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Glyde
2009-08-19, 01:50 PM
Qquiiick question, and the wotc boards are down so I can't check the "list of stuff" thread.

Is there a way to get Feint to a free action? I remember hearing about it a long time ago, but never had a use for it at the time so I didn't lock it away.


Thanks

PId6
2009-08-19, 01:52 PM
Invisible Blade can do it, but I think it was errata'd once per round or something.

Glyde
2009-08-19, 02:07 PM
How far in is that ability? Is it just a single dip? The character finds herself in single combat more than she should be, so being able to get off as many death attack attempts possible is a big plus (Dual wielding rogue/swordsage/assassin right now)

Are there any other methods?

PId6
2009-08-19, 02:12 PM
It takes all 5 levels to do it, so no quick dip there. I don't know of any other methods.

Fishy
2009-08-19, 02:25 PM
A level 6 Beguiler with the Improved Feint feat can feint as a swift action. But since beguilers shouldn't really be in melee and 6 levels is an awful lot for a dip, that's not too helpful.

Jack Zander
2009-08-19, 02:32 PM
I've seen a third party book publish a feat called Advanced Feint (I think). It was exactly what you described.

But being a third party source, they didn't give it foresight to only let you try once per round, so technically you could keep feinting until you succeeded.

I personally don't find it too overpowering if you put that limititation on it. Try to work something out with your DM.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-19, 02:44 PM
Two PrCs give it to you, but both are limited to 1d4 rounds. Scarlet Corsair in Stormwrack is the only one I can remember the name for.

If it is just for Sneak Attack instead of lowering their AC, the Swordsage can get a stance that allows for nearly perpetual flanking if an ally is adjacent to your target.

Gorbash
2009-08-19, 03:14 PM
That 1/round limit is a nice thing to have. My DM ruled that the party Rogue/Invisible blade can feint for a total of 4 times (don't ask). It's really bothersome to make opposed checks before every attack.

Guancyto
2009-08-19, 03:24 PM
Clarion Commander lets you declare an enemy flanked for a full minute with a DC 20 Intimidate check, as I recall. It takes White Raven maneuvers so you'd need to pick up some Warblade or Crusader levels, though.

Faulty
2009-08-19, 04:00 PM
Only one level of Warblade is necessary.

PId6
2009-08-19, 04:13 PM
And dipping martial adept levels is never a bad thing (for anyone except full casters, that is).

Person_Man
2009-08-19, 04:37 PM
You need one of the following:

Take 5 levels of Invisible Blade, which lets you Feint as a Free Action.

Take 5 levels of the errata'd Invisible Blade, which lets you Feint as a Free Action once per turn. The Surprising Riposte feat from Drow of the Underdark, which makes your enemy Flat Footed for one round if you successfully Feint and deal damage against them. (This also qualifies you for Iajutsu Focus, if you feel like abusing it).

Take 10 levels of the unedited Invisible Blade (http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_invisible_blade.htm) from the original author.

Find a way to get more actions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). I suggest a Helm of the Evader for Hustle.

Ignore Feint because it's a lousy rules mechanic, and use some other way to qualify for sneak attack, like this:

Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915). Feat index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats).

The four most important Sneak Attack feats:

Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage). Also adds +1d6 damage, which is nifty.

Staggering Strike: Enemy must Save (DC = damage) or be staggered for 1 round when you Sneak Attack them with a melee attack. Ridiculously useful against boss enemies, in that it prevents them from making a full attack or casting a full round action spells.

Craven: +1 damage per character level on every Sneak Attack. The equivalent of Power Attack without reducing your To-Hit bonus.

Darkstalker: Enemies with Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsight, etc, must still make a Spot check in order to locate you when you Hide.


Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) or Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) (remember that you can still Charge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charge) if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5876523&postcount=16) of magic items to do just that.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

9) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

10) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

11) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

12) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

13) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

14) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

15) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

16) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

17) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

18) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23) of ways to deal Dex damage.

20) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

21) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

22) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of manuevers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

Myrmex
2009-08-19, 04:41 PM
How can you make multiple death attacks/round, outside of the first round? Once the opponent is aware of you, you can't make them.

Unless you're using HiPS I guess.

Glyde
2009-08-19, 06:36 PM
How can you make multiple death attacks/round, outside of the first round? Once the opponent is aware of you, you can't make them.

Unless you're using HiPS I guess.

Every instance of sneak attack carries the death attack, not just the first. After studying, the death attack can be applied up to three rounds later. The tactic was going to be study, then feint and full attack in the first round to maximize the window.

There's an assassin spell in Spell Compendium (I think) that lets you feint as a swift action with a +10 bonus, but as I said I was looking for free so it could be a full attack right afterward. A lot of the teamwork things (Flanking, having someone grapple them) are irrelevant because as I said, the character finds herself fighting on her own quite a bit (She's a changeling assassin. Guards catch her, she needs to be able to hold her own. One level of swordsage makes escaping easier, for sure.)

Anywho, thanks for your help everybody. I'll take a look at that third party feat and run it by the DM. If he doesn't approve, I'll stick to feinting the turn before then full-attacking the next.

olentu
2009-08-19, 06:51 PM
Every instance of sneak attack carries the death attack, not just the first. After studying, the death attack can be applied up to three rounds later. The tactic was going to be study, then feint and full attack in the first round to maximize the window.

There's an assassin spell in Spell Compendium (I think) that lets you feint as a swift action with a +10 bonus, but as I said I was looking for free so it could be a full attack right afterward. A lot of the teamwork things (Flanking, having someone grapple them) are irrelevant because as I said, the character finds herself fighting on her own quite a bit (She's a changeling assassin. Guards catch her, she needs to be able to hold her own. One level of swordsage makes escaping easier, for sure.)

Anywho, thanks for your help everybody. I'll take a look at that third party feat and run it by the DM. If he doesn't approve, I'll stick to feinting the turn before then full-attacking the next.

If I am remembering correctly once the death attack is attempted if the target saves the attack is wasted and another 3 rounds of study are needed. But it might be that the concern is just getting off one successful sneak attack.

Glyde
2009-08-19, 06:55 PM
As far as I know, since all the attacks are taken in the same action, death attack is applied to both regardless if the target saves one or not.

However, the rules aren't clear on that - So it's up to the DM, I guess.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-19, 06:57 PM
Swift actions don't prevent full attacks.

Glyde
2009-08-19, 06:58 PM
Swift actions don't prevent full attacks.

Well I'll be damned, you're right. I misread the entry completely.

What would we do without you?

Fax Celestis
2009-08-19, 06:59 PM
What would we do without you?

You know, I often wonder that myself. :smallbiggrin:

Myrmex
2009-08-19, 07:09 PM
As far as I know, since all the attacks are taken in the same action, death attack is applied to both regardless if the target saves one or not.

However, the rules aren't clear on that - So it's up to the DM, I guess.

The rules are pretty clear:


Death Attack

If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassinís choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassinís class level + the assassinís Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victimís saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.

If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.

olentu
2009-08-19, 07:11 PM
As far as I know, since all the attacks are taken in the same action, death attack is applied to both regardless if the target saves one or not.

However, the rules aren't clear on that - So it's up to the DM, I guess.

After reviewing the rules they seem to be quite clear to me. One can use a death attack after studying when one deals damage with a melee sneak attack. The target must then save or die/be paralyzed. If the save is successful then another 3 rounds of study are needed. So after the first save which would probably be after the first successful melee sneak attack (unless there is some reason why one would not want to use the death attack) the death attack is either successful or is expended.

Glyde
2009-08-19, 07:18 PM
It still doesn't say that you can't attempt two death attacks at the same time, which is what a full-attack with two weapons would be. As I said, it's gray, and the DM would have to make a verdict

olentu
2009-08-19, 07:23 PM
It still doesn't say that you can't attempt two death attacks at the same time, which is what a full-attack with two weapons would be. As I said, it's gray, and the DM would have to make a verdict

The PHB regarding full attacks says that

"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high
enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to
lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either
weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with
either part of the weapon first."

So it would seem that in a full attack the attacks are not simultaneous and so one could not make two death attacks at the same time.

Myrmex
2009-08-19, 07:25 PM
Even if you can't get a death attack on every swing of a full attack, being able to get sneak attacks on every swing is certainly worthwhile. Imp. Invisibility may be worth looking into.


The PHB regarding full attacks says that

"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high
enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to
lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either
weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with
either part of the weapon first."

So it would seem that in a full attack the attacks are not simultaneous and so one could not make two death attacks at the same time.

Well, I think you could make multiple death attacks simultaneously, but you would need the Twin Spell metamagic feat and the Whirling Blade spell.

Haven
2009-08-19, 07:28 PM
Two PrCs give it to you, but both are limited to 1d4 rounds. Scarlet Corsair in Stormwrack is the only one I can remember the name for.

If it is just for Sneak Attack instead of lowering their AC, the Swordsage can get a stance that allows for nearly perpetual flanking if an ally is adjacent to your target.

Yeah, there are a lot of Shadow Hand maneuvers and stances that should let you use your Death Attack. I know there's one that lets you keep your Hide and Move Silently rolls even after you make an attack.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-19, 07:31 PM
Probably best way to rule it is that Death Attack applies only once per attack action, regardless of how many attacks you get.

olentu
2009-08-19, 07:31 PM
Even if you can't get a death attack on every swing of a full attack, being able to get sneak attacks on every swing is certainly worthwhile. Imp. Invisibility may be worth looking into.



Well, I think you could make multiple death attacks simultaneously, but you would need the Twin Spell metamagic feat and the Whirling Blade spell.

It may be possible but I would need to read the feat. In any case this discussion at least for me is in response to trying to get multiple death attacks out a full attack even if the target saves and I was taking the usage of a full attack as assumed.

Glyde
2009-08-19, 08:04 PM
Probably best way to rule it is that Death Attack applies only once per attack action, regardless of how many attacks you get.

Aye. That's the ruling that my DM and I just agreed on.