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Myou
2009-08-09, 05:47 AM
A player in my two-man campaign wants to research a spell with the following effect; "When cast, it imbues the target's weapon with force magic, which is unleashed on contact, or dissipitates when the duration expires. It adds some damage to the attack, probably not too much, but the main effect is that it blows people backwards a good distance."

But before allowing it, I wanted to check that there were no existing spells with that effect. If there are, can someone point me to them?

If not, what level would it be, and what would it's statistical effects be?


Edit: Ok, now I'm just looking for help making it a spell. ^^

oxinabox
2009-08-09, 06:05 AM
Sounds similar to a forcefull weapon enchantment.
Pushes target backwards as a power usable 3/day, on hit.
Which was a +2 (or +1?) enchantment IIRC.
From MiC.
You could probably work out a cost from that.
Comparing with the Magic weapon spell to a +1 weapon...

Myou
2009-08-09, 06:32 AM
Sounds similar to a forcefull weapon enchantment.
Pushes target backwards as a power usable 3/day, on hit.
Which was a +2 (or +1?) enchantment IIRC.
From MiC.
You could probably work out a cost from that.
Comparing with the Magic weapon spell to a +1 weapon...

I can't find it in the MiC.

I did find Force, but that's for ranged weapons only and just make them do Force damage.

Adumbration
2009-08-09, 07:11 AM
You know, I could swear that I've seen that kind of spell somewhere, but for the life of me, I can't remember where.

Sorry, I know this isn't very helpful. :smallfrown:

Myou
2009-08-09, 07:14 AM
You know, I could swear that I've seen that kind of spell somewhere, but for the life of me, I can't remember where.

Sorry, I know this isn't very helpful. :smallfrown:

That's quite alright, I'm the same - I could swear I've seen something like this, but I have no idea where or if it was a spell or something else.

I half expect it to have just been the Dungeoncrasher.

AstralFire
2009-08-09, 07:27 AM
I can't find it in the MiC.

I did find Force, but that's for ranged weapons only and just make them do Force damage.

I believe you're looking for Domineering or Knockdown.

Myou
2009-08-09, 08:01 AM
I believe you're looking for Domineering or Knockdown.

Well, there's no Knockdown, but Knockback is the one, thanks!

However, it only knocks the enemy five foot 3 times a day, so I doubt my player wil be happy with that.

Can anyone suggest what that enhancement would be like a a spell?

By the way, I adore your avatar, I've seen you around many times Astral.

Edit: It's a +1 enhancement, swift activation. 3 times a day your next hit that round knocks enemy back 5ft. DC 19 fort to resist, must be able to move back, same or smaller size foes only.

AstralFire
2009-08-09, 08:17 AM
Well, there's no Knockdown, but Knockback is the one, thanks!

However, it only knocks the enemy five foot 3 times a day, so I doubt my player wil be happy with that.

Can anyone suggest what that enhancement would be like a a spell?

Kinetic Weapon [Force]
Evocation
Level: Bard 2, Duskblade 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Touch
Target: Weapon touched
Duration: 1 hour; see text.
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

You imbue a weapon with pure force energy. When a wielder makes a successful attack roll with this weapon, she may discharge the spell and unleash the magical energy as a swift action. Damage dealt by that attack is Force damage, negating any miss chance due to a target's incorporeality as well as bypassing damage reduction, and knocks the target back one square per 4 caster levels (minimum 1).


By the way, I adore your avatar, I've seen you around many times Astral.

Thank you. It's a random scrap my old artist did for me. :smallbiggrin: She was rather good; I just wish she wasn't so busy.

Myou
2009-08-09, 08:27 AM
Kinetic Weapon [Force]
Evocation
Level: Bard 2, Duskblade 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Touch
Target: Weapon touched
Duration: 1 hour; see text.
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

You imbue a weapon with pure force energy. When a wielder makes a successful attack roll with this weapon, she may discharge the spell and unleash the magical energy as a swift action. Damage dealt by that attack is Force damage, negating any miss chance due to a target's incorporeality as well as bypassing damage reduction, and knocks the target back one square per 4 caster levels (minimum 1).



Thank you. It's a random scrap my old artist did for me. :smallbiggrin: She was rather good; I just wish she wasn't so busy.

Oh, looks great, thank you very much! :3

What level would it be if the effect didn't discharge, and instead lasted the full duration? So that I could present it to my player in Lesser and Greater forms.

I'm not good at judging level for spells used in melee. ^^;

AstralFire
2009-08-09, 08:42 AM
As long as you continue to require the swift action to activate the effect, you could probably make the greater version Sor/Wiz 5, Bard 3, Duskblade 3. If it's continuous, with no action? That's better than Ghost Touch and Knockback both strictly speaking, so I'd probably make that S/W 7, Dusk 4, Bard 5.

Myou
2009-08-09, 08:47 AM
As long as you continue to require the swift action to activate the effect, you could probably make the greater version Sor/Wiz 5, Bard 3, Duskblade 3. If it's continuous, with no action? That's better than Ghost Touch and Knockback both strictly speaking, so I'd probably make that S/W 7, Dusk 4, Bard 5.

Excellent, thank you very much! ^^

arguskos
2009-08-09, 09:01 AM
I dunno Astral, I might make that spell Sor/Wiz 2, not 3. It's not adding anything but the pushback ability, and really, Sor/Wiz isn't going to want to waste a 3rd level slot on the knockback, not when the most comparable effect is Battering Ram (2nd level, technically a bull rush, but it's the best thing I could find; also does some damage notably and is also Force).

Also, Myou! Haven't seen you around much! We should catch up sometime soon, yeah? :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2009-08-09, 09:04 AM
I was just looking at it from the standpoint that it's more thematically appropriate to gish casters, so it'd be delayed a bit on the Sor/Wiz list compared to the arcane gishes. It would be fine at Sor/Wiz 2.

Myou
2009-08-09, 09:14 AM
I dunno Astral, I might make that spell Sor/Wiz 2, not 3. It's not adding anything but the pushback ability, and really, Sor/Wiz isn't going to want to waste a 3rd level slot on the knockback, not when the most comparable effect is Battering Ram (2nd level, technically a bull rush, but it's the best thing I could find; also does some damage notably and is also Force).

Also, Myou! Haven't seen you around much! We should catch up sometime soon, yeah? :smallbiggrin:

Good to see you again! We must indeed. ^^

And thanks again to you both. :3

Cieyrin
2009-08-09, 10:04 AM
Hmm, the detriment I see is that you can't activate it in the same round that you cast it, as swift action to cast it and swift action to activate, given how you can't convert other action types to swift ones (silly as that is :smalltongue:). It'd only be a setup or an every other round type effect, which seems a bit annoying to me.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

AstralFire
2009-08-09, 10:05 AM
Oh, right. I keep forgetting that that's only an actual rule in Saga.

That could be a problem. Though I think it's a natural houserule.

Myou
2009-08-09, 10:10 AM
Oh, right. I keep forgetting that that's only an actual rule in Saga.

That could be a problem. Though I think it's a natural houserule.

Uh, what's a natural houserule? o.o

AstralFire
2009-08-09, 10:15 AM
Uh, what's a natural houserule? o.o

Converting a move action to a swift action, if for example you want to use two swifts and a standard in the same round.

Myou
2009-08-09, 11:39 AM
Converting a move action to a swift action, if for example you want to use two swifts and a standard in the same round.

Wow, doesn't that give a big boost to casters though?

DracoDei
2009-08-09, 12:17 PM
Not if you ALSO make the common sense rule that you can only cast one quickened spell per round with the non-epic version of that feat. (or am I missing something).

Myou
2009-08-09, 12:21 PM
Not if you ALSO make the common sense rule that you can only case one quickened spell per round with the non-epic version of that feat. (or am I missing something).

Oh, yeah, that sorts that out. XD

I think that was how it worked before swift actions were brought in actually.

Glimbur
2009-08-09, 12:45 PM
Converting a move action to a swift action, if for example you want to use two swifts and a standard in the same round.

That also helps ToB types unless you make rules about that too.

AstralFire
2009-08-09, 12:58 PM
That's easy enough; one boost a round.

In some cases it'll let you get a boost and a counter, but I don't think that's too much to worry about.

Myou
2009-08-09, 01:16 PM
After talking to my player I've realised that he wants to be able to knock people back and into objects, and to chhose what direct they're flung. And realistically they should fall prone afterwards.

So here's what I'm considering, adapting Astral's spell a little to try to satisfy my player;

Kinetic Weapon [Force]
Evocation
Level: Bard ?, Duskblade ?, Sor/Wiz ?, Wu Jen ?
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Touch
Target: Weapon touched
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex partial (See text)
Spell Resistance: No

You imbue a weapon with pure force energy. When the weapon's wielder makes a successful attack roll with this weapon, he may discharge the magical energy as a swift action. The spell makes all damage dealt by that attack Force damage, negating any miss chance due to a target's incorporeality as well as bypassing all damage reduction, and knocking the target back by 5 foot per 4 caster levels (minimum 5). If the target strikes a solid object that halts their flight they take 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 5 foot they would otherwise have flown. At the end of this movement the target must make a reflex save to avoid being knocked prone.

Focus: The weapon to be imbued.


Greater Kinetic Weapon [Force]
Evocation
Level: Bard ?, Duskblade ?, Sor/Wiz ?, Wu Jen ?
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Touch
Target: Weapon touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You imbue a weapon with pure force energy. When the weapon's wielder makes a successful attack roll with this weapon, he may discharge the magical energy as a swift action. The spell makes all damage dealt by that attack Force damage, negating any miss chance due to a target's incorporeality as well as bypassing all damage reduction, and knocking the target back by 5 foot per 4 caster levels (minimum 5). If the target strikes a solid object that halts their flight they take 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 5 foot they would otherwise have flown. At the end of this movement the target must make a reflex save to avoid being knocked prone.

Unlike Kinetic weapon, this spell is not discharged upon use.

Focus: The weapon to be imbued.


Does anyone think I should change those in any way?

And what levels should they be?

Siosilvar
2009-08-09, 01:33 PM
There's another knockback enhancement around you might want to look at, as well. Clouting from Complete Arcane. +3 and only DC 19, but always works and pushes back 10 feet (plus another save against stunning).

AstralFire
2009-08-09, 01:34 PM
I would use Telekinetic Thrust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticThrust.htm) as the basis, limit it to one object, make the subject take 1d6 damage per caster level if they hit a wall.

Myou
2009-08-10, 04:33 AM
Thanks for the suggeestion, Astral.

Ok, here's my latest attempt!

Kinetic Punch
Evocation [Force]
Level: Duskblade ?, Sor/Wiz ?, Wu Jen ?
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Touch
Target: One object or creature with a total weight equal to your maximum carrying capacity or less.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

With a battle-cry to focus your strength you imbue your fists with pure force energy, making them glow faintly with restrained power. Upon your next successful touch attack or unarmed strike the energy is discharged, converting all damage dealt to force damage, bypassing damage reduction, and blasting the target of the attack back.

The target is sent flying up to 5 feet per caster level in the direction of your choice and land prone (if possible), although you can choose to restrain yourself and limit that distance as you wish. If the target is destroyed by your attack the fragments are sent flying instead.

If you wish to blast the target into another secondary target (be it an enemy or an object) you must succeed on a ranged attack roll to hit, as if you had thrown your initial target at your secondary target. Targets hurled in this way are treated as improvised thrown weapons, with both they and the target they hit taking damage from the impact.



Does that work? And what level shoud it be?

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 09:07 AM
Chances of an unarmed attack 'destroying someone' are low. Hee. :smalltongue:

I'd put it Duskblade 1, S/W 2, WJ 2.

Myou
2009-08-10, 10:10 AM
Chances of an unarmed attack 'destroying someone' are low. Hee. :smalltongue:

I'd put it Duskblade 1, S/W 2, WJ 2.

Normally, yes, but he's a Wu Jen//Monk, with some tweaks to boost the Monk' power. xD

Wow, that's awesome, he can take it right away! Thanks Astral! :smallsmile:


If anyone wants to make any further suggestions they'd be much appreciated. :3

Cieyrin
2009-08-10, 12:13 PM
Kinetic Punch only makes me think of one thing: "FALLLCONN PUUNNCHHH!!!!" :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 12:24 PM
Kinetic Punch only makes me think of one thing: "FALLLCONN PUUNNCHHH!!!!" :smallbiggrin:

Falcon Punch! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw)

DracoDei
2009-08-10, 12:34 PM
This sort of thing (knockback) is actually noted as a trap spell creation can fall into in the DMG, I should have mentioned this earlier, but it didn't beco0me urgent until actual spell levels were mentioned. Knockback seems weak... until people start using it to push people off of cliffs or such. Thus level 2 is probably much too low.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-10, 12:34 PM
I had no idea there was an F-Zero TV show. His presence in SSB makes so much more sense now.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 01:30 PM
This sort of thing (knockback) is actually noted as a trap spell creation can fall into in the DMG, I should have mentioned this earlier, but it didn't beco0me urgent until actual spell levels were mentioned. Knockback seems weak... until people start using it to push people off of cliffs or such. Thus level 2 is probably much too low.

Bull Honky.

A level 2 spell renders most arrows for several levels harmless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm), and they're worried about knockback and people taking advantage of terrain? That's crazy, and if it becomes too powerful, it's not hard for encounters to not be on dramatic cliffs and towers 24/7.

I'd much rather my players use good tactics than pick up a single reality-bending spell that I Wins an encounter just because the spell is universally that good.


I had no idea there was an F-Zero TV show. His presence in SSB makes so much more sense now.

The show came after the Smash series, and that was the only occurrence of the Falcon Punch in it. Smash was originally a cosmetic adaptation of a 2D Fighter with original characters, and I suspect Captain Falcon was grafted onto a mostly complete fighter with lots of fast, fiery moves.

Myou
2009-08-10, 05:20 PM
Kinetic Punch only makes me think of one thing: "FALLLCONN PUUNNCHHH!!!!" :smallbiggrin:

Hell yes. :D

Myou
2009-08-10, 05:32 PM
Woah, I didn't even notice the second page.


Falcon Punch! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw)

I will never tire of that clip. xD


This sort of thing (knockback) is actually noted as a trap spell creation can fall into in the DMG, I should have mentioned this earlier, but it didn't beco0me urgent until actual spell levels were mentioned. Knockback seems weak... until people start using it to push people off of cliffs or such. Thus level 2 is probably much too low.

But a normal bull rush can do that just a easily.... Is that really so powerful?


Bull Honky.

A level 2 spell renders most arrows for several levels harmless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm), and they're worried about knockback and people taking advantage of terrain? That's crazy, and if it becomes too powerful, it's not hard for encounters to not be on dramatic cliffs and towers 24/7.

I'd much rather my players use good tactics than pick up a single reality-bending spell that I Wins an encounter just because the spell is universally that good.

Yes, for rare occasions when it will work I don't think it's a big deal. Hell, you can get flight at level 2, or the full Fly spell at level 3, so many enemies will be fine anyway, even when there is a giant cliff.


The show came after the Smash series, and that was the only occurrence of the Falcon Punch in it. Smash was originally a cosmetic adaptation of a 2D Fighter with original characters, and I suspect Captain Falcon was grafted onto a mostly complete fighter with lots of fast, fiery moves.

He only did it once?!

DracoDei
2009-08-10, 05:38 PM
A level 2 spell renders most arrows for several levels harmless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm), and they're worried about knockback and people taking advantage of terrain? That's crazy, and if it becomes too powerful, it's not hard for encounters to not be on dramatic cliffs and towers 24/7.
After some consideration, I concede the point.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 09:41 PM
He only did it once?!

That's what I said.

As soon as I found that out, I lost any interest in watching the rest of the series.

Myou
2009-08-11, 03:37 AM
That's what I said.

As soon as I found that out, I lost any interest in watching the rest of the series.

Yeah, that clip is basically all you need. xD