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oxinabox
2009-08-23, 06:49 AM
Some PrC's have such potiential, but when you look closer they are just useless.
Take Soul Bow. what can it do that wa warlock can't do better?
What can it do that a fighter with wielding a bow can't do, with WBL?
Phase Arrows at lvl 8ish? after 5 lvls to qualify.

When I first looked at it i thought you manifested arrowed arrows to used with a regular bow.
then i realised it was fired from a composite longbow...
'til i saw that:
I was thinking Ranger 2, Soulknife 2, X 1, SoulBow
Where X was either another soulknife, a lvl of fighter (Extra range attack feat), or rogue.
maybe dipping into fighter at BaB +6 to get the Woodland Archer feat from RoW.

Then Manifesting arrows (who has the tiem to enchant arrows, just to throw them away?) to shoot with my Ghostwood (gives ghost touch to projectiles fired from it, IIRC) composite great bow.
Ranger rapid shot, get some many shot as my Soulbow bonus feat.
Send out many many arrow (all to miss :smallbiggrin: )

then i see that oh it has to use a silly little longbow.
No win.


What classes/PrC's have disapointed you the most?

AslanCross
2009-08-23, 06:59 AM
Take Soul Bow. what can it do that wa warlock can't do better?


It can make Soulknife worth using? :smallwink:

There are a lot of disappoiting PrCs, actually. Most of the core PrCs are. The Assassin gets a bit more useful due to its expanded spell list in Spell Compendium, but on its own it's kinda lame.

Shadowdancer has some really cool fluff, but despite it being a logical PrC for rogues, it doesn't advance sneak attack. Apart from summoning shadows and Hide in Plain Sight, a Swordsage can do anything it can do. (Then again the Swordsage has Cloak of Deception.)

Elemental Savant (CArc) is kind of sad. You specialize so much in one energy type that once you encounter something that's immune to it, you have to cry over your spellbook. Not to mention you lose CL.

Darwin
2009-08-23, 07:20 AM
Green Star Adept, need I say more?

Melamoto
2009-08-23, 07:44 AM
Elemental Savant (CArc) is kind of sad. You specialize so much in one energy type that once you encounter something that's immune to it, you have to cry over your spellbook. Not to mention you lose CL.

I prefer to play without absolutes. It makes the game so much better imo.

Stephen_E
2009-08-23, 08:00 AM
Beastmaster

Great concept but after 1st lev there's a so/so 2nd lev and it goes downhill from there.

It's designed for Rangers and Druids but has no spell progression.
It gives you 3 additional animal companions, but they only count Beastmaster levs for advancement at -3/-6/-9. At 15th lev you'll get a basic Dire Rat as a animal companion. Yay!:smalleek:

I often think the designers never asked themselves "why" when targeting certain classes for certain PrC's. As in "why would they bother taking this to completion? What do they get that's worth losing what they'd get staying with core?"

Of course the other question some designers never bothered to ask is "why would they not take this PrC? What do they lose from the base class that would make it worth staying base?"

Stephen E

Mongoose87
2009-08-23, 08:12 AM
I often think the designers never asked themselves "why" when targeting certain classes for certain PrC's. As in "why would they bother taking this to completion? What do they get that's worth losing what they'd get staying with core?"

*cough* Dragon Disciple *cough*

woodenbandman
2009-08-23, 10:37 AM
AT Least they covered their butts in the DMG by saying "the best prestige classes are the ones you make yourself"

Fie. Most disappointing PRCs to me are: Hierophant (No spell progression? That means it'll get used in epic and nowhere else!), Blighter, anything with half spellcasting, anything with less than 7/10 spellcasting, reallly, unless it's reallly frickin' special like Swiftblade. Aforementioned green star adept, Mindbender, Metamind, Psion Uncarnate, Witchborn Binder, Bloodstorm Blade (good, but no maneuver advancement), and Master Transmogrifist.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-23, 10:41 AM
Some PrC's have such potiential, but when you look closer they are just useless.
Take Soul Bow. what can it do that wa warlock can't do better?
What can it do that a fighter with wielding a bow can't do, with WBL?
Phase Arrows at lvl 8ish? after 5 lvls to qualify.

When I first looked at it i thought you manifested arrowed arrows to used with a regular bow.
then i realised it was fired from a composite longbow...
'til i saw that:
I was thinking Ranger 2, Soulknife 2, X 1, SoulBow
Where X was either another soulknife, a lvl of fighter (Extra range attack feat), or rogue.
maybe dipping into fighter at BaB +6 to get the Woodland Archer feat from RoW.

Then Manifesting arrows (who has the tiem to enchant arrows, just to throw them away?) to shoot with my Ghostwood (gives ghost touch to projectiles fired from it, IIRC) composite great bow.
Ranger rapid shot, get some many shot as my Soulbow bonus feat.
Send out many many arrow (all to miss :smallbiggrin: )

then i see that oh it has to use a silly little longbow.
No win.


What classes/PrC's have disapointed you the most?

Um, Soulbow get infinite attacks till he hits.

Why because by RAW Lucky arrows can be rerolled if they miss. Now the arrow you shoot to reroll is also lucky and so you can reroll that one too.

So you never miss till you get bored of rerolling by RAW.

Doc Roc
2009-08-23, 10:46 AM
Soulbow is actually pretty good in my experience.

I'm always heart-broken by the Planar Handbook PrCs.

Siosilvar
2009-08-23, 11:01 AM
Um, Soulbow get infinite attacks till he hits.

Why because by RAW Lucky arrows can be rerolled if they miss. Now the arrow you shoot to reroll is also lucky and so you can reroll that one too.

So you never miss till you get bored of rerolling by RAW.

Err... no.


Lucky

A lucky weapon offers a second chance at success. Once per day, the wielder can reroll a failed attack roll (whether a single attack or one in a series of multiple attacks) as a free action. The rerolled attack uses the same bonuses or penalties as the missed roll.

Moderate clairsentience; ML 8th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, fate of one; Price +1 bonus.

So you get one reroll per shot.

Xallace
2009-08-23, 11:03 AM
Mage Slayer from Magic of Faerun. Fluff says the class is for wizard-hunting-wizards, for spellcasters who have trained mind and body for the sole purpose of wiping the floor with abusers of the Art.

Class features? Spell Focus five times, a saving throw bonus, and your summons get extra HP. Full casting, sure, but that's it. Pre-reqs include proficiency in a Martial Weapon. What the heck is that? All I could think was that someone accidentally pasted the wrong class onto the fluff and didn't notice.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-23, 11:10 AM
Err... no.



So you get one reroll per shot.

Each arrow gets Lucky: Each arrow is 1/day. Each once a day...

You don't have a bow with Lucky, but arrows!

Or are you saying buying Flaming arrows means only 1 arrow is flaming. No, they all get it.

thegurullamen
2009-08-23, 11:17 AM
Each arrow gets Lucky: Each arrow is 1/day. Each once a day...

You don't have a bow with Lucky, but arrows!

Or are you saying buying Flaming arrows means only 1 arrow is flaming. No, they all get it.

It would be if flaming was a 1/day thing. It's continuous. Unlike Lucky.

FMArthur
2009-08-23, 11:18 AM
Blighter is a druid that must destroy forests just to prepare their spells every day. Every. Day.

Risen Martyr is a class that requires you to die to enter it, doesn't give you anything useful for its whole 10 levels, then permanently kills you as its capstone. You are forbidden from multiclassing from Risen Martyr.

And then there are a lot of sneaky PrCs all over the place that don't provide any (or enough) useful combat abilities, opting to instead give you bonuses to just the skills that are made obsolete by low-level spells and items made from low-level spells.

Serenity
2009-08-23, 11:18 AM
Except that the reroll for Lucky doesn't represent shooting another arrow, but the one that seemed to miss actually hitting. So, no, your interpretation is flat wrong.

Forbiddenwar
2009-08-23, 11:25 AM
Death Delver is pretty disappointing until level 10 (9 lives ability). A very narrow spell list and a seperate very slow spell progression for a cleric prestige class? Special abilities that are matched by spells easily? Ugh. Luckily I'm the DM and can fix things like this.

Dread witch, you have to be terrified for your abilities to work. Using your abilities does not remove the fear so you are still taking the minuses from that. Who in their right mind thinks that is a good idea?

Kylarra
2009-08-23, 11:36 AM
Except that the reroll for Lucky doesn't represent shooting another arrow, but the one that seemed to miss actually hitting. So, no, your interpretation is flat wrong.On the other hand, always getting a second chance if you miss the first time is still pretty awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Xallace
2009-08-23, 11:45 AM
Dread witch, you have to be terrified for your abilities to work. Using your abilities does not remove the fear so you are still taking the minuses from that. Who in their right mind thinks that is a good idea?

You need to be terrified for one of your abilities to work. Everything else can be done while calm: Fear DC boosts, adding [Fear] descriptor to non-fear spells, scaring creatures normally immune... I, for one, love the Dread Witch.Which means I'm going to be incredibly biased in any discussions involving it.

Forbiddenwar
2009-08-23, 11:46 AM
You need to be terrified for one of your abilities to work. Everything else can be done while calm: Fear DC boosts, adding [Fear] descriptor to non-fear spells, scaring creatures normally immune... I, for one, love the Dread Witch.Which means I'm going to be incredibly biased in any discussions involving it.

Ah. Misread it. Sorry.

Xallace
2009-08-23, 11:57 AM
I feel like my last post came off as more rude than I intended it to be. Curse the internet and it's lack of inflection! My apologies.

Also, I agree on the Death Delver.

Thinking back, I find Acolyte of the Skin most dissappointing. I bind a fiend into my own flesh? Sounds exciting! Abilities? ....eh... Poison Immunity... and a once-per-day minor glare effect... huh.

sofawall
2009-08-23, 12:44 PM
Each arrow gets Lucky: Each arrow is 1/day. Each once a day...

You don't have a bow with Lucky, but arrows!

Or are you saying buying Flaming arrows means only 1 arrow is flaming. No, they all get it.

When rerolling an attack, you do not shoot another arrow. You reroll the first arrow.

Your RAW is wrong.

Milskidasith
2009-08-23, 12:46 PM
He's saying that the arrows themselves are lucky, meaning that every arrow he shoots gets one reroll. Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-23, 12:57 PM
indeed, because the Soulbow doesn't actually have a bow per say, but chooses a +1 enhancement to apply to every arrow he shoots. Like Lucky. It's only 1 re-roll per shot, but that's still re-rolling every missed hit once. Horribly, horribly munchkinly, but by strict RAW, it is legal.


Granted, even without Luckycheese, the Soulbow is a fantastic class simply for the fact that it makes the Soulknife not garbage.

boomwolf
2009-08-23, 01:08 PM
I liked the blighter.

Its NOT a druid, its an ANTI-druid. his spell focus is necrotic, flames and such. plus using some nature-themed spells for ironic touch and reminding his origins.

Both fluff-wise and Crunch-wise its one of my favorite PrCs. hardly a game I DM don't have one as one of the minor villans. once he was the BBEG too. (along about +15 LA worth of templates but who cares?)



As for disappontment.
Mindbender.
Arcane Archer.
Dragon Deciple.
Any class that requires casting and don't GIVE casting. (there are a few)
Any class that has his entire list of abilities doable in base classes. (there are also a few of these)

nightwyrm
2009-08-23, 01:15 PM
90% of all feats and PrCs aren't worth the ink used to write them. But things like the Dragon Disciple and the Rage Mage are just especially disappointing.

sofawall
2009-08-23, 01:21 PM
No, he pretty clearly said infinite rerolls until you hit, by RAW.

Hyooz
2009-08-23, 01:23 PM
I liked the blighter.

Its NOT a druid, its an ANTI-druid. his spell focus is necrotic, flames and such. plus using some nature-themed spells for ironic touch and reminding his origins.

Both fluff-wise and Crunch-wise its one of my favorite PrCs. hardly a game I DM don't have one as one of the minor villans. once he was the BBEG too. (along about +15 LA worth of templates but who cares?)



As for disappontment.
Mindbender.
Arcane Archer.
Dragon Deciple.
Any class that requires casting and don't GIVE casting. (there are a few)
Any class that has his entire list of abilities doable in base classes. (there are also a few of these)

Blighter has some sweet flavor, don't get us wrong. That's usually why people get excited by things and then disappointed by the horrid crunch. To even take a level of blighter, you need to have been a druid for 5 levels... and then throw those levels away. You essentially become level 1 again. THAT is worse than any 1/2 spell progression.

Random832
2009-08-23, 02:00 PM
Blighter has some sweet flavor, don't get us wrong. That's usually why people get excited by things and then disappointed by the horrid crunch. To even take a level of blighter, you need to have been a druid for 5 levels... and then throw those levels away. You essentially become level 1 again. THAT is worse than any 1/2 spell progression.

Right... you "essentially become level 1 again" (except, oh, wait, you don't lose your BAB and saves, or your wealth, or your caster level) and get 9th-level spells by CL14; cry me a river. How is this different from an ex-cleric Ur-Priest, anyway?

Faulty
2009-08-23, 02:03 PM
Most of the PrCs in the BoVD. Mindbender as well, it seems like such a cool concept, but is stunted in comparison to other arcane PrCs.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-23, 02:06 PM
No, he pretty clearly said infinite rerolls until you hit, by RAW.

Yes, I misspoke. It happens. But either way you get double the chance to hit.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-23, 02:06 PM
I think the most commonuse for Mindbenders is to take a 1 level dip if you're a Beguiller for Telepathy, preferably before taking a powerful feat from Lords of Madness.

Faulty
2009-08-23, 02:08 PM
I'm aware of that, yes.

Newhill
2009-08-23, 02:20 PM
Personally, I've always loved the fluff off the duelist, only to cry out in pain every time I read the crunch.

+2 to reflex saves are nice, but at 4th level? The class has absolutely nothing of real use, with elaborate parry as a possible exception. And with the +6 bab requirement, it's also pretty much closed to rogues and the like.

Nah, when I'm looking for my dueling, I go swashbuckler and rogue.

Draken
2009-08-23, 02:29 PM
Right... you "essentially become level 1 again" (except, oh, wait, you don't lose your BAB and saves, or your wealth, or your caster level) and get 9th-level spells by CL14; cry me a river. How is this different from an ex-cleric Ur-Priest, anyway?

CL 15. You need +4 BAB and 3° level druid spells to enter Blighter. So You can only enter it at 7° level (druid 5/full BAB 1 or druid 6). You don't need cleric levels to enter Ur Priest, and in fact being a cleric and then going Ur-Priest is a bad, bad idea, your cleric levels don't count for Ur-priest caster level.

In the blighter's case it seens nothing counts towards caster level, only blighter and + casting PRCs. Those 5-6 druid levels are wasted, as are any other levels you might take.

Blighter is cool and all, but it indeed, doesn't work very well.

Korivan
2009-08-23, 02:52 PM
Green Star Adept, need I say more?

Half caster progression
Costs an arm, leg, and your other leg to advance levels (16 days worth of total preperation, 10,000 gp)
The damage reduction isnt that great at higher levels
The higher caster level isnt that great if you can't apply it too higher level spells.
The transition to bolstering STR and NA and sacking DEX harms alot of ray builds, while giving the stats for a mellee build. Not a good PrC for a caster at all.
If you really want to play a construct (which is what this PrC becomes really), try a warforged, research a spell to make you a construct, or go lich.

bosssmiley
2009-08-23, 02:58 PM
PrCs: Sturgeon's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Law) applies.

Ninety percent of PrCs do not justify taking all their levels in any mechanically meaningful way. The other 10% are either level-appropriate, or broken in the über direction. This is simply bad game design.

Given the fact that most (non-one-off) games never go above 12th level, then most 10 level PrCs should be no more than 5 levels long. Those five levels are a big chunk of character investment in their own right. And most PrCs with a "You must be level 10 or higher to play" requirement should be spectacular in their power and effects. Yes, that goes double for the poor put-upon muggle classes.

A 15th lvl Fighter 5 / Knight Lancer PrC 5 / Knight of Awesome 5 (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50018) character inhabits a world where save-or-really-die spells, limited wish, and resurrection are standard battlefield options. In order to play meaningfully in such deadly territory a character of that level should be doing stuff that lesser mortals can only dream of simply by virtue of his class and level. Dead levels, the pretence that full BAB and saves are class features, and "+1 use/day of an ability that maybe mattered 5 levels ago" simply do not cut it.

Oh, and this hypothetical PrCed character still has 5 levels (probably of the Knight Grand Cross of Over 9000! PrC) to go before Epic. :smallwink:

rezplz
2009-08-23, 03:04 PM
I've noticed that a lot of people here don't like the dragon disciple. But there's a dragon disciple in a game I'm DMing and he's pretty much the most powerful guy.

He was an orc barbarian that started off at 22 strength, and took one level in sorcerer before going into dragon disciple. He pretty much ignores the spellcasting part of it completely, instead just barbarian-izing everything he sees. It's really quite effective.

Nightmarenny
2009-08-23, 03:07 PM
Hopefully he's still True striking(and maybe Mage armor and Shield) where appropriate?

rezplz
2009-08-23, 03:11 PM
Not really. He just bashes stuff - doesn't want to deal with the spell failure chance for his armor. Maybe he should look into casting shield before a fight sometime, but I'm not sure if he learned it. He knows true strike and expeditious retreat, but I don't know what other spells he knows.

Random832
2009-08-23, 03:14 PM
CL 15. You need +4 BAB and 3° level druid spells to enter Blighter. So You can only enter it at 7° level (druid 5/full BAB 1 or druid 6). You don't need cleric levels to enter Ur Priest, and in fact being a cleric and then going Ur-Priest is a bad, bad idea, your cleric levels don't count for Ur-priest caster level.

Yeah well it's recommended flavor-wise, make of that what you will i guess.


In the blighter's case it seens nothing counts towards caster level, only blighter and + casting PRCs. Those 5-6 druid levels are wasted, as are any other levels you might take.

Blighter is cool and all, but it indeed, doesn't work very well.

Um... "The blighter’s caster level is equal to her blighter level plus her druid level." So basically all you lose is the ability to cast spells that aren't flavor-appropriate to your character's new direction anyway.

And did I mention the fast spell progression?

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-23, 03:16 PM
Knight of Awesome 5 (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50018)

Those really are some seriously awesome knights. Stolen like the fist of the North Star.

Draken
2009-08-23, 03:20 PM
...

Hey it is true. How did I miss that part about the caster level?

Ok, so the blighter isn't all that bad. You will just need four levels to catch up on your spells. The other class features are still a bit lacking, however.

Until you like using deforestation to be a jerk. Or to show your utmost dislike for elves. In fact, that is a fairly decent use of the ability. Destroying elf communities. One 40 ft./level circle a day.

Random832
2009-08-23, 03:23 PM
What struck me about reading it was how utterly useless they are outside a forest environment - if you can't find a chunk of forest to destroy, no spells for you!

Eldariel
2009-08-23, 03:24 PM
And did I mention the fast spell progression?

Have you checked their spell list? That's the primary problem. Honestly, their only good level 9 spell is Foresight and they can't get any immediate action spells so even that's wasted.

They throw away 5-6 levels in the best class of the game (you lose AC, Wildshape, spellcasting, everything) and instead start their casting from level 1 again with practically no class features. Sure, they get level 9 spells two levels earlier than normal, but those spells suck.

If they had a decent spell list, they could be excused for high level play, but unlike most casters, they start off really horribly. Ur-Priest at least has a bunch of levels to work off of (that you don't lose when you enter the class), and gets full Cleric-casting. Blighters don't (if Blighter even got full Druid list, they'd be a fine class for high-level play).

Signmaker
2009-08-23, 03:28 PM
Champion of Corellon Larethian. The feat reqs (dipping in to any meh fighter tree) make almost zero sense with what is otherwise a cool PrC. Essentially, you walk in as a jackofallfighterfeats where the build requires a fighter with more finesse.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-23, 03:32 PM
Divine Agent.

So, so sad.

Asheram
2009-08-23, 03:45 PM
I do tend to ge the feel that 90% of the prestigeclasses are not for the players, they're just there to fluff out the NPC's and BBEG's

Aquillion
2009-08-23, 04:01 PM
indeed, because the Soulbow doesn't actually have a bow per say, but chooses a +1 enhancement to apply to every arrow he shoots. Like Lucky. It's only 1 re-roll per shot, but that's still re-rolling every missed hit once. Horribly, horribly munchkinly, but by strict RAW, it is legal.


Granted, even without Luckycheese, the Soulbow is a fantastic class simply for the fact that it makes the Soulknife not garbage.
I don't think it is RAW-legal. Lucky is a melee enchantment only, as described here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm). Therefore, even if you interpret the Soulbow to let you put it on an arrow, it still only functions if you use that arrow in melee, not if you fire it from a bow.

Signmaker
2009-08-23, 04:01 PM
I don't think it is RAW-legal. Lucky is a melee enchantment only, as described here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm). Therefore, even if you interpret the Soulbow to let you put it on an arrow, it still only functions if you use that arrow in melee, not if you fire it from a bow.

Bloodstorm Blade. Problem fixed. =/

HamHam
2009-08-23, 04:05 PM
Bloodstorm Blade. Problem fixed. =/

In that you are back to doing it only once per day.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-23, 04:20 PM
I don't think it is RAW-legal. Lucky is a melee enchantment only, as described here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm). Therefore, even if you interpret the Soulbow to let you put it on an arrow, it still only functions if you use that arrow in melee, not if you fire it from a bow.

But the Soulbow can choose Lucky. Read page 37 of your Complete psionics.
So that is the exception.

Kylarra
2009-08-23, 04:24 PM
I don't think it is RAW-legal. Lucky is a melee enchantment only, as described here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm). Therefore, even if you interpret the Soulbow to let you put it on an arrow, it still only functions if you use that arrow in melee, not if you fire it from a bow.
Specific trumps general, and since the Soulbow class ability description specifically says Lucky is a viable enchantment for fired mind arrows (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2), and Lucky itself does not specify melee rolls, it is applicable.

PId6
2009-08-23, 04:25 PM
Whenever I see a crappy class or PrC (that I like the flavor of), I get an irresistible urge to start fiddling with it. :smalltongue:

DragoonWraith
2009-08-23, 04:42 PM
Duelist is definitely the PrC that disappointed me the most. I really want to make a finesse character like that, but the Duelist is terrible. Hence my Dualist.

Gorbash
2009-08-23, 07:18 PM
Champion of Corellon Larethian. The feat reqs (dipping in to any meh fighter tree) make almost zero sense with what is otherwise a cool PrC. Essentially, you walk in as a jackofallfighterfeats where the build requires a fighter with more finesse.

And it's all worth it if nothing else but Elegant Strike and Corellon's Wrath... Prerequisites for that class may be disappointing, but what's so disappointing about the class itself?

- 4 Bonus feats over 10 levels, almost as much as the fighter
- 2 good saves
- good BAB
- Dex to damage, in addition to Str

Come to think of it, EVERY ability it gets is really good. I'm DMing for a party that has an Elf Paladin/Fighter/Champion (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=2416). Outdamages every other party member and resilient as hell.

deuxhero
2009-08-23, 07:28 PM
A Warlock can't have 16 eldrich blasts on a full attack?

Anyways, I vote Blackguard, due to the really inane requirments (heavy armor using class that requires hide?).

Signmaker
2009-08-23, 07:37 PM
And it's all worth it if nothing else but Elegant Strike and Corellon's Wrath... Prerequisites for that class may be disappointing, but what's so disappointing about the class itself?

The disappointing aspect is that you get so little synergy with the prereqs. Great class, great concept, poor build execution unless you're oozing feats via flaws or such.

oxinabox
2009-08-23, 08:16 PM
in responce to soulbow being great for soulknives:
It's labled as being a class for "anyone who wants to be a master of archery"
ie for rangers/ranged fighters/rogue snipers

Xenogears
2009-08-23, 09:12 PM
Drunken Master not advancing monk's unarmed damage even though it's best feature is reliant on it (unarmed damage, +1d4/d6/d8/d10 depending on lvl, to damage rolls with improvised weapons.

What about the ones that are awesome in every way possible but their requirements (that don't make sense) prohibit your awesome character idea from working... Especially alignment ones.

Draken
2009-08-23, 09:12 PM
in responce to soulbow being great for soulknives:
It's labled as being a class for "anyone who wants to be a master of archery"
ie for rangers/ranged fighters/rogue snipers

After they take two levels of soulknife.

---

That said. The Entropomancer always looked quite lacking to me. Sure, it makes you immune to Spheres of Annihilation and Entropic Field appears to be unlimited uses per day (you just have to renew it once every few rounds). But the defining ability, Shard of Entropy, is somewhat lacking.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-23, 09:23 PM
A Warlock can't have 16 eldrich blasts on a full attack?

Anyways, I vote Blackguard, due to the really inane requirments (heavy armor using class that requires hide?).

Worst, Sunder? ...what does that have to do with being a Blackguard?

None of its class features even do anything with it.
If it at least had a class feature affecting it: at least it would make sense as a prereq.

The Blackguards only pourpose is for players to prove to DMs evil divine casters can cast cure spells even if channeling negative energy is evil and channeling positive energy is good (referencing turning but vague enough to fool people back in the day). Yes, that was a mesage board question a few years back.

Godskook
2009-08-23, 09:35 PM
What about the ones that are awesome in every way possible but their requirements (that don't make sense) prohibit your awesome character idea from working... Especially alignment ones.

Master of Nine. Improved Initiative(Huh? Why?), Blind-Fight(How's this got to do with the sublime way?), Improved Unarmed Strike(Um....every discipline has a weapon allowed, so this one's a tad confusing too), Dodge(Well, Desert Wind Dodge is a lot better, but its still a non-great feat). The other requisites made decent sense, but 4 non-great feats(5 total) is a pretty rough entry requirement.

The class also sucks from lack of being a true master of 9 without serious build effort or epic progression. It might be a powerful class, but its still disappointing that you can be a fully-progressed Master of 9, without having learned 9th level maneuvers from all 9 disciplines(my expectation of what 'master' means).

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-23, 09:39 PM
Worst, Sunder? ...what does that have to do with being a Blackguard?

None of its class features even do anything with it.
If it at least had a class feature affecting it: at least it would make sense as a prereq.

The Blackguards only pourpose is for players to prove to DMs evil divine casters can cast cure spells even if channeling negative energy is evil and channeling positive energy is good (referencing turning but vague enough to fool people back in the day). Yes, that was a mesage board question a few years back.

Well, it is the only Full BAB class with Sneak Attack progression in Core. A Rogue would be better off with that than Assassin, and just ignores the Armor it grants. Entry requirements suck though.

Milskidasith
2009-08-23, 09:42 PM
Wouldn't a rogue be better off with just rogue levels? Burning three feats to become a blackguard doesn't seem worth it, even if the BAB is tasty.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-23, 09:45 PM
Wouldn't a rogue be better off with just rogue levels? Burning three feats to become a blackguard doesn't seem worth it, even if the BAB is tasty.

The Divine spellcasting and Fiendish companion may make up for it. A little. Depending on the build. If they are going TWFing, then no. Anything else? Maybe. If Feat Rogue is allowed, then maybe.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-23, 09:46 PM
Master of Nine. Improved Initiative(Huh? Why?), Blind-Fight(How's this got to do with the sublime way?), Improved Unarmed Strike(Um....every discipline has a weapon allowed, so this one's a tad confusing too), Dodge(Well, Desert Wind Dodge is a lot better, but its still a non-great feat). The other requisites made decent sense, but 4 non-great feats(5 total) is a pretty rough entry requirement.

The class also sucks from lack of being a true master of 9 without serious build effort or epic progression. It might be a powerful class, but its still disappointing that you can be a fully-progressed Master of 9, without having learned 9th level maneuvers from all 9 disciplines(my expectation of what 'master' means).

It's been done. You can get all 9 of the Capstone Strikes on a single character with levels in Master of Nine through judicious use of multiclassing and Major Bloodlines.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-23, 09:48 PM
Well, it is the only Full BAB class with Sneak Attack progression in Core. A Rogue would be better off with that than Assassin, and just ignores the Armor it grants. Entry requirements suck though.One of the players in my evil campaign ended up playing a Blackguard; he decided to take advantage of the ranks he'd been forced to put into Hide by wearing light armor with the shadow enhancement on it.

kjones
2009-08-23, 10:27 PM
I don't want to defend the blighter too much, but it seems pretty clear to me that this was not a PrC intended for PCs to use. Disregarding the fact that much of D&D seems to be written with non-evil PCs in mind, the forest-destroying thing seems like it would make the blighter unplayable in 90% of campaigns. (Namely, those that don't take place in a forest.)

That being said, Undead Wild Shape isn't nearly as cool as it should be.

Godskook
2009-08-23, 10:34 PM
The class also sucks from lack of being a true master of 9 without serious build effort or epic progression. It might be a powerful class, but its still disappointing that you can be a fully-progressed Master of 9, without having learned 9th level maneuvers from all 9 disciplines(my expectation of what 'master' means).

It's been done. You can get all 9 of the Capstone Strikes on a single character with levels in Master of Nine through judicious use of multiclassing and Major Bloodlines.

My point wasn't that a you can't do it(honestly, I didn't know if it was possible), my point was that simply taking the prestige class labeled "Master of Nine" does not actually make you that(it may be required to achieve all 9 capstones, but there's more work to be done than simply taking said class).

On a side note, I'm curious what the build is that does it.

---------------------------------

To beat the obligatory dead horse, Mystic Theurge.

Milskidasith
2009-08-23, 10:48 PM
MT is disappointing, but not nearly as much as some of these ones are; it's more along the lines of "eh, I'm trading down from T1 to T2~3."

9mm
2009-08-23, 10:50 PM
Reaping mauler: horrible pre-reqs (Clever Wrestling!), class ablities that fail in front of feats (Choke hold makes sleeperlock cry), a paltry +2 two your main mechanic, and an easy as hell to avoid capstone (you try maintaining a pin for 3 rounds...) = total fail for what could have been an AWSOME class.

also Champion of CL... dex to damage really is the only thing it has in that great big pile of FAIL.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-23, 10:52 PM
My point wasn't that a you can't do it(honestly, I didn't know if it was possible), my point was that simply taking the prestige class labeled "Master of Nine" does not actually make you that(it may be required to achieve all 9 capstones, but there's more work to be done than simply taking said class).

On a side note, I'm curious what the build is that does it.

---------------------------------

To beat the obligatory dead horse, Mystic Theurge.

I believe it's Human Crusader 2/Warblade 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Barbarian 1/Feat Rogue 1/Major Bloodline 1/Any 2 Full BAB PrC with low entry requirements 2/Master of Nine 1/Major Bloodline+2/Master of Nine+4. Your IL ends up getting boosted until you no longer need to worry about it, and then you just take maneuvers to meet requirements.

Interesting note about this build: None of the Mountain Hammer line (including the Tombstone Mountain Strike) have maneuvers known requirements. Several don't, including some Tiger Claw and Desert Wind maneuvers. The build relies on using those to meet other maneuver requirements.

Oh, and you take either Feat Rogue or Barbarian first. Feat Rogue for skills if you want them, Barbarian for HP and attack bonus. You take the Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader levels after gaining Bloodline "levels", so your IL is higher than it normally would be. Some builds like having Pally 2 or Hexblade 2, but I didn't use those because alignment requirements meshing poorly. You can always be an Ex-Barbarian though, the only reason you even take levels in that class for this build is Pounce.

kjones
2009-08-23, 10:56 PM
I believe it's Human Crusader 2/Warblade 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Barbarian 1/Feat Rogue 1/Major Bloodline 1/Any 2 Full BAB PrC with low entry requirements 2/Master of Nine 1/Major Bloodline+2/Master of Nine+4. Your IL ends up getting boosted until you no longer need to worry about it, and then you just take maneuvers to meet requirements.

Interesting note about this build: None of the Mountain Hammer line (including the Tombstone Mountain Strike) have maneuvers known requirements. Several don't, including some Tiger Claw and Desert Wind maneuvers. The build relies on using those to meet other maneuver requirements.

Oh, and you take either Feat Rogue or Barbarian first. Feat Rogue for skills if you want them, Barbarian for HP and attack bonus. You take the Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader levels after gaining Bloodline "levels", so your IL is higher than it normally would be. Some builds like having Pally 2 or Hexblade 2, but I didn't use those because alignment requirements meshing poorly. You can always be an Ex-Barbarian though, the only reason you even take levels in that class for this build is Pounce.

This seems slightly suspect - assuming you're taking Unarmed Swordsage to meet the Unarmed Strake prereq for Master of Nine... well, Unarmed Swordsage isn't actually a class.

Sure, by RAI it works.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-23, 11:02 PM
This seems slightly suspect - assuming you're taking Unarmed Swordsage to meet the Unarmed Strake prereq for Master of Nine... well, Unarmed Swordsage isn't actually a class.

Sure, by RAI it works.

If that doesn't work, Fanged Ring from Dragon Magic grants it. I think.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-23, 11:52 PM
There are, IIRC, 3 seperate builds on the WotC forums for a true Master of 9. One involves bloodlines, one uses items to meet requirements, and one uses the "ToB PrC levels stack to determine IL for all martial classes" to justify taking Crusader 1 at 20 and using that for the last couple maneuvers. In other words, all of the builds are convoluted, probably violate RAI, definitely twist RAW, and required a lot of effort to figure out. Master of 9 should be better than that.

For the list:
True Necromancer. It's a Theurge PrC that is worse than Mystic Theurge. That's really, really sad.
Almost all of the Paladin PrCs. Few of them advance more than one or 2 features of the Paladin class, meaning that things like Lay on Hands and the mount become useless, at which point you have to wonder why you're playing a Paladin.
Blood Magus. Great flavor, poor requirements(needs Toughness and for you to have died, both of which are rough), and not good enough abilities to make up for it(though the capstone is awesome).
Wildmage. Unfocused to the point of being useless for anything more than the randomized caster level.

Stephen_E
2009-08-24, 12:00 AM
Worst, Sunder? ...what does that have to do with being a Blackguard?

None of its class features even do anything with it.
If it at least had a class feature affecting it: at least it would make sense as a prereq.

The Blackguards only pourpose is for players to prove to DMs evil divine casters can cast cure spells even if channeling negative energy is evil and channeling positive energy is good (referencing turning but vague enough to fool people back in the day). Yes, that was a mesage board question a few years back.

The only time I've done Blackguard as a PC was by getting my DM to allow me to replace feats that mentioned Paladin as Blackguard feats.
Thus my Druid/Beastmaster/Blackguard had an Animal Companion that was also his fiendish servant (Devoted Tracker) and Cohort (Leadership). At which point every 3 levels gained as a Druid gave my animal companion 4 bonus HD and 3 class levels. Sure, I sicked, but my animal companion was a demi-god.

Stephen E

Drammel
2009-08-24, 12:46 AM
also Champion of CL... dex to damage really is the only thing it has in that great big pile of FAIL.

Not to mention you can get the same thing by taking Shadow Blade, which as it happens has two useful prerequisite feats (Martial Study and Martial Stance, both in Shadow Hand maneuvers).

Faulty
2009-08-24, 12:51 AM
Dread Pirate is also pretty disappointing.

PId6
2009-08-24, 12:53 AM
Dread Pirate is also pretty disappointing.
Meh, at least better than ninjas.

Faulty
2009-08-24, 12:55 AM
Meh, at least better than ninjas.

Nothing is worse than CW Samurai. Adepts are better, and they're an NPC class.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 12:57 AM
Dread Pirate is actually crucial in DFI optimization, so I'm going to have to suggest that this is not correct. It may not do what you wanted it to do, but it does a couple of things awesome-well.

FMArthur
2009-08-24, 01:07 AM
Meh, at least better than ninjas.

Ninjas are good at what they do; the only problem is that what they do isn't particularly important or useful sometimes. I don't know what use a Dread Pirate is to a sneaky character - why the comparison?

Alleine
2009-08-24, 01:09 AM
Blood Magus, Weretouched Master, Reaping Mauler, Reachrunner, Tattooed Monk, Geomancer, Psion Uncarnate.

Any Spellcasting PrC with awesome sounding abilities that actually suck and gimped casting. PrCs tailored for a specific race/class whose abilities make completely null the abilities you've been working on up to that point, and PrCs that can be completely reconstructed on any character using only a fraction of WBL.

Longcat
2009-08-24, 01:19 AM
Core:
-Arcane Archer: With Bow and arrow enhancements no longer stacking, and the class granting no spell progression, you cannot make full use of its features.
-Duelist: Unarmored Einhander-style to gain meager precision damage and some flavorful, but weak abilities? Reminds me of the monk class.
-Dragon Disciple: If the class granted actual spell progression, e.g. 8/10, one might actually take it as a sorcerer. The way it is, the best it can do is augment some Bard1/MeleeX builds in core only games.
-Dwarfen Defender: Two words: Epic Fail!
-Hierophant: No spell progression? Yay, a gimped archmage.
-Mystic Theurge: Without serious optimization, this class is simply subpar to a single-classed caster.

Don’t get me started on supplements, about 1/3 of the printed PrCs are playable from an optimization standpoint.

PId6
2009-08-24, 01:21 AM
Ninjas are good at what they do; the only problem is that what they do isn't particularly important or useful sometimes. I don't know what use a Dread Pirate is to a sneaky character - why the comparison?
*sigh* Never mind.

FMArthur
2009-08-24, 01:23 AM
Forgive me, it's late. I get it now. :smallsigh:

PId6
2009-08-24, 01:27 AM
Forgive me, it's late. I get it now. :smallsigh:
Eh, no problem. That one was a bit of a stretch anyway.

Ravens_cry
2009-08-24, 01:28 AM
-Mystic Theurge: Without serious optimization, this class is simply subpar to a single-classed caster.


Yeah, but what isn't? Versatility comes at a price, or everyone would be mystic theurging, basically fulfilling two rolls in one. Two rolls that already can fit most anywhere anyway.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-24, 01:29 AM
Are Dwarvern Defenders really that bad? Barring the fact that they can't really protect allies or deal with ranged attackers while using their Stance ability, they don't look that bad to me.

tyckspoon
2009-08-24, 01:33 AM
Are Dwarvern Defenders really that bad? Barring the fact that they can't really protect allies or deal with ranged attackers while using their Stance ability, they don't look that bad to me.

..but.. protecting their allies is what a Dwarven Defender is supposed to do.

Well.. ok, not really. What a Dwarven Defender is meant to do is stand in the middle of a 5-10 foot-wide tunnel and bellow "YOU SHALL NOT PASS." And they are, in fairness, pretty good at that. The problem is that's a pretty narrow niche job- it's the kind of thing the elite Ironguard of the Great Underground Dwarven Citadel does. It's not the kind of thing a typical adventurer should be specializing in, which makes a PrC that specializes in it a bad idea.

PId6
2009-08-24, 01:36 AM
It's not the kind of thing a typical adventurer should be specializing in, which makes a PrC that specializes in it a bad idea.
Or, in the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar, "It's a trap!"

sadi
2009-08-24, 01:40 AM
Well, it is the only Full BAB class with Sneak Attack progression in Core. A Rogue would be better off with that than Assassin, and just ignores the Armor it grants. Entry requirements suck though.

You forget about the divine grace, i mean dark blessing ability. Sunder sucks, but I've always though it wasn't that bad for a fighter4/rogue3. It's not going to ever dominate, but if you're limited to something like 2 base and 1 prestige class it's workable.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-24, 01:44 AM
Thanks, tyckspoon. To be fair, using a Reach weapon could allow a DD to defend a 25' wide area, which could be more common (admittedly I mainly thought it looks okay due to it giving better class features then Fighters).

tyckspoon
2009-08-24, 01:55 AM
Thanks, tyckspoon. To be fair, using a Reach weapon could allow a DD to defend a 25' wide area, which could be more common (admittedly I mainly thought it looks okay due to it giving better class features then Fighters).

Funny thing about that- not only are the Dwarven Defender's features sometimes counterproductive, the entry requirements suck. 3 mostly useless feats- and if you want to make a practical controlling melee character, feats are a very valuable resource indeed. Just to take some SRD examples, instead of taking Dodge/Toughness/Endurance to qualify for Dwarven Defender you could have Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes. And you don't have to be a Dwarf (although maybe you want to anyway, Dwarves are pretty awesome), so if you want feats even faster you can be a Human and add in Hold The Line or spiked chain proficiency.

Soras Teva Gee
2009-08-24, 01:56 AM
I've always been the most disappointed with the Mystic Theurge. Its just so spartan in construct. You're a wizard without your bonus feats who casts cleric spells too. Yay but full spell progression is just a pre-req for anything making you sack three levels of caster progression, could we have some actual class features please? Like the excessively obvious ability to prepare one spell list in the others slots somewhere in there. At least then you could maybe feel better about your lower spell progression by spamming what spells you can cast.

Dixieboy
2009-08-24, 01:59 AM
I've always been the most disappointed with the Mystic Theurge. Its just so spartan in construct. You're a wizard without your bonus feats who casts cleric spells too. Yay but full spell progression is just a pre-req for anything making you sack three levels of caster progression, could we have some actual class features please? And behold, they named it "The arcane heirophant"

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-24, 02:01 AM
I know what you mean about those other feats often being better (I only made a DD while experimenting with core only builds; Dwarves are one of my least favourite races because of their fluff and apperance, so I'd never use one in an actual game). To be fair, using a Knight would probably work better for battlefield control (they isn't the best Dwarf class thanks to the special abilities using Cha, though).

PId6
2009-08-24, 02:07 AM
Dwarves are one of my least favourite races because of their fluff and apperance, so I'd never use one in an actual game.
But being so short and hairy, they're almost like furry little animals! How can you not like them?

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-24, 02:10 AM
I tend to see them as being squat humans with huge beards (also, they seem to like getting drunk while having a strong racial hatred of several other races, which is why I don't like them from a fluff perspective).

PId6
2009-08-24, 02:17 AM
Compare:

http://paizo.com/image/content/RiseOfTheRunelords/Harsk-DwarfIconic.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_P7V_s3yyW1Q/SgMF61ME1zI/AAAAAAAAAK0/tUGBL94apnA/s400/bunny11.jpg
There's at least a little similarity here, right?

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-24, 02:36 AM
I can't really see it sadly (the bunny is really cute though). Now that I think about it, how effective is the Deepstone Sentinel PrC from ToB? That appears to basically be a ToB-powered DD fluffwise and it loos quite neat.

Godskook
2009-08-24, 02:44 AM
And behold, they named it "The arcane heirophant"

And lo, it doth read below that, "Suck it, clerics. - Druids"

Frosty
2009-08-24, 02:47 AM
Because, you know...Druids need more goodies than other classes.

PId6
2009-08-24, 02:49 AM
I can't really see it sadly (the bunny is really cute though). Now that I think about it, how effective is the Deepstone Sentinel PrC from ToB? That appears to basically be a ToB-powered DD fluffwise and it loos quite neat.
Certainly better than the original, that's for sure. While I never really liked Stone Dragon, Deepstone Sentinel does look pretty cool. I'd imagine the difficult terrain would do wonders for locking down enemies, and all the ways you can stop opponents or knock them prone would certainly make the concept more viable. However, like Stone Dragon in general, the class does seem to get a lot less useful against flying enemies, so you're better off taking it only when you know that you're going to dungeon delve a lot.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-24, 02:51 AM
I was thinking the same thing. As far as dissappointing PrCs go, the Survivour from Savage Specise (I think) was awful (it wouldn't have been as bad if it got good saves and a decent HD; they would have at least fitted the concept).

AslanCross
2009-08-24, 03:17 AM
Blighter is a druid that must destroy forests just to prepare their spells every day. Every. Day.



Yeah, I kind of encountered this in Red Hand of Doom since
the Ghostlord is one. Annoyingly enough he lives in the middle of thorny badlands. While Deforestation works with any environment, it means he has to venture further and further from his lair. Every day. Kind of unproductive for a lich.

Jergmo
2009-08-24, 03:25 AM
It can make Soulknife worth using? :smallwink:

There are a lot of disappoiting PrCs, actually. Most of the core PrCs are. The Assassin gets a bit more useful due to its expanded spell list in Spell Compendium, but on its own it's kinda lame.

Shadowdancer has some really cool fluff, but despite it being a logical PrC for rogues, it doesn't advance sneak attack. Apart from summoning shadows and Hide in Plain Sight, a Swordsage can do anything it can do. (Then again the Swordsage has Cloak of Deception.)

Elemental Savant (CArc) is kind of sad. You specialize so much in one energy type that once you encounter something that's immune to it, you have to cry over your spellbook. Not to mention you lose CL.

Well, Fire Elemental Savants can get this one metamagic feat (I don't remember the exact name) from Sandstorm. +1 spell level, critters that are immune to fire still take half damage from fire damage spells. Something for the other elemental types could be homebrewed, I guess.

olentu
2009-08-24, 05:32 AM
Well, Fire Elemental Savants can get this one metamagic feat (I don't remember the exact name) from Sandstorm. +1 spell level, critters that are immune to fire still take half damage from fire damage spells. Something for the other elemental types could be homebrewed, I guess.

I remember the name to be searing spell. There is already a similar one for cold damage it is piercing cold. The difference is that searing spell can damage fire subtype creatures while piercing cold will not allow damage to cold subtype creatures.

Mark Hall
2009-08-24, 08:46 AM
*cough* Dragon Disciple *cough*

Dragon Disciple works great for Hexblades.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 09:10 AM
Blood Magus, Weretouched Master, Reaping Mauler, Reachrunner, Tattooed Monk, Geomancer, Psion Uncarnate.

Any Spellcasting PrC with awesome sounding abilities that actually suck and gimped casting. PrCs tailored for a specific race/class whose abilities make completely null the abilities you've been working on up to that point, and PrCs that can be completely reconstructed on any character using only a fraction of WBL.

Weretouched Master? From the ECS? If it is post-errata, yeah, I agree. Before? It's a great melee class.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 09:30 AM
Geomancer also has a place in a number of cool builds!

Aquillion
2009-08-24, 09:44 AM
..but.. protecting their allies is what a Dwarven Defender is supposed to do.

Well.. ok, not really. What a Dwarven Defender is meant to do is stand in the middle of a 5-10 foot-wide tunnel and bellow "YOU SHALL NOT PASS." And they are, in fairness, pretty good at that. The problem is that's a pretty narrow niche job- it's the kind of thing the elite Ironguard of the Great Underground Dwarven Citadel does. It's not the kind of thing a typical adventurer should be specializing in, which makes a PrC that specializes in it a bad idea.
It's also something that a Wizard can do much more easily with their Wall of XYZ spells.

Congratulations. You've turned your dwarf into a small, ornery wall that the party can take with them and plant in the middle of a battlefield.

Kris Strife
2009-08-24, 09:52 AM
Congratulations. You've turned your dwarf into a small, ornery wall that the party can take with them and plant in the middle of a battlefield.

Leadership, get a lot of Dwarven Defender cohorts. Have them form a box around the squishy ones. There, the class now has a use. :smalltongue:

Cyrion
2009-08-24, 10:02 AM
You get a much shorter list if you ask what PrCs aren't disappointing. Either the payoff or the entry requirements tend to have serious mechanical suckage, even if the flavor is amazing. A lot of that is due to the 3e shift to linear multi-classing instead of simultaneous.

To answer the OP- the mystic theurge, blighter and pretty much any gish combo.

Signmaker
2009-08-24, 10:14 AM
To answer the OP- the mystic theurge, blighter and pretty much any gish combo.

There are a few decent gishes. I believe Jade Phoenix Mage and Abjurant Champion are the big ones.

Alleine
2009-08-24, 10:36 AM
Weretouched Master? From the ECS? If it is post-errata, yeah, I agree. Before? It's a great melee class.

I was thinking along the lines of that no matter which version you choose, you still spend a lot of time building up your shifter abilities only to have them invalidated by the capstone ability of not shifting. All those probably sub-par shifter feats you took because you thought it would be awesome to have a character whose power came from his race? Worthless. The errata? It makes me cry.
I'm not saying as a whole its bad. Bear form? Awesome. It just doesn't do what I expected/hoped. Therefore disappointing.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 10:36 AM
Way more than a few. There's probably 7-8 good gish PrCs, more if you presume text trumps table or you're willing to persist divine power somehow.

KiltedGrappler
2009-08-24, 11:46 AM
I was really disapointed by the Reaping Mauler.

The DC of it's main ability is raised by gaining levels, and it's only a five-level class, making the DC mindlessly weak at higher levels. Add to that the fact that one of it's prereqs is a feat that doesn't work if you are Large or larger, taking away one of the only ways to effectivly grapple giants, dragons and such.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 12:33 PM
I was thinking along the lines of that no matter which version you choose, you still spend a lot of time building up your shifter abilities only to have them invalidated by the capstone ability of not shifting. All those probably sub-par shifter feats you took because you thought it would be awesome to have a character whose power came from his race? Worthless. The errata? It makes me cry.
I'm not saying as a whole its bad. Bear form? Awesome. It just doesn't do what I expected/hoped. Therefore disappointing.

This is why you use Shifter Totemist in tangent with the Weretouched Master. You get the same effects as being a Shifter with all of the feats, and don't lose them when you get the capstone.

lsfreak
2009-08-24, 01:05 PM
The problem is that Dwarven Defenders are built to be a "tank" class, keeping enemies from going from point A to point B (point B being "all the squishies") and instead forcing them to fight the DD. The problem is, in order to keep them from doing that, they have to actually present some sort of threat. DD's as they stand are slightly more of a roadblock than a wooden door in the middle of an empty room (and provide little of the cover that a wooden door would).

EDIT: Whoops, I missed a page :smallredface:

FlawedParadigm
2009-08-24, 01:17 PM
EDIT: Whoops, I missed a page :smallredface:

And yet your point still stands. Absolutely still. Much like a DD.

Glass Mouse
2009-08-24, 03:19 PM
Wouldn't the Dragon Disciple be strong(ish) if focused entirely on combat - like someone else suggested - instead of giving up precious spell progressing? You could probably spare one level to sorcerer, use the low level spells creatively and just smash your way through foes?

Maybe a noob question, but I wonder... :smallsmile:

quick_comment
2009-08-24, 03:24 PM
I remember the name to be searing spell. There is already a similar one for cold damage it is piercing cold. The difference is that searing spell can damage fire subtype creatures while piercing cold will not allow damage to cold subtype creatures.

Lightning and sonic elemental savants can also take born of the three thunders, making all their elemental spells trip and stun the enemies.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-24, 03:28 PM
Wouldn't the Dragon Disciple be strong(ish) if focused entirely on combat - like someone else suggested - instead of giving up precious spell progressing? You could probably spare one level to sorcerer, use the low level spells creatively and just smash your way through foes?

Maybe a noob question, but I wonder... :smallsmile:


But compare what you give up.

If arcane caster then most spells unusable in anything but light armor (twilight/mithral). Add in Spellsword you could go to heavy but that is adding in less DD levels.

Compare in Core Eldritch Knight to revised DD that gave full BAB, had good Reflexes in addition, etc.

EK lets you deal decent damage and cast spells.
Revised DD lets you cast minor low spells (whatever you entered with), but awesome in melee.

Seeing as spells increase in strength exponentially usually: the EK is better over all, but deals less damage/hits less in melee.
But the EK has abilities that let him be untouchable like Didsplacement, G. Invis, etc. He can afford saving spell slots for those buffs because EK will raise spell levels.

So a Revised DD wouldn't be too strong, but just right. The costs/benefits equal out to be balanced.

Mark Hall
2009-08-24, 03:41 PM
Wouldn't the Dragon Disciple be strong(ish) if focused entirely on combat - like someone else suggested - instead of giving up precious spell progressing? You could probably spare one level to sorcerer, use the low level spells creatively and just smash your way through foes?

Maybe a noob question, but I wonder... :smallsmile:

This is why I suggest a hexblade. Most of a Hexblade's goody is pre-10th level. They've got some nice low-level spells, a couple of debuffing options, but, for the most part, they're fighty-types.

Put a Hexblade 5 into Dragon Disciple, and you start getting benefits. More low-level spells, more strength (Strength bonuses cover the 3/4 BAB), natural armor bonuses (covering that you wear lighter armor), and a few nifty abilities.

They're not tearing down the gates of heaven by any means, but they're a nice combo.

Optimystik
2009-08-24, 04:04 PM
+1 to Mindbender.
Anarchic Initiate: "Hey guys, I'm the Wilder PrC that Psions can enter more easily!"
Zerth Cenobite: The only monk that can literally punch someone into next week, but apparently being a master of time doesn't extend to getting reasonable cooldowns.
Green Star Adept: For when you're tired of casting spells... except that was your job...
Entropomancer: Fun if you're roleplaying a nihilist, but pretty damn weak.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-24, 04:46 PM
The true strength of the Blighter, though, is that the easiest way to kill one is to destroy the entire forest, at which point he's useless, but his job is done so he can die in peace. :smalltongue:

Thrawn183
2009-08-24, 04:52 PM
The true strength of the Blighter, though, is that the easiest way to kill one is to destroy the entire forest, at which point he's useless, but his job is done so he can die in peace. :smalltongue:

HAHAHA, hilarious. I'll have to remember that.

Ravens_cry
2009-08-24, 04:57 PM
I am no judge of crunch. How does the Pathfinder Dragon Disciple stack up now?

PId6
2009-08-24, 05:00 PM
I am no judge of crunch. How does the Pathfinder Dragon Disciple stack up now?
Well it actually advances spellcasting, so it's in the "not useless" category. Seems pretty decent, actually, though certainly not top tier since you're losing 9th level spells if you go all the way through with it (with a sorcerer, anyway; wizard shenanigans still works though).

arguskos
2009-08-24, 05:01 PM
I am no judge of crunch. How does the Pathfinder Dragon Disciple stack up now?
Well, somewhat better actually. It's still not amazing, but now it's a 7/10 casting class, so that's good. It's worth taking though, for sure and for certain.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-24, 05:02 PM
Biggest disappointment ever, for me?

Combat Trapsmith in CScn. Such a good idea (really! I build traps in the middle of battle and alter the terrain is so awesome.), but the traps themselves are really really lame, and the class pretty much doesn't get anything else.

I mean, I totally want to do a Wilderness Rogue/Combat Trapsmith, but I'd suck so hard I'd start drawing in planetary bodies with my gravitational pull.


EDIT: On the topic of Dwarven Defenders, the only way I've found to make them really zomgawesome is to go something like Knight 5/Crusader 2/Dwarven Defender 3/Deepstone Sentinel 10.

Draken
2009-08-24, 06:50 PM
Deepstone sentinel is only 5 levels long Fax.

(Not a dip joke, it is indeed, 5 levels long)

Ahem. On to another poor excuse for a PrC.

The Fortune's Friend.

2/5 spellcasting. Poor BAB. d6 HD.

The class features aren't stellar enough for that.

Signmaker
2009-08-24, 06:54 PM
Biggest disappointment ever, for me?

Combat Trapsmith in CScn. Such a good idea (really! I build traps in the middle of battle and alter the terrain is so awesome.), but the traps themselves are really really lame, and the class pretty much doesn't get anything else.

I mean, I totally want to do a Wilderness Rogue/Combat Trapsmith, but I'd suck so hard I'd start drawing in planetary bodies with my gravitational pull.


Agreed, to the point of tears. I sooo wanted to run a Rogue/Trapsmith/CombatTrapsmith for Test of Spite.

Then I realized. Everyone flies.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-24, 07:02 PM
The Fortune's Friend.

2/5 spellcasting. Poor BAB. d6 HD.

The class features aren't stellar enough for that.


True, the capstone is just +5 to attacks for 1/day.

If I redid it:
Lucky Strike would be there at 1st level and increase in use/day as you level (up to 3/day at 5th) or just 1/level.
Move More luck than Skill to 2nd and make it use once per level of the class.
Maybe add an extra spellcasting level.

It wouldn't still be a great class, but much better than currently.

How about the class Montebank:
3/th bab, Reflex good, and advances sneak attack. You gain 4/day 20 ft dimension door (personal only, no others), slippery mind, and capstone is regular DD but uses 2 uses up to use.

Even the Horizon Walker can DD better than it. Quicker too.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-24, 08:12 PM
Deepstone sentinel is only 5 levels long Fax.

(Not a dip joke, it is indeed, 5 levels long)

Serves me right for not actually looking at the book. Perhaps Knight 5/Crusader 2/Dwarven Defender 3/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Dwarven Defender +5?

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 09:20 PM
Serves me right for not actually looking at the book. Perhaps Knight 5/Crusader 2/Dwarven Defender 3/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Dwarven Defender +5?

Crusader +5, not DD. Crusader levels means more maneuvers and better HP (an extra 5/round thanks to Steely Resolve) and a better attack bonus.

Forbiddenwar
2009-08-24, 09:36 PM
On the subject of tweaking some of these disappointing PrCs:
Death Delver with full spellcasting progression and this added ability:

Awaken Dead= Song of awakening conversion:
3rd level:1/day
6th level:2/day
9th level:3/day
Uses Concentration instead of Perform (DC 10+Target HD) to initiate it. If concentration is broken, use is wasted.
Full round Action to activate instead of standard action.
Range is Touch instead of 30 feet.
Dead is Awakened for 1 minute/level (D).
Death Delver levels only determine duration.

Can have multiple awakened dead at a time.

Otherwise functions as Song of awakening on page 44 of the Libris Mortis.

What do you think?

Aquillion
2009-08-24, 09:50 PM
The problem is that Dwarven Defenders are built to be a "tank" class, keeping enemies from going from point A to point B (point B being "all the squishies") and instead forcing them to fight the DD. The problem is, in order to keep them from doing that, they have to actually present some sort of threat. DD's as they stand are slightly more of a roadblock than a wooden door in the middle of an empty room (and provide little of the cover that a wooden door would).Hmm.

Actually, this gives me an interesting idea for a PRC: One whose primary ability lets them provide cover to any allies standing within five feet. At higher levels, it could even provide total cover. You would get to choose when and how this applies, so you can prevent enemies from targeting your ally without blocking your ally's attacks.

Maybe it would even be able to control relative cover for anyone standing within five feet -- so if you're within five feet of an enemy, you can block them from targeting anyone but you; while if you're within five feet of an ally, you can block everyone from targeting them.

At higher levels, anyone who starts their turn adjacent to you could be considered 'covered' (or blocked) by you until the end of their turn, so enemies can't just five foot step back and then target your buddies.

You have to forgo the benefits of cover yourself to use this ability, probably. Other class abilities would let you make quick steps outside of your turn to reach allies and cover them from attacks, and so forth.

Maybe it would be for large creatures only... based around strategically interposing yourself between allies and enemies.

sadi
2009-08-24, 09:57 PM
Dwarven Defenders are pretty useless in an open field. Stick them in a hallway somewhere and they're much better. I've always wondered how quickdraw and some throwing weapons would work for this class.

oxinabox
2009-08-24, 11:18 PM
Actually, this gives me an interesting idea for a PRC: One whose primary ability lets them provide cover to any allies standing within five feet. At higher levels, it could even provide total cover. You would get to choose when and how this applies, so you can prevent enemies from targeting your ally without blocking your ally's attacks.
My heavy infantry (homebrew for a varient d20 system) has sheild wall as a class feature:
Select 2 ajacent squares - swift action to sellect/change at anyhtime during your turn.
Allys, in these squares get +1 AC, this increases to +2 at lvl x+ 3 and +3 at x +6.
A person may be under the effect of Upto 2 sheild wall bonuses at any point in time.
Requirement: you must be using a towersheild.

This means that fighting in formation (esp with multple Heavy infantry), is very beinifical.
And turtal shells: each infantry on edge grants AC to person o nedge next to him. people in middle use Towersheilds ot grant full concealement

Primal Fury
2009-08-25, 10:21 AM
Disapointing PrC's, huh? For me it was the Alienist. I love the idea of gaining mastery over the madness of the far realm, but the way the did that sucked a whole lot of... well you know. Summoning psuedonatural monsters may SOUND cool, but since the template itself is so unimpressive, I hardly see the point of doing that other than for flavor. I'm appauld that they'd think I'd want to trade 2 points of wisdom for a +1 bonus to my saving throws. What about my wisdom based skill checks?! 2 free metamagic feats are nice, though I wish that 7th level one came a little earlier on. And Mad/Insane Certainty are just a slap in the face. Why the HELL would we want to trade 6, count'em 6 more hit points for -6 to all saves against one creature that gets a +6 bonus to it's AC against us?! That goes beyond stupidity. And Transcedance is simply a joke, nothing more.

And just to change things up a bit, I'm going to talk about a PrC I absolutely loved: the Moonspeaker. All round enhanced summoning and shifting, eventual energy immunity, access to wild shape (for those clerics who took the class), expanded spell list, improved natural attacks, and not to mention full divine casting. Sure it may be for only one race, but anyone could tweak that to their hearts desire. And the thought of a "lycan" moonspeaker is just dandy, since you'd just need a humanoid race to add that template to.

Dixieboy
2009-08-27, 07:11 PM
And lo, it doth read below that, "Suck it, clerics. - Druids"

As it was written "No one but wizards and druids can have nice things"

Salvonus
2009-08-27, 07:50 PM
As it was written "No one but wizards and druids can have nice things"

Come, now. All casters get nice things. Druids and Wizards just get even nicer things. :smallwink:

sadi
2009-08-27, 08:00 PM
Wouldn't the Dragon Disciple be strong(ish) if focused entirely on combat - like someone else suggested - instead of giving up precious spell progressing? You could probably spare one level to sorcerer, use the low level spells creatively and just smash your way through foes?

Maybe a noob question, but I wonder... :smallsmile:

I was trying to build something based around the suel arcanamach, since its one of 3 classes that give non casters a caster progression that doesn't include a known spell list of suckage.

Duskblade 2/generic fighter class with full bab or combo thereof 4/suel4/abjurant champion 5/spellsword1/dragon disciple 4/

I'm sure it could be optimized not to suck, it still wouldn't stack up to 95% of gishes but i'd like to see how it works.

Eldariel
2009-08-27, 08:40 PM
Biggest disappointment ever, for me?

Combat Trapsmith in CScn. Such a good idea (really! I build traps in the middle of battle and alter the terrain is so awesome.), but the traps themselves are really really lame, and the class pretty much doesn't get anything else.

I mean, I totally want to do a Wilderness Rogue/Combat Trapsmith, but I'd suck so hard I'd start drawing in planetary bodies with my gravitational pull.

My friend is thinking of Combat Trapsmith in the low magic game we've got; the idea would be that he basically has the devices at a ready and sets them as a standard action. We've come up with the same problem and we're just rewriting the whole trap list, something in accordance to the DMG trap creation list.


As for Dragon Disciple, it's not entirely horrible in a Core-only game (as long as you don't take it full 8 levels) for a melee type since Tripping is just about the best thing you can do in Core melee and Dragon Disciple is just about the only way to get reliable Str increases outside Barbarian, which has to make do with the horribly slow Rage-progression. 2 points of BAB (plus one for the obligatory caster dip to enter) & some HP for +4 Str, +2 Con, +3 natural armor & Blindsense 30' is not at all bad.

You can stop at the 6th-7th level (depending on how much you want that last point of NA; chances are the answer is "not much") as you've gotten all the interesting stuff, or you can even go just for the 4 first levels for +4 Str (but miss out on Blindsense). The bonus spell slots are also nice especially if you've got 2 levels of Sorcerer; you can pack Enlarge Person and True Strike yourself, acquire a Lesser Rod of Quicken eventually, and profit. "True Strike > PA for full" hurts even in Core.

All you need is 11-12 Cha to reasonably use that, and it makes the approach charge not-so-painless even in Core (you can still whack someone for ~70 points, or a few hundred if mounted). Barbarian 8/Sorc 2/Dragon Disciple 4/Barbarian +4/whatever 2 for example works out alright with a decent number of Rage-uses, +10 Str total compared to standard when Raging, ability to Enlarge himself, some nice Will-save buffs, Familiar & random Natural Armor and Attacks. Sure, it's not as pimpy as Horizon Tripper, but it has bigger raw numbers and enough Rage uses to keep using it (hence the 8 levels to start off), and slight self-sufficiency. Oh, and Prestidigitation. Must never forget that. Most importantly, he's still a Humanoid ('cause he didn't take 10 levels of Dragon Disciple) and thus qualifies for Enlarge Person.

That said, yeah, out-of-core when feats suddenly start to become useful and BAB is more beneficial, it becomes even worse. There's always the "extra epic slots"-use of course, but eh, in epic you generally have better things to do.

Dhavaer
2009-08-27, 10:22 PM
I was trying to build something based around the suel arcanamach, since its one of 3 classes that give non casters a caster progression that doesn't include a known spell list of suckage.

Duskblade 2/generic fighter class with full bab or combo thereof 4/suel4/abjurant champion 5/spellsword1/dragon disciple 4/

I'm sure it could be optimized not to suck, it still wouldn't stack up to 95% of gishes but i'd like to see how it works.

I like Warblade 6/Hexblade 2/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Pheonix Mage 6.

Samb
2009-08-27, 10:47 PM
+1 to Mindbender.
Anarchic Initiate: "Hey guys, I'm the Wilder PrC that Psions can enter more easily!"

Umm this is the only psionic PrC that has 10/10 ML advancement. Chaotic surge has a 50% of making your power better, 25% of doing nothing, 25% of nerfing it. AKA it's worth the risk.

A psion with wild surge is just awesome, quite simply the best damn psi-caster around. A wilder might benefit from only a single level dip for chaotic surge however. Wilder1/psion9/anarchic initiate 10 FLOW.

Fortune's Friend....... I really wanted it to be good but its not.

Duelist is another one that I was greatly disappointed with since I am a fencer myself. It's just plain garbage.