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alternaloser
2009-08-17, 12:50 PM
Okay, so I know like all things D&D it's situational and subjective to a certain extent, but if you somehow rolled all 18s what class do you think would be most benefited by these stats? What prestige class if any would you add? I'm curious about a 1-20 (or higher) progression. Some classes have more ability scores which are relevant than others and I just want to hear some opinions. :)

Jack Zander
2009-08-17, 12:52 PM
With all 18's a monk becomes somewhat viable. Same with paladins.

The best class to use with all 18s? The same class that's the best for anything, wizard.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-17, 12:54 PM
Cleric becomes much more Zilla with all 18s. Same with an Archerficer. Really, though Monks and Paladins need the buff, they're still nowhere near a Wizard or Druid with a 36 pt-buy.

Person_Man
2009-08-17, 01:04 PM
Well you'd rock at low levels regardless of what you pick - high hit points, initiative, AC, Skill Points, Saves, etc. Your best bet would be to heavily multi-class in classes that rely on stats to boost an ability. Something like Paladin 2/Swordsage 2/Warblade 1/etc.

But by mid-high levels, you can only afford to spend your limited gp to improve 1 or 2 stats, and then pile the rest of your into a magic weapon, armor, protections, wands, whatever. You can't afford to to maximize 4 different stats. You'd also want to maximize your progression on a single list of class abilities (spells, psionics, ToB manuevers, soulmelds, etc) and want your class abilities to run off of one attribute to maximize the Save DCs of your primary class ability.

For example, a Wizard 5/Full Progression Prestige Class 6 with decent Con and maxed out Int could probably kick the tar out of some mish mashed multi-class build, because he has 6th level spells and access to higher level (and usually more powerful) class abilities. And for the most party, it really doesn't matter what his Str/Dex/Wis/Cha are (though high Dex would be helpful for some builds).

Eloel
2009-08-17, 01:12 PM
A Rogue sure likes the buff about as much as Monk & Paladin.
18 Str is much-needed for carrying limits on the frail rogue.
18 Dex is pretty much self explaining
18 Con gets the puny d6 HD pretty much irrelevant
18 Int gives 12 SP/level, every single one mattering to the huge class-skill list. (Being a Human gives another SP, which STILL is needed)
18 Wis buffs the low Will saves, and lets Rogue (usually the party scout) actually DO scout (Listen & Spot).
18 Cha is ever-so-useful for the gazillions of social skills and the much needed UMD.

They are useful to many other classes, but Monk, Paladin, Rogue and Ranger are among the ones that need it the most.

Milskidasith
2009-08-17, 01:16 PM
Uhh... rogues don't need to max out on 13 skills. Search, Spot, Listen, Disable Device, and party face skills take up maybe 10 different skills... the rest are more optional things, and you really don't need to max nearly that many skills. Strength is useless once you have... uhhh... any money at all, because a donkey or a handy haversack removes that from the equation, and charisma is a small bonus to skills, but not nearly as useful as any other attribute (it only pays off if you actually have a charisma requiring class feature.)

Telonius
2009-08-17, 01:16 PM
I think there are two ways you could look at this question: which class would be the best, given all 18's, and which class would be the most improved given all 18s, versus normal rolling or point buy. The answer to the first is probably going to be Wizard. As to the second, it would be the class that has the worst case of MAD. Paladin and Monk are good candidates for that one.

Monk requires strength to hit and damage, Wisdom to power Stunning Fist and AC, Dex to AC, Con to not die. Int and Cha are the obvious dump stats (leaving aside things like Kung Fu Genius). But with the amount of scouting a Monk can expect to do, a reasonable amount of INT is almost required. So, one stat (Cha) is a near-total dump stat.

As for Paladin, Str to hit; Con to not die; Cha for grace, smite, and turn undead; Dex for AC; Wis for spellcasting. Paladin only gets 2+int skill points per level, so without a decent INT, it's not looking too good for any kind of skill check. Each stat gives him something.

I'd say that Paladin narrowly wins on that question.

AstralFire
2009-08-17, 01:21 PM
Telonius wins the thread on both points. Well-presented.

I'd personally take this as a chance to play a Monk or Paladin and not suck.

Starscream
2009-08-17, 01:21 PM
I like the rogue idea, myself. With a high powered class like wizard you are making an already too good thing better. With a low powered class like monk you are just making up for the deficiencies and getting something mediocre.

But a rogue could genuinely benefit from all the stats without becoming overpowered. Good damage, agility, hit points, skills, will saves, and social skills. The perfect rogue!

Factotum would be another excellent choice. They are intended to be a "jack of all trades", so being genuinely good at everything would really compliment the class.

Kylarra
2009-08-17, 01:24 PM
Factotum/Chameleon! Be the best at everything you do! :smalltongue:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-17, 01:26 PM
Uhh... rogues don't need to max out on 13 skills. Search, Spot, Listen, Disable Device, and party face skills take up maybe 10 different skills... the rest are more optional things, and you really don't need to max nearly that many skills. Appraise
Balance(5 ranks)
Bluff(social)
Diplomacy(social)
Disable Device
Disguise(optional)
Escape Artist(optional but wanted)
Hide
Intimidate(social)
Knowledges(optional)
Listen(optional but wanted)
Move Silently
Open Lock
Search
Sense Motive(social)
Sleight Of Hand(optional)
Spot(optional but wanted)
Tumble
Use Magic Device
7 skills you basically need, 4 more if you want to do the social stuff, 3 more that you heartily want. And that ignores any Knowledges or prerequisites.

Saph
2009-08-17, 01:57 PM
I'm going to disagree with the people saying Wizard and vote for Cleric. With normal stats they're on par with a Wizard, and they benefit far more from all 18s.

Clerics can use their 18s in Strength for melee (Divine Power on top of an 18 Str, woo!), Dex for AC and initiative (dump that full plate and pick up a chain shirt), Con for toughness (like you weren't tough enough already), Int for skills (they actually have a decent skill list, it's just you normally don't have the points to get many), Wis for casting, and Cha for Turn Undead. By contrast, Wizards pretty much never use Strength, Wisdom, or Charisma.

- Saph

valadil
2009-08-17, 01:59 PM
I'd go with a venerable wizard. You'd drop your physical stats to 12, which is still pretty survivable.

Eldariel
2009-08-17, 02:10 PM
Cleric is indeed very amazing. Druid wouldn't be too bad either if using Aspect of Nature-variant or such; otherwise those stats are kinda wasted on a Druid. That said, Druids are so ridiculous that it doesn't really matter, they still kick ass (yes, I'd pick a Druid over a Wizard for most levels).


Frankly, some more MAD classes would really shine here. Archivist with Turning-dip would really rock, probably even more so than a Cleric. The Archivist Archer would indeed enjoy those stats tremendously as you want all stats for that (Int for casting, Wis for bonus spells, Cha for Turn Undead-uses from Sacred Exorcist, Dex for archery, Con for HP and Str for damage; saves you a feat on Zen Archery, though you might want it anyways to make full use of Owl's Insight).

Cleric Archer wouldn't be that far behind (mostly because of the bonus feats from Domains; might be that Archivist would ultimately want that Cleric-dip in spite of losing a CL to get 3 bonus feats and earlier access to Turning), but with those stats Archivist pulls ahead thanks to access to the Ranger- and Druid-lists.

Wizard Gish would also love those stats. Wizard in general could do the mentioned "Venerable"-trade and get some sweet Int buffs. Heh, Venerable Lesser Tiefling with 23 Int on level 1 would be pretty amazing. Make it Dragonborn to maintain 14 Con (though only 12 Dex that way).


Fighter would actually benefit quite a bit given enough sources; you'd have access to the Combat Expertise-line WHILE maintaining access to Imperious Command and sufficient Str to use Tripping, Dungeoncrasher and such, and Dex for Combat Reflexes. Two-Weapon Fighting fighter-type could indeed do all that while Str-focusing his Two-Weapon Fighting (using the inherent Dex to qualify for the TWF feats).

The sad part is that two-handing would still be better. Mostly, this would enable builds rather than classes (though it's true that Monk and Paladin would love this, and Cleric would quite possibly usurp the Best Core Class title from Druid); many kinds of builds are simply not doable due to requiring multiple stats to be efficient. Bard-based Dervish needs Cha, Con, Dex, Str and Int (for Combat Expertise) and is thus almost unplayable normally, but with these rules only feat-starved.

Mando Knight
2009-08-17, 03:18 PM
Dex for AC and initiative (dump that full plate and pick up a chain shirt)

Except for speed and Armor Check Penalty, Full Plate is still better. Mithral Full Plate is even better than that.

Eldariel
2009-08-17, 03:26 PM
Except for speed and Armor Check Penalty, Full Plate is still better. Mithral Full Plate is even better than that.

And Celestial Armor is the fairest of them all! Though with 18 starting Dex, you can quickly reach the point where your best bet is frankly Bracers of Armor and/or Monk's Belt if you put any effort into upping your Wis/Dex.

Tetsubo 57
2009-08-17, 04:15 PM
I'm going to go with Monk on this. Possibly even an Orc Monk for some flavor.

Saph
2009-08-17, 04:29 PM
Except for speed and Armor Check Penalty, Full Plate is still better. Mithral Full Plate is even better than that.

Mithral Shirt is +6 max dex, +4 AC. Mithral Plate is +3 max dex, +8 AC. But Mithral Plate cuts your speed and gives you a hefty armour check penalty, and if you're facing touch attacks it's actually worse than wearing no armour at all.

Personally, I'd take the chain shirt. I generally find that moving fast is a better defence than one extra point of AC.

Mark Hall
2009-08-18, 11:09 AM
Mithral Shirt is +6 max dex, +4 AC. Mithral Plate is +3 max dex, +8 AC. But Mithral Plate cuts your speed and gives you a hefty armour check penalty, and if you're facing touch attacks it's actually worse than wearing no armour at all.

Personally, I'd take the chain shirt. I generally find that moving fast is a better defence than one extra point of AC.

Course, you could compromise and go with Mithral breastplate.

aje8
2009-08-18, 11:23 AM
In terms of best class, I'd say it's clearly Cleric NOT Wizard.

Wizards need 2-3 stats.... Int, Con and sometimes Dex depending on spells.

A DMM Persitent melee-oriented Cleric wants alot more stats..... said cleric needs Cha, Wisdom, Con and Strength. This allows them to actually make use of their large number of good stats.

Basically, +1 w/ what Saph said.

In terms of most improved class, Monks have several problems other than mad. How about a Gish? I'd say a Gish-y class such as Duskblade is going to be most improved.

Talya
2009-08-18, 11:28 AM
Factotum goes from jack of all trades, to nearly a master of all trades with all 18s.

Draz74
2009-08-18, 11:38 AM
Warblade can make great use of all 18s. (Charisma for the Diplomacy and Intimidate skills you're maxing out, Wisdom just for Will saves, the others should be obvious.) Swordsages, similarly; Wisdom becomes very important, while Charisma is still at least semi-useful for Intimidating.

Paladin, Monk, sure. Or even Monk 2 / Paladin X (:miko:) might become viable.

Another weak class that might get redeemed by such uber stats is Dragon Shaman. (Hey look, my DS actually has skill points!)

Obviously Tier 1 classes are still the potential winners. Cleric and Artificer can use all the 18s better than Wizard, Druid, and Archivist can.

Factotum can indeed use any stat, if you take ranks in the right skills. Rogue, too. Psychic Warrior / Slayer is another good candidate (Slayer has a good class skill list to use your INT on, including Bluff to give you a reason to care about CHA).

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 11:46 AM
Obviously Tier 1 classes are still the potential winners. Cleric and Artificer can use all the 18s better than Wizard, Druid, and Archivist can.

This one seems a bit weird to me. Archivists have two casting stats, easy access to turning and able to Zilla just as much as a Cleric; if anything they use their stats more due to Int being very useful to them as well as Wis and Cha and Con and Dex and Str.

aje8
2009-08-18, 11:48 AM
This one seems a bit weird to me. Archivists have two casting stats, easy access to turning and able to Zilla just as much as a Cleric; if anything they use their stats more due to Int being very useful to them as well as Wis and Cha and Con and Dex and Str.

Problem is, turning is a really weak and situational ability making Charisma only mildly useful.

With DMM, it goes from mildly useful to your best stat.

That's why I'd say Cleric (possibly Cleric Archer) is the single best class for all 18s.

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 11:54 AM
Problem is, turning is a really weak and situational ability making Charisma only mildly useful.

With DMM, it goes from mildly useful to your best stat.

That's why I'd say Cleric (possibly Cleric Archer) is the single best class for all 18s.

That's what Archivist uses the Turning for too. Well, that or Divine Spell Power or Spontaneous Domain (or maybe Divine Shield or Might when Zillaing). Nobody in their right mind actually turns undead, but it's a power source that empowers many superb feats.

Archivist still gets more out of the Int (Dark Knowledges & casting) while getting the same out of all other classes so I'd say it benefits more of all-18s than the Cleric.

Draz74
2009-08-18, 11:58 AM
Archivist still gets more out of the Int (Dark Knowledges & casting) while getting the same out of all other classes so I'd say it benefits more of all-18s than the Cleric.

Maybe. I just don't think of Archivists as ever entering melee, so STR, at least, seems pretty useless. Possibly DEX too.

But hey, maybe with DMM and all 18s you could actually make an Archivist do fine in melee.

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 12:02 PM
Maybe. I just don't think of Archivists as ever entering melee, so STR, at least, seems pretty useless. Possibly DEX too.

But hey, maybe with DMM and all 18s you could actually make an Archivist do fine in melee.

You can make the most amazing Archivist Archer ever. All Cleric, Ranger (they've got a ton of awesome Archery-spells) and the few Druid-buffs ( la Wind Tunnel) for Archery on one character along with DMM: Persist, Str to damage, Dex to attack with and so on.

Of course, with DMM: Persist, Zillaing isn't really hard at all either. Divine Power, Righteous Might, Divine Favor, go to town! With those turn attempts, much more available.

MichielHagen
2009-08-18, 12:09 PM
I remember i once build a Warlock and it could use every stat.

Other than that i am currently building a Warblade/Swordsage/Wizard/Abjurant Champion

without going into too much detail:
STR: he is a melee-er
DEX: adds to AC and stuff
CON: every character wants this
INT: Caster
WIS: also adds to AC and stuff
CHA: not so much needed, though it would allow me to take a feat that i can use CHA number of times, cannot remember which, since i knew my CHA would be my lowest stat.

MichielHagen
2009-08-18, 12:13 PM
Problem is, turning is a really weak and situational ability making Charisma only mildly useful.

With DMM, it goes from mildly useful to your best stat.

That's why I'd say Cleric (possibly Cleric Archer) is the single best class for all 18s.

Would it really profit much from a INT 18?

BTW, your own argument against Archivist you use in pro of Cleric, that doesn't seem fair :smallwink:

Sanguine
2009-08-18, 12:15 PM
Would it really profit much from a INT 18?

Two Words: Skill Points

Doc Roc
2009-08-18, 12:17 PM
Look! I'm a favored soul or a cleric! :: flops around contentedly in his little tidal pool and stares up at you with oddly fish-like eyes ::

MichielHagen
2009-08-18, 12:17 PM
Two Words: Skill Points

Ah, and other classes don't have any skills, i get it....

Sanguine
2009-08-18, 12:20 PM
Ah, and other classes don't have any skills, i get it....

Don't know what your saying here but what I meant was everyone benefits from a high Int do to Skill Points.

Jack Zander
2009-08-18, 12:46 PM
A wizard with 1 18 and 5 8s still beats an all 18 cleric.

woodenbandman
2009-08-18, 01:29 PM
CW Samurai.

That, or Commoner.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-18, 01:29 PM
I think this makes Monk pretty viable. You have limited gear requirements, since a Necklace of Natural Attacks and Monk's Belt take care of your "weapon" and "armor" needs pretty well. You've already got good base saving throws, and +4 to all of them is the equivalent of a Cloak of Resistance +4. So you can save your money to get a Sparring Dummy of the Master (30,000 gp; Arms and Equipment Guide) and train to get 10' adjustments instead of just 5' steps. (After training you can sell it back for half price.) Freeing up funds normally required for gear just to keep you alive gives your Monk an uncommon tactical movement option.

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 02:34 PM
Don't know what your saying here but what I meant was everyone benefits from a high Int do to Skill Points.

He means it's not an advantage over any other class so it cannot be used to weight for the importance of the stat comparatively here since that part is the same for everyone. The second you have some class feature derived off Int as a Cleric, let me know.

Kylarra
2009-08-18, 02:39 PM
He means it's not an advantage over any other class so it cannot be used to weight for the importance of the stat comparatively here since that part is the same for everyone. The second you have some class feature derived off Int as a Cleric, let me know.Knowledge Devotion could theoretically count. :smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2009-08-18, 02:47 PM
Knowledge Devotion could theoretically count. :smallbiggrin:
If you go Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), I think you've got a valid point.

Saph
2009-08-18, 02:51 PM
He means it's not an advantage over any other class so it cannot be used to weight for the importance of the stat comparatively here since that part is the same for everyone. The second you have some class feature derived off Int as a Cleric, let me know.

While this is true, Int is about the only stat a Cleric doesn't directly use. Str, Dex, Con, Wis, and Cha are all great for them. By contrast, a Wizard uses Int, Con, and maybe Dex, while a Druid uses pretty much nothing but Wis and Con.

Kylarra
2009-08-18, 02:53 PM
If you go Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), I think you've got a valid point.You play in some strange land where CCs aren't the default! :smalltongue:


but yeah, I meant if you were a CC.

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 02:56 PM
While this is true, Int is about the only stat a Cleric doesn't directly use. Str, Dex, Con, Wis, and Cha are all great for them. By contrast, a Wizard uses Int, Con, and maybe Dex, while a Druid uses pretty much nothing but Wis and Con.

Yeah. My point was that Archivist is the same (assuming the Sacred Exorcist-dip), except uses Int directly too.

aje8
2009-08-18, 02:57 PM
A wizard with 1 18 and 5 8s still beats an all 18 cleric.
At level 20? Sure.

At any level <10..... Cleric is much better..... honestly I'd say the Cleric has the edge over the majority of levels.

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 02:59 PM
At level 20? Sure.

At any level <10..... Cleric is much better..... honestly I'd say the Cleric has the edge over the majority of levels.

Depends on the Cleric, actually. It's fully possible to build a Cleric with access to all Wizard's relevant spells.

Doc Roc
2009-08-18, 03:12 PM
Yeah. My point was that Archivist is the same (assuming the Sacred Exorcist-dip), except uses Int directly too.

Assuming someone is crazy enough to allow it, I vote for Archivist instead of my earlier cleric\favesoul. Or maybe a psionicist of some flavor. How would Ardent do?

ex cathedra
2009-08-18, 03:22 PM
Archivist-zilla. Throw in SacEx and... anything else, and be better at everything than almost anyone.

Then again, a Rainbow Servant (Warmage/Beguiler/DN) gish with some form of turning would be spectacular, as well. As would, of course, a wizard of the gish flavor.

Person_Man
2009-08-18, 03:25 PM
Snip
7 skills you basically need, 4 more if you want to do the social stuff, 3 more that you heartily want. And that ignores any Knowledges or prerequisites.

I have a few minor disagreements with your list. Many of the Skills are only useful in very specific circumstances, and many can be replaced by simple low level spells:

Appraise: Every DM I know will let you sell treasure you find for 50% of the listed price, without a need to negotiate. So it's only useful if you spend a lot of time picking pockets or breaking and entering.
Balance(5 ranks): Agreed. 5 ranks for the synergy bonus and insurance against Grease and the occasional wacky deathtrap is all you need.
Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate/Sense Motive: If you really want to be the party face, then Bluff or Diplomacy + Sense Motive are pretty much required. But beyond that, you need not waste Skill Points unless you want to make a Demoralize build with Intimidate.
Disable Device: Easily replaced by various spells. Just use Shatter or a Summons.
Disguise(optional): Easily replaced by various spells.
Escape Artist(optional but wanted): I'd call this very optional unless your DM uses Grapple a lot and someone in your party isn't capable of casting or buying an item which grants Freedom of Movement or Dimension Door or something similar.
Hide/Move Silently: I'm a big fan of stealth tactics. But if you're the only one who invests in these Skills, then you're going to have to fight by yourself (or be good at running) if an enemy ever beats you on an opposed check. And if everyone does invest in these Skills, then the law of averages states that someone is going to roll poorly, giving away the entire group. So in most cases, you can just cast Invisibility and Move Silently.
Knowledges(optional): Agreed. Mostly useful for roleplaying and certain feats.
Listen(optional but wanted) and Spot(optional but wanted): Agreed. I'd add that it's always a good idea to have at least one person in the party with maxed out Listen and Spot, and that if your DM is fond of ambushes, everyone should do it.
Open Lock: Cast Shatter.
Search: Only useful if you care about sneaking up on the enemy. Otherwise, just buy dogs and play fetch down the dungeon corridors, or Summon something.
Sleight Of Hand(optional): Agreed. Useful if you max it out and can use it as a free action. Otherwise, it's a waste.
Tumble: Agreed. Though the DCs are fixed.
Use Magic Device: Agreed. Though UMD is only necessary if your party's casters are stingy with their spells. If you play as a team and collaborate on your builds, I've found that it's not very necessary. And note that like Tumble, the DCs are fixed.


So that me with a much more limited list of must have Skills. Assuming 18 in all stats, you need:

Balance: 5 ranks (+2 Synergy to Tumble)
Tumble: 9 ranks
UMD: 15 ranks to activate wands if your party casters are stingy.
Listen and Spot: Maxed unless someone else in your party has it maxed.
Diplomacy/Sense Motive: Maxed if you want to be the party face.

The various stealth Skills are only useful if your entire party is geared toward stealth tactics, and the rest (while handy) are pretty much only NEEDED for pre-reqs, fluff, roleplaying, and build specific niches.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-18, 03:29 PM
You give me all 18s, I'm rolling Indiana Jones a Bard.

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 03:36 PM
Assuming someone is crazy enough to allow it, I vote for Archivist instead of my earlier cleric\favesoul. Or maybe a psionicist of some flavor. How would Ardent do?

Ardent would do ok, but has absolutely no need for Int and Cha. Frankly, psionics in general tends towards SAD characters and benefits little here, outside multicasting/manifesting progression classes (which obviously benefit greatly of this).

Fax Celestis
2009-08-18, 03:43 PM
Ardent would do ok, but has absolutely no need for Int and Cha. Frankly, psionics in general tends towards SAD characters and benefits little here, outside multicasting/manifesting progression classes (which obviously benefit greatly of this).

...Ardent/Psion/Ultimate Magus psionic adaptation? :P

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 03:56 PM
...Ardent/Psion/Ultimate Magus psionic adaptation? :P

Toss Wilder in there somehow and you've got it :P

Draz74
2009-08-18, 04:10 PM
He means it's not an advantage over any other class so it cannot be used to weight for the importance of the stat comparatively here since that part is the same for everyone.

It's really not, though. Every class can use more skill points, but some really groan about how little skill points they get, while others feel like they're getting by OK. Cleric? Well, do they even know how to tie their shoes? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0134.html) Cleric is probably the most skill point-starved class in the PHB, except for Sorcerer and Paladin.

Classes that are normally more skill point-starved benefit more from 18 INT than other classes, all else being equal. Also, classes that normally use INT as a dump stat benefit more from an 18 INT, by comparison, than classes that already tend to choose a high INT.


Ardent would do ok, but has absolutely no need for Int and Cha.

Hmmm ... Ardent with 18 INT could pull off Knowledge Devotion, the Knowledge Mantle, and spam the Call to Mind power ... fun ...

#Raptor
2009-08-18, 06:24 PM
I'm going to disagree with the people saying Wizard and vote for Cleric. With normal stats they're on par with a Wizard, and they benefit far more from all 18s.

Clerics can use their 18s in Strength for melee (Divine Power on top of an 18 Str, woo!), Dex for AC and initiative (dump that full plate and pick up a chain shirt), Con for toughness (like you weren't tough enough already), Int for skills (they actually have a decent skill list, it's just you normally don't have the points to get many), Wis for casting, and Cha for Turn Undead. By contrast, Wizards pretty much never use Strength, Wisdom, or Charisma.

- SaphWith all 18's, I'd prefer Cloistered Cleric over the regular Cleric.

1 hp less per level doesn't hurt much if you're starting with a 18 in Con, and due to having 18 Dex you'll be just fine with light armor profiency (as you said - chain shirt). Oh, and... 10 skillpoints/lvl for nonhumans... :smallsmile:
Divine power takes care of the bab, as usual.

tiercel
2009-08-18, 07:05 PM
You give me all 18s, I'm rolling Indiana Jones a Bard.

Thank you.

Yeah, sure, fine, the "top tier" classes are still "top tier" even with uber-stats. But why wouldn't you want to play a class with some MAD issues that becomes *that much better* with all 18s?

Bard is a pretty decent class -- it's not CoDzilla or Batman Wizard, but it holds its own when played well. And as far as MAD goes -- Wisdom is about the only stat that isn't pretty useful to the bard class without any particular build (and at least Listen and Sense Motive would get some boost, in addition to cranking an already-good Will save).

You could really crank up playing your bard with all 18s. Your all-18 wizard is going to play pretty much like any other wizard.

Monk and paladin, as mentioned, obviously get this effect too. But (1) I really like bards and (2) if you buy the whole "tiered" thing, bards are already in a decent tier and get pretty much at least of a boost as monk or paladin (and if the "tier" thing gets your goat, well, bards have pretty much better spellcasting than anything without full casting progression, plus more).

Ripped Shirt Kirk
2009-08-19, 02:39 AM
Be a bard! They are MEANT to be a jack of all trades! Now you can be a QUEEN of all trades! But seriously, be one of every class except bard.

Eloel
2009-08-19, 02:51 AM
At L1, Psion will be one of the best out there with all 18s, the carrying capacity works wonders when you don't have somatic components and don't care about ASF.
Between Halfling, Studded Leather and Heavy Shield, you have AC21 On top of your full-casting situation.

MichielHagen
2009-08-19, 03:55 AM
And what about Wis and Cha?

Eloel
2009-08-19, 04:27 AM
I'm not talking of 'most improved', just 'best'. Sort of like how a L20 Wizard would beat L20 Paladin any day, even though Paladin benefits more from the 18s...

Saph
2009-08-19, 04:36 AM
Actually, at low levels, Paladin would be a lot of fun with all 18s. You could pretty much walk through anything that allowed a saving throw without even noticing.

Eloel
2009-08-19, 04:38 AM
Actually, at low levels, Paladin would be a lot of fun with all 18s. You could pretty much walk through anything that allowed a saving throw without even noticing.

Same with Monk actually. Or rather, better with Monk, with Evasion & Good Reflex saves and the ability to buff your AC higher without resorting to Heavy Armor...

Wings of Peace
2009-08-19, 04:43 AM
Sorcerer 3/Incarnate 6/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Soul Caster 6/Tainted Scholar 2. It's cheezy, it uses a really cheap system mechanic for it's casting, and it can cast meta-magics of up to +6 level for free with Strongheart Vest. Those 18's will raise your potential Corruption and Depravity scores nicely to boot.

Also:


I'm not talking of 'most improved', just 'best'. Sort of like how a L20 Wizard would beat L20 Paladin any day, even though Paladin benefits more from the 18s...

With Sword of the Arcane Order the paladin could at least to some extent in theory put up a fight. Those 18's mean the INT requirement isn't as MAD inducing.

Eldariel
2009-08-19, 10:48 AM
With Sword of the Arcane Order the paladin could at least to some extent in theory put up a fight. Those 18's mean the INT requirement isn't as MAD inducing.

Eh, level 4 spells isn't enough to beat level 9 spells. Sure, he gets Celerity, but Wizard still has Moment of Prescience, Foresight, Time Stop, Maw of Chaos, Disjunction, Chain Greater Dispel Magic, Contingency, Instant Refuge, Shapechange, and a whole crapton of other ridiculous spells over him that will make the Wizard go first and will make the Paladin FALL!

HCL
2009-08-19, 11:03 AM
If I rolled really high in at least 4 stats I would take it as an opportunity to play a halforc paladin

Godskook
2009-08-19, 11:53 AM
I'd go Wizard/Archivist/MT or Druid/Wizard/AH, but that's just me.

Deepblue706
2009-08-19, 01:29 PM
Complete Warrior Samurai.