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VikingSamurai
2009-08-14, 04:02 PM
Okay, so I've frequently seen many posts that say that 3.5 Monks just didn't measure up to the other classes, so here we are.


The Monk (improved)
Alignment: Any lawful
Hit Dice: D10. *I mean c'mon, the monk of all classes should be able to take a couple of hits and not fall to the floor in agony*
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at first level: (5+int mod) X4. *It was 5 in 3.0 and I don't really see why WotC changed it*
Skill Points at each additional level: 5+int mod.

The Monk (improved)
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus (+epic bonus)|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Flurry of Blows attack bonus|Unarmed Damage|AC bonus|Unarmored Speed Bonus

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Monk battle training|
-1/-1|
1d6|
+1|
+0ft|
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat, Evasion|
+0/+0|
1d6|
+1|
+5ft|
3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Still Mind|
+1/+1|
1d6|
+1|
+10ft|
4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|Ki Strike (magic), slow fall (20ft), Weapon focus (unarmed strike)|
+2/+2|
1d8|
+1|
+10ft|
5th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Purity of Body|
+3/+3|
1d8|
+2|
+15ft|
6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat, Slow fall (30ft)|
+4/+4|
1d8|
+2|
+20ft|
7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+5|Wholeness of Body, Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike)|
+5/+5|
1d8|
+2|
+20ft|
8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+6|Blind-fight, Slow fall (40ft), Ki Strike (lawful)|
+6/+6/+1|
1d10|
+2|
+25ft|
9th|
+7/+2|
+6|
+6|
+6|Improved Evasion|
+7/+7/+2|
1d10|
+2|
+30ft|
10th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+7|
+7|Ki Strike (adamantine), Slow fall (50ft), Bonus Feat|
+8/+8/+3|
1d10|
+3|
+30ft|
11th|
+9/+4|
+7|
+7|
+7|Diamond body, Greater Flurry|
+9/+9/+9/+4|
1d10|
+3|
+35ft|
12th|
+10/+5|
+8|
+8|
+8|Abundant step, Slow fall (60ft)|
+10/+10/+10/+5|
2d6|
+3|
+40ft|
13th|
+10/+5|
+8|
+8|
+8|Diamond Soul|
+10/+10/+10/+5|
2d6|
+3|
+40ft|
14th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+9|
+9|Slow fall (70ft)|
+11/+11/+11/+6/+1|
2d6|
+3|
+45ft|
15th|
+12/+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+9|Quivering Palm, Ki Strike (Cold Iron)|
+12/+12/+12/+7/+2|
2d6|
+4|
+50ft|
16th|
+13/+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|Slow Fall (80ft), Extra abundant step|
+13/+13/+13/+8/+3|
2d8|
+4|
+50ft|
17th|
+14/+9/+4|
+10|
+10|
+10|Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Timeless Body, Ki Strike (alchemical silver)|
+14/+14/+14/+9/+4|
2d8|
+4|
+55ft|
18th|
+15/+10/+5|
+11|
+11|
+11|Slow Fall (90ft)|
+15/+15/+15/+10/+5|
2d8|
+4|
+60ft|
19th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+11|
+11|
+11|Empty Body|
+16/+16/+16/+11/+6|
2d8|
+4|
+60ft|
20th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+12|
+12|
+12|Perfect Self, Slow Fall any distance, Extra abundant step|
+17/+17/+17/+12/+7|
2d10|
+5|
+65ft|[/table]

Small and Large Monk Unarmed Damage
{table=head]Level|Damage (Small)|Damage (Large)
1st-3rd|
1d4|
1d8|
4th-7th|
1d6|
2d6|
8th-11th|
1d8|
2d8|
12th-15th|
1d10|
3d6|
16th-19th|
2d6|
3d8|
20th|
2d8|
4d8|[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the monk.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Flurry of Blows (Ex)
When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. Flurry of blows is counted as an extra, swift action.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1˝ or ×˝) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.

Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.

Bonus Feat
At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, he/she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, he/she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. At 10th level, a monk may select either Power Attack or Combat expertise as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

Evasion (Ex)
At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he/she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Fast Movement (Ex)
At certain levels, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to his/her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.

Still Mind (Ex)
A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment.

Ki Strike (Su)
At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. His/her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 8th level, his/her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 10th level, his/her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness. At 15th level, his/her unarmed attacks are treated as cold iron for the purposes of dealing damage to creatures to damage reduction. At 17th level, the monk's unarmed attack is treated as alchemical silver for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction.

Slow Fall (Ex)
At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow his/her descent. When first using this ability, he/she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk’s ability to slow his/her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with his/her monk level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.

Purity of Body (Ex)
At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural diseases.

Wholeness of Body (Su)
At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his/her own wounds. He/She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to thrice *always wanted to use that* her current monk level each day, and he/she can spread this healing out among several uses. If a monk is brought below 0 hit points, this ability automatically adds all reserve hit-points to the monk's current HP. If knocked below the death-mark, this will not work. (in other words, it can't bring him/her back from the dead)

Blind-Fight
At level 8, the monk can reroll a percentage dice in melee if he/she has missed because of concealment. An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting the monk in melee. That is, he'she doesn’t lose his/her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker’s bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however.

Improved Evasion (Ex)
At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. He/She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he/she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Diamond Body (Su)
At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds, magical or no.

Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per day. The monk can do this one additional time at level 16 and he/she gains the ability to use abundant step 3 times at level 20. His/Her caster level for this effect is one-half his/her monk level (rounded down).

Diamond Soul (Ex)
At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to his/her current monk level + 10. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance. The monk may choose to voluntarily disable it for a set period of time, but all magic in that period of time is unimpeded (say someone cast a cure and someone else cast a magical attack within that period of time, both would get through).

Quivering Palm (Su)
Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. He/She can use this quivering palm attack once (+wis bonus, if positive) a day, and he/she must announce his/her intent before making his/her attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to his/her monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Will saving throw (DC 10 + ˝ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wis modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time.

Timeless Body (Ex)
Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to his/her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he/she has already taken are reversed. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when his/her time is up.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
A monk of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature on the plane he/she is on (Also works in cross-plane communication).

Empty Body (Su)
At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per monk level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. He/She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed his/her monk level. Activating empty body is a swift action.

Enlightenment
At 20th level, a monk acts as if under the influence of a permanent foresight spell.

Ex-Monks
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise his/her monk level, though he/she retains all his/her monk abilities.

Blindsight and Blindsense:
A monk adds the feats blindsight and blindsense to the list of feats that he/she can take. These are not bonus feats, we just might have had enough of those.

Right, now on to "new" content:

Feats

Monk battle training
Prerequisites: Monk level 1
Note: This feat is gained automatically by monks at first level.
Specifics: The monk has undergone tough martial arts training and as a result is very good at dodging and exploiting differences in stance. The monk gains a +4 bonus on all grapple checks and a +1 dodge bonus.

Strength of mind
Prerequisites: Monk or Kengou (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6512999#post6512999), Wis 12+
Specifics: The Monk/Kengou can successfully channel his/her willpower into their attacks. This means that the Monk/Kengou may use their wisdom bonus to hit and damage instead of their strength bonus, if it is higher, in all melee attacks. The Kengou call this "Seishinryoku", while the monks tend to call it "strength of mind".

Monk weapon training
Prerequisites: Proficiency in that weapon, monk
Specifics: The monk can choose any weapon that he/she is proficient with and use it as it was a special monk weapon.

I will add epic levels in later.
I would appreciate any constructive criticism.

Cue shameless self-promotion;
See also:
Golden Avariel race (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119071)
Kengou base class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6512999#post6512999)

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-14, 04:18 PM
D10 is only +1 hp/HD more so it's not a big improvement.

BAB is still only 3/4 and this is one of the monk's class biggest weaknesses (combined with lack of ways to increase the attack chance due the expense of improving unarmed attacks and MAD).

AC and damage are still low because of the expense of buffing the same.

Monk battle training is not good. It just favors smaller monks with regards to hit. But larger monks are still better at damage.

Strength of mind is actually really good because it reduces the MAD that monk's have.

Gnomo
2009-08-14, 04:36 PM
I did this to the monks in my games, we share some improvements like the Hit Die and the number of Skill Points, nevertheless I think you're missing the main problem, the BAB... the Monk should be a good grappler and this is stopping him, he has a lot of attacks but most of them have such a low attack bonus that they only slow down the game. Check them out and tell me if they are any good to you.

Monk
Improve its Hit Die to d10
Gain 5 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
Have good base attack bonus instead of medium.
Flurry of blows is just 1 extra attack as a swift action that must be done before all other attacks, the monk takes a -2 penalty to all attacks made until his next turn. At 11th monk level using Flurry of Blows adds no penalty to attacks.
Add Blind-fight, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike or monk weapon), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike or monk weapon) and Two Weapon Fighting to the bonus feat list that the monk can choose at 1st, 2nd and 6th level, the character does not necessarily has to meet the prerequisites of the feats to get them.
Every 2 levels after 12th gain a new daily use of the class feature "Abundant Step".
Bonus feats: At 10th, 14th and 18th levels the monk is granted another bonus feat, this can be any of the previous granted bonus feats (at 1st, 2nd or 6th level) or a fighter bonus feat that has as prerequisite Two Weapon Fighting, the monk does not need to meet the prerequisites of this feat in order to take it.
Perfect Self: This class feature also grants Damage Reduction 3/chaotic and the Spell Resistance from the Adamantine Soul class feature changes to 10 + the monk's hit die.

VikingSamurai
2009-08-14, 04:41 PM
D10 is only +1 hp/HD more so it's not a big improvement.

BAB is still only 3/4 and this is one of the monk's class biggest weaknesses.

AC and damage are still low because of the expense of buffing the same.

Monk battle training is not good. It just favors smaller monks with regards to hit. But larger monks are still better at damage.

Strength of mind is actually really good because it reduces the MAD that monk's have.

True, D10 is only an improvement of 1 hit die, but if I bumped it up to d12, that would make the barbarian - who has the highest hit dice because he is made to be a total hitpoint powerhouse - somewhat weaker in comaprison *bearing in mind that the barbarian can only really use up to medium armor.

Base attack bonus is 3/4, but if I change it, I am NOT making it directly on par with the fighter's attack bonus.

I may improve the damage a bit *may give the old d12 a friend apart from the humble barbarian and his greataxe.* and in fact, I was thinking up some monk dodge bonus feat, but I seem to have completely forgotten about it.

Indeed, monk battle training does favour smaller monks, but doesn't it help balance things out a bit between small and medium monks?

Strength of mind was something I concocted just for that purpose in fact, I was thinking that my "kengou" class was getting a bit MAD so I based this feat on weapon finesse and things happened and were changed. Also, thanks.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-14, 04:48 PM
Indeed, monk battle training does favour smaller monks, but doesn't it help balance things out a bit between small and medium monks?

Well the small monk is now +5 to hit an only -1 to damage (as Str is no longer a factor) vs the medium monk so I would say the small monk has the definitive edge.

If you remove the +4 to hit from your feat, then the small monk is now only +1 to hit and -1 to damage (again since Str is no longer a factor).

But then when grappling, the larger monk still has a better grapple chance. So if you want to even out the small and medium monk perhaps the feat should be

Monk grapple training
Prerequisites: Monk level 1
Note: This feat is gained automatically by monks at first level.
Specifics: The monk has undergone training such that when fighting a creature larger than himself, he gains a +4 bonus on all grapple checks (even if the opponent is another monk)



Base attack bonus is 3/4, but if I change it, I am NOT making it directly on par with the fighter's attack bonus.

Then the monk is a striker. If so, then maybe his damage needs to go up a bit.

Or maybe have Quivering Palm 1/day instead of 1/week?

Or replace the Tongue ability with something more appropriate to a striker. Blindsight maybe?

VikingSamurai
2009-08-14, 04:56 PM
I did this to the monks in my games, we share some improvements like the Hit Die and the number of Skill Points, nevertheless I think you're missing the main problem, the BAB... the Monk should be a good grappler and this is stopping him, he has a lot of attacks but most of them have such a low attack bonus that they only slow down the game. Check them out and tell me if they are any good to you.

Monk
Improve its Hit Die to d10
Gain 5 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
Have good base attack bonus instead of medium.
Flurry of blows is just 1 extra attack as a swift action that must be done before all other attacks, the monk takes a -2 penalty to all attacks made until his next turn. At 11th monk level using Flurry of Blows adds no penalty to attacks.
Add Blind-fight, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike or monk weapon), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike or monk weapon) and Two Weapon Fighting to the bonus feat list that the monk can choose at 1st, 2nd and 6th level, the character does not necessarily has to meet the prerequisites of the feats to get them.
Every 2 levels after 12th gain a new daily use of the class feature "Abundant Step".
Bonus feats: At 10th, 14th and 18th levels the monk is granted another bonus feat, this can be any of the previous granted bonus feats (at 1st, 2nd or 6th level) or a fighter bonus feat that has as prerequisite Two Weapon Fighting, the monk does not need to meet the prerequisites of this feat in order to take it.
Perfect Self: This class feature also grants Damage Reduction 3/chaotic and the Spell Resistance from the Adamantine Soul class feature changes to 10 + the monk's hit die.


#1: already done, my good sir.
#2: I changed it to 5 because it was 5 in 3.0 and I don't see why they changed it
#3: Going to have to say no to that one
#4: Everything apart from two-weapon fighting has been added, there.
#5: I used my own variationof this, 3 times a day at level 20 sounds reasonable
#6: I'll make a point of doing so in the future
#7: I may or may not do this. But, one question: "adamantine soul"?

Thank you for your suggestions.

Strawman
2009-08-14, 11:28 PM
I never understood why a monk's BAB is lower than a fighter. A monk is constantly training with just his body, while fighters have to learn to attack equally well with all manner of weapons. I'm suprised a 19 year old fighter can so much as remember the names of all the weapons he has become proficient with. As precision and balance are the cornerstones of many martial arts styles, I think it only makes sense that monks should be really good at connecting with a blow.

Low damage I understand.

Also, have you considered a free improvised weapon feat?

THESSALONIKI, Greece — Rival groups of monks wielding crowbars and sledgehammers clashed Wednesday over control of a 1,000-year-old monastery in a community regarded as the cradle of Orthodox Christianity, police said.

VikingSamurai
2009-08-15, 03:27 AM
Well the small monk is now +5 to hit an only -1 to damage (as Str is no longer a factor) vs the medium monk so I would say the small monk has the definitive edge.

If you remove the +4 to hit from your feat, then the small monk is now only +1 to hit and -1 to damage (again since Str is no longer a factor).

But then when grappling, the larger monk still has a better grapple chance. So if you want to even out the small and medium monk perhaps the feat should be

Monk grapple training
Prerequisites: Monk level 1
Note: This feat is gained automatically by monks at first level.
Specifics: The monk has undergone training such that when fighting a creature larger than himself, he gains a +4 bonus on all grapple checks (even if the opponent is another monk)


Then the monk is a striker. If so, then maybe his damage needs to go up a bit.

Or maybe have Quivering Palm 1/day instead of 1/week?

Or replace the Tongue ability with something more appropriate to a striker. Blindsight maybe?

I see what you mean, I think that maybe I might improve the possible A.C. of a monk with this feat as well.

Ah, now that I think about it, a monk should be able to hit things rather well but I'm wondering whether it would cheapen the fighter class? And because the monks fists are counted as manufactured weapon, they can be buffed by a party wizard.

I think that the monk damage is actually fine as it is, because although he/she is trained to potentially kill someone, he/she's not neccessarily going to be able to hit with a force that rivals the titans themselves. Besides, I think that strength of mind has possibly bumped up the damage a bit and that should be enough.

I just can't agree to quivering palm once per day. I'm sure you can see how they would exploit the possibility for an instant kill on a failed save. Just think of the inconvenience it would cause if a monk used that on one of the many bosses that might be included in campaigns.

Maybe not replace, but possibly add to the list of feats a monk can take?

VikingSamurai
2009-08-15, 03:40 AM
I never understood why a monk's BAB is lower than a fighter. A monk is constantly training with just his body, while fighters have to learn to attack equally well with all manner of weapons. I'm suprised a 19 year old fighter can so much as remember the names of all the weapons he has become proficient with. As precision and balance are the cornerstones of many martial arts styles, I think it only makes sense that monks should be really good at connecting with a blow.

Low damage I understand.

Also, have you considered a free improvised weapon feat?

THESSALONIKI, Greece — Rival groups of monks wielding crowbars and sledgehammers clashed Wednesday over control of a 1,000-year-old monastery in a community regarded as the cradle of Orthodox Christianity, police said.


Read above post for the most part.

A free improvised weapon feat wouldn't be too imbalanced, but now that I think about it, who needs improvised weapons when they can kill someone with their bare hands?

Harperfan7
2009-08-15, 03:47 AM
Here's my monk "fix" (assuming you think they suck as are, and other classes are infinetly better). If you like it, use it.

Monks:
- All save or suck/save or die spells allow a saving throw. Waves of Exhaustion? Allows a save. Power word kill on somebody with 100 or less hp? Allows a save. NOTE: Even if you don't use this as a general rule, the monk should still get it. At, say, 5th level.
- At 5th level, the monk can take a free move action once per round. He can use this ability 1+1/4 monk levels/day.
- At 10th level, the monk can take a free standard action once per round. He can use this ability 1+1/4 monk levels/day. NOTE: Maybe these two should switch levels? - not sure. A monk can never use both abilities in the same round, and they have different use pools.
- at 15th level, the monk can take a free full round action once per round. He can use this ability 1+1/4 monk levels/day. NOTE: Same as above.
- Wholeness of body: At 7th level, as a free action, a monk can gain fast healing 5 for a number of rounds equal to his monk class level. He can pick and choose which rounds to use it in (like Empty Body). This ability automatically kicks in if the monk is brought to 0 or fewer hit points.
- Abundant Step: 1/day/4 monk levels.
- Quivering Palm: Changes to 1/day/5 monk levels. It works instantly upon a successful attack roll, it can not be delayed.
- Ki Strike: A monk can ignore one type of Damage Reduction per 5 monk levels. NOTE: You may want to disallow the monk to ignore chaotic DR, or DR that opposes their alignment on the good/evil axis.
- Perfect Self: Gains DR 10/adamantine instead.
- Fast movement, decrease each +10ft. to +5ft. (Still faster than scouts)

VikingSamurai
2009-08-15, 04:19 AM
Here's my monk "fix" (assuming you think they suck as are, and other classes are infinetly better). If you like it, use it.

Monks:
- All save or suck/save or die spells allow a saving throw. Waves of Exhaustion? Allows a save. Power word kill on somebody with 100 or less hp? Allows a save. NOTE: Even if you don't use this as a general rule, the monk should still get it. At, say, 5th level.
- At 5th level, the monk can take a free move action once per round. He can use this ability 1+1/4 monk levels/day.
- At 10th level, the monk can take a free standard action once per round. He can use this ability 1+1/4 monk levels/day. NOTE: Maybe these two should switch levels? - not sure. A monk can never use both abilities in the same round, and they have different use pools.
- at 15th level, the monk can take a free full round action once per round. He can use this ability 1+1/4 monk levels/day. NOTE: Same as above.
- Wholeness of body: At 7th level, as a free action, a monk can gain fast healing 5 for a number of rounds equal to his monk class level. He can pick and choose which rounds to use it in (like Empty Body). This ability automatically kicks in if the monk is brought to 0 or fewer hit points.
- Abundant Step: 1/day/4 monk levels.
- Quivering Palm: Changes to 1/day/5 monk levels. It works instantly upon a successful attack roll, it can not be delayed.
- Ki Strike: A monk can ignore one type of Damage Reduction per 5 monk levels. NOTE: You may want to disallow the monk to ignore chaotic DR, or DR that opposes their alignment on the good/evil axis.
- Perfect Self: Gains DR 10/adamantine instead.
- Fast movement, decrease each +10ft. to +5ft. (Still faster than scouts)


I wouldn't say that they suck as such, just that they can be slightly more difficult to play at certain levels.

#1 Power word kill won't be so much of a problem now due to increased HD, and anyway, no-one gets a save against waves of exhaustion so I think that that's unjustified. This is only really to rebalance the monk, not neccessarily turn it into the dervish of destruction that I remember from a previous edition.

#2,3 and 4: Generally, I don't really like the "Give the monk a free extra action" because A) The monk already has enhanced speed *even more so in the improvement*, and B) free standard action and free full action are just things that aren't supposed to be done, in my mind.

#5: I have made it automatically heal the monk with the remaining reserve hitpoints as soon as he/she drops to 0 or fewer hit points, but I don't think it can bring him/her back from death.

#6: I think the maximum Abundant step should need to be used would be three times, any more than that and there's something wrong with the monk.

#7: I think that increasing possible usage of quivering palm might lead to characters potentially abusing it. It can really wreak havok if your boss isn't immune to criticals and at least with once a week, the character might use quivering palm before meeting the boss and might thus make the battle stay challenging.

#8: I have my own variation of ki strike and I think that it's about passable.

#9: I don't see why it would be adamantine instead of magic, myself. It's not like the monk would train themselves to be incredibly resistant to almost every metal

#10: I don't really see why it needs to decrease. Maybe because of the free move action you gave to it?

dentrag2
2009-08-15, 04:30 AM
*Cough*

What's the problem with Quivering Palm 1/day?

Couldn't a wizard of the same level cast Phantasmal Killer, oh, 4/day? And the save would be based off their Int.

Quivering palm is underpowered too.

VikingSamurai
2009-08-15, 05:19 AM
*Cough*

What's the problem with Quivering Palm 1/day?
Couldn't a wizard of the same level cast Phantasmal Killer, oh, 4/day? And the save would be based off their Int.
Quivering palm is underpowered too.

Okay, I have changed quivering palm to a will save.

Also, what's magic resistance for if not for stopping insta-death spells? (not neccessarily referring to the monk's survival rate, but anything with magic resistance (or immune to fear in the case of phantasmal killer, I think))

But I may make a usage rule like 1+wis mod (negatives don't count) times per week, max of 1 per day and 7 per week if it's still quite underpowered.

And also, phantasmal killer allows two saves, so there's a lower chance of the person dying if they have decent saves. Perhaps finger of death might be a better example? But still, that's a fortitude save, and the person you're likely to target with finger of death will probably make a successful save.

And while this 15th level wizard was busy casting these spells that this *improved* monk was saving against, the monk would charge at the wizard very quickly or abundant step in and punch him/her to death (although, that is assuming that over the course of 4 rounds the wizard would be casting phantasmal killer 4 times, and that the monk saved each and every time).
And if the wizard cast finger of death, the monk probably would save (unless they rolled quite low, base save of +9 at level 15, or the spell D.C was Incredibly high) and use this to further his/her chance of killing the wizard.

Oh, and about the save of the wizard's spell being based off their Int (and spell level, which for phantasmal killer is 4, so no real threat to the monk there unless it just so happens that the caster is super-intelligent, brain-devouring, spell-casting creature that will not be named) which just so happens to be the wizard's prime stat. The save for quivering palm is based off of a monk's Wis - which happens to be the monk's prime stat - So, a monk of level 15 with wis 18 would have a quivering palm D.C. of 21 (10+7+4), while the wizard's D.C for Phantasmal killer (with int 18) would be 18 (10+4+4). The save for finger of death would be an equal 21 (10+7+4), which a monk of 15th level with a base fortitude save of +9 (+whatever con bonus the monk may have, normally a monk would have a fairly high constitution score *especially an improved one because with strength of mind, he/she doesn't need have a high strength*) could avoid on an 8-12 roll *using my version of quivering palm, would be harder for ordinary quivering palm, due to the fact that it allows a fortitude save*. Versus the wizard, who may skimp out on wisdom (I've done it before) - but probably not - could also avoid the effects on an 8-12 roll. The monk may fall down there on damage, but the monk has more HP than the wizard and could probably cope with it unless he/she was on very low HP. Although, once the wizard is in range of the monk, the monk can just use flurry of blows and transform the wizard into a mass of wizard putty. This is assuming that they both succeed all of their saves. You probably already know this, I was just puzzled as to why you emphasised the "and the D.C is based off their int". I must stress that I don't want to start a debate.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-15, 06:45 PM
I see what you mean, I think that maybe I might improve the possible A.C. of a monk with this feat as well.

Ah, now that I think about it, a monk should be able to hit things rather well but I'm wondering whether it would cheapen the fighter class?The two handed fighter still has better to hit and damage and all those fighter feats. Anyway we were talking about fixing the monk not the fighter. The monk is underpowered because of low bab, damage and ac, mad and the expense of getting buffs for his ac and unarmed attack. Unless you fix each if not most, the monk will still suck.


And because the monks fists are counted as manufactured weapon, they can be buffed by a party wizard.

I think that the monk damage is actually fine as it is, because although he/she is trained to potentially kill someone, he/she's not neccessarily going to be able to hit with a force that rivals the titans themselves. Besides, I think that strength of mind has possibly bumped up the damage a bit and that should be enough.

I just can't agree to quivering palm once per day. I'm sure you can see how they would exploit the possibility for an instant kill on a failed save. Just think of the inconvenience it would cause if a monk used that on one of the many bosses that might be included in campaigns.
I see you already made the change down below but made it 1+wis to a max of 1/day or 7/week. Overly complicated. 1/day is good enough. It is not overpowered not compared to the sod spell or massive damage other fighters do at that level. Besides you were not talking about fixing sod spells or effects but the monk class. The argument against sod effects would apply whether the quivering palm was a 1/day or 1/week effect. But making it 1/day makes the power more useful to the player.

If you don't want it to be a straight save or die effect, change quivering palm to the equivalent of a harm or disintegrate spell.

deuxhero
2009-08-15, 09:21 PM
Still doesn't solve the fact that flurry and improved speed completly clash with eachother. Give them pounce or get rid of one of the 2.

Gnomo
2009-08-16, 01:48 AM
Still doesn't solve the fact that flurry and improved speed completly clash with eachother. Give them pounce or get rid of one of the 2.
I think Pounce is a little over the top considering how flurry actually works, giving the Monk full attacks every time it charges makes no sense thematically, if you're next to an opponent you should be able to get the extra attack not needing to run again.

I concur with you in the idea that flurry and improved speed do not match each other in design, and this is the reason why I turn Flurry into an extra attack as a swift action, cause it synergies better not only with charge, but also with Spring Attack. I think it's the best solution, not pounce.

On the other hand, I don't consider that the Monk really suffers that much from AC, I mean overall it will have less AC than a Fighter of his level because of items, but will have more Touch AC which matters a lot against many spells.

dentrag2
2009-08-16, 02:57 AM
All right, point taken. Party members often start kicking the crap out of each other. It's a two-player party. In-fighting is supposed to be common.

What i was trying to say was: Many monsters have terrible will saves (Or at least the monsters i've seen used and have used myself) and excellent fort and reflex saves. Now, admittedly, we aren't too high level, but what i'm saying is that a spell that a wizard can get at level 7 is nearly as good as the 15th level monk ability, and can be used MUCH more frequently.

And if all else fails, just MAKE THE BOSS IMMUNE TO IT.
Fluff ahead;
Even 5/week, how often do adventurers adventure? Don't they need a little time between adventures? I would make it 1+wis mod a week, limit of 2/day.

EDIT:"So, a monk of level 15 with wis 18 would have a quivering palm D.C. of 21 (10+7+4), while the wizard's D.C for Phantasmal killer (with int 18) would be 18 (10+4+4). The save for finger of death would be an equal 21 (10+7+4), which a monk of 15th level with a base fortitude save of +9 (+whatever con bonus the monk may have, normally a monk would have a fairly high constitution score *especially an improved one because with strength of mind, he/she doesn't need have a high strength*) could avoid on an 8-12 roll."

Admittedly, it's clipped a bit, but;
Wouldn't a monk of 15th level have improved his scores 3 times?
Assuming that he miraculously didn't roll a 17 and 16 was his highest, actually a pretty likely occurrence, he would still have a score of 19. This is before taking into account ANY wisdom-improving magic items, such as a potion of Owl's Wisdom, which would increase save DC by 2, and the wizard would STILL likely save, because wizards have very, very good will scores.

Same goes for Phantasmal killer! Wouldn't the wizard have 20 or above Int, after having used magical items? Would the wizard have not taken Spell Focus on Illusion if the wizard wishes to use this spell? Lightning Reflexes? Iron Will? Great Fortitude? It's also, in my opinion, VERY easy for the wizard to increase his AC or his fort. The monk has to make a attack with the quivering palm. With a buffed AC (Mage armor, rings of protection, scarab of natural defense...) the wizard has a far superior advantage. And, even if he misses, the monk takes 3d6 of damage. Why would he bother using any of them, in fact, and not just cast a quickened Cone of Cold then Dimension door away, fireball, then Phantasmal? That should do enough to kill any monk.
You are not taking into account feats or items.

Origomar
2009-08-16, 03:52 AM
Honestly i dont like it that much, alot of the higher up monk abilities are still completely useless, you just took the first step in making the monk less MAD and able to do adequate damage.

BTW its not +1 hp its plus 1.5 hp. instead of 90 its 110.


I have a monk fix that i kind of pieced together from alot of diffrent monk fixes. ill try and post tommorow.

Gah screw it i cant sleep anyway.(everything else i dont mention is the same with the origonal monk)

Extensive Training At level 1 a monk may use his dex bonus to hit with any weapon.

Ki strike At level 4 for purposes of bypassing DR you may treat a monk or any weapons(including unarmored attacks) the monk uses as magic weapons. You may also add your wisdom bonus instead of your strength to your attack rolls. At level 10 you may treat any weapons as adamantine for purposes of bypassing DR.(including unarmored attacks.

Diamond Body Gains immunity to all poisons and supernatural/magical diseases.

Timeless Body Now it does remove penalties of aging.

Empty Body Can be used as a swift action.

Tounge of the Sun and Moon Now you can also communicate with any creature on the plane that you are on.

Wholeness of Body(same as yours above, i liked the idea.) but now its changed to x3 instead of x2

Skill points increased to +5(also liked that idea.)

Slow fall Now works even when not in reach of a wall, but, if you dont have the level 20 slow fall and you are in the reach of a wall you can slow fall indefinately.
Perfect Self Changed to Enlightenment Now you act as if you had the spell forsight permanently cast on you.

Abundant Step You gain an additional abundant step every 2 levels after 12.

Diamond Soul Now you can allow certain spells to bypass it without making a check.(to be less annoying for buffs)

Quivering Palm Now you make the fortitude save as soon as the hit lands, then you can activate it whenever you want as a free action. Also instead of once a week. Using this ability takes away 3 uses of stunning fist(even if you didnt take the feat). The max is 20 so if you use this 4 times you can only use stunning fist 8 times for the rest of that day then you have to sleep to gain uses of these abilities back.

Flurry of Blows- Now you can, once you get greater flurry, attack at your regular BAB as a standard action.(so you can either make a full round action for 5 attacks or a standard action for 3 attacks. that is assuming you didnt crossclass.)


Oh and additional feats.
Weapon Training- A monk can now consider a weapon that they are already proficient with to a special monk weapon.

VikingSamurai
2009-08-16, 04:58 AM
EDIT:"So, a monk of level 15 with wis 18 would have a quivering palm D.C. of 21 (10+7+4), while the wizard's D.C for Phantasmal killer (with int 18) would be 18 (10+4+4). The save for finger of death would be an equal 21 (10+7+4), which a monk of 15th level with a base fortitude save of +9 (+whatever con bonus the monk may have, normally a monk would have a fairly high constitution score *especially an improved one because with strength of mind, he/she doesn't need have a high strength*) could avoid on an 8-12 roll."

Admittedly, it's clipped a bit, but;
Wouldn't a monk of 15th level have improved his scores 3 times?
Assuming that he miraculously didn't roll a 17 and 16 was his highest, actually a pretty likely occurrence, he would still have a score of 19. This is before taking into account ANY wisdom-improving magic items, such as a potion of Owl's Wisdom, which would increase save DC by 2, and the wizard would STILL likely save, because wizards have very, very good will scores.

Same goes for Phantasmal killer! Wouldn't the wizard have 20 or above Int, after having used magical items? Would the wizard have not taken Spell Focus on Illusion if the wizard wishes to use this spell? Lightning Reflexes? Iron Will? Great Fortitude? It's also, in my opinion, VERY easy for the wizard to increase his AC or his fort. The monk has to make a attack with the quivering palm. With a buffed AC (Mage armor, rings of protection, scarab of natural defense...) the wizard has a far superior advantage. And, even if he misses, the monk takes 3d6 of damage. Why would he bother using any of them, in fact, and not just cast a quickened Cone of Cold then Dimension door away, fireball, then Phantasmal? That should do enough to kill any monk.
You are not taking into account feats or items.

You have many good points, and are most probably right, so I have decided to allow the use of quivering palm once per day. Just have to make sure that the DMs reading this give their bosses good protection :smallsmile:

Yes, but the monk, with his/her slightly improved BAB and the fact that to-hits and damages now rely on wisdom, can probably counter those pesky protections that the wizard might use.
Also, I admit that the wizard's highest save is will, but at the same level, the monk would have a will save just as high and, bearing in mind that wisdom is his/her prime stat, wouldn't he/she want to buff it before everything else?
One more thing, by the by, who's to say that the monk doesn't have any items that raise his wisdom?

Thanks for both the idea and for persuading me in all of my stubborness.

VikingSamurai
2009-08-16, 05:02 AM
I think Pounce is a little over the top considering how flurry actually works, giving the Monk full attacks every time it charges makes no sense thematically, if you're next to an opponent you should be able to get the extra attack not needing to run again.

I concur with you in the idea that flurry and improved speed do not match each other in design, and this is the reason why I turn Flurry into an extra attack as a swift action, cause it synergies better not only with charge, but also with Spring Attack. I think it's the best solution, not pounce.

On the other hand, I don't consider that the Monk really suffers that much from AC, I mean overall it will have less AC than a Fighter of his level because of items, but will have more Touch AC which matters a lot against many spells.

Ah, now I see what you mean. That's a very good idea. Thanks:smallsmile:

VikingSamurai
2009-08-16, 05:54 AM
Honestly i dont like it that much, alot of the higher up monk abilities are still completely useless, you just took the first step in making the monk less MAD and able to do adequate damage.

BTW its not +1 hp its plus 1.5 hp. instead of 90 its 110.


I have a monk fix that i kind of pieced together from alot of diffrent monk fixes. ill try and post tommorow.

Gah screw it i cant sleep anyway.(everything else i dont mention is the same with the origonal monk)

Extensive Training At level 1 a monk may use his dex bonus to hit with any weapon.

Ki strike At level 4 for purposes of bypassing DR you may treat a monk or any weapons(including unarmored attacks) the monk uses as magic weapons. You may also add your wisdom bonus instead of your strength to your attack rolls. At level 10 you may treat any weapons as adamantine for purposes of bypassing DR.(including unarmored attacks.

Diamond Body Gains immunity to all poisons and supernatural/magical diseases.

Timeless Body Now it does remove penalties of aging.

Empty Body Can be used as a swift action.

Tounge of the Sun and Moon Now you can also communicate with any creature on the plane that you are on.

Wholeness of Body(same as yours above, i liked the idea.) but now its changed to x3 instead of x2

Skill points increased to +5(also liked that idea.)

Slow fall Now works even when not in reach of a wall, but, if you dont have the level 20 slow fall and you are in the reach of a wall you can slow fall indefinately.
Perfect Self Changed to Enlightenment Now you act as if you had the spell forsight permanently cast on you.

Abundant Step You gain an additional abundant step every 2 levels after 12.

Diamond Soul Now you can allow certain spells to bypass it without making a check.(to be less annoying for buffs)

Quivering Palm Now you make the fortitude save as soon as the hit lands, then you can activate it whenever you want as a free action. Also instead of once a week. Using this ability takes away 3 uses of stunning fist(even if you didnt take the feat). The max is 20 so if you use this 4 times you can only use stunning fist 8 times for the rest of that day then you have to sleep to gain uses of these abilities back.

Flurry of Blows- Now you can, once you get greater flurry, attack at your regular BAB as a standard action.(so you can either make a full round action for 5 attacks or a standard action for 3 attacks. that is assuming you didnt crossclass.)


Oh and additional feats.
Weapon Training- A monk can now consider a weapon that they are already proficient with to a special monk weapon.

I really do it as I go along, so it's not really overly good yet.

#1: I've already provided a somewhat similar feat, but not as a bonus feat. I think it's okay as it is without adding extensive training, though.

#2: I've put a bit of my own spin on this one. Thanks.

#3: I think that leaving it at all natural diseases is fine, actually. But thanks for the idea of including diseases.

#4: Done and done.

#5: Also done.

#6: Done, but accidentally marked as "free action", will fix when replied to this message.

#7: Done.

#8: I personally don't like this idea, because how is the monk supposed to slow his/her descent without being able to touch anything?

#9:That seems like a good idea, will implement when I'm done responding.

#10: I think that the monk will only need this a maximum of 3/day.

#11: That should've been put into the 3.5 edition in the first place, it's very good.

#12: A clever system, but I think that I won't include it because it puts monks who have stunning fist at a disadvantage to the ones who took improved grapple.

#13: I've essentially added the extra attack as a swift action

That was a good list. It provided me with many useful ideas. Thanks for that.

Origomar
2009-08-16, 10:19 AM
Well ill try and make another easy solution to quivering palm not being useless. once a week is ridiculous when spellcasters can get several insta kill spells that dont even require an attack roll.

How about 1 use a day for every 4 monk levels you have or something.

and im not quite sure if i like the flurry system or not, something about 6 attacks as a standard action doesnt seem fair. it might be better to change the BAB back to as a clerics. Make them crossclass if they want higher BAB.

Also the point of changing ki strike was to make it to where the monk could also use weapons efficiently.

dentrag2
2009-08-16, 05:50 PM
Well ill try and make another easy solution to quivering palm not being useless. once a week is ridiculous when spellcasters can get several insta kill spells that dont even require an attack roll.

How about 1 use a day for every 4 monk levels you have or something.

and im not quite sure if i like the flurry system or not, something about 6 attacks as a standard action doesnt seem fair. it might be better to change the BAB back to as a clerics. Make them crossclass if they want higher BAB.

Also the point of changing ki strike was to make it to where the monk could also use weapons efficiently.

See, the thing about quivering palm;

It's a one save kill-or-die ability, about as effective as Phantasmal killer, but not as effective as Weird. Unfortunately, your idea only contributes to the 15 minute adventuring day.
It would be much better if for every three points of wisdom bonus (Not temporary magical bonuses, but magical items WOULD effect it) the monk would get one use of Quivering Palm a day.

By casters you mean Wizards, right? Sorcerors don't specialize like that, and nobody else gets it.

Hold on -- Flurry of blows used to give you penalties to hit for extra attacks. Why did you change it? It works pretty well. Oh, you didn't. It's still an excellent class ability.

Origomar
2009-08-16, 10:04 PM
See, the thing about quivering palm;

It's a one save kill-or-die ability, about as effective as Phantasmal killer, but not as effective as Weird. Unfortunately, your idea only contributes to the 15 minute adventuring day.
It would be much better if for every three points of wisdom bonus (Not temporary magical bonuses, but magical items WOULD effect it) the monk would get one use of Quivering Palm a day.

By casters you mean Wizards, right? Sorcerors don't specialize like that, and nobody else gets it.

Hold on -- Flurry of blows used to give you penalties to hit for extra attacks. Why did you change it? It works pretty well. Oh, you didn't. It's still an excellent class ability.

Clerics, sorcerers, and wizards all gain access to save or die abilities. And it isnt as effective as phantasmal killer, because phantasmal killer can be used at range and can be casted as many times as your class permits a day.

Furthermore why should a level 15 ability be less useful than a 4th level spell.

And lets say a monk is awsome and has a +9 to his wisdom bonus thats still only 3 uses.

Maybe change stunning fist uses to one a day per monk level + wisdom modifier.

Ashtagon
2009-08-17, 02:19 AM
A while ago, I did some maths on flurry of blows. At low levels (ie. bab +0 to +4, before you'd get an extra attack from bab alone), it is actually inferior in every way to a regular full attack.

VikingSamurai
2009-08-17, 05:33 AM
Well ill try and make another easy solution to quivering palm not being useless. once a week is ridiculous when spellcasters can get several insta kill spells that dont even require an attack roll.

How about 1 use a day for every 4 monk levels you have or something.

and im not quite sure if i like the flurry system or not, something about 6 attacks as a standard action doesnt seem fair. it might be better to change the BAB back to as a clerics. Make them crossclass if they want higher BAB.

Also the point of changing ki strike was to make it to where the monk could also use weapons efficiently.

Note that if a monk multiclasses, he/she can NEVER take another level in monk.

Maybe 6 attacks as a standard action doesn't seem fair, but then again, the monk is trained to be devastatingly quick. It also fits in with the lack of armor they use.

Changing Ki Strike to affect weapons seems kinda pointless. I mean, can't the monk just get a weapon made out of that material/alignment/enchantment?

VikingSamurai
2009-08-17, 05:39 AM
See, the thing about quivering palm;

It's a one save kill-or-die ability, about as effective as Phantasmal killer, but not as effective as Weird. Unfortunately, your idea only contributes to the 15 minute adventuring day.
It would be much better if for every three points of wisdom bonus (Not temporary magical bonuses, but magical items WOULD effect it) the monk would get one use of Quivering Palm a day.

By casters you mean Wizards, right? Sorcerors don't specialize like that, and nobody else gets it.

Hold on -- Flurry of blows used to give you penalties to hit for extra attacks. Why did you change it? It works pretty well. Oh, you didn't. It's still an excellent class ability.

Now that quivering palm usage equation seems good, say every 2 points of wisdom bonus? *might be a bit better than every 3 points*

Yes, it can be about as effective as phantasmal killer, but it can really wreak havok if *improved quivering palm is* used on the right class *cough*fighters*cough*.

VikingSamurai
2009-08-17, 05:42 AM
A while ago, I did some maths on flurry of blows. At low levels (ie. bab +0 to +4, before you'd get an extra attack from bab alone), it is actually inferior in every way to a regular full attack.

In what way, elaborate?
Also, if it's inferior, can't the monk just use a regular full attack in that level range?

Ashtagon
2009-08-17, 08:18 AM
In what way, elaborate?
Also, if it's inferior, can't the monk just use a regular full attack in that level range?

flurry requires a full-round action, as does a full attack, so they are equal in terms of action economy.

By comparing the average number of hits a character can get (against a range of ACs, from character's bab plus one to character's bab plus twenty) each round, the extra attack from flurry does not compensate for the -2 attack penalty when doing a flurry.

Basically, he can flurry at low levels, but there's no reason for him to ever do so at low levels. He is always better off just using a regular full attack when he has that choice.

Origomar
2009-08-17, 02:36 PM
Note that if a monk multiclasses, he/she can NEVER take another level in monk.

Maybe 6 attacks as a standard action doesn't seem fair, but then again, the monk is trained to be devastatingly quick. It also fits in with the lack of armor they use.

Changing Ki Strike to affect weapons seems kinda pointless. I mean, can't the monk just get a weapon made out of that material/alignment/enchantment?

Well what about VoP monks, generally that goes with the monk because thats generally how monks act. He cant afford weapons and such so he makes do with what he can himself enchant them with. Also saying that he is trained to be quick isnt an excuse for making a class ability imbalanced. I also have yet to see any class that doesnt have a BAB that is inbetween 15/10/5 and 20/15/10/5. So why not just make it 15/10/5

VikingSamurai
2009-08-17, 03:34 PM
Well what about VoP monks, generally that goes with the monk because thats generally how monks act. He cant afford weapons and such so he makes do with what he can himself enchant them with. Also saying that he is trained to be quick isnt an excuse for making a class ability imbalanced. I also have yet to see any class that doesnt have a BAB that is inbetween 15/10/5 and 20/15/10/5. So why not just make it 15/10/5

And most level 9 spells aren't? In fact, it's actually keeping in line with the rules on it and it doesn't seem too imbalanced (like a certain level nine spell I know, weird, isn't it that mages of the same level get at least 3 amazingly hard-to-save-save-or-die spells *well 2, but I think that imprisonment is a type of save-or-die spell that is really one of the crueller ones* and when we give the lowly monk an extra attack they immediately start shouting imbalanced). (at levels with the extra attack *17-20?* it's not exactly like you'd be able to hit anything anyway, unless of course, you roll a natural 20)
But, just because you haven't seen a BAB between 15/10/5 and 20/15/10/5 doesn't mean it's not something that shouldn't be done, given that the monk actually needs a fairly high BAB because, unlike others with lower ones (who probably have spells, sneak attacks or other ways of fighting), the monk relies on melee combat.
And about the VoP monks, it's not exactly like they don't have melee weapons, considering that a monk is trained to use his/her fists with deadly force and that ki strike works on fists, it's not like the monk would need the weapons in the first place.

Faleldir
2009-08-17, 03:56 PM
Seconding the TOTSAM -> Blindsight suggestion.

Get rid of Fast Movement completely; enhancement bonuses are cheap enough. Make the extra movement a free action usable once per round during your turn: 10' at 3rd level, +5' at every odd-numbered level thereafter.

Replace Ki Strike (magic) with Ki Strike (masterwork).

Quivering Palm could easily have multiple uses per day without being overpowered. Remember, it requires an attack AND a save, and it's even less reliable against a caster because casters usually have miss chances too. Compare it to Feral Death Blow, which is gained only two levels later. One use per point of Wisdom bonus seems about right.

EDIT: When I said overpowered, I meant... ah, forget it. No one thinks I'm that dumb.

Origomar
2009-08-17, 08:02 PM
And most level 9 spells aren't? In fact, it's actually keeping in line with the rules on it and it doesn't seem too imbalanced (like a certain level nine spell I know, weird, isn't it that mages of the same level get at least 3 amazingly hard-to-save-save-or-die spells *well 2, but I think that imprisonment is a type of save-or-die spell that is really one of the crueller ones* and when we give the lowly monk an extra attack they immediately start shouting imbalanced). (at levels with the extra attack *17-20?* it's not exactly like you'd be able to hit anything anyway, unless of course, you roll a natural 20)
But, just because you haven't seen a BAB between 15/10/5 and 20/15/10/5 doesn't mean it's not something that shouldn't be done, given that the monk actually needs a fairly high BAB because, unlike others with lower ones (who probably have spells, sneak attacks or other ways of fighting), the monk relies on melee combat.
And about the VoP monks, it's not exactly like they don't have melee weapons, considering that a monk is trained to use his/her fists with deadly force and that ki strike works on fists, it's not like the monk would need the weapons in the first place.

Just because another class has imbalanced abilities doesnt mean you should give another one imbalanced abilities. Compare it to something that is around average like barbarian.

And fel i think we were saying it was underpowered not overpowered.

VikingSamurai
2009-08-18, 04:13 AM
You have a point. Well, time to go and change it. Is just getting rid of the last attack on FoB okay? if not, what do you suggest?

VikingSamurai
2009-08-18, 04:21 AM
Seconding the TOTSAM -> Blindsight suggestion.
Get rid of Fast Movement completely; enhancement bonuses are cheap enough. Make the extra movement a free action usable once per round during your turn: 10' at 3rd level, +5' at every odd-numbered level thereafter.
Replace Ki Strike (magic) with Ki Strike (masterwork).
Quivering Palm could easily have multiple uses per day without being overpowered. Remember, it requires an attack AND a save, and it's even less reliable against a caster because casters usually have miss chances too. Compare it to Feral Death Blow, which is gained only two levels later. One use per point of Wisdom bonus seems about right.
EDIT: When I said overpowered, I meant... ah, forget it. No one thinks I'm that dumb.

I kind of agree with the blindsight suggestion, but I think that it shouldn't be given for free. I have added it to the list of feats that monks can take.

I'm a bit hesitant about the extra movement as a free action idea, I don't think that it's really needed, but thanks anyway.

Just asking, but what would be the point of changing ki strike (magic) to ki strike (masterwork)?

I agree on the quivering palm usage.