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View Full Version : Subbing Concentration for Reflex with ToB.



AstralFire
2009-08-14, 04:32 PM
Does it work when you have a null reflex save? The SigOth just asked me this and I know not the answer.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-14, 04:37 PM
Action Before Thought, a 2nd level Diamond Mind counter.

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 04:42 PM
Action Before Thought, a 2nd level Diamond Mind counter.

...That's not quite what I was asking, but okay.

Saph
2009-08-14, 04:45 PM
A null reflex save? Could you elaborate?

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 04:51 PM
A null reflex save? Could you elaborate?

From a null Dex score, such as with the Formian Queen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/formian.htm#queen).

Dexterity
Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score canít move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.

Does 'automatically fails reflex saves' still apply when using said maneuver?

Saph
2009-08-14, 04:55 PM
Interesting.

By RAW, I think yes, you fail. Action Before Thought allows you to substitute a Concentration check for the numerical result of a Reflex save. But if you have a flat rule saying that you automatically fail all Reflex saves, period, then it doesn't matter what you roll for the save, you still fail.

In game terms, you can't move, so it doesn't matter how insightful your reflexes are, because you can't do anything about it.

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 04:57 PM
This was my thought as well, but I wasn't sure. Thanks Saph!

FMArthur
2009-08-14, 05:56 PM
I really want to know what kind of game you're playing if you can consider making a character that is unable to move. :smallconfused:

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 05:59 PM
I really want to know what kind of game you're playing if you can consider making a character that is unable to move. :smallconfused:

This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6661298&postcount=4). textextext

- Ingrain (Ex): As a full-round action, a Barkheart can take root or uproot itself. While rooted, the Barkheart is unable to move and gains a Dexterity score of null, making it immune to damage to that score, but causing it to automatically fail Reflex Saves. While ingrained, a Barkheart applies its Strength modifier to armor class instead of its Dexterity modifier, and has no limits on the attacks of opportunity it can make per round. A Barkheart with its Strength or Dexterity reduced to 0 automatically ingrains itself, and remains so until the appropriate score becomes 1 or higher once more.

Stegyre
2009-08-15, 06:45 AM
In game terms, you can't move, so it doesn't matter how insightful your reflexes are, because you can't do anything about it.
With that thought, I suppose that another reason it would not work is that you must be able to move in order to execute any maneuver, don't you? So an immobile character/creature is just out-of-luck when it comes to ToB maneuvers.

AstralFire
2009-08-15, 07:11 AM
With that thought, I suppose that another reason it would not work is that you must be able to move in order to execute any maneuver, don't you? So an immobile character/creature is just out-of-luck when it comes to ToB maneuvers.

Strength Null relates inability to move anything; Dexterity Null relates inability to move your whole body well.

Stegyre
2009-08-15, 07:31 AM
Strength Null relates inability to move anything; Dexterity Null relates inability to move your whole body well.
My recollection is that ToB is not too clear on what it means by its must-be-able-to-move requirement, so this probably isn't RAW. Nevertheless, it seems ripe for a houserule that anything that lacks a strength or a dexterity score cannot execute a maneuver.

sofawall
2009-08-15, 01:44 PM
Didn't dex null make you unable to move, too?


Dexterity

Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score canít move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.

And ToB maneuvers require you to be able to move.

EDIT: Heh, that monster seems to be a trap. Sure, you have no limit to amount of AoOs you can make, but you can't move, so what's the point?

Note how it doesn't say move action, or clarify whether it speaks of moving as moving from 1 5ft. square to another, or whether dex 0 means you can't move, at all. I suppose it would be different for a creature with null dex than 0 dex. 0 dex is stiff as a board, if I recall, but "Dex: --" just might not be able to move from one square to another.

AstralFire
2009-08-15, 02:08 PM
Didn't dex null make you unable to move, too?



And ToB maneuvers require you to be able to move.

EDIT: Heh, that monster seems to be a trap. Sure, you have no limit to amount of AoOs you can make, but you can't move, so what's the point?

Note how it doesn't say move action, or clarify whether it speaks of moving as moving from 1 5ft. square to another, or whether dex 0 means you can't move, at all. I suppose it would be different for a creature with null dex than 0 dex. 0 dex is stiff as a board, if I recall, but "Dex: --" just might not be able to move from one square to another.

It's not intended to be a trap, but I worry that it might be. I'm trying to make PC races that are outside the box, but well, the box is kept for a reason, so it is not easy.

sofawall
2009-08-15, 04:03 PM
Yeah, the problem is what, exactly, the difference is between Dex -- and Dex 0.

Arbitrarity
2009-08-15, 04:32 PM
Yeah, I'd just drop the "dex null", but leave the remaining effects. It's easier to define the exact effects that way, and doesn't have weird things like being totally unable to move.
Also, IMHO, there should be more benefits for being rooted, but that's another tangent.

AstralFire
2009-08-15, 04:34 PM
Feel free to leave in feedback in the linked topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6661298&postcount=4). :) The races have been very thoroughly given great flavor feedback thanks to Neoclassic, but as most of them are pulled from several-year-old notes and only got a bare overlook, I could use more mechanical scrutiny - a lot of it. Most of my mechanical attention has been on my Avatar baby lately.

I would be very grateful!