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View Full Version : [4E] Here it comes - the new setting's Dark Sun.



Cainen
2009-08-14, 11:53 AM
Source: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090814

There's not much I can say about this that isn't said there, but it won't stop me from paraphrasing.

Basically, they're trying to stick to most of Dark Sun's idiosyncracies instead of trying to shoehorn it into fitting 4E's current mold. As well, they're going with classic Dark Sun's timeline. On top of all that, at least some of the classes will be getting new options - the Fighter is the example given, though there are no new options actually shown. Or discussed beyond their namesake.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-14, 11:59 AM
Excellent. Looking forward to this immensely.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-14, 12:01 PM
I may actually have to play 4e now.

SilveryCord
2009-08-14, 12:02 PM
Hmmm this and PHB3 with its psionic options may actually convert me fully over to 4E.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-14, 12:04 PM
Wait a second... "Under 2nd Edition, Dark Sun was all about a grittier, action-packed feeling in a dark and dangerous world, and that’s going to map really well to the new edition and the baseline assumptions about the world."

Since when has 4E been gritty, dark or dangerous?

RTGoodman
2009-08-14, 12:06 PM
I dunno, but I totally called it. I'm SUPER excited about this now.

Edea
2009-08-14, 12:13 PM
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dark_sun_cg_b1y.jpg

I dunno about whether or not the discussion regarding Dark Sun at the bottom of the page is actually true or just a bunch of assuaging hot air, but this book cover? Badass.

Gamerlord
2009-08-14, 12:13 PM
I never heard about dark sun before, but anything post-apocalypse sounds awesome in my book.

Matthew
2009-08-14, 12:18 PM
I am actually very happy about this; I really hope that the Dark Sun Campaign Guide follows the methodology of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and I do not mean the way they moved the time line on, rather I mean that each area has a succinct description on which the game master can build in the manner of the D20 Wilderlands of High Fantasy boxed set. I am looking forward to this!

Tengu_temp
2009-08-14, 12:20 PM
The grittiest and most lethal AD&D setting (maybe apart from Ravenloft) gets converted to 4e? This will be either So Bad It's Good or just plain awesome. Either way, I win.

Also, I think Wizards intentionally wants to release this book in order to make oldtimers play 4e.

Moriato
2009-08-14, 12:25 PM
The grittiest and most lethal AD&D (maybe apart from Ravenloft) setting gets converted to 4e? This will be either So Bad It's Good or just plain awesome. Either way, I win.

I expect a lot of people to almost die in the desert. Oh, never mind one did. Oh wait, nevermind, he's ok.

Seriously though, dark sun was probably my least favorite campaign setting. Pretty much any world based on one terrain type will get boring to me after a while. Ice world, water world, or in this case, desert world.

Also I'm not a fan of 4e so that's like the mayonnaise icing on the crap cake right there.

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 12:27 PM
SMOKIN'

Righteously.

evildmguy
2009-08-14, 12:28 PM
YES!

I am so excited for this. I really liked DS more than my favorite at the time, FR, because it was so self contained. It didn't get more things tacked on to it as time went by, such as Maztica, Kara-Tur, etc. (And I don't hate them but it didn't seem to fit.)

So, very happy about this announcement! I already told my group, I am running DS after our current campaign. I am hopeful they will go along with me!

edg

RTGoodman
2009-08-14, 12:29 PM
Seriously though, dark sun was probably my least favorite campaign setting. Pretty much any world based on one terrain type will get boring to me after a while. Ice world, water world, or in this case, desert world.

I dunno about that - in the first three and a half books of the Prism Pentad (that's as far as I've gotten so far), there's desert, urban, mountain, jungle, crazy mutant-forest, and "sea" (though it's made of silt) environments. Yeah, desert kinda dominates, but it's for a reason in-setting, not just because someone got over-happy with Sandstorm ideas.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-14, 12:36 PM
Well, I called it...but I'm not all too happy about it, to be honest. FR got mutilated in the 4e transition, Eberron got a few "minor" tweaks (like "Hey guys, anyone can have any dragonmark now! Because PCs are special!"), and if their release of the Prism Pentad is any indication, Dark Sun will most likely include a few "minor tweaks" or "small updates" that ruin it.

Playing DS in general would be absolutely awesomtastically amazing, since I haven't found anyone willing to run it since I was playing 2e, but as for getting it as a setting...I guess I just don't trust WotC with it.

AgentPaper
2009-08-14, 12:39 PM
SMOKIN'

Righteously.

Ohmigod, it's AstralFire!

I admit to not knowing much about Dark Sun, but if that cover is any indication of the quality of the book, then I'm going to have to buy it. With extreme prejudice.

I'm also hoping that this will show that 4E can do dark and gritty just fine, with a few rather minor rule tweaks. (namely, reducing the rate of healing surge regeneration to Con mod/extended rest, or similar)

RTGoodman
2009-08-14, 12:43 PM
Well, I called it...but I'm not all too happy about it, to be honest. FR got mutilated in the 4e transition, Eberron got a few "minor" tweaks (like "Hey guys, anyone can have any dragonmark now! Because PCs are special!"), and if their release of the Prism Pentad is any indication, Dark Sun will most likely include a few "minor tweaks" or "small updates" that ruin it.

Actually, you might surprised. (Or James Wyatt might not be telling the whole truth.


James Wyatt: Our goal with the setting was to cleave as close to the original boxed set as possible while still allowing as many D&D options as we could and making the setting ideal for 4th Edition play. We’re in the process of re-releasing Troy Denning’s excellent Prism Pentad series of novels, and we didn’t want readers to come away from those books and look at the campaign setting and not recognize it as the same world. So we tried to capture the essence of the original Dark Sun boxed set while ensuring that the Prism Pentad novels could be one possible way things turn out.

Nai_Calus
2009-08-14, 12:43 PM
Expected, but still lame. Dark Sun is the setting that always makes me go 'ugh you couldn't pay me to play that ever', since it goes against... Pretty much everything I like in a setting ever. :smalltongue:

My usual PC types wouldn't survive childhood, and if they did they'd just go lie down in the desert somewhere and stab themselves with their stone-age knives to make the endless hopelessness and brutality stop. >_>

Blackfang108
2009-08-14, 12:47 PM
My usual PC types wouldn't survive childhood, and if they did they'd just go lie down in the desert somewhere and stab themselves with their stone-age knives to make the endless hopelessness and brutality stop. >_>

Athas does not favor Optimists. However, Emo Kids die even quicker.:smalltongue:

Sipex
2009-08-14, 12:48 PM
I'm excited, I've never played or even heard of dark sun until now (I'm new to the hobby) so I'll be able to enjoy it without ever going "But it originally had this, or this"

Nai_Calus
2009-08-14, 12:58 PM
Athas does not favor Optimists. However, Emo Kids die even quicker.:smalltongue:

Yeah, I make a lot of Chaotic Good optimistic merciful compassionate dyed-in-the-wool Nice Guys who want to make the world a better place. It's what I like. I also like optimism and hope for the future and worlds that are a decent place that needs saving from becoming ****holes like Athas already is. :smalltongue: I also make characters that are deeply religious in contrast to my near-atheism so that doesn't work either.

I don't want to make brutal petty survivalist me-first characters of the sort that seem required for Dark Sun, because I get enough of that in the real world. <_> Thus!

Seriously Shadowrun is the darkest I get. Anything past that I don't care anymore it's too depressing, I'd rather spend my leisure time doing something I enjoy, like shoving icepicks under my toenails. :smallbiggrin:

Edea
2009-08-14, 01:02 PM
I am curious as to what sorts of mechanical changes might be introduced to make 4e 'cleave as close to the original boxed set as possible'. Unlike FR or Eberron, for example, Dark Sun's apparently got some class exclusivity (in particular paladins, monks, and sorcerers); I sincerely doubt they'll ban those again, so what they'll do to explain the presence of those kinds of PC characters is a mystery to me.

Nai_Calus
2009-08-14, 01:09 PM
The new version's focus will be on the 50,000 survivors of Athas after the Warforged nuked the planet, as they search desperately for a mythical planet named Htrae in their fleet of spelljammer ships, while fighting off more Warforged attacks.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-14, 01:09 PM
what they'll do to explain the presence of those kinds of PC characters is a mystery to me.

Probably the same as what they did to explain the presence of dragonborn and warforged in the Realms :smalltongue:

So anyway - it would seem that every setting book gets a few new races, one special "semi power source" (spellscars and dragonmarks, resp) and one new class. One race for Dark Sun is obviously the half-giant (although that feels similar to a goliath, really); but anyone have guesses what the others will be? The class would probably be defiler, I suppose.

RTGoodman
2009-08-14, 01:12 PM
One race for Dark Sun is obviously the half-giant (although that feels similar to a goliath, really); but anyone have guesses what the others will be?

Mul is kind of an iconic one, and they've already mentioned Thri-Kreen, and I think they're one a lot of people will want to play. Outside that, well, there's a handful of others that I don't know about (lizardy people, birdy people, etc.), which would be at least NPC races.


The class would probably be defiler, I suppose.

I dunno - defiling and preserving could probably be a non-class mechanic, somehow. Guess we'll just have to wait and see, though.

Thane of Fife
2009-08-14, 01:14 PM
Probably the same as what they did to explain the presence of dragonborn and warforged in the Realms :smalltongue:

So anyway - it would seem that every setting book gets a few new races, one special "semi power source" (spellscars and dragonmarks, resp) and one new class. One race for Dark Sun is obviously the half-giant (although that feels similar to a goliath, really); but anyone have guesses what the others will be? The class would probably be defiler, I suppose.

I would expect Half-Giants, Muls (maybe), and Thri-Kreen as races, and probably Templars as a class - or maybe an Athasian Bard.

Also, I am completely dumbfounded that people are raving over that cover - I think it looks awful.

valadil
2009-08-14, 01:17 PM
I like everything I've heard about Dark Sun and I'm glad to have the chance to try it. I just hope it's not some watered down diet Dark Sun. That would kinda defeat the purpose.

Natael
2009-08-14, 01:18 PM
Yeah, I make a lot of Chaotic Good optimistic merciful compassionate dyed-in-the-wool Nice Guys who want to make the world a better place. It's what I like. I also like optimism and hope for the future and worlds that are a decent place that needs saving from becoming ****holes like Athas already is. :smalltongue: I also make characters that are deeply religious in contrast to my near-atheism so that doesn't work either.

I don't want to make brutal petty survivalist me-first characters of the sort that seem required for Dark Sun, because I get enough of that in the real world. <_> Thus!

Seriously Shadowrun is the darkest I get. Anything past that I don't care anymore it's too depressing, I'd rather spend my leisure time doing something I enjoy, like shoving icepicks under my toenails. :smallbiggrin:

You could definitely play an optimist on Athas, the dragon kings can be overthrown, look at Tyr. There are, to my knowledge, reasonable movements to make things better in the deserty area, and potentially much of the world yet to be discovered.

TheThan
2009-08-14, 01:28 PM
Wow, I’m surprised they are actually doing dark sun. Seriously though this is great news. They are finally doing something with their older setting they had lying around.

This is possibly the best thing I’ve heard today (well read but still).

Yora
2009-08-14, 01:31 PM
I'm surprised Dark Sun fans are actually happy about this. Remembering what they made of the Forgotten Realms, which is a far more mainstream setting.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-14, 01:34 PM
Mul is kind of an iconic one, and they've already mentioned Thri-Kreen, and I think they're one a lot of people will want to play. Outside that, well, there's a handful of others that I don't know about (lizardy people, birdy people, etc.), which would be at least NPC races.

Hm, good point. Thri-Kreen would definitely be in. Aarakocra, though, I can't really imagine 4E printing a flying race, because, y'know, balance and all that. Mul would work, I think, but I'm having a hard time thinking up interesting racial abilities; there's just so many nearly-identical races around...

And templar would probably be a better class than defiler, yeah. I can imagine the latter being a feat, e.g. that lets you do +2 damage on a spell if you drain life from a nearby plant, or something like that.

NorseItalian
2009-08-14, 01:37 PM
Huh. I was expecting Dragonlance first. Oh well, as Ravemloft will probably just be an expansion to the Shadowfell and the chances of any new Mystara are slim to none.... Ysy Dark Sun!

Tehnar
2009-08-14, 01:41 PM
I haven't played in the Dark Sun, but 4e doesn't seem very suited for it IMO. A setting that allows you to suffer no ill effects for going 2 weeks without food for me does not translate into gritty.

SuperMuldoon
2009-08-14, 01:45 PM
yesssssssssssssssssssss! Let us all await the return of the Squark!

alchemyprime
2009-08-14, 01:54 PM
Oh my god... Eberron. Dark Sun. All we need is Spelljammer, and the Triad of Greatest Settings Ever will be complete!

(Well... at least until someone makes Skies of Arcadia into a setting. :smallwink:)

Lord Loss
2009-08-14, 01:56 PM
I'll obviously buy the setting, then convert it to 3.5 :smallmad: WHY can't they do it in 3.5!!! The best setting ever and it skips the best FRIGGEN edition! NOOOOOOOOOO!

Okay, I'm done.

TheThan
2009-08-14, 01:58 PM
I'll obviously buy the setting, then convert it to 3.5 :smallmad: WHY can't they do it in 3.5!!! The best setting ever and it skips the best FRIGGEN edition! NOOOOOOOOOO!

Okay, I'm done.
actually they did:

http://athas.org/

RTGoodman
2009-08-14, 02:07 PM
actually they did:

http://athas.org/

And Paizo published their own version, too. You can look it up on Wikipedia or elsewhere to find the specific Dragon/Dungeon issues.

As for 4E Mul traits, it might be something like +2 Con, +2 to one other score, resist 1 all damage (increase to 3 at paragon tier, and 5 at epic tier), +2 to Athletics and Endurance, and maybe a bonus on saves against ongoing damage.

Gralamin
2009-08-14, 02:30 PM
I haven't played in the Dark Sun, but 4e doesn't seem very suited for it IMO. A setting that allows you to suffer no ill effects for going 2 weeks without food for me does not translate into gritty.

A few optional rules, and suddenly it works. Make Healing surges take longer to recharge, Change how long before you start making Endurance checks, etc. Its really not that difficult to think of rules to do so.

TheThan
2009-08-14, 02:32 PM
And Paizo published their own version, too. You can look it up on Wikipedia or elsewhere to find the specific Dragon/Dungeon issues.

As for 4E Mul traits, it might be something like +2 Con, +2 to one other score, resist 1 all damage (increase to 3 at paragon tier, and 5 at epic tier), +2 to Athletics and Endurance, and maybe a bonus on saves against ongoing damage.

yeah, dragon 110 and dungeon 319

Athaniar
2009-08-14, 02:55 PM
Also, Dragon 315, the Campaign Classics special, featured some Dark Sun stuff, along with everything else.

I'm not familiar with this setting, so it'll be interesting to learn more about it when they release the book.

hamishspence
2009-08-14, 03:04 PM
Isn't it Dragon 319 that had Dark Sun?

Its one of the few 3.5 Dragons I've not read- anything especially good?

Athaniar
2009-08-14, 03:15 PM
315 is the Campaign Classics issue, featuring 3E material for Ravenloft, Dark Sun (defiler magic), Dragonlance, Al-Qadim, Planescape, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Ghostwalk, Kara-Tur, Hollow World, Red Steel, Mystara Taladas, Birthright, Blackmoor, Masque of Red Death, Sundered Empire, and Maztica.

Aron Times
2009-08-14, 03:19 PM
You don't need to change anything to get the grim and gritty feel that Dark Sun had in previous editions. Liberal use of effects that make the PCs lose healing surges should be more than enough.

Failed an Endurance check to cross the desert? Lose one or two healing surges. Failed a Nature check to forage for food? Lose a couple more. Failed an Arcana check to navigate using the stars? Yep, lose a few more. Healing that doesn't require healing surges is pretty rare in 4E, so a party that runs out of them will have problems keeping their HP up.

Do not underestimate the effects of healing surge-draining effects. When used on a target with no healing surges left, Healing Word restores only 1 HP. You will get hit a lot in 4E, so two 1-HP Healing Words per encounter will not be enough.

The key to remember here is that level 1 PCs are basically Olympic athletes. A level 1 fighter is as rare as a level 1 wizard. The vast majority of people, those that would perish when subjected to the extremes that adventurers frequently encounter, don't have class levels, if they have stats at all.

I'm thinking that travel in Athas might be handled as a skill challenge, maybe from level 1 to level 10. A level 1 skill challenge would be for traveling within a short radius away from civilization, while a level 10 skill challenge would be for traveling in Hell on Earth (Athas).

I figure that paragon tier characters will have no trouble traveling in Athas's barren wastes due to the magic at their disposal. By paragon tier, the cost of Everlasting Provisions should be loose change.

TheThan
2009-08-14, 03:26 PM
Isn't it Dragon 319 that had Dark Sun?

Its one of the few 3.5 Dragons I've not read- anything especially good?

oops typo, I meant dragon 319 and dungeon 110

Elderac
2009-08-14, 03:31 PM
Not every setting is going to appeal to every player or GM. At the moment, I don't have any plans on running a Dark Sun campaign as I expect my current campaigns will still be on going, especially the Eberron Age of Worms campaign were I just recently started.

I do plan to purchase the PH and CG for Dark Sun, because there are always things that can be mined. Also, of of the GM's in our group might want to run a Dark Sun campaign.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-14, 03:34 PM
You don't need to change anything to get the grim and gritty feel that Dark Sun had in previous editions. Liberal use of effects that make the PCs lose healing surges should be more than enough.
I don't think so - because LFR is full of effects that make you lose healing surges, and frankly most players don't care.

What would be needed here is to step away from the rule that fully heals you after six hours of rest.

Edea
2009-08-14, 03:37 PM
Probably the same as what they did to explain the presence of dragonborn and warforged in the Realms :smalltongue:


Alternate version of Athas merges with the original due to sorcerer-king meddling? :(

erikun
2009-08-14, 03:41 PM
Alternate version of Athas merges with the original due to sorcerer-king meddling? :(
Perhaps "explaining Gensai in Eberron" would have been a better comparison. The alternate-reality merge was pretty... odd. :smallannoyed:

hamishspence
2009-08-14, 03:45 PM
The Player's Guide to Eberron 4th ed provided half a dozen different possible origins for Genasi and basically it's "pick your favourite"

Which was not a bad way of doing it.

jmbrown
2009-08-14, 03:45 PM
I'm surprised Dark Sun fans are actually happy about this. Remembering what they made of the Forgotten Realms, which is a far more mainstream setting.

Forgotten Realms was destroyed to give D&D a generic setting in order to match the new rules. It's 4E's Greyhawk except now they don't have to give money to Gygax's family.


I haven't played in the Dark Sun, but 4e doesn't seem very suited for it IMO. A setting that allows you to suffer no ill effects for going 2 weeks without food for me does not translate into gritty.

Starving or dehydrating removes your healing surges which is the only means of healing in 4E. You don't regain those surges back until after you've ate/drank. Creating food and water costs money too. The "rule of threes" is stupid IMO (3 weeks for food, 3 days for water) but the DC 20/+5 per day check is pretty hefty.

The 4E rules would work perfectly if they cut down on the time required. 1 week for food, 1 day for water. You should lose more healing surges depending on the terrain (2 or 3 for hot wastelands or something). Once your healing surges run out you lose your second wind value per day in hp giving characters approximately 4 more days until they pass out.

Regardless, getting picked off by monsters while starving is more common in 4E than actually dying as a result of deprecation. Without your surges you're fodder for monsters.


I am curious as to what sorts of mechanical changes might be introduced to make 4e 'cleave as close to the original boxed set as possible'. Unlike FR or Eberron, for example, Dark Sun's apparently got some class exclusivity (in particular paladins, monks, and sorcerers); I sincerely doubt they'll ban those again, so what they'll do to explain the presence of those kinds of PC characters is a mystery to me.

There's no explanation given for the removal of paladins but its likely because of the alignment restriction and service to a god. None of this is a concern in 4E. Paladins will likely replace templars (who essentially replaced paladins), warrior priests who directly served the sorcerer kings. Defilers are close to sorcerers flavor wise and sorcerers will likely get defiler as a class option. There are no traditional monasteries in Dark Sun so I don't know how monk will fit in.

As far as the races, Dark Sun is cut off from the rest of the universe. Goliaths will likely replace half-giants, shifters, orcs, and gnomes have their place, Athas is strongly tied to the elements so genasi aren't a far stretch, and halflings are cannibals. The only two races that would be a stretch to include are devas and dragonborn. Devas will likely be sorcerer-king descendants taking on the memories of past lives while dragonborn will probably have evolved somewhere secluded and be outcasts in the world.

As one can tell I love Dark Sun and the developers of 4E worked on Dark Sun so I've got my fingers crossed they don't blow it up like Forgotten Realms (which I didn't mind because I've never liked FR).

Aron Times
2009-08-14, 03:47 PM
I don't think so - because LFR is full of effects that make you lose healing surges, and frankly most players don't care.

What would be needed here is to step away from the rule that fully heals you after six hours of rest.
The LFR is a very bad example because its modules are very easy; they were basically written for nonoptimized characters. With any sort of optimization, LFR modules become incredibly easy.

My group plays the high version of the adventure at the minimum level required to play it. Thus, for a 1 to 4 adventure, we play the high version at level 1. For a 4 to 7 adventure, we play the high version at level 4, and so on. LFR modules are just that easy for moderately optimized characters.

You don't need to change the rules of taking extended rests. Simply do not allow extended rests while the party is exposed to the elements. And if they do find a place to rest, well, good for them! They are the heroes of the story, after all.

Edea
2009-08-14, 03:52 PM
Oooh, a 'Defiler Magic' Spell Source feature, wonder what that might include.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-14, 04:20 PM
I've always been curious about Dark Sun, but I feel leery of this. Judging by what I've heard of the setting, there's no real room for the kind of character archetype I like to play (The selfless knight-in-shining-armor type who dedicates his life to spreading justice and hope wherever he goes)

hamishspence
2009-08-14, 04:23 PM
It might be atypical of the setting, but its probably not impossible.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-14, 04:34 PM
I was under the impression that altruism and integrity only got you killed in this setting, either from less scrupulous survivors who want what you have or from the harsh desert landscape after you've given your last bit of water to a beggar on the edge of town before leaving.

RTGoodman
2009-08-14, 04:52 PM
Knight in shining armor? Yeah, that's probably out. Altruism, justice, and all that? Nope, it's definitely doable. It's just not common.

Corvus
2009-08-14, 05:06 PM
Very happy to hear this. Dark Sun was the only setting TSR/WotC that interested m in the slightest and was the only one I ever bought.

Looking forward to it just so I can be exceedingly brutal on my players.

jmbrown
2009-08-14, 05:15 PM
I was under the impression that altruism and integrity only got you killed in this setting, either from less scrupulous survivors who want what you have or from the harsh desert landscape after you've given your last bit of water to a beggar on the edge of town before leaving.

Dark Sun is a world of opportunists, ravaging monsters, and power hungry warlords. People are both ingratiated and wary about good people because generally when someone offers something there's a price tag attached to it. You can play the knight-in-shining-armor but you'll be a larger target for opportunists, swindlers, and thieves thanks to that "shining armor" of yours.

The original campaign book stressed "epic heroes" and grand adventures but most PCs are closer to Conan or Odysseus (in terms of morality) than King Arthur.

Hallavast
2009-08-14, 05:29 PM
I may actually have to play 4e now.

Pfft. I hardly see why an awesome setting would convince you to use a system you otherwise wouldn't. The two things are rather separate from each other, don't you agree?

That said, I'm rather interested in looking at what they've done with it. Doesn't mean i'll pickup 4e though.

Umael
2009-08-14, 06:03 PM
*read*
*read*
*read*


The "rule of threes" is stupid IMO (3 weeks for food, 3 days for water) but the DC 20/+5 per day check is pretty hefty.


SCRREEECH!!

Wait, what?

There is a rule in 4e that says you start suffering from a lack of water after three days and from a lack of food after three weeks??

And you find it stupid?!??

That is the rule of thumb for real life! Yes, people have lived longer than that, but there is a reason why your PCs start taking DC checks after then.

3 minutes without air.
3 hours without warmth.
3 days without water.
3 weeks without food.

AslanCross
2009-08-14, 06:08 PM
Interesting. This might get me to actually try and play 4E. Not enough to make me switch, though.

orchitect
2009-08-14, 06:09 PM
Cool. I like the Dark Sun books. It looks like I'll have a reason to learn DnD now! :smallbiggrin:

KIDS
2009-08-14, 06:11 PM
Thanks so much for that info, Umael! I always thought of that "3" rule as fine but probably not realistic. The fact that it actually matches the US Army Field Manual warms my heart (and allows me to skip an endurance check for hypothermia) :)

Dark Sun will be a must have for me, as I've been itching to play it for a long time but never got around to it. I expect all the best.

jmbrown
2009-08-14, 06:56 PM
*read*
*read*
*read*



SCRREEECH!!

Wait, what?

There is a rule in 4e that says you start suffering from a lack of water after three days and from a lack of food after three weeks??

And you find it stupid?!??

That is the rule of thumb for real life! Yes, people have lived longer than that, but there is a reason why your PCs start taking DC checks after then.

3 minutes without air.
3 hours without warmth.
3 days without water.
3 weeks without food.

It's too long IMO. The body goes in catabolysis in less than a week. This depends on health, but even the strongest human should experience the effects of starvation (IE losing a healing surge) within a week, not 3 weeks. The average human in a temperate climate will be dehydrated after 24 hours without liquids.

1 day without water and 1 week without food are good limits. 3 minutes of air makes sense because a human can survive in a vacuum around that time before serious brain damage occurs. I understand this is a fantasy game, but 3 weeks is ridiculously long, you only lose 1 healing surge per day and only your level in hit points meaning level 1 characters can literally go a month without drinking! For a level 1 character, tack on an extra 2 weeks while passed out before they hit their bloodied value and die.

Under the standard 4E rules, higher level characters actually die faster of deprivation than level 1 characters. Does that make any sense at all?

Edit: the math.

A level 1 cleric with 10 constitution has 22 hit points and 7 healing surges. After 3 days he has to make a check to resist dehydration. Assuming he fails each check, he loses all of his healing surges in 7 days and begins taking 1 hit point per level per day. He falls unconscious after 22 days. He doesn't die until he hits his bloodied value 11 days later.

A level 1 character lived 43 days without water. 32 days conscious.

If that same character was level 2, he'd have 27 hit points and the same number of healing surges. After 10 days he begins losing hit points at a rate of 1 per level or 2 hp per day. He goes to -1 after 14 days and hits -15 (which kills him) after 7.

A level 2 character lived 31 days without water. 24 days conscious.

Needless to say, the majority of D&D's NPC explorers and travelers must go to great lengths to avoid gaining NPC or else they just killed their chances of wilderness survival. Granted, your endurance check goes up as you level (which helps your save) but it's still retarded a level 25 character will die faster in the wild than a level 2.

Yeah, I like 4th edition and I looooove Dark Sun but the first thing I want to see are variant rules for how deprivation works namely 1 day without water + 1 healing surge lost an hour and 1 week of food +1 healing surge a day lost.

erikun
2009-08-14, 08:03 PM
That is the rule of thumb for real life! Yes, people have lived longer than that, but there is a reason why your PCs start taking DC checks after then.
Yeah, but remember that those are how long a person is expected to survive. The limits in 4e are how long characters are expected to survive without penality. Having a character survive 3+ days without water should be impressive, but having them survive 3 days before starting to feel the effects of dehydration is a bit much. If you start taking penalities after the first day of no water - no HP recovery, no healing surge recovery, no daily powers recovery - then they'll be in really bad shape by the third day.

Hmm... that makes me wonder. Perhaps the survival system will instead be "make a death saving throw every day without water, every week without food, etc." which doesn't reset until you get water/food and a night's rest? It would certainly be more reasonable (and deadly) than just trying to drain healing surges from a Paladin or Warden, after all.

jmbrown
2009-08-14, 08:07 PM
Oh yeah, I didn't take into account the death saving throw in my calculation. Still, a higher level character has fewer days to live than a lower level one. Once you hit 0 hp you start making saves per round and since you have no healing surges left you can't be stabilized by rolling a natural 20. Basically once you hit zero you're pretty much dead.

Still, a month without water minimum. Sheesh.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-14, 08:16 PM
AAah. Aahahahaha. So good. Oh god yes.
I wants it, precious, I wants it now!


Also; Ravenloft Board Game? Colour me intruiged.

FoE
2009-08-14, 08:43 PM
his depends on health, but even the strongest human should experience the effects of starvation (IE losing a healing surge) within a week, not 3 weeks. The average human in a temperate climate will be dehydrated after 24 hours without liquids.

Most PCs aren't human.

jmbrown
2009-08-14, 08:49 PM
Most PCs aren't human.

But all 4E PC races are humanoid and it's assumed their bodies have the same organs which function identical to humans.


Also; Ravenloft Board Game? Colour me intruiged.

Do not pass Bavoria church. Do not survive against blaspheme.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-14, 09:38 PM
Dark Sun is a world of opportunists, ravaging monsters, and power hungry warlords. People are both ingratiated and wary about good people because generally when someone offers something there's a price tag attached to it. You can play the knight-in-shining-armor but you'll be a larger target for opportunists, swindlers, and thieves thanks to that "shining armor" of yours.

The original campaign book stressed "epic heroes" and grand adventures but most PCs are closer to Conan or Odysseus (in terms of morality) than King Arthur.

Ohhhh now I get it! Though, to be fair, King Arthur had his own little indiscretions (like sleeping with his sister and mass-murdering babies).

And I know that actual shining armor would be impossible to find, given that actual metal is pretty rare on Athas.

NEO|Phyte
2009-08-14, 09:40 PM
But all 4E PC races are humanoid and it's assumed their bodies have the same organs which function identical to humans.
Even warforged?
(yes, I understand your point, just feel like poking at it a bit)

Kaihaku
2009-08-14, 10:32 PM
Well, I called it...but I'm not all too happy about it, to be honest. FR got mutilated in the 4e transition, Eberron got a few "minor" tweaks (like "Hey guys, anyone can have any dragonmark now! Because PCs are special!"), and if their release of the Prism Pentad is any indication, Dark Sun will most likely include a few "minor tweaks" or "small updates" that ruin it.

Playing DS in general would be absolutely awesomtastically amazing, since I haven't found anyone willing to run it since I was playing 2e, but as for getting it as a setting...I guess I just don't trust WotC with it.

Agreed on all accounts.

Don the Bastard
2009-08-15, 02:15 AM
I'm giddy as a school girl over this!!!

Kurald Galain
2009-08-15, 04:31 AM
There is a rule in 4e that says you start suffering from a lack of water after three days and from a lack of food after three weeks??

And you find it stupid?!??
Yes, because in real life those figures are for survival whereas in 4E those figures are for the first time you feel any effects whatsoever.

Sure, you can go without food for 3 weeks. Wanna bet that you're no longer in peak shape after two days?

Sebastian
2009-08-15, 07:56 AM
I expect a lot of people to almost die in the desert. Oh, never mind one did. Oh wait, nevermind, he's ok.

Seriously though, dark sun was probably my least favorite campaign setting. Pretty much any world based on one terrain type will get boring to me after a while. Ice world, water world, or in this case, desert world.

Also I'm not a fan of 4e so that's like the mayonnaise icing on the crap cake right there.

By 4e rules a 1st level fighter with 12 Con can survive 40 day without water.

This assuming he fail all the endurance checks, if he succeed he could gain 1 or 2 days more.

Yes, the perfect rules for a game based around survival in harsh ambiental conditions. :smalltongue:

Sebastian
2009-08-15, 08:32 AM
I've always been curious about Dark Sun, but I feel leery of this. Judging by what I've heard of the setting, there's no real room for the kind of character archetype I like to play (The selfless knight-in-shining-armor type who dedicates his life to spreading justice and hope wherever he goes)

At the very least you must forget the shining armor, metals in dark sun are too rare to use it for armors. :)

bosssmiley
2009-08-15, 09:30 AM
4E Dark Sun? Brace for gameworld/mechanics dissonance.

Dark Sun is about survival against the odds in a harsh and uncaring world. It is about difficult moral choices and lasting consequences to one's actions. 4E mechanics as written do not support these tropes.

Oh well. At least they didn't decide to play corpse puppets with "Planescape". :smallannoyed:

@v: yes, because WOTC has a perfect track record on never ever claiming one thing in their press releases and then bait-and-switching for another in their published material.

NEO|Phyte
2009-08-15, 09:37 AM
I like how everyone assumes they'll just slap DS over the top of the 4e mechanics when WotC, including the people that made the first DS, has said that they're going to be altering the core 4e mechanics for this.

And by like, I mean facepalm over.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-15, 09:42 AM
I like how everyone assumes they'll just slap DS over the top of the 4e mechanics when WotC, including the people that made the first DS, has said that they're going to be altering the core 4e mechanics for this.

And by like, I mean facepalm over.

There's no point debating the various viewpoints when this little information has been released. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. We'll just have to wait and see.

RTGoodman
2009-08-15, 09:43 AM
There's no point debating the various viewpoints when this little information has been released.

Like THAT's ever stopped anyone before.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-15, 09:57 AM
I like how everyone assumes they'll just slap DS over the top of the 4e mechanics when WotC, including the people that made the first DS, has said that they're going to be altering the core 4e mechanics for this.
No, those people you mention said that the 4E mechanics were a perfect fit, because 4E is so obviously about hardship and grittiness already.

NEO|Phyte
2009-08-15, 10:32 AM
No, those people you mention said that the 4E mechanics were a perfect fit, because 4E is so obviously about hardship and grittiness already.
Funny, I don't remember them saying that ALL of the 4e mechanics were a perfect fit. Plus, with quotes like
James Wyatt: Well, I can tell you for one thing that Rich and his team worked hard to make sure Dark Sun continued to feel like a place where the most dangerous enemy you face might be the world itself. It’s a brutal, harsh environment, and if that’s the kind of game you want to play, you’ll have ways to make survival beyond the walls of the city-states an adventure in itself. do you honestly believe they'll stick with the base 4e mechanics for surviving without food/water/whatever?

Yora
2009-08-15, 10:58 AM
Do I believe they use big words that don't actually describe the final product?

AstralFire
2009-08-15, 10:59 AM
Do I believe they use big words that don't actually describe the final product?


There's no point debating the various viewpoints when this little information has been released.

whitextwhy

Fiery Justice
2009-08-15, 11:33 AM
Sure, you can go without food for 3 weeks. Wanna bet that you're no longer in peak shape after two days?
Speaking as someone who regularly fasts 24-36 hours, I can tell you that it really isn't a huge effect on your stamina or good health (seriously, I did heavy lifting and then fought some on a fast day and it didn't mess me up at all). You'll get a little dizzy if you start moving suddenly but it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Two days, I'm told, is about the same. The worst days are the third through the seventh by all reputations, mostly because your body is purging unhealthy materials.

In relation to the bigger fasts, human metabolism and activity vary, a person can fast 21-40 days before starvation kicks in and you begin suffering seriously from it. Water is more concrete in its problems. Three days is the maximum before permanent damage begins to occur. I can only imagine a desert atmosphere would make it worse.

SurlySeraph
2009-08-15, 12:31 PM
Wait a second... "Under 2nd Edition, Dark Sun was all about a grittier, action-packed feeling in a dark and dangerous world, and that’s going to map really well to the new edition and the baseline assumptions about the world."

Since when has 4E been gritty, dark or dangerous?

They'll definitely have some setting-specific rules to model it better.

For example: healing surges function by sucking the lifeforce out of orphaned puppies.

Leon
2009-08-15, 01:10 PM
I'm surprised Dark Sun fans are actually happy about this. Remembering what they made of the Forgotten Realms, which is a far more mainstream setting.

Dark Sun fan here that wont be happy with it till i see what they do to it

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-08-15, 01:25 PM
I have another question about Dark Sun. If I remember correctly, there are no actual priests or clerics on Athas, since the one god of the universe is an evil, mass-murdering, world-defiling psychopath. Does that mean that the Divine power source won't get that much attention in this setting, or even none at all?

Shadow_Elf
2009-08-15, 01:27 PM
I have another question about Dark Sun. If I remember correctly, there are no actual priests or clerics on Athas, since the one god of the universe is an evil, mass-murdering, world-defiling psychopath. Does that mean that the Divine power source won't get that much attention in this setting, or even none at all?

The announcement article mentioned divine classes drawing their power by worshiping elemental spirits, or something. Which means that in Dark Sun, the Divine power source will look a bit like a mix of the core Divine power source, and the Primal and Arcane power sources, in terms of fluff, as far as I can tell.

jmbrown
2009-08-15, 01:32 PM
I have another question about Dark Sun. If I remember correctly, there are no actual priests or clerics on Athas, since the one god of the universe is an evil, mass-murdering, world-defiling psychopath. Does that mean that the Divine power source won't get that much attention in this setting, or even none at all?

Clerics were in the original setting but they drew power from the elements because all the gods were either dead, left, or couldn't get passed the magic barrier that blocks Athas from the rest of the multiverse.

Clerics in 4E are faith inspired meaning their power comes through belief alone. Whether it's a philosophy or idea is up to the cleric so long as they have faith in it. Same goes for paladins in 4E. Avengers and invokers are a bit different but all you have to do is change two sentences around and they work in the Dark Sun setting.

Natael
2009-08-15, 02:47 PM
Clerics were in the original setting but they drew power from the elements because all the gods were either dead, left, or couldn't get passed the magic barrier that blocks Athas from the rest of the multiverse.

Clerics in 4E are faith inspired meaning their power comes through belief alone. Whether it's a philosophy or idea is up to the cleric so long as they have faith in it. Same goes for paladins in 4E. Avengers and invokers are a bit different but all you have to do is change two sentences around and they work in the Dark Sun setting.

This is that obtaining power from faith alone is not how Dark Sun works. Mechanically changing it so clerics require an elemental pact, druids get extra power in their protected land, removing Dragonborn and Eladrin, making Elves tall and good in the heat, and keeping the Shadowfell blocked off are perfectly reasonable things for them to be doing in 4e Dark Sun. They changed 2e Dark Sun a lot from the basic AD&D race/class mechanics, no good reason they will not do the same in 4e.

Keeping true Half-Giants, letting players be Arakokra, removing powers from being obtained from pure faith alone, ditching Warlocks/Paladins, and maybe even implementing random psionics are reasonable changes in a 4e Dark Sun campaign, especially if they are intent on making sure the rerelease if the novels fit with the feeling of 4e Dark Sun.

I'm personally not a fan of 4e D&D, one of the few systems I near completely refuse to play in. However, if they can make a good reflection of Dark Sun with the mechanics, I may well make Dark Sun 4e the exception to my not playing 4e D&D rule. I'm keeping this on my list of interesting role playing games going on in the future.


On a slightly related note, today I'm getting my first taste of actually playing in Dark Sun, using 4e GURPS for it though (200/100 for those that are interested in the power level we're using). I bought the revised 2e box set some years ago, loved reading through it, but never wound up getting a group together with it. Quite excited to actually get to play it. Using plot from the original box set, rather than the revised though, which sounds like they are going to do for 4e too.

Umael
2009-08-15, 08:23 PM
Edit: the math.

Yeah, I like 4th edition and I looooove Dark Sun but the first thing I want to see are variant rules for how deprivation works namely 1 day without water + 1 healing surge lost an hour and 1 week of food +1 healing surge a day lost.

Okay, I see your point - partly.

I don't have the numbers and what not in front of me, but tell me - given that, how long would your 1st level cleric with 10 Constitution and 7 healing surges last?

Keeping in mind that after 3 days, most people would be seriously in danger of dying (and yes, I know, PCs aren't most people).

Trog
2009-08-17, 06:45 PM
Hmm... Dark Sun eh?

Well having played it when it originally came out I can only say there it will be an improvement to have psionics fit in better with the overall rules. I absolutely hated DMing a psionic-using character in 2nd Ed. since it was sort of an awkward add on to the rules. And, of course, Dark Sun was loaded with psionics. After seeing how WotC has treated other power sources I have much more confidence that this will be a lot more balanced.

On the whole Dark Sun was never really my cup of tea but it is much more so than say Eberron as I cannot stand the science fantasy feel of that setting.

I am curious, though, to see if they develop any new rules for making 4e more "gritty" that could be transposed into another setting. Also curious to see how they adapt the old material into the new rules set. Thus far any rules conversions that have been made have been, on the whole, very well done I have to say.

ghost_warlock
2009-08-18, 12:41 AM
Hm. I'll have to look into this when it comes out.

http://digg.com/users/AvangionQ/h.png
Epic destiny?

Horatio@Bridge
2009-08-18, 09:35 AM
The new version's focus will be on the 50,000 survivors of Athas after the Warforged nuked the planet, as they search desperately for a mythical planet named Htrae in their fleet of spelljammer ships, while fighting off more Warforged attacks.

You know, that's actually a pretty cool idea for a Spelljammer campaign. Maybe pull in the Mourning from Eberron to model the nukes from Battlestar. Could be a lot of fun.

Lost Demiurge
2009-08-18, 09:42 AM
Hm! This is good news!

Be interesting to see how they grit up 4E. Shouldn't be difficult.

Now, all we need is for them to resurrect Planescape and Al-Qadim, and I'll be a happy camper...