LA and RHD

[Lex315]

how do Racial Hit Die and Level adjustment differ? i was looking at a thing for black etherguant, it says its a +4LA but then someone said its got 16 RHD so its actually lvl +20 for ECL, how does this work? thanks in advance

[sofawall]

RHD give hit dice, saves, base attack bonus etc.

LA is just useless and dead.

They are added together for Effective Character Level, or ECL.

[Kylarra]

That's more or less correct. RHD represent "levels" taken in your racial class, and the level adjustment is the approximate boost in overall power that your racial abilities provide over the average (LA 0) race, to create your effective character level.

RHD + LA = ECL

[sofawall]

Also, RHD are NOT CLASS LEVELS!

I saw someone try to take the 16 RHD on an Ethergaunt and make them all wizard... "Look, level 33 wizard casting at level 20!" Ugh...

[KillianHawkeye]

Also, RHD are NOT CLASS LEVELS!

I saw someone try to take the 16 RHD on an Ethergaunt and make them all wizard... "Look, level 33 wizard casting at level 20!" Ugh...

Correct. RHD are Hit Dice that only grant BAB/Saves/Skill Points, as determined by your creature type.

[Random832]

Correct. RHD are Hit Dice that only grant BAB/Saves/Skill Points, as determined by your creature type.

And feats at every third one.

Oh, and Ethergaunts' natural spellcasting ability explicitly stacks with Wizard levels. But remember, if you're starting the human PCs at level 20, you should start the white ethergaunt PC at level 4 [which makes 17 wizard caster level if all four levels are in wizard], and they earn XP and level as a 20th level character. You shouldn't allow a white ethergaunt at class level 20 unless you are in an epic campaign with human PCs all at level 36.

So in other words, sofawall, your player was absolutely correct - but such a character would only be allowed in an ECL36 epic campaign. (in which case those 33 wizard caster levels are absolutely appropriate.)

Remember:

16th level humans = White Ethergaunt with NO class levels with 11d8 HD and 13th-level wizard casting.

20th level humans = 4th level White Ethergaunt Wizard with 11d8+4d4=15HD and 17th-level casting.

36th level humans = 20th level White Ethergaunt Wizard with 11d8+20d4=31HD and 33rd-level casting.

{table]ECL|Level|CL|HD
16|0|13|11
17|1|14|12
18|2|15|13
19|3|16|14
20|4|17|15[/table]

[Kylarra]

And feats at every third one.
and ability score increases every 4th. :smalltongue:

[sofawall]

And feats at every third one.

Oh, and Ethergaunts' natural spellcasting ability explicitly stacks with Wizard levels. But remember, if you're starting the human PCs at level 20, you should start the white ethergaunt PC at level 4 [which makes 17 wizard caster level if all four levels are in wizard], and they earn XP and level as a 20th level character. You shouldn't allow a white ethergaunt at class level 20 unless you are in an epic campaign with human PCs all at level 36.

So in other words, sofawall, your player was absolutely correct - but such a character would only be allowed in an ECL36 epic campaign. (in which case those 33 wizard caster levels are absolutely appropriate.)

In other words, no, he was not correct. You cannot turn 16 RHD into wizard levels. He had 16 wizard/4 LA, not 16 wizard/16RHD/4 LA. He was downright wrong.

EDIT: Ability points are something I always forget. Aren't they included in racial stat mods?

[Kylarra]

Ability points are something I always forget. They're included, right?They're included (like feats) in already calculated RHD, but if you're improving monsters, they still get them every multiple of 4.

[sofawall]

Ah, yes, I was assuming it was for a PC, which has very little reason (or ability) to take RHD.

The only HD worth it, in my opinion, are Outsider and Dragon.

But never for a spellcaster.

[Milskidasith]

Aren't Dragon HD really, really slow to increase? I mean, aren't they like 50-60 HD by CR 25 or so?

[Kylarra]

Ah, yes, I was assuming it was for a PC, which has very little reason (or ability) to take RHD.

The only HD worth it, in my opinion, are Outsider and Dragon.

But never for a spellcaster.Pretty much. Everything else is craptastic. :smallfrown:

[Random832]

In other words, no, he was not correct. You cannot turn 16 RHD into wizard levels. He had 16 wizard/4 LA, not 16 wizard/16RHD/4 LA. He was downright wrong.

White Ethergaunts come with 13th-level wizard casting with no class levels, independent of their RHD. 13+20=33. He was correct, and you misread what he was saying as "turning RHD into wizard levels".

It's not the RHD. It's a racial feature, and actually a caster level _higher_ than the RHD, since there's only 11 RHD. It stacks with wizard levels. It's lower than the ECL, so you can't even make the argument that it's unbalanced.

Think of it as "Racial Caster Levels" if it helps you understand the concept.

Hit points = 11d8+20d4 = average 99, 31 Hit dice
ECL = LA 5 + 11 RHD + 20 Wizard Levels = 36
Spellcasting level = 13 Ethergaunt Casting + 20 Wizard Levels = 33

These are separate formulas. This was not an attempt to convert RHD into class levels.

His only mistake was saying "at level 20" for a character with a character level of 31 and an ECL of [assuming no buyoff] 36. "33rd level wizard casting at ECL 36" or even "33rd level wizard casting at level 31" sounds a lot more reasonable, doesn't it?

And it only works with wizard - you can't turn that into 13 levels of sneak attack progression or even sorcerer casting.

It is in the creature description.

[sofawall]

NO I DID NOT MISUNDERSTAND WHAT HE WAS SAYING. FACCKKK!!!!!

I know exactly how it works. I know it stacks. This is NOT what he was doing.

He was replacing the RHD with wizard levels, but keeping the 17 wizard levels it was supposed to give him. It was an ECL 20 character, the way he thought it worked, but with level 33 casting.

How would you even know? How do you know what he said? Or wrote on his sheet? I know how RHD, ECL and LA work, with class levels. I understand racial casting. I KNOW WHAT I AM SAYING. STOP SAYING I'M WRONG WHEN YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE EVENT!

Dang, how many times do I have to say that. I know how it works, he did it wrong, fack.

EDIT: Or however many levels of casting it gave, it was a while ago and I forget which colour he was. He was replacing though, not adding, he thought at ECL 20, he was packing epic level wizard casting. How many ways to I have to say that?

[Random832]

Well, you didn't say he said "at ECL 20" at all. Are you sure you remember this right?

Because even if you COULD do that, doing the math the way you think he did it you'd only get 15 wizard levels (LA +5), and your total casting level would only be 28, not 33.

And since 33 really _is_ the right answer for an ECL 36 White Ethergaunt, and you only said he said "level 20", that seemed like a more reasonable interpretation.

Remember, all you actually said he said was "Look, level 33 wizard casting at level 20!", which is one way to describe a class level 20 character with a caster level of 33.

It's not my fault TSR didn't invest in a thesaurus.

[sofawall]

Yes, he was worknig on ECL 20. That's how I speak, I cal ECL levels. Bad habit. (EDIT: One I picked up from him, actually... Yeah, he was into D&D first, but my rules-fu quickly surpassed his)

EDIT: Normal Black Ethergaunt: 16 Aberration/4 LA, 20 ECL, 17th casting.
Friend's Advanced Black Ethergaunt: 16 Wizard/4 LA, 20 ECL, 33rd casting.
Real Advanced Black Ethergaunt: 16 Wizard/16 Aberration/4 LA, 36 ECL, 33rd casting.

That is how it went down.

[Random832]

ok well then send my explanation to him then i guess.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

[sofawall]

Note my edit above.

Also, it was years ago when I was the only one who understood all those things. He understands now, oh yes he does. :smallamused:

EDIT: No probs, I understand.