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shadow_archmagi
2009-08-17, 10:49 PM
So, I recently played my second session of Shadowrun. My DM suggested that I go wizard, since the group lacked a magical dude.

I had a friend do MOST of the numbers on my character sheet for me. Nothing particularly unusual or odd. "Willpower and Charisma are useful to you, so I'll set them at 5 each with magic at 6"

I got four ranks in almost every spellcasting skill, as well as a few in pistols with a specialization in revolvers. I took Gremlins 4 to gain more points.

I picked my own spells (Mass Confusion, Control Emotion, Ice Sheet, Ignite, Magic Fingers, Turn To Goo, Levitate, Influence).

Since then I've been extremely effective. You might even say I've been the most useful member of the group. Of course, other members in the group (particularly the face) might disagree, but you could still argue about it for a bit without any trouble.

Basically

1. Turn To Goo = Knock one enemy unconscious. Perfect for taking prisoners or nicking cybernetics!

2. Influence = You're going to do one thing I say! Why yes, Mr. Bouncer, I bet you SHOULD take pity on the next six people to ask for entrance and let them in just because.

3. Emotion Control = Love the face. Worship the face. The face can never have too many diplomacy dice.

4. Magic Fingers = I'm sorry but any items left unattended, good sir, may very well fly off the counter and away. Also, my gun can join in the fight while I say here.

5. Ice Sheet = YOUR CAR CRASHES AND YOUR MINIONS FALL DOWN

6. Summoning = YOU WILL BE KILL BY DEMON


Note that technically I should've been rolling two more dice than I was since I forgot my mentor spirit gives a manipulation bonus, which all my spells but confusion are. (I didn't intend it to happen this way, all the coolest ones just happened to be manipulation).

So what the heck? Am I accidentally munchkining? Is shadowrun imbalanced? Does it have something to do with our group's general ability to zip past most combats without shooting anyone? Am I missing some sort of drastic rule that balances magic out?

On the note of things balancing magic, Drain doesn't seem very nasty. Chr+Wil is, in my case, 10 dice to roll, which means on average I'm taking 3 drain less than I would. Since most spells offer something like "Force divided by two" (give or take one or two) as their drain, casting at force 6 means that it's QUITE probable I'll only take one Drain. Since I get 11 Stun, that means that I can cast as many as 10 spells at full power before needing a nap.

OverdrivePrime
2009-08-17, 11:36 PM
Casting is indeed powerful in shadowrun, but don't forget that as you accrue stun damage, your spellcasting dice suffer a negative modifier, just like if you had gotten physical wounds. If you've got 9 stun damage, you're at -3 to all actions, including spell casting.

PapaNachos
2009-08-18, 01:08 AM
Hey, I'm the face in that party and also the person that helped build his character.

Part of the problem is that none of us are completely sure how the mechanics work. For instance, none of us have been using the penalties for health or stun damage. Also, your tradition dictates what kind of spirits you can summon and what kind of spells you should have. As far as the spirit goes, I think you need to offer some sort of payment for its services.

We've also been relatively lucky as far as NPC rolls go, but I'm betting the DM will adapt a bit more to our play style.

Doc Roc
2009-08-18, 01:38 AM
Wound penalties are a pretty crucial factor in the balancing mechanism of Drain and similar effects. I would sit down and carefully review the mechanics in play. 4th IS breakable, less so than 3rd, but in general, with some TLC, you can legitimately fix most problems as a GM.

Remember, Never deal with dragons! Good luck!

Swordguy
2009-08-18, 02:08 AM
You don't have an initiative enhancer - that means you're getting one action per round. Most street sams or any sort of runner above the 'street punk" level (to say nothing of the elite corp guards that are most often encountered right outside the area you need to break into) are going to have Wired Reflexes or the Bioware equivalent, which means they get two actions per round.

Thus, an equal number of NPCs will get twice as many actions per round as your party, with the added bonus of usually going first. I'm guessing you haven't yet been in a firefight against similarly-equipped adversaries. If you're representative of your party, the enemy simply has half of their squad bunker down on round 1 while the other half hits your party with suppressive fire, meaning that to get LOS to them to use your own guns and spells you run a serious risk of getting chopped down. The other half use their first action to flank your position under cover (meaning no LOS to them), and their second action that round to pop out of cover and hit you with enfilade fire. Boom, dead runners.

As in many games, quantity of actions are king in SR. You aren't that powerful, you mostly likely haven't engaged enemies of equal or greater capabilities yet. And that's OK - the best shadowruns are where you don't shoot at all; it's a stealth-based game, after all. What's more, runners generally try to engage enemies on unfair terms (with surprise, at night, with overwhelming firepower, etc), so it shouldn't be a challenge at that point, because the challenge was really in setting up the fight to be unfair in your favor in the first place.

When engaging inferior enemies who don't utilize cover (breaking LOS, which magic requires), don't utilize suppressive fire (making it suicidal for you to achieve LOS), and don't utilize their own mages to counter your spells or provide protection (which forces you to cast at a high Force and risk Drain), and don't have equipment equal to that of your party, then yes, mages are quite powerful. As they should be. I suspect, though, that you have a GM somewhat new to SR who hasn't really thought through how combat should work (or hasn't wanted to throw nasty encounters at you yet). In short, you've been kicking ass and taking names. That's great, kid. Don't get cocky. :smallbiggrin:

Ziren
2009-08-18, 03:42 AM
You don't have an initiative enhancer - that means you're getting one action per round. Most street sams or any sort of runner above the 'street punk" level (to say nothing of the elite corp guards that are most often encountered right outside the area you need to break into) are going to have Wired Reflexes or the Bioware equivalent, which means they get two actions per round.[/QOUTE]

Actually "Astral Projection" gives you three actions per round. And it comes for free with the mage package.


[QUOTE]When engaging inferior enemies who don't utilize cover (breaking LOS, which magic requires), don't utilize suppressive fire (making it suicidal for you to achieve LOS)

Both are easily countered by Astral Projection.


@OP:
Your mage isn't all that broken. The real gamebreaking spells of SR4 is mob-consciousness (or whatever is the English name for the spell that allows you to follow your orders without question) and manalightning/ball. I had to turn those spells down a lot, since any encounter that would be a challenge for the unnerfed mage of my player group, would wipe the floor with the rest of the party.

Swordguy
2009-08-18, 04:54 AM
Actually "Astral Projection" gives you three actions per round. And it comes for free with the mage package.
...
Both are easily countered by Astral Projection.


When you're astral they are.

That's the key - and remember, you can't target mundane targets without an astral form with magic while astrally projecting (SR4, pg 173, Choosing Targets). So your 3 actions a round don't mean much, since the vast majority of targets don't have an astral form. Plus you open yourself up to a whole host of nasty astral stuff and astral-only defenses (using the MMORPG term, it's easy to pick up "adds" to an encounter when you go astral that never would have noticed you if you'd stayed mundane). Plus there's the whole "your actual body is in a coma, and if moved, you can't find your way back" thing. Oh, and it's difficult to communicate with mundanes while astral, thus actually warning your buddies about the impending flank attack may prove difficult. In fact, you can't actually interact with the real world save for Awakened beings and via casting some spells (you can't use Physical spells at all while Astral). Oh, and the best part? If a baddie DOES find your meat body while you're in combat, it's gonna be an auto-kill. Press muzzle to forehead, smile, wait for flash.

In my experience (which, as an official Catalyst Games Demo Agent, is extensive, may I add), the vast majority of long-lived mages use astral projection for reconnaissance or when dealing with Awakened threats only. The short-lived ones, however, use it liberally. Take from that what you will.

It only takes one unfortunate grenade to blow up that car your meat body is sheltering behind. No dodge roll for you. You've got a couple hours until your astral form fades, then roll a new PC. Astral Projection, while incredibly useful at times, it not a "win button".


Generally speaking, the minimum well-rounded spell list for the average SR mage includes:

Sterilize - remove any DNA traces you were there
A single-target combat spell
An AOE combat spell
A stun-damage spell (may be either of the above)
A physical-damage spell (may be either of the above)
A reflex enhancer for the vast majority of the time you're mundane instead of astral
Utility spells to taste, depending on the mage's personality and specialty (a B&E mage, for example, might have a spell that messes up surveillance equipment)
An Mana-based defense spell is also quite useful to stack onto your physical armor.

.................................................. .......

For the OP, think about if you've been using these rules:

1) In practice, on a run a mage will often be sustaining several spells at once (Reflex enhancer, any necessary Utility spells like Invisibility, Mana-based defense spell if the target is know to employ mages), and each sustained spell is a -2 dice penalty on all other tests. Not all other spellcasting tests, all other tests. (SR4, pg 174)

2) You can avoid the above penalties by using sustaining foci, but the Force of the spell will be limited to the rating of the foci (which are pretty pricey). The lower the rating, the easier it is for a hostile mage to dispel or counter your spell.

3) Why cast at a high Force (thus risking Drain)? Aside from the fact that the Force of the spell is what sets the Base Damage Value (thus, more Force = more damage), you're limited in the number of hits on a spell equal to that of the Force rating. (SR4 pg 171) Cast a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits? Great - except you just lost two of them, because only the first 3 count due to the Force the spell was cast at. Hope you didn't need those hits to bring down that charging Troll.

4) Visibility modifiers apply to spellcasting. (SR4 pg 173) So very many people forget this - Shadowruns mainly happen at night, remember.

5) Your GM hasn't used Defense Mages, has he? A mage declaring he's keeping a number of people under his protection adds his Counterspelling dice to their Resistance Tests against your casting. On average, I've found that'll drop at least 2-3 hits off of whatever you get on its own, not counting the actual target's resistance. MegaCorps, especially Yamatetsu, Sader-Krupp, and Aztechnology, are quite fond of these guys, as is Lone Star.

Don't get me wrong, mages can be crazy powerful, but it sounds a lot like you guys aren't using the stuff in the game world and system that keeps them in check. If the mage just casts spells willy-nilly on random people to make them do what he wants, then sure, he'll succeed almost all the time. But casting magic isn't invisible - people do get a test to see if you're casting (pg 168) and casting on someone without their permission is both considered assault and is illegal. That bar owner you just charmed may like you, but his bouncer may have noticed and called Lone Star. Further, simply by being a mage, you've made yourself Target Number One in any given firefight. There are two primary motto's in Shadowrun: "Never deal with a Dragon", and "Geek the mage first". Guess which one applies here. :smallamused:

Ziren
2009-08-18, 05:29 AM
When you're astral they are.

That's the key - and remember, you can't target mundane targets without an astral form with magic while astrally projecting (SR4, pg 173, Choosing Targets). So your 3 actions a round don't mean much, since the vast majority of targets don't have an astral form.


Okay, it's true. It doesn't make sense when you look at the fluff and is hidden in a part of the book that doesn't deal with astral projection otherwise, but you are still correct. Thanks for the information, though my groups mage probably won't be too happy about this :smallamused:

Swordguy
2009-08-18, 05:38 AM
Okay, it's true. It doesn't make sense when you look at the fluff and is hidden in a part of the book that doesn't deal with astral projection otherwise, but you are still correct. Thanks for the information, though my groups mage probably won't be too happy about this :smallamused:

Heh, no problem. To be fair, he CAN Manifest for a Simple Action and be visible and audible (so he can warn the runner about aforementioned flankers), but he still can't physically affect or be affected by the real world and he still can't target non-Awakened beings with spells.

The really funny part about all this? IIRC, you used to be able to target mundane creatures with Mana-based spells while Astrally manifesting...but ANY spell cast while Astrally Projecting did Physical Drain, not Stun, and I think the Force was increased solely for the purposes of Drain (like a Force 6 spell is actually Drain resisted as a Force 8 spell or some such). Quite nasty. Now, all casting is just Stun damage unless you cast a spell with Force greater than your Magic attribute. So if your player gives you a hard time about "getting nerfed", point this out and mention you could always be playing an older edition... :smallbiggrin:

shadow_archmagi
2009-08-18, 06:32 AM
Ah. It's just as I suspected. The three-way combo of noobish overpoweredness.

1. We forgot the rule(s) that apply penalties and dangers

2. Our DM isn't using many anti-magic enemies

3. Our DM doesn't know the tactics that help mundanes against magic

4. By coincidence, every situation we've encountered is one I can be useful in.


Luckily for me, the campaign isn't going to go on much longer so I won't have to worry about the possibility where the DM slowly learns everything he can possibly do to screw mages and uses it liberally for fear of me ever dominating a session again.

Doc Roc
2009-08-18, 07:50 AM
Okay, it's true. It doesn't make sense when you look at the fluff and is hidden in a part of the book that doesn't deal with astral projection otherwise, but you are still correct. Thanks for the information, though my groups mage probably won't be too happy about this :smallamused:

Played shadowrun since early third edition. Makes perfect sense to lil' old me, and fits with clean precision into the fluff, at least in the english version. It's worked this way as long as I can remember, so maybe there are discrepencies?

Man, I miss the old Physical Drain days.... :)

comicshorse
2009-08-18, 10:12 AM
Our group often found mages and shamans overpowered we solved this by simply removing the divide by two from the Drain of all spells. Everybody felt this gave a more balanced game

John Campbell
2009-08-18, 12:10 PM
The really funny part about all this? IIRC, you used to be able to target mundane creatures with Mana-based spells while Astrally manifesting...but ANY spell cast while Astrally Projecting did Physical Drain, not Stun, and I think the Force was increased solely for the purposes of Drain (like a Force 6 spell is actually Drain resisted as a Force 8 spell or some such). Quite nasty. Now, all casting is just Stun damage unless you cast a spell with Force greater than your Magic attribute. So if your player gives you a hard time about "getting nerfed", point this out and mention you could always be playing an older edition... :smallbiggrin:

It was more complicated than that. The astral/physical separation has been there since the beginning... astral can affect astral but not physical, and vice versa. Dual-natured targets - like astrally perceiving (not projecting, which are purely astral) mages or adepts, foci, some metacritters, and so on - could interact with either. That hasn't changed through at least SR3, and I think SR4.

Where it got complicated was... in SR2, they added the ability to "ground out" a spell through a dual-natured target. This meant that a purely astral caster - like a projecting mage - could cast a physical spell from the astral, targeting a dual-natured target, and the spell would be grounded to the physical plane by the target and take effect on the physical plane, hitting purely physical targets normally.

This was obviously horribly broken, led to all sorts of ridiculous abuses, and was removed from SR3 for good reason.

They've changed how spells interact with the astral plane several times, too.