PDA

View Full Version : Let's fix Magic Missile



Lysander
2009-08-17, 04:23 PM
It never misses. And it's just so generic. "I shoot it. With magic." Let's make magic missiles more balanced and more flavorful.

Ideas:

It should allow a reflex save to avoid it, but only with Evasion to dodge up to half the missiles or Improved Evasion to dodge them all. The DC rises dramatically with caster level and the number of incoming missiles. The DC would not be a Pass/Fail either. The higher you roll the more missiles you'd dodge, with it being almost impossible to avoid them all if several are aimed at a single person.

Although it still counts as force damage and can hit incorporeal creatures, a caster must give their magic missiles a shape. This shape determines what kind of damage it does, and creatures resistant to that form of damage will take less or no injury. A caster can select what shape the missiles take when they cast it:

Pellets - Round missiles that deal bludgeoning damage.
Darts - Small points that deal piercing damage.
Crescents - Spinning crescent blades that deal slashing damage.

Each missile in a casting can be given a different shape, but no one missile deals more than a single type of damage without diverting additional energy by firing fewer shots. A wizard can give all their missiles two damage types by firing one less missile. Their missiles can have all three damage types by firing two less missiles. These improved missiles are:

Stars - Spiked razor discs that deal slashing and piercing damage.
Flails - Tiny spiked balls that deal bludgeoning and piercing damage.
Blades - Tiny knives or axe heads that deal slashing and bludgeoning damage
Orbs - Constantly shifting spheres of blades and spikes that deal all three kinds of damage.

Even orbs cannot damage something entirely immune to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing.

Appearance
Magic Missiles appear translucent and ghostly, but move so quickly that they can't usually be glimpsed for more than an instant. When they first cast the spell a caster may pick any visible color for their missiles and from then on casts missiles that are either that color or white. It is possible but tricky to cast missiles in a color other than their instinctive hue, at a -1 caster level penalty. A caster can choose whether magic missiles glow or not, never brightly enough to provide illumination but bright enough to be seen in darkness up to 60 feet away.

Strawman
2009-08-17, 04:25 PM
I like it. The only thing that might be annoying in gameplay is determining the exact amount of missiles you dodge with a roll.

Nero24200
2009-08-17, 05:31 PM
Would ranged touch attacks not make things simpiler? It would also remove the "auto-hit" function.

Myou
2009-08-17, 08:56 PM
But... your changes make the spell utterly worthless. o.o

The only point of it is that it's a small amount of guaranteed damage.
I can't see why anyone would ever take or use it now.

Zeta Kai
2009-08-17, 08:59 PM
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with magic missile. Yes, it is one of the only auto-hit attacks in the game, but it does piddly damage, costs a turn, & uses up a spell slot. In contrast, a melee combatant can swing their stick/sword/yo-yo all day long, & statistically, they will hit most things & deal some damage. It'll probably be more than 1d4+1 damage, they can do a full attack action to hit multiple times in the same round, & they can do that all damn day. It's different, but not necessarily better or worse.

I remember when Complete Arcane came out, & everyone skimmed through the warlock entry & ran to their keyboards to howl & declare that "WARLOX R TEH BROKUNZ!! WIZZRDZ FALE!!1!" Later, more measured analysis prevailed, & we all learned that the warlock was a perfectly functional Tier 4 class that couldn't stand up to a competently-run wizard without getting stomped. I think the same skewed view is on display here.

Every time that I read a wizard-cheese thread, I notice the tricks that come up all the time. The gate cheese, the time stop cheese, the mindrape cheese, the celerity cheese, & the wish cheese. I don't see any magic missile cheese, & I think it's because MM just isn't cheesy. I'm sure you could break it, if you tried hard enough, but for less effort, you could break the game with other stuff.

levi
2009-08-17, 10:16 PM
I don't think magic missle needs fixing. It's a good spell, but it's a solid staple and I don't think it's particularly overpowered. It does less damage than non auto-hit spells.

As for flavor, I've always played that characters can make thier magic missles look however they like. They're generally glowing and translucent, but the shape and color can be tweaked to reflect the casters personality, magic style, or whatever.

Besides, magic missle is one of the few force attacks and the only low level one. I think changing that removes a valuable tool in the arcane arsenal.

Lysander
2009-08-17, 11:00 PM
This still is autohit though, unless you're fighting a Rogue or similar. I just dislike the idea of anything that provides no save whatsoever, regardless of who you're attacking.

And requiring that they pick an attack shape doesn't weaken it that much since they don't need to decide until they cast.

Zeta Kai
2009-08-17, 11:38 PM
This still is autohit though, unless you're fighting a Rogue or similar. I just dislike the idea of anything that provides no save whatsoever, regardless of who you're attacking.

And requiring that they pick an attack shape doesn't weaken it that much since they don't need to decide until they cast.

You still nerfed it far beyond your original qualm to the point of uselessness, for no real benefit. It's this kind of fix-what-ain't-broke mentality that has had Paizo re-inventing a broken wheel for the last year. If you wanted to patch the auto hit thing, you could just do this:

Magic Missile
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.

Each missile requires a ranged touch attack to hit. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.

For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile; two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for the touch attack.

No muss, no fuss, barely any difference, & a lot more useful.

TSED
2009-08-18, 02:53 AM
And really, if it requires a touch attack now, would 1d6+1 be broken?

Eloel
2009-08-18, 03:41 AM
And really, if it requires a touch attack now, would 1d6+1 be broken?

With the needed RTA, it's not broken even if you make it auto-maximized. 5 damage/RTA, upto 5 RTAs at L9 for 25 damage. You get 2x Scorching Ray at level7, for 28 average damage...
(now, if you find a way to achieve uber-ness at criticals, like, something better than doubling [something akin to magic-vorpal], Magic Missile goes towards the 'broken' territory with this 'fix'.)

Zeta Kai
2009-08-18, 05:30 AM
And really, if it requires a touch attack now, would 1d6+1 be broken?

My point (one that should be clear by now) is that it never was. Going by the definition of "broken" as meaning "unusable in an actual game", then the only broken version that I see is the one in post #1 of this thread. The OP assumes that an auto-hit magic missile is disruptively powerful (anyone really agree? anyone?), & so he replaced it with some... thing that boils down to caster wastes his turn. The pendulum swung too far the other way.

Frog Dragon
2009-08-18, 05:48 AM
The only situation where the magic missile is particurally powerful is if you manage to get out a crapload of them and that rarely happens with a party of adventurers. Yes, they hurt if you get 6 wizards, even if they're low-level to bomb one guy with them, but that doesn't make an overpowered spell. I think of it as more as a failsafe. Like
I can't hit it with a touch attack. It passed the reflex save vs fireball and pwned my domination spell..... Magic Missile. At least I'll do something now.

Kris Strife
2009-08-18, 07:21 AM
The only situation where the magic missile is particurally powerful is if you manage to get out a crapload of them and that rarely happens with a party of adventurers. Yes, they hurt if you get 6 wizards, even if they're low-level to bomb one guy with them, but that doesn't make an overpowered spell. I think of it as more as a failsafe. Like
I can't hit it with a touch attack. It passed the reflex save vs fireball and pwned my domination spell..... Magic Missile. At least I'll do something now.

Even with Warmage Edge (add Int the the damage of the first, and only the first) its no where near broken, with out applying some serious cheese, ie Pun-Pun, other infinite +Int loops, etc. Now if your dice are trying to kill you, it can be a nice fall back,though I do agree that some more flavor, beyond changing what it looks like, wouldn't hurt.

TSED
2009-08-18, 07:43 AM
My point (one that should be clear by now) is that it never was. Going by the definition of "broken" as meaning "unusable in an actual game", then the only broken version that I see is the one in post #1 of this thread. The OP assumes that an auto-hit magic missile is disruptively powerful (anyone really agree? anyone?), & so he replaced it with some... thing that boils down to caster wastes his turn. The pendulum swung too far the other way.


Oh, I agree there. I just think that making it a RTA nerfs it unnecessarily, give it the standard damage boost or something.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-18, 09:13 AM
Now someone has to fix the darkness.

Cieyrin
2009-08-18, 11:41 AM
I don't think applying a damage type to magic missile even makes sense. As a spell, it ignores DR, anyways, so applying a damage type like that makes little sense. Also costing caster level for Spell Thematics is just kicking sand in the wizard's face. There is no value to doing so other than for flair and taking that kind of Pride is just the first step to a short wizarding career.

The way magic missile currently works makes it balanced with other damage spells that have a save, ranged touch attack or whatever, that generally deal more damage or have more devastating effects associated with a failure to resist their effects. I mean, an elven wizard can do more damage with his longbow at 1st level, magic missile only starts to come into its own when you get more missiles but even then, there are probably better uses for your spell slots. It's silly to try to fix what isn't broken and frankly makes little sense.

Them's my 2 magic missiles. Take as you will.

Ninetail
2009-08-18, 02:39 PM
Yeah, there's no need for a fix. Really, magic missile has only two things going for it in the first place: it's guaranteed, and it's force damage. Of the two, the former is far more important.

Considering that you could easily fill that spell slot with something closer to auto-win, like color spray, sleep, or grease (and that's just from core), removing the auto-hit will only ensure that it isn't taken by anyone who knows how casters really work. The only reason it's taken now is as insurance. If all else fails, you have a reliable source of damage. Puny damage, but reliable. No worries about a missed attack roll or a successful save negating your turn.

If you were to remove auto-hit, and you wanted to keep the spell viable, you'd need to add something significant to compensate. Maybe a save-or-X effect, maybe a good chunk of extra damage.

Stompy
2009-08-18, 07:49 PM
It never misses. And it's just so generic. "I shoot it. With magic." Let's make magic missiles more balanced and more flavorful.


Let's not fix magic missile. I feel that is it pretty flavorful as it is. It's a 1st-level spell, does pretty bad damage (comparatively), and the fact that it's generic makes it perfect for a beginning mage to learn.


Ideas: It should allow a reflex save...

Maybe. The problem is that you're taking the simplest spell in the game and giving it confusing and long text. Some people are turned off by this; I remember my early days of DnD, where I would avoid polymorph like the plague because the rules for it were enormous. (I know better now.)

If you want to make it a reflex save, just make each target roll a reflex save for half damage, and pump up the missile damage to (d6+1)s, like everyone else has been suggesting.


Magic missile shapes and damage types.

This block is mostly irrelevant as far a crunchy goes, few things have resistance to weapon type, and even if they do, most wizards will know what they are resistant against.


Less missiles for more damage types.

Cute idea, but now you're limiting my little damage even further. If it gets to the point where I'm using this spell to no effect (due to weapon type resistance), I will either switch the next magic missile's type, or cast a spell that deals potentially more damage (orb of X series).


Appearance

Penalizing a change in appearance and color of the magic missiles will only serve to make them further generic.

This is my best idea of what you would want magic missile to be, more colorful and dodgeable. (I threw out the weapon type because that's too confusing.)


Lysander's Firework Missiles
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex Half
Spell Resistance: Yes

A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d6+1 points of force damage, with a reflex save for half.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.

For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.

You may designate what the color and general shape (i.e. ninja stars, arrows, birds) of each missile is when you cast this spell. (This choice does not alter the spell's damage or save.) The flexibility of the appearance has led some mages use this spell to host a fireworks show.


In short, in the times I've played an arcane type, I've cast magic missile a few times, but it was never a game-breaking spell for me.

Myou
2009-08-19, 12:54 AM
Let's all post our own ideas. ^^

Force Missile
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One missile of force per 3 levels.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Reflex partial (See text)
Spell Resistance: No


A missile of force darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4 points of force damage.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are also damaged by the spell if targeted.

If an attended object is targeted, the creature may choose to make a reflex save to take the damage itself instead.

For every three caster levels you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 6th, four at 9th, and the maximum of five missiles at 12th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single target or several targets. A single missile can strike only one target. You must designate targets before you roll damage.

Missiles can be freely shaped, and mages may choose to model them after specific real weapons, or even give them more abstract, artistic forms. Missiles often glow faintly in a colour of the caster's selection, but this again is a point of personal preference.

Cieyrin
2009-08-19, 09:57 AM
I'm sorry, Myou, but your version seems rather worse than standard. Longer range is all well and good but they do less damage now than they did before and you have to wait even longer to get new missiles, which isn't a good thing in my book for wanting to take it at all.

Jergmo
2009-08-19, 10:13 AM
That reminds me, does anyone know what book the spell Force Missiles is in? The higher level version that has splash damage? :smallconfused:

Hyooz
2009-08-19, 10:18 AM
That reminds me, does anyone know what book the spell Force Missiles is in? The higher level version that has splash damage? :smallconfused:

I want to say the Spell Compendium. If not, check CA or CM.

Force Missile Mage is the only way to make Magic Missile anything more than an ok first level spell. The whole idea of Magic Missile needing to be fixed is kind of ridiculous.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-19, 10:18 AM
That reminds me, does anyone know what book the spell Force Missiles is in? The higher level version that has splash damage? :smallconfused:

Should be Spell Compendium.

Jergmo
2009-08-19, 10:24 AM
Thanks muchly.

Myou
2009-08-19, 11:45 AM
I'm sorry, Myou, but your version seems rather worse than standard. Longer range is all well and good but they do less damage now than they did before and you have to wait even longer to get new missiles, which isn't a good thing in my book for wanting to take it at all.

Yeah, you're right, it is too low, that was silly of me.

Force Missile
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One missile of force per 3 levels.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Reflex partial (See text)
Spell Resistance: No


A missile of force darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d6 points of force damage.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are also damaged by the spell if targeted.

If an attended object is targeted, the creature may choose to make a reflex save to take the damage itself instead.

For every three caster levels you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 6th, four at 9th, and the maximum of five missiles at 12th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single target or several targets. A single missile can strike only one target. You must designate targets before you roll damage.

Missiles can be freely shaped, and mages may choose to model them after specific real weapons, or even give them more abstract, artistic forms. Missiles often glow faintly in a colour of the caster's selection, but this again is a point of personal preference.