PDA

View Full Version : Daring Outlaw help



DrGonzo
2009-08-06, 05:18 AM
My character is a Swasbuckkler 3/rogue 3, and I'm thinking of taking a few levels of swordsage next. I fight with two kukri's, and I want to take some levels in the Dervish PrC later on (the free weapon focus at lvl 2 SS comes in handy).

What would be the best way to advance this character at this moment?

My stats are:
Str: 12
Dex: 17
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 11
Cha: 13

Race: Human

Feats taken:
Quick Draw, combat expertise, Daring outlaw, two weapon fighting


-DrGonzo

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-06, 05:42 AM
What are the prereqs for Dervish? I don't think you have a load of feats, so, first, be sure you can fullfill them all quite early.

DrGonzo
2009-08-06, 05:52 AM
Dervish Prerequisites (Complete Warrior): BAB +5, Perform (dance) 3, Tumble 3, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus
(any slashing weapon, such as your fists (VUS) or a dagger (Shadow Hand)).

Ranks are no prob, i can use the dodge class feature from swashbuckler. Swordsage grants weapon focus, so i just need to take mobility..

- DrGonzo

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-06, 06:19 AM
The Dodge feat and the Dodge class feature are not the same thing at all, you'll need to spend another feat on Dodge, though you'd be better off with Expeditious Dodge from Races of the Wild.

If you're going to dip into Swordsage, you should definitely get the feat Shadow Blade. That adds your Dex modifier as an additional bonus to your damage, which will be quite a nice boost. Maybe go Swordsage 2/ Fighter 2/ Dervish next, spending your Fighter feats to qualify.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-06, 06:24 AM
Excellent. I guess, so, that you mainly improve TWF and take ITWF and STWF to take the max advantage from Dervish class features.

Someone with more ToB-fu should suggest you SS maneuvers suitable.

I guess if is an acceptable build go for telling blow taking advantage from Assassin Stance. :smallconfused:

DrGonzo
2009-08-06, 06:32 AM
The Dodge feat and the Dodge class feature are not the same thing at all, you'll need to spend another feat on Dodge, though you'd be better off with Expeditious Dodge from Races of the Wild.

If you're going to dip into Swordsage, you should definitely get the feat Shadow Blade. That adds your Dex modifier as an additional bonus to your damage, which will be quite a nice boost. Maybe go Swordsage 2/ Fighter 2/ Dervish next, spending your Fighter feats to qualify.

My DM told me I can use the dodge class feature to fill the prerequisite for dervish. So the only problem I have featwise is mobility, so maybe 1 lvl of fighter is enough.


Excellent. I guess, so, that you mainly improve TWF and take ITWF and STWF to take the max advantage from Dervish class features.

Someone with more ToB-fu should suggest you SS maneuvers suitable.

I guess if is an acceptable build go for telling blow taking advantage from Assassin Stance. :smallconfused:

I will certainly go for ITWF, at lvl 9 or 12. Assassins stance is very useful, but I don't know if it's worth it to take 5 lvls of SS..

- DrGonzo

Weezer
2009-08-06, 07:53 AM
If you wait to take your swordsage levels after you have 8 other class levels then you can get level 3 stances (read assassins stance) with only a one level dip, so maybe go 2 rogue/1 Swordsage/dervish x. YOu could swap out the rogue levels for fighter levels if you need the feats.

Farlion
2009-08-06, 08:02 AM
I'll just hijack this thread if you don't mind ;-D

I built a level 10 dueller using swashbuckler/rogue classes.

Can anyone see any severe faults in the build?

Norrik, male human Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 6

Rogue 1 (1): Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding, Combat expertise, Imp. Feint; (8+Int)*4 skills, 6 hp
Swashbuckler 1 (2): Weapon Finesse (Rapier), 4+Int skills, d10 hp
Swashbuckler 2 (3): Grace +1, Imp. Disarm, 4+Int skills, d10 hp
Rogue 2 (4): Evasion, +1 Dex, 8+Int skills, d6hp
Rogue 3 (5): Sneak Attack +2d6, Trapsense +1
Swashbuckler 3 (6): Insightful strike, Daring outlaw, 4+Int skills, d10 hp
Swashbuckler 4 (7): 4+Int skills, d10 hp
Swashbuckler 5 (8): +1 Dex, Dodge +1, 4+Int skills, d10 hp
Rogue 4 (9): Uncanny Dodge, Telling Blow, 8+Int skills, d6 hp
Swashbuckler 6 (10): 4+Int skills, d10 hp

BAB: +9/+4
HP: 6+6d10+3d6+10*Con-modifier
Skills: (8+1+Int-mod)*7 + (4+1+Int-mod)*6
Fort: 1 + 5 + Con-mod
Ref: 3 + 2 + Dex-mod
Wil: 1 + 2 + Wis-mod
Special features: Sneak Attack +5d6, Dodge Bonus +2, Grace +1, Insightful strike (+Int-mod on dmg), Trapsense +1, Uncanny dodge
Feats: Combat expertise, Weapon Finesse (Rapier), Imp. Feint, Imp. Disarm, Daring Outlaw, Telling Blow

Thanks in advance,

Farlion

DrGonzo
2009-08-06, 08:19 AM
Impr. Feint will really really suck at higher levels..

btw, thanks for the hi-jack.. :smallwink:

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-06, 08:31 AM
If you wait to take your swordsage levels after you have 8 other class levels then you can get level 3 stances (read assassins stance) with only a one level dip, so maybe go 2 rogue/1 Swordsage/dervish x. YOu could swap out the rogue levels for fighter levels if you need the feats.

I never understood this. Wasn't by RAW the first stance always level 1?

DrGonzo: If you fear that your SA go down, remember that with a pair of magic bracers (Secrets of Xen'drik) and a weapon enchant (+2, C Adv IIRC) you can raise your SA by +d6 and +2d6

Farlion: For the improved feint, look at the skill trick Group Fakeout in complete scoundrel. Makes you able to feint against more opponents.

Every "duelist" here should take a look in PHII Tactical Feats. Maybe in your campaign suck, but take a look.

Weezer
2009-08-06, 08:35 AM
I never understood this. Wasn't by RAW the first stance always level 1?

It is rather confusing. Mostly because TOB, unlike every other casting mechanic out there, the level of maneuvers and stances that you can have is based of of your Initiator Level, not your levels in a TOB class. Non-TOB classes get an IL of CL/2 and you need an IL of 5 to get third level stances. So if you take 8 non tob levels (IL4) then one level of SS (IL5) you can take third level stances and maneuvers.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-06, 08:37 AM
It is rather confusing. Mostly because TOB, unlike every other casting mechanic out there, the level of maneuvers and stances that you can have is based of of your Initiator Level, not your levels in a TOB class. Non-TOB classes get an IL of CL/2 and you need an IL of 5 to get third level stances. So if you take 8 non tob levels (IL4) then one level of SS (IL5) you can take third level stances and maneuvers.

I realize this fo maneuvers. But the classes in ToB say that your first stance is always 1st level. Is an overlooking dued to the fact that the author assumes in that moment that you start by level 1?

Eldariel
2009-08-06, 08:47 AM
I realize this fo maneuvers. But the classes in ToB say that your first stance is always 1st level. Is an overlooking dued to the fact that the author assumes in that moment that you start by level 1?

There are two schools about it. One says "Yes", the other says "No". That said, it's easy enough to solve it either way: Just take two levels of Swordsage if you play in the "Yes"-crowd.

That means you only need 6 levels in other classes and can get Assassin's Stance on 8. I like it better this way anyways for the Wis to AC (even if I don't have any Wis to speak of).

Weezer
2009-08-06, 09:13 AM
Weird, I never noticed that. I guess by RAW you'd have to take 2 SS levels to get 3rd level stances, but I do think that it is a rather abitrary and stupid restriction.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-06, 09:16 AM
I realize this fo maneuvers. But the classes in ToB say that your first stance is always 1st level. Is an overlooking dued to the fact that the author assumes in that moment that you start by level 1?

No, it says you begin play knowing a 1st level stance. If you multiclass into a martial adept class, you can pick your first stance based on your initiator level, because your first level is not taken at character creation. Saying it means your first stance always has to be 1st level is just as valid as saying that any character who plans to multiclass into a martial adept class gets a 1st level stance at character creation, regardless of what class it is. Neither is the case, it's just worded under the assumption that your first character level is in that class.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-06, 09:17 AM
Thank you all. I know a Fighter//Knight that will be soon very happy for this :smalltongue:

Anyway, back to DrGonzo PC:

Can be telling blow viable later if we assume 3d6 of SA by daring outlaw, 2d6 from Assassin Stance and 3d6 from items?

Since he's dervish, I assume scimitars and so 15-20 crit range.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-06, 09:55 AM
Can be telling blow viable later if we assume 3d6 of SA by daring outlaw, 2d6 from Assassin Stance and 3d6 from items?

Since he's dervish, I assume scimitars and so 15-20 crit range.
Telling Blow works on a statistical basis, giving a little boost to average damage in a wide variety of circumstances. Because the feat's trigger only needs a critical hit, it also works
for ranged criticals at greater than 30'
when there's concealment
when you haven't moved 10' to qualify for skirmish
Even if you run into enough situations where Telling Blow will help, the feat is still not going to help enough to be worth choosing over other feats unless you've got more damage coming in. The best answer to that is Craven, which adds 1 point of damage per character level to your sneak attack. As this is a constant (not dice) damage bonus, it will get multiplied on a critical sneak attack -- exactly what Telling Blow provides.

So take Craven first, then Telling Blow. And try to get a reliable flanking partner, because that's better still. :smallsmile:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-06, 10:04 AM
A reliable flanking partner (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), you say? That feat is infinitely better than Telling Blow, as it almost guarantees that you'll be getting sneak attack on every hit.

Gnaeus
2009-08-06, 10:22 AM
Best way to advance Daring Outlaw is usually with more Swashbuckler. The 2 level swordsage dip won't hurt you much, but overall, you want to maximize the Full BAB with sneak attack progression for this kind of build.

Usually, you want to take the fourth rogue level somewhat later so that you can spend 8-12 skill points (whatever you get with a level of rogue with your int and race) maximizing your Use Magic Device.

DrGonzo
2009-08-06, 12:28 PM
Hmm..

So if I take 2 levels of SS now I can get the assassins stance, and the weapon focus and some nice martial moves. If I take mobility at 9 I qualify for Dervish.

From then on, should I go Dervish 10 and take ITWF at 12 and craven at 15? Or doesn't that make much sense?

- DrGonzo

Keld Denar
2009-08-06, 01:43 PM
Honestly...I'd hesitate to recommend Dervish. Dervish gets some cool stuff, but synergizes better with Skirmish than Sneak Attack. SA really rewards you for standing in 1 spot and repeatedly stapling someone's kidney and spleen together, primarily because flanking is the easiest way to ensure SA and your flanking buddy won't be dancing around your target at the same time as you. I'd suggest taking your 2 levels of Swordsage and hopping back into Swash to keep your HD, SA, and BAB up.

Swordsage1 at level 7 gives you an IL of 4, for 2nd level maneuvers. Wolf Fang Strike (prereq), Sudden Leap, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Mountain Hammer, Distracting Ember. Ready Sudden Leap, Cloak of Deception, Mountain Hammer, and Distracting Ember. Taking your next SS level at 8 gives you the IL5 you need to get Assassin's Stance, but unfortunately there aren't really many good manevuers there to pick up that synergize with this style, since most 3rd level maneuvers are strikes instead of boosts. Feigned Opening would be ok, except you don't meet the prereqs with my selection unless you swap Mountain Hammer for like...Counter Charge or Baffling Defense. If you can hold off that SS level 8 levels, you'd have an IL of 9 and can nab Pouncing Charge or Dancing Mongoose, but that won't come till level 16, which is a LOT late.

Hmmmm, I think I'm rambling...

DrGonzo
2009-08-06, 01:56 PM
Honestly...I'd hesitate to recommend Dervish. Dervish gets some cool stuff, but synergizes better with Skirmish than Sneak Attack. SA really rewards you for standing in 1 spot and repeatedly stapling someone's kidney and spleen together, primarily because flanking is the easiest way to ensure SA and your flanking buddy won't be dancing around your target at the same time as you. I'd suggest taking your 2 levels of Swordsage and hopping back into Swash to keep your HD, SA, and BAB up.

Hmm.. True..

But if I take the skilltrick Acrobatic Backstab, and combine it with movement mastery so I can take 10 at tumble checks won´t I be able to tumble 5 ft, take 10 on the check, do the kidney/spleen staple, tumble, rince and repeat?

- DrGonzo

Glimbur
2009-08-06, 01:59 PM
Hmm.. True..

But if I take the skilltrick Acrobatic Backstab, and combine it with movement mastery so I can take 10 at tumble checks won´t I be able to tumble 5 ft, take 10 on the check, do the kidney/spleen staple, tumble, rince and repeat?

- DrGonzo

There's no rinse and repeat on skill tricks. You can use them once an encounter, more often if you cheat via some PrC's or probably feats.

Siosilvar
2009-08-06, 02:01 PM
DrGonzo: If you fear that your SA go down, remember that with a pair of magic bracers (Secrets of Xen'drik) and a weapon enchant (+2, C Adv IIRC) you can raise your SA by +d6 and +2d6

You can get another +1d6 with the Assassination enhancement from the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a)

DrGonzo
2009-08-06, 02:07 PM
There's no rinse and repeat on skill tricks. You can use them once an encounter, more often if you cheat via some PrC's or probably feats.

Well, that sucks.. But can I tumble 5 ft every time? My modifier is high enough to hit the DC, especially at level 9..

Darrin
2009-08-06, 03:13 PM
From then on, should I go Dervish 10 and take ITWF at 12 and craven at 15? Or doesn't that make much sense?


I'd also recommend rethinking Dervish. Everything interesting that the PrC offers you can get by taking Travel Devotion (CChamp) and Oversize TWF (CAdv).

You can also get ITWF via a magic item, Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC, 8000 GP).

If you want to do TWF properly, then get into Bloodclaw Master ASAP. Reduce your TWF penalty to zero, along with some other perks.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-06, 05:05 PM
Well, that sucks.. But can I tumble 5 ft every time? My modifier is high enough to hit the DC, especially at level 9.. If you want to Tumble as a 5' adjustment you can't do it at half speed, because that would only get you 2.5'. You must use Accelerated Tumbling, so you'll need to make DC 35 (25 to move through the enemy's space, and 10 more for Accelerated Tumbling). The Dervish's Movement Mastery only gets you 10, and level 9 gets you 12 ranks. That's not very close.

elonin
2009-08-06, 06:55 PM
Not familiar with Bloodclaw Master, but Temest will remove the TWF penalties.

Keld Denar
2009-08-06, 08:04 PM
Tempest is also like...one of the WORST PrCs in the game. Its like a monk in that it likes to move around, yet it should be standing still. Two Weapon Spring Attack is...lackluster. VERY lackluster, and all of the other abilities are things that TWF should ALREADY do, or making crappy feats slightly less crappy. Seriously...not so good. I had a good rant on Tempest a few days ago.

And the removal of TWF penalties is really only a +2 to hit. Lots of other things give +2 to hit as well, and a lot of them are considered pretty bad. Trying too hard to get rid of them (Tempest) is really really bad, but getting them taken away while getting neat stuff (Bloodclaw Master) is more preferable. The real killer to TWF is the .5 str with your offhand. Bloodclaw Master gets rid of that, as does the use of Shadow Blade (since there is no .5 dex damage offhand clause).

But yea...Tempest is bad. You'd be better off spending 5 levels on something else...almost ANYTHING else, than setting 5 levels on fire with that class. Even if you already meet all the prereqs!

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-06, 08:34 PM
Acrobatic Backstab only works when you tumble through the space occupied by the enemy, which already has a DC ten higher than just tumbling to avoid AoOs, and you'd have to move at least 10 ft. each time to exit their space.

For this character I'd pick up Swordsage 2 immediately, then go with more Swashbuckler. Hire an NPC Psion to use Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) on you to get rid of Combat Expertise or Quick Draw to take Craven. Get Shadow Blade at 9, ITWF at 12, and GTWF at 15.

DrGonzo
2009-08-07, 01:37 AM
For this character I'd pick up Swordsage 2 immediately, then go with more Swashbuckler. Hire an NPC Psion to use Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) on you to get rid of Combat Expertise or Quick Draw to take Craven. Get Shadow Blade at 9, ITWF at 12, and GTWF at 15.

I've considered, reconsidered, and it all adds up to this. Thanks all you guys for your help, and thanks Biffoniacus_Furiou for the cliffnotes version :smallwink: