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rezplz
2009-08-17, 04:05 PM
So one of my friends is trying to make a build that has 135 foot speed at level 20, but someone from some other forum was saying that some of his bonuses wouldn't stack, so he asked me to ask you guys.

The build has one level of barbarian, which has an untyped +10 ft speed.
One level of druidic avenger, which he says ALSO has an untyped +10 ft speed.
Then he has 18 levels of scout, which give some sick enhancement bonuses to speed apparently. Don't know much about the class myself.
And then he has some feat from some book or something that gives +5 ft speed, I think.


Since the speed bonuses from barbarian and druidic avenger are untyped, I think they should stack with the rest of it, but I wanted to see what you guys think.

Edit: Apparently the feat is called dash, from the complete warrior.

Keld Denar
2009-08-17, 04:13 PM
Technically.....Druidic Avenger is a UA variant that gives a druid a handful of features from the Barbarian. So...its kinda the same thing. RAW wise, they stack.

Scouts speed increase is an enhancement bonus. It doesn't stack with any other enhancement bonuses to speed, including that of the monk, or that given by the Expeditious Retreat spell or Haste spell.

Dash would stack with everything as well.

sonofzeal
2009-08-17, 04:16 PM
He may want to change his race to Catfolk (+10 speed), dip PsiWar and use the feats for Speed of Thought (+10 speed), dip the Deities and Demigods PrC "Berserker" (+10 speed), and get his legs replaced with rollers (Maug Graft, +20/+30 speed, can't remember which).

kc0bbq
2009-08-17, 04:21 PM
Ehh, with double moves that's only 2.3 seconds faster on a 100m dash than Usain Bolt's new world record. 7.29 second 100m at a brisk walk.

It is fantasy. :P

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-17, 04:26 PM
Ok, so this is the friend (I should've just made an account to ask this question in the first place).

Anyway, my main question is simply if the Fast Movement from Barbarian will stack with the Fast Movement from other classes, like Druidic Avenger. I read somewhere that they wouldn't because they are considered to be "the same source", but I wasn't sure about that because they're coming from different classes.

rezplz
2009-08-17, 04:30 PM
Psh yeah you shoulda just made the account yourself. You know how unreliable I am, fool!

oooh, something shiny, hold on a second...


ANYWHO. So from what I understand I guess it's DM's discretion if the fast movement from barbarian and druidic avenger would stack? That's what I'm getting out of this.

sadi
2009-08-17, 04:32 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking

Unnamed sources the +5 feat is from complete warrior, dash. The druidic ability says it works the same as the barbarian ability. Both are unnamed. The scout ability is an enhancement bonus of +20. IF you're wearing light or no armor you would have a total of +45 to your speed or 75 for a normal creature. Which is slower than a monk can move at 20. Unless hes trying to claim monk movement on top, which is an enhancement bonus and does not stack.

The highest legal speed i can see is 18 monk for +60 enhance, +10 unnamed for level 1 barb, or +10 unnamed for druid variant, and +5 for feat unnamed.
The fact you have to be lawful and can't be lawful gives some more issues. But ignoring all the problems of that you could hit 105 for a medium creature. Besides anything that might give insight, luck or other random specifically named types of speed bonus.


(edit kylarra is right as written, atleast in the srd you do not gain +10, they both do the same thing, so only one would apply since they specifically state +10 over base speed for your race)

Kylarra
2009-08-17, 04:37 PM
Well technically there is no stacking involved. :p


Fast Movement (Ex)

A druidic avenger's base land speed is faster than the norm for her race by 10 feet. This ability is identical to the barbarian ability of the same name.

Fast Movement (Ex)

A barbarianís land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarianís speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

Both of them say that you're faster than your race's base speed by 10, not that this is a +10 bonus to your speed, so no stackage for you.

Compare to

Speed Of Thought [Psionic]

The energy of your mind energizes the alacrity of your body.
Prerequisite

Wis 13.
Benefit

As long as you are psionically focused and not wearing heavy armor, you gain an insight bonus to your speed of 10 feet.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-17, 04:40 PM
Excellent, I'm liking what I'm seeing. I was hoping that what I saw before was wrong.

woodenbandman
2009-08-17, 06:03 PM
An item of Continuous Expeditious Retreat, level 1, is a few thousand gp. That's +30, but it doesn't stack with scout, which is an enhancement bonus as well. If I recall, though, the scout only gives you 15 ft speed anyway, so good deal.

Alter self changes your base land speed, increasing it to up to 60. Monk gives you a good bonus, but it's A an enhancement bonus and B a sucky class. There has to be more to this. I think there's a druid spell in the Spell compendium that will enable you to charge at 10x speed once.

ColdSepp
2009-08-17, 06:26 PM
The dark template gives you a 50% boost in speed to all your movement modes, IIRC.

sofawall
2009-08-17, 07:00 PM
That's Shadow.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-17, 11:47 PM
Quick trait gives you +10.

Or you could just Persist Footsteps of the Divine. :smallwink:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-18, 12:07 AM
I'll agree with Kylarra about the Druidic Avenger and Barbarian bonuses not stacking. Dash is unnamed and extremely weak as a feat choice, so it should stack with everything. Scout doesn't get much of a bonus:

Fast Movement (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a scoutís
gains a +10 foot enhancement bonus to her base land
speed. At 11th level, this bonus increases to +20 feet.
See the monk class feature, page 41 of the Playerís
Handbook.
A scout loses this benefit when wearing medium
or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy
load.
Scout only gets +20 feet, not whatever bonus a Monk would get, and certainly not +20 feet more than what a Monk would get. It shouldn't even be referencing the Monk class feature at all, except to explain that it works the same way but with a different bonus and rate of progression. You're the DM, tell him that this is the case because it's what is written, regardless of what he thinks the wording may imply.

It looks like he's using a 30 ft. race, +10 Barbarian, +10 Druidic Avenger, +60 Monk, +20 Scout, +5 Dash, for a 135 ft. total. This is not the case, because Scout grants its own fast movement class feature, not the Monk fast movement class feature. There are perfectly legitimate ways of making a character even faster than that at this level, without relying on trying to make the wording imply something that was never intended.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-18, 12:40 AM
An item of Continuous Expeditious Retreat, level 1, is a few thousand gp.
No, it's not. There are no such standard items, and pricing for custom items always uses similar magical gear as a guideline for cost before the spell price formula. So no, that "few thousand" is bogus.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-18, 01:07 AM
No, it's not. There are no such standard items, and pricing for custom items always uses similar magical gear as a guideline for cost before the spell price formula. So no, that "few thousand" is bogus.

Boots of Striding and Springing: +10 ft. land speed (Longstrider), +5 Jump (Competence), item caster level 3, cost 5500 gp
Skill Bonus (Competence): bonus squared x100 gp = 2500 gp
Spell Effect (Longstrider): spell level (1) x caster level (1) x 2000 gp, no adjustment for 1 hour/level duration = 2000 gp
Multiple effects: lower cost effect is 50% higher: 2500 + (2000 x 1.5) = 5500 gp
Boots of Striding and Springing use the standard spell effect rules for magic item pricing, thus setting a precedent for any item that increases movement rate.

Boots of Expeditious Retreat would be spell level (1) x caster level (1) x 2000 gp, x2 for a 1 minute/level spell = 4000 gp
Yes, it is extremely cheap for how useful it is. This is exactly why I've implemented a minimum caster level of 5 for all custom magic items in games I run, and even at 20,000 gp it is an item worth having.

Glyde
2009-08-18, 01:08 AM
That's Shadow.
The shadow?


Sorry.

Kylarra
2009-08-18, 01:10 AM
The shadow?


Sorry.The Shadow?!

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH:smalleek:
*runs out of the room screaming*

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-18, 01:10 AM
Alright, I've got a good understanding of this now; Bonuses stack (as long as they're not the same type of bonus) and the ones that modify the race's base speed do not.

Also, that 135ft speed was a goal of mine, not something that I had actually accomplished. However, seeing some of these suggestions, I realize now that I need to set my goal higher. =)

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 01:19 AM
Alright, I've got a good understanding of this now; Bonuses stack (as long as they're not the same type of bonus) and the ones that modify the race's base speed do not.

Also, that 135ft speed was a goal of mine, not something that I had actually accomplished. However, seeing some of these suggestions, I realize now that I need to set my goal higher. =)

One of the best tools for any such endeavor is this spell called "Polymorph" (or well, Shapechange if you're higher). I heard Dragons are pretty fast. And one thing to note is that yeah, same types don't stack so you'll have to be careful with some classes and spells. Enhancement-bonuses to speed are fairly common. You can find them in, among others:
-Monk
-Haste
-Expeditious Retreat
-Longstrider
-Scout
-Dervish

just to name a few. Monk has the highest individual bonus, but as that involves taking 20 levels of Monk...yeah, you can do better. All you need is 30' of untyped bonus + haste to match a level 20 Monk's speed.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-18, 01:31 AM
What I've come up with so far is, given overcoming level adjustments and changing alignment at one point:

40 Catfolk
+10 Quick Trait
+10 Barbarian
+10 Berserk
+60 Monk
x150% Shadow Creature Template

195ft speed.

Suggestions on improvements from here? I'd like to stay away from things like grafts, and want to stay out of psionics. Also, I would like it to be a caster-less character, but if there's spells that I just can't go without, by all means I can make it a caster.

I realize alter self would help, providing 20ft more on my base race speed, but in the 4 levels of caster required to get it, monk provides just as much bonus. Please prove me wrong if I am. =P

Curmudgeon
2009-08-18, 02:23 AM
Boots of Striding and Springing use the standard spell effect rules for magic item pricing, thus setting a precedent for any item that increases movement rate.
You're actually making that up. Yes, the +10' speed enhancement cost of the Boots is 2,000 gp, and that happens to be the same as your computed price. But that coincidence doesn't establish any precedent at all, because there's no statement of how that price is determined.

Most enhancement bonuses use a formula of (bonus)2 ∙ constant. This would work out to (speed)2 ∙ 20 gp to match the Boots of Striding and Springing speed enhancement cost. That formula is at least consistent with other enhancement bonuses, and the 18,000 gp cost for +30' is closer to the Boots of Speed item (12,000 gp), which also grants that speed boost. Since you're always supposed to start by comparing other items,
The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item priced in this chapter and use its price as a guide. I can claim that my formula is a better fit to the rules than yours is.

Of course, I'm making this up, too. But as a DM I'd laugh at anybody who started with the spell formula pricing, because that's a clear breach of the RAW.

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 10:08 AM
What I've come up with so far is, given overcoming level adjustments and changing alignment at one point:

40 Catfolk
+10 Quick Trait
+10 Barbarian
+10 Berserk
+60 Monk
x150% Shadow Creature Template

195ft speed.

Suggestions on improvements from here? I'd like to stay away from things like grafts, and want to stay out of psionics. Also, I would like it to be a caster-less character, but if there's spells that I just can't go without, by all means I can make it a caster.

I realize alter self would help, providing 20ft more on my base race speed, but in the 4 levels of caster required to get it, monk provides just as much bonus. Please prove me wrong if I am. =P

Fist of the Forests [CChamp] would add 10' extra. And here's why you want casting:
Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm)
Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm)

White Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#whiteDragon) - you can easily become a Young Adult with Polymorph and an Adult with Shapechange. Either way, your base speed with this will be 200' flight. And that's before you add up stuff like Haste. I'd also like to point out that Phantom Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm), while not changing your speed, gives you the ability to move 240' a turn.

And yeah, Footsteps of the Divine [Complete Champion] can be expended for a ridiculous boost. And Shapechanging into Cheetah (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cheetah.htm) can also be nice if you just want records for how much you move in 1 turn (5 times your normal speed).

Emy
2009-08-18, 01:38 PM
What I've come up with so far is, given overcoming level adjustments and changing alignment at one point:

40 Catfolk
+10 Quick Trait
+10 Barbarian
+10 Berserk
+60 Monk
x150% Shadow Creature Template

195ft speed.

Suggestions on improvements from here? I'd like to stay away from things like grafts, and want to stay out of psionics. Also, I would like it to be a caster-less character, but if there's spells that I just can't go without, by all means I can make it a caster.

I realize alter self would help, providing 20ft more on my base race speed, but in the 4 levels of caster required to get it, monk provides just as much bonus. Please prove me wrong if I am. =P

Any nonlawful
Child of Eberron Dark Shadow Mercury Dragon
Mercury Dragon HD 3/Barbarian 1/Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Berserk 1

Feats of note: Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard), Improved Speed, Air Heritage, Wild Talent, Speed of Thought

200 Mercury Dragon
+30 Cloud Wings (druid 2, hour/level. Extended. Duration 24 hours)
+30 Aerial Alacrity (sorc/wiz 4, persistent. Duration 24 hours.)
+30 Air Heritage
+10 Dark Creature template
+10 Barbarian
+10 Berserk
+10 Quick trait
+10 insight Speed of Thought
+5 Elation (sor/wiz 3, persistent. Duration 24 hours.)
+5 Sky domain power
*1.5 Shadow Creature template

525' Fly (perfect)

This character is probably unplayable though. :(

(This is a flight speed that lasts all day. In the shorter term, you can do truly absurd things with footsteps of the divine.)

edit: whoops, forgot to include a few of the bonuses in my calculation. Also e;fb

Swift Haste could be persisted with a wand or something, but figuring out where the levels for that would come from would be annoying. Or the feats.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-18, 02:25 PM
Haha, yeah I don't really want to play as a dragon. I'm really looking for a character that would be hypothetically playable from level 1 to 20, and that has the running speed in it's natural state. Polymorphs are nice, but not really what I'm looking for. Also, I like to avoid using templates, but that x1.5 from the shadow was irresistible.

Sounds like I need to get Complete Champion, its the only complete book that I lack.

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 02:41 PM
Sounds like I need to get Complete Champion, its the only complete book that I lack.

If you're talking about D&D 3.5e...that's highly unlikely :Smalltongue: I just recently found out that I actually lack a whole settings worth of books (Dragonlance) and I've got a ton (including most of Eberron, Forgotten Realms, a bunch of adventures and basically all of WoTC 3.5 and 3.0, and Hyperconscious and Mindscape).

Kylarra
2009-08-18, 02:55 PM
Well he is specifying Completes, so it is possible for that to be the only one of the Complete series he's missing, rather than the complete series of 3.5 books.

Sliver
2009-08-18, 02:56 PM
Ehh, with double moves that's only 2.3 seconds faster on a 100m dash than Usain Bolt's new world record. 7.29 second 100m at a brisk walk.

It is fantasy. :P

You should compare that record with running, not double moving.. normal (and double) move is just a Hustle, so it is pretty impressive.. But to compare it is running you should, that is 4 times the move speed, 5 with a feat..

Contranym
2009-08-18, 04:19 PM
There is also a feat for Draconic Creatures in Races of the Dragon which boosts your speed..

You may also wish to look at BladeDancer in OA (3.0 though).. at early levels it doubles your base land speed and increases this bonus later on. Find ways of increasing your base land speed and viola :smallwink:

ericgrau
2009-08-18, 07:27 PM
The untyped bonuses should stack with each other, it was probably multiple enhancement bonuses that didn't stack. Bonuses from the same or similar sources also don't stack (even if they're a different type or untyped), but rarely do people even know about this rule. More likely, a DM might have said, "That's pretty much the same as that other thing, so I'm not gonna let them stack. I don't care what the rules say."