PDA

View Full Version : [4E/George R. R. Martin] Bringing the Lord of Light to 4E.



FlawedParadigm
2009-08-11, 03:53 AM
I was looking over Divine Power Domain feats, and I got to noticing that there's not a direct Fire Domain. Awhile later, as I was reading through A Storm of Swords for something like the eighth time, it struck me that Melisandre of Asshai and Thoros of Myr would have made interesting characters to play, or to play expys of.

I imagine if you've read the books, you can see the problem already.

There's no Fire domain, and worse, by canon, there's already someone set up to be The Lord of Light - Pelor (Sun, Life, Hope). But on the other hand, this may not be a case of There Can Be Only One, so I was hoping for some help here. First off, I made a Fire Domain, as follows:

Power of Fire [Domain]
Prerequisite: Any divine class, must worship a deity of the fire domain.
Benefit: You gain a +2 feat bonus to Endurance checks.
When you use a power associated with this feat and hit an enemy with it,
that power deals 1d4 fire damage in addition to its other effects.
Powers: Bond of Censure (Avenger DP), Sacred Flame (Cleric PHB),
Sun Strike (Invoker PHB 2), Virtuous Strike (Paladin DP)


Warding Flames [Divinity]
Prerequisite: Channel Divinity class feature, must worship a deity of the
Fire domain.
Benefit: You gain the Channel Divinity power Warding Flames.


Channel Divinity: Warding Flames Feat power
Your deity's wrath shields an ally, warning enemies away from striking them.
Encounter Divine, Fire
Minor Action Close Burst 5
Target: You or one ally in the burst
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, any enemy hits or misses the target
takes fire damage equal to your Wisdom modifier.


I actually wanted to run the CD as "Purifying Flame" as some kind of "roll a save with a bonus" power, but first off, there's bunches of those, although not necessarily as CDs, and second off, it really only makes sense within the context of the books (A Clash of Kings, prologue). That could also potentially be a function of the ruby choker itself, so I'm not sure. I wanted to do Power of Fire as a fire vulnerability inducer because I didn't want to do "change type to fire, add +2/3/4 damage" due to too much fire resist amongst monsters. Unfortunately, not a single Divine at-will does fire damage. No, not even Sacred Flame.

Anyhow, with a Fire domain, R'hllor could have a purview different than Pelor's, but I'm hoping to go a little more different. What other domains do you think R'hllor could have without stretching too far? I could see Sun, Hope, Life, Civilisation, or possibly Destruction, Love, War, or Protection, although I think some of the second group may be a bit stretch-y.

I'm hoping we can pare it down to three or less domains that all make sense, and are hopefully significantly different from Pelor.

Thanks in advance.

GeneralTacticus
2009-08-11, 05:00 AM
If you go by Melisandre's theology (which she may have made up to justify her shadowbinding in light of her religion), then the Darkness domain might work. She refers to R'hllor as the God of Flame and Shadow, after all.

Given the various healing abilities that Thoros and Melisandre display, Life seems to be a very good fit. Sun also makes a good fit, with the radiant vulnerabilities it gives - it might be worth deciding that R'hllor's holy fires deal radiant damage and that's that, given how many divine powers already use it and how much more useful it is.

A possible CD that occurred to me - something that temporarily blinds enemies around you? Also, a possible Domain power: have it add the fire keyword to the relevant power, and then give a big damage boost, say +4/+6/+8. The damage increase is balanced by the fact that: a) it's only for a single power (as opposed to e.g. Weapon Focus, which improves everything) and b) fire is not a very useful keyword.

The trouble with trying to get specific here is that our only exposure to R'hllor's doctrine is through Melisandre and Thoros, both of whom have quite strong and differing perspectives on their god's nature. Depending on what aspects of him you wanted to emphasise, you could add Knowledge (Melisandre's divinations by fire, and general description of him as the embodiment of truth), possibly Fate (divinations again), Justice (Thoros certainly sees R'hllor as a god concerned with justice), Creation (he exists in opposition to the Great Other, who allegedly seeks universal destruction)... not to mention all the other possibilities you've raised. If you want to have a god with a specific purview, rather than a lone uber-god who does everything, I think you'll need to pin down a specific interpretation of him and run with that. What that interpretation is would, in turn, probably depend on what kind of follower you were interested in portraying.

FlawedParadigm
2009-08-11, 07:04 AM
If you go by Melisandre's theology (which she may have made up to justify her shadowbinding in light of her religion), then the Darkness domain might work. She refers to R'hllor as the God of Flame and Shadow, after all.

Here's part of the problem...if we assume the entire religion of R'hllor is the only true one in Westeros, then we're looking at a bi-deity pantheon, wherein every domain would be split between two deities. Of course, I'm trying to slip R'hllor into an otherwise polytheistic pantheon, ergo, problems arise. My natural inclination is that anything that R'hllor represents, the opposite should go to The Great Other, such as Darkness. But of course, that can't be followed through on.


Given the various healing abilities that Thoros and Melisandre display, Life seems to be a very good fit. Sun also makes a good fit, with the radiant vulnerabilities it gives - it might be worth deciding that R'hllor's holy fires deal radiant damage and that's that, given how many divine powers already use it and how much more useful it is.

Yeah, I'm considering the Radiant/Fire angle, with the revelation of there being no Divine at-wills for Fire. That's why several of the Power of Fire...uh...powers...were ones with the Radiant keyword. I'm just hoping there's a way the fire theme can be kept. Granted, he is the Lord of Light, but you know how often fire's mentioned as part of his worship.


A possible CD that occurred to me - something that temporarily blinds enemies around you? Also, a possible Domain power: have it add the fire keyword to the relevant power, and then give a big damage boost, say +4/+6/+8. The damage increase is balanced by the fact that: a) it's only for a single power (as opposed to e.g. Weapon Focus, which improves everything) and b) fire is not a very useful keyword.

I worry that Blind on a CD might be a little too good. I'd be surprised if it wasn't something they tested for the Sun domain and discarded. I do like the damage-boosted Fire version, although I wonder if it might not be too good with Tieflings. I admit the 1d4 version, while very good at Heroic, is so bad in Paragon/Epic that I'd want to retrain it, which would have horrible RP implications. For the record, I also considered Ongoing Fire 2 (save ends), but if the battle's versus a solo or down to one target, that's a very bad attribute to put on something you'll be using every round, since it won't stack. Your version may be best. It's not as though Tieflings are very good at much else anyhow, Bard and arguably Warlock aside.


The trouble with trying to get specific here is that our only exposure to R'hllor's doctrine is through Melisandre and Thoros, both of whom have quite strong and differing perspectives on their god's nature. Depending on what aspects of him you wanted to emphasise, you could add Knowledge (Melisandre's divinations by fire, and general description of him as the embodiment of truth), possibly Fate (divinations again), Justice (Thoros certainly sees R'hllor as a god concerned with justice), Creation (he exists in opposition to the Great Other, who allegedly seeks universal destruction)... not to mention all the other possibilities you've raised. If you want to have a god with a specific purview, rather than a lone uber-god who does everything, I think you'll need to pin down a specific interpretation of him and run with that. What that interpretation is would, in turn, probably depend on what kind of follower you were interested in portraying.

Yeah, see the problem about with adapting a deity from a bi-deity pantheon to a more polytheistic one. Too many things "should" be under R'hllor's purview, but for game balance reasons, giving him more than three domains is a bad idea, and we're doubly vexed by my insistence on a Fire domain, dropping us down to two of many choices.

So far as pinning down a specific interpretation, if we choose to do so, I think Thoros is the safer bet (although I'd argue his sense of justice is more of a personal thing garnered from Lord Beric than religion-based) simply because Melisandre is known to be at least something of a charlatan - Aemon said that the sword is not Lightbringer, and we know that he is not the prince the prophecy spoke of, as of A Feast for Crows. He also said Melisandre must know these things, so for some unknown purpose, she's lying at some level. It may be she's only pretending to serve R'hllor. I have more specific suspicions, but they're neither relevant to the thread, nor this the place to discuss them.

The hardest part, as mentioned in the OP, is that my first reflex is to assign Fire, Sun, and Life - but then we're just one Domain from Pelor, and then what's the point? On the other hand, all three domains clearly suit him...so I want to be different, but no so far that we run the risk of our own little version of gameplay and story segregation. Although I'd overlooked Creation entirely. Hm. Knowledge or Fate would also be strong contenders for a third Domain. Hopefully we can get a couple of more opinions.

GeneralTacticus
2009-08-11, 07:40 AM
Here's part of the problem...if we assume the entire religion of R'hllor is the only true one in Westeros, then we're looking at a bi-deity pantheon, wherein every domain would be split between two deities. Of course, I'm trying to slip R'hllor into an otherwise polytheistic pantheon, ergo, problems arise. My natural inclination is that anything that R'hllor represents, the opposite should go to The Great Other, such as Darkness. But of course, that can't be followed through on.

Yes, it is rather a problem.


Yeah, I'm considering the Radiant/Fire angle, with the revelation of there being no Divine at-wills for Fire. That's why several of the Power of Fire...uh...powers...were ones with the Radiant keyword. I'm just hoping there's a way the fire theme can be kept. Granted, he is the Lord of Light, but you know how often fire's mentioned as part of his worship.

On the other hand, Sun overlaps with it quite a lot; the sun is basically the ultimate fire, after all.

Also, another approach you could take: R'hllor isn't the god of fire and some other stuff. He is fire, entirely, and everything he does is fire manifesting itself in some particular way. So rather than having a Fire domain and then deciding whether it should burn people, blind them protect them, whatever, you have the Life domain for fire-as-healer, the Sun domain for fire-as-light, the Knowledge domain for fire-as-revealer, Destruction for fire-as-destruction, etc.


I worry that Blind on a CD might be a little too good. I'd be surprised if it wasn't something they tested for the Sun domain and discarded.

Well, my specific thought - which I forgot to properly articulate - was something along the lines of Close Burst 2, targets enemies, choice of Int/Wis/Cha vs. Fort, target is blinded until the end of your next turn. It's a nasty debuff, but on the other hand you haven't actually hurt them directly.


I do like the damage-boosted Fire version, although I wonder if it might not be too good with Tieflings. I admit the 1d4 version, while very good at Heroic, is so bad in Paragon/Epic that I'd want to retrain it, which would have horrible RP implications. For the record, I also considered Ongoing Fire 2 (save ends), but if the battle's versus a solo or down to one target, that's a very bad attribute to put on something you'll be using every round, since it won't stack. Your version may be best. It's not as though Tieflings are very good at much else anyhow, Bard and arguably Warlock aside.

Besides, a Tiefling worshiping R'hllor, while playing slightly against racial type, is thematically awesome. No reason not to mechanically encourage it if it fits.


Yeah, see the problem about with adapting a deity from a bi-deity pantheon to a more polytheistic one. Too many things "should" be under R'hllor's purview, but for game balance reasons, giving him more than three domains is a bad idea, and we're doubly vexed by my insistence on a Fire domain, dropping us down to two of many choices.

See above for my thoughts there.


So far as pinning down a specific interpretation, if we choose to do so, I think Thoros is the safer bet (although I'd argue his sense of justice is more of a personal thing garnered from Lord Beric than religion-based) simply because Melisandre is known to be at least something of a charlatan - Aemon said that the sword is not Lightbringer, and we know that he is not the prince the prophecy spoke of, as of A Feast for Crows. He also said Melisandre must know these things, so for some unknown purpose, she's lying at some level. It may be she's only pretending to serve R'hllor. I have more specific suspicions, but they're neither relevant to the thread, nor this the place to discuss them.

The hardest part, as mentioned in the OP, is that my first reflex is to assign Fire, Sun, and Life - but then we're just one Domain from Pelor, and then what's the point? On the other hand, all three domains clearly suit him...so I want to be different, but no so far that we run the risk of our own little version of gameplay and story segregation. Although I'd overlooked Creation entirely. Hm. Knowledge or Fate would also be strong contenders for a third Domain. Hopefully we can get a couple of more opinions.

Well, one option is just to suck it up and accept that, mechanically, he is a lot like Pelor, and trust in his personality to distinguish him. Another would be to drop Pelor from the setting and have R'hllor fill his niche.

FlawedParadigm
2009-08-11, 08:36 AM
On the other hand, Sun overlaps with it quite a lot; the sun is basically the ultimate fire, after all.

Also, another approach you could take: R'hllor isn't the god of fire and some other stuff. He is fire, entirely, and everything he does is fire manifesting itself in some particular way. So rather than having a Fire domain and then deciding whether it should burn people, blind them protect them, whatever, you have the Life domain for fire-as-healer, the Sun domain for fire-as-light, the Knowledge domain for fire-as-revealer, Destruction for fire-as-destruction, etc.

This...helps some. Some. There still ought to be a Fire domain - every other element/damage type is represented in some fashion, other than Psychic, if I recall. But it would ease up on the "too many domains" thing. Destruction veers too closely to The Great Other for my tastes, but Creation (forged in the fires of creation), Knowledge (the flame-divination common to both characters), and Sun (duh?) might work...




Well, my specific thought - which I forgot to properly articulate - was something along the lines of Close Burst 2, targets enemies, choice of Int/Wis/Cha vs. Fort, target is blinded until the end of your next turn. It's a nasty debuff, but on the other hand you haven't actually hurt them directly.

Sticky territory. Barring the undead-zapping ones, I don't believe any other CDs get into attack rolls. Partially because there's several different Divine classes which major/minor in all stats, depending on the build. The Sun Domain really gets a lot done for what we want to accomplish; both the Power and CD inflict vulnerability, and if we're willing to do the Fire-as-Radiant thing...



Besides, a Tiefling worshiping R'hllor, while playing slightly against racial type, is thematically awesome. No reason not to mechanically encourage it if it fits.

Fair enough. I intended to stat Melisandre as a Tiefling anyhow, if mostly because it would get her natural red eyes, which she's often pointed out as having, and her "Tiefling trait" could be the unnaturally warm skin she's been demonstrated to have. No horns, no tail...just very, very warm. This works doubly well if Melisandre is only pretending to worship R'hllor, as I suspect is the case - might be we'll find out soon. I understand either her or Loras will have POV chapters in A Dance with Dragons.



Well, one option is just to suck it up and accept that, mechanically, he is a lot like Pelor, and trust in his personality to distinguish him. Another would be to drop Pelor from the setting and have R'hllor fill his niche.

Aaaaaactually...depending on the pronunciation of R'hllor (we only know "Rulore" is wrong, because when Arya says that, the text continues "she couldn't even say it right.") Pelor and R'hllor may rhyme...may even be the same deity, just different accents...hm. Perhaps then Hope, Life, and Sun wouldn't be so bad. The +2 Diplomacy from Hope even makes sense, as both characters for different reasons are very charismatic. For my part, though, I think from what we know of R'hllor, Knowledge probably fits better than Hope.

Winterwind
2009-08-11, 09:12 AM
Personally, I suspect Aemon's desperate "Melisandre must know the sword is false" is to be interpreted as indication that she should realize it, but is not thinking rationally anymore. I.e., she is not consciously lying - she is merely blinded by her own fanaticism and believes in her own deluded propaganda.

The other problem, if you are going to stat R'hllor for D&D play, is that I don't think we have enough information about him yet to make an informed guess regarding his alignment. Going by the books, he could be anything from the goodest Good to the most sinister Evil (I tend to speculate more towards the latter, but there is just no way how we could tell for sure).

FlawedParadigm
2009-08-11, 01:59 PM
Luckily, 4E gave us Unaligned, which will serve until further notice. Heh.

GeneralTacticus
2009-08-12, 08:06 AM
This...helps some. Some. There still ought to be a Fire domain - every other element/damage type is represented in some fashion, other than Psychic, if I recall. But it would ease up on the "too many domains" thing.

Well, wanting a fire domain for the sake of completeness is fair enough, but I'm not sure that R'hllor needs it. Given his nature, it would be like having a "Pelor" domain or a "Raven Queen" domain; it would encompass everything important about him. And, even if there were some other fire-associated god with this hypothetical domain, R'hllor's priests could dismiss the manipulation of earthly flames as a mere parlour trick compared to what their god is capable of.

Also, if it's truly essential that R'hllorites be capable of manipulating fire directly, you could give it to them as a R'hllor-specific Channel Divinity without a domain, like all the non-evil published gods have.


Destruction veers too closely to The Great Other for my tastes, but Creation (forged in the fires of creation), Knowledge (the flame-divination common to both characters), and Sun (duh?) might work...

Knowledge and Sun both work fine, but on reflection I think Life fits better than Creation. The Domain power for Creation isn't bad (+1 AC to an ally when you hit with a relevant at-will), but the Channel Divinity powers magic items, which doesn't seem very on-theme for the Lord of Light.


Sticky territory. Barring the undead-zapping ones, I don't believe any other CDs get into attack rolls. Partially because there's several different Divine classes which major/minor in all stats, depending on the build. The Sun Domain really gets a lot done for what we want to accomplish; both the Power and CD inflict vulnerability, and if we're willing to do the Fire-as-Radiant thing...

Well, the reason I suggested a choice of Wisdom or Charisma as the attack stat is that every printed Divine class has one or both of them as either a primary or secondary stat.

Or, for a thoroughly pedestrian option: everyone in close burst 5 gains fire resistance 5 until the end of your next turn? Basically the Winter CD flipped around.


Fair enough. I intended to stat Melisandre as a Tiefling anyhow, if mostly because it would get her natural red eyes, which she's often pointed out as having, and her "Tiefling trait" could be the unnaturally warm skin she's been demonstrated to have. No horns, no tail...just very, very warm. This works doubly well if Melisandre is only pretending to worship R'hllor, as I suspect is the case - might be we'll find out soon. I understand either her or Loras will have POV chapters in A Dance with Dragons.

I actually think her actions make more sense if she really does believe. If she were after power of any sort, she'd have done far better to attach herself to Renly or Joffrey; I think both would have been much easier to manipulate, and they had more resources available to further her plans.


Aaaaaactually...depending on the pronunciation of R'hllor (we only know "Rulore" is wrong, because when Arya says that, the text continues "she couldn't even say it right.") Pelor and R'hllor may rhyme...may even be the same deity, just different accents...hm.

Interesting thought - that never occurred to me. Well, that doesn open up some possibilities.


Perhaps then Hope, Life, and Sun wouldn't be so bad. The +2 Diplomacy from Hope even makes sense, as both characters for different reasons are very charismatic. For my part, though, I think from what we know of R'hllor, Knowledge probably fits better than Hope.

I agree. With the exception of the diplomacy buff, none of Hope's mechanics seem to fit terribly well, and you can represent their charisma perfectly well by just giving them high Charisma.

FlawedParadigm
2009-08-12, 05:01 PM
Well, wanting a fire domain for the sake of completeness is fair enough, but I'm not sure that R'hllor needs it. Given his nature, it would be like having a "Pelor" domain or a "Raven Queen" domain; it would encompass everything important about him. And, even if there were some other fire-associated god with this hypothetical domain, R'hllor's priests could dismiss the manipulation of earthly flames as a mere parlour trick compared to what their god is capable of.

Also, if it's truly essential that R'hllorites be capable of manipulating fire directly, you could give it to them as a R'hllor-specific Channel Divinity without a domain, like all the non-evil published gods have.

Conceded. There shall be a Fire Domain, but it would be redundant for R'hllor.


Knowledge and Sun both work fine, but on reflection I think Life fits better than Creation. The Domain power for Creation isn't bad (+1 AC to an ally when you hit with a relevant at-will), but the Channel Divinity powers magic items, which doesn't seem very on-theme for the Lord of Light.

Well, yes, but that's in part because of the setting. The only legitimate magic items we know of are the glass candles, the dragon-binding-horn, and the Horn of Winter. And we haven't seen *proof* that either of the last two work in modern times. It's something to think about.


Well, the reason I suggested a choice of Wisdom or Charisma as the attack stat is that every printed Divine class has one or both of them as either a primary or secondary stat.

Or, for a thoroughly pedestrian option: everyone in close burst 5 gains fire resistance 5 until the end of your next turn? Basically the Winter CD flipped around.

I generally use the Winter CD as an example of an awful ability, myself. It's viciously narrow. Granted, Fire is a much more common damage type, but still. Maybe add 2/5/8 Fire resist to the current CD? I just don't want to overpower it.


I actually think her actions make more sense if she really does believe. If she were after power of any sort, she'd have done far better to attach herself to Renly or Joffrey; I think both would have been much easier to manipulate, and they had more resources available to further her plans.

See, that assumes her goal is power. It may not be. It may be that she needs Stannis specifically for something, or that she'd gian easier acceptance from the more desperate kings, it's hard to say. We know in some fashion she's either lying or misinformed or elsewise deluded, we just don't know how or why. I point out she's referred to as a shadowbinder (and not by name) in A Game of Thrones. It's not until the next book we know her as a Red Priestess. Now...that could just be that GRRM decided to make the rumour true...but he has prophecies in AGoT that don't happen until ASoS or AFfC, so it seems unlikely he didn't plan ahead.

What this tells me is that originally she was more famous for shadowbinding than any faith she had. This does not help my opinion of her. She may or may not believe all the things she says, but Aemon does specifically mention she must know the sword isn't Lightbringer. I trust Aemon's judgment in the matter...it's pretty obvious the sword never actually burns anything. It doesn't help that we've seen an actual burning sword either, so we know it can be done.


I agree. With the exception of the diplomacy buff, none of Hope's mechanics seem to fit terribly well, and you can represent their charisma perfectly well by just giving them high Charisma.

So Life, Knowledge, and Sun it is. Might be able to work that into the Pelor/R'hllor image, or vice versa.