[3.5 PrC] Dualist (PEACH)

[DragoonWraith]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/DragoonWraith/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons/Homebrew/Dualist.png
"You don't need strength as much as speed. We're fragile creatures. It takes less than a pound of pressure to cut skin."

The dualist is a duelist with dual weapons. She is a melee fighter who relies on exceptionally quick reflexes above all else; as she parries and dodges, she waits for the opportune moment to strike - and then presses her advantage relentlessly.

A dualist is a master of reactive combat. She uses the opportunities that her opponents offer to the fullest extent possible, and can even take advantage of opportunities that others would miss. For the dualist, the number of attacks of opportunity per round determines how often she can use a number of features, which may or may not actually involve attacking.

Rogues can make excellent dualists, as they are already trained in the art of taking advantage of unsuspecting opponents, but may find the idea of standing tall in front of the enemy unnerving. Fighters, and other martial classes, that specialize in dexterity rather than strength may also be able to put the dualist's skills to great use.

Also on Fax Celestis's Wiki: Dualist (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Dualist)
Requirements
Feats: Combat Reflexes, either Two Weapon Fighting or Weapon Finesse
and Either:
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Skills: Tumble 8, Bluff 2, Sense Motive 2Or:
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Skills: Tumble 2, Bluff 2, Sense Motive 2

Hit Die
d8

Skills
Class Skills
The dualist's class skills (and the key ability for each) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points per Level
4 + her Int modifier

Class Features
{table=head]_Level_|_BAB_|_Fort_|_Ref_|_Will_|_Special________ ______________________________________

1|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+0|Weapon Focus, Dualism, Opportunistic Strike +3

2|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+0|Parry, Opposition

3|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1|Counter-Attack, Dual Weapon Specialization, Opportunistic Strike +6

4|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1|Doubled Opportunity, Greater Feint, En Garde (x1)

5|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+1|Coup Lancé, Careful Strike, Opportunistic Strike +9

6|
+6|
+2|
+5|
+2|Disorienting Parry, Attaque au Fer

7|
+7|
+2|
+5|
+2|Flèche, Combat Understanding, Opportunistic Strike +12

8|
+8|
+2|
+6|
+2|Parry Ally, Measured Devastation, En Garde (x2)

9|
+9|
+3|
+6|
+3|Precision Damage, Opportunistic Strike +15

10|
+10|
+3|
+7|
+3|Cover Ground, Remise, En Garde (Swift Action)[/table]

Five-Level Variant
I actually am beginning to think I like this version better. Thoughts appreciated:
{table=head]_Level_|_BAB_|_Fort_|_Ref_|_Will_|_Special________ ______________________________________

1|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+0|Dualism, Parry (with half Sense Motive bonus), Opportunistic Strike +3

2|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+0|Counter-Attack, Greater Feint, En Garde (x1)

3|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1|Doubled Opportunity, Dual Weapon Specialization, Opportunistic Strike +6

4|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1|Parry Ally, Coup Lancé, En Garde (x2)

5|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+1|Cover Ground, Disorienting Parry, Opportunistic Strike +9[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The dualist does not gain proficiency in any weapons or armor.

Weapon Focus
A dualist gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level, but she may only take this feat in a one-handed weapon (not light or two-handed) in which she is proficient. If she already has Weapon Focus, she may take it again, but it still must be in a one-handed weapon.

Dualism
If she qualified for the class with Two Weapon Fighting, a dualist gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. If she qualified with Weapon Finesse, she gains Two Weapon Fighting. If she already has both, she does not gain any benefit from this portion of the feature.

In addition to these bonus feats, the dualist also may treat any one-handed weapon in which she has Weapon Focus as a light weapon for the purposes of dual-wielding penalties and for Weapon Finesse.

Opportunistic Strike
Whenever a dualist makes an attack of opportunity with a weapon in which she has a Weapon Focus, she gets a +3 bonus to her damage roll. As a flat numerical bonus, this damage is multiplied by critical hits.

This bonus increases by another +3 damage every two levels after 1st (to a maximum of +15 at level 9). Every +3 Opportunistic Strike damage is equivalent to +1d6 worth of Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, or Skirmish damage for the purpose of pre-requisites and the activation of certain feats (such as Ambush feats).

Parry
At 2nd level, a dualist masters the art of parrying. By expending an attack of opportunity use when she is attacked in melee, she may make an opposed attack roll against her assailant. She must use Weapon Finesse for this roll; if she cannot Finesse the weapon that she is using, she may not use this ability. In the result of a tie, the dualist wins. If she succeeds, she deflects that attack, avoiding its damage, but has one fewer attack of opportunity that she might use at subsequent opportunities. She may use this ability as often as she likes, provided she still has attacks of opportunity to use for it.

In the five-level variant, the Dualist gains this ability at 1st level, and also adds half her Sense Motive bonus to her attack roll to Parry.

Opposition
A 2nd level dualist is a master of controlling her opponent's blows. As a swift action, she may hold any adjacent foe's weapon in opposition with any one-handed weapon in which she has Weapon Focus. The opponent receives a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls until the dualist attacks or the opponent is no longer adjacent to her. If she does not have a weapon available in which she has Weapon Focus, she cannot use this feature.

Counter-Attack
Anyone who is parried by a 3rd level dualist provokes an attack of opportunity from her, allowing her to use a second attack of opportunity to deliver a single melee strike at her highest attack bonus. She must use Weapon Finesse for this attack; if she is not using a weapon that she can Finesse, she may not use this ability. She also may not use the same weapon to parry and then counter, so in order to counter she must have one weapon to Finesse for the parry, and a second weapon to Finesse for the counter-attack. Any appropriate bonuses, including Opportunistic Strike, apply to this attack.

In the five-level variant, the dualist gains this ability at 2nd level.

Dual Weapon Specialization
At 3rd level, a dualist learns to excel in the art of her dual weapons. She gains Improved Two Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat. If she already has this feat, she does not gain any benefit from this portion of the feature.

Also, the requirements on Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization change. The requirement of a given level in the Fighter class is removed, and replaced with a requirement of Dualist 3 for Weapon Specialization, Dualist 6 for Greater Weapon Focus, and Dualist 9 for Greater Weapon Specialization. She may take these feats as normal after meeting those pre-requisites.

In the five-level variant, this feature is still gained at level 3. However, the requirements for Weapon Specialization are Dualist 1 for Weapon Specialization, Dualist 3 for Greater Weapon Focus, and Dualist 5, total hit dice 12 for Greater Weapon Specialization. The five-level variant also gains Careful Strike, but only for weapons in which she has a Greater Weapon Focus, and Measured Devastation, but only for weapons in which she has Greater Weapon Specialization.

Doubled Opportunity
Any time a 4th level dualist successfully hits an enemy for damage with an attack of opportunity, she may immediately take another attack of opportunity at a -5 penalty to the attack roll. She must make this attack with Weapon Finesse, and it cannot be with the same weapon that made the first attack of opportunity (but may be with a weapon used to Parry, if the Counter-Attack successfully hits and deals damage). If she has no weapon that qualifies for Weapon Finesse available, she may not use this feature.

If the dualist uses this feature while she is moving (for example, doubling a counter-attack in response to attacks of opportunity that she draws from opponents as she moves past), she deducts 10 feet from her move speed for that action (this is before any modifiers, so if running at double one's move speed, a total of 20 feet would be deducted). If this reduction would cause her to have moved further than her reduced move speed, she stops in the square where the attack was made.

The dualist features Flèche and Cover Ground generate attacks that are treated as attacks of opportunity but are not eligible for Doubled Opportunity. All other attacks treated as attacks of opportunity, unless otherwise noted, are eligible for Doubled Opportunity.

This ability is gained at the 3rd level of the five-level variant.

Greater Feint
At 3rd level, a dualist may feint more quickly. Feint actions take one lesser action than they would otherwise, according to the table:
{table=head]Originally|Now
Standard|Move
Move|Swift
Swift|Free, 1/round[/table]

The five-level variant gains this feature at 2nd level.

En Garde
As a standard action, a 4th level dualist may prepare for her opponent's action. She adds a number equal to the number of attacks she would get in a full-round action to the maximum number of attacks of opportunity she can make during the next round.

At dualist level 8, the dualist gains twice as many attacks of opportunity as she would have had attacks in a full-round action.

At dualist level 10, this action is reduced to a swift action.

If, for whatever reason, the dualist can use Engarde and still make a full-round attack, any iterative attacks she uses are not added to her number of attacks of opportunity. The first attack of the sequence, or any single attacks she makes as a part of other actions, are not removed from the number of extra attacks of opportunity that she gets to make.

For example, a Rogue 5/Dualist 10 with a base attack bonus of +13/+8/+3 and Two Weapon Fighting (but not the Improved or Greater versions) gets four attacks during a full-round attack: one regular attack, a bonus attack from Two Weapon Fighting, and two iterative attacks. She may make a single attack as a standard action, and then as a swift action may increase her number of attacks of opportunity for the following round by eight (twice the number she would have had as a full-round attack). If the same dualist gets the opportunity to make a full-round attack in addition to the Engarde use, and she makes four attacks during that attack (one regular attack, one from Two-Weapon Fighting, and two more from her iteratives), she only adds two attacks of opportunity, because the first regular attack still counts even though it was used in the full-round attack. The bonus and iterative attacks have been used for the round, however, and do not get added.

Coup Lancé
A 5th level dualist learns to always press her advantage. If an adjacent foe is about to become non-adjacent for any reason (e.g., her opponent's move or 5 foot step, teleportation, bull rush, etc, whether it is because the opponent or the dualist is the one moving), or falls to 0 hit points or fewer, the dualist may, by using two attacks of opportunity, make a single melee attack at her highest attack bonus as an attack of opportunity. She must use Weapon Finesse with this attack roll; if she cannot Finesse the weapon that she is using, she may not use this ability. The target is treated as flat-footed for this attack.

The five-level variant gains En Garde at 2nd level, when it adds a number of attacks equal to a full-attack action. At 4th level, this increases to twice that number. The five-level variant does not gain the swift-action version.

Careful Strike
Upon reaching 5th level, any one-handed weapon in the hands of a dualist who has Weapon Focus in that weapon, gains a +1 to its critical threat range (so your standard issue rapier goes from 18-20 to 17-20), during any attack of opportunity or against flat-footed foes (an attack of opportunity against a flat-footed foe does not get +2, just +1). This bonus applies before any critical threat range bonuses, such as Keen or Improved Critical (so a Keen Rapier would have a 13-20 threat range instead of a 15-20 threat range).

The five-level variant gains this feature as a part of Dual Weapon Specialization, but only with weapons in which she has a Greater Weapon Focus.

Disorienting Parry
After her 6th level, a dualist has mastered the art of opening up her opponent for a devastating attack. After a successful parry, her opponent is treated as flat-footed for her counter-attack, if she uses one, and for her follow-up attack, if she uses Doubled Opportunity.

Because this flat-footed status is a result of the Dualist's own skills, and not a result of taking her opponent unawares, attacking an opponent who is flat-footed due to this ability does not violate a Knight's code of honor.

The five-level variant gains this feature at 5th level.

Attaque au Fer
Once per round, a 6th level dualist may make a disarm attempt as an attack action. She gains a +4 bonus to this attempt, and her opponent cannot attempt to disarm her if her attempt fails. If successful, she disarms her opponent (but may not choose to catch their weapon), and may make an immediate attack against them at her highest base attack bonus. This attack is considered an attack of opportunity, but does not trigger Doubled Opportunity. The target is flat-footed against this attack. If she fails, she provokes an attack of opportunity from her opponent, but her opponent does not get the attack of opportunity until after she has made her attempt, so her opponent cannot foil the disarm attempt.

Flèche
As a charge-equivalent action, a 7th level dualist may choose a single opponent and move towards them, ending in the square adjacent to that opponent that was opposite to where the dualist started. She does not draw attacks of opportunity from that opponent for this movement, and may move unhindered through the opponent's space. She may not move more than twice her move speed, however. At the end of the movement, the dualist makes a single melee attack, as per a normal charge, but that attack is treated as an attack of opportunity and the opponent is treated as flat-footed for this attack. If the dualist gains a full-round attack as part of normal charge actions, she may do so, but only the first strike is treated as if against a flat-footed opponent (unless, of course, her opponent is actually flat-footed). All of the attacks are treated as attacks of opportunity, however.

Further, this action counts as En Garde for the purposes of adding to the dualist's number of attacks of opportunity, but only adds a number of attacks of opportunity equal to one full-round attack, not double this number even after En Garde gains the ability to do so at level 8. As usual with En Garde, if the dualist gains a full-round attack at the end of the charge, any bonus or iterative attacks used in the full-round attack are not added to the dualist's attacks of opportunities for the round.

Combat Understanding
A 7th level dualist may expend an extra attack of opportunity to add her Sense Motive check as a bonus to her attack rolls while parrying.

The five-level variant adds half her Sense Motive bonus to her attack rolls while parrying, but this does not cost an attack of opportunity. It is also gained at 1st level, as part of the Parry ability.

Parry Ally
An 8th level dualist has become so skilled with her parries that she can defend others as well as herself. She may parry against any melee attack directed at a target in any square adjacent to her, though she takes a -4 penalty on this roll. If she succeeds, she may Counter-Attack as usual, if her opponent is in range, and if he is not, she may expend an additional attack of opportunity to move up to 10 feet to get in range for her Counter-Attack. This movement does provoke an attack of opportunity, which may be parried and countered as well, but if she takes damage from her opponent's attack of opportunity, she stops in the square where she took the damage and does not get either of the Counter-Attacks.

The five-level variant gains this feature at 4th level.

Measured Devastation
When making an attack of opportunity or attacking a flat-footed foe, any one-handed weapons used by an 8th level dualist has Weapon Focus in them have their critical multiplier advanced, so a x2 becomes a x3, and a x3 becomes a x4, and a x4 becomes a x5. A bonus higher than x5 is impossible.

The five-level variant gains this feature as a part of the Dual Weapon Specialization feature, but only with weapons in which she has Greater Weapon Specialization.

Precision Damage
When using Weapon Finesse on an attack roll, a 9th level dualist may add her dexterity modifier to her damage roll. This is in addition to her strength modifier.

Cover Ground
By 10th level, a dualist not only watches for opportunities to strike adjacent opponents, but those farther away, as well. By using two attacks of opportunity, the dualist may move up to half her move speed and attack any target within that range that uses an action that provokes an attack of opportunity. This attack is considered an attack of opportunity, but is not eligible for Double Opportunity. The movement, however, does provoke attacks of opportunity, which the dualist may parry and counter as normal. If she takes damage from any attack of opportunity during this movement, however, she stops in the square where she was struck, and does not gain the ability to hit any target. Her parry roll against opponents other than the target she is moving towards takes a -6 penalty, as well.

In addition, the Parry Ally ability is changed to allow the dualist to move up to half her move speed towards any target that is melee attacking any ally of hers that is also within range, and make a parry attempt (and gain the subsequent counter-attack if successful). This move plus parry action costs the same two attacks of opportunities that the move plus attack action of the usual Cover Ground ability, while the subsequent Counter-Attack and Double Opportunity require another attack of opportunity each.

In the five-level variant, the Dualist gains this ability at 5th level.

Remise
A 10th level dualist may use three attacks of opportunity to reroll any melee attack at a +2 bonus. She may decide to use this after to seeing the result of the first roll. This ability cannot be used to reroll a reroll, so each attack has a maximum of two rolls, but separate attacks may be rerolled so long as the dualist has attacks of opportunity with which to use this ability.

Picture Credits
The Dualist artwork is adapted from "Duelling Armor" (http://inkthinker.deviantart.com/art/Duelling-Armor-22031208) by Ben McSweeney. Used with permission. All credit goes to him for the image.

[Frog Dragon]

Make Parry an opposed attack roll against the enemy's attack roll (which was made in attempt to kill you so the opponent makes no new rolls). Draws to parryer. How's that?

Also: Keep full BAB. This is a straight up melee combat class even if it is a finesse/dual wielding styled.

[Harperfan7]

I agree with frog dragon on both points.

I'm going to point out that you could take this class at 3rd level.

I would change their hit die to d8 and give them sneak attack as a rogue, and maybe battle fortitude like the scout (maybe minus the init bonus). The reason there is that any melee class with d6, bad fort save, and no special defensive ability won't last. Sneak attack just because the class needs it to be effective.

I would change engarde to "any time you use total defense" and upgrade it at 9th to "any time you fight defensively."

I don't like relentless, it doesn't really fit the other abilities and doesn't seem very useful. Everything up to 8th is simple and cool and effective.

Maybe those two str and con drain attacks that the swashbuckler class gets?
8th and 9th respectively?

Overall, I like this and would play one. Good job, sir. (Definitely add sneak attack!)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Looks great. Engarde, however, is a little weak considering you already have an exceptional Dexterity and you'd get, at most, 3 extra attacks...not worth the action in my mind.

Ideas (drawn from fencing) that might interest you:

Coup lancé: If an opponent adjacent to you becomes non-adjacent through any means (including a 5 foot step, teleportation, or planar travel) or falls to 0 hit points or below, you may, as an immediate action, make a single melee attack against them at your highest attack bonus.

Attack au Fer: Once per round you may make a disarm attempt as an attack action. You gain a +4 bonus to this attempt, and your opponent cannot attempt to disarm you if your attempt fails. If successful, you disarm your opponent (but may not choose to catch their weapon), and may make an immediate attack against them at your highest base attack bonus. They are flat-footed against this attack. If you fail, your next attack against the same opponent this round gains a +2 bonus to the attack roll.

Fleche: As a charge equivalent action, you may choose a single opponent and move towards that opponent, ending your movement in a square adjacent to them on their opposite side. You do not draw attacks of opportunity from that opponent for this movement, and you may move unhindered through that opponent's space. You may not move more than twice your land speed. At the end of your attack, you may make a single melee attack as per usual, but your opponent is flat-footed against the attack.

Opposition: As a swift action, you may hold an adjacent foe's weapon in opposition. That opponent receives a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls against you until you attack or the opponent is no longer adjacent to you.

Presentation: As a swift action, you may extend your blade to threaten your opponent. You may make an immediate attack of opportunity against the first foe to attack you in melee before the beginning of your next turn.

Remise: Once per round, as an immediate action, you may re-roll a single melee attack roll with a +2 bonus. You may use this ability after seeing the result of the original roll.

Stop Thrust: Whenever you land a successful attack with your Presentation ability, your opponent automatically misses with the provoking attack.

[DragoonWraith]

Make Parry an opposed attack roll against the enemy's attack roll (which was made in attempt to kill you so the opponent makes no new rolls). Draws to parryer. How's that?

Also: Keep full BAB. This is a straight up melee combat class even if it is a finesse/dual wielding styled.
I agree with frog dragon on both points.
Sounds good.


I'm going to point out that you could take this class at 3rd level.
Pre-reqs were just shuffled around from the duelist, who had a Tumble 5, Perform 3 requirement, plus three feats. But that doesn't mean I'm married to them; I really didn't put a lot of thought into them.


I would change their hit die to d8 and give them sneak attack as a rogue, and maybe battle fortitude like the scout (maybe minus the init bonus). The reason there is that any melee class with d6, bad fort save, and no special defensive ability won't last. Sneak attack just because the class needs it to be effective.
I figured they'd enter with Sneak Attack, but yeah, I'm going to add damage to the Counter attack. Will look into Battle Fortitude.


I would change engarde to "any time you use total defense" and upgrade it at 9th to "any time you fight defensively."
Will consider that.


I don't like relentless, it doesn't really fit the other abilities and doesn't seem very useful. Everything up to 8th is simple and cool and effective.
Well, I figured if the dualist could regularly avoid attacks and return them in kind, people would just go around her. I wanted to give her the ability to stay with them.

Really, she's supposed to be a tank, of sorts - but relying on not being hit rather than soaking up hits.

I hadn't really considered how she'd fare around magic, though.


Maybe those two str and con drain attacks that the swashbuckler class gets?
8th and 9th respectively?
Will look into that.


Overall, I like this and would play one. Good job, sir. (Definitely add sneak attack!)
Sweet, thanks.


Looks great. Engarde, however, is a little weak considering you already have an exceptional Dexterity and you'd get, at most, 3 extra attacks...not worth the action in my mind.
Well, I have plans for more maneuvers that use up AoOs, though you're right that it's still only going to be 3 extra. Maybe I'll double it... maybe.


Ideas (drawn from fencing) that might interest you:
Sweet, thanks.


Coup lancé: If an opponent adjacent to you becomes non-adjacent through any means (including a 5 foot step, teleportation, or planar travel) or falls to 0 hit points or below, you may, as an immediate action, make a single melee attack against them at your highest attack bonus.
I'd rather stick with them... unless... hmm. Would Stand Still prevent the movement, even if it's teleportation?


Attack au Fer: Once per round you may make a disarm attempt as an attack action. You gain a +4 bonus to this attempt, and your opponent cannot attempt to disarm you if your attempt fails. If successful, you disarm your opponent (but may not choose to catch their weapon), and may make an immediate attack against them at your highest base attack bonus. They are flat-footed against this attack. If you fail, your next attack against the same opponent this round gains a +2 bonus to the attack roll.
Oh, sweet. I like this one. I hadn't considered disarming.


Fleche: As a charge equivalent action, you may choose a single opponent and move towards that opponent, ending your movement in a square adjacent to them on their opposite side. You do not draw attacks of opportunity from that opponent for this movement, and you may move unhindered through that opponent's space. You may not move more than twice your land speed. At the end of your attack, you may make a single melee attack as per usual, but your opponent is flat-footed against the attack.
Hmm... interesting. Strictly superior to a normal charge, but still probably not as good as pounce. Very interesting.


Opposition: As a swift action, you may hold an adjacent foe's weapon in opposition. That opponent receives a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls against you until you attack or the opponent is no longer adjacent to you.
Hmm. Sounds good.


Presentation: As a swift action, you may extend your blade to threaten your opponent. You may make an immediate attack of opportunity against the first foe to attack you in melee before the beginning of your next turn.
Err... why wouldn't you just parry and counter?


Remise: Once per round, as an immediate action, you may re-roll a single melee attack roll with a +2 bonus. You may use this ability after seeing the result of the original roll.
Hmm, I like that.


Stop Thrust: Whenever you land a successful attack with your Presentation ability, your opponent automatically misses with the provoking attack.
Again, Parry and Counter already does what this does, in order.

[Lappy9000]

That pun is awfully amazing!

Looks good as far as I can tell. Great job!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Err... why wouldn't you just parry and counter?

You still can. It's a swift action that doesn't remove your ability to counter. It just gives you a free attack. :smallbiggrin:

Makes attacking you deadly. :smallbiggrin:

[DragoonWraith]

That pun is awfully amazing!

Looks good as far as I can tell. Great job!
Isn't it though? Heh, it amused me.

Anyway, been fiddling. Now it just seems like she gets a lot of abilities, even if none of them are omgwtf amazing. Still trying to work Fleche into this.


You still can. It's a swift action that doesn't remove your ability to counter. It just gives you a free attack. :smallbiggrin:

Makes attacking you deadly. :smallbiggrin:
But you could do that anyway. It still uses your attack of opportunity, no? As it stands, if you get attacked, you parry and then you counter-attack. OK, that uses two attacks of opportunity... Hmm...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

But you could do that anyway. It still uses your attack of opportunity, no? As it stands, if you get attacked, you parry and then you counter-attack. OK, that uses two attacks of opportunity... Hmm...

Nope. Presentation, as I suggested it, requires no attack of opportunity. It's a free attack for the cost of your swift action on the previous turn.

That said, it's probably not necessary...the class is filling up, and this ability doesn't add that much to the flavor.

[Origomar]

im not sure i understand what you mean by expending AoO, normally arent AoO just when you do something distracting and the opponent gets unfocused you get an extra attack, or if an opponent moves in or out of an area you get an extra attack?

so how could you do 3 AoO attacks at once x.x


Edit: nvm i think i know what you mean, you build up AoO and dont use them as soon as you get them(if you dont want to) and can use them later?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

im not sure i understand what you mean by expending AoO, normally arent AoO just when you do something distracting and the opponent gets unfocused you get an extra attack, or if an opponent moves in or out of an area you get an extra attack?

so how could you do 3 AoO attacks at once x.x


Edit: nvm i think i know what you mean, you build up AoO and dont use them as soon as you get them(if you dont want to) and can use them later?

I don't think so. I think you sacrifice potential AoOs in a round.

For instances: I have Combat Reflexes and a 24 Dexterity, so I have 8 AoOs in a round.

I make a full attack, but two attacks miss. For each attack, I give up 3 AoOs to Remise, re-rolling both die. Then, on my turn, I'm attacked. I spend one AoO chance to parry, and another to counter. I have no more AoOs options left: if an enemy draws an AoO from me after this point, I cannot take it.

[DragoonWraith]

I don't think so. I think you sacrifice potential AoOs in a round.

For instances: I have Combat Reflexes and a 24 Dexterity, so I have 8 AoOs in a round.

I make a full attack, but two attacks miss. For each attack, I give up 3 AoOs to Remise, re-rolling both die. Then, on my turn, I'm attacked. I spend one AoO chance to parry, and another to counter. I have no more AoOs options left: if an enemy draws an AoO from me after this point, I cannot take it.
Exactly. The idea was to turn AoOs into a pool similar to Ki or Rage (in Pathfinder; one of the good things from that...).

[DragoonWraith]

OK, I think she's just about done. Remaining questions:
Pre-reqs?
Level at which Disorienting Parry is gained? It seems kind of stuck in there. Actually, the levels at which anything is gained is somewhat uncertain to me, so feel free to comment on any of them.
Rate of AoO use - does she use enough of them to justify Engarde? Does she have enough of them to use her abilities well?
Amount and style of Counter damage. Is it good?

[Dante & Vergil]

Counter
A 3rd level dualist can follow up a parry with an attack. On a successful parry, the dualist may use another attack of opportunity to counter-attack her assailant, gaining a single attack at full attack bonus. This attack is treated as an attack of opportunity for all bonuses that affect attacks of opportunity.

She also gains a +3 to her damage roll during any attack of opportunity at 3rd level, and this increases by 2 every other level, and then finally gains another +1 at level 10, for a total of +10. Treat each +2 of Counter damage as equivalent to +1d6 worth of Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, or Skirmish damage for the purposes of pre-requisites. As a flat numerical bonus, this damage does get multiplied by critical hits.

With the bolded text in mind, does this mean that I can give bonus damage from Counter, in the +2 increments, to activate ambush feats or similar abilities? If so, could I give up counter and sneak attack damage in any combination for ambush feats or like abilities?

Also, does the bonus to threat range from Careful Strike apply to only attacks of opportunity or flat-footed enemies? The wording is abit off for me so I can't tell.

I do like this class though and it actually makes me want to play a non-caster for once. Thank you for that.:smallbiggrin:

[DragoonWraith]

Not familiar with ambush feats, though my generic answer to that is "Ask your DM." Personally, I'd probably be fine with it - ambushes don't really fit the flavor of the dualist, but if you've got those feats they probably fit the flavor of your character.

Yes, Careful Strike and Measured Devastation only apply to flat-footed enemies or to attacks of opportunity. Using your regular attacks against non-flat-footed enemies would not get those bonuses.

Anyway, sweet! I'm glad you like the class.

[Dante & Vergil]

Ambush feats are sneak-attack feats. They allow you give up an amount of sneak-attack dice to do something different. Nothing more.

Thank you for clearing that up. I had to be sure that was how it worked.

Nope problems, I hope, and wish you well with this. (I already turned it into a word document.):smallwink:

[DragoonWraith]

I just looked up the Ambush feats, and the answer is definitely. Those are excellent feats to go with this character, I think.

Jeez, Complete Scoundrel is an excellent book. I'm pretty certain that it's my favorite 3.5 book out there.

[Gorgondantess]

Ahh... I know you want rogues to be able to get into this class early, but as is a non-human swashbuckler with no flaws or anything can get into it at 4th level, rather than the 6th most require; I'd definitely change the prereqs to at least having a skill point requirement of 8.
Anyhow, it's bloody brilliant, but I'd probably give it oversized TWF for free, so they can wield rapiers in both hands without the big penalty; yes, rapiers are not light weapons. Just finnessable.

[DragoonWraith]

Hmm. What skill, then? I don't want to exclude Fighters from it, either.

Anyway, I didn't know that Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting even existed! Will use that. Though Dual Rapiers would have done the same thing, just restricted to Rapiers.

I'm actually thinking of eliminating the Rapier focus, and just have the features apply to those one-handed weapons in which you have Weapon Focus. I don't like arbitrary restrictions like that, and even though I think rapiers would do best, player choice is always good. Besides, the girl in the picture's got a mace, too. Thoughts on that? Should I restrict it to martial weapons only? I figure if you spent the feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency, then you should be allowed to take advantage, but then I worry that the Careful Strike and Measured Devastation abilities will become unbalanced.

Also, I'm thinking of bumping Counter-Attack damage to +3 = +1d6, and giving +3 every two levels. It's still less than the average on Sneak Attack dice, and even on critical hits, it's less than the max you could get on Sneak Attack - until you get the x3 from Measured Devastation. Thoughts?

Anyhow, thanks!

[Gorgondantess]

Hmm. What skill, then? I don't want to exclude Fighters from it, either.
Tumble, I'd say- it's CC for fighters, but then you can just take evels in swashbuckler, can't you? If you must make it a fighter skill, probably jump.


Anyway, I didn't know that Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting even existed! Will use that. Though Dual Rapiers would have done the same thing, just restricted to Rapiers.

*Facepalm* nnngh... I can't believe I didn't see that.


I'm actually thinking of eliminating the Rapier focus, and just have the features apply to those one-handed weapons in which you have Weapon Focus. I don't like arbitrary restrictions like that, and even though I think rapiers would do best, player choice is always good. Besides, the girl in the picture's got a mace, too. Thoughts on that? Should I restrict it to martial weapons only? I figure if you spent the feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency, then you should be allowed to take advantage, but then I worry that the Careful Strike and Measured Devastation abilities will become unbalanced.
Definitely- just make it weapons in which you have weapon focus- what if someone wants to use daggers, or spears?


Also, I'm thinking of bumping Counter-Attack damage to +3 = +1d6, and giving +3 every two levels. It's still less than the average on Sneak Attack dice, and even on critical hits, it's less than the max you could get on Sneak Attack - until you get the x3 from Measured Devastation. Thoughts?
That would definitely work. I like it.

[Origomar]

thanks for explaining.

[The Neoclassic]

Focused but simple and classy. Nice.

My only crunch-related comment would be that Two Weapon Fighting might be a good requirement; one should probably already have some idea how to fight with two rapiers before entering this class. Then again, I can see there are already three required feats so I'd understand if you didn't add it.

The class can still be taken at 3rd level which is unusual for PrCs. I see your trouble in trying to come up with a good way to fix it though, particularly if you want the class to be a reasonable option for both fighters and rogues.

[Gorgondantess]

8 ranks in jump required would be a good one. Oh, wait, how about this one: "8 ranks in any dexterity-based skill". Eh? Ehh?:smallbiggrin:

[DragoonWraith]

Focused but simple and classy. Nice.

My only crunch-related comment would be that Two Weapon Fighting might be a good requirement; one should probably already have some idea how to fight with two rapiers before entering this class. Then again, I can see there are already three required feats so I'd understand if you didn't add it.

The class can still be taken at 3rd level which is unusual for PrCs. I see your trouble in trying to come up with a good way to fix it though, particularly if you want the class to be a reasonable option for both fighters and rogues.
Exactly; four feats is a bit much. Sure, they're not awful feats (well, two of them aren't), but I really think that a fencer (using one rapier thus far) could enter this class and then learn how to use two rapiers, while the rogue who has been using two knives can also learn to use a pair of rapiers.


8 ranks in jump required would be a good one. Oh, wait, how about this one: "8 ranks in any dexterity-based skill". Eh? Ehh?:smallbiggrin:
Heh, well, I decided to make the Tumble requirement 8, and then reduce the Tumble requirement to 2 if you have +5 BAB. Both cannot happen before level 5, but different classes can qualify in different ways. I think it works.

Anyway, I've changed the damage as discussed in a previous post, moved a few things around, eliminated the rapier requirements, generally changing them to be any one-handed weapon in which the dualist has Weapon Focus, and added the ability to add your Sense Motive check to Parry checks, since I wanted to justify the Sense Motive requirement.

[Thrawn183]

I didn't catch that Opportunistic Strike only works on AoO's at first. I was a little boggled.

Once I realized how many AoO's you spend to use your abilities... this looks really good!

My only concern is the increase on threat range that gets it down to 13-20. Possibly threatening on 40% of attacks is impressive, but I'm concerned about weapon special abilities that only trigger on a critical. This makes them much more useful. And if anyone is going to be able to confirm the criticals, it would be this class because you're not power attacking (presumably) and all your AoO's are made at your highest attack bonus. Just something to keep in mind when looking at how gear interacts with the PrC.

I like it overall though. Very well done!

[Altair_the_Vexed]

OK, I think she's just about done. Remaining questions:
Pre-reqs?...snip...
I can't help feeling that getting into a dual-wielding class without being any good at dual wielding seems a bit odd. I think at least Two Weapon Fighting should be in the prerequisites.

Aside from that, this seems to be a good PrC.

[PId6]

This looks like a very fun class. It's indeed a lot of abilities, but none of them are that powerful, and they're all flavorful enough to deserve a spot. A few thoughts:


Why Two Weapon Defense? That's a really terrible feat and should belong on the list after Greater Two Weapon Fighting, if at all. Right now, the most optimal thing would be to not take Two Weapon Fighting before taking this class so you can skip Two Weapon Defense.
Are the number of Attacks of Opportunities reset at the beginning of each round or when it's your turn again?
This class has some great control abilities, but a source of actual damage would be needed. A rogue would love the flat-footing abilities, but the lack of sneak attack progression hurts badly. A feat like Daring Outlaw would be nice to have here, otherwise the damage is way too low.
Power Attack with rapiers seems the most viable way to get damage right now, which somewhat goes against the idea of a light, precise swordsman. Not sure if that's intended.
Also, the most optimal route for a Fighter going into this would be to wear heavy armor. Again, not sure if that's intended.

These are just some initial thoughts.

[DragoonWraith]

I didn't catch that Opportunistic Strike only works on AoO's at first. I was a little boggled.

Once I realized how many AoO's you spend to use your abilities... this looks really good!
[...]
I like it overall though. Very well done!
Sweet! Glad to hear it!


My only concern is the increase on threat range that gets it down to 13-20. Possibly threatening on 40% of attacks is impressive, but I'm concerned about weapon special abilities that only trigger on a critical. This makes them much more useful. And if anyone is going to be able to confirm the criticals, it would be this class because you're not power attacking (presumably) and all your AoO's are made at your highest attack bonus. Just something to keep in mind when looking at how gear interacts with the PrC.
True, but those abilities are vastly sub-par anyway. I don't hold with the "criticals aren't special if you can do them too often" line of thinking, and I firmly believe that Improved Critical and Keen should stack (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html), for example. Critical-focused builds are strictly inferior to Power Attack builds. While if Improved Critical and Keen did stack, I'd be wary about those abilities, as it stands I do not think it would be.


I can't help feeling that getting into a dual-wielding class without being any good at dual wielding seems a bit odd. I think at least Two Weapon Fighting should be in the prerequisites.

Aside from that, this seems to be a good PrC.
Hmm. Before, I would have said that there wasn't room for it, but with the Rapier-ness out, Weapon Finesse makes less sense... hmm.


This looks like a very fun class. It's indeed a lot of abilities, but none of them are that powerful, and they're all flavorful enough to deserve a spot. A few thoughts:
Sweet, glad you think so.


Why Two Weapon Defense? That's a really terrible feat and should belong on the list after Greater Two Weapon Fighting, if at all. Right now, the most optimal thing would be to not take Two Weapon Fighting before taking this class so you can skip Two Weapon Defense.
Hmm. Hadn't really considered it that way; those feats were chosen for a thematic reason. TWD fits this class rather well, don't you think?

Hmm. Maybe I'll make TWF a requirement, and give TWD as a bonus feat. Sure, it's weak, but it's a bonus feat.


Are the number of Attacks of Opportunities reset at the beginning of each round or when it's your turn again?
Yes, as they usually are. I've changed nothing about that mechanic.


This class has some great control abilities, but a source of actual damage would be needed. A rogue would love the flat-footing abilities, but the lack of sneak attack progression hurts badly. A feat like Daring Outlaw would be nice to have here, otherwise the damage is way too low.
Opportunistic Strike?


Power Attack with rapiers seems the most viable way to get damage right now, which somewhat goes against the idea of a light, precise swordsman. Not sure if that's intended.
You can't make Power Attacks for an Attack of Opportunity; with this class you want to be attacking with AoO's as much as possible.


Also, the most optimal route for a Fighter going into this would be to wear heavy armor. Again, not sure if that's intended.
Considering that this build relies heavily on Dexterity, I don't think that's the case...

EDIT: OK, so I've changed the requirements to allow entry with TWF instead of Weapon Finesse, since Weapon Finesse may or may not make any sense to your build - before you get into the class, anyway.

But now I'm worried about one level dips. You get two free feats (one of which a lot of players will want), plus two special abilities. That's rather good. As in a lot good. Thoughts on this?

EDIT: Alright, I think I'm happy with that. I removed the Two Weapon Defense and Stand Still bonus feats - the latter is still heavily recommended for this character, but you can get it yourself. I moved Opposition to second level, so now you just get a single bonus feat and +3 Opportunistic Strike for a one level dip. Maybe worthwhile, but there are other ways to accomplish rather similar things.

Oh, and you get to TWF and Weapon Finesse one-handed weapons (that you have Weapon Focus in). OK, so it's a pretty solid dip, but I think that the rest of the class is interesting enough that people going that route would want to take the whole thing.

[PId6]

Hmm. Hadn't really considered it that way; those feats were chosen for a thematic reason. TWD fits this class rather well, don't you think?

Hmm. Maybe I'll make TWF a requirement, and give TWD as a bonus feat. Sure, it's weak, but it's a bonus feat.
Problem is, this is requiring way too many feats. You need 3 to get in, and you get 1 back. But with TWF already so feat intensive, this gets rather hard for anyone not a fighter. A rogue, for example, have to be human or be able to take flaws to get in at level 5, losing 3 feats in the process. She'd then need to spend 2 more out of 5 for ITWF and GTWF. A few more bonus feats for ITWF and GTWF would be nice at the higher levels, to compensate for this.


Yes, as they usually are. I've changed nothing about that mechanic.
Then wouldn't En Garde be completely useless for the entire battle if you roll low on initiative and go after everyone else? Then again, I suppose you can delay until you get to go first next round.


Opportunistic Strike?
Does very little damage at high levels. For high level melee, damage comes from making full attacks with huge bonus damage. Cutting something once per round at +15 doesn't really mean much, and you don't even get this bonus on full-attacks. That's why Power Attack is so important for all non-ToB fighting types. Consider that the warblade's Strike of Perfect Clarity maneuver deals 100 bonus damage on a single standard attack, and even that's usually not preferable to a full attack at high levels.


You can't make Power Attacks for an Attack of Opportunity; with this class you want to be attacking with AoO's as much as possible.
That's just it; AoOs don't deal enough damage to matter. A CR 17 very old white dragon has 337 hp. A CR 17 frost giant Jarl has 231 hp. A CR 18 nightcrawler has 212 hp. A CR 18 very old black dragon has 350 hp. Dealing one hit per round at 30-some damage counts for nothing more than a scratch; you need to do a lot more than just AoOs if you want to be able to damage things.


Considering that this build relies heavily on Dexterity, I don't think that's the case...
With 18 Dex, for example, a mithril full plate grants 8 AC and 3 max Dex, which is 11 total AC. A chain shirt, on the other hand, only gives 8. Raise your Dex to 22, and it gets better, but mithril chain shirt still only gives a total AC of 10. You'd need really high Dex to make light armors more worthwhile, and I'm sure there are more ways to raise the Dex limit.


But now I'm worried about one level dips. You get two free feats (one of which a lot of players will want), plus two special abilities. That's rather good. As in a lot good. Thoughts on this?
You've too many prerequisites to just casually dip it. I would add Oversized TWF back since you're already requiring 3 feats.


EDIT: Alright, I think I'm happy with that. I removed the Two Weapon Defense and Stand Still bonus feats - the latter is still heavily recommended for this character, but you can get it yourself. I moved Opposition to second level, so now you just get a single bonus feat and +3 Opportunistic Strike for a one level dip. Maybe worthwhile, but there are other ways to accomplish rather similar things.
Again, since Stand Still is so important, the feat-deficit problem just becomes worse. Like I said, with so many required feats, it's not so great a dip. Besides, most DMs wouldn't allow you to take a homebrew class just for dipping purposes.

[Harperfan7]

Opposition: Does using this ability allow you to make attacks with the weapon you are using this ability with?

Attaque au Fer: Does this ability provoke an AoO? They are flat-footed, but what if they have combat reflexes? Why does the dualist gain a +2 on her next attack for failing?

Are Dualist levels counted as rogue levels when figuring whether or not someone's uncanny/improved uncanny dodge ability functions?

[Gorgondantess]

I agree with PI on this one. Way to feat intensive; give combat reflexes as a bonus, not as a prereq. Then maybe another feat. With a feat intensive Prerequisite, it's usually a powerful class. This is, while cool, not really awesomely powerful.

[DragoonWraith]

I'm inclined more inclined to remove Weapon Focus and grant that as a bonus feat than I am to remove Combat Reflexes. Combat Reflexes is pretty core to what this character does.


Problem is, this is requiring way too many feats. You need 3 to get in, and you get 1 back. But with TWF already so feat intensive, this gets rather hard for anyone not a fighter. A rogue, for example, have to be human or be able to take flaws to get in at level 5, losing 3 feats in the process. She'd then need to spend 2 more out of 5 for ITWF and GTWF. A few more bonus feats for ITWF and GTWF would be nice at the higher levels, to compensate for this.
Hmm. Well, I gave her Weapon Focus for free; ITWF/GTWF are perhaps less crucial to this build than other TWF builds, at least if played as I intend, but that's a thought...


Then wouldn't En Garde be completely useless for the entire battle if you roll low on initiative and go after everyone else? Then again, I suppose you can delay until you get to go first next round.
Hmm, I assumed you would just keep them until your next turn. I'm pretty sure that's how AoOs usually work (though now I'm doubting myself).


Does very little damage at high levels. For high level melee, damage comes from making full attacks with huge bonus damage. Cutting something once per round at +15 doesn't really mean much, and you don't even get this bonus on full-attacks. That's why Power Attack is so important for all non-ToB fighting types. Consider that the warblade's Strike of Perfect Clarity maneuver deals 100 bonus damage on a single standard attack, and even that's usually not preferable to a full attack at high levels.
Well, the idea is that she should be getting as many or more AoOs per round as she would get attacks in a full attack, so +15 x 6 or more is something. Moreover, her critical hit chance is 40%, and she gets a x3, if she's using rapiers - +45 on an attack is better than a full SA Rogue could do.

However, I realize she's not reaching the point where she's getting enough AoOs to be effective. Added the ability to double her AoOs per round, which should help. Also allow her to Parry for allies.

Now she gets 2 AoOs every time someone attacks her, attacks someone next to her, or tries to move away from her (or when she moves away from them, for that matter!). That's not inconsiderable. Also, you could do a Charger-ish build around Fleche, since I decided to count those attacks as AoOs, too. Though that does make Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian the obviously best choice for entry, and that seems decidedly odd for this class. But that's D&D's fault for making Pounce otherwise so difficult to come by. Should just be a feat, really...


That's just it; AoOs don't deal enough damage to matter. A CR 17 very old white dragon has 337 hp. A CR 17 frost giant Jarl has 231 hp. A CR 18 nightcrawler has 212 hp. A CR 18 very old black dragon has 350 hp. Dealing one hit per round at 30-some damage counts for nothing more than a scratch; you need to do a lot more than just AoOs if you want to be able to damage things.
Or get a lot more than 1 AoO. That's... kinda the point of the class.


With 18 Dex, for example, a mithril full plate grants 8 AC and 3 max Dex, which is 11 total AC. A chain shirt, on the other hand, only gives 8. Raise your Dex to 22, and it gets better, but mithril chain shirt still only gives a total AC of 10. You'd need really high Dex to make light armors more worthwhile, and I'm sure there are more ways to raise the Dex limit.
There are. Fine, that doesn't bother me.


You've too many prerequisites to just casually dip it. I would add Oversized TWF back since you're already requiring 3 feats.
Reduced it to two required feats. How does it stand now?


Again, since Stand Still is so important, the feat-deficit problem just becomes worse. Like I said, with so many required feats, it's not so great a dip. Besides, most DMs wouldn't allow you to take a homebrew class just for dipping purposes.
True, hmm. I'll think about it. I just feel like the levels are really getting very full.


Opposition: Does using this ability allow you to make attacks with the weapon you are using this ability with?
Yes, but doing so removes the -4 penalty on your opponent's attack rolls.


Attaque au Fer: Does this ability provoke an AoO? They are flat-footed, but what if they have combat reflexes? Why does the dualist gain a +2 on her next attack for failing?
Two good questions. Updated that ability.


Are Dualist levels counted as rogue levels when figuring whether or not someone's uncanny/improved uncanny dodge ability functions?
Ooh, hadn't considered that. Yes, I would think so.

OK, so basically, I think this class needs ways to draw more AoOs. Draw them a lot, and limit the degree to which enemies can just ignore you and take you down with magic/arrows. Thoughts on other things one might do to give a dualist an opportunity?

And I'm thinking I'll probably remove some of the features (Attaque au Fer is kind of oddly stuck in there, though I really like it, for example) to make room for these and possibly for bonus feats.

[DragoonWraith]

OK, now by the end of the class, you should be making a lot of attacks of opportunity, as a lot of actions will trigger them and any of those actions happening anywhere near the Dualist will provoke. Thoughts?

Actually, you could really easily do absurd damage with Coup Lance, Parry, Counter, Double Opportunity, and two rather cooperative enemies.

If you move away from an enemy (stop being adjacent), you gain a Coup Lance opportunity. If you move into an enemy's threatened area, they get an AoO - which you can parry, counter, and double. If two enemies are 10 feet apart, and you go back and forth between them, you could do three attacks for every five feet that you move (costs 5 AoOs each time), plus one more on the last move (Doubling Coup Lance the last time). With a 30' move speed and a double-move action, that's 18 attacks on the one you start next to and 19 on the other one. Coming up with 60 AoOs is probably impossible, but you just got far more attacks than a full-attack, for a double-move action. A single move action would get 9 and 10 attacks, and cost 30 AoOs, which might be attainable if you get ridiculous. Someone who focuses on Dex (18 to start, +2 race, every ability increase in Dex, and a +3 Dex item), and has at least 16 BAB and TWF/ITWF/GTWF, would have 23 AoOs in a round if they used En Garde, allowing 6 and 7 attacks; 13 is much higher than the 7 they'd get in a full attack, plus they've only used a Move action, with 10' to spare to position themselves, if they want.

Still, using Coup Lance that way seems... odd. And it's dependant on the enemies being positioned perfectly, having enough AoOs (Combat Reflexes), and actually using them.

In a more realistic situation (one enemy, who has one AoO), you could take a Move Action and attack six times, using 12 AoOs, while ending up either adjacent, 5' away (actually, you'd only use 11 AoOs in this case), or 10' away. You can still take your Standard Action to attack once more (or do something else), plus you can still have quite a lot of AoOs to throw around during the round. Even if they don't take their AoO, you use 9 AoOs to attack 4 times, and this works starting at level 10 (when a full BAB TWFer gets the same 4 attacks).

Another thing: say, you're level 8. You've got 22 Dex (18 to start, +2 race, +2 from level 4 and 8), for a +6 mod. A full BAB TWFer (4 attacks) full-attacks you. You could potentially Parry all four and attack twice yourself, with the +6 damage to each. A +2 or +3 Dex item gives you another Counter, and a +4 means you could counter all four attacks. Getting four attacks and taking no damage from someone else's full-attack? That's... pretty strong. Next level, you can use En Garde and you get Double Opportunity. Someone full-attacks you when you have a +8 Dex modifier and the same 4 attacks, for 12 AoOs - that's enough to parry and counter and double every one of their attacks. A guy spent his turn getting hit twice as much as he could have hit you, while you're unscathed? That strikes me as quite possibly overpowered...

[PId6]

Hmm. Well, I gave her Weapon Focus for free; ITWF/GTWF are perhaps less crucial to this build than other TWF builds, at least if played as I intend, but that's a thought...
Actually, you probably need them more since you're trying to get all the AoOs you can have.


Hmm, I assumed you would just keep them until your next turn. I'm pretty sure that's how AoOs usually work (though now I'm doubting myself).
Doesn't really matter, I guess. It just says you can make one per round, so it can be read either way. The interpretation that AoOs "refresh" on your turn seems more reasonable though.


However, I realize she's not reaching the point where she's getting enough AoOs to be effective. Added the ability to double her AoOs per round, which should help. Also allow her to Parry for allies.
Can you use Doubled Opportunity to keep chaining more AoOs from a single trigger? RAW, you can, but I'm not sure it's intended. Either way, it's not too bad considering each successive AoO receives another -5.


Now she gets 2 AoOs every time someone attacks her, attacks someone next to her, or tries to move away from her (or when she moves away from them, for that matter!). That's not inconsiderable.
Assuming you actually succeed on the Parries and assuming anyone would actually decide to move away (if they learn that you can attack them when they move away, they'll probably stop).


Or get a lot more than 1 AoO. That's... kinda the point of the class.
The only consistent source of AoOs from an intelligent enemy on their turn would be from Counter Attacks, which is reliant on the roll of the dice for Parry. You can force yourself to make AoOs on your turn (Coup Lance or Fleche) but that leaves yourself open to attacks on your opponent's turn if you run out of AoOs. Doubled Opportunity mitigates this a lot though.


Reduced it to two required feats. How does it stand now?
Hmm, with only 2 prereqs and those bonus feats, you only need to spend 3 feats overall, plus possibly an additional for Stand Still and another one for Oversized Two Weapon Fighting if you want to dual-wield rapiers. Not bad, actually, I think this works.

Okay, some calculations:

Assume average Dex-based fighter 5/dualist 10. Start with 18 Dex (shouldn't assume +Dex race) + 3 (levels) + 4 (enhancement), giving a total of 25 Dex, or +7 Dex modifier. You also get +15 BAB, +3 enhancement (Greater Magic Weapon), and +1 weapon focus, giving a total of +26 attack, give or take a few.

A CR 18 very old black dragon has +28 attack. A CR 17 marilith has +25 attack. A CR 17 frost giant jarl has +30 attack. So pulling off a Parry is far from a sure thing and failure means you've wasted an AoO and you take damage. I suppose Opposition would make it easier but that only works if the opponent is using a weapon (and I'm guessing only one of the opponent's weapons if they have more than one?). Remise also helps, but that's extremely AoO-expensive to do.

I didn't realize Coup Lance can be used if the dualist herself is moving away, so that makes it a bit better, but you'd have to do that on your turn and it costs 2 AoOs per use, so you're leaving yourself open to reprisals on your opponent's turn when you're out of AoOs and can't Parry.

With Double Opportunity, I guess you can pull off a good amount of damage, depending on circumstances. This is great against a single enemy, but having multiple enemies makes things much harder to control. Overall, I don't think it's overpowered by any means, but I guess it's not too underpowered either, depending on circumstances. With the unique mechanics, it's a bit difficult to judge without actual playtesting.

[DragoonWraith]

Actually, you probably need them more since you're trying to get all the AoOs you can have.
Well, I think that would depend on your opponents somewhat. You may find that you don't need another 2.


Doesn't really matter, I guess. It just says you can make one per round, so it can be read either way. The interpretation that AoOs "refresh" on your turn seems more reasonable though.
Yeah. I can spell it out, I suppose.


Can you use Doubled Opportunity to keep chaining more AoOs from a single trigger? RAW, you can, but I'm not sure it's intended. Either way, it's not too bad considering each successive AoO receives another -5.
Was not intentional, and I don't think I want it to. It would turn every AoO into something like a full-attack, which is a bit silly.


Assuming you actually succeed on the Parries and assuming anyone would actually decide to move away (if they learn that you can attack them when they move away, they'll probably stop).
On some level, this character is designed to make enemies stop doing a lot of things. If they can't move, can't cast, can't attack, anywhere within half her move range, without provoking AoOs, that's pretty significant.


The only consistent source of AoOs from an intelligent enemy on their turn would be from Counter Attacks, which is reliant on the roll of the dice for Parry. You can force yourself to make AoOs on your turn (Coup Lance or Fleche) but that leaves yourself open to attacks on your opponent's turn if you run out of AoOs. Doubled Opportunity mitigates this a lot though.
Yeah, but it doesn't really leave you any more open than your average TWFer. I think that much is OK.


Hmm, with only 2 prereqs and those bonus feats, you only need to spend 3 feats overall, plus possibly an additional for Stand Still and another one for Oversized Two Weapon Fighting if you want to dual-wield rapiers. Not bad, actually, I think this works.
You don't need Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. Dualism allows you to TWF and Finesse any one-handed weapon you have Weapon Focus in. Since you get a free Weapon Focus in a one-handed weapon, there will always be at least one 1h weapon type that you can fight with.


Okay, some calculations:

Assume average Dex-based fighter 5/dualist 10. Start with 18 Dex (shouldn't assume +Dex race) + 3 (levels) + 4 (enhancement), giving a total of 25 Dex, or +7 Dex modifier. You also get +15 BAB, +3 enhancement (Greater Magic Weapon), and +1 weapon focus, giving a total of +26 attack, give or take a few.

A CR 18 very old black dragon has +28 attack. A CR 17 marilith has +25 attack. A CR 17 frost giant jarl has +30 attack. So pulling off a Parry is far from a sure thing and failure means you've wasted an AoO and you take damage. I suppose Opposition would make it easier but that only works if the opponent is using a weapon (and I'm guessing only one of the opponent's weapons if they have more than one?). Remise also helps, but that's extremely AoO-expensive to do.
Agreed. I'm considering adding some kind of bonus to the Parry roll, to mitigate that somewhat. Rogues are especially hurt by it.

Alternatively, perhaps add an effect to Dual Weapon Specialization that creates extra bonuses to Parry rolls for taking Weapon Focus/Specialization feats.

Though Combat Understanding could potentially add a lot to your Parry roll, if you wanted to go that route.


I didn't realize Coup Lance can be used if the dualist herself is moving away, so that makes it a bit better, but you'd have to do that on your turn and it costs 2 AoOs per use, so you're leaving yourself open to reprisals on your opponent's turn when you're out of AoOs and can't Parry.
Yeah, it wasn't really intentional but I realized you could, and it doesn't seem imbalanced. But moving back and forth seems really silly... Not really sure.

Another thing is that you could Fleche past several opponents, hitting each with Coup Lance, and then hitting the last guy, and if you've got Pounce, hit him a lot.

Also, as it currently stands, you could En Garde and Fleche in the same round once you hit 10. Even if you don't have GTWF or 16 BAB yet, that's 15 AoOs, plus whatever Dex gives you... 21 once you do have those things.


With Double Opportunity, I guess you can pull off a good amount of damage, depending on circumstances. This is great against a single enemy, but having multiple enemies makes things much harder to control. Overall, I don't think it's overpowered by any means, but I guess it's not too underpowered either, depending on circumstances. With the unique mechanics, it's a bit difficult to judge without actual playtesting.
Once you get Cover Ground, you should be able to move in between enemies pretty easily. The class is certainly mobile.

But yeah, I agree, I think it'd need playtesting. Not sure when I'll get an opportunity to really do that; PbP combat is slow and difficult to use for this, I think.

[DragoonWraith]

I feel bad bumping this again, but I really would like some input on this class as it stands. Especially the things I brought up in my last two posts; I'm not sure I want the class working that way (especially Coup Lance), but it may be difficult for a dualist to 'force' AoOs otherwise. Thoughts?

[PId6]

I feel bad bumping this again, but I really would like some input on this class as it stands. Especially the things I brought up in my last two posts; I'm not sure I want the class working that way (especially Coup Lance), but it may be difficult for a dualist to 'force' AoOs otherwise. Thoughts?
Looking at it now, I think you don't really need to force anymore AoOs. Moving away triggers an AoO. Attacking has a decent chance of triggering an AoO. Get the Mage Slayer feat and casting always triggers AoO. Even Tumbling is negated by Coup Lance. I suppose an enemy could just do nothing to stall you out, but otherwise the lockdown aspect is fine already.

I'm wondering of a build using this and the Stormguard Warrior feat from Tome of Battle. With that feat, every time you refrain from an AoO, you get a +4 bonus to attack and damage next round. You can probably get some major damage combination using these two together (probably alongside Power Attack).

[Harperfan7]

Ok, I've reread the whole class. Here's my final thoughts -

Fleche is too easy, make fleche provoke an Aoo or make the Dualist have to pass a DC 25 tumble check.

Coup Lance provoking an Aoo from the Dualist against her enemy because the Dualist moved away - doesn't make sense to me.

Cover ground is a little fuzzy. Does anybody within range provoke Aoo's as if they were adjacent to the dualist? Can the dualist use this more than once per round?

Make parrying two handed weapons harder (like -4 to the Dualists parry roll) and make larger creatures harder to parry (grapple size mod). Why? Because it should be much harder to parry such a large and heavy weapon (but not easier to parry a smaller weapon, because they are small and quick). This wouldn't
negate a large creatures -1 to attacks - the weapon is an easier target (so a large creature using a one handed weapon would be a net 3 points harder to parry).

Mods parrying a two handed weapon = -4 parry roll
parrying a large creatures weapon = -4 parry roll
-large creatures claw = -0 (equivalent to a med creatures one handed weapon)
parrying a hude creatures greatsword = -12 parry roll
-huge creatures claw = -4 parry roll
nothing for small creatures or light weapons
parrying a power attacking creature = -1 per point of power attack

so, parrying a full-power attacking storm giants greatsword = -17 parry roll

With a decent sense motive check, and remise, this isn't really much of a problem for a dualist, just more expensive.

If you do this, move combat understanding to 2nd level, and maybe move cover ground or remise to 7th.

Otherwise, I think this class is fine. It's the perfect dex-based fighter. (Congrats! You've made Drizzt a mechanically viable character!)

[DragoonWraith]

Ok, I've reread the whole class. Here's my final thoughts -
Thanks!


Fleche is too easy, make fleche provoke an Aoo or make the Dualist have to pass a DC 25 tumble check.
Good idea, I like the Tumble check.


Coup Lance provoking an Aoo from the Dualist against her enemy because the Dualist moved away - doesn't make sense to me.
I agree, it doesn't really make sense. I'm divided on that, though, because I worry that people will be able to just ignore the dualist if she can't force AoOs...


Cover ground is a little fuzzy. Does anybody within range provoke Aoo's as if they were adjacent to the dualist? Can the dualist use this more than once per round?
Yes, except that it does not allow Double Opportunity. And yes, as often as you have AoOs for it.


Make parrying two handed weapons harder (like -4 to the Dualists parry roll) and make larger creatures harder to parry (grapple size mod). Why? Because it should be much harder to parry such a large and heavy weapon (but not easier to parry a smaller weapon, because they are small and quick). This wouldn't
negate a large creatures -1 to attacks - the weapon is an easier target (so a large creature using a one handed weapon would be a net 3 points harder to parry).
This... I'm unsure of. Being able to parry reliably is important for the class. Yes, it makes sense from a simulationalist perspective, but if the dualist can't parry she's in a lot of trouble.

If I did this, I think I'd give Parry a bonus and remove that for two-handed weapons, instead.


Mods parrying a two handed weapon = -4 parry roll
parrying a large creatures weapon = -4 parry roll
-large creatures claw = -0 (equivalent to a med creatures one handed weapon)
parrying a hude creatures greatsword = -12 parry roll
-huge creatures claw = -4 parry roll
nothing for small creatures or light weapons
parrying a power attacking creature = -1 per point of power attack

so, parrying a full-power attacking storm giants greatsword = -17 parry roll

With a decent sense motive check, and remise, this isn't really much of a problem for a dualist, just more expensive.

If you do this, move combat understanding to 2nd level, and maybe move cover ground or remise to 7th.
Hmm. Perhaps. I'll look at it, try to figure out how the number of AoOs available/used work out.


Otherwise, I think this class is fine. It's the perfect dex-based fighter. (Congrats! You've made Drizzt a mechanically viable character!)
Woot! Definitely think it needs some work, though. Really, I need someone IRL to play test it with, but that's not likely to happen.

[DragoonWraith]

Looking at it now, I think you don't really need to force anymore AoOs. Moving away triggers an AoO. Attacking has a decent chance of triggering an AoO. Get the Mage Slayer feat and casting always triggers AoO. Even Tumbling is negated by Coup Lance. I suppose an enemy could just do nothing to stall you out, but otherwise the lockdown aspect is fine already.
Yeah, locking down the enemy will be just fine, as long as the dualist can get amongst the enemy. Snipers and flyers are problems as ever.


I'm wondering of a build using this and the Stormguard Warrior feat from Tome of Battle. With that feat, every time you refrain from an AoO, you get a +4 bonus to attack and damage next round. You can probably get some major damage combination using these two together (probably alongside Power Attack).
I don't know... I'm pretty sure that any dualist would do more damage by simply taking the AoO than not. So it'd be only useful if the target's AC was an issue and you needed the attack roll bonus.

[Harperfan7]

Okay, here's some crunch...

Fire Giant CR 10
Greatsword +20

vs. Parry = Greatsword +28 (+29-33 if power attacking)


level 10 dualist (fighter 5/dualist 4 or rogue 5/dualist 4)
bab +7/+9
20 dex (15 base, +1 level, +4 item)
12 wis (that's where I would put my 12-13)
weapon focus
+3 weapon (reasonable)
+8/+14 sense motive (assuming full ranks, but no miscellaneous)

parry roll +25-31ish

So, even with the penalties, it's still roughly even.
Dualist has 6 Aoo's, 9 with engarde. Fire giant has 3 attacks. So, with combat understanding and engarde, that's 3 counterattacks.


Normally...


+16/18 parry roll (with 3-6 counter attacks)

vs.

+15-20 attack

So, I guess the chances didn't really change with my suggestion and considering that at that level, the dualist isn't doing much damage - it would take several rounds of solid hits to bring down a fire giant, whereas one solid hit from the giant might drop the dualist (especially with PA). Yeah, that's not going to work for a melee character.

Why I didn't do this beforehand, I don't know...

[DragoonWraith]

The way I see things, a TWFer gets 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 attacks per round, depending on level. Maybe plus an AoO or two. As a Rogue, they add Xd6 to each. As a Dualist, they add 3*X to each attack, avoid damage, and could quite possibly get as many AoOs as the Rogue gets attacks in a Full-Attack. I've been trying to balance the damage around the Rogue, but I keep getting told that the damage is low.

I'm missing something here. What should I be comparing the damage to?

[PId6]

The way I see things, a TWFer gets 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 attacks per round, depending on level. Maybe plus an AoO or two. As a Rogue, they add Xd6 to each. As a Dualist, they add 3*X to each attack, avoid damage, and could quite possibly get as many AoOs as the Rogue gets attacks in a Full-Attack. I've been trying to balance the damage around the Rogue, but I keep getting told that the damage is low.

I'm missing something here. What should I be comparing the damage to?
A pure rogue is a decent comparison point for core, but once you add in all the splatbooks, that's no longer true. I suppose the best comparison would be a well-built warblade or something like that. That said, I think this probably does enough damage.

However, if that's not enough, I think the Stormguard Warrior approach would be fun to try. If you can get, say, 10 AoOs in one round, and refrain from them using Stormguard Warrior, you'd get +40 attack and damage for the next round. Full Power Attack and that becomes +20 attack +60 damage per hit. If you drop one of your weapons and use your remaining one as a two-hander, that becomes +20 attack +80 damage per hit. Full attack for +40/+40/+35/+30/+25 and that becomes scary amounts of damage. Mostly a curiosity, but pretty cool nonetheless.

If you need to playtest this class, I can help. Either MSN or just scheduled PBP is fine. I'm not sure what type of conditions is necessary to adequately judge, though. Single monster? Multiples? Alone? As part of a party? Balance is always a tricky issue.

[Harperfan7]

I think their damage is fine. I was saying that my suggestion weakened them too much. They are just fine the way they are.

[DragoonWraith]

OK, I don't really feel like she's done; something about the class just isn't working for me at the moment. Mostly, it's that I look at this and say "these features would be really cool at 7-10-ish, but at 15 I'd want a bit more than being able to run around and parry stuff". I'm actually considering cutting out a bunch of abilities, and making it a 5 level class. Parry, Counter, Coup Lance, and Cover Ground, I think, are the most important abilities of the class right now. Thoughts?

Also, the class now has a Wiki page (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Dualist). If you look on the bottom, I've got a possible 5-level version there.

[DragoonWraith]

I'd still love input on this class, if there's any to be had. Thanks.