin' awesome flying city mech to ride around in. My guy is good, no mistake, but same with everyone else.

I really hope that Regord takes you up on Team Solar as NPC's. They could, with very little improvement, give the entire evil half of the group a run for our money, and they actually have flavor, which is very nice. Despite all of this rules discussion and munchkinry, I am actually a roleplayer. If I didn't like the flavor of this guy, I wouldn't play him...
EDIT: Also, I ask that you go back to the Gods Among Men thread and spoiler your half of our previous posts, because it really wasn't fair to clutter up the thread for everyone, and that would help. If I missed one, just tell me...

[Douglas]

Neither Mirrored Pursuit nor Stalking Shadow work when your opponent leaves by teleporting, which I can manage during your turn without a readied action.

If he takes me up on it, gives them Epic Spellcasting, and asks me for advice there, things might get a tad more difficult for you.:smallbiggrin: I wouldn't even be doing anything super cheesy with it, too.

Sure, I'll go back and add spoilers now.

[Kallisti]

All right then, you'd escape. I've already conceded this would be... a challenge for me. A big challenge. Of course, in actual PvP, I wouldn't just duke it out. I'd unload on your incantatrix, fleeing to heal up if necessary, until I finished him off. He's an important part of your buffing, yes? Thing is, I can poof down to the Abyss and heal up pretty quickly, since one swift action restores all of my maneuvers... But even so, it would be hard. Very hard...

[Kallisti]

Neither Mirrored Pursuit nor Stalking Shadow work when your opponent leaves by teleporting, which I can manage during your turn without a readied action.

If he takes me up on it, gives them Epic Spellcasting, and asks me for advice there, things might get a tad more difficult for you.:smallbiggrin: I wouldn't even be doing anything super cheesy with it, too.

Sure, I'll go back and add spoilers now.

Wait, your guys with epic spellcasting?! *Shudders...*

[Douglas]

Can you do that teleport counter more than once per round? If not, it won't actually be enough to get you out of danger. However much of the party acts before your initiative will just charge you again, and I think that stands a good chance of knocking you down to Diehard range even without War Master's Charge, and that means no full round actions.


Wait, your guys with epic spellcasting?! *Shudders...*
I'd only use one seed. Care to guess which one and how I'd use it?

[Kallisti]

I can't use the actual counter more than once per round per body, but each of my Schism friends can ready an action to use Greater Teleport or Plane Shift, both of which I have at will... Get me down to Diehard range, I'll just Plane Shift out and heal up. I can heal myself by 60 per round per body, or I can just use Strike of Righteous Vitality to get 150 points of healing... per body... and I can throw in the effects of two other strikes. Strike of Perfect Clarity and one other, yet to be decided on...

[Douglas]

What's the manifester level on that Schism? It's not part of my standard buff set, but I can think of a way to deal with that.

[Kallisti]

Schism's manifester level is only like 15.

[Douglas]

Yeah, that would be gone easily. Then again, I think after the first time I'd just go for preventing teleportation. I can think of a way to do it that would affect you but not me, not allow a save, not require an attack roll, and beat your SR.

No guesses for my epic spell?

[Kallisti]

I'm not sure I want to know. My guess, though, is the Kill seed, with a really, really, really high DC and a casting time long enough to bring the DC down way low... I know that's not it, but still...

Also,
Yeah, that would be gone easily. Then again, I think after the first time I'd just go for preventing teleportation. I can think of a way to do it that would affect you but not me, not allow a save, not require an attack roll, and beat your SR.


You just found my Achilles heel and the reason I feel perfectly justified doing all this broken stuff! One good dispel magic, and there go all my buffs, and I just have to run away and wait for them to come back...

[Douglas]

As if I'd rely on a seed that can be defeated by a mere 4th level spell, or be so uncreative. Guess again.

[Kallisti]

Fortify, then. A super-buff.

Full disclosure: My epic-level handbook is on loan, so I'm working from my muddled memories of the epic magic rules.

[Douglas]

Nope. Non epic magic does a good enough job of buffing, as I have already demonstrated quite thoroughly. Ward.

The epic rules are available in the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/). The Epic Spellcasting rules specifically are here (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm).

[Kallisti]

Ah. if I'd had my book with me, Id've guessed Ward instead of Fortify, but I was close. I knew it was going to be a survival buff...

[Douglas]

Oh, it's a lot more than that. There's a level 50 gestalt arena game I made a character for once. Due to the house rules of that arena, pre-mitigation epic spell DCs for my spells could not be higher than 122 and no more than 61 of that could be mitigated. Thus, I had to split this particular idea into three epic spells. Here they are:

Cheese Negation I
Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 61
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Range: Personal
Effect: 100' radius spherical emanation centered on caster
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 549,000 gp; 11 days; 21600 XP (paid by Rod of Excellent Magic) +360
Seed: Ward (DC 14). Factors: Change Target to Area (+10 DC), 20' radius (+2 DC), Increase Area 400% (+16 DC), Anticipatory Strike (+8 DC), block Greater Celerity (+14 DC), block Sadism (+2 DC), block Masochism (+2 DC), block Disjoin (+10 DC), block Disjunction (+16 DC), block Timestop (+16 DC), block Greater Consumptive Field (+12 DC), block Improvisation (+0 DC), block Precognition, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Offensive Prescience, and Adrenaline Boost (+0 DC)
Mitigating Factors: +10 minutes casting time (-20 DC), 3900 XP cost (-39 DC), personal (-2 DC)

The following spells do not function within 100' of the target creature:
Anticipatory Strike, Greater Celerity, Sadism, Masochism, Disjoin, Disjunction, Timestop, Greater Consumptive Field, Improvisation, Precognition, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Offensive Prescience, and Adrenaline Boost. These spells fail to affect any target or area within the ward's area. If cast within the ward's boundaries, these spells automatically fail.
If cast outside and then brought inside the ward, they are suppressed until they are no longer within the area. Time suppressed counts against their durations. Spell-like abilities and magic items that duplicate these spell effects are also affected.

The ward moves with the target (note I chose the single-target version for the base).

Cheese Negation II
Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 61
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Range: Personal
Effect: 100' radius spherical emanation centered on caster
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 549,000 gp; 11 days; 21600 XP (paid by Rod of Excellent Magic) +360
Seed: Ward (DC 14). Factors: Change Target to Area (+10 DC), 20' radius (+2 DC), Increase Area 400% (+16 DC), block Consumptive Field (+6 DC), block Celerity (+6 DC), block Fission (+12 DC), block Body Outside Body (+12 DC), block Anticipate Teleportation (+4 DC), block Greater Anticipate Teleportation (+10 DC), block Delay Death (+6 DC), block Superior Invisibility (+14 DC), block Empyreal Ecstasy (+10 DC), block Precognition, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Offensive Prescience, and Adrenaline Boost (+0 DC)
Mitigating Factors: +10 minutes casting time (-20 DC), 3900 XP cost (-40 DC), personal (-2 DC)

As Cheese Negation I, except the spells negated are Consumptive Field, Celerity, Fission, Body Outside Body, Anticipate Teleportation, Greater Anticipate Teleportation, Delay Death, Superior Invisibility, Empyreal Ecstasy, Precognition, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Offensive Prescience, and Adrenaline Boost.

Cheese Negation III
Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 61
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Range: Personal
Effect: 100' radius spherical emanation centered on caster
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 549,000 gp; 11 days; 21240 XP (paid by Rod of Excellent Magic) +720
Seed: Ward (DC 14). Factors: Change Target to Area (+10 DC), 20' radius (+2 DC), Increase Area 400% (+16 DC), block Temporal Acceleration (+10 DC), block Timeless Body (+16 DC), block Synchronicity (+0 DC), block Sublime Revelry (+16 DC), block Starmantle (+10 DC), block Forcecage (+12 DC), block Schism (+6 DC), block Otiluke's Suppressing Field(+6 DC), block Nondetection (+4 DC), block Precognition, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Offensive Prescience, and Adrenaline Boost (+0 DC)
Mitigating Factors: +10 minutes casting time (-20 DC), 3900 XP cost (-39 DC), personal (-2 DC)

As Cheese Negation I, except the spells negated are Temporal Acceleration, Timeless Body, Synchronicity, Sublime Revelry, Starmantle, Forcecage, Schism, Otiluke's Suppressing Field, Nondetection, Precognition, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Offensive Prescience, and Adrenaline Boost.

I also had a way for my character to ignore all of these prohibitions himself.

It's amazing how consistently simply removing a carefully chosen very small portion of the spells and powers in the game from play proved an enormous problem for my opponents.

Antimagic Field is not on the list only because it was dealt with by being house ruled out of existence long before I joined. Looking over the list, I'm a little surprised Wraithstrike isn't on it. I may have just run out of room and decided the difference between that character's normal AC and touch AC wasn't big enough to worry about it.

[Kallisti]

That...is beyond freaking awesome...
Have you won a cookie for that yet? If not, you do now!

[Douglas]

Well, I did beat every opponent I faced. Something about this just didn't work out for them:

Them: Time Stop!
Me: *fizzle*
Them: Temporal Acceleration!
Me: Nope
Them: Synchronicity!
Me: Fails
Them: Pre-buffed with Schism!
Me: Suppressed
Them: Delay Death! Just try and kill me now, I've got Diehard too!
Me: That's gone
Them: Gack, I can't handle your 50,000 damage per round. Timeless Body!
Me: Sorry
Them: I know, let's beat you with numbers. Fission! There's two of me now!
Me: Oops, did I make mini-me vanish just by walking into line of sight?

One particular opponent gave me quite a bit trouble. Among other things he'd used epic Transform spells to cherry pick all the best abilities from a whole bunch of monsters. He was well buffed, very tough, had tens of thousands of hit points, and some impressive offense even for that arena. He managed to get six rounds worth of actions before my first turn. I still won. Here's the match. (http://www.rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=7698&ti=72&date=1211950428&msgpage=&show=all)

Anyway, do you have a way to avoid the mass charge's damage if teleportation is blocked for you?

[Kallisti]

If teleport is blocked, either the Buffer aspect of kaleidoscopic parry which delays all damage for 5 rounds while I flee, or Absolute Perfection of Movement, which makes an attack auto-miss. I can do that three times per body per turn, plus Schisms...