[3.5] Retraining class levels, ability scores and skills.

[Myou]

In the campaign I'm running at the moment my player has expressed regret that he chose to play a gestalt Monk//Wu Jen rather than Monk//Sorcerer. I suggested he could retrain himself at a cost of gold and xp (and time) and he leapt at the chance.

He's currently level 4 and has 8,000 xp. I'm curious to know what you'd make him pay to rebalance hs ability scores (he dumped charisma), change many of his skills, change a feat or two and replace his Wu Jen levels wih Sorcerer levels.

I'd also be interested to hear from anyone who has used retraining themselves.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

PHB2 has the retraining rules. Generally, they go something like 100-1000 GP/week of retraining with one week taking up a level, feat, ACF, etc. I'm not sure if there was an XP requirement or not, as I am AFB.

[Myou]

PHB2 has the retraining rules. Generally, they go something like 100-1000 GP/week of retraining with one week taking up a level, feat, ACF, etc. I'm not sure if there was an XP requirement or not, as I am AFB.

Ah, I'll look that up, thanks.

I'm interested to know if playgrounders actually follow those rules though, or if they use their own pricing/methods.

[Zephyros]

IMHO retraining that you have to pay is not something the majority of players I know would appreciate (when -unless your DM is f*cking around with you- you can just retire your character and bring in the altered sheet)


If the player is adamant on keeping the character and changing the Wu Jen part PHB2 has some nice samples for "genetic engineering" of the character... If those don't suit you (or you don't own the book) craft your own.

Maybe as the character discovers his bloodline he irrevocably offends his taboos and then gradually the transformation takes place :smallwink: How gradually the change takes place is something you have to discuss with the player, 'cause I am not sure if he ll like to spend half the campaign transforming :smalltongue:

[Myou]

IMHO retraining that you have to pay is not something the majority of players I know would appreciate (when -unless your DM is f*cking around with you- you can just retire your character and bring in the altered sheet)


If the player is adamant on keeping the character and changing the Wu Jen part PHB2 has some nice samples for "genetic engineering" of the character... If those don't suit you (or you don't own the book) craft your own.

Maybe as the character discovers his bloodline he irrevocably offends his taboos and then gradually the transformation takes place :smallwink: How gradually the change takes place is something you have to discuss with the player, 'cause I am not sure if he ll like to spend half the campaign transforming :smalltongue:

Well, he certainly wouldn't wat to retire the character, but the breaking his taboos might be a good way to set it off.

I'm thinking about it taking about a month or so, during which time he would have to train himself to relearn his powers to use his awakening abilities. xD

[Epinephrine]

Ah, I'll look that up, thanks.

I'm interested to know if playgrounders actually follow those rules though, or if they use their own pricing/methods.

We allow any retraining as desired pretty much - as long as it can make some sense. The DM works it into the plot, typically, and it flows well that way. Since we play for fun, it seems silly to punish a player for having chosen something they regret - so things like poorly chosen spells, feats that end up seeming silly and so on can be retrained easily enough (not mid-session or anything, but when they have a chance to rest and train).

In fact, in the campaign I am running right now, the Warblade is thinking he may retrain as a Paladin. The favoured soul of Pelor has been very helpful to him, and keeps trying to convert others. A while back he bought a holy symbol of Pelor, and claimed that he had switched deities; as a result he benefits more from some of her spells. Then she picked up Imbue Spell Ability, and handily enough, he can cast spells using his own holy symbol. Now he's deciding that he may have a conversion experience, and has asked if I'd be ok with him retraining all his warblade levels as Paladin levels.

Sure! Why not? The favoured soul is doing her thing, converting people to Pelor. He has asked if he can replace his gear with more appropriate gear at cost - I said that if he'd like to write up a list of the type of gear he'd like I'll see what I can do - the power of plot.

[Kaiyanwang]

I (DM) generally allow retrain when there is a very important roleplaying related situation, or we discover a better way to mechanical represent a concept.

Example1: Cleric, his deity dies ---> retrained as Oadv Shaman after a retire. His flavour and PrC of hunter of undead remained unchanged

Example2: Ninja // Rogue after a defeat went to the Naga to train their way of fight, communicated with their psionic god for alliance (common enemies)
Eventually, the emperor rewarded him for another quest with the title of Avenger.

Now, his a Kusarigama-cheesed Rogue // Avenger/ Psywarrior

In that case, is free, barring the time. A lot of time (in game but I play with pauses of a year too from adventuring) for both


In other issues, I follow PHII rules. Example, the above Rog //PsyWAvng wanted to learn a different power.

In that case, he went to the Naga again an paid a trainer. Simple (nothing revolutionary, only a power swap).

[Myou]

I think I'll go with what others are saying, and not charge much in xp or gold, and just make sure that it gets worked into the plot. ^^

Thanks guys, good advice. :3

[elonin]

I'm not a dm, but this can work as a way to salvage a charactor that a player just can't live with. Psionic reformation is a useful prop for this for a roleplay sense and can justify a quest and charge for gold etc. If you don't use psionics I'd let that be a magic version.

[Tempest Fennac]

My approach to retraining is just to let people swap out feats, Spontaneous Spells Known or skill points whenever they level at no cost at all (I can't really see much point in making people pay to do that sort of thing). I've never had situations where a player's wanted to retrain class levels or stats (I'd probably just tell them to make a new character if they wanted to do that due to how awkward ret-conning those things would be).

[Myou]

I've decided that since he wants to change ability scores (a little) as well as feats and classes, and since he's excited about it and wants to do it soon, that I'll have an artifact perform the change, awakening his sorcerer heritage. :3

Because otherwise we'd have to travel a long way to get somewhere safe and quiet for the retraining.

[Kylarra]

I've decided that since he wants to change ability scores (a little) as well as feats and classes, and since he's excited about it and wants to do it soon, that I'll have an artifact perform the change, awakening his sorcerer heritage. :3

Because otherwise we'd have to travel a long way to get somewhere safe and quiet for the retraining.Turn him into a girl to explain the charisma increase. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AttractiveBentGender)

[Doc Roc]

Personally, I wouldn't make him pay. My great regret about D&D is the fixed nature of one's abilities often makes you feel gradually more and more harrowed by the shape of your prior and often poorly-made choices.

I'm an optimizer because of my own regrets... I haz dork and troubled pastz, plz?

[sofawall]

I love retraining, and in my games (where continuity isn't an issue), players will often swap out one character for another, just because they got bored of a character. I allow it, why not? They have fun that way, and I'm never bored, checking them over for infinite loops :D

[Kylarra]

Personally, I wouldn't make him pay. My great regret about D&D is the fixed nature of one's abilities often makes you feel gradually more and more harrowed by the shape of your prior and often poorly-made choices.

I'm an optimizer because of my own regrets... I haz dork and troubled pastz, plz?I like the PHB2/4e limits on retraining, simply for continuity's sake, ie swapping only 1 thing per levelup.

Not a huge fan of rebuilds, although depending on the group, I might allow it in exchange for a quest or interaction with an artifact (probably obtained or journeyed to via a quest!).

[Gnaeus]

You only have the one pc in this game, right?

Since it isn't too big a change, I would allow it as a "Conceptual Rebuild". Let the PC swap it around, but with the understanding that it is the same character and should be played similarly, but with a mechanics change. Maybe make him keep the taboos for a little while, slowly realizing that he has surpassed his former limitations.

If you had a larger party of players, it becomes a bigger deal, because that kind of thing can spark a "Me too!" attitude, and then you have an entirely different party, and some players really don't like continuity shifts.

[Myou]

You only have the one pc in this game, right?

Since it isn't too big a change, I would allow it as a "Conceptual Rebuild". Let the PC swap it around, but with the understanding that it is the same character and should be played similarly, but with a mechanics change. Maybe make him keep the taboos for a little while, slowly realizing that he has surpassed his former limitations.

If you had a larger party of players, it becomes a bigger deal, because that kind of thing can spark a "Me too!" attitude, and then you have an entirely different party, and some players really don't like continuity shifts.

Yes, luckily it's just the two of us.
If there were more people then I think I would have to impose requirements, probably a quest of some sort or just roleplaying it over a number of sessions.


Turn him into a girl to explain the charisma increase. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AttractiveBentGender)

Given that we're both gay in and out of character you really have that backwards, it would be more like nightmare fuel (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NightmareFuel).

And it would really put a spanner in the works of our character's burgeoning romance. :smallredface:

[Kylarra]

Given that we're both gay in and out of character you really have that backwards, it would be more like nightmare fuel (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NightmareFuel).

And it would really put a spanner in the works of our character's burgeoning romance. :smallredface:Well maybe it'll help your chars get closer as they try to find a solution. :smalltongue:

[Myou]

Well maybe it'll help your chars get closer as they try to find a solution. :smalltongue:

The Quest to Restore Sedana's Rod of Lordly Might While Making a DC 30 Fortitude Save or be Nauseated Every Round. :smalltongue:

And neither of us has points in Craft (Genitalia) either! ><