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TheCountAlucard
2009-08-21, 05:38 AM
This is sort of a continuation of my "Considering Shadowrun" thread. For those of you who don't feel like looking for the old thread, here's a brief summary...

Basically, my Friday D&D group has expressed interest in playing Shadowrun. Unfortunately, I'm the only one in my group with any experience in it. In fact, with the exception of a player who's done some SWSE, my group is unfamiliar with any game other than D&D. I'm also the only one in my group with any experience in GMing (although I haven't ran Shadowrun - just played in it).

With that in mind, it looks like I'm going to be GMing for Shadowrun if we play. They already went ahead and made characters; one is playing an Orc Street Samurai (playing up a "catgirl" theme), one is a Dwarven Technomancer, and the third is a Rigger of some sort.

Let me make another thing clear: I haven't read the entire core book yet - I've still yet to read anything on either magic or the Matrix. The only time I played, I was a new addition to the group, and sort of jumped in with a face-type character. The game lasted for about four sessions after that, culminating in our characters stealing a prototype jet.

In D&D, the players usually hover around the "Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral" mindset, and I do a fair bit of improvising and character-based plots. I don't really know how well that'd work out in Shadowrun.

I'm not really sure of what to do for this first session... does anyone have any advice?

Timeras
2009-08-21, 06:13 AM
I would start a first run with something simple so the players learn what SR is about. Perhaps they are hired to steal something from a corporate facility.
This wouldn't require much preparation from the GM and everyone (including you) gets a feeling for the rules. All you need is the plans for the facility and a decision how much info they can get from Johnson or connections about security (and how accurate the info is).

I would let them face complications (like Johnson betraying the runners) in the second run.

toturi
2009-08-21, 07:47 AM
Run an introductory game to get used to the game mechanics first. Unless you are familiar with the rules, expect your grunts to die fast, far faster than you would in D & D. It should not be unexpected.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-21, 08:04 AM
I was thinking about something with a Mr. Johnson hiring the party to do some B&E, steal some files from a company. They'd need to take physical files as well as computer data... something like that.

That was my thoughts, anyway - not entirely concrete yet, clearly.

Cristo Meyers
2009-08-21, 08:08 AM
I was thinking about something with a Mr. Johnson hiring the party to do some B&E, steal some files from a company. They'd need to take physical files as well as computer data... something like that.

That was my thoughts, anyway - not entirely concrete yet, clearly.

In other words, the Shadowrun equivalent of a Dungeon Crawl.

Always a good idea to start with the simple stuff. Expect them to mow through just about anything you throw at them pretty easily unless they screw up big time and get Lone Star waiting for them.

Swordguy
2009-08-21, 11:49 AM
One of the tricks I've picked up is to play the group's 1st game of Shadowrun as a "free" learning experience. Tell your group that they should play it just like D&D. Play your NPC very smart (suppressive fire, flanking, liberal use of grenades to flush out runners, call for magically-supported backup, etc) and let the logical consequences happen (which, if it's not a TPK, then very close to one), and then "reset" the PCs and let them do the mission again. It will teach them that they can't usually rely on things like overwhelming firepower or hack n slash gameplay - they have to be smart and sneaky. Be up front about it, let them know that deaths in this adventure don't count, and then brutally seize on their misteps and smash them.

While certain player types may be slightly irritated at "wasting" a session, I've found that most will appreciate it. They'll see what was effective on the bad guys side and make a note of it for the future. They'll see that playing SR like you're a hero with plot armor (or lots of HPs) gets you very dead, very quickly. Importantly, they'll hopefully see that they need to be sneaky, and most of all, smart, to be successful. SR is very up-front about being a game that will test the player's ability to make plans and contingencies, and if the player is dumb the character will die. A lot. Running a game like this means there's no illusions on the part of the players, which will help gameplay down the road.

Jack_Banzai
2009-08-21, 11:52 AM
I would let them face complications (like Johnson betraying the runners) in the second run.

I would wait for the inevitable Johnson betrayal for the third or fourth. Sure it happens, but that is pretty cliched unfortunately.

A complication in the second run is a good idea but make it a relatively minor one. Something like, the van they were supposed to hijack took a different route than was projected, and they have to play catch up. Or the corp's security schedule was changed due to a tip off or mere coincidence, and the shift change they were relying on just ain't happening. Like that.

Another_Poet
2009-08-21, 02:36 PM
I would do what a friend of mine did in your situation.

Have the first game be a "Shadow Punks" game. By that I mean you start off as street thugs in a bad neighbourhood. You decide to start your own game and try to make money so you can become Shadowrunners like in he movies (or whatever, leave the motivation up to the PCs).

If anyone has any cyberware, it's amazing. Maybe one person has an infrared eye or ampified hearing or something. But no one has bone lacing, smartlinks, wired reflexes, etc etc etc.

The characters don't even have guns. They use classig street weapons like a baseball bat and a cheap stainless steel katana.

Their jobs are things like robbing a convenience store, shaking down some other tough guys in the neighbourhood, etc. As they earn money they can get some guns or some actual cyberware. If if they have a mage with them it is a Big Deal even though (s)he only knows how to do a few simple things.

It's a good way to start off and learn the rules slowly as you go.

ap

kjones
2009-08-21, 03:07 PM
If you don't want to come up with your own mission, I've been using some of these (http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/downloads/) - despite being set in Denver (which has factionalized weirdness) they're pretty good. Even if you do want to write your own mission, it's worth taking a look to get a sense of mission structure. (And a lot of them have handouts, like maps and photos and such, which is a plus.)

comicshorse
2009-08-21, 05:49 PM
With that in mind, it looks like I'm going to be GMing for Shadowrun if we play. They already went ahead and made characters; one is playing an Orc Street Samurai (playing up a "catgirl" theme), one is a Dwarven Technomancer, and the third is a Rigger of some sort.


Read the section on magic, realize how screwed your P.C.s are without it, create a NPC Mage:smallsmile:

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-23, 12:55 AM
Well, we ran a brief game tonight (only three hours :smalltongue:), just to get them acquainted with the rules. The players all used the "sample characters" from the core book; they played the Technomancer, the Sprawl Ganger, the Covert Ops Specialist, and the Weapon Specialist. I ran them through the "Food Fight" mission; essentially, the PCs are at the Stuffer Shack, combatting a wicked case of the munchies, when suddenly the front of the store blows up and goons with guns walk in.

A firefight ensues; the Technomancer hacks the store, using the cleaning drone to try and trip the baddies up a bit while the Weapon Specialist and the Sprawl Ganger spatter the uglier of the two goons with ravioli and bullets.

The players found themselves a little tripped up themselves, having to roll initiative every combat turn, but all in all, they had some fun. Especially when the Technomancer hacked the cash register, and then wiped his datatrail clean without my having reminded him.

I told the PCs to make and use their own characters for the next time we play (if there IS a next time).

On that note, if we play this again, we're gonna need some more d6's... :smalleek:


Read the section on magic, realize how screwed your P.C.s are without it, create a NPC Mage.

After the session, I talked with a friend of mine about his previous Shadowrun experience, and when I mentioned that the group didn't have a mage, he started laughing and talking about how tough it would be for them.

comicshorse
2009-08-23, 07:33 AM
Seriously read the rules on magic and Astral space in particular. If these are going to be part of your game ( after all you don't have to use all the rules) then the P.C.s need someone on their team who can access it. It's impossible to successfully do ANY sort of covert mission when there can be a Mage floating along besides you in Astral observing everything you do and you have NO way of telling. ( and that's before we get to the magical fire-power, fanatastic healing and all the other tricks Mages can do)
Magic is a huge part of Shadowrun and Runners who don't have it our pretty much doomed

Narmoth
2009-08-23, 07:39 AM
Premade, free missions on the internet is your friend when starting shadowrun. Just google around

kjones
2009-08-23, 07:40 AM
It's not impossible to have a team without a mage - but it makes it very, very difficult to counter enemy magic. There's not much you can do to damage enemy spirits, for example.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-23, 09:05 AM
Seriously read the rules on magic and Astral space in particular.I fully intend to.


It's not impossible to have a team without a mage - but it makes it very, very difficult to counter enemy magic. There's not much you can do to damage enemy spirits, for example.That was the jist of what the friend told me. He had mentioned the party having to frequently run away, because they were unable to damage summoned spirits. Humorously enough, though, one of the party members had a bow that would damage said spirits and didn't realize it until they were cornered. He spent an edge, rolled a bunch of sixes, and all in all got enough successes to pin the Force 9 spirit to the far wall with it.

toturi
2009-08-23, 09:13 AM
I fully intend to.

That was the jist of what the friend told me. He had mentioned the party having to frequently run away, because they were unable to damage summoned spirits. Humorously enough, though, one of the party members had a bow that would damage said spirits and didn't realize it until they were cornered. He spent an edge, rolled a bunch of sixes, and all in all got enough successes to pin the spirit to the far wall with it.

Load your weapons with Stick and Shocks. Should be able to disrupt lower Force spirits with them.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-23, 09:36 AM
Quick question as I'm reading it... it says you can build a lodge for Force x 500 nuyen... can you start play with one? Is there a cap on how high a Force lodge you can start out with?

Swordguy
2009-08-23, 11:20 AM
Quick question as I'm reading it... it says you can build a lodge for Force x 500 nuyen... can you start play with one? Is there a cap on how high a Force lodge you can start out with?

Offhand, I recall you can start with a lodge - but the rub is the Availability Rating. Remember, you have maximum Availability limits on starting PCs.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-23, 12:33 PM
Offhand, I recall you can start with a lodge - but the rub is the Availability Rating. Remember, you have maximum Availability limits on starting PCs.Ah, yes, I figured there'd be something stopping a PC from starting with a Force 15 lodge. :smalltongue: Thanks.

Still reading, am currently at the whole summoning/banishing/binding bit. Man, it looks like a higher-Force spirit is going to be just about invulnerable without a mage in the party. :smalltongue:

Also, I think there was something about if you send a bound spirit off to do something halfway across the world, it doesn't count as bound to you while it's doing so. Did I read that wrong, or is it a way to get around the "you can't have more spirits bound to you than your Charisma" limitation?

comicshorse
2009-08-23, 02:32 PM
Also, I think there was something about if you send a bound spirit off to do something halfway across the world, it doesn't count as bound to you while it's doing so. Did I read that wrong, or is it a way to get around the "you can't have more spirits bound to you than your Charisma" limitation?

That's Remote Service and yes " Spirits on remote service no longer count against the limit of summoned spirits " ( p178 Showdowrun 4e) the catch is if you ask the Spirit to perform a remote service that uses all your services at once.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-25, 09:36 PM
Thanks. Obviously, I took Incompetent (Perception) IRL. :smalltongue:

I was still worried that running two games would decrease the quality of both, so I told my players that we'll put the D&D game on haiatus for a little while, and play some Shadowrun.

Also, looks like I'll be getting a couple more players. :smallsmile:

Werewindlefr
2009-08-26, 01:37 AM
My advice: avoid too much combat. Unlike D&D, where characters can soak several blows and live to tell about it, in Shadowrun a single shot can result in severe injury, coma, or death. A sniper rifle will kill almost anything but the toughest trolls. A mage willing to hurt himself a bit can take down a whole squad of elite guards, and a guy with an assault cannon can think about killing a Dragon. The players can't play it hack and slash, they won't survive it.
Otherwise, good luck. Shadowrun 4e is a good game worth spending time and going past its complexity.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-29, 04:17 AM
Hoi, chummers. Thought I'd fill you in on how it went. :smallsmile:

The PCs

Kyra, orcish street samurai/sneak with the Human-Looking quality. She owns a nightclub in town and drives a motorcycle. Has a bit of a "catgirl" thing going, in that she has cyber-ears, the balancing tail, and her cyber-hands have metal claws housed in the fingers. She's allergic to wool.

Smite, elven rigger/smuggler. Has no SIN (not even a fake one), and literally lives out of his van. Has a corporate contact in Ares, as well as a fixer chummer with regional ties. He's also chromed-up with illegal aluminum bone lacing, a control rig, and smuggling compartments. He is allergic to styrofoam.

Ryu, dwarven technomancer. When his parents were murdered by a gang, he had to grow up on his own. Now he works a part-time job at Shocky Steve's Electronics Emporium for minimum wage. He has a little scooter he drives to get around town.

Dape, dwarven rigger. Works as one of the grease monkeys at a garage. Has reaction-enhancing cyberware, and is allergic to gold. He has a variety of drones that he keeps around, and drives a GMC Bulldog.

Incognito, "human" shaman. He paints, writes depressing poetry, and plays the guitar.

Opening

Smite's fixer calls him up and asks him to meet him at Kyra's nightclub in four hours to discuss "business." Smite sends a message to Ryu, Dape, and the shaman to let them know they might have a job.

With some time before the meeting, Smite decides to buy some nails, super-glue, and a box of teddy bears (having no SIN, he actually sits outside the hardware store and offers passers-by money to go in and buy the stuff for him). I really wasn't sure where he was going with this. He also wanted to buy some syringes. :smalleek:

Dape and Ryu still have to finish their work for the day, of course. The shaman paints an abstract of a dog, and then decides to spend his remaining hours investigating gang activity.

Uh-Oh...

The shaman's player rolls a critical glitch. I decide he gets to experience the gang activity first-hand when about fifteen gangers start having a firefight in the streets. I make some rolls, and apparently all this is going down a few blocks away from Dape's auto shop.

I let Dape's player roll Perception to see if he hears the gunfire. He rolls a critical glitch, leading Dape to believe he is hearing the familiar jingle-jangle of ice cream tunes. Dape's player knows what's going on, but plays along and decides to get an ice cream cone (and conveniently leaves his gun behind).

Luckily, they have enough sense to take cover, and then call Smite for help. Smite gives up on buying the syringes, hops into his car, and hightails his way over there, letting the other PCs know that Dape and the shaman are in trouble.

And they are in trouble. The only thing that stops the shaman from death by grenade is the fact that he took cover earlier. Dape deploys an iBall with the built-in smoke grenade to try and give the shaman a chance to get away from the heat. The shaman makes his Running test to make a break for it...

...and gets a critical glitch. Smite gets there in time to see the effects of Dape's smoke bomb and hits the brakes, stopping just as the unlucky shaman leaps out of the smoke cloud, barking his shins on the hood of Smite's car.

They pile into his car and take off, taking a series of confusing routes in order to throw off any police that may be pursuing them before finally making it back to Kyra's nightclub, where Smite's fixer is waiting in a private room...

Meet Mr. Johnson...

Seated with the fixer was a nerdy-looking man who was apparently wanting to hire a discreet team of shadowrunners. Said Mr. Johnson told them that he suspected that the manager of a minor snack company in the northern part of the city was guilty of wrongdoing, and knew of a set of files in the corporate offices that would either confirm or deny his suspicions.

If they could get him said files without being caught, he would pay them 400 nuyen per person. Of course, they were supposed to haggle and get a higher amount out of him (he was prepared to pay as much as 1000 nuyen per person for their services), but lackluster rolls only got him up to 550 per person. The group accepted the mission anyway, and began to plan.

Planning

The planning stage took up the rest of the session. Ryu did a LOT of research, and didn't botch a single roll, while the others discussed how they might pull this off. He also signed himself up to tour their factory the day after their heist, and enjoy a bag of free cookies.

Smite went down to the Stuffer Shack and bought a microwave, a burrito, and some hair spray, and then asked Kyra if she had some glass bottles and corks (okay, now I'm really curious as to what sort of Macgyver move he's gonna try and pull off).

From what they said, it seems that their plan is to either

a) hack the company's employee roster, and add themselves to the list of nighttime janitors, steal the files, and then remove themselves from the roster, along with any traces of their presence

or

b) hack the company's security cameras, using last week's security tapes, and use their Mag-lock passkeys to get inside the restricted areas and get the files.

Either way, I'm eager to see how this plays out.

We all had fun with the session, but it's obvious I'll have to read the Matrix section more thoroughly.

OverdrivePrime
2009-08-29, 10:09 AM
Sounds like heaps of fun, Alucard!

You might consider adding in a corporate rigger who's jacked into the building security system. It adds a very fun challenge, and makes sure that the Technomancer and Rigger don't cakewalk through the run.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-29, 10:16 AM
Sounds like heaps of fun, Alucard!It certainly was. :smallbiggrin:


You might consider adding in a corporate rigger who's jacked into the building security system. It adds a very fun challenge, and makes sure that the Technomancer and Rigger don't cakewalk through the run.Great idea! Thanks! :smallsmile:

Deliverance
2009-08-29, 05:48 PM
Good story, Alucard, but it leaves one question open: Did Smite get his teddy bears?
I can't wait to hear what his plan is. :D

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-29, 05:57 PM
Did Smite get his teddy bears?He got twenty of them. No syringes, though, and I really wasn't sure how to answer the whole "Do they still make corks in 2070?" issue.

I really wish he'd tell me his plan. :smallmad:

Lycan 01
2009-08-30, 12:35 AM
Wow, dude. You made me want to play Shadowrun, a game I basically swore I'd never GM. :smalltongue:

Sounds like you've got a pretty good thing going, dude. Oh, and I'd actually suggest you don't try to figure out and/or foil the jerryrigger's plans. Sometimes its fun to pop something crazy out on the GM, and even the GM likes it sometimes. I'm usually more entertained than flustered when my PC's manage to come up with some crazy idea that can either make or break the game...


So how often are ya'll playing? I'm curious as to where this goes...

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-30, 12:59 AM
So how often are ya'll playing?Our group tries to play every Friday evening. I can't guarantee that it'll stay like this, what with classes having started. :smalleek:

Timeras
2009-08-30, 02:42 AM
I suggest that as long as the stuff Smite is trying to buy woulndn't be too hard to get (and syringes would be fairly easy) you just let him have it and enjoy the mess he causes.
Considering the regular equipment PCs can get it will probably be a fun way to do something he could have had easier.

Gralamin
2009-08-30, 03:23 AM
He got twenty of them. No syringes, though, and I really wasn't sure how to answer the whole "Do they still make corks in 2070?" issue.

I really wish he'd tell me his plan. :smallmad:

Watch this one, sounds like he's up to something crazy.

Teddy Bears, nails, super-glue, Syringes, and Corks... Anything else crazy he was getting?

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-30, 10:35 AM
He got everything I had listed off, except for the syringes. Oh, and he'd also asked his fixer friend to see if he can get some fragmentation grenades.

And yeah, I'm allowing him to get the stuff, but I can't help being curious about it all. :smalleek:

Timeras
2009-08-30, 02:41 PM
I can't help being curious about it all.
Please tell us when you find out.

chiasaur11
2009-08-30, 02:50 PM
You know, if I was him, I'd ask for everything my plan needed...

And a half dozen random things it didn't to prevent anyone from guessing.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-30, 05:31 PM
You know, if I was him, I'd ask for everything my plan needed...

And a half dozen random things it didn't to prevent anyone from guessing.That may very well be what he's done. Can't be sure.

We might have a new player joining the group next week; well, he's not new to Shadowrun... he's actually the guy who played the Rigger back when I played Shadowrun. He's considering either playing a Sniper/Face or a Mage.

Given that his previous character had managed to design and build Tachikomas within the context of the game, I'm expecting a healthy amount of awesome from him. :smalltongue:

Also, we're considering revising the shaman's character. See, he's a bit of a furry, and had been wanting to play a dog-like character, and I really didn't know anything about how to do that. Only yesterday did I look in the Runner's Companion and find the bit about changelings.

comicshorse
2009-08-31, 10:25 AM
f they could get him said files without being caught, he would pay them 400 nuyen per person. Of course, they were supposed to haggle and get a higher amount out of him (he was prepared to pay as much as 1000 nuyen per person for their services), but lackluster rolls only got him up to 550 per person. The group accepted the mission anyway, and began to plan.


Glad to see your paying them a reasonable rate for a starting job and starting with the Johnson screwing the P.C.s ( you can bet he's keeping the difference for himself) :smallsmile:

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-31, 10:33 PM
So, I talked to the player about his odd purchases. Turns out that he's been improvising his way through it all. However, he started complaining when we began to talk about the setting, saying we're "giving him ideas." :smalltongue:

Lycan 01
2009-08-31, 10:45 PM
That may very well be what he's done. Can't be sure.

We might have a new player joining the group next week; well, he's not new to Shadowrun... he's actually the guy who played the Rigger back when I played Shadowrun. He's considering either playing a Sniper/Face or a Mage.

Given that his previous character had managed to design and build Tachikomas within the context of the game, I'm expecting a healthy amount of awesome from him. :smalltongue:

Also, we're considering revising the shaman's character. See, he's a bit of a furry, and had been wanting to play a dog-like character, and I really didn't know anything about how to do that. Only yesterday did I look in the Runner's Companion and find the bit about changelings.


You can make Tachikomas? As in... from Ghost in the Shell? :smalleek: AWESOME!! :smallbiggrin:

Kinda just had a mental facepalm moment there. I love Ghost in the Shell; its one of my favorite anime series. I've always thought of Shadowrun as "DnD meets the Matrix," but I just realized its more like "DnD meets Ghost in the Shell" instead. And I have to say, it sounds much more appealing when thought of like that...

Or do I have the wrong ideas? :smallconfused:

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-31, 10:50 PM
Or do I have the wrong ideas?The way I see it, I'd say Shadowrun has more ties to Ghost in the Shell than it does to The Matrix. Just look at the cyberware. :smallsmile:

Lycan 01
2009-08-31, 11:01 PM
Hm... What sort of Cyberware are we talkin' here? :smallconfused:

Actually, I might as well ask whatever questions I have while I have the chance...

What's the dice system for this game?

How complex is the game itself compared to... oh... say... Dark Heresy (most complex game I've played) or Star Wars Saga (most simple game I've played)?

How many players would be suggested?

Is it more combat heavy or stealth/planning heavy?

Are there cyborgs, exo-suits, robo-sentires, and other GitS-y things? :smallbiggrin:

How much work does the DM have to do? Is this a game you can fly by the seat of your pants with, or will I have to be planning games weeks in advance?

What are some sample missions? I know there's the whole "break into the office building and steal the files" thing, but if that's all there is the game will get old fast. For some of the players, at least...

Swordguy
2009-09-01, 12:30 AM
Ah....crap. Oh well, I don't have anything else to do tonight.

Veteran SR players - please don't take umbrage. I'm simplifying concepts and mechanics for the sake of, well, simplicity.

Lycan, I'm assuming you want to know about SR4e, since that's the current edition. Ask me if you wanna know about 3e.


Hm... What sort of Cyberware are we talkin' here? :smallconfused:

Cyber in Shadowrun ranges from headware (cybereyes, datajacks, extra memory, and cortex bombs) to full-on cyberlimbs (obvious and not) - including digitgrade legs and cybertails - and all the way to ballistic armor under the skin and stuff that increases your reflexes. As a rule of thumb, if there's a given improvement to your body you want, some cyberdoc out there can arrange it for you with enough time, money, and Essence cost.


What's the dice system for this game?

Pool O' Dice. Each attribute and skill are rated, generally from 1-6. Add the rating of your skill+attribute, plus or minus any modifiers (a smartlink targeting system, for example, adds two dice, while running while you shoot subtracts two dice). Roll that many dice - each die that rolls a 5 or 6 is a "hit". The more hits, the better your result. Opposed tests compare the numbers of hits in the roll. Some tests require a minimum number of hits (a "threshold") for success. In the case of attack rolls, extra hits add damage, and the opponent can make Dodge rolls or Body Resistance rolls to reduce the number of hits (and thus the damage) of your attack.

Thematically, I understand it's mechanically fairly similar in spirit to nWoD.




How complex is the game itself compared to... oh... say... Dark Heresy (most complex game I've played) or Star Wars Saga (most simple game I've played)?

Apples and oranges, honestly. It's complex in that there's a lot of potential actions and modifiers, but simple in that everything just adds or subtracts from your dice pool. Let's see...I'd rate D&D 4e at a 3, SW Saga at a 4, Dark Heresy at a 6.5, D&D 3.5 at a 7, and Rolemaster at a 9 for comparative complexity. Given that set of benchmarks, I'd put Shadowrun 4e at about a 5.5-6.5 (down from SR3e's 7-7.5ish).




How many players would be suggested?

Generally speaking, there's several roles you'll want covered. You need a mage, a hacker, and a gun-bunny at a minimum. So, 3. In my experience, the ideal party is 5, and not more than 6. The party of 5 adds another gun-bunny or physical mage-adept (think magicked-up ninja), and a rigger (somebody who has an unnatural relationship with cars/armed remote drones). The 6th person can be whatever. Additionally, SOMEBODY in the party needs to have some semblance of Etiquette/social skills to handle social situations (like negotiating for a bigger paycheck, chummer) - this person is normally referred to as the "face".



Is it more combat heavy or stealth/planning heavy?

Depends on your group. SR supports any level of play from "street punks with Saturday Night Specials" to "crazy special-forces badasses cybered or magicked to the nines who blow up slightly more stuff than the A-Team" to "quiet professionals who you never even knew were there...but you're missing your MacGuffin anyway".

Having the group decide on a shared power level, or having the GM impose one, is an incredibly good idea.

I'm partial to the idea that the game is supposed to be centered around stealth and planning, and guns are mainly there for when your mission has gone horribly wrong (excepting the occasional wetwork run, obviously). But I've played in rollicking shoot-em-ups as well, and as long as people remember that bullets kill in SR, it can be loads of fun.



Are there cyborgs, exo-suits, robo-sentires, and other GitS-y things? :smallbiggrin:

Yes (although you REALLY don't want to be a full-on 'borg), yes, yes, and yes.

A note: cyberware is limited by your Essence score. Essentially, Essence is your soul/humanity. Remember what happens when a Skeksis takes away all a Gelfling's essence? Same thing happens to you (ie, dead). Cyber is inherently harmful to the soul - it makes you less human. Thus, cyber decreases your Essence score. More cyber=more Essence loss. Don't let your score hit zero.

To be a full cyborg (SR term is "cyberzombie") requires a sub-zero Essence score. Essentially, they kill you, cyber you up a bunch while magically binding your spirit in your body, and bring you back. You get lots of neat toys, but it's bad news all around, really.



How much work does the DM have to do? Is this a game you can fly by the seat of your pants with, or will I have to be planning games weeks in advance?

The ability to fly by the seat of your pants is generally helpful. You'll generally make up a floorplan of whatever the PCs need to break into, decide on the security and computer systems, and say "PCs - go get in there". Then you'll have to react on the fly to however they feel like doing it.

Shadowrun GMing, by the intent of the designers and the system, is the epitome of "objective-based gaming". Give the players the objective and get out of their way.



What are some sample missions? I know there's the whole "break into the office building and steal the files" thing, but if that's all there is the game will get old fast. For some of the players, at least...

250-ish Shadowrun Game Ideas (http://ingomonk.bullhonkie.com/forums/index.php?topic=1375.0)

Let me know when you're done with those - I've got more. :smallbiggrin:

Dracomorph
2009-09-01, 12:50 AM
Hm... What sort of Cyberware are we talkin' here? :smallconfused:

Cyberware in Shadowrun is strictly body modification; no replacements. And the more you have, the more dead you are to magic. Mages rarely have even the least bit of the stuff.


Actually, I might as well ask whatever questions I have while I have the chance...

What's the dice system for this game?

You roll pools of d6's for everything. 5 or 6 is a success, and you aim for a certain number of successes.


How complex is the game itself compared to... oh... say... Dark Heresy (most complex game I've played) or Star Wars Saga (most simple game I've played)?

Well, I'm not really familiar with either of those systems. I can tell you it's a bit simpler than D&D 3e, though. The resolution mechanics are more universal, but combat requires attack and defenses to be rolled.


How many players would be suggested?

Enough. Or, ideally, between 3 and 7.


Is it more combat heavy or stealth/planning heavy?

Depends largely on individual playstyle.


Are there cyborgs, exo-suits, robo-sentires, and other GitS-y things? :smallbiggrin:

How much work does the DM have to do? Is this a game you can fly by the seat of your pants with, or will I have to be planning games weeks in advance?

Pretty much any non-mage will have at least some cyberware. Exo-suits pretty much only if you count hi-tech armor. Robots are outlined in the book, although my games didn't use them much. It's very much just as dystopic as GitS.

While you can run it as spontaneous as you want, it tends to work better if you outline at least the areas the players will be at.


What are some sample missions? I know there's the whole "break into the office building and steal the files" thing, but if that's all there is the game will get old fast. For some of the players, at least...

Well, one of the primary mission types is the extraction, which can be files like that, OR it can be an escape run for an employee, or even a kidnapping.

One of the stories in the core book is about a run to destroy the entire stock of a certain product. Other possibilities include assassination, basic escort, or even, if you want to stretch it, item recovery. You can actually justify a dungeon crawl if you work at it.

Sound good?

EDIT: Ninjas with swords!

Lilienthal
2009-09-01, 08:04 AM
I've never played Shadowrun, but I still recommend reading the C.L.U.E. files, a collection of stories about Shadowrun missions that go horribly wrong. The only problem is that they have seemed to dissapear off the face of the web, does anyone know an archive site that still has them? (The Wayback Machine and the website that mirrored the original are both down).

And finally, a question of my own: would it be feasible to learn how to play (and GM) the system with zero experience? None of the groups I'm familiar with know the system so I'm looking into running a game of my own. The planning aspect has a big appeal to me.

Lost Demiurge
2009-09-01, 08:48 AM
Lilienthal, it is VERY possible to run the system with no experience. Ironically, the fact that no one else at the table has any experience either, will help you.

My advice is to get the general mechanics down, and avoid getting bogged down in the details. If you don't know a rule or particular mechanic, make up stuff for it on the fly, say that you're doing so, and look it up after the game. Use logic, and shortcut stuff that's a pain in the arse. For example, I find the explosive rules hard to memorize and slow to effect in play, so I do a rough estimate for any bombs the PC's want to build. I also streamline hacking down from 5-6 rolls to 2-3, most times. No one complains.

EleventhHour
2009-09-01, 08:57 AM
250-ish Shadowrun Game Ideas (http://ingomonk.bullhonkie.com/forums/index.php?topic=1375.0)

Let me know when you're done with those - I've got more. :smallbiggrin:

...speaking of which... Anyone want to run a 3E Shadowrun itP? I've been having fun trying to create a character. :smalltongue:

Lost Demiurge
2009-09-01, 09:15 AM
...speaking of which... Anyone want to run a 3E Shadowrun itP? I've been having fun trying to create a character. :smalltongue:

3E? Nah, not really.

Been toying with the idea of a 4E game, though. But this one'd be quite different then the usual default setting and character build...

Cristo Meyers
2009-09-01, 09:21 AM
...speaking of which... Anyone want to run a 3E Shadowrun itP? I've been having fun trying to create a character. :smalltongue:

I could, but like Lost Demiurge I prefer 4E and I just can't guaruntee I'd have the time to run a PBP right now (stupid house...). 4E just seems to run a bit smoother than 3E did.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-01, 09:56 AM
Sounds like you've got a pretty good thing going, dude. Oh, and I'd actually suggest you don't try to figure out and/or foil the jerryrigger's plans. Sometimes its fun to pop something crazy out on the GM, and even the GM likes it sometimes.

Agreed.

I read an article a while back where the writer said that as GM, he wanted/expected the player to be honest about what the PC was doing/stockpiling/whatever, but not necessarily why.

He recounted an old D&D game he'd run where the story ended with a clash against the BBEG's armies. Now, throughout the campaign one of the PCs collected every single magic weapon no matter how feeble and stored them all in portable hole or something. Everyone knew that he was doing it, but just thought it was a quirk or fixation. Then towards the end of the campaign, he pulls out all these +1 swords etc, and equips practically their whole side's army with them. The GM said that they steamrollered the BBEG's troops, but he thought that him being genuinely taken by surprise by this was far more fun than if he'd known and tried to counter it.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-01, 10:03 AM
*in-depth comparison snipped*

Apples and oranges, honestly. It's complex in that there's a lot of potential actions and modifiers, but simple in that everything just adds or subtracts from your dice pool. Let's see...I'd rate D&D 4e at a 3, SW Saga at a 4, Dark Heresy at a 6.5, D&D 3.5 at a 7, and Rolemaster at a 9 for comparative complexity. Given that set of benchmarks, I'd put Shadowrun 4e at about a 5.5-6.5 (down from SR3e's 7-7.5ish).

*more snipped*

Interesting stuff. I've never played SR, but I used to do Cyberpunk 2020 years ago, and some of what you say sounds familiar. While it has its faults, I did enjoy it (from what I've read CP v3 not so good). Have you ever played CP2020, and if so, how would you rate its complexity on your scale?

Swordguy
2009-09-01, 12:51 PM
I've never played Shadowrun, but I still recommend reading the C.L.U.E. files, a collection of stories about Shadowrun missions that go horribly wrong. The only problem is that they have seemed to dissapear off the face of the web, does anyone know an archive site that still has them? (The Wayback Machine and the website that mirrored the original are both down).


The CLUE Files. (http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gaming/shadowrun/clue-files.html)



Have you ever played CP2020, and if so, how would you rate its complexity on your scale?

Erm...been a while since I did CP2020. From my recollection, I'd put it about a 7.5-8. But I was pretty young when I played it, so I could be inflating the difficulty from the inexperience of youth.

Cristo Meyers
2009-09-01, 01:11 PM
The CLUE Files. (http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gaming/shadowrun/clue-files.html)


Aren't one of those from a game of yours?

I could've sworn you said as much...

Swordguy
2009-09-01, 01:18 PM
Aren't one of those from a game of yours?

I could've sworn you said as much...

A couple of them are, actually. Why do you think I have them bookmarked offhand? The one I generally reference is this horrible little number:



Regarding our next little tidbit (which was submitted by one of CLUE's network of alert readers), this is NOT a clue story. And it's not even a stealth story. But it sends enough chills up the spine to warrant mention, especially so close to Halloween.

Please note that this account was submitted by eye-witnesses, and I did confirm.

Who needs a curse?
"My group of six runners was in the process of breaking camp to continue on our journey through some flatland. From over the horizon came the silhouette of two GMC Banshees. Not prepared for a firefight, the team scrambled to break out the ordinance, the rigger sprints for the Bison, etc.

The troll mage, who has had an unfortunate experience with Banshees in the past, panics and tosses a fireball at the closest one, throwing in all the dice he can get his hands on. The result? He rolls 28 dice for the fireball.

The group was hushed as he shook the huge handful of dice and cast them onto the table.

They came up all ones.

So, as the Banshees bear down onto the camp, the troll mage erupted into a mushroom cloud of organic debris.

We stopped playing for the night. It was a baaadddd omen…"

I've got one other one in there...but I'll let you guys figure that one out.

OverdrivePrime
2009-09-01, 02:27 PM
O__O

28 dice of critical glitch. There are no words.

Cristo Meyers
2009-09-01, 02:44 PM
O__O

28 dice of critical glitch. There are no words.

I know. I wouldn't have stopped and leaving off playing for the night. I'd have gone out and bought brand new dice and then buried the offending 28 in the backyard, safely away from gamer-kind.

'Course, then someone would dig them up and they'd become like the Blackened Denarius from the Dresden Files...

Saph
2009-09-01, 03:57 PM
28 dice of critical glitch. There are no words.

Honestly, this is one I have trouble believing.

If it was anyone but Swordguy, I'd just dismiss it out of hand, but . . . Do you know what the odds are on rolling 28 ones on 28 dice? I make it one in 6.14 times 10 to the 21. That's about one in 6 thousand million million million. The number's so ridiculous it's almost impossible to make meaningful comparisons to it.

Here's the best I can do. There are about six billion people on the Earth. So if you got everyone on Earth, man, woman, and child, to roll a set of 28 dice at the rate of one roll per second, then on average, for a set of 28 ones to come up once would take approximately 31,710 years.

That's with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD doing nothing but making that same roll over and over again.

. . . Yeah. Doing the maths has made me realise that it simply couldn't have happened on a fair roll. Either it was loaded dice, or exaggeration. Frankly, the odds of someone at the table causing it to happen by telekinesis are probably higher than the odds of making that roll normally.

OverdrivePrime
2009-09-01, 04:12 PM
I've seen some pretty ridiculously bad rolls (particularly with WEG's Star Wars system), and probability seems to stretch and distort whenever a gamer gets too cocky.

Currently my players have lucked out on glitches, only one or two, and no critical glitches. As the GM, that generally seems to be my job. :smallsigh:

EleventhHour
2009-09-01, 04:15 PM
It was Swordguy, with his Quadrillions of damage. :smallfrown: Why did you have to use that mind for evil?

comicshorse
2009-09-01, 04:36 PM
Posted by Unwitting Pawn

Interesting stuff. I've never played SR, but I used to do Cyberpunk 2020 years ago, and some of what you say sounds familiar. While it has its faults, I did enjoy it (from what I've read CP v3 not so good). Have you ever played CP2020, and if so, how would you rate its complexity on your scale?

I'd rate Cyberpunk as generally easier than Shadowrun ( especially since there's no magic to worry about). And yes Cyberpunk 3 is horrendous and should be abominated by all right thinking folks

Swordguy
2009-09-01, 04:50 PM
Honestly, this is one I have trouble believing.

If it was anyone but Swordguy, I'd just dismiss it out of hand, but . . . Do you know what the odds are on rolling 28 ones on 28 dice? I make it one in 6.14 times 10 to the 21. That's about one in 6 thousand million million million. The number's so ridiculous it's almost impossible to make meaningful comparisons to it.


Actually, thank you. That means something to me.

Honestly, the person in question generally rolled low anyway, so I would, in retrospect, pin it on (unintentionally) semi-loaded dice. One of the downsides of Shadowrun is that it requires a huge number of dice, and people generally buy very cheap dice cubes for it. Why are they very cheap? Because they aren't always the best-quality dice. Thusly, they'll be more prone to roll a given number - this guy just had dice that rolled low. While some people just ARE unlucky with dice (and like me, have done empirical studies to prove it), this guy wasn't, except when he was rolling his "lucky" SR dice.

I don't like saying "loaded" dice, because it implies malice aforethought. I'm positive that he just had cheap dice that weren't made especially well. The question then logically gets raised "are ANY dice rolls really fair?" which is a fairly thorny question. No die is perfect, and the style of rolling affects the rolls, so is the guy "to blame" to this or not? For my part, the die roll was fair enough - his dice, he shook them a couple of times in his hands and actually rolled them as opposed to letting them drop. Yes, his dice may have been predisposed to roll ones...

But predisposed dice or not, he still rolled 28 ones on 28 dice. That's still staggeringly bad luck. It'd still be mathematically impressive even if he had dice that were explicitly weighted to roll ALL ones because even deliberately weighted dice don't roll like you want them to all the time.

kjones
2009-09-01, 04:59 PM
If it was anyone but Swordguy, I'd just dismiss it out of hand, but . . . Do you know what the odds are on rolling 28 ones on 28 dice? I make it one in 6.14 times 10 to the 21. That's about one in 6 thousand million million million. The number's so ridiculous it's almost impossible to make meaningful comparisons to it.

I'd have to do maths to work it out precisely but I think it's approximately the probability of every air molecule in a room forming up into a conga line.

chiasaur11
2009-09-01, 05:36 PM
Wow. Those odds are so bad that they go right past 1-in-a-million to infinitely improbable.

Both of which come up more often then they have any right to.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-01, 05:40 PM
I'd rate Cyberpunk as generally easier than Shadowrun ( especially since there's no magic to worry about). And yes Cyberpunk 3 is horrendous and should be abominated by all right thinking folks

So, on the understanding that you didn't think CP2020 was horrendous... :smallwink:
...outside of the complexity issue, is SR basically just CP with magic/elves? Or are there more subtle differences than that?

Lycan 01
2009-09-01, 05:45 PM
I've seen about 8 out of 10 d6 come up as 1's before. Theoretically, its possible, especially if the dice were bad. There are standards for balancing dice, and even tests you can do to determine if they're balanced. Hypothetically, sub-par dice could have resulted in uneven odds. Coupled with the chance of already rolling a 1 on the "good" dice, if there were any, and the odds of a 1-fest being rolled are a bit more... plausible. Hypothetically, at least.


Me? I find it... unlikely, but not impossible. Its just something that must be seen first-hand to be believed... :smallconfused:

comicshorse
2009-09-01, 06:33 PM
So, on the understanding that you didn't think CP2020 was horrendous...
...outside of the complexity issue, is SR basically just CP with magic/elves? Or are there more subtle differences than that?

I love Cyberpunk which is why I find the last edition such an abomination :smallsmile:

There are stylistic differences between the two above the magic.
Shadowrun goes in a lot more for mysterious conspiracies ( usually ancient elf, dragon or vampire based admittedly). But conspiracies play a larger part in the Shadowrun universe

Cyberpunk tends to be grittier and nastier. This is a world where shooting strangers and selling their organs is a regular source of income for some gangs. Similarily the effects if Cyberware are handled differently. In Shadowrun there is a little effect until you hit zero and die in Cyberpunk you become steadily more remote and vicious, until you tip over the edge into Cyberpsychosis at which point you usually go on a killing spree until the Cyberpsycho squad get you

Cyberpunk tends to be exclusively city based whereas Shadowrun like to run safari adventures ( usually involving paranatural critters) in the untamed wilderness. In Cyberpunk the areas that aren't city tend to be radioactive or polluted beyond belief.

Cyberpunk is more of an anarchy. The world in Shadowrun tends to be pretty politically stable, Cyberpunk is filled with minor wars, gang run areas, decaying or collapsed countries and corporate dictatorships

Cyberpunk tends to be more violent. Booster gangs basically live to get more cyberware and kill people. Corporations have the kind of military forces that would make most Shadowrun corporations throw in the white flag at once and are not averse to using them in ways most Shadowrun Corporations would regard as incredibly unsubtle

In Shadowrun the Corporations like to maintain a PR departement to convince people they are benevolent orginazations and cover up the evil **** they do. Cyberpunk corporations don't bother, they know everyone thinks they are evil but as so is the world they don't care

Lilienthal
2009-09-01, 06:44 PM
The CLUE Files. (http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gaming/shadowrun/clue-files.html)
Ah yes, that's the site I tried to retrieve them from, but the Archive was down when I tried it earlier. It seems to be working smoothly enough now though.


. . . Yeah. Doing the maths has made me realise that it simply couldn't have happened on a fair roll. Either it was loaded dice, or exaggeration. Frankly, the odds of someone at the table causing it to happen by telekinesis are probably higher than the odds of making that roll normally.
Improbability does not equate to impossibility.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-01, 06:58 PM
I love Cyberpunk which is why I find the last edition such an abomination :smallsmile:

There are stylistic differences between the two above the magic.
Shadowrun goes in a lot more for mysterious conspiracies ( usually ancient elf, dragon or vampire based admittedly). But conspiracies play a larger part in the Shadowrun universe

Cyberpunk tends to be grittier and nastier. This is a world where shooting strangers and selling their organs is a regular source of income for some gangs. Similarily the effects if Cyberware are handled differently. In Shadowrun there is a little effect until you hit zero and die in Cyberpunk you become steadily more remote and vicious, until you tip over the edge into Cyberpsychosis at which point you usually go on a killing spree until the Cyberpsycho squad get you

Cyberpunk tends to be exclusively city based whereas Shadowrun like to run safari adventures ( usually involving paranatural critters) in the untamed wilderness. In Cyberpunk the areas that aren't city tend to be radioactive or polluted beyond belief.

Cyberpunk is more of an anarchy. The world in Shadowrun tends to be pretty politically stable, Cyberpunk is filled with minor wars, gang run areas, decaying or collapsed countries and corporate dictatorships

Cyberpunk tends to be more violent. Booster gangs basically live to get more cyberware and kill people. Corporations have the kind of military forces that would make most Shadowrun corporations throw in the white flag at once and are not averse to using them in ways most Shadowrun Corporations would regard as incredibly unsubtle

In Shadowrun the Corporations like to maintain a PR departement to convince people they are benevolent orginazations and cover up the evil **** they do. Cyberpunk corporations don't bother, they know everyone thinks they are evil but as so is the world they don't care

Thanks for the detailed comparison. Cheers! :smallbiggrin:

Saph
2009-09-01, 07:50 PM
Improbability does not equate to impossibility.

I don't think you fully grasp the level of improbability we're talking about here. It's well beyond unlikely, out through the other end of ridiculous and well into "no, it didn't happen" territory.

chiasaur11
2009-09-01, 08:00 PM
I don't think you fully grasp the level of improbability we're talking about here. It's well beyond unlikely, out through the other end of ridiculous and well into "no, it didn't happen" territory.

We are, in fact, into the territory of things that require narrativium to work.

Seen any authentic Shakespeare stuff lately? Might have some dust left over from when he met Rhincewind...

Lost Demiurge
2009-09-02, 08:34 AM
I don't think you fully grasp the level of improbability we're talking about here. It's well beyond unlikely, out through the other end of ridiculous and well into "no, it didn't happen" territory.

I don't see what the fuss is about.

There was a chance for it to happen. It happened. Sure it was a stupid high chance, but the chance was still there. Is still there, every time someone rolls 28 dice.

Mm. Wait. You're a math guy, yes? Or a physics buff?

Saph
2009-09-02, 09:00 AM
There was a chance for it to happen. It happened. Sure it was a stupid high chance, but the chance was still there. Is still there, every time someone rolls 28 dice.

Look, I've got an interest in probability. I'm not a maths teacher or professor, but I have people in my family who are, and I've picked up some things from them.

There's a certain level of improbability which is functionally identical to impossibility. A layman will say "well, it's possible, I guess . . ." but a good statistician will flat-out tell you that it did not happen - and if you investigate it, every single time you will find that they're right.

Saying "well, the chance is still there" is very, very misleading. Normal human frames of reference and ideas of possibility simply don't apply when you're talking about numbers measured in sextillions.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-02, 09:15 AM
Look, I've got an interest in probability. I'm not a maths teacher or professor, but I have people in my family who are, and I've picked up some things from them.

There's a certain level of improbability which is functionally identical to impossibility. A layman will say "well, it's possible, I guess . . ." but a good statistician will flat-out tell you that it did not happen - and if you investigate it, every single time you will find that they're right.

Saying "well, the chance is still there" is very, very misleading. Normal human frames of reference and ideas of possibility simply don't apply when you're talking about numbers measured in sextillions.

It might happen on average only once it every approx "31,710 years" if everyone in the world rolled non-stop (to quote your earlier post), but that doesn't mean that it can't have ever happened. Or, that should it indeed have happened, that it will automatically take another "31,710" years for it to happen again.

You're right that human beings don't understand probability, though. It was the mathematical "geniuses" in the banking system who thought they had created a safe way to buy and sell debt without any risk. :smallwink:

Saph
2009-09-02, 10:01 AM
It might happen on average only once it every approx "31,710 years" if everyone in the world rolled non-stop (to quote your earlier post), but that doesn't mean that it can't have ever happened.

No, but it does mean that the chances are so low that they're functionally identical to zero in just about every way.

OverdrivePrime
2009-09-02, 10:20 AM
Bah, there is a possibility for it to happen, therefore it must eventually happen. The surprising thing is that it happened in our lifetime with someone around to report it.

Anyway, back to more Shadowrunning awesomeness.

In my SR4 game, I've got my players looking for a street doc who was kidnapped by a go-gang. No ransom, they just grabbed the doc and his family. The doc is an expert with pharmacology and prior to becoming a street doc due to philosophical issuess, was a very competent researcher in a corporate med lab.

So, the go-gangers kidnapped the doc and his family and delivered them to the hands of a corp. Right now, I'm thinkin' either Wuxing or Shiawase make the most sense, though neither has a very large stake in Milwaukee at this time. (At least not that I know of - never could get my hands on Shadows of North America.)

I'm sketching out plans for the protagonists to tangle with a geomancer down the road - a captain of a tong or triad with (extremely quiet) corp connections. I haven't figured out who or what would make the most sense, but I'm having fun with the concept. Any ideas out there?

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-02, 10:21 AM
No, but it does mean that the chances are so low that they're functionally identical to zero in just about every way.

I'm certainly no expert on probability, but I suspect that the actual statistical likelihood of those 28 dice all producing the identical number at the same time, may well be higher, than the probability of a hypothetical set of 28 identical perfect cubes doing so on a hypothetically perfect level rolling surface.

Lost Demiurge
2009-09-02, 10:35 AM
Look, I've got an interest in probability. I'm not a maths teacher or professor, but I have people in my family who are, and I've picked up some things from them.

There's a certain level of improbability which is functionally identical to impossibility. A layman will say "well, it's possible, I guess . . ." but a good statistician will flat-out tell you that it did not happen - and if you investigate it, every single time you will find that they're right.

Saying "well, the chance is still there" is very, very misleading. Normal human frames of reference and ideas of possibility simply don't apply when you're talking about numbers measured in sextillions.

See, now you're wrong, but you will never admit this. And now I see why we will never see eye to eye on this.

First I will tell you why I am right. Then I will tell you why you will never admit I am right. You will probably fight me on both points, ignore me, or storm off in a huff. You will NOT agree with me.

1. I am right, simply because you are putting your faith in math, rather than reality. Math is not real. It is not recognized by the universe. The amoeba on the ocean's floor does not care anything for math when it divides. The sniper cradling his rifle and sitting in the same perch for hours on end is not working out his shot on notebook paper when he finally drops his target. The sperm swimming toward the egg does not give up discouraged, because it's up against millions of other sperm. Math is a thought construct created to help us humans do things that our brains can't handle. Math is useful for predicting the outcomes of simple processes. Like its fellow thought construct, the alphabet, math has no existence in this world beyond what we grant it.

Math is NOT a religion. It is NOT a foolproof method of prognostication. It is NOT a means of declaring something impossible. And for that matter, math is an evolving science! People are to this day, discovering new ideas and uses for math, and disproving previous theories and limits. It is an ongoing science, and thus, imperfect. Flawed.

And as such, reality takes over, and rolls all 1's. Or all 6's. Or whatever. Dice roll the way dice roll, and they will continue to do so as long as there are dice. So an unlikely roll came up, and you can't handle it? Stick to cards, whenever you're in Vegas.

Now, then...

2. You are scared S*itless by the idea that we live in a world where something with a chance of occuring so small as to be statistically impossible can happen. Your mind considers all the awful things that could happen.

I, on the other hand, am THRILLED by the idea that we live in a world where almost ANYTHING that has a chance of occuring, can happen. No matter how small. My mind considers all the wonderful things that could happen.

You have fear, I have hope.

And that is why you will never admit that I am right.

Saph
2009-09-02, 10:37 AM
Demiurge, feel free to play blackjack with me anytime. :P


I'm certainly no expert on probability, but I suspect that the actual statistical likelihood of those 28 dice all producing the identical number at the same time, may well be higher, than the probability of a hypothetical set of 28 identical perfect cubes doing so on a hypothetically perfect level rolling surface.

Yeah, that's the one I'm leaning towards. Even so, as Swordguy says, rolling that many ones on loaded dice is still quite a feat.

arguskos
2009-09-02, 10:43 AM
But predisposed dice or not, he still rolled 28 ones on 28 dice. That's still staggeringly bad luck. It'd still be mathematically impressive even if he had dice that were explicitly weighted to roll ALL ones because even deliberately weighted dice don't roll like you want them to all the time.
You know, I've observed someone roll 15 1's on as many d8s before. That was pretty rough. I chalked it up to poor dice construction at the time. My uncle, who's a university statistician, confirmed the odds of this happening are insanely improbable, but then again, he was there at the time and also witnessed it. So, it's not as impossible as some folk like to say. :smallamused:

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-02, 11:01 AM
You know, I've observed someone roll 15 1's on as many d8s before. That was pretty rough. I chalked it up to poor dice construction at the time. My uncle, who's a university statistician, confirmed the odds of this happening are insanely improbable, but then again, he was there at the time and also witnessed it. So, it's not as impossible as some folk like to say. :smallamused:

Indeed. I'm sure that Saph could produce some accurate numbers for the statistical likelihood of how often 15 d8s should be allowed to all produce the same number together, but that would again be an ideal rather than the reality that those dice were operating under.

I think that the mathematical purity that governs the probability of conceptually perfect dice might not be too far from the reality of cheap dice on an imperfect surface, for common results. I.e. when we say that there's a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a total of 7 on 2d6, the actual difference in likelihood there may be of minor importance. But I wonder that the further away we get from the "normal" probable results that a certain set of dice should produce on average, the higher importance environmental factors play in upsetting the statistician. :smallwink:

EDIT:

Yeah, that's the one I'm leaning towards. Even so, as Swordguy says, rolling that many ones on loaded dice is still quite a feat.

Perhaps, although far closer to probable than impossible. Why one would choose to have dice that were loaded towards the critical-fumble end of the spectrum though, I'm not quite sure. :smallconfused:

Timeras
2009-09-02, 12:13 PM
Why one would choose to have dice that were loaded towards the critical-fumble end of the spectrum though, I'm not quite sure. :smallconfused:

It's probably not a choice. In our group one of the players had a d8 that rarely showed anything but 8's. He then made a test: he put it into a basin filled with water. The die swam with the 8 pointing up.
You may also have dice that tend toward certain results without knowing it.

Lost Demiurge
2009-09-02, 12:16 PM
Demiurge, feel free to play blackjack with me anytime. :P


Sure! Though I'm more of a poker man, myself. :)

OverdrivePrime, if you're looking for corporate connections for your geomancer, Evo might be a good fit. They've got a vested interest in keeping Shiawase and Wuxing off-balance, and I'm of the opinion that they are not shy about hiring chinese nationals, with their headquarters being not far from Hong Kong and all.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-02, 12:26 PM
You may also have dice that tend toward certain results without knowing it.

Indeed. Have indicated as much in a previous post. I was just questioning the logic of a collection of wrong-loaded dice, as opposed to merely imperfect ones. :smallwink:

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-02, 02:00 PM
Related to the earlier discussion of improbable rolls, the player I mentioned before, the one who had designed the Tachikomas, had decided to play a mage. He wanted to do some rolls with me before the game to see if he could start with a few bound spirits.

He wanted to summon a Force 6 spirit. I rolled for the spirit, and all six of the dice came up as sixes.

The player was sad. :smalltongue:

(Not as improbable as twenty-eight ones, but still a tad unlikely. :smalltongue:)

OverdrivePrime
2009-09-02, 02:12 PM
Yowch. Starting with a force 6 spirit is a little gutsy - but I never quite understood the idea of spending precious build points to get something that you could earn through roleplaying at no extra cost.


OverdrivePrime, if you're looking for corporate connections for your geomancer, Evo might be a good fit. They've got a vested interest in keeping Shiawase and Wuxing off-balance, and I'm of the opinion that they are not shy about hiring chinese nationals, with their headquarters being not far from Hong Kong and all.

Great ideas! I'll see if I can write that in. SK is hoooge in Milwaukee and they'd certainly like to see Shiawase and Wuxing lose their holdings in the Brew City. 'Course dealing with SK has its own sort of difficulties. :smallwink:

comicshorse
2009-09-02, 06:00 PM
'
Course dealing with SK has its own sort of difficulties.


Never deal with a Dragon :smallsmile:

Tehnar
2009-09-02, 06:27 PM
Well if Saph knows the method, don't ever play Blackjack with him.

How do tehnomancers function in peoples games? I found them to be a little odd concept.

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-05, 03:31 AM
Well, we just had another session.

Did I mention that two new characters were added to the roster?

Mo' PCs...

Cain, elf mage. A friend of Smite and just as SINless, Cain is probably the most charismatic hobo you will ever meet. Has been involved in a couple of smugglings in the past.

Cyrus, elf adept. Specializing in unarmed combat, Cyrus flips out and kills people. He's also allergic to silver, has simsense vertigo, and "is utterly incompetent at The Google."

Opening

Well, when last we left off, Ryu had done a bunch of research and hacking, and the group had a general idea of what they were going to do.

Smite meets up with Cain, and they do some catching up. He then decides to see if Cain would like to help them in their little endeavor. Of course, that might require some renegotiation of their contract. He attempts to call his contact a few times, and thanks to several 1s and the Rule of Funny, ends up accidentally ordering Chinese food.

Nine orders of fried rice later, he gets ahold of his contact, asks him to set up a meeting with Mr. Johnson. Mr. Johnson wasn't too enthusiastic about having another shadowrunner on the mission, but Cain hit it off fairly well with him.

All the while, Ryu is continuing to do research, while a bug in the nightclub sound system keeps Dabe and Kyra busy. (Where's Incognito in all this? His player was at a play, so we had him recovering from his injuries from the last session.) Ryu learns from one of his own contacts that another Mr. Johnson wants a mission done in the same corporate office that the party's already planning to infiltrate. He meets with him in secret, and discovers that this Mr. Johnson wants the same data that the other Mr. Johnson is after, but he wants it destroyed instead. Turns out that this Mr. Johnson is a friend of the guy that'd be in hot water over the alleged evidence.

Even better, his offer was one thousand nuyen per person. Ryu says he'll consider it, and leaves to do some more research. He ends up finding out that the Mr. Johnson they'd talked to in the first session was actually next in line after the manager.

Ready for more Uh-Oh...? You're not ready for more Uh-Oh...!

Uh-Oh...

Smite's getting bored. He arranges another mission with his fixer friend, to smuggle some BTLs to southern California a couple of days after they finish their current mission. That's all good, in and of itself, but the fixer off-handedly mentions that the box of grenades that Smite had asked for had been delivered hours ago.

Smite goes to the drop location, only to discover that half of them had been stolen. He checks the remaining grenades, and finds out that the pins are superglued in place, making removing the pin all but impossible.

Now, I'm really having trouble following Smite's logic here...

Remember that battery-operated microwave he bought? He pops the box of grenades into the microwave, puts on his Jimmy Hoffa mask, drives his sports car to a store, and brings the microwave inside. He sets the microwave down, and then exits the store. The clerk begins calling Lone Star on his commlink while Smite gets a good distance away, and then whips out his pistol.

I signal to the other players to listen as I go over his decision-making process again, step-by-step. I try to leave out as few details as I can, and Smite's player helpfully reminds me of the little things I hadn't mentioned. "Are you sure you want to do this?" I ask him.

The explosion killed ten people, and hospitalized another ten. A security camera survived the explosion.

Smite makes a break for it in his sports car, still wearing the Jimmy Hoffa mask. He manages to attract the attention of a few thugs on motorbikes, intent on claiming the nice bounty that's appeared on his head. He defeats the thugs, at the cost of reducing his expensive car to near-scrap.

So, while the rest of the party is doing productive stuff, Smite is now trying to convince his justifiably-upset fixer to buy his too-hot, shot-up sports car. He also goes under the knife for some facial work, just in case. Smite doesn't realize it, but he also gets a cranial bomb installed in his head.

Getting Paid Twice Three Times...

Well, while Smite is exploring new frontiers in bad decision-making, the group does some brainstorming. They talk to the first Mr. Johnson, revealing their suspicions as to the reason why he wants evidence of the manager's wrongdoing. He confirms their suspicions, at which point they offer an alternate solution: transferring the manager to Pennsylvania.

The party also contacts the manager himself, suggesting that they can assure a promotion for him, for a price.

Sure enough, the party manages to get him the transfer, as well as destroying the files in question (Smite arrived in time to participate in this last part). The group gets paid not once, but three times for their efforts: 600 nuyen apiece from Johnson A, 1000 nuyen apiece from Johnson B, and 2000 nuyen apiece from the manager himself.

Party Vans!

After that, the group decided to run the BTL-smuggling mission, at which point Cyrus is introduced to the party. Cyrus, Cain, and Dape go in one van with half the BTLs, while Kyra, Smite, and Incognito go in the other van with the rest. Ryu buys an ATV with his money and follows along as backup.

We ran the Cyrus-Cain-Dape one this time, and will handle Kyra, Smite, and Incognito next week.

All in all, was a fun session, although I'm surprised that the party didn't plug Smite and turn him in for the bounty after that bit of stupidity.

Swordguy
2009-09-05, 11:01 AM
Yup. Bored runner=fun times for the GM.

Sounds like the rest of your group has a good head on their collective shoulders, though. A) for not killing the idiot, thus keeping good feelings around the table, and B) for exploiting the situation well. Having two competitive runs in the same place at the same time is always a good trick (wait until they get REALLY popular and have loads of offers, then have them realize they've been hired to protect the same facility they have to blow up), getting paid three times for the effectively the same thing is good on both your part and their part, for setting it up and exploiting it intelligently, respectively.

Nicely done.

Of course, getting into the BTL-smuggling racket doesn't speak well of their intelligence. Trying to cross the Tir border with BTLs is a very low-survivability-ratio endeavor... :smallamused:

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-05, 01:08 PM
Of course, getting into the BTL-smuggling racket doesn't speak well of their intelligence. Trying to cross the Tir border with BTLs is a very low-survivability-ratio endeavor... :smallamused:Oh, really? Do tell.

No, seriously - I don't know this stuff. If that's the case, I probably went way too easy on the Cyrus-Cain-Dape group.

Raum
2009-09-05, 01:57 PM
Oh, really? Do tell.

No, seriously - I don't know this stuff. If that's the case, I probably went way too easy on the Cyrus-Cain-Dape group.Figure BTLs as more addictive than any modern drug with the added 'bonus' of killing their users in a few weeks or months of use / abuse.

But the real issue is the Tir itself. They really dislike strangers. Non-elves should expect to be followed everywhere...if they're even let in. Even visiting elves who have chosen life outside the Tir will be looked at with suspicion. And then there's the border control...better paranormal security than most corporations and their physical security is nothing to sneeze at. Remember, they've fought a fairly recent (and successful) war against California.

***One caveat, my memory is of older editions (mostly 2nd ed) and leaves many updates to history out.

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-06, 05:17 AM
I'm just gonna spoiler all this. Wall o' text and whatnot.

So, let's rewind things a bit, back to a couple of days after I first put on my nostalgia pants and started jonesing for Shadowrun...

After I mentioned it to him, a chummer of mine was wanting to play some Shadowrun, but this was still during the time period in which we weren't even sure there was going to be a game in the first place. He really wasn't wanting to GM a whole campaign, as he was quite tired of running games. However, he was willing to GM for a single adventure, just to give everyone else "a feel for it."

In fact, this was the guy who GMed the Shadowrun game back when I played, and I later found out that he actually still had my old character sheet ("Wow, I only purchased one rank for two skills, but bought an Edge of 6?").

However, given our group's occasional tendency for wackiness, and this guy's tendency to get irritated when the group starts going off-topic ("Guys? THE MISSION."), I thought that might make for some bad chemistry, so I initially turned him down. Last week, though, he asked me again.

"Sure," I replied, "Saturday work for you?"

Ryu's player said he was interested in playing, as did Cain's (and me, of course). The other players were either uninterested, busy Saturday, or unable to get here, and thus turned it down. It'd make for a small group, but potentially workable. I took a quick look at Briggs Jackson, a face-type I'd worked on, changed a couple of numbers around, and decided to go with it.

Saturday rolls around, and several hours before the session, Incognito's player asks me if he can drop by. We hang out, play some cards and whatnot. He whips out his PSP and complains at it as he plays Dissidia (and apologizes for it every time he swears), while I do some quick number-crunching on my character, off-handedly mentioning the session for that night.

He decides he might want to play, and starts alternating between transcribing the "Weapons Specialist" straight out of the book onto a character sheet and playing Dissidia, making little progress in either in the process.

Time passes. I choose to grab a quick bite before the GM is set to arrive. Strangely enough, however, none of the other players had appeared. I give them a quick call. Turns out that both of them had stuff come up, and wouldn't be able to come. :smalleek:

Of course, the GM was not very happy to find that out. Even with Incognito's player present, that still wasn't enough (another factor is that the character sheet he was "working" on was perhaps half-done at the time) for the adventure he had planned.

He calms down after a bit, and I spend the next hour or so recounting some of the Shadowrun C.L.U.E. files, which gets a few laughs out of him.

Well, at about 8:00 PM, Cain's player shows up. The GM's still a bit upset at Cain's player for bailing in the first place, but at least now there's at least a number he can work with.

Cain's player has already worked out his character for this game, a PhysAd named Chip. The GM looks it over and approves it, and my character as well. However, when he goes over Incognito's player's sheet, he is mildly surprised to see that "Mieu" has an Essence of 6. After discussing with the player the importance of cyber/bioware for a Shadowrunner, and how unoptimized the sample characters out of the book were, he gives him a hand with equipping his character with an appropriate amount of cyber/bioware (ends up with an Essence of 1.54, and that's only because he ran out of money).

The GM then asks us what our characters do. Luckily, I've had a few snippets of backstory brewing since I first conceptualized my character - Briggs is essentially a "B-movie" star, showing up in inaccurate and heavily-spun trideos of notable shadowruns. Chip's player used that as a hook, and suggested that his character was my character's bodyguard. The question then turns to Mieu's player.

"Err," he says, "I was discharged from the Army... for opening fire on the rest of my teammates."

"That's not the sort of thing that gets you discharged," the GM says, "that's the sort of thing that gets a bullet put in your head."

"Okay, there's holes in my backstory..."

"...and why would we be working with you, then?" I ask.

"...Because I'm a weapons specialist?"

I think the GM's annoyance with him was justified. :smallsigh:

It ends up being that Mieu knows us through a friend of a friend, and works at a library.

Anyway, the adventure starts, Briggs and Chip get a call, and meet Mr. Johnson at a restaurant, stuff about a 40-year-old disc, et cetera. I could go over this stuff with you, but it'd probably take up even more space.

Out-of-game, Ryu's player surprises us by showing up. He's got another Technomancer PC, this one going by the name of Darius.

Back in-game, Briggs and Chip decide to get some assistance on this run; Briggs will phone Darius, while Chip calls Mieu. When I talk to Darius, he's certainly willing to go along with us, earn some money and whatnot...

Chip has less luck. Mieu deliberately doesn't answer Chip's call. When Chip tries to leave a message, Mieu's player says that "the voice mailbox is full."

:smallannoyed:

Even after the GM and I explain that in 2070, your voice mailbox will never be full, ever, he still says that to Chip's player. He then turns to the GM, and says, "Okay, now, what's happening with me?"

The GM, of course, really didn't have anything for him - missing your opportunity to bite on the plot hook is one thing, but actively ignoring it in favor of not participating is an entirely different animal.

We proceed through the adventure a bit without him, until we get to a bit hearing about a concert to be held in the Barrens, at which point we decided that some backup would be appreciated. This time, Chip pays Mieu a personal visit, and this time, Mieu's player chooses to give us a hand.

After the bit with the concert, we start wrapping up for the night (although the adventure is far from over, it's about 1:00 AM or so, and the GM has to work in the morning). The following takes place...

Me: All right, then. Now that Darius has the data he's going to analyze, we drop Mieu off at her house and drive home.
Mieu's player: No, you don't.
Me: Wha-?
Mieu's player: You're not dropping me off.
Me: Why not?
Mieu's player: I'm not getting out of the car.
Me: Why not?
Mieu's player: Because I don't want to!
Me: Why not?
Mieu's player: I'm not getting out of the car.
Me: I'm pretty sure, if necessary, Chip could get you out of the car.
Mieu's player: I don't care!
Me: Why the hell not?
Chip's player: Dude, we're dropping you off because you don't live with us. I'm his bodyguard.
Mieu's player: Oh, okay.

Yeah... I'm starting to think that Mieu/Incognito's player might not be playing the right game here.

Thoughts?

Swordguy
2009-09-06, 11:00 AM
I'm just gonna spoiler all this. Wall o' text and whatnot.
...
Thoughts?

Keep him around. You've got your very own CLUE File in the making.

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-06, 02:12 PM
Keep him around. You've got your very own CLUE File in the making.Do I want my own CLUE file? :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, the guy seems to have a vision of Shadowrun that is perpendicular to the reality; his character concepts are possible, but they wouldn't live a week in 2070 Seattle.

On that note, it looks like Chip's player is going to run a campaign on Saturdays, once he can scrounge up some ideas. :smallsmile: Looks like Briggs might get to see some more play. :smallcool:

Swordguy
2009-09-07, 12:43 PM
Do I want my own CLUE file? :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, the guy seems to have a vision of Shadowrun that is perpendicular to the reality; his character concepts are possible, but they wouldn't live a week in 2070 Seattle.

On that note, it looks like Chip's player is going to run a campaign on Saturdays, once he can scrounge up some ideas. :smallsmile: Looks like Briggs might get to see some more play. :smallcool:

His character won't make it in any given date in Seattle, up to and including the present day. Shadowrun should be (and usually is) unforgiving to blatant stupidity.

Also, your PM that you sent me is blank. What's up?

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-09, 07:44 PM
Also, your PM that you sent me is blank. What's up?Was looking for your advice on the whole Tir situation.

Another example of that player's character concepts being somewhat short-lived. His "furry shaman" for the Friday game was originally conceptualized as a crime-fighting vigilante. In fact, that's why he started the first session trying to investigate gang activity (and then botched his roll). Like I said, I imagine that sort of thing is doable... just don't expect the character to live to Wednesday.

We're putting off the Friday game until next week, due to a combination of busy schedules, stress, and the fact that we STILL haven't read the entire core book. :smalleek:

We'll still prob'ly do the Saturday one, though.

comicshorse
2009-09-09, 09:25 PM
Ah the Tir. So many have tried, so many have died hideously :smallsmile:

Lycan 01
2009-09-09, 09:36 PM
Eek... Is Incognito one of those apathetic players that every GM, myself included, dreads? :smalleek:


You know, you make me want to play this game really badly... :smallannoyed: How often do they run pbp Shadowrun games on this site? I dunno if I could get a real life group together for it... Well... I know 3 people who could play, but we'd be lucky to get one game in every month or so... Although, I suppose if I tried I could find people for it. I'd just have to try really hard...

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-09, 09:59 PM
Eek... Is Incognito one of those apathetic players that every GM, myself included, dreads?Y'know, I'm not sure what kind of player Incognito is. :smalleek:

Lycan 01
2009-09-09, 10:02 PM
Haphazardly playing a PSP while he's supposed to be making his character? Not putting much thought or work into his character? Not paying attention to what's going on?


Yeah, sounds like an apathetic player to me...

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-09, 10:12 PM
Yeah, sounds like an apathetic player to me...Point taken... but when he does participate, it seems to be directed toward what he believes would be "interesting roleplay."

"You should take Combat Paralysis. It'd be interesting roleplay."

"I should desecrate the temple of Ehlonna and try and convert the people to 'Nerull-ism.' It'll be interesting roleplay."

"We should introduce Cain to the party as having put a cranial bomb in one of the other party members. It'll be interesting roleplay."

Lycan 01
2009-09-09, 10:21 PM
Interesting roleplaying with my groups usually involves somebody converting Kobolds into being followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, trying to convince a nun to have sex while zombies are beating down the front door to the church, or activating a bomb in one of the other player's skulls in order to avoid being ratted out for consorting with demons. (Games were DnD, CoC, and Dark Heresy, respectively...)

NPCMook
2009-09-09, 10:46 PM
The other day I was bored and made a "Kobold" in Shadowrun 4e, he's an interesting Concept, Kobold Rigger!

If you are wondering:
Human or Elf base with Surge III Changeling Quality:
Beak
Claws
Dermal Alteration: Dragon Skin
Low-Light Vision
Nasty Vibe
Neoteny
Vestigial Tail

Yep... Bored...

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-13, 03:42 AM
Had our Saturday game again, picking up where we left off...

Not too much to say, really - Incognito's player didn't show up, so that was one less thing to worry about. Kyra's player was there, though, and was permitted to roll up a character. She made a rigger with the help of Cain's player, but for the entirety of the session, failed to come up with a name for the character. We all threw suggestions at her, but she didn't like a single one of them. Anyway, we kinda-sorta failed the mission; the party pretty much just dropped the ball as a whole.

I did get a bit lucky, though; I managed to break the bad news to Mr. Johnson in such a way that didn't get a hit squad sent after us. :smalltongue:

We were feeling kinda down after that, until I thought to whip out the Shadowrun C.L.U.E. files. "Hey, at least we didn't mess it up that badly!" :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, the GM was just running that one adventure, so that's it for the Saturday game... or is it? (Dun dun DUN!!!) Turns out that the GM persuaded Cain's player to run a game. Cain's player intends to only have a select group playing for his game (mostly his old group, although he said I'll probably be playing in it as well), and that he's wanting to GM a "big heist," a la Ocean's Eleven and other such movies.

Was thinking I'd let you all know about it. :smallcool:

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-19, 06:37 PM
'kay, guys, ready? This one's a doozy.

Slight Change in the Roster...

Smite's player couldn't make it to last night's session, so we initially played him as an NPC. However, a friend of ours showed up and sat in on the session, and ended up "unofficially" playing the character, saving me some trouble. Cyrus' player also brought along a friend who sat in on the game.

Get Out of the Van!

I don't really remember what Incognito said to Kyra that got her player to say, "I push him out of the van," but his player got really upset when I said, "Okay, roll for it." Initially, Incognito's player decides he wants his character to pull out a grenade in response. After repeated discussion over why it would be a Bad Idea, he decides to simply resist instead, even spending an Edge on it. However, she still manages to forcibly eject him from the van.

After a brief OOC argument, the group decides to pick up Incognito again, at which point his player says, "Nope, I hide from you."

:smallsigh:

The party spots a helicopter heading toward them at this point. Incognito dives into a ditch and casts an ice sheet over himself to hide his thermal signature. Kyra drives the van while Smite hacks the helicopter and shuts off the sensors. The pilot shoots at the van, but when the party returns fire, he decides to retreat and call for backup. Smite intercepts the message and edits it so that it says, "I'm stealing this helicopter, ha ha ha," still signed by the pilot.

After that, Incognito sends a Watcher spirit to find Ryu in his ATV and bring Ryu to him. Ryu's player notes that his character arrives to see Incognito alone, with shell casings on the ground and neither the other party members nor their van in sight, and then proceeds to ask, "So, what happened?" to which Incognito does not reply. Rather than taser Incognito into oblivion, he bring him along to their destination.

At the Lake...

The two vans got to their destination first, a small lakeside resort. They do some scouting, and discovered their Arab contacts had a small place across the lake, and that the drop was supposed to go down at the center of the lake in a few hours.

It's a running joke in our group that everybody takes Incompetent: Pilot Watercraft, since boats are rarely necessary. Nonetheless, the party rents a small motorboat for the occasion. Cain summons a water spirit to scope the place out. The spirit reports back with an inordinate number of elves "fishing" on the lake, and that tethered to the boats were submerged containers, which the party (correctly) assumes to be firearms.

It's at about this point that Ryu and Incognito arrive on the scene, and the group begins to make their plan.

Cain instructs the spirit to cut the tethers on the boats and hide the containers so they can salvage them later.

Travelling on the motorboat themselves will be Cyrus, Cain, and Dape. Kyra sneaks around, keeping an eye out for trouble, Ryu hacks the elves' network to listen in on any conversations, and Incognito turns himself invisible, climbs a tree, and sets up his sporting rifle for sniping.

Their boat gets to the center of the lake, and they begin to make the drop.

More Uh-oh...

Incognito's player decides that now would be a good time for "character development." He starts talking about how his character is seeing things, demons and the like. Puzzled, the rest of the group continues trying to make the drop... until Incognito says, "I shoot at Cain."

:smallannoyed:

Luckily for Cain, he glitches his roll, instead hitting the boat. More OOC arguing ensues, with Incognito's player continually referencing his character's "backstory," which I've yet to see a single word of. Cain wisely decides to claim to the Arabs that Incognito is not with them. The deal made, the trio makes it back to shore before their boat sinks, and Cyrus proceeds to punch the tar out of Incognito, taking a bullet from him in the process. Rather than kill him, though, Cyrus uses his last punch to knock Incognito out, at which point they bind him up quite thoroughly and haul him into the van.

Back to Seattle...

In the process of the mission, the group also learned that Mr. Johnson had screwed the party over. When they make it back to Seattle, they set up a meeting with him to negotiate some extra money. It is quite a success.

Meanwhile, Cain and Cyrus take the still-unconcious Incognito to a street doc. Cain secretly pays the doc to discreetly insert some kink bombs while Incognito is under the knife.

After Incognito wakes up, Cain informs him that he wants to be compensated for the attempt on his life; if he can't pay it, Incognito will essentially become Hellen Keller, minus the sense of touch. Incognito intially refuses, at which point Cain blows one of the bombs, deafening him. Incognito's player becomes very upset over it, and starts complaining that Cain's player "ruined his character."

After another OOC argument, they finally decide that Incognito retroactively agreed to Cain's demands, and thus did not lose his hearing.

Wrapping It Up

It's at about this point that we ended the session, and I told the players that this was the last Shadowrun session I'd be running for a while, since my goal was just to get them introduced to the game, and that we'd be running D&D next week, and that Incognito's player was not invited, thank-you-very-much.

Almost everybody left; it was just me, Ryu's player, Cain's player, and the friend who rolled for Smite. We talked about some World of Darkness stuff, and on separate occasions, expressed our annoyance at Incognito's player.

Curris
2009-09-20, 04:52 AM
This is a good thread. More Shadowrun is always appreciated. . . .

A few words of advice though.

I Love the CLUE Files. Most everyone does. Do be wary, however, of giving your players the full dose of humor. Most of your party and friends seem like well-rounded, teamworking players. However, some people take the CLUE Files as targets to surpass, and Immediately think they'll blow their cool factor through the roof. "Dude, 120kg of C4! Perfect mission, etc." Funny is good, but make sure the players understand that Clue Files are the results of mission disasters. . .

But Incognito's guy is getting me worried. Dnd has it's fun and games when Character 1 hits character 2. I mean, Healing is plentiful in DnD, and the people are outright heroes. But Shadowrun? Attempting to put bullets in allies heads usually means a shortage of allies, one way or another. I applaud your player's idea with the kink bomb idea. . . Remember, in SR, you get ~ 10 hitpoints. So does everyone else. And after 50 missions, you'll still have ~ 10 hitpoints. . .

Either 1, Incognito's player is bored, (But your group otherwise seems ok, so I doubt it) or 2 (he wants more attention. Even negative attention is attention.) It's late, and I don't want to unfairly judge someone I've never met, and of course, I don't want to chase off new SR players, but I'm certain he isn't quite up to speed on the theme of the game. Crime-fighting superhero? Possible, but maybe just be better to play it as LoneStar Detective or CyberCrime specialist. Shadowrun plays a lot closer to Metal Gear Solid and Mission Impossible than it does to Gurps, M&M, D&D, or even CP2020.

One other thing to point out, is USE THOSE ALLERGIES. It seems a lot of your characters are allergic. Maybe to them, it's free points, but really, in a day and age of 2070, Gold, silver, and wool are everywhere. Gold and Silver are in jewelry (pretty common, spinners & rims) and circuitry (EVERYWHERE).

Wool is less common, but still. Give him a coughing fit once in a while. make them earn those build points. . .

Anyway, long text aside, You seem to be doing a great job, and I'm eager to hear more, (Not without some trepidation, of course).

Lycan 01
2009-09-20, 02:25 PM
That sounded like an awesome game, except for Incognito's actions. He could have very easily screwed the whole game up, and for no reason. I would have disregarded the backstory stuff, and just said "No, you don't" in that situation. If a player pulls something major like that on me, I say no. It has happened before, where a DnD player revealed he was part of a dark cult, and made his character commit suicide so he could become an even more powerful spirit form of himself. I stared at him for a few seconds, and then said told him that since we'd never discussed ANYTHING like that in his background, there was no way I'd allow that to fly.

I'd suggest you have a talk with Incognito. He sounds like he's just playing because its something to do, not because its fun and he wants to play together with the other players. This sort of situation needs to be resolved off the table, especially if it caused 3 arguements at the table in one session... :smallannoyed:

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-20, 10:10 PM
Funny is good, but make sure the players understand that Clue Files are the results of mission disasters...I've made a point of explaining this to the players before I'd ever shown them the CLUE files.


I applaud your player's idea with the kink bomb idea...Actually, one of the players mentioned something... could a mage not repair said deafness with a heal spell?


Either 1, Incognito's player is bored (but your group otherwise seems ok, so I doubt it), or 2, he wants more attention (even negative attention is attention).That second one sounds a lot more likely.


One other thing to point out, is USE THOSE ALLERGIES.I certainly intend to.


I would have disregarded the backstory stuff, and just said "No, you don't" in that situation.I was pretty tired at the time; that's probably what I would've done if I was a little more awake.


This sort of situation needs to be resolved off the table, especially if it caused 3 arguments at the table in one session...Good point; I don't think we'll be gaming with him again, though. I already told him not to come to our D&D game.

Anyway... the Saturday game! :smallbiggrin:

Keep in mind, Cain's player is running this. He's approving old characters for it, which means I could've used my old character from the plane heist, but I decided against it.

The PCs...

Slade, human street samurai. Very heavily cybered, just a fraction of Essence left. A very experienced character, lives in the Redmond Barrens. Is a supporter of the Crimson Crush, and has a contact in the Mafia.

Kronz, troll street samurai. Uses a bow and arrow. Surprisingly, all of the modifications to his body are bioware. This supposedly allowed him to survive a turn to goo spell "back in the day." Not very charismatic, but of average intelligence. Lives with Slade.

Darius, human technomancer. Parents killed by gangsters, he had to make his own way in the world. Has a working knowledge of security systems, procedures, and operating systems.

Silverscreen, human face, my character. When not running the shadows, he acts in "B-movie" trids about Shadowruns that typically get 80% of the details wrong.

Opening

Slade's "Mafia princess" gives him a call, sets up a meeting. At the meeting, she reveals that she has a mission for him. She wants some specific paydata, data that will likely make or break a career. He apparently owes her a hefty sum anyway, and if he'll do this mission for her, she'll just ignore the debt. Of course, if he can scrounge up a team to aid him, they'll be rewarded for their efforts (to the tune of 15,000 nuyen).

The first part of the mission is to find where certain information is hidden on a secret Ares facility. The data with the location of said facility is likely hidden on a database in their bean-counting department. In other words, it's likely to start out as a low-and-slow, and then develop into a smash-and-grab.

Anyway, it takes a day or two in-game to get the group together, and after that, we discuss how we're going to do this.

Working it Out

Our group decides to infiltrate the accounting building. Darius discovers an open management-level position in security. We buy up some high-level fake SINs and a new van, and then use our contacts to give the new personas good references, and then Silverscreen signs up for the position.

One job interview later, and "Andrew Zimmerman III" is the new manager of security at the accounting division. The next day, Silverscreen brings in Darius ("Al") and Slade ("Freeman") as paid consultants (Slade as a physical security consultant, and Darius as a Matrix security consultant). Oh, and Kronz is posing as my driver.

While Slade investigates a mysteriously-malfunctioning back door, and Darius looks at their Matrix security, Silverscreen obtains official temporary security clearance for them.

Slade smells a lie when the tech guy at the door informs him that it'll be three days before a replacement part can be obtained. He finds out that the guy is a shadowrunner, and that the guy's team is there for a different reason entirely. After that, we discuss it amongst ourselves, and realize that it's likely that much of the rest of the security team is also made up of shadowrunners. Darius and Silverscreen decide to head down to the server cathedral and get the paydata. It's at this point that Kronz gives us an IM, telling us that he spotted someone sneaking around in the parking lot. Slade takes off for the parking lot.

Lockdown!

Once we're in the "warehouse of servers," the place is suddenly hit with a lockdown; however, this turns out to be to our advantage, since we're right next to the servers. Darius hacks the firewalls and steals the data without much trouble, spoofing his datatrail quite thoroughly.

On the other hand, when the lockdown begins for Slade, he spots the shadowy figure on the run, and smashes through the second-floor window to pursue him. He chases him into a maze of filing cabinets, but loses him there. One of the cabinets is open, a single file pilfered...

It's at this point that Kronz spots a car parked in the lot, the driver smoking inside. One of the doors opens and closes, but Kronz didn't see anyone getting in or out, and at this point, realizes that something is up. He calls Slade over, then guns the engine and readies to ram the car. The driver seems shocked for a few seconds, but at the last moment reveals himself to be a mage by throwing up a wall of force. The wall of force is just enough to bring the van to a halt, but it was clearly overcast, judging by the now-bleeding driver.

Slade gets to Kronz as the car starts up and begins driving out. Since Slade is a marginally-better driver, he takes the wheel. They manage to take out two of the tires, but the car still gets far enough away for the inhabitants to abandon it before Slade and Kronz can get to it.

Silverscreen and Darius take a little longer to escape from the building, having to talk their way out. Once we're safely away, Daruis detonates his databomb that wipes our fake SINs, recommendations, etc., and that's it for the session.

Lycan 01
2009-09-20, 10:52 PM
WHY MUST YOU TORTURE ME WITH THESE AWESOME STORIES?! :smallbiggrin:


Seriously, you keep making me want to play this game... :smallannoyed:

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-20, 10:55 PM
WHY MUST YOU TORTURE ME WITH THESE AWESOME STORIES?!'Cuz it's fuuun. :smalltongue:


Seriously, you keep making me want to play this game...Awwwww... :smalltongue:

I feel for ya, man.

Curris
2009-09-20, 11:39 PM
I love it when two teams are on site at the same time. Going for the same target is fun, and so are different objectives as well. . . Nicely done.

Also, maybe that bit about the mage-driver throwing force walls (and invisibility) around convinced the party that they need some mojo themselves. . .

Sounds like fun all around.

Oh, and I remembered what I wanted to tell you yesterday. Hackers are an everpresent threat in the Matrix. Corps, security, and powers that be plan for them, just as they would for mages, and people with heavy artillery.

That said, Technomancers are still very rare. In fact, the SR 4th supplement Emergence just overflows with how corps are abducting (and experimenting on) technomancers. They are new, they are strange, racist and bigotry abounds. Witchhunts may be out for these 'mutants'. Some corps are even setting up 'datasteal' runs to lure technomancers out of the woodwork, before capturing them for their own use. . .

Now if a hacker steals your identity, he needs skills & training, and thousand of Nuyen of gear. He can be caught, and his CyberComm provides the proof of his crime. Technomancers, though, they THINK and stuff happens. They could be your friend, your neighbor, they could be Robbing You Right Now. Some people think they are Otaku -2, or aliens, or mutants, or AI meatpuppets. . . Any of which may make people excrete masonry. . .

Even mages had to deal with this back in the day. But now, if a mage commits a crime, other mages can ID him. Astral signature, and so forth.

Scary stuff. Depending on how you (Or Cain's Player) want to play it, they may want to keep their technomancer side cleverly concealed.

Tehnar
2009-09-21, 06:03 AM
A question to all well versed shadowrunners: How does (mechanical) character improvement work? Are you satisfied with progression of abilities as time goes on?

Zephraim
2009-09-21, 07:09 AM
Speaking of Technomancers, I haven't been able to find anything on how they interact with AR. Do they need to carry a commlink & glasses for that (a basic high signal comm might still be useful due to low signal value of Living Persona and to use for file storage).

Timeras
2009-09-21, 10:06 AM
A question to all well versed shadowrunners: How does (mechanical) character improvement work? Are you satisfied with progression of abilities as time goes on?

After each run the Characters are awardes Karma points. These can be spent to improve attributes and skills (or learn new skills).
I like it, because you can have a steady progression but do not become insanely powerfull afer a few runs.

Curris
2009-09-23, 06:49 PM
Zeraphim, no Technomancers do not need a commlink, or AR goggles/gloves to interact. They can see the matrix AR, and VR, even if totally nude, without gear. It's all in their heads. . . They are Neo, they see the code, in the air, and all around.

Most do carry a commlink anyway, if only to not draw suspicion.

Tehnar. At character creation, you are fairly powerful (or versatile). You have a lot of customizing and tweaking, and adjusting. Your GM may scale this up or down as appropriate.

During play however, you gain power much more slowly. Let's say you earn ~ 4-6 karma for a good run, and ~ 2 karma for a bad run. (A really bad runs earns you dead). As your skills (& attributes) get higher, they also get more and more expensive to improve. Ergo, you actually slow down your powerup progression, if you focus in a few areas. Diversely skilled people may be adding skills and attributes more rapidly, but again, at the cost of focused direction. Good news, is that this isn't DnD, versatility and "multi-classing" methodologies are actually a fair approach. Just whatever suits your playstyle.

Rapid boons can still occur if your character falls into a pile of money (for cyber, gear, or other possessions) or gets magically initiated for a choice of a few neat tricks. . .

Short story, yes, you're a bit of a power speeder, right out of the gate, then during play, you walk. But's it's ok, because you still have a lot to customize and tweak, and now you're focusing on runs & missions, and less about improvement. Improvement occurs at a decent pace, because you are still quite powerful, and money goes a longer way in game, than in character creation. (No availability caps. . .)

(Coming from a 3rd edition mindset)

Slade
2009-09-29, 04:26 AM
Slade here.

Was poking in to see what you guys think of the game. Looking forward to see how Thecountalucard's posts Monday's (9/28/09) game.

God I hate smash and grabs. Especially at AAA top secret research facilities. F*ckin Double digit firewalls.... :furious:

Addendum:
I was the GM for the game with the disk. It was "On the Run" intro adventure. Simple, easy, and I had played in it once, and ran it twice BEFORE the group mentioned above.

But yea, they dropped the ball. Played too cautiously, and when given the McGuffen on a silver platter, Darius bailed. Oh well, learn from your mistakes chummers.

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-29, 11:11 AM
Yep, time for an update... we were spending Edge like crazy in this one, but there were a couple of situations where we actually burned Edge.

More PCs...

Motoko, human hacker, with enough cyber/bioware to also function as a street sam.

(Can't remember name), elf wolf shaman, is the face of a Tachikoma-manufacturing operation.

Longtooth, his apprentice.

Intro

Slade watches our destination, the secret Ares facility. Essentially a normal-sized building above ground, with a massive underground complex below. Kinda like Resident Evil, but hopefully without the zombies. To "test" the place, Slade tosses a feral cat over the fence. When it just up and disappears, he decides the group should have some magical backup, hence the shaman and his apprentice. He also writes up a list of equipment we'll likely need, and then leaves it to Kronz and me to get it. Thermite, monofilament chainsaw, gecko gloves... no, there's nothing suspicious about this at all!

He continues to watch the place; after all, it'd suck if the other team beat us there, now wouldn't it? :smalltongue:

Basically, the plan is that first the shaman will try to banish any spirits present, then Ryu will crash the facility's networks, and then Kronz, Slade, and the shaman start taking people out (non-lethally, if possible); once the area is secure, Motoko, Slade, Kronz, and the shaman will descend down the elevator shaft in to the underground complex, grab the data we need. Ryu and Silverscreen will keep the truck's engine running and maintain communications.

Opening Move

We swing by in the racing truck (the van doesn't have off-road, I think), and the shaman begins his assensing, only to notice a beast spirit (looking uncomfortably-similar to a dragon) lurking atop the building. No wonder the cat just disappeared! Needing just a teensy bit more dakka, he and Longtooth team up to banish the thing, sending it back from whence it came.

Slade and Motoko (Motoko being in a Tachikoma) enter from the roof, while Kronz knocks out a guard, and then he and the shaman (also in a Tachikoma) make their own door. Slade is continuously urging everyone to try to keep lethality to a minimum, mind you. Anyway, this attracts the attention of two guards, one of which hurls a grenade at Kronz. Surprisingly, Kronz only takes one box of stun damage from it, and then the Tachikoma blasts the guards with its machine guns. There's also a bit of cyber stuff as Ryu knocks out all the networks and Motoko fights a computer program.

Down the Rabbit Hole

Building secured, they decide to go down the elevator shaft. When the doors open, the receptionist at the bottom is a half-second from the panic button when Slade knocks her out (because multiple Initiative Passes are awesome). Motoko hacks her commlink, and it turns out the underground part of the facility inhibits wireless networks. Motoko hacks the mainframe as well, but has to burn an Edge to do so. From there, she's pretty much able to open and close every door in the place, regulate the content of the air, set off the autoturrets, control the security cameras, and a variety of other jerkish moves.

With three branches in the building (bioweapons, cyber, and some genetics thing with hybrid animals), the group chooses to lock them all off and raise the CO2 content of each to the point where the people inside are knocked out. Unfortunately, a couple of Firewatch notice the grogginess and don their helmets. They don't listen to Slade's attempts to reason with them (because of a critical glitch), and release a spirit of fire whose Force is even higher than that of the beast spirit before. The shaman burns an Edge to banish the thing.

The Firewatch guy who released the spirit had taken a bunch of autoturret to the face in the process, but after releasing the spirit, he just stands there for a bit before curling up in a fetal position. It's then we realize that the sneaky-sneak person from the other shadowrunning team is present. After some threats and the realization that we're working by proxy for the same people, Slade makes a deal with her for the data.

That's about where the session ended. You'll notice Silverscreen really didn't do too much. That's fine. I'm a face. If I build my character with seventy bullets, and at the end I've only got sixty-nine of them left, that means I used one too many.

Also, since the underground facility blocked off the wireless networks, that means that Ryu and Silverscreen will likely be going down after them at the beginning of the next session.

Slade
2009-09-29, 11:44 AM
Yup, and after the game I verified with the GM that EVERYONE is in the "hive" so that no gun bunny hi-jinks happen outside. Even the Tachi's are down here. Our rigger contact/buddy would be pissed if they got destroyed.

I know the vehicles might get destroyed or rigged to blow up, but we can go over them with a fine tooth comb, in the matrix and astrally, so we should be fine.

If they seal us in, we have enough Thermite, mono-chainsaws, and Gecko gloves that we can cut ourselves out. Their spell slinger can send spirits at us, our 2 spell slingers can get rid of them. In short, we are safer down here.

No, the bigger worry is that the J might screw us over. The presence of an another shadow runner team make me nervous. But I have a plan for that too.

Lost Demiurge
2009-09-29, 12:33 PM
Short story, yes, you're a bit of a power speeder, right out of the gate, then during play, you walk. But's it's ok, because you still have a lot to customize and tweak, and now you're focusing on runs & missions, and less about improvement. Improvement occurs at a decent pace, because you are still quite powerful, and money goes a longer way in game, than in character creation. (No availability caps. . .)

(Coming from a 3rd edition mindset)

The glorious thing about Shadowrun, is that no matter how much karma you put on a character, there's still SOME way to challenge them. Very few characters can ignore sniper rounds to the head. And the ones that can usually have other things to worry about it.

It also means that there's not a huge disparity between starting characters and ones that have been around a few games. As long as folks aren't directly competing for niches in the group, starting characters can usually find some way to participate that helps out the more experienced runners.

Slade
2009-10-01, 02:44 AM
Hey Lycan, or anyone else for that matter, you tell me how to do P-n-P Shadowrun online, I'll run it. Or Java chat, or just good old play by post.

Seriously. :biggrin:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/shadowrun_TRWHQ/

Home page for it.

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-06, 04:55 PM
Had a fun session last night, but I'm too busy being busy to post the juicy, space-laser-y details. If Slade wants to, that's fine, but otherwise I'll try and get around to this tomorrow.

karnokoto
2009-10-06, 11:16 PM
Shadowrun isn't supposed to be one of those settings where your players should grow very attached to their characters- its meant to be gritty, dark and mean.
I'm not an advocate of the 'evil DM' but this is one setting where you really need to put the fear of god into your PCs. It makes it more real- this is a setting where if you aren't sharp as a razor, or just very unlucky, you could very well die from a single bullet. Its quite easy.
Don't set up a long storyline. Set up for 6-8 5hr sessions maximum. Don't aim to kill PCs, but have no qualms about it either. Your NPCs should be realistic and smart. Gangs should have a very real presence. The cops are crooked, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Make sure your PCs buy platinum doc wagon contracts if they want to survive.
I'm not sure if you've ever read Transmetropolitan, but thats the kind of feel I like to put into my Shadowrun sessions. Its messed up, but fun.

One other thing- try to steer your PCs away from making mages. The rules are pretty fuzzy, all the problems you give your players will pretty much be 'solved' with 2L Mana Bolts/Acid Waves staged up to 18D Mana Bolts and Acid Waves.
It may kill the mage, sure, but there are ways to get around the bad rolls for resisting the stun.

BobVosh
2009-10-07, 03:53 AM
Awwwww... :smalltongue:

I feel for ya, man.

Feel no mercy! He tortured me with his Call of Cthulhu stories.

Lycan 01
2009-10-07, 01:07 PM
Feel no mercy! He tortured me with his Call of Cthulhu stories.

Remind me which ones? :smallconfused: I forget what tales I've told and which ones I've never gotten around to writing. Actually, I think the best game I ever ran (which game one player a temporary fear of the dark, and left another one with nightmares for days) has yet to be posted up and described on here. :smallbiggrin:



Sounds like fun, Alucard. I take it that group reeeeeally likes Ghost in the Shell? :smalltongue:

*scratches chin*

How often does the pbp board here do Shadowrun games?

Lost Demiurge
2009-10-07, 01:23 PM
Shadowrun isn't supposed to be one of those settings where your players should grow very attached to their characters- its meant to be gritty, dark and mean.
I'm not an advocate of the 'evil DM' but this is one setting where you really need to put the fear of god into your PCs. It makes it more real- this is a setting where if you aren't sharp as a razor, or just very unlucky, you could very well die from a single bullet. Its quite easy.
Don't set up a long storyline. Set up for 6-8 5hr sessions maximum. Don't aim to kill PCs, but have no qualms about it either. Your NPCs should be realistic and smart. Gangs should have a very real presence. The cops are crooked, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Make sure your PCs buy platinum doc wagon contracts if they want to survive.
I'm not sure if you've ever read Transmetropolitan, but thats the kind of feel I like to put into my Shadowrun sessions. Its messed up, but fun.

One other thing- try to steer your PCs away from making mages. The rules are pretty fuzzy, all the problems you give your players will pretty much be 'solved' with 2L Mana Bolts/Acid Waves staged up to 18D Mana Bolts and Acid Waves.
It may kill the mage, sure, but there are ways to get around the bad rolls for resisting the stun.

See, now... I'd disagree with this assessment.

The Shadowrun setting is pretty much meant to be whatever you make of it. For some people this is Grim n' Gritty, for others it's Transmetropolitan. (Which no, I wouldn't call grim n' gritty, just dystopic.) For still others, it's like Ghost in the Shell, a transhuman science fantasy.

I find that it's best to let the PC's figure out which tone they like best through their actions. If they act all murdery and paranoid, increase the noir factor. If they go "WOW!" at things like dragons taking the podium on professional symposium speeches, the ability to buy nanotattoos, and blimp-drones, then play up the posthumanism. Try a couple of different styles, and see what works. Throw stuff at the wall and see if it sticks.

If you want to hammer home the difficulties of the setting, the first gunfight where someone gets shot usually takes care of that. Players will quickly realize that bullets HURT, and being an armored troll isn't like playing on easy mode anymore.

Also, discouraging mages? No, no, no. If people want to try wearing the wizard hat, let'em. The first time they suck a drain roll on a big spell, they'll realize that there's more to playing them than endless fireballs and acid waves. Besides, then you can throw in more magical stuff, and they'll have to learn how to deal with THAT.

And y'know, the first time a loud fireball draws enemy attention and a few Lone Star cruisers show up, THEN you can be merciless. Just because you're being fair, doesn't mean that the world won't punish stupidity.

Finally, one more comment. Killing PC's is damn hard, if you're being a fair GM and they're reasonably smart and cautious. Remember, they can permanently burn edge to keep alive in the event of a PC death. You can and should let the PC in question survive no matter what the implausibility of it, when they do this.

BobVosh
2009-10-07, 02:12 PM
Remind me which ones? :smallconfused: I forget what tales I've told and which ones I've never gotten around to writing. Actually, I think the best game I ever ran (which game one player a temporary fear of the dark, and left another one with nightmares for days) has yet to be posted up and described on here. :smallbiggrin:

Quite a few of em. However my favorite is still the story where the guy tries to tackle pyramidhead. Then gets pissed when PH WTFPWNS him.

EleventhHour
2009-10-07, 02:47 PM
How often does the pbp board here do Shadowrun games?

Not often. And when they do come up, it's normally 4E.


(*pokes 3E books* :smallfrown:)

Lycan 01
2009-10-07, 03:57 PM
Quite a few of em. However my favorite is still the story where the guy tries to tackle pyramidhead. Then gets pissed when PH WTFPWNS him.

That was a chick, actually. And she quit the group after that game. :smalltongue:



Hm. Well, if I ever pick up Shadowrun, I'd probably end up GMing it rather than playing it. And since all my RL RPG groups have fallen through, I suppose I could always GM on here. But that's just a passing thought...

kjones
2009-10-07, 04:17 PM
See, now... I'd disagree with this assessment.

The Shadowrun setting is pretty much meant to be whatever you make of it. For some people this is Grim n' Gritty, for others it's Transmetropolitan. (Which no, I wouldn't call grim n' gritty, just dystopic.) For still others, it's like Ghost in the Shell, a transhuman science fantasy.

I find that it's best to let the PC's figure out which tone they like best through their actions. If they act all murdery and paranoid, increase the noir factor. If they go "WOW!" at things like dragons taking the podium on professional symposium speeches, the ability to buy nanotattoos, and blimp-drones, then play up the posthumanism. Try a couple of different styles, and see what works. Throw stuff at the wall and see if it sticks.

If you want to hammer home the difficulties of the setting, the first gunfight where someone gets shot usually takes care of that. Players will quickly realize that bullets HURT, and being an armored troll isn't like playing on easy mode anymore.

Also, discouraging mages? No, no, no. If people want to try wearing the wizard hat, let'em. The first time they suck a drain roll on a big spell, they'll realize that there's more to playing them than endless fireballs and acid waves. Besides, then you can throw in more magical stuff, and they'll have to learn how to deal with THAT.

And y'know, the first time a loud fireball draws enemy attention and a few Lone Star cruisers show up, THEN you can be merciless. Just because you're being fair, doesn't mean that the world won't punish stupidity.

Finally, one more comment. Killing PC's is damn hard, if you're being a fair GM and they're reasonably smart and cautious. Remember, they can permanently burn edge to keep alive in the event of a PC death. You can and should let the PC in question survive no matter what the implausibility of it, when they do this.

Yeah, this. The system is versatile enough to support more than one type of game, and while characters are certainly vulnerable, killing them for good is not quite as simple as all that.

EleventhHour
2009-10-07, 04:36 PM
Hm. Well, if I ever pick up Shadowrun, I'd probably end up GMing it rather than playing it. And since all my RL RPG groups have fallen through, I suppose I could always GM on here. But that's just a passing thought...

Which edition would you run? :smallbiggrin:

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-07, 05:19 PM
I've put this off long enough, I think - on to the session!

For the first part, it was pretty much quick looting before we scamper out of there. We found a couple of surprises, though; a humanoid drone with a unique synthetic skin good enough to fool mages, and multiple sets of delta-grade cyberware (Wired Reflexes 2, IIRC).

We check our cars for bombs, spirits, and the like, and then take off before a response team can launch. I end up driving the van, simply because my driving skill is one higher than Kronz. Some helicopters start pursuing us, but Slade on his own is enough to take care of both. We end up having to dodge some riot vehicles (taken care of by the shaman, spirits, and spending a couple of Edges) and an orbital laser (taken care of by Motoko and Darius, each burning multiple Edges).

I only had to make one skill roll, which I had to spend Edge on, but again, I'm a face; I really wasn't expecting to do much.

BobVosh
2009-10-07, 05:32 PM
Which edition would you run? :smallbiggrin:

You'll never get to play your 3e! People just like wireless, also no net time is a big selling point.

Lycan 01
2009-10-07, 06:07 PM
Hm... I'd probably run whatever copy I can get my hands on. So more than likely, 4e. That's all I ever see in stores... Sorry. :smallfrown:

But again, its unlikely I'll be picking up Shadowrun anytime soon. :smalltongue:

Slade
2009-10-12, 10:17 AM
Jeez, a week late on my updates...

"Some helicopters start pursuing us, but Slade on his own is enough to take care of both."
Well, this deserves a bit more explaining. Thanks to chameleon coated armor and an anti tank rifle (A Barret sniper rifle out of Arsenal, shooting APDS rounds giving the bullets a -8 AP rating) and a hellagood stealth check, I was able to shoot down the lightly armored helicopters.

The two Ares Citymasters on the other hand where a real bitch. Kronz, packing a rail cannon, shot one on a dead hit, and it only went to half damage. Rail guns, if you don't remember, half Armor then have AP on top of that...

Which meant, my sniper rifle wasn't going to do squat. So, I drop it, and take off after the Citymasters. The shaman's force 7 beasty spirit ate everyone in side, but I went in anyways. It left 1 guy alive, before the spirit was meleed out of existence, so I put the driver of the Citymaster out of his misery.

Afterwards, Motoko and Darius took over an Ares owned orbital satellite, and to cover our tracks, inserted a Data Bomb too wipe the satellites OS. Then I hit on an Idea: have the satellite course correct... in to the ZOG (The Zürich Orbital Bank, home of the most powerful a$$holes in Shadowrun).

I had no problems believing that the ZOG would ever come under any kind of threat, but we hedging our bets that the ZOG would vaporize the satellite. And it did; our asses were covered.

The GM was kind enough (meaning: he didn't want to d*ck with it) to let us sell our swag netting us a cool 299,000k Nuyen, each.

I sprung for massive block party with my Crimson Crush homies, with real meat and hot dogs, and everyone got hammered. After that, I started looking for an Alpha grade Superthyroid Gland...

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-12, 11:22 PM
The GM ran the Food Fight adventure tonight, since Slade hadn't played it before. It was just Silverscreen and Slade, but we did well enough; then again, we're talking twenty-karma-and-sixty-plus-karma shadowrunners here. Slade knocks some of them out while I use a called shot and multiple rounds of aiming to blow a gunman's hand off. I was pretty persuasive, too...

"Drop your weapons or the rest of you will get disarmed!"

Anyway, the CEO's actions didn't sit well with Slade, so we go up to Cozy's house with our guns hidden; we get frisked, but they don't find our hidden pistols. Slade was pretty ticked as he talked to the CEO, leading to him calling the guards on us on our way out. They might've been a tough fight, but we rolled fairly well, and proceeded to knock them out. However, hearing more guards coming, we doffed our trenchcoats and put them on the stunned guards before propping them up against the wall so that the guards wasted time opening fire on their allies while we sneak attacked them in our chameleon suits. We used a thermite bar to enter Cozy's panic room, where Slade proceeded to reduce the CEO of a minicorporation into red toothpaste.

After that, three months passed in-game. My movie came out, and was a smashing success. Brutus (a rigger from past games with the old gaming group, now the producer of the oft-mentioned Tachikomas) asked a favor of Kronz, seeking his assistance in procuring a special lens from an observatory in Hawaii. It's not long before the rest of the party gets involved in it. We get promised ten thousand nuyen just for the initial part; Brutus still needs other parts.

Slade's player guesses out-of-character that Brutus is wanting to build his own orbital laser, since we had sent him a copy of the plans stolen from the computer on the orbital laser that got blammed.

So, yeah, headed to Hawaii, gonna be a low-and-slow.

Slade
2009-10-17, 01:10 AM
Well, my online Shadowrun game is off and running. I have:

A troll vampire who hits harder than panther cannons,
A metasapient DI (that's one of them AI's),
A genetically engineered bioware using Face.

They are going through On the run, my favorite intro adventure.

So far, using stealth, they have gotten a hold of Nabo's commlink.
Anyone here have Ideas for what kind of music Nabo is?

Tehnar
2009-10-18, 10:44 AM
I'd like to chime in with a play report. I am playing in the online game Slade is running, and this is my first time playing Shadowrun. Ill probably go on a tangent about things I like and my thought on Shadowrun so bear with me. I mostly play DnD so I will compare it to that.

Starting with character creation. Its complicated, but that doesn't mean its bad, just that it takes some time. There are many cool options that you can choose to flesh out your character. Contacts are such a great idea, I wonder why no one implemented them in other games. As I was reading through the book I decided on character that is a mix between a secret agent / covert ops specialist and James Bond. Thus was born Mark Bores, focused on influence, stealth and with some lockpicking / pistols on the side. Also came up with a short background.

Hans Jurgen has no parents. Around 2035-40 Saeder-Krupp's genetist team thought they stumbled apon a telepathy gene and managed to convince the managment it was worth pursuing. Generations of in-vitro fetuses have been created only to die from brain tumors or other complications, most still born. Hans, the 114th generation was one of the dozen or so attempts that reached puberty. The babies were trained for espionage, inflitration and intelligence gathering as their creators waited for the telepathy complex to kick in near the end of puberty. Unfortunately for Hans the telepathy complex either remained dormant or never worked in the first place. As he reached the age where the gene should have activated but he couldn't produce viable results, he begun to hear rumors about the termination of the project along with the unfunctioning subjects. Hans started to plan a escape and the crash of '64 allowed that opportunity. Escaping first to Japan and from there to Seattle he used his training to keep ahead of Saeder-Krupp's agents along with the facial reconstruction he assumed the identity of Mark Bores, a bastard son of a rich corporate director, living off his fathers allowance while enjoying life. He is looking for a way to mess up Saeder - Krupp's plan and for information what happened to the rest of his family (the genetically engineered children).

Since we are playing a module Ill keep this spoilered


So Mark is clubbing when a call from his fixer comes (love those contacts) that someone is paying for a data retrieval job. So Mark leaves the party, hops onto his Mirage and heads for the Barrens to find a building with a satellite uplink and his contact there is a man called Deimos, who is in a wheelchair. He tells Mark that he has a team on the job, but they might need help, as they are "as smooth as a sandpaper dildo". Mark agrees to meet with the team and negotiate his fee with them. To himself he thinks this Deimos guy (a fake name as any) is looking for some serious revenge on someone and he should be careful.

Meeting up with the team in another club goes smoothly, though they are a strange bunch. Only one, Mallus, a large troll with what to appear to be claws is there to meet him, while the hacker/decker is attending the meeting via commlink. They explain to him that first part of the job is to find a rocker named Nabo, who was offered the data disk. The first part of the job is to find Nabo's commlink and see who is offering the disk. Mark checks with his contacts and finds out that Nabo is having a concert in the barrens tonight.

After changing into appropriate clothes for a rock/metal/rap concert, he meets up with Mallus at the warehouse where to concert is taking place. After scouting the place and several discarded plans later (which included climbing on the roof, or punching through the wall), Mark decides to scout the place out from inside. Bribing a guard to let him in (its mostly orks there), and convincing other guards that he is European tour promoter, Mark finds himself backstage. The door to Nabo's dressing room is slightly ajar, and there he sees a golden commlink on the desk. There is a guard in the room as well, but he is distracted with drugs and a groupie. Mark decides to sneak in and grab the disk, barely managing to pull it off thanks to edge. I must say I love the concept of edge/luck, and this is the best implementation of a luck mechanic that I have seen.

With the commlink secured, the team moves out of the barrens without incident. The hacker does some cracking, and finds out that a fixer named Zipper was offering Nabo the disk. Tracking Zipper down to a old bar, which seems to be a gathering of information dealers and matrix specialists, Mark introduces himself and Mallus as Mr. Nuyen and Mr. Muscle. A few bribes, some negotiation and a few veiled threats quickly gain them the information that someone named Loomis has it. Problem is that Loomis is in a dive in a Z-zone so we decide to gear up before heading there.

A few hours later we pull up to the dive, deep in Red Hot Nukes gang territory. Entering the bar we get harrassed a bit by the bartender before he decides we mean business, and decides to call down his boss, Loomis. Tells the team Loomis is coming down, we decide to wait for him. Mark hears a noise from the back of the bar, and thinks Loomis is coming in through the backdoor. The bartender thinks that is strange and goes up to check on his boss. A little too late Mark figures out that Loomis is escaping. Alerting Mallus, Mark searches for a back door, and is totally unprepared when Mallus charges and breaks through the wall leaving a troll sized hole there. Seeing our target fleeing in the direction of a junkyard Mark is about to say to Mallus that we need him alive, when the targets head explodes in a shower of gore. On top of that we hear a shout "Hell yeah! Headshot!"

Now I was really worried. I heard that combat was dangerous in shadowrun, so my first thought was where can Mark hide and take cover.

After handling the intiative Mallus decides to run out into the open, and grabs Loomis's body. I decide to be brave, draw my predator and take a shot at the sniper (which I located due to a good perception check), hoping to distract him from shooting at Mallus. The shot has no chance of hitting the sniper, and now Mallus is out in the open. Not only does the sniper hit him, but Mark also sees him engulfed by a manaball. The great troll takes all these hits in stride (which would reduce Mark to a pair of smoking boots) and is returning to the inn with Loomis's corpse. This time Mark decides to provide cover and take a shot at whoever threw the manaball at Mallus, if the mage breaks cover. Two more sniper shots hit Mallus but are ineffective. Sure enough the ork mage steps from behind some stacked cars, and eats two shots of 10 mm caseless. I rolled well, he rolled poorly and scratch one mage. We withdraw inside the bar, and notice that Loomis has a datadisk in his pocket. This is where we decided to end the session.


Observations:
- I like the resolution mechanic in shadowrun, it is pretty quick and neat. There are lots of bonuses and penalties to your basic roll but I think it works out well if you have a good gm screen
- combat is extremely deadly. Mark has by far the worst armor here, I think if he got hit by any of the sniper shots, Mallus would have two corpses to carry. Note to self: get better armor ASAP, and hug cover
- on the other hand, don't piss Mallus off. I think shooting all day at him with a predator would not make a dent
- having a blast playing; lots of interesting mechanics that are well implemented. Edge, contacts, lifestyles, and the whole setting seems great. Resolving a combat turn may take some time, but they are deadly. Also like the core mechanic, luck has a lot to do with success.

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-18, 03:51 PM
Well, Tehnar, looks like you did better than my group did when Slade ran it last time...

Hope it all goes well after this.

Tehnar
2009-10-18, 04:16 PM
Have a feeling things will go south from here. We are in a gang dive (which has a large hole in the wall which we made), with the corpse of the owner. On one way out is a sniper. On the other are a bunch of gangers, and the bartender just pulled out a Ares Firewatch.

Though I have to thank you, TheCountAlucard, without this thread i would probably never get interested in Shadowrun.

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-18, 04:24 PM
Ares FirewatchDo you mean Ares Predator? I thought Firewatch was their response team... :smallconfused:


Though I have to thank you, TheCountAlucard, without this thread i would probably never get interested in Shadowrun.Umm, you're welcome! :smallbiggrin:

Lycan 01
2009-10-18, 04:28 PM
Dang... That sounds so awesome... I seriously want to play Shadowrun.

It doesn't help that I caught a great episode of Ghost in the Shell (2nd Gig) last night, which has greatly re-ignited my interest in the show. :smallannoyed:


Hm...

If I only find one or two people to play Shadowrun, could they just run extra characters? Like... 2 people each? That'd be a four person party, and if a character died, the player would still be able to play with the other... If that works well, I might could get at least two people interested in it... :smallconfused:

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-18, 04:34 PM
If I only find one or two people to play Shadowrun, could they just run extra characters? Like... 2 people each? That'd be a four person party, and if a character died, the player would still be able to play with the other... If that works well, I might could get at least two people interested in it...That might work, although in my experience, playing more than one character at once can get a bit confusing. You might instead try letting both people play one character, but give them a handful of extra build points, or work the adventures in such a way that only two people are necessary.

Lycan 01
2009-10-18, 04:37 PM
How hard is it to run for two people? :smallconfused:


Its funny how many ideas I've come up with for Shadowrun. Information retrieval, assassinations, escort missions... And yet I can't put them to good use. Well, I suppose if anybody wants them, I could share. :smalltongue:

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-18, 04:48 PM
How hard is it to run for two people?Not too hard, if the players are willing to take up more than one role per person. A Hacker/Street Samurai actually isn't too hard to do, if you have enough build points.


Its funny how many ideas I've come up with for Shadowrun. Information retrieval, assassinations, escort missions... And yet I can't put them to good use. Well, I suppose if anybody wants them, I could share.Reminds me of how I came up with one based off of Jonathan Coulton's I Feel Fantastic.

comicshorse
2009-10-18, 05:27 PM
Do you mean Ares Predator? I thought Firewatch was their response team..

Yep Firewatch are Ares's elite combat teams. If the bartender pulled one of those out from behind the bar, something very strange is going on


How hard is it to run for two people?



A G.M. of my acquitance had this problem recently. Rather than run a standard Shadowrun game where the P.C.s couldn't cover enough roles to be effecient. He decided to run Shadowrun but with the two P.C.s taking the roles of two cops. This gave the P.C.s less roles to cover as the slack could be picked up by other departements and gave the game a very cinematic buddy-cop movie feel

Lycan 01
2009-10-18, 06:13 PM
What roles, races, and classes are actually available? What is the average team comrpised of, or at least what does the average team need? :smallconfused:

How hard is this game to run online? Do you need to be able to upload maps and really detailed info, or can it be played just by DM's description?

comicshorse
2009-10-18, 06:33 PM
What roles, races, and classes are actually available? What is the average team comrpised of, or at least what does the average team need?

Ok ( deep breath)
MAGE: Magicians can cast spells that can heal, hurt or do pretty much everything you can think of. Drawback the more powerful the spell the more its likely to hurt the Mage.
They can also summon spirits which have powers of their own.
Also they can will their spirit form to leave their body and travel invisibly around

SHAMANS: Depends on the edition you use. But basically they summon different types of spirits. In previous editions it was thought ( with some truth) that Shaman summoning was more powerful than that of Mages so this has been corrected in 4th Ed but with the disadvantage of removing some of the flavour of Shamans (IMHO)

FACE: Con-men, fixers, thieves and tricksters. A face will prefer to talk his way out of trouble than shoot his way out. Any cyberware of bioware will be dedicated to this

DECKERS: High-tech computer hackers. In the information age, you need one of these guys

RIGGERS: Use technology to mentally link with their vehicles. The ultimate get-away drivers. They also control drones which can provide ezxcellent re-con or added firepower

PHYSICAL ADEPTS: Use magic to accomplish impossible physical feats. Fast, stealthy and very deadly. Think Ninja's

STREET-SAMURAI: Urban warriors, cybernetically enhanced to be the best of the best.

For a group I'd say five is a good number. With ideal choices being some magic ( a mage or a Shaman), some muscle ( a Street-Samurai or a Physical Adept), some social (a Face for the times when you can't use guns), a info-gatherer and tech head ( a Decker for obvious reasons) and a wheel man (a Rigger, preferably with a good selection of Drones)
You could lose the Face or the Rigger if you really have to but those five roles make the ideal group ( in my opinion :smallsmile:)

Lycan 01
2009-10-18, 06:49 PM
Aren't there also Technomancers? :smallconfused:

Oh, and what classes fill the "gun bunny" roll I've heard of?


What sort of races are there?


Hm. I doubt I'd be able to get five people to play. I'd be lucky to get three. Kinda sad, really - I used to have a 10-person Call of Cthulhu group. :smalleek: But everyone's busy these days... And most of my players who do have the time just aren't interested in Shadowrun. :smallfrown:

Crowbar
2009-10-18, 06:59 PM
Aren't there also Technomancers? :smallconfused:

Oh, and what classes fill the "gun bunny" roll I've heard of?


What sort of races are there?

Technomancers fill pretty much the same roll as hackers and riggers, but they have different rules associated with them, what with the ability to control the Matrix with their mind.

A "gun bunny" character can just be a Street Samurai with the right cyberware and skills to be really, really good with guns. Or an Adept with appropriate powers.

And the races are human, dwarf, ork, elf and troll.

Lycan 01
2009-10-18, 07:03 PM
Ah... No vampires, werewolves, gnomes, or other fantasy staples? Or at least, as playable characters? I've read something about a virus that causes mutation into ghouls and monsters and stuff... Where does that come into play? :smallconfused:

comicshorse
2009-10-18, 07:06 PM
Oh, and what classes fill the "gun bunny" roll I've heard of?


That would be best done by a Street Samurai, though you can go the Physical Adept route with that as well.
There are also more tech based characters who may be less focused on combat but have the skills in weapon design and modification


What sort of races are there?

Elves: who have prospered in the new world. Elves are fashionable and sexy elves have filled media positions the world over. They have also carved out nations of their own from the crisis hit world

Orcs: smart enough to realise how prejudiced they are against. Orcs are usually on the bottom rung of the social ladder. Gangs are full of Orcs angry at a a society that definitely doesn't like them.

Dwarves : dwarves tend to have a mechanical aptitude and so in a high-tech age tend to have more of a shot at happiness than the orcs. Regarded popularly as hard-working and decent. Dwarves tend to be better excepted in society

Trolls: Trolls have shorter life-spans than most races, the world is designed for humans not them. Luckily trolls tend to a lower intelligence and so don't really realize how screwed they are. Less bitterness than the average orc and the fact they are really hard workers, tend to get trolls by in labour intensive jobs. Still thay are hardly the best treated race

Humans: They're human

There are also rules in the 'Runners Companion' for playing the minor races. These include Shapeshifters, Vampires ( and the various other Infected), ghouls, A.I.s, Nagas and Sasquatchs

Lycan 01
2009-10-18, 09:24 PM
If a character just wanted to be a hybrid sort of character, like a wolfman or a catgirl, but for roleplaying purposes rather than for game mechanics, could the GM just classify them as a human? :smallconfused: I suppose it is up to the GM, but I personally would not want to buy the book with the shapeshifter info just because one of my players wants dog ears or a cat tail. :smallannoyed:


In related news, I spoke with two friends earlier, and they both expressed interest in Shadowrun. One is a very reliable player, who once said he'd play any RPG I ran since he enjoys my games so much. He said Shadowrun sounded fun. I dunno what he'd want to play as... Personally, I think he'd do well with multiple characters. He's an expert roleplayer, and an RPG genius... It'd be a piece of cake for him to keep up with two Shadowrunners. The other players is my best friend, who prefers very, very simple RPGs. He didn't seem too keen on the idea of Shadowrun when I first told him about it, especially since it sounded very complex and a bit weird. He started joking about playing as a catgirl who served as the party's tank. I said that'd be fine - he could be a human with animalistic traits, cybernetic claw enhancements, and the Street Samurai or Mystic Adept role. He now really wants to play Shadowrun. :smalltongue:


He did, however, pose an interesting question. How does combat in Shadowrun work? :smallconfused: What is the health system like? And if a character dies, can they burn Edge Points to survive, or at least cling to life by the skin of their teeth?

Raum
2009-10-18, 09:35 PM
If a character just wanted to be a hybrid sort of character, like a wolfman or a catgirl, but for roleplaying purposes rather than for game mechanics, could the GM just classify them as a human? :smallconfused: I suppose it is up to the GM, but I personally would not want to buy the book with the shapeshifter info just because one of my players wants dog ears or a cat tail. :smallannoyed:Second ed Shadowrun (I haven't purchased 4th ed supplements.) took a different approach to shapechangers. Basically, they didn't start out human...they were animals with the ability to take human shape for a time. But they are still animals with an outsider's viewpoint of human culture. It makes for interesting backgrounds and interaction with things we take for granted. :smallwink:

However! There are markets for fetish cosmetic modifications...

Yes, you can find a street doc who will do anything.

Science Officer
2009-10-18, 09:53 PM
If you have questions about the setting, you should check out the SixthWorldWiki (http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Main_Page)

I'm not sure about 4th ed. shapeschangers either, but SURGE (http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/SURGE) is what is mostly responsible for catpeople and such. generally a player would take qualities with various restrictions and BP costs, but would be classified as their base metatype.

Combat (in 4th ed.) is composed of opposed tests using the dicepool system.
Say you roll 3 hits on your Pistols + Agility roll, and whatever grunt you're shooting at rolls 1 hit on his Reaction roll, you have 2 net hits.
Net hits determine whether an attack hits, how it's base damage value is modified and how much damage is resisted by the target's body and armour.
There's a modifier for everything, and combat can be as simple or complex as you want it.

As for health, players have two condition tracks, Physical and Stun. Damage fills up a number of boxes. once the track fills up, they die or fall unconscious, respectively.

And as for group size, a thread over on Dumpshock seemed to agree that 3-5 is best. More than that and there is too much overlapping, and the pay is spread too thinly.

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-19, 02:12 AM
As for health, players have two condition tracks, Physical and Stun. Damage fills up a number of boxes. once the track fills up, they die or fall unconscious, respectively.Ah, but if their Stun fills up and they continue to take Stun damage, it converts over to Physical, meaning that unlike in D&D, you can get die from non-lethal damage.

In other words...

Chip: "All right, I throw a quarter at him, and am dealing Stun damage."
GM: "Okay, roll it."
(some math is done)
GM: "Twenty-seven Stun?"
Chip: "So, he's knocked out, right?"
GM: "No, he's dead, and what used to be his head is splattered all over the wall, a bloody quarter embedded an inch into the brick."

Tehnar
2009-10-19, 03:33 AM
Ill explain combat real quick (as far as I understand it).

Every weapon has a damage value. You roll dice equal in your skill with that weapon + related attribute (usually agility). You note the number of hits (5 or 6). Your opponent rolls reaction dice (+/- other modifiers, depending on situation), and notes his hits. If your net number of hits is 1 or more you hit. Then you add your net number of hits to the damage value of your weapon. Your opponent then rolls his body attribute + modified armor attribute (dependant on your ammunition type, weapon type, etc.), and subtracts that number from your modified damage value. This is then the damage you deal to a opponent.

Now there are different firing options (short burst, wide burst, full auto, etc), various modifiers on rolls depending on cover, visibility, viewing mode, etc that I didn't include up there.

Also everyone has ~10 hp. Getting shot even for 1 damage is not nice, losing more hp adds wound penalties to everything you do, so being shot up is not nice. Combat is deadly, and you can drop opponents in one round, and they can drop you.

Lost Demiurge
2009-10-19, 10:25 AM
If a character just wanted to be a hybrid sort of character, like a wolfman or a catgirl, but for roleplaying purposes rather than for game mechanics, could the GM just classify them as a human? :smallconfused: I suppose it is up to the GM, but I personally would not want to buy the book with the shapeshifter info just because one of my players wants dog ears or a cat tail. :smallannoyed:


Sure, easy to do without the book. Just say that they had body-modification surgery, or magic did weird things to their genes at some point.

Still, the player's companion is a pretty awesome book. If you stick with Shadowrun a while, I'd recommend picking it up.



In related news, I spoke with two friends earlier, and they both expressed interest in Shadowrun. One is a very reliable player, who once said he'd play any RPG I ran since he enjoys my games so much. He said Shadowrun sounded fun. I dunno what he'd want to play as... Personally, I think he'd do well with multiple characters. He's an expert roleplayer, and an RPG genius... It'd be a piece of cake for him to keep up with two Shadowrunners. The other players is my best friend, who prefers very, very simple RPGs. He didn't seem too keen on the idea of Shadowrun when I first told him about it, especially since it sounded very complex and a bit weird. He started joking about playing as a catgirl who served as the party's tank. I said that'd be fine - he could be a human with animalistic traits, cybernetic claw enhancements, and the Street Samurai or Mystic Adept role. He now really wants to play Shadowrun. :smalltongue:


Two is enough for a game, as long as both of them play it smart. Remind them that they can always hire people to do things they can't... Fixers are good for filling human resources, along with their other functions.



He did, however, pose an interesting question. How does combat in Shadowrun work? :smallconfused: What is the health system like? And if a character dies, can they burn Edge Points to survive, or at least cling to life by the skin of their teeth?

Combat is quick and deadly. Guns dominate, but if you can close with someone then melee can be a good silent or nonlethal takedown. Big weapons do big damage, but tend to attract more attention. They're also harder to hide... In the default setting, a lot of civilized areas overlook light pistols, tasers, and mace-equivalents. Hauling a shotgun or uzi down the street? Not a good idea, without a fake bodyguard license or something equivalent. And then, expect to get stopped for an ID check if you're in a nicer neighborhood. Assault rifles, LAWs, or grenades? Here come the cops! Panther Assault Cannon slung across your bike? Yeah, those cops are going to come in shooting.

In general, PC's want to avoid getting ambushed as much as possible, and ambush as much as possible. You should never be in a fair fight. If you find yourself in a bad situation, don't be afraid to run. Oh, and every PC needs armor. EVERYONE.

Also, anyone who wants to play a combat character needs multiple initiative passes. Hell, even if you're not a combat character, one extra pass can help you get out of trouble, and defend more easily. There are six ways to increase your passes.

1. Pay an edge to gain an extra pass: This uses edge, which is needed for other things. But when you're in a do-or-die situation, sometimes it can save your bacon.
2. Use combat drugs: Bad idea in the long-term, but good when you've got a second to prepare, and don't mind risking addiction. If you want the least risk, the main book has stats for something called Jazz. It's produced by Lone Star subsidiaries, and legal for licensed law enforcement professionals. About as addictive as weak coffee. Police pop this when they're up against cybered perps.
3. Cyberware or Bioware: Wired reflexes are a solid investment for any street samurai. There's a bioware equivalent, but it's more expensive... Much less essence loss, though. If you're playing a magical character, forget this option.
4. Adept powers: There's an adept power that duplicates wired reflexes. It's a big investment, but for combat monkeys, it's hard to beat.
5. A particular magician spell: Useful, and you can throw it on other people as well. The problem is that it has to be sustained, to work. That's -2 dice to all other tests for the sustaining magician while that spell's going. There's a workaround with sustaining foci, but that takes money and build or karma to work.
6. Spirit boosting: If you know the magician spell to increase passes, and are a magician capable of summoning spirits of man at around level 3 or higher, you can give the spirit your spell, and tell it to boost people. The downside, is that then the spirit is rolling -2 dice per spell sustained. Still, it's
better than tieing up your own dice pool.

The health system is explained in other posts above me.

You can absolutely burn an edge point to survive. This gets rid of it permanently, or until the PC buys it back with karma.

Slade
2009-10-19, 12:16 PM
Wow, this thread took off real fast... hey Lycan, we are playing over skype at this moment.... so look me up. My skype is james_steelhaven .

Same for all the rest of you guys.

Anywho, yes you can do furries in 3 major ways:

1: Shapeshifters (like werewolves, werecats, etc...) who are animals that have the ability to turn into humans. They are all luddites though, so they all have the Uneducated flaw (and probably Uncouth too... they are animals after all) so they can't use tech worth a flip. BUT! They are all awaken mages (or adepts) so it balances out somewhat. No, they cannot regenerate, but they all have allergies to silver (or gold).

2: SURGE victims (level 1 to 3) Level 1 Surge victims have cat ears, non-functioning whiskers, fangs, or something like that. Level 3 victims are covered in fur, have a tail that works, functioning whiskers (balance and low light vision), cat teeth, are carnivores, and like to hunt.

Note that the first two have no choice in the matter, but the next group are just freaks:

3: Cosmetic bio-mods. If they can change your sex, they put in fur and a working tail (its even got stats: see Augmentation).

Also, note that the same goes for Dog boys, Lizard-men, bird folks, cow people? Anyways, there you go. So, yes you can have furries in your shadowrun game.

Slade
2009-10-19, 12:42 PM
Class rolls:

With the improved mechanic system for Shadowrun, there are four big roles:

Gunslinger: Puts bullets in people

Spell slinger: Casts spells and deals with spirits

Tech Guy: deals with technology (i.e. matrix and drones)

Charisma spec: deals with people.

Just about anyone can deal with the above, though only magicians can casts spells (obviously).

Gunslingers come in two main flavors: Cyber'ed and Magical. Cyber'ed gunslingers get their reaction and agility to mind boggling levels and shoot people. Magical types, which are usually Adpets, use magic to get their reaction, intuition, and agility to similarly stupid high levels and shoot people too. In fact, in the long run, magical gunslingers get better, due to them being able to pump their intuition, as no cyber or bio ware can increase intuition. Yet.

Spellslingers only come in two varieties: Hippies and Gandolfs. There are others, but they are few and far between; but they all do the same thing. Cast spells, deal with spirits, use magic items, and go into the astral (handy thing that...). The details are only cosmetic.

Tech guys... now these guys have all the fun. Riggers, Hackers (a.k.a Deckers from the bad old days), and now Technomancers. Everyone can do each other's job, though specialists are still kings in their fields. Technos are the mages of the matrix, and yea, works about the same way. Don't have a program? Thread it up!

Charisma Spec: Ah, the Face. Good times with him. Most faces tend to be bio wared (Tailored Pheromones FTW!) though Shamans (who tend to have high charisma scores, so why not?) make grrrrrrreat faces too. And since they can magical boost their Charisma scores, and all of that good stuff, you can see where this is going.

So, there you are guys: all your character types all in one.

Also, most Shadowruns should go down like an Ocean's (X) movie. Very little gun fire. Though, a lot of Heat, Ronin, Smoking Aces, Boondock Saints is fine too.

Lycan 01
2009-10-19, 12:55 PM
What do Initiative passes do? :smallconfused:


Oh man, this game sounds so fun... Didn't they just come out with an Anniversary Edition? How much does it cost? :smallconfused:


Lets see... What other random questions can I come up with?

How often does the GM give our Karma, and what usually earns it?

How does one get Edge, and recover it after spending or burning it?

What is the difference in spending and burning Edge?

What sort of special weapons are in the game? Shotguns and sniper rifles are expected... but what about things like chainswords, lasers, power fists, microwave guns, rail & Tesla rifles, and other sci-fi weaponry?

What sort of armor can players get? Kevlar vests? Synthetic mesh implanted beneath the skin? Power armor? :smallbiggrin:

Hacking... What can you do with it? Pick up people's signals and hack machine gun turrets, naturally... But can you hack a camera to make yourself invisible to it, or even hack into somebody else's cybernetic enhancements and make them dance like a puppet to your tune?

Lost Demiurge
2009-10-19, 12:56 PM
As far as niches go, there's also room for a Covert Ops specialist: AKA Infiltrator guy, AKA Solid Snake

Good stealth and athletics skills, some disguise, a little skill with a rifle for sniping, some demolitions skill for planting charges, and some top-notch gear or light magical enhancement equals someone who can get into a good position to do useful stuff. Splash with a secondary skillset of face or hacker, for maximum utility.

Mind you, it's not a hugely necessary niche... You can get by without one. It's just fun as hell to play if you do it right.

Lycan 01
2009-10-19, 01:09 PM
Class rolls:
Gunslinger: Puts bullets in people

Spell slinger: Casts spells and deals with spirits

Tech Guy: deals with technology (i.e. matrix and drones)

Charisma spec: deals with people.

Just about anyone can deal with the above, though only magicians can casts spells (obviously).

Can you specialize to sling guns and magic, and still be effective? Likewise, I'm sure you could be the Techie and the Face without too much of a hitch...



Tech guys... now these guys have all the fun. Riggers, Hackers (a.k.a Deckers from the bad old days), and now Technomancers. Everyone can do each other's job, though specialists are still kings in their fields. Technos are the mages of the matrix, and yea, works about the same way. Don't have a program? Thread it up!

Didn't 4e combine Deckers and Riggers into Hackers? That's what I heard...


Charisma Spec: Ah, the Face. Good times with him. Most faces tend to be bio wared (Tailored Pheromones FTW!) though Shamans (who tend to have high charisma scores, so why not?) make grrrrrrreat faces too. And since they can magical boost their Charisma scores, and all of that good stuff, you can see where this is going.

So basically, Shaman equals epic Mage and epic Face in the same package? :smallconfused:


Boondock Saints

WIN. :smallbiggrin:



So... If I have two players, would they do well as a Mystic Adept gun bunny and a very charismatic Hacker?

An Infiltrator guy might make a good third character, if somebody wants to double up...

Timeras
2009-10-19, 01:48 PM
What do Initiative passes do?
Every Character has an number of initiative passes. Basically, that's the number of actions you can take each turn.



How often does the GM give our Karma, and what usually earns it?
Afer each run. You get one point for survival, one or more for each goal you achieved and possibly extra points for clever plans or good roleplaying


How does one get Edge, and recover it after spending or burning it? What is the difference in spending and burning Edge? Edge is an attribute, just like constitution or intelligence. You have a number of points equal to your Edge Attribute that you can spend. Sometimes you need to burn Edge wich permanently reduces the attribute rating.


What sort of special weapons are in the game? Shotguns and sniper rifles are expected... but what about things like chainswords, lasers, power fists, microwave guns, rail & Tesla rifles, and other sci-fi weaponry? I remember a Laser in an earlier edition, but I don't know if there are still rules for it in 4th. You mostly use "normal" Firearms or melee weapons.


What sort of armor can players get? Kevlar vests? Yes.
Synthetic mesh implanted beneath the skin?Something like that. Dermal plating and Orthoskin.
Power armor?I don't think there are rules for that. Would draw too much attention anyway.


Can you specialize to sling guns and magic, and still be effective? You can be a mage and have weapon skills, actually most mages will probably be trained at least with pistols, but if you don't concentrate on one thing, you will probably not be very good at either.



Didn't 4e combine Deckers and Riggers into Hackers? That's what I heard... Yes, but different skills are needed. And both requires expensive equipment.




So basically, Shaman equals epic Mage and epic Face in the same package? No. But an impurtant attribute for shamans is charisma, so they have a certain talent for this. But every character can learn any skill (unless it's a magic related skill for a non awakened character).



So... If I have two players, would they do well as a Mystic Adept gun bunny and a very charismatic Hacker? Might work.

Slade
2009-10-19, 02:18 PM
Yea, shamans in Shadowrun 4 run off charisma as their "drain stat", that is the stat used along with willpower to suck the drain. So, since they tend to have a high charisma, why not face as well?

And no, riggers and hacker are 2 separate things, but since the gear and the skill set are so close together, its not hard to branch out and do both. A'la the Major from GITS_SAC. In fact, when you have 200 karma on your character sheet, and your not a techno or a mage, you have to branch out, there is nothing to do.

"What do Initiative passes do?"
Initiative passes, or IP's in short, give the character extra actions in combat, not unlike celerity from V:tM back in the day. The order of IP's if this:
Everyman (everyone gets to go first) then you start on the 1st IP, then the second IP, then the Third IP, then the fourth IP. If characters don't have the extra IP's, too bad, every one takes their full IP's. You do not have to do anything on an IP. However, everyone gets the first IP.
So, the gunslinger can put up a wall of lead when you have 4 IP's you can take 8 simple actions; firing a Semi-Auto weapon is a simple action. If you have 4 IP's, and are dual wielding 2 Semi Autos, or SMG's or LP, you can take 16 attacks on Burst Fire.
So, yea, wall o' lead. What is really sick is when you are dual wielding Semi-Automatic Grenade Launchers. I think you can do the math on that one.

"How often does the GM give our Karma, and what usually earns it?"
The usual suspects; there is a page with all the karma rewards on it. 5 to 7 is average, with more for more epic stuff. Easy runs give less of course.

"How does one get Edge, and recover it after spending or burning it?"
"What is the difference in spending and burning Edge?"

Edge is the "luck stat" and it is bought at Character Creation like all other stats. It is a pool of points to spend as needed. It can also be spent from the stat itself (i.e. You lose point) but the roll is considered all success. So if your dice pool is a 16 (not hard to do) and you BURN a point, all 16 dice are considered hits. Which is epic.
Also, burning a point of edge when you character is DEAD will keep him at NOT DEAD. Note: you character is still probably seriously hurt.
Edge refreshes after every run, adventure, or when the GM wants the damn thing to fill back up. You also get a point edge back when you roll 5 hits over a threshold. This usually doesn't happen on combat rolls, because scoring awesome leads to awesome damage.
But, if you where to say, dodge an attack and your Reaction + Dodge was 5 points over, you WOULD get a point of Edge back. Which is a good thing.
This replaces Karma from the previous editions. Karma is now solely used for exp. Also, stats like Street Cred and
Public Awareness are also tracked with Karma.

"What sort of special weapons are in the game? Shotguns and sniper rifles are expected... but what about things like chainswords, lasers, power fists, microwave guns, rail & Tesla rifles, and other sci-fi weaponry?"
What sort of armor can players get? Kevlar vests? Synthetic mesh implanted beneath the skin? Power armor?

Yes, Yes, Yes, You betcha, Nothing like that, Nope, Yes and No, Oh yeaaa....
First, Shadowrun is high tech, but based on stuff we have now and stuff from the first 3 editions.
Shotguns, Sniper Rifles, Hunting Rifles, Rocket Launchers, Grenade Launchers, explosives, Anti-Vehicular weapons, EMP weapons, and the like are Sci-Fi fare, and are found in abundance.
The weapons might have stuff like Smartgun Links (which give the character HUD with info about the weapons like Ammo Counts, Heat Buildup, Stress Fractures, and the Like) mounted cameras that see in ultrasound, guns that control themselves via Agents, and all that uber sci fi jazz, but they are, still guns.
As for Handwavium Sci Fi weapons, the suspects include: Laser Weapons, Rail Guns & Gauss Cannons, nano-machine disassembler bullets, mono-molecular wire weapons, vibro weapons, tracker bullets, capacitor bullets (Stick -n- Shock rounds that do stun), gyro jet rocket rounds, bows that shoot every flavor of arrows, from regular arrowheads, to mono-wire tipped, to explosive tipped, to tracker arrowheads, and that can do more damage than some lighter sniper rifles (no kidding, ****ing trolls), tazers of all shapes and sizes, from hold outs, to sniper rifle sized stun rounds, missiles and rockets that can do ANYTHING, from Anti-Vehicular, to stun, to chemical payloads, to jamming, to delivering EMP's, and of course bullets that deliver a chemical payload. Cue Narco-jet rounds.

Armor comes in just as many flavors, from simple flak jackets, to discreet business suits, all the way up to the Master Chief's "Mjoliner" class power armor. Trust, me, I have a troll in one of my games that has, no kidding, 52 soak dice. This dude can soak 14 level of damage WITHOUT ROLLING....

Then there are the vehicles. Remember the Tachikomas anyone? I do believe that you can build any Transformer using the vehicle book. The only Sci Fi staple they are missing is an FTL capable craft. But then again, since everything is on Earth, there is no need for FTL.


"Hacking... What can you do with it? Pick up people's signals and hack machine gun turrets, naturally... But can you hack a camera to make yourself invisible to it, or even hack into somebody else's cybernetic enhancements and make them dance like a puppet to your tune?"

Since everyone in 2072 is running an advanced version of Linux (more on that later), hacking pretty much does what ever you want it to. I have describe cyber-combat as everything from the crappy Hackerz movie (
I use my rabbit virus!") references to Matrix:Reloaded (for the Ultraviolet nodes).

However, once the Black IC has been crashed, the firewalls breached, and the Exploit program has given you Admin access, you can do WHATEVER in the heck you want that Commlink/Node/Peripheral device to do. This is key when dealing with Drones.

Technomancers are the new kid on the block, and as such they are not liked in 2072. And, for you GITS fans, they have an Immersion power (similar to metamagic abilities for mages), that lets you soul hack. I kid you not. Also, in the case of Cybernetic devices, they have to be wireless enabled, thats how they do the diagnostics. So, yes you can hack cyber-ware. Usually. Sometimes, in the case of VERY ILLEGAL cyber-ware like Move-by-wire, you don't that on the internet. So they disable the wireless features.
There is another option called skin-linking, that allows you to use your body's electrical field as the wireless signal carrier. THAT cannot be hacked, unless there is direct skin to skin contact with a hacker with skin-linked commlinks (or a technomancer with the right "stuff"). Since most modern (as in 2072) body armor is made of plastic of some kind, that is enough to insulate a user from "Skin-hacking".
So short answer is YES. Long answer is Not very likely.

Any other questions, amigo?

Lost Demiurge
2009-10-19, 02:24 PM
What do Initiative passes do? :smallconfused:


Oh man, this game sounds so fun... Didn't they just come out with an Anniversary Edition? How much does it cost? :smallconfused:


Lets see... What other random questions can I come up with?

How often does the GM give our Karma, and what usually earns it?

How does one get Edge, and recover it after spending or burning it?

What is the difference in spending and burning Edge?

What sort of special weapons are in the game? Shotguns and sniper rifles are expected... but what about things like chainswords, lasers, power fists, microwave guns, rail & Tesla rifles, and other sci-fi weaponry?

What sort of armor can players get? Kevlar vests? Synthetic mesh implanted beneath the skin? Power armor? :smallbiggrin:

Hacking... What can you do with it? Pick up people's signals and hack machine gun turrets, naturally... But can you hack a camera to make yourself invisible to it, or even hack into somebody else's cybernetic enhancements and make them dance like a puppet to your tune?

Anniversary edition was about $50, last I checked.

I give out karma at the end of every session or run. I usually give out 2-5 points per (weekly) session, depending on how well the session went, how clever the PC's were, and how much fun I think people had. (Including me.)

Everyone starts with an edge of 1 or 2. (Depending on race.) You can buy it up with character points at creation, and karma later on. Edge that gets spent is recovered at the end of the session (Or mission, depending on how much of a cliffhanger you want.) Edge that gets burnt is GONE, and can only be bought back with karma.

For most sci-fi weaponry, check out the Arsenal book. It has stuff like backpack lasers and mass drivers. They are rare, expensive, and tend to attract a TON of attention.

Special weapons that don't attract much attention can also be found in the main book. Check out Shock gloves, monofilament whips, and if you're REALLY feeling lucky, a monofilament chainsaw.

Armor: Armored clothing is the minimum for 2070's runners. There's also various types of kevlar and carbon-plate enhanced wear. If you want power armor, you'll have to check out arsenal. Trolls start with some natural armor, and there's cyberware to give you armored skin and armor inserts. Adepts can buy magical armor-like powers. Power armor is in the Arsenal book. It's REALLY expensive, and requires servo augments if you want to do stuff like, oh, say, walk with it on.

Hacking: You can hack drones, commlinks (Which are like cell phone/pda/web browsers.), machines, cameras, and anything that has a wireless signal. Of course, some things are hard-wired, to prevent hackers from getting in via wireless. These must be physically compromised by tools, if you want to hack them. Others are shielded, so that hackers have to be within a few feet to hack in. Some installations have wi-fi proof wallpaper and paint, so that signals don't enter or leave the building, save on hardwired paths or heavily secured ports.

Most cyberware falls under the hard-wired or shielded category. Still, occasionally you get a n00b street sam who didn't seal all his ports, or whose cyberdoc left a few backdoors. Tends to happen more often with reused cyberware, or cheap streetpunk warez.

Slade
2009-10-19, 02:29 PM
Chip: "All right, I throw a quarter at him, and am dealing Stun damage."
GM: "Okay, roll it."
(some math is done)
GM: "Twenty-seven Stun?"
Chip: "So, he's knocked out, right?"
GM: "No, he's dead, and what used to be his head is splattered all over the wall, a bloody quarter embedded an inch into the brick.".

I believe the line after that was: "You hit harder than a anti-tank rifle."

GreyMantle
2009-10-19, 02:31 PM
But keep in mind (obviously) that you don't need to pay full price. I, for example, got the main 4E book off of ebay for like twenty bucks, counting the shipping. And if you're really pressed for nuyen, there are certain...substitutes that you can use until you get a real copy.

Slade
2009-10-19, 02:37 PM
Power Armor?

Power armor like most of us geeks in this room think of it, would be an anthro-form drone, with a driver inside, decked out with all sorts of bells and whistles. (And guns, and knifes, and rockets, and missiles, and commlinks, and armor, and Strength augmentations, and and and and and....) This would be more in line with Terminator Armor from WH40K.

As for say, Master Chief or Space Marine power armor see Heavy Combat Armor in the Arsenal book. You can do all kinds crazy things with that stuff. Either way, Arsenal book is needed.

Lycan 01
2009-10-19, 02:59 PM
Fascinating... Very fascinating...

I actually read through a Shadowrun pbp game being held here on the forums. It was quite a fun read, to say the least. But I noticed something that I didn't quite understand. The players kept changing their signal settings, or something like that. Like... They were running background scans of different sorts, setting them to numbers like 4 and 5, back and forth every now and then. I get the gist of it - they'll scanning local commlinks and/or WiFi signals for info or warnings. But it seemed like a TON of info to sort through, for both the player and escecially the GM. Is it really that complicated, or does it just seem that way on paper? :smallconfused:

Lost Demiurge
2009-10-19, 03:13 PM
Fascinating... Very fascinating...

I actually read through a Shadowrun pbp game being held here on the forums. It was quite a fun read, to say the least. But I noticed something that I didn't quite understand. The players kept changing their signal settings, or something like that. Like... They were running background scans of different sorts, setting them to numbers like 4 and 5, back and forth every now and then. I get the gist of it - they'll scanning local commlinks and/or WiFi signals for info or warnings. But it seemed like a TON of info to sort through, for both the player and escecially the GM. Is it really that complicated, or does it just seem that way on paper? :smallconfused:

Eh, it's as complicated as the GM wants it to be.

You want to go into detail, then sure, your PC's will need to worry about how high they've got their comms cranked up.

You want to ignore that and focus on Ocean's Eleven style stuff, go for it. Run rules-lite, don't sweat the hacking, and proceed.

I started rules-lite, ran very well for about a year, throwing in more rules as I saw the need for them. I still don't use all the hacking rules when I run.

Here's an outline of the bare minimum rules you need to understand, before GMing.

1. Figure out how the main dice mechanic works. (Easy.)
2. Run through a quick combat using NPC's, it clears up a lot of confusion.
3. Figure out how you want the matrix to work. (How much detail you want to provide when the hacker does his thing.) If you don't have a hacker, you don't have to sweat this one so much at first.
4. Look over the magic chapter, and figure out how astral space, spirits, and astral travel work.

Lycan 01
2009-10-19, 03:46 PM
I can work with rules-lite. :smallbiggrin:


What are some good ways to introduce players to Shadowrun? Like... How do I put it simple? "Shadowrun, in a nutshell, is a mixture of fantasy elements like magic and elves and stuff from DnD, a gritty technology and cyberpunk setting a la The Matrix and/or Ghost in the Shell, and scenarios like Ocean's (number), The Italian Job, and Boondock Saints." Would that work well enough? :smallconfused:

Also... How should I actually introduce them to the game itself. Like... what sort of sessions should they start out with?

I was actually thinking of something somebody mentioned earlier on in the thread. The players start out a group of young thugs and/or friends who are just scraping by in the lower levels of society. They only have very basic technology and upgrades, and only one of them knows a little, if any, magic. They then have to work together on some small time things - stop a robbery in progress, rescue a kidnapped person, take down a local gang leader. After a few missions, I'll skip it ahead a few years, and provide them with X amount of Karma Points they've gained over time while become established Shadowrunners. Now the cliche "bust into the office building and kill the boss and/or steal some files" missions can begin. :smallbiggrin:

NPCMook
2009-10-19, 05:11 PM
Currently helping a friend set up for playing an SR4A game, apparently I'm the only person he knows who owns all the books... including the SR4A book, I'm pretty peeved with CGL atm, They haven't made any mention of my limited edition book in about 3 months :furious:

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-19, 07:41 PM
Also... How should I actually introduce them to the game itself. Like... what sort of sessions should they start out with?

I was actually thinking of something somebody mentioned earlier on in the thread. The players start out a group of young thugs and/or friends who are just scraping by in the lower levels of society. They only have very basic technology and upgrades, and only one of them knows a little, if any, magic. They then have to work together on some small time things - stop a robbery in progress, rescue a kidnapped person, take down a local gang leader. After a few missions, I'll skip it ahead a few years, and provide them with X amount of Karma Points they've gained over time while become established Shadowrunners. Now the cliche "bust into the office building and kill the boss and/or steal some files" missions can begin.I heartily recommend the "Food Fight" adventure. :smallbiggrin:

The low-power start might make things pretty cool, but the players WILL be running from spirits. :smalltongue:

Lycan 01
2009-10-19, 09:00 PM
My girlfriend just signed on as a Shaman. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, she didn't want to play the last few times I mentioned it. But we were talking earlier, and I started telling her about the magic and spirit animals and stuff.

End result, she asks if she could be a Cheetah-person Shaman with a cybernetic arm and robotic eye, courtesy of a car accident. I told her I'd allow it, but she'd probabably lose some Essence from the robo-bits. She was fine with it, though, so... yeah. That takes care of our magic user. :smallcool:


Btw, she asked about getting a gun built into her arm later on. Specifically, a small plasma cannon. Is that possible? :smallconfused: Waaaaay later on, of course...

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-19, 09:46 PM
Btw, she asked about getting a gun built into her arm later on. Specifically, a small plasma cannon. Is that possible? Waaaaay later on, of course...Well, they don't have plasma weapons in SR, but you can get a weapon built into a body part; that's in the core book.

Lycan 01
2009-10-19, 09:58 PM
Ah...

Oh well. :smalltongue: I'm sure it won't bother her too much if she has to use a laser or rail gun instead...

Talked my buddy who wanted to be the catgirl. We fine tuned some specifics... Here's the team setup:


Best buddy: Ditzy catgirl Face, also skilled with melee and martial arts stuff.

Girlfriend: Cheetah-dude Shaman, probably with some gun skills.

Friend: No idea yet. Preferably a Hacker, with gun skills or gun drones.


How does that sound? :smallconfused:

comicshorse
2009-10-19, 10:04 PM
Sounds cool and with a good mix of talents and skills. BTW is
the Girlfriend: Cheetah-dude Shaman, probably with some gun skills.
a cat person from SURGE/ Cosmetic modification/Genetic tampering or do you mean her Totem is Cheetah ?

Lycan 01
2009-10-19, 10:28 PM
Um... Genetically mutated furry person. What's a Totem? :smallconfused:

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-19, 10:30 PM
Um... Genetically mutated furry person. What's a Totem?The spirit thingie that shamans emulate in their spellcasting.

comicshorse
2009-10-19, 10:58 PM
Um... Genetically mutated furry person. What's a Totem?

Totems are what makes Shamans more fun to play than Mages :smallsmile:

Basically a Mage's view of magic tends to be almost scientific, with the right rituals and formula's leading to the desired magical effects. Shamans are more.....freeform
A totem is the animal spirit that each Shaman learns from and draws his power from ( though Mages will argue differently...for hours). Each Totem has a distinct personality and Shamans will always echo this personality in themselves. Indeed some suggest Shamans will naturally grow more to resemble their Totem. Whenever I've played a Shaman, roleplaying the interaction between my character and his Totem has been one of my favourite bits.

In game terms each Totem provides bonuses to certain types of spells and to the summoning of different types of spirits but with an attendant disadvantage that reflects the nature of the Totem

Your P.C. could take Cat as her totem ( +2 Dice to Illusion spells, +2 Dice to either Gymnastics or Inflitration tests. But must amke a Willpower test to directly put down her opponent rather than simply hurt it. Cats like to play with their prey) or you could work up a background for a Cheetah Totem of your own

Lycan 01
2009-10-19, 11:25 PM
Wow. That sounds pretty cool... And I'm sure my GF will be interested to hear it, too. The will save not to play with their prey is pretty funny. :smallbiggrin:


Well, at least I'll have time to save up for the game, since we wouldn't be able to play until almost later in the Fall/early in the Winter due to everyone's crazy schedules... :smallsigh:

Slade
2009-10-20, 03:30 AM
I would describe Shadowrun as the following:

Dystopian Cyberpunk Fantasy.

Dystopian: With rise of corporate greed and the crumbling of governments, capitalism has gone wild and there are no laws requiring "fair play" and "government oversight". The Megas (and the AA's too) all compete with each other in a cold war over the bottom line. In the mess, poverty, starvation, disease, crime, racial hatred, and more has run rampant, with nothing to stop it. The future is only going to get worse, and no one is going to make it better.

Cyberpunk: Everything from Big Willie Gibson's Neuromancer is there, including the Matrix, Cybernetics, super fast networking speeds, etc... the punk comes from the lack of social order and no one wanting to enforce it. Therefore, social mores are what YOU decide them to be, f*ck you very much.

Fantasy: ELVES! ORCS! DRAGONS! MAGIC! any questions?

As for source material I would sell Shadowrun as a cross between:
Ronin, Heat, Boondock Saints, Smoking Aces: Small teams of skilled covert operators committing crimes for money.

GitS, Neuromancer: Cyberpunk at its finest.

Blade Runner, Total Recall, Robocop: A Dystopian future at its finest.

Cast a Deadly Spell, Dresden Files, Constantine: Hell I still watch Dresden Files as a primer. But, each figure magically active beings interacting in an urban environment. Good stuff.

Lycan 01
2009-10-20, 03:40 PM
I might pick up Shadowrun next time I get out to my local hobby shop. Possibly this weekend, but more likely next week. I was going to get the new Fallout 3: Game of the Year Edition since my original Fallout 3 got nom'd on by my 360, but one of my friends said I could borrow his copy of Fallout 3 for awhile. I thought it was nice of him - then I realized he just wanted me to get Shadowrun ASAP. :smallbiggrin:

So... yeah. I'm gonna pick up Shadowrun once I have the chance, and spend the next couple of weeks getting to know the system until we all have the chance to play. Woohoo!


Oh, and the friend who's lending me Fallout 3 is the guy who's tried to get me to play Shadowrun for AWHILE. He's the one off at college who can't come home that often, but he's still excited now that he has the chance to actually play Shadowrun. He told me he wanted to be the Infiltrator Guy - expert stealth and sniping abilities, plus demolitions and other important skills.

That brings our group up to:
-Shaman
-Face/Melee
-??
-Stealth/Gunslinger

Of course, he won't be able to play as often... So it'll mostly just be the other 3 players.

So with those three players, we've got Magic, Diplomacy, and Melee stuff covered. The Shaman has some gun skills, but she won't be an expert. So we're still a bit weak in the dakka dakka department. So... What would player 3 be best as in order to balance out the group? Because I have no idea what to suggest for him... :smalleek:

Lost Demiurge
2009-10-20, 04:17 PM
Street Samurai, man. Street Sam.

Cyber out the yinyang, guns and melee skills, and intimidation. Maybe a few useful contacts (Such as a hacker, or a detective, or a cop) to give him people to go to, so that he can help the group during the legwork phase.

Lycan 01
2009-10-20, 04:23 PM
Hm. This is true. But what about a Techie? :smallconfused: We don't have any sort of Hacker, Rigger, or Technomancer... And from what I've gathered, Techies are extremely useful, but don't have much combat prowess. Or do they?

NPCMook
2009-10-20, 04:27 PM
A Technomancer can be pretty broken if you have access to Unwired since they can hack things that don't have access ports :smalleek: Also Unwired has a sub Section called "To Mook, or Not to Mook" which pretty much talks about hand waving the Hacker/Rigger with an NPC of your own design

Lycan 01
2009-10-20, 04:32 PM
A Technomancer can be pretty broken if you have access to Unwired since they can hack things that don't have access ports :smalleek: Also Unwired has a sub Section called "To Mook, or Not to Mook" which pretty much talks about hand waving the Hacker/Rigger with an NPC of your own design


What's Unwired? An add-on or suppliment? :smallconfused:

Are you saying I should DMPC the Techie, or something along those lines?

NPCMook
2009-10-20, 04:38 PM
Unwired is an additional Rule book which focuses on Riggers, Deckers, and Technomancers. It also makes Technomancers slightly on par with a Decker.

You could DMPC one, or simply one of their contacts could be the techie.

Lycan 01
2009-10-20, 04:47 PM
Wait... What are the differences between Riggers, Deckers, and Technomancers? I thought a TM was just a Decker who could hack with his mind... What are their strengths and weaknesses? And which one(s) can use guns decently?

I'd rather not DMPC anything for this game. My work will be cut out for me enough as it is. :smalltongue:

kjones
2009-10-20, 05:36 PM
Hackers (Deckers is a 3rd edition term - hackers no longer use cyberdecks) are characters with the skills and equipment necessary to access computer systems that they shouldn't. Technomancers are similar, but they access the Matrix through magic (specifically, a phenomenon known as "resonance") - therefore, they don't use commlinks or hacking software. Instead, they use "complex forms", which are similar, but magic.

Flavor-wise, they're worlds apart, of course. One important distinction is equipment - not only do technomancers not need equipment, but having cyberware hinders their magical abilities. Another is that technomancers can summon and bind "sprites", which are a little bit like spirits, but for the Matrix, rather than reality.

"Rigger", in my mind, is more of a subcategory - it means someone who is focused on controlling drones. Hackers and technomancers can make good riggers with a few skill points in the right places - the result would be a character who can control or disable other people's drones. A rigger can also have their own drones, however; they don't just need to use other people's.

You are aware of the fact that Shadowrun is a skill-based system, rather than a class-based one, right? Most of these distinctions between different classes are pretty nebulous - the main thing is that magic characters can't be packing much in the way of cyberware, and cybered-up characters usually don't practice magic. Beyond that, you can mix and match to your pleasure.

EDIT: All of them can use guns decently, with the proper skill points.

NPCMook
2009-10-20, 06:30 PM
The only huge distinction is that a Technomancer is pretty heavy strung on Build points by the end of their creation, Also the Decker/Rigger will most likely have a better Biofeedback device than the Technomancer who is stuck using the Charisma, at the start of the game at least. Later in the game when the Technomancer starts Ascending and getting stuff like Multiprocessing and such they start becoming a bit crazy. Using Matrix Initiative + Initiative Passes in the meat world.

Lycan 01
2009-10-20, 06:42 PM
NPCMook... I can't even make a witty comment, that confused me so badly. :smalleek:


Hm... So third player might be best as a Hacker with some gun and Rigger skills, that way they've got Tech, vehicles, and ranged combat covered. Is that workable? :smallconfused:

NPCMook
2009-10-20, 07:04 PM
A Technomancer is pressed for spending build points since they have to buy a lot of stuff at Character creation. Deckers/Riggers can be a bit more lenient on where their points go. I know it doesn't make much sense, but that's the general consensus on them.

Later on a Technomancer can use their Matrix Initiative and Initiative Passes in the Real World. It's hard to explain... Sorry if it doesn't make that much sense x.x

I'd also like to recommend you snag a copy of Runner's Companion, at least for your friends who want to play something aside from a normal Metahuman.

Lycan 01
2009-10-20, 07:14 PM
So, a Hacker/Rigger needs more equipment, but they have more... liquidity. A Technomancer needs less equipment, but is more limited at first. Got it...



Well, I've only got 45 bucks, soooo... :smalltongue:


Quick question about GMing Shadowrun:

How do I present the game to them?

When they need to infiltrate a building or something, should I just lay out a big blueprint of the place to begin with, and then as they progress reveal enemy and security locations? Perhaps the blueprint should already have most of the baddies and security stuff on it to begin with, so they can be more strategic. Or should I just draw out the blueprints and stuff as they uncover it? :smallconfused:

Also, if I show them a camera on the map, should I let them know what its field of vision is, or just keep its fov and its spot rolls hidden? ... Nevermind, I think I know the answer to that. :smallamused:

comicshorse
2009-10-20, 07:15 PM
Hm... So third player might be best as a Hacker with some gun and Rigger skills, that way they've got Tech, vehicles, and ranged combat covered. Is that workable?

Sure, he'll tend to be a 'Jack-of-all-trades but master of none' character but he will be useful in loads of situations

Sophismata
2009-10-20, 07:31 PM
Don't force your final player into any role. If the team lacks a hacker, you can run one as an NPC they contract or have a good relationship with. Keep him physically separate, have him deal with searches, security checks, the whole shebang from wherever he is in the Matrix.

Indeed, there are plenty of examples of the freelance hacker in modern fiction.

Regarding the difference between technomancers and hackers... technomancers are worse. They don't have the build points to do anything but technomance at character creation, and they won't do it as well as a hacker. They make cool riggers, but the build points limitation tends to prevent them getting decent equipment (drones). Rules-wise, they're basically the wizards of the matrix, and that is fairly restricting.

Fortunately, Unwired introduces some great options for technomancers who undergo a process known as submersion - it's in the core book, but Unwired expands on the special powers available. This allows technomancers to excel in unique (and really cool) ways, and makes them very competitive with (and in many ways superior to) hackers, which is a Good Thing.

Personally, I'd change the Unwired powers into adept-esque technomancer abilites, and keep the submersion abilites as the core book magic-equivalents, but for the time being all you really need to know is that hackers are much easier to create, and will leave the player with other, non-hacker things they can do.


(As an aside, I've only ever seen combat as necessary when things Go Wrong. Sadly, this is most of the time (why doesn't it ever go smooth?))

comicshorse
2009-10-20, 07:40 PM
(why doesn't it ever go smooth?))


" In any given job there are a hundred things that can go wrong. If you're a genius you can think of fifty of them. And you son, are no genius "

Words for Shadowrunners to live by

Kaun
2009-10-20, 07:58 PM
So, a Hacker/Rigger needs more equipment, but they have more... liquidity. A Technomancer needs less equipment, but is more limited at first. Got it...



Well, I've only got 45 bucks, soooo... :smalltongue:


Quick question about GMing Shadowrun:

How do I present the game to them?

When they need to infiltrate a building or something, should I just lay out a big blueprint of the place to begin with, and then as they progress reveal enemy and security locations? Perhaps the blueprint should already have most of the baddies and security stuff on it to begin with, so they can be more strategic. Or should I just draw out the blueprints and stuff as they uncover it? :smallconfused:

Also, if I show them a camera on the map, should I let them know what its field of vision is, or just keep its fov and its spot rolls hidden? ... Nevermind, I think I know the answer to that. :smallamused:

If its there first time playing shadowrun and there main background is DnD i would keep it simple till they learn a few harsh realities of the shadows. DnD players when they first hit shadowrun tend to not worry about there escape plans or fear combat enough for there own safty.

You are probably beter of keeping the first session or two as simple things like sorting out a local gang who is hasseling one of there contacts or causing a little mayhem at a low importance mini corp factory as a distraction for a real run preformed by another team.

I also find that there first combat should have them kicking ass against a bunch of unorganised goons to make them feel good about them selfs.

There second combat should be against a team who work a bit smarter to teach them that getting shot at is never a good idea and cover and ambush are a runners best friend.

NPCMook
2009-10-20, 07:59 PM
" In any given job there are a hundred things that can go wrong. If you're a genius you can think of fifty of them. And you son, are no genius "

Words for Shadowrunners to live by

I thought the words they live by is "Trust no one" and "Never believe its going to be 'easy'"

Lycan 01
2009-10-20, 08:08 PM
I won't force anyone to be anything. But I feel like a well-rounded team would be good to have... :-/

Actually, they'll be starting out as just a couple of young street punks - low-level cyberware, not much magic, et cetera. The part of town they've grown up in has gotten shadier and shadier over time, and crime has become a big problem recently. After their characters are introduced and they get the hang of the setting, they'll suddenly find themselves witnessing a robbery at a store they frequently visit. The majority of the first session will involve them trying to handle the situation - they can barge up in there and shoot it out, mess with the thugs' getaway car in various ways and for various purposes, ambush them as they leave the store or get in the car, follow them back to their base, et cetera...

More than likely, the second session will involve them getting down to business. They'll probably be tasked with taking out a gang leader or something, and the mission will involve sneaking into a street gang safe house and assassinating said big bad(s). There'll probably be light security - a few guards, one or two cameras, and maybe a junky gun turret. This'll give them a bit of a challenge, and allow them to learn how to deal with infiltration and stuff.

Or they might think outside the box - I'll have several oportunities for them to do so. Stealing outfits, posing as new recruits, briding police, starting a gang war... They'll just have to figure it out for themselves. :smalltongue:


How does that sound? :smallconfused:

comicshorse
2009-10-20, 08:10 PM
I thought the words they live by is "Trust no one" and "Never believe its going to be 'easy'"

Those too. Also :
' Never deal with a Dragon'
" Always count the money first'
" Keep your laser handy.......oops, maybe not that one

chiasaur11
2009-10-20, 08:42 PM
I think any habits of highly successful pirates would at least be worth considering.

Only once things go very wrong, of course, but...

comicshorse
2009-10-20, 08:50 PM
More than likely, the second session will involve them getting down to business. They'll probably be tasked with taking out a gang leader or something, and the mission will involve sneaking into a street gang safe house and assassinating said big bad(s). There'll probably be light security - a few guards, one or two cameras, and maybe a junky gun turret. This'll give them a bit of a challenge, and allow them to learn how to deal with infiltration and stuff.


All sounds good but how about having the boss protected by a paranatural critter he's tamed. After all the urban sci-fi violence the fantasy side of Shadowrun should come as a nice shock to the P.Cs and get them into the swing of things in the Sixth Worls.

Just a thought

Raum
2009-10-20, 08:58 PM
How do I present the game to them?

When they need to infiltrate a building or something, should I just lay out a big blueprint of the place to begin with, and then as they progress reveal enemy and security locations? Perhaps the blueprint should already have most of the baddies and security stuff on it to begin with, so they can be more strategic. Or should I just draw out the blueprints and stuff as they uncover it? :smallconfused:

Also, if I show them a camera on the map, should I let them know what its field of vision is, or just keep its fov and its spot rolls hidden? ... Nevermind, I think I know the answer to that. :smallamused:If they're smart, they'll have purchased, stolen, or otherwise acquired building and security plans. Depending on where they got them, they may or may not be complete and / or accurate. But no experienced runner will go in cold. They'll do as much legwork as they can to get information and, if they're lucky or good enough, even set up an 'in' (bribed guard, forged passes, etc).

Mind, some have to learn the hard way...

It's not the same style as D&D though. For the most part you'll want to toss the 'dungeon crawl' mentality out. It's replaced by a mix of information control* and tactical planning.

*Information control covers both gathering information and what information they allow to slip out. Tell the wrong person you're looking for plans to Mitsuhama's 4th St Lab complex and that information will be resold. This is one reason contacts contacts play a big part...you have to know who to trust. :smallsmile:

Lycan 01
2009-10-20, 09:00 PM
Actually, I was thinking the big bad would be a mage of some sort. That way they'd have a tough but fun intro to fighting magic, and it'd be a shocking and dramatic ending.

Or should I go ahead and have a couple of the guards be low level mages, and the big bad be a heavily cybered street samurai sort of guy with some sort of paranormal or monsterous protection.

How tough are mages as enemies? I mean, would a low-level mage be a push-over, a challenge, or a real threat to them, since they wouldn't be all that strong themselves? And what sort of paranatural creature(s) would you suggest?

So yeah, should big bad be some sort of magic using dude, or a street samurai with some magical or monsterous protection? :smallconfused:

comicshorse
2009-10-20, 09:13 PM
How tough are mages as enemies? I mean, would a low-level mage be a push-over, a challenge, or a real threat to them, since they wouldn't be all that strong themselves?


How tough he is is entirelly up to you. How high you make his skills and Stats, does he have any spell-locks, what spells has he learned. All are variables that can be tweaked to make him as tough as you want. As a general rule however a spell kills you as dead as any bullet and there's no body armour against spells, so a low-level Mage would be a tough opponent for a starting group


And what sort of paranatural creature(s) would you suggest?

Barghests and Hell-Hounds are both trainable and in the basic book, so one of them would be a good choice. Though there are plenty of other Paranaturals to play with if you buy the relevent book


Or should I go ahead and have a couple of the guards be low level mages,

Magic users are fairly rare in Shadowrun. I believe only one in a thousand has the Magus gene. So while a Mage could be running a small gang the chances of him having two mages on the payroll are pretty small. O fcourse anybody can have Cyberware and a big gun:smallsmile:

Sophismata
2009-10-20, 09:13 PM
How does that sound? :smallconfused:

Really good.

kjones
2009-10-20, 09:21 PM
Mages can be challenging opponents if you don't have access to magic, since spirits are not particularly vulnerable to physical attack. However, mages are very squishy, so how dangerous one is depends on the circumstances.


Actually, I was thinking the big bad would be a mage of some sort. That way they'd have a tough but fun intro to fighting magic, and it'd be a shocking and dramatic ending.

Or should I go ahead and have a couple of the guards be low level mages, and the big bad be a heavily cybered street samurai sort of guy with some sort of paranormal or monsterous protection.

How tough are mages as enemies? I mean, would a low-level mage be a push-over, a challenge, or a real threat to them, since they wouldn't be all that strong themselves? And what sort of paranatural creature(s) would you suggest?

So yeah, should big bad be some sort of magic using dude, or a street samurai with some magical or monsterous protection? :smallconfused:

Lycan 01
2009-10-20, 09:26 PM
How tough he is is entirelly up to you. How high you make his skills and Stats, does he have any spell-locks, what spells has he learned. All are variables that can be tweaked to make him as tough as you want. As a general rule however a spell kills you as dead as any bullet and there's no body armour against spells, so a low-level Mage would be a tough opponent for a starting group

Magic users are fairly rare in Shadowrun. I believe only one in a thousand has the Magus gene. So while a Mage could be running a small gang the chances of him having two mages on the payroll are pretty small. O fcourse anybody can have Cyberware and a big gun:smallsmile:


Hm. I think I'll make the big bad a mage of some sort, then. I'll probably give him decent weapon skills, a few cybernetics, and other mods, too. It'll make him more intimidating and all that, but also weaken him a bit since he won't be too focused on any one thing. That way he'll put up a challenge, but he won't eat the party for breakfast, either.

The guards around the house will mostly be thugs with low-level modifications and weapons. A few of them will be a step up, though, with better upgrades and weapons. But like I said earlier, there will also be security cameras around the house, as well as a junky gun turret. Actually... The cameras will be junky, but the turret will be relatively decent. Perhaps the product of all the robberies and ill-gotten income they've procured. At any rate, the cameras are cruddy, so they'll be easily hackable. This'll give them the introduction to hacking they'll need. Once they have that figured out, I'll give 'em a shock at hacking the turret. If they succeed, they can turn it off. If they succeed very well, they might even be able to reprogram it. :smallwink:



So, ya'll really think these are good ideas? Sweetness... Hopefully they'll work out decently.

Raum
2009-10-20, 09:27 PM
How tough are mages as enemies? I mean, would a low-level mage be a push-over, a challenge, or a real threat to them, since they wouldn't be all that strong themselves?A mage, played well, can be one of the toughest opponents in the game. Played poorly, they're just a different type of 'gunslinger'. However, mages are rare in the setting...you won't see one playing 'low level guard'. They'll be the backup called in when the guards can't handle something...or they'll be guarding very high value targets. :)


And what sort of paranatural creature(s) would you suggest?

So yeah, should big bad be some sort of magic using dude, or a street samurai with some magical or monsterous protection? :smallconfused:Magic isn't as prevalent in SR as it is in most D&D settings...Dark Sun being the possible exception. I'd go with completely non-magical opponents for the first few runs. Let 'em get their feet wet before you hit them with the big guns. :smallwink:

Sophismata
2009-10-20, 09:52 PM
However, mages are very squishy, so how dangerous one is depends on the circumstances.

Mages aren't really squishy. At least, most combat mages I've seen had full body armour, not to mention the spells and/or spirits protecting them.

Lost Demiurge
2009-10-21, 09:03 AM
This. A million times this. Mages in SR can were any armor they like, and then slap armor spells on top of that.

And god forbid the mage know heal... he can summon high end spirits and then take drain damage... then heal it up later.

Ah, no.

Drain damage cannot be healed by magical means. Pretty sure that's a rule in the main book. If it's not, then it's a house rule in every sane campaign I've ever run or been in.

kjones
2009-10-21, 06:03 PM
First of all, Heal usually takes some time to cast - it's not Cure Light Wounds by a long shot. Second of all, it only heals Physical damage - isn't Drain damage Stun? (Unless it overflows of course, but then you're right back to being squishy.)

comicshorse
2009-10-21, 06:04 PM
Even if you can Heal drain damage its normally Stun which can't be healed. Or if you're pyscho enough to be doing physical damage Drain ( assuming you don't die) you're then stuck with the wound penalties to screw up the Drain your taking to try to heal the Drain you just took:smallsmile:

Damn beaten to it

Lost Demiurge
2009-10-21, 06:09 PM
I'm pretty sure that physical damage caused by drain can only be healed by mundane means.

Heh. Still, I once ran for a combat mage PC who would cast until he got his stun track somewhat filled, then deliberately overcast so that he was risking his physical track instead.

Nearly got him dead when the enemy started focusing on him now and then, but it let him be a dynamo of deadly spells for a few rounds. Came in handy once or twice...

Lycan 01
2009-10-21, 06:47 PM
Um... I think I owe TheCountAlucard an apology. I seem to have hijacked his thread. :smalleek:


So, what sort of magic, cyberware, and other goodies should a gang boss have? :smallconfused: Nothing specific, but just a general idea of what directions I should head in when I start working on the game... I can't decide if I want him to be more physical, or more magical. So what would you guys suggest?


Btw... Is there any sort of regenerative ability or upgrade or anything you can get? :smallconfused: Maybe passive healing, or easy recovery, or anything like that? I had a random idea for a character if/when I actually played... I also trust that it is possible to dual-wield swords skillfully. Is there any sort of knife throwing ability, as well? *wonders who will get the reference first*

comicshorse
2009-10-21, 07:03 PM
Btw... Is there any sort of regenerative ability or upgrade or anything you can get? Maybe passive healing, or easy recovery, or anything like that? I had a random idea for a character if/when I actually played...


Regeneration is damn difficult to get in Shadowrun, after all the game is meant to be deadly if you get hit. The only way I think to get it is to play one of the Infected ( Vampire,Banshee, etc) or a Shapeshifter. Rules for which can be found in the Runner Comapnion ( do I love that book, yes I do)


I also trust that it is possible to dual-wield swords skillfully. Is there any sort of knife throwing ability, as well? *wonders who will get the reference first*

There is a throwing weapons skill that applies to all thrown weapons. Dual weilding will be possible but probably not recommended unless you're pretty skillfull


what sort of magic, cyberware, and other goodies should a gang boss have?


Interesting question. As a lot of the money the gang generates is going to him he should be a step-up from the average street-punk. I'd suggest a heavy pistol ( Ares Predator is always good), armour jacket and a couple of grenades. Maybe a submachinegun. Smartgun linked of course
Cyberware wise a Smartgunlink is a must, Cybereyes with low-light and Thermo. If you're feeling generous then a level of Wired Reflexes for speed and maybe some bone lacing for durability

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-21, 07:29 PM
Um... I think I owe TheCountAlucard an apology. I seem to have hijacked his thread.Not really, considering that I myself hijacked the thread the instant I stopped GMing Shadowrun and started playing it instead...

Lycan 01
2009-10-21, 07:57 PM
Regeneration is damn difficult to get in Shadowrun, after all the game is meant to be deadly if you get hit. The only way I think to get it is to play one of the Infected ( Vampire,Banshee, etc) or a Shapeshifter. Rules for which can be found in the Runner Comapnion ( do I love that book, yes I do)
---
There is a throwing weapons skill that applies to all thrown weapons. Dual weilding will be possible but probably not recommended unless you're pretty skillfull
---
Interesting question. As a lot of the money the gang generates is going to him he should be a step-up from the average street-punk. I'd suggest a heavy pistol ( Ares Predator is always good), armour jacket and a couple of grenades. Maybe a submachinegun. Smartgun linked of course
Cyberware wise a Smartgunlink is a must, Cybereyes with low-light and Thermo. If you're feeling generous then a level of Wired Reflexes for speed and maybe some bone lacing for durability


Dang. What about extra resilience, magical protection, or other ways of making yourself more durable?

Hm. Do melee weapons and skills ever even come in handy that much? :smallconfused:


I see... What about magic?


I think the way I'll have it set up is like this:

Two floor residence

First floor:
Front door and a back door, both locked, and both with security cameras. There'll be a guard on the porch, as well as a guard in the backyard. Inside will be a few rooms, including a kitchen, living room, bathroom, bedroom... There will be a few thugs present, maybe drinking in the kitchen and/or playing poker in the living room. There's a security turret in the living room. In the kitchen, the players can find a loose gas pipe (:smallwink:) and the fuse box, which can be hacked in order to mess with the cameras and turret. I might also stick a rival gang member in a closet somewhere - his purpose is currently undecided.

Second floor:
This is the big bad's lair. Some stairs on the first floor lead up to it, an naturally the door is locked. Its a large open room, with several sofas, chairs, televisions, tables, entertainment systems, and other objects scattered around the room. His ill-gotten gains now serve as cover in the pitched battle that will ensue as the Shadowrunners barge in to finish their mission. Once the fight is over, some of the stuff in the room (that hasn't been shot or otherwise destroyed) might be lootable. There will also be a safe containing money from recent robberies - returning it to its rightful owners will earn them Karma.


What do ya'll think? :smallbiggrin:

comicshorse
2009-10-21, 08:26 PM
Dang. What about extra resilience, magical protection, or other ways of making yourself more durable?


Not a problem. There is cyberware that can turn your skin to armour, or amour inserts that can be implanted under the skin.
Magic wise there's always the armour spell. Though that will make him very tough if he stacks it with regular armour. ( though of course he will either have to maintain the spell which is a penalty to his other actions or have a spell lock). Similarly there is the Increase Body spell.


Hm. Do melee weapons and skills ever even come in handy that much?

Yes because :
(1) Blades are quiet
(2) Blades don't jam or blow up in your hand if the enemy has a Spirit use Accident on you
(3) Most armour is less effective against melee than against bullets
(4) At high levels it is possible to enchant blades but not guns ( or at least its much harder)
(5) Spirits are much more vulnerable to blades than to guns
(6) Melee weapons are SOOOOO much cooler


I see... What about magic?


The basic book has Archetypes that can be used. They tend to be underdesigned but if you're putting him up against a low-powered group they should work. For magical guys the 'Street Shaman' or 'Gunslinger Adept' seem appropriate.

Lycan 01
2009-10-21, 08:32 PM
What sort of magic should I give the big bad? :smalltongue:

comicshorse
2009-10-21, 08:37 PM
Yeah sorry that became obvious after I re-read your post.:smallredface:
Mages tend to be more in need of proper training which is unlikely for a ganger.
So a Shaman with an urban totem, maybe Rat or Dog. With some spirits hanging around his lair as back-up
Or a Physical Adept with the physical powers to intimidate the rest of the gang into following his leadership
See also previous posts about Archetypes

Lycan 01
2009-10-21, 08:40 PM
Physical adept sounds most likely. What sort of powers would that entail?

And how powerful are spirits, actually? I would go with the shaman idea, but I'm under the impression that spirits are extremely powerful, and might be too much of a challenge to the poor players...

comicshorse
2009-10-21, 08:45 PM
Physical Adept powers are very varied and you can make up your own. However the basic ones improve your Initiative, improve your Physical stats, give you extra dice in physical skills ( especially combat ones), give you sensory enhancements that are better than cybernetic ones and turn your skin to armour.

Spirits are as powerful as the magician wants them to be. You can have easily summoned spirits that could barely kill a cat ( but are always great for recon) that you can summon without breaking sweat to ones that can flip cars, providing your willing to risk Draining yourself to death to summon them


EDIT
Note when I refer to Basic Physical Adept powers you don't get all of them. I'm just refering to the most common ones. Adept powers are purchased at character creation and you get as many as you have points in your Magic Stats. The better the power the more it costs

Lycan 01
2009-10-21, 08:51 PM
Ah... Well, since he's already got the submachine gun and cybernetics, maybe a Spririt or two and some magic powers might balance it out...

How difficult are spirits to kill, btw? :smallconfused: Aren't they invisible?


If I'm lucky, I should be able to pick the rulebook up Friday afternoon. :smallbiggrin: Unfortunately, I don't think we'll be able to play until the middle of next month at the earliest... That'll give me plenty of time to learn the system, though. *coughcoughandmaybeplaytestitonherecough*

Slade
2009-10-21, 08:56 PM
For adepts, I would stick with Magic 5, and streight forward combat monkey.

Increase Reaction, Increase Reflexes, Increase Agility.

Basically, hes really fast, and puts bullets into people. Easy 'nuff. Try and build him on 400 BP and hes a challenge for a starting party.

comicshorse
2009-10-21, 08:56 PM
Ah... Well, since he's already got the submachine gun and cybernetics, maybe a Spririt or two and some magic powers might balance it out...

Remember cyberware eats essence and your magic can only ever equal your essence. The more cyberware the worse the magician. Cyberware can be worth it but its a trade off for the power the magician loses


How difficult are spirits to kill, btw? Aren't they invisible?

Again kinda depends on the strength of the spirit. However all spirits have relative protection against guns, so you really need to melee the big ones
Spirits can travel in ASTRAL SPACE, whcih exists alongside mundane reality. While there they are completely untouchable and invisible by mundane means though they also can't hurt anybody in reality ( though they can spy on them real good). Outside astral they are as obvious as anybody else

And so to bed, night all

Lycan 01
2009-10-21, 09:00 PM
Alright, thanks guys. I think I've got plenty of information to work with now. Thank you very much for the help. :smallbiggrin:


So... Anybody got any funny or cool Shadowrun stories to share?

Slade
2009-10-21, 09:02 PM
Another idea for mages and the like is to "team up" with someone that does not require massive amounts of BP to be put into stats.

So, your Magic 6 dude can team up with the rigger (who is all cash and skills) and you can have him pay for your gear and be the freeloading magic buddy. :smallsmile:

Remember that medium lifestyle is 5k or 5.5k for two people. Seems like a deal to me... just remember to spring for the deepweed....

Lycan 01
2009-10-21, 09:13 PM
So... Are you saying that the big bad should be a mage, with a rigger being in charge of security and finances and stuff? Or is that advice for if I try to make my own character? :smallconfused:

Slade
2009-10-21, 09:14 PM
Own character, but hey, someone had to have the idea first...

Sophismata
2009-10-21, 11:26 PM
Drain damage cannot be healed artificially. It's an actual rule (for those wondering).

Throwing weapons are very powerful - they are silent, immune to Accidents and in the hands of an adept exceedingly deadly.

Dual wielding is possible, but not recommended. It's mostly ineffective save for specific needs / situations.


Regarding cyberware and magic - while cyberware does eat magic, it can still be a worthwhile trade-off. Furthermore, a ganger might not have the forethought to properly consider the affects of 'ware on his awakened capabilities.

Finally, while mages generally need some training, everyone has access to the internet.

Lycan 01
2009-10-22, 12:14 PM
Okay, one last question.

What's the difference between the regular 4e rulebook, and the 20th Anniversary edition? :smallconfused:

To my knowledge, the 20th Annv. edition is better organized, and comes with some extra goodies. But its also more expensive.

I'm going to call my local Hobbytown in a little bit, and ask which one they have. I know they have the regular edition, but I'm not sure if they carry the 20th Annv. one. They might have to order than one in for me... But if the only differences are organization and price, I don't see why I shouldn't go with the regular 4e rulebook.

Lost Demiurge
2009-10-22, 01:13 PM
Eh, the anniversary edition IS better organized and has some good flavor fiction... But there's nothing huge that's been changed.

It's got the equivalent of a couple years of errata for SR4 in it, but it's nothing you can't piece together or live without. Oh, and some of the adept powers have different costs, but that's a minor issue at best.

Go for the regular book, if money's an issue.

comicshorse
2009-10-22, 08:02 PM
Posted by Sophismata

Finally, while mages generally need some training, everyone has access to the internet.

Ouch, I'm not saying it can't be done but I wouldn't want to be arounbd that Mage when he's casting a spell. Sounds like an invitation to appear on 'WHEN MAGES EXPLODE'

Posted by Lycan 01

So... Anybody got any funny or cool Shadowrun stories to share?

Well since you gave me an excuse.
Shadowrun game way back when and I'm playing a home-brewed Vampire P.C. (this is before rules for Vampires existed). My character is passing himself to the group as a Physical Adept.
Anyway the group is joined by a new player, playing a Cat Shaman. It soon becomes obvious his characters idea of teamwork is to cast an Invisbility spell on himself then hide behind the rest of the group. Even in one encounter, hiding iin a buildings air vent until the combat is over.
I don't think much of this and am not shy about letting him know.
Anyway by some minor miracle we succed and meet up with our Mr. Johnson to get paid. He pays us and walks out the bar at which second the Cat Shaman declares he's casting a spell at me. I'm totally off-guard so the G.M. rules he gets a free shot.
In a gloating tone he declares he's not saving anything to resist the Drain he's pouring everything he has into his highest level combat spell intending to kill me before I can react. He picks up his dice, points at me dramitically and declares the spell he's using : " Slay Human" :smallsmile:
Needless to say his spell does absolutely nothing and he eats the Drain and gets royally fragged up. Initiative is won easily as he's reeling from wound penalaties. My character gives him a big vampire grin and rips his throat out.
Never saw that player again suprisingly

Lycan 01
2009-10-22, 08:31 PM
I'm picking up Shadowrun on the way home from school tommorrow. Woohoo! :smallbiggrin: I'm getting the regular 4e edition, so hopefully it won't cost more than 45 bucks. If I have some cash left over, I should probably pick up a D6 box, just to be safe...



Posted by Sophismata
Sounds like an invitation to appear on 'WHEN MAGES EXPLODE'

That is now the number one show on tv in my Shadowrun world. :smallbiggrin:



Well since you gave me an excuse.
Shadowrun game way back when and I'm playing a home-brewed Vampire P.C. (this is before rules for Vampires existed). My character is passing himself to the group as a Physical Adept.
Anyway the group is joined by a new player, playing a Cat Shaman. It soon becomes obvious his characters idea of teamwork is to cast an Invisbility spell on himself then hide behind the rest of the group. Even in one encounter, hiding iin a buildings air vent until the combat is over.
I don't think much of this and am not shy about letting him know.
Anyway by some minor miracle we succed and meet up with our Mr. Johnson to get paid. He pays us and walks out the bar at which second the Cat Shaman declares he's casting a spell at me. I'm totally off-guard so the G.M. rules he gets a free shot.
In a gloating tone he declares he's not saving anything to resist the Drain he's pouring everything he has into his highest level combat spell intending to kill me before I can react. He picks up his dice, points at me dramitically and declares the spell he's using : " Slay Human" :smallsmile:
Needless to say his spell does absolutely nothing and he eats the Drain and gets royally fragged up. Initiative is won easily as he's reeling from wound penalaties. My character gives him a big vampire grin and rips his throat out.
Never saw that player again suprisingly

Wow. How rude. :smalltongue: I mean, you can't really be mad at him, since I hear betrayel is part of Shadowrun... But he had no reason to quit the game entirely - he dug his own grave. That's just being a sore loser...

kjones
2009-10-22, 09:38 PM
In a gloating tone he declares he's not saving anything to resist the Drain he's pouring everything he has into his highest level combat spell intending to kill me before I can react.

This is a hilarious story, but runners take heed: this is one of the dumbest things you can do. You should only be risking life-threatening amounts of drain if the alternative is worse - not because "Hey guise check out this huge fireball I can make!". Good mages learn to manage drain carefully - their stun boxes are a resource to be allocated, just like any other.

Slade
2009-10-22, 10:12 PM
Well since you gave me an excuse.
Shadowrun game way back when and I'm playing a home-brewed Vampire P.C. (this is before rules for Vampires existed). My character is passing himself to the group as a Physical Adept.
Anyway the group is joined by a new player, playing a Cat Shaman. It soon becomes obvious his characters idea of teamwork is to cast an Invisbility spell on himself then hide behind the rest of the group. Even in one encounter, hiding iin a buildings air vent until the combat is over.
I don't think much of this and am not shy about letting him know.
Anyway by some minor miracle we succed and meet up with our Mr. Johnson to get paid. He pays us and walks out the bar at which second the Cat Shaman declares he's casting a spell at me. I'm totally off-guard so the G.M. rules he gets a free shot.
In a gloating tone he declares he's not saving anything to resist the Drain he's pouring everything he has into his highest level combat spell intending to kill me before I can react. He picks up his dice, points at me dramitically and declares the spell he's using : " Slay Human" :smallsmile:
Needless to say his spell does absolutely nothing and he eats the Drain and gets royally fragged up. Initiative is won easily as he's reeling from wound penalaties. My character gives him a big vampire grin and rips his throat out.
Never saw that player again suprisingly

Hey CountAlucard, does this sound like that guy we kicked out of our games? Not the vamp, the pissy cat shaman.... "flashbacks"

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-22, 10:37 PM
Say, Lycan, did you read the Shadowrun C.L.U.E. files? They're a fairly excellent source of entertaining "stuff-went-BAD" Shadowrun stories.

Hope you enjoy the game, man! :smallcool:

...

...

...

Oh, jeez, I don't think I updated you guys for Monday's session! :smalleek:

It's been a few days, so my memory is fuzzy, but if I'm seriously wrong on anything, Slade can jump in with the correct details.

The session began with us in Hawaii. We actually used Google Maps and Wikipedia to get some data on the real observatory on which our adventure is based (for those who don't remember, we're stealing a nigh-unique lens, the likes of which there are only ten nine in the world, so that Brutus can begin work on an orbital laser).

I'm posing as a moderately-wealthy vacationer, Motoko is pretending to be my not-too-bright wife, the Shaman is our accountant (with whom my "wife" is cheating), Slade is a security consultant, Kronz our bodyguard, and Darius is a Matrix specialist. That's our story and we're stickin' to it. :smalltongue:

While we go about planning, our elven Shaman makes plans to seduce elven babes at the beach. He ends up getting with an elf poser (while we gamers make crude jokes).

Anyway, in the week leading up to our heist, Motoko and Darius get their hands on various data, including security procedures, tour times, and some pretty awesome star charts. Darius also builds a Signal 8 wireless device to plant in the observatory, since the distance between the observatory and the nearest city is measured in tens of miles. We arrange for a private tour at five in the morning; we even rent a limo for the occasion to maintain the illusion. While on the tour, Motoko asks some rather insipid questions to keep the tour guide (who just happens to be the elf poser from before) distracted from noticing the somewhat-suspicious questions, like when we ask where the special lens goes when the telescope is being cleaned (f.y.i., it has a special case, since the lens happens to be excessively delicate).

Slade's character goes to the bathroom and plants the wireless device. We have a small meal at the end of the tour; Slade gives one of his miniature stealth ninja drones a ketchup packet to stealthily smear on the telescope, so we can see the procedure for ourselves, just to make sure. Just for the fun of it, I picked up a "Cosmic Horror digital pet."

Anyway, once we're safely back in the city, we use the Signal 8 device to hack their systems. Our plan is to make the computers think that the telescope needs cleaning the next day, and to then trigger the fire alarm once the lens is in its case. Of course, the party has me visit the telescope-cleaning employees at home and bribe them into leaving the case in a convenient, easy-to-steal place in the event of an emergency. I bribe one 5000 nuyen to leave the case in said convenient location, and then tell the other that I bribed the first 3000, and offer him 2000 to make sure he follows through with it... and then tell the party that I bribed them both 5000 each. :smallamused:

The plan works surprisingly well; Slade and Kronz stealth in and swipe the case from its spot with no trouble, and then we fly back to Seattle. Since the lens is so delicate, the case goes unopened until it's in Brutus' hands. He opens it, and to our relief, the lens is safely in place.

The session ended with me giving Sticks (my fixer) the souvenir Cosmic Horror digital pet. ("Wh-what is it doing to that girl?" :smallbiggrin:)

Lycan 01
2009-10-22, 10:51 PM
Awesome. :smallbiggrin: I can't believe that whole thing went off without a hitch. I guess that was the 1-in-10 game where nothing goes wrong, huh? Heh heh...

A Cosmic Horror digital pet, you say? What is that, like a pixelated Cthulhu or something? :smalltongue:

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-22, 10:59 PM
A Cosmic Horror digital pet, you say? What is that, like a pixelated Cthulhu or something?Pretty much, yeah. :smallamused:

Slade
2009-10-22, 11:16 PM
While we go about planning, our elven Shaman makes plans to seduce elven babes at the beach. He ends up getting with an elf poser (while we gamers make crude jokes).

Isn't that what we do?

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-23, 12:28 AM
Isn't that what we do?Naturally, but I felt like it needed mentioning. On that note, he also made it with her a second time, while the rest of us were eating lunch.

Lots of fun ahead, people; the whole "orbital laser" thing is probably going to be a real hassle.

Slade
2009-10-23, 02:56 PM
Let me go into detail about said orbital laser.

Sure, they get one put up there; that's going to be a hell of some shadowruns.

However, like I mentioned to the Tachicoma Building, Satellite-putter-upper-therer guy, Ares controls space, and you can bet they will not take this affront to their monopoly very lightly.

At the minimum, expect them to shoot it down; at worst, they can expect them to try and capture it and the base its launched from.

BTW, while we are on this topic, anyone got any ideas what kind of ARES shenanigans I can pull in the game?

comicshorse
2009-10-23, 07:25 PM
However, like I mentioned to the Tachicoma Building, Satellite-putter-upper-therer guy, Ares controls space, and you can bet they will not take this affront to their monopoly very lightly.

At the minimum, expect them to shoot it down; at worst, they can expect them to try and capture it and the base its launched from.

Absolutely agreed . I must admit I was assuming the P.C.s had already figured out the only way they were going to do this was to get it snuck aboard somebody else's satellite.
That said once its used the game is up and its lifespan will be measured in minutes. Have the P.C.s a plan what they are going to do with it or did they just hink it would be cool to have their own orbital laser


BTW, while we are on this topic, anyone got any ideas what kind of ARES shenanigans I can pull in the game?

Ares maintains several elite combat teams called the Firewatch teams. As well as various black ops the Firewatch teams are deployed against threats to the public order ( terrorists, toxic shamans, insect hives, etc). Partially to help out Knight Errant and partially for the PR.
A nasty trick is to have Ares hire the P.Cs through a fixer to investigate some threat. It saves them time and means the P.Cs are the one's to trigger any retalitaition while the Firewatch team stands back and takes notes on how tough the bad guys are.
In our game we where hired to investigate a gang which Ares suspected of being an Insect hive. It was and we managed to broker a alliance of Shadowrunners and Organized Crime to assault the Hive and deal with this threat. In an epic battle we squashed the Hive and retired to celebrate only to discover the T.V. breaking the news of how a gallant Firewatch team had destroyed a Wasp hive and saved the city. Gits:smallmad:

( N.B. If going up against Insect spirits, find out which and synthezise tons of antidote to their venom. The anti-Wasp venom saved about a third of the assault force including two of the P.Cs)

Slade
2009-10-25, 02:57 AM
Have the P.C.s a plan what they are going to do with it or did they just think it would be cool to have their own orbital laser?

Think it would be cool for them to have an orbital laser.

I know about the Firewatch, but if they (i.e. the players) make their company AA corp, then Ares (legally) can't touch them. That is what they are shooting for. The AA corp story arc is their characters retirement party. After that story wraps up, their old characters are contacts.

And, mega props for the anti toxin idea.

Kaun
2009-10-25, 03:37 AM
I am fairly sure the entire basis of Shadowrun is corps getting around things they cant "legally" do lol.

Lycan 01
2009-10-25, 05:59 PM
I got Shadowrun! :smallbiggrin:

Man, oh man... This game looks fun! My friend, the third player, came over for some Warhammer 40K, and afterwards we actually went ahead and made his character.

Our team now consists of:
Ditzy Catgirl Face with diplomacy and melee skills
Jaded Cheetah-man Shaman with magic and unarmed skills
Homosexual Elf Hacker with hacking and gun skills

I'd say that's a pretty well-balanced and interesting party, wouldn't you agree? :smalltongue:


I have a couple of questions, though. Off the top of my head...

If a Shaman uses Astral Vision, they stay in their physical body, but can see things in the astral world. They can even attack things in the astral world, if they have the abilities for it. They can also see the mirrored Astral Auras of living creatures in the Phycical World. Now my question is... in the Astral World, can you see Auras through obstacles? Lets say you're on one side of a fence, and you want to know if somebody is on the other side. Can you use Astral Vision to see an Aura through the fence, or would you have to use Astral Projection to go around the barrier and check?

My next question involves PANs and the Matrix. In the book, it says when you're on a Node, you can see other PANs currently accessing the same node. So lets say the Node covers a few buildings. If you checked the Node, it would list the PANs of everyone in those buildings currently accessing the Matrix, correct? To my knowledge, the PAN is the equivalent of a Screen Name, with optional personal info attached to it. So my question is two-fold:
-Do you see the PANs of people who are accessing the Matrix, or everyone with a currently activated PAN for any reason, such as a Commlink?
-Can a Hacker narrow down the locations of said PANs? Like... could he discover how many people are in Building A, or even what floors/rooms they are in? If so, is it a passive thing from accessing the Node, or do they need programs and skills for it?

kjones
2009-10-25, 08:42 PM
My next question involves PANs and the Matrix. In the book, it says when you're on a Node, you can see other PANs currently accessing the same node. So lets say the Node covers a few buildings. If you checked the Node, it would list the PANs of everyone in those buildings currently accessing the Matrix, correct? To my knowledge, the PAN is the equivalent of a Screen Name, with optional personal info attached to it. So my question is two-fold:
-Do you see the PANs of people who are accessing the Matrix, or everyone with a currently activated PAN for any reason, such as a Commlink?
Unfortunately, I'm not sure "accessing" a node is a well-defined term - are you accessing a node when you're actively connecting to it, or is it sufficient to just have your commlink running in active mode? I would say it's the former, but the fact that you can get AROs even if you're not accessing a node would support the latter.

I feel like the former is more reasonable. (But where is the rule that you can see whoever else is accessing the node?)

The information you get is at least a commcode, at most anything the user has made public. (pg. 210)

-Can a Hacker narrow down the locations of said PANs? Like... could he discover how many people are in Building A, or even what floors/rooms they are in? If so, is it a passive thing from accessing the Node, or do they need programs and skills for it?
If a hacker is looking at the list of all the people connected to a node, he knows what the node knows. I don't think the node knows where signals are coming from and going to - that's not really how radio communication works. Think about this - what if you are connecting to a node from another node? Like, I log on to ShadowSea, and from there connect to the SCIRE. How does the SCIRE know where I am, physically? It might know that the connection is coming from ShadowSea (in fact, it probably would) but nothing else.

Kaun
2009-10-25, 08:50 PM
Go and stand in the food court at a shopping center and do a search for bluetooth devices on your phone, that will give you a rough idea of what it will be like.

Some people will be visible, some wont. Some will have clever/descriptive/silly names for there PAN and some will just have the default name that came with what ever hardware they are using. Some will be passworded and protected but surprisingly a lot wont.


Something to remember about the wireless world is it is not completely wireless. Reinforced concrete, mirrors, large amounts of metal infrastructure and many other things will massively screw communications. No doubt the wireless systems in the 2070's are much improved but they are still far from perfected. So buildings of any description will have 1 or many coms centers that connect it to the outside world networks and then many hard wired or signal repeaters set up around the building to bounce and transmit the signals all around the building and its many communication obstacles. I often find players have it in there head that the wireless world is magical and complain when there in an underground carpark and the local security shut down the coms center to that area because they have realized there is hacker causing mayhem.

If you really want to get your head around the wireless world and day to day life with PAN and VR go get your self a copy of Halting State by Charles Stross. Damn good book and it will really open up your mind what it would be like with these technologies commonly available.

kjones
2009-10-25, 08:59 PM
Something to remember about the wireless world is it is not completely wireless. Reinforced concrete, mirrors, large amounts of metal infrastructure and many other things will massively screw communications. No doubt the wireless systems in the 2070's are much improved but they are still far from perfected. So buildings of any description will have 1 or many coms centers that connect it to the outside world networks and then many hard wired or signal repeaters set up around the building to bounce and transmit the signals all around the building and its many communication obstacles. I often find players have it in there head that the wireless world is magical and complain when there in an underground carpark and the local security shut down the coms center to that area because they have realized there is hacker causing mayhem.

This is a good observation - you can model this explicitly with Signal ratings. I would also point you to the (lamentably brief) section on Matrix security, p. 256, and the related bit on jammers in the equipment section. I remember reading somewhere about rules that had stats for how, exactly, barriers degraded signal (i. e. broadcasting through a wall was equivalent to a -1 penalty to Signal) but I can't find them.

If you're up for some reading, I'd recommend checking out The Ends of the Matrix (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48836), an extensive set of houserules that add a lot more internal consistency and coherency to the Matrix.

Lycan 01
2009-10-25, 09:04 PM
Alrighty, so its like a souped up version of BlueTooth. Thanks. :smallbiggrin:


But what about my question about Auras? :smallconfused:


Oh, here's another one.

The Shaman wants to start with a basic a cybernetic arm. Its for roleplaying purposes - no real in game effect, at least not for awhile. I notice that limb replacements cost 1 Essence. The book says that when your Essence lowers down a point (or fraction thereof), you lose a Magic Point and the limit of your total Magic Points possible is also reduced by one. Okay, sure, that is simple and makes perfect sense.

But she's starting with the cybernetic arm, not obtaining it later on. So when she's making her character, and buys her magic points, is it assumed that she's already lost the Essence, or will the Essence penalty be placed afterwards?

In short, if she gets 3 Magic Points and a cybernetic arm when she builds her character, will she actually start the game with 3 or 2 Magic Points? :smallconfused:

Personally, I think that while the Essence penalty is in place, and it lowers her Magic limit, it shouldn't cost her the Magic Point(s) she just bought. Who's to say she didn't already lose the magic points in her backstory, and gain them back over time before the game starts, or something? But I'd just like to make sure I'm not bending the rules or anything...