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MichielHagen
2009-08-07, 11:22 AM
I like the Warlock mechanic, and i would like to make a sorceror kind of class that uses something similar. I am trying to convert the normal sorceror spells into "invocations".
Note that i do not want to use the normal 4 levels of invocations, but the traditional 9 levels. The sorceror will have less "spells" known (around half)

Obviously the normal duration of the spell (which will be converted to 24 hours) is of importance. Also some spells with multiple targets will be changed to "self only". I am mostly having trouble with spells that are instantenious.

At what level (1-9) would you rank a:
unlimited fireball
unlimited fly (self only)
unlimited dimension door (self only)
unlimited dimension door (multiple targets as spell)

i can give more examples, but feel free to do so yourself :D

thanks for your help

<edit> i forgot to note that because the class will only get half the spells, the spells should be twice as valuable.
Ask yourself the question "would i trade unlimited fireball for 2 of my 'x'-th level spells?"

Strawman
2009-08-07, 01:50 PM
Unlimited fireball? Like, cast fireball every turn for eight hours unlimited? Level 9. That makes someone a one person army.

Unlimited fly would be between 4 and 7. It's no more gamebreaking than a flying creature.

Unlimited Dimension Door (self) would be at least 5, and multiple targets would be 8 or 9.

At least, that's what I figure.

deuxhero
2009-08-07, 02:37 PM
Aren't fell flight and flee the scenes already invocations? If they are not banned left and right, it should be a good indication they are not really that bad for the game.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-07, 04:25 PM
I think your estimates are a bit off.


Unlimited fireball? Like, cast fireball every turn for eight hours unlimited? Level 9. That makes someone a one person army.

You can already do an eldritch cone at will as a 5th-level equivalent.


Unlimited fly would be between 4 and 7. It's no more gamebreaking than a flying creature.

Fell flight is 3rd.


Unlimited Dimension Door (self) would be at least 5, and multiple targets would be 8 or 9.

Flee the scene is 4th, self-only.

------------------------------------

This illustrates part of the at-will problem. Anyone seeing at-will AoE damage or teleportation or whatever vastly overestimates its effects because it's assumed that people are essentially getting 14,400 spell slots to use it once per round, all day. The truth is that you don't need unlimited AoEs, as they'll either be immune or you'll only need to use it 3-5 times each combat; you don't need unlimited short-range teleportation unless you're hopping around randomly for the heck of it.

At-wills should be valued at the same level as regular spells the vast majority of the time; you'll note most of the warlock's invocations don't change levels unless they receive a boost beyond the original spell. Now, this doesn't apply to all spells, but most don't need more than a 1- or 2-level boost, not 4 or 5 levels.

Strawman
2009-08-07, 04:58 PM
Oh, okay. I'm not very good at judging balance in 4E.

DracoDei
2009-08-07, 05:11 PM
Yes, but this isn't 4E as far as I know...

Strawman
2009-08-07, 05:16 PM
:smalleek: I got confused by the term at-will in Lost's comment.
... perhaps I'll just stay out of this thead...

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-07, 06:09 PM
:smalleek: I got confused by the term at-will in Lost's comment.
... perhaps I'll just stay out of this thead...

No need to stay out. Just remember: At-Will is a mechanical term for 4e. However, at-will (without the capitalization) is just plain English meaning "whenever." So the confusion is easy at first glance. You're excused. :smallbiggrin:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-07, 08:09 PM
No need to stay out. Just remember: At-Will is a mechanical term for 4e. However, at-will (without the capitalization) is just plain English meaning "whenever." So the confusion is easy at first glance. You're excused. :smallbiggrin:

Precisely; at-will was a very respectable mechanic in 3e with the warlock, the binder, the dragonfire adept--the list goes on--before 4e made everyone think it was the only game with at-wills, and it's doing the same with other terms. Why, back in my day, "encounter" was a combat, not some type of new-fangled power whatsit...*grumble grumble*

More seriously, 4e has at-wills pretty much because of the 3e warlock. They put it out to test the waters, people liked it, voila, 4e at-wills, just as with ToB and encounter powers.

lvl 1 fighter
2009-08-07, 11:45 PM
Note that i do not want to use the normal 4 levels of invocations, but the traditional 9 levels. The sorceror will have less "spells" known (around half)


Using the 4 levels of Invocations is a good way to measure the relative power level of this new class against the Warlock.

A typical Warlock will have 3 Least Invocations, 3 Lesser, 3 Greater, and 3 Dark.

Each grade of Invocation typically duplicate spells of certain levels. There are exceptions but if you look at the spell effects duplicated they tend to be grouped like this:

Least: 1st & 2nd level spells
Lesser: 3rd & 4th level spells
Greater: 5th & 6th level spells
Dark: 7th, 8th, & 9th level spells

This is a list of how many Invocations per level this class would get in your system (half of the Sorcerers spells known)

1st: 2.5
2nd: 2.5
3rd: 2
4th: 2
5th: 2
6th: 1.5
7th: 1.5
8th: 1.5
9th: 1.5

The halves aren't important as they will be combined when we group them according to how the Invocations are graded.

Least Invocations: 5 known
Lesser Invocations: 4 known
Greater Invocations: 3 or 4 known
Dark Invocations: 3 or 4 known

Even though the Invocations won't be used in the Grade format, placing them there let's us easily compare the two classes. From the number of Invocations known alone, this class outperforms the Warlock. Which may not be a bad thing. Perhaps this class doesn't have an Eldritch Blast equivalent to balance the power level between the classes.

I like the idea.

waterpenguin43
2009-08-08, 11:16 AM
An interesting invocation I thought of is this:
Procan's wrath(Greater invocation): You create an airborne whirlpool covered in lime electricity that fills 40 ft, anyone sucked into it (or touches it) takes 10d6 electricity damage (reflex half) and must make a reflex save or swim check or be sucked to a random plane:
d%
1-50: The plane of water
51-100: Limbo
Every round you can move the whirlpool 5 ft per 3/caster levels. It lasts for 1 round per 2 warlock levels.
I hope you like it.
Note: This is for 3.5 edition, I made it like that.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-09, 07:46 AM
Cool idea.
My suggestions: Halve the spells known, keep most spells at roughly the same level, maybe take away the familiar or replace it, and add any adjustments you add to your wizards. There! Voila!

Gnaritas
2010-02-10, 08:30 AM
Sorry to bring up an old thread, but with this idea i have come up with some conversions:

Some spells are home made.
Spells with a lvl behind them are replacable. If you have the Ice Ray [lvl 1] and if you take Ice Ray [lvl 2] at the next level up, you can replace Ice Ray [lvl 1] with a different lvl 1 invocation/spell.

I have only started on the 1st 4 spell levels, since my characters are only level 6 at this moment. I would like to introduce this Warlock spinoff as an interesting options for them.

Ice Ray can be converted to Fire Ray, Electricity Ray, Acid Ray, Force Ray (1d4's) same for the Ice Blasts.
The Bull's Strength spells are available in the other 5 ability scores as well.

I am looking for more ideas on spells (simple spells, which can almost be written in one line).
Also i would like to receive comment if any of the below spells are not in the right spell level according to you.
(reminder, a 1st level spell in this list which can be cast infinite (on self) should be about the equal of 2 normal 1st level spells).

I will allow the players to come up with their own ideas, but i want a good base selection.

level 1
Ice Ray [lvl 1] (Ranged touch attack, 30 ft, 1d6 cold damage)
Resistance [lvl 1] (+1 resistance bonus to saves, 24 hrs)
Mage Armor (as spell, 24 hrs)
Darkvision (as spell, 24 hrs)
Detect & Read Magic (as spells, 24 hrs)
Daze (as spell, but no HD max and half the targets HD, rounded up, is added to its saving throw)

level 2
Ice Ray [lvl 2] (Ranged touch attack, 40 ft, 2d6 cold damage)
Ice Blast [lvl 2] (20 ft radius, 100 ft, 1d6 cold damage, reflex)
Resistance [lvl 2] (+2 resistance bonus to saves, 24 hrs)
Greater Mage Armor (+6 Armor AC, 24 hrs)
Shield (as spell, 24 hrs)
See invisibility (as spell, 24 hrs)
Comprehend Languages
& Tongues (as spells, 24 hrs)
Detect Thoughts (as spell, 24 hrs)
Elemental protection (Endure elements and resist 5 all elements, 24 hrs)
Minor Bullís Strength (as spell, only +2 bonus, 24 hrs)

level 3
Ice Ray [lvl 3] (Ranged touch attack, 60 ft, 3d6 cold damage)
Ice Blast [lvl 3] (20 ft radius, 120 ft, 2d6 cold damage, reflex)
Resistance [lvl 3] (+3 resistance bonus to saves, 24 hrs)
Superior Mage Armor (+8 Armor AC, 24 hrs)
Invisibility (as spell, 24 hrs)
Fly (as spell, 24 hrs)
Dimension Door [lvl 3](as spell, but 80 ft)
Bullís Strength (as spell, 24 hrs)

level 4
Ice Ray [lvl 4] (Ranged touch attack, 90 ft, 2x2d6 cold damage)
Ice Blast [lvl 4] (20 ft radius, 150 ft, 3d6 cold damage, reflex)
Resistance [lvl 4] (+4 resistance bonus to saves, 24 hrs)
Dimension Door [lvl 4](as spell, but 40 ft, cast as a move action)

Kensen
2010-02-11, 06:23 AM
Interesting ideas. I like playing a dragonfire adept, but I think they have too few invocation options. I'd like to see a class without the unnecessary and silly DR/magic, etc. but with more invocations.

A simple way to do it would be to combine the invocation lists of the warlock and dragonfire adept (and add a few new ones) and allow the character to pick more invocations, perhaps as many as 1/level. By level 20, the character would have 5 invocations of each degree. As a bonus on level 1 they can pick a ray or orb invocation (or perhaps one like Magic Missile) that can be used at will.

To balance it out, the class would have fewer secondary class features and proficiencies, only one good save, poor BAB, and the same skills as a sorcerer does.